The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe - 466: Winn Claybaugh—Hairdressers Rule the World

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Mike sits down with the dean and co-founder of Paul Mitchell Schools to talk about how an industry built on scissors, sinks, and human connection quietly shapes culture, opportunity, and second chances. Known by just about everyone who's met him as relentlessly—and genuinely—nice, Winn shares his improbable journey from former meth addict to one of the most influential educators in beauty, his deep commitment to philanthropy, and the philosophy behind his book Be Nice (or Else!). It's a conversation about redemption, dignity in work, and the unexpected people who end up running the world—one haircut at a time. Today's episode is sponsored by PureTalk.com/Rowe Choose a wireless company who shares YOUR values. NetSuite.com/Mike Download their FREE business guide, Demystifying AI MDriveForMen.com Try Boost and Burn to aid energy, metabolism and fat burning MCSF.org/apply Check your availability and apply today!

So I'm in North Carolina probably four years ago shooting an episode of Dirty Jobs. It's Mike Rowe, by the way, it's the way I heard it. And I realize I need a haircut. It had been like four months. So I go into this salon. It's called Cut. And this woman named Alyssa immediately starts to give me such a weird, sassy, hard time. She's just likable, funny, pretty young girl who was about to go on a break but agreed to stay.

and cut my hair. Did she know you were Mike Roe? She did. She said her dad was a big fan and that he had forced her to watch dirty jobs from time to time growing up. That's the kind of sass I'm talking about. She wasn't really capable of paying me an honest compliment.

But she gave me a pretty good haircut. And during our conversation, I learned that she worked in another salon on the other side of town and that she also was a hostess in a restaurant that her family owned. Three jobs? Three jobs. Wow.

Every day, work in 12, 15-hour days. Wow. And so I wrote about this girl who cut my hair on Facebook, and it was just one of those posts that was shared literally 200,000 times, reached millions, millions of people. Anyhow, flash forward, well, not really yet. The last thing she said to me is, hey, that scholarship thing you're doing, you know. So she's familiar with microworks.

I said, yeah, she goes, it's pretty great. How come you don't have anything for cosmetologists? Don't. And honestly, I had no answer. I was just like, I have no good answer. So I said, ah, you know, let me think about it. And of course, the real reason was I was very focused on the construction trades. The roads, the water, the electricity.

Yes, our infrastructure. And it didn't occur to me that maybe our country was suffering from a lack of good haircuts, you know. But when you start to think about the number of people who work in this industry who make a living cutting hair, I was like, ah, we should maybe do it. It's certainly a skill. Well, it is a skill. Yeah. Well, flashing forward now, this year, we got so many applications for cosmetology schools. Yeah.

That we had to really think seriously about the degree to which we push it because the whole campaign could be overrun with cosmetology. I think it was the fourth. We just went over these numbers, right? It was like the fourth largest cohort of applications or recipients. Right. And so that's great. I've got no complaint with all. of it, it was just, wow, man, I was wrong to not include that from the very beginning.

Because you're talking about really hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who make a living with this skill. Anyway, I got a call, I don't know, eight months ago, a year ago maybe from some guy called Wynn Clayball who wants to book me at some gala for John Paul Mitchell Cosmetology School attendees. Right. Right. And they're not raising money for their school. They raise money for charity, but the students in the schools are a big, big part of this whole thing.

And, you know, Wyn is sort of the guy who built this educational empire with John Paul DeGioria. Anyway, there's a conflict. I can't do it. I politely pass. And apparently this guy starts to stalk me. Sure. It happens. Yeah.

And I wind up sending a video that they can play at their thing, along with my apologies for, you know, not being able to show up. Right. Long story short, I just had lunch with him. He lives down south of here. And, you know, we connected. And he was very grateful for the video. And I was interested in his industry.

And I said, look, next time I'm in town, just, you know, come up. We'll have a bite. Lunch was so good. I was like, look, man, would you come back to my office and just be on an episode of the way I heard it? Mm-hmm. He said, yeah, I'd be honored. So the conversation you're about to hear wasn't really planned.

too much. But I'm going to tell you, it's among the best conversations I've had. It's a good one. It's a real good one. It's staggering. The guy overcame addiction. He's devoted to his mother. He's built a multi-billion dollar brand. He's a big deal. And he couldn't be sweeter. It's just the nicest guy. Bald as can be. Very bald. Yeah. I didn't notice that. For a guy who deals with hair. Exactly. So I think you're going to enjoy every single minute of this conversation. I know that I did. He gave me a copy of a book he wrote 20 years ago. It's called Be Nice or Else. I can't wait to dive into it because it perfectly epitomizes the worldview of, I'm just going to say it, the one and only. Win Clayball, whose acquaintance you will make right after this.

The federal government is not going to close America's skills gap. They have an important role to play for sure, but if we're serious about reinvigorating the skilled trades on a national level, we need more organizations like Skills USA making a real difference on a local level. These guys have been around since 1965, and today they are relevant like never before, with hundreds of chapters in schools all over the country. and hundreds of thousands of students participating and competing every year. Nobody is doing more to train the next generation of skilled workers than Skills USA.

And I'm encouraging you to at least consider being a part of this movement. Skills USA advisors and volunteers aren't just teaching trades. They're launching careers and strengthening the backbone of our country by mentoring the next generation of industry leaders. In high school, you could be among the people. who are making this movement explode. Join the skilled trades movement. Support career and technical education programs through Skills USA. There's no better way to do it. You can volunteer at a local chapter. You can start a chapter in your own town. Or you can just go to their website and see the impact for yourself and see too how easy it is to get involved. Thousands of kids are being introduced to the

trades in a way that's absolutely positively moving the needle. The goal is a million members by 2030. I think it's doable. I'm doing what I can to help them. Learn more at skillsusa.org slash mic. That's skillsusa.org slash mike. I'm talking skills, U.S.S. Skills, U.S.S.S.S.S.S. USA. This exact scenario is why I wanted to do this podcast in the beginning. I mean, we get, you know, we get a lot of people come in here.

Every now and then you find yourself out in the world and you just have an unexpected lunch with an unexpected guy who turned out to be more interesting than I thought he was going to be. And then you say, hey, you want to come by and sit down and do the podcast? And he says, yes. And now here we sit right on the poise of being unforgettable and fascinating. Wow. No pressure.

Lots of pressure. You kidding me? And you paid for lunch. That means I have to deliver even more. You know, it's funny. I was seriously thinking, all right, the first words out of my mouth are going to be, hey, thank you for lunch. You didn't have to do that.

But obviously, you didn't. That's because you drank so much. I couldn't afford the bill. Technically, I mean, I don't even know where to begin with you, man. If Chat, GPT is to believe that all, you're a chronic overachiever. You, I mean, you're just out there everywhere talking about your chosen trade. And your chosen trade appears to be cosmetology. Or at least, is that fair?

Or are you cosmetology adjacent in your current capacity? Well, anything within the process. professional beauty industry, so which is cosmetology, which hairdressers, but it's skincare, it's barbers, it's nail technicians, it's massage therapists, it's all of the above. That's all under your umbrella. That's all under my umbrella in our Palm Mitchell schools. Most of our schools have two, three, four, five courses. So in different states, some states have different licensing between being a hairdresser and a

barber and a skincare therapist and a nail technician. And so, yeah, we offer all kinds of different courses to help people get through that career path and into an incredible, incredible industry. And it really is. And I'm not a hairdresser. So I'm the biggest fan, and I never even went down that path myself. I think we have a fair amount of things in common. I honestly don't know how much you know about me.

But through odd circumstances, I have become one of the people at the grown-up table around the whole skilled trades initiative in this country. I myself was not blessed with an inherent ability to do many of the things that the people my foundation assists are actually quite good at. I feel like you just confessed something similar. That I'm not the smartest person in my company? Yeah, I did. I'm not the prettiest. I'm not the most talented.

And the good news is I don't have to be. Any of those things. Who has to be? I hire the right team. I'm very, very clear about who needs to be a part. part, I know what I'm good at. I know what I'm not good at. And what I'm really good at is helping people be very, very loyal to a company, to a cause, to an organization that's healthy, that's integral. And I believe that all of those things, it doesn't matter what it is that you're selling,

what product or service you're selling. My gosh, if you come from that type of a culture, you're going to attract the best of the best. So you've been with John Paul Mitchell. He's your partner, right? John Paul DeGurie is my partner. Yeah. And, And he was one of the co-founders of the Paul Mitchell hair care product. Well, who's Mitchell? Well, there were two men. So it was John Paul DeGuardia, and he was the sales guy. And then there was a man named Paul Mitchell, who was a hairdresser.

He passed away in 1989 of pancreatic cancer. And so... And then there's this guy, Win Clayball, whose name isn't incorporated into... Not at all. I'm waiting. You're just... See, that's what makes you interesting, man. You're that behind-the-scenes guy.

With no hair. You are hairless. I'm hairless. Well, I don't know that. I mean, there's no hair that I can see. Chuck, to be clear. I think the word is bald. He's bald.

We don't know if he's hairless. What a difference, man. What an important. I would think of a man. Thank God you on Chuck. I mean, he's right now, I guarantee he's making a note. He's like, make him show you his back. It's probably covered with a thick pelt.

Oh, gosh. No, it's not. It's not. Do you guys do waxing? We do that as part of the training. If you're, especially in the skin department. Yeah. pursuing that career, waxing is a big part of that.

When did that happen in our society? When did it occur to us that getting hair removed and using wax to do it might be wise? I have no idea. Can you check chat GPT? Let's, I have no idea when that came up. I mean, if Chuck's remotely curious, he will. I'm just asking because, you know, I was in, where was I? I was in Munich. No, I was in Switzerland. Yeah, in Zurich. I was in Zurich, and I needed a haircut. That's how you were going to say you needed your back waxed and you're telling me a Zurich, worry about. That's not going to be a good story. No, it's worse. Full disclosure.

Wynn offered to come here to the office, to have my haircut, he was going to bring an actual barber or barbarous or stylist with him, to thank me, I guess, for including your industry and our work ethic scholarship program. You're right. And I love free stuff. I love it. I don't really need it. I'm blessed. I can afford most all the things I need. But I just love, I just love when people give me things for free. It's just old, you know, yes, chug. It occurred originally in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia 3,000 to 2000 BCE. To start removing hair. Yes, using wax. Okay, got it. Yeah. Fascinating. You know, the Egyptians really were working through a lot of things. They were ahead of their time, really, when you think about it. Well, anyway, I'm in Zurich, and it's suddenly, I have a very

important meeting with some very important people, and I need a haircut. So I go into something I think it was called finest barbers in Europe. And while I'm there, I see a guy finishing his cut and he lays down and the barber goes over and takes a lid off of, look like a crock pot full of bubbling tar. And he took a couple of cue tips and loaded him up and shoved him up the guy's nose and waited and then pulled him out. And my God. You've had that done, right? Well, I did it as soon as I saw. I didn't want to do it, but it just felt like I just finished my haircut too. And I'm like, well, I'm in Zurich and I don't want to be rude. And I'm all about experiencing things. Taylor was with me. He filmed it, actually. But I'll tell you, man, it makes you think very different about

your own, just, when a man from Zurich who speaks five languages hands you, you the Q-tip that now looks like a porcupine filled with the hair in your nose you didn't even know you had. It just makes you wonder what else is going on on various parts of your body that you can't really monitor. Right. It's a good thing we have those people, right? You promote the trades. We need people who have talent and skill and pay attention to that stuff. Well, I'll tell you this, man, walking through, it was winter when we were over there. And I had never, it's like one of those things you don't know until you correct it, but the amount of cold European air that was flying through my nose, unencumbered by any follicular blockage, was shocking. And I must admit,

if I could do, I should probably do this again. I should make it a thing. But I haven't had my nose wax since. Okay, well, that's when I come. Next time, I'll bring somebody who will do your, not just your nose, we're going to do your ears too, okay? So you say that like you've looked at my ears and determined some work could be done. I am being really kind and have new manners today. You don't have to be. And by the way, you said you like free stuff. So people need to know. I came with gift baskets for you today. I brought you a lot of free Paul Mitchell products. I still don't know exactly what's in them, but I will cherish them. It's good stuff. Really good stuff. The best of the best. I mean, between that and a lunch, honestly, I was hoping for the lunch. But I'll take some Paul Mitchell. I'm sure.

swag. So 25 years, you and John Paul DeGio, have been partners. Yes. Did this whole partnership evolve around the notion of education and schools, or was there, what was the business a quarter century ago? So I started my own salon 40 years ago. And soon after starting my salon, I realized the people that I was interviewing who were graduating from local cosmetology schools to come and work in my salons after spending a year in school way back then we're not at all ready to work and compete in the professional beauty industry and I thought the best way to train them would be to train them myself. And so I opened up my first school and then opened up a second school and what happened was I fell in love with education. To you the truth, I sold my salons and had I, here I am admitting

this, had I not gotten into the school business, meaning into education, I don't think I would still be in the professional beauty industry. So what got me to fall in love with, with hairdressers with this industry was students, education. I love, love, love students. Why? Why do you give it? You know, they have beginners luck, which basically means that they don't know it won't work.

I mean, I can walk into my school with the stupidest idea, and they're like, yeah, let's do it. And I just love that energy. I love that attitude. Like what? Like what's a dumb idea that you wound up incorporating? Anything to do? Okay, philanthropy, you know, fundraising.

Hey, you know, there's a soup kitchen down the street. I think we can make a difference, you know, why don't we have a bake cell? Why don't we do a car wash and raise some money? And, you know, you say that to professionals who are receiving a paycheck. They're like, I ain't going to do that. Students are like, we're going to do it. We're going to do it. And I just love that energy. I love that energy every single day. Where are you from? And what your folks do? And how much of this crazy bottled up passion you figure came from whatever the answer to that is? Born and raised in Southern California. I went to high school in Southern California. But while I was in high school as senior, my parents moved to Utah, and I talked them into letting me stay back.

And so as senior year in high school, not that I really attended, but I was enrolled. And because I barely, and I mean barely graduated from high school, not one day of college and barely graduated from high school. But they let me stay behind, and I had an apartment and a job and a car. But yeah, I got that work ethic from my parents, you know, eight kids in the family. And so we were number six. And so we were raised needing to know how to do everything from cooking to cleaning to our own laundry to gardening to all that. You know, my father was an engineer. Worked for Northrop aircraft.

And so, you know, we were okay, but eight kids is a lot of kids. And I absolutely got that work ethic. You know, I was kind of laughing earlier when you said something along the lines of that I, I don't know, that I hustle or that I used it something that I'm an overachiever or something like that. Yeah, I was that. So, you know, I was like the youngest. And a stalker. Oh, we're going to get to that story. Because you, I didn't find you because you're famous with dirty jobs.

I found you because of your notoriety with the trades. I mean, that's what attracted me to you. But, yeah, I was at overachiever. So I was like the youngest Eagle Scout in that district, you know. Oh, yeah. 13, 14. What's the most important scout law? Oh, gosh, no.

Trustworthy. Trustworthy, exactly. All of those things. And I'm all those things. Yeah, but you must choose. Obedient, cheerful, thrifty praise. You have to choose one? They didn't tell me that.

Yeah, well, guess what? You're at a certain point in your life now. Okay, you know what? Trustworthy. Trustworthy. My word is my word. So, and I think that's important. And I'm kind.

I wrote a book. It's right in front of you. It's right in front of you. It's right in front. It's a, it's a fascinating title. It really is, you found a way to threaten somebody with an exclamation point and some cheery font. Well, you know what's so funny is it was called be nice and Larry King

offered to write the forward for the book and he's like but I want you to call it be nice I couldn't I couldn't sell that it's got to be be nice or else that's that's my Larry King not bad impersonation not bad so he's the one who added the or else part of it and you know but the or else is not a threat it's like be nice or be miserable be nice or be a horrible parent I love stories like this seven years ago a guy named Ben Still was a musician. He had zero interest in running a food company, but he was annoyed that so much imported meat was being deceptively marketed and labeled as domestic and decided to fix the problem. The result was a company called Good Ranchers. It's a completely honest, totally transparent

meat company that deals directly with American farms and ranches and promises to deliver high-quality American-grown meat for a fair price. Today, that promise. And Ben's absolute determination to keep it has not only propelled good ranchers into the top tier of meat delivery companies, it's fueled enormous awareness among meat eaters like me that we have all been affirmatively deceived by policies that allow imported meat to be marketed as domestic. That's the reason I switch to good ranchers. If I'm being honest, though, I doubt that I would have stayed this long had the quality not been so exceptional. Every single cut I've devoured from Good Ranchers has been straight up delicious and every morsel was raised on a small American farm or ranch.

Give them a try. Subscriptions are affordable and flexible. In fact, if you start your plan today, you'll get free meat for life and $40 off your first order. Just use code mic at good ranchers.com. Free meat for life, 40 bucks off your first order. Good Ranchers.com. American meat delivered. If you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch, get good ranchers now. Hey-haw! Well, it's basically consequences. It's not you threatening to come by with a club and beat some sense into them. Although he did say in his foreword, do this or I'll kill you.

And people are like, he did it, read the forward. People are you going to edit that? I'm like, no, I'm not going to edit that. Larry wrote that. That's a good thing. How did you meet Larry Kigg? You know, his wife, which I think was wife number six, His wife, that's funny.

I know, I know. I grew up with her. She was a good friend of mine, and then what happened was a modern salam. I started my own podcast 30 years ago, so the term podcast didn't even exist. And so my interviews went out once a month on a cassette tape. You might have to explain to people what that even is. Well, I think instead I'll just explain to people that what you've been doing is this a kind of love letter to philanthropy.

The podcast is called Masters. And you had some pretty famous. people on, but you really don't get into anything other than why they give a damn and what they do with their fortunes in many cases or what they were doing before they had a fortune. And that's, you know, shame on me for not knowing about it, but once I realized you were a stalker who had means and actually did find me, I did poke around and I did listen to you. It was Vidal Sassoon, your very first one. Very first one.

And you still have that out. Like people can go listen to that. Oh, absolutely. I re-release them. So I have a pretty incredible library going back 30 years, and a lot of these people aren't even alive today, including Vidal Sassoon. So to be able to have Betty White and a few others.

And I guess Larry King. Larry King and Fran Dresher and Marie Osmond. But as you and I were talking at lunch, my purpose in interviewing these major celebrities was not about their entertainment career. It was about their philanthropy work. It was Children's Miracle Network Hospitals is that baby of Marie Osmond. And that's what I want to know about.

Why would you start that? I mean, I'm just going to say this out loud, Chuck, so you can make a note. But he's going to hook us up. I want to talk to Marie. Oh, okay. I met Marie in 1991 when she came on the QVC cable shopping channel. She had a line of dolls. And you know my whole history with dolls, Chuck.

Unfortunately, I do. Porcelain, inflatable, and otherwise. Oh, my. But here's the thing about Marie. She is given, we're raised, for Children's Miracle Network. Guess, how much money would you think she's raised? And remember, she's Marie Osmond. Yeah, she gets around.

Yeah, she could raise some money up, sure. A couple hundred million, maybe? More. A billion. Tell them one. Nine billion. Nine billion? Is that the craziest freaking thing?

They have raised $9 billion, which supports 170 hospitals. and 10 million children a year go into a children's miracle network hospital. So we all know about St. Jude, which is like what, are they even in that network? Is that one of? They're not in the same network, but St. Jews is one hospital,

and they do incredible work. But this amazing mission that Maria's been on for years. And that's what, of course, I'm drawn to somebody's music and their talent and their shows and their movies and everything. But actually, my mom said that how she got me to eat breakfast when I was a little kid, was to tell me that that's what Walt Disney ate for breakfast. So I was always attracted to celebrities and famous people who did good things with their fame and with their money.

Because there's a lot of famous people. Let's talk about it. You don't care what they have to say. Very true. But I'm not sure how you're going to make the link between Walt Disney's philanthropy and bacon and eggs or grits or whatever. Like where's the breakfast connection to good... To do what my heroes were doing. Yeah, but my heroes were, again, celebrities who were doing good things with their money and with their celebrity and their fame. So that was my draw to Larry King with the Larry King Cartia Foundation. My draw to Magic Johnson and the incredible work that he does with his foundation,

Fran Drescher and Cancer Schmancer and Betty White with Morris Animal Foundation. You know, my gosh, everything to do with animals. So working with Betty White was just, you know, best day of my life. I think I was telling you at lunch, you know, on the video we shot together, she called me a slut, and that was the best day of my life. You got to feel good about that, man. Coming from maybe the most famous slut of the 70s, Sue Ann Nivens, passing that on to you. You know, somebody said something so nice about my mom. Actually, I think it was me.

But she, my mom wrote every day for 60 years before she got a bestseller, and now she's got like four of them. 87. And she's kind of occupied this weird role of America's grandmother, I've heard, but it's really like Irma Bombbeck meets Betty White. Okay. Well. And so, I mean, tell me about, I don't even know where to go with you. It's just so schizophrenic. Betty's so interesting to me, but still with Larry. Like, what don't people know about that guy that you would like them to remember? I mean, think about who this man was. And who he sat across from, who he got to interview. And actually, so how I got connected was Modern Salam magazine, an industry magazine,

called me the Larry King of the Beauty Industry. And Larry read that and called me up and said, you need to come to my house so I can teach you how to be a Larry King, which was wonderful. Just out of the blue, he calls you because he sees you referred to as Larry King of the beauty industry. That is so interesting. Why would he do that? To make sure that I was representing him well, I guess. I don't know. So I did go out and tell you the truth, we actually sat in his bedroom.

And that's where he sat down and tutored me and gave me some pointers on how to interview people. And it was, it was incredible. Like what? What was the best bit of advice he gave? Oh, he says, I told you, like I have all these notes sitting in front of me that I over-prepure. Whether I'm interviewing somebody, I over-preprepare. And now you're interviewing me. And what he said...

I'm not over-prepared with. Oh, well, you've got a talent and a skill here that I hope to have. I have my approach. You have your. Well, what Larry says was never assumed that you got the final answer. So he said, just show up with one question. And that one question can lead you a second and a third and a fourth and go down all kinds of different paths and journeys based on that one question that you asked. So just keep on...

Whereas probably when I interviewed Vidal-S-S-S-soon, I probably asked the... the first question that I had scripted and he answered it and probably wanted to expand it. I said, no, we have to go on to the second question. I don't know, but. Look, that's the old, you know, the biggest enemy of a good plan is a perfect plan. Okay. And look, if you want to conduct an interview, sure, there are a couple different ways to do it. If you want to have a conversation, there's only one.

Right. Two ears, one mouth. Right. You know, and my Larry King's story, I did a show a couple times, the first time I was on, He was, I mean, it was odd. You know, dirty jobs had just been a hit. And we were just kind of feeling each other out. We got through the first segment.

And during the commercial, he's like, he's like looking at notes and stuff and talking to people in the control room. And he looks at me, he says, you like baseball? And I said, yeah, man, I like baseball. He goes, Dodgers. I said, no, I'm an Orioles guy. He goes, Mike Quayar, Boog Pal, Mark Blanger, Bobby Gritch, Jim. Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Merv Retman, Paul Blair, Andy Etche-Baron. What do you mean you're a fan?

To what degree? And I'm like, oh, well, I know all these cats. And, you know, my grandmother was the biggest Orioles fan ever. Larry and I start having a completely unscripted conversation during a commercial break. Okay. But with so much enthusiasm that he just completely misses his cue to come back. So now we're back live. And he's still talking about it.

He's going on and on about Dave McDally hitting a Grand Slam home run in 1969. He was a pitcher for crying out loud. Mike, you know how weird that is for a pitcher to hit a home run, much less a grand slam? And I'm like, Larry, man, we're back on the air. Oh, welcome back. We're talking about baseball with Mike Rowe. Dirty jobs. Gone.

Right. He's gone. But I learned a lot from him just from watching. And he did the nicest thing for me when he decided to, retire, he told his boss, if he had a brain in his head, the job would be mine. Get Mike. Wow. Didn't work out, obviously. They didn't even ask. But Larry King gave me an incredible... Dang, that's pretty incredible. Ridiculous. And I only saw him once again after that. He interviewed me in his, I guess in his home where he was doing his final episodes. But talk about a guy who was doing what he was

supposed to be doing. You know? Are you doing what you're supposed to be doing? Yeah, I believe that I am. That's how I feel every day. I'm 66. I wake out of, jump out of bed at 4 a.m. every day with incredible purpose. I wake up two minutes before the alarm goes off.

Yeah, so I feel like I am. Because I landed in an industry where I have that opportunity to truly make a difference. You know, hairdressers rule this planet. and I have thousands reasons of why I believe that that's true. Well, let's go ahead and start somewhere near the top of the list. I doubt we'll get to a thousand, but that's a bold claim. Hairdressers rule the planet. How so? Well, as I said, I'm not a hairdresser. I've never been a hairdresser.

Actually, I was the youngest recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award from the North American Hairdressing Association, so go figure. You know, again, that overachiever again, right? Not even a hairdresser. but okay, well, we'll go back to Betty White. You know, so here I'm working with all these Palm Mitchell schools. We want to make a difference. We're raising millions of dollars.

And we wanted something that benefited animals. You know, so we were trying to check every box, and I don't mean it that coldly, you know, check the box of something for veterans and first responders, something for in the fight against sex trafficking, something in the, along with children's hospitals. Well, we hadn't done anything with animal. animal health or rescue. And somebody brought up, you know, well, you know, Betty White is the president of this organization called Morris Animal Foundation. Go get Betty White. So that was the conversation, you know, who can get to Betty White, you know, well, I'll call her manager. I'll call her agent. I'll call her. And I'm like, I'll call her freaking hairdresser. Right. They all came up empty. I had the hairdresser on the phone because, again, I know everybody in the professional beauty industry. And literally within a week, I had Betty White on the phone. And And she said, yeah, absolutely. And we then shot a video together and did several events together over a period of number of years,

you know, donated over a million dollars to that cause and that organization through the fundraising that the Palm Mitchell schools had done. And exactly at the same time, same thing with Dolly Parton. Somebody said, you know, we love imagination library, the fact that she's putting books into the hands of these marginalized kids, kids who are underserved. you know, who can get to Dolly Parton, win, call her hairdresser. Okay, same thing. Now, how did you know who her hairdresser was? The beauty industry is very, very small when it comes to that. Not only that, the beauty industry is very, very generous.

I have friends that work in other industries who say that the higher up they go, the more disillusioned they are by what they find at the top, that people at the top maybe aren't generous and they don't want to share their trade secrets and they don't want to mentor that next generation, and don't steal my position. And the professional beauty industry is the exact opposite. You know, the people who are at the top, whether it's a Vidal Sassoon or a John Paul DeGrory

or some famous hairdresser, and I know most of them, yeah. You call them and say, hey, I have a brand new student who's struggling in school. Would you please get on the phone? I'll do it right now. And they'll get on the phone and they'll be on the phone for hours. And that's not just pie in the sky. That's a legitimate thing that happens on a regular basis,

which is why I fell in love with the beauty industry that many years ago and I'm still its biggest fan. Well, people are still raving, raving, I tell you, about my mother's performance in the latest Pure Talk commercial. And if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to give it a look on my Facebook page and read the comments. They're hysterical. In this commercial, you'll not only see Peggy Rowe gently criticizing her oldest son for his longstanding. and well-established commitment issues. You'll learn about the latest offer from Pure Talk, which includes unlimited talk, text, and data

for just $34.99 a month, with no contracts and no commitments of any kind. You can see why I love these guys. If, on the other hand, you have better things to do with your time, then watch my mom and me be impossibly charming together, then allow me to remind you, here, without all the cleverness and charm, that unlimited talk text and data

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Do what my mom did. Get yourself unlimited high-speed data for just 3499 a month At puretalk.com slash row, you can switch in as little as 10 minutes at puretalk.com slash row. Pure talk. How many people are providing for their families today as the result of mastering this skill? I'm glad that you ask that because that's what people, that's what I want people to know,

that usually the people who are attracted to the professional beauty industry, Not always, but the majority of them, majority are women. A lot of them could be the breadwinners for their family, whether it is they're a single mom. So for them to be able to have that flexibility, first of all, they don't have the opportunity to maybe invest in a four-year university and go into that debt and have that educational opportunity or educational experience. So for them to be able to have the experience within our industry and within a year or less, they're through school. And then once they graduate, you know, they say have scissors will travel. Sure. Yeah.

So you don't work anywhere. And, but for them to have the flexibility to be able to say, well, I'm going to work from nine to three. I need to be home at three o'clock for my kids. I need to have the flexibility with that. Huge big advantage for the professional beauty industry. And so, yeah, we attract that. You know where I came from?

No. Are you old enough to remember Paladin? No. Yeah. Well, maybe not. Wait, I'm older than you, aren't I? Yeah, a couple years. Boy, he said that pretty freely, didn't he?

Yeah, you are older than me. Paladin was a TV show on in the, I guess it was the 60s. But it was called Have Gun, Will Trow. Okay. So some clever person in your industry. Did some scissors on it. Basically plagiarized an old hit show. Well, I was recently at a big hair show,

big convention and I was there as a speaker. You mean a show for people with big hair or a large hair show? I said clarify, large hair show. So lots and lots of hairdressers attending this educational event and I was a speaker. So before I went on stage, they were like, hey, when we want to introduce you to somebody? So they take me down in the hall. They take me into this classroom. It was a hands-on classroom for hair cutting.

So you walk in and there's a hundred mannequin heads all set up, you know, ready to be used for this class. Class hadn't started yet. They take me to the very front of the class. introduce me to this hairdresser. She's 85 years old, been doing hair since she was 14 years old, right? But first of all, there she is, still at the front of the class, still engaged. I mean, I know some 18-year-olds who already know it all. Sure. So here's this 85-year-old woman's, like, still engage in love with the professional beauty industry. And I had this conversation. I mean, not only did she raise all of her kids, you know, she had said she had several grandchildren who

are now hairdressers and now they're raising their feet. And now they're raising their family. families, they're the breadwinners and they love their careers and have the financial resources to love life and to be entrepreneurs to go out on their own. It was just this phenomenal story that she had because this many years as a hairdresser built this empire with her family all based on hairdressing. How much of what you do is focused on debunking or challenging stereotypes or stigmas or myths or misperceptions around the industry. And as you think about your answer, I'm asking because I know that a lot of vocational skills have been used as cautionary tales. Right. Right. Go here, borrow this, do that, or else you're going to wind up turning a wrench or welding or cut

with somebody's hair. Right. Is that a thing in your world? It is a thing. I think it's always been a thing, but the good news is that's turning around. You know, hairdressers are put on a on a pedestal. They can become celebrities in their own right. And so, you know, that is good news that has happened. But I think we will always, anybody in the trade is going to have that stigma that we have to battle. But okay. So how do you battle it? Like, are the facts on your side? Like if we talk about what a person can, like, is it a money thing? Is it a flexibility thing? Like, what does the industry most offer that you think is most for sale? You know, you could probably answer this better than I can, but, you know, I think it was, you're raised to believe you're going to go to college. That's the

golden ticket. You're going to go to college, and that's what your parents wish for you. You know, I always had this philosophy about why I love students coming into cosmetology, coming to one of my schools. You know, again, if you choose a four-year college, mom and dad, hey, mom, I'm going to college. Good for you. You know, by the way, mom and dad, I'm going to party for the first three years. I'm going to blow through your money. I'm going to change my mind about 20 times and change my degree.

And mom and dad are still like, good for you, good for you. You made the right choice. Mom and dad, I want to be a hairdresser. That's not necessarily good news for mom and dad. And so oftentimes when students sign up from my school, and again, it's not always, but this can be the case on occasion that mom and dad are not supportive of that. And so these students that sign up for my school, they have a lot to overcome. They have a lot of naysayers, including sometimes mom and dad and friends and families who are trying to talk them out of their fantasy, not because

they're trying to, they think that they're giving good advice, you know, choose differently. So not only do they have to prove a bunch of people wrong that, yes, I did make the right decision to do this, but they have to do it. They don't have four years to prove it. They've got to do it in a year or less. And that also means that maybe they're not there with mom and dad's financial support. So we already know they're not there with mom and dad's vote of confidence and moral support. Sometimes it's without mom and dad's financial support as well. So when I have a student in my school, man, they are focused. They are serious. They are engaged. And I think you read any book on how to be successful, every book is going to teach you, follow your heart. You show me one hairdresser, one barber that was not following their heart. They chose this because they have a passion for this. And some of them, since they were little kids, this is what they want to do. You know, after COVID, you know how many second and third career people signed up for our schools?

That was my next question, actually. Well, because they, that mass exodus that everybody talked about, You know, I hated that job. There's no way. You know, I see that COVID was like God sent everybody to the room. You know, go to your room, take a time out. And when people came out of that timeout, they're like, I'm not going back to that career. I hated that job.

I hated my life. You know, in the beauty industry, I don't know too many hairdressers that don't love their life. Monday through Friday. They say hairdressers go to work every single day with the intention of having fun. I don't know too many people who have that belief system, who have that sentiment. And so. Do you remember the movie of Shampoo? Of course, love that.

See, so you are old enough to remember Paladin. A little bit. Yeah. No, that, you know, I watched that a few years ago, actually. Shampoo? Yeah, it was in the middle of the night, clicking around. I'm watching that thing. And one of the questions that I asked myself at the time was,

it's so interesting the bond that forms between a hairdresser and the customer. and how quickly it deepens and how panicky a customer gets when their hairdresser is going to be away for two weeks and there's an event coming up. You know, it's easy to poke a little bit of fun at that because, look, full disclosure, I'm the guy who bought the floby in 1988. Please tell me you didn't. Look, dude, you're bald. I'm not going to take any crap from you, but I'm telling you, I literally bought the floby because I am cheap. And when I realized the floby wasn't really doing the job, I went back to my guy Frank, who flew a bomber in the Korean War, and he had a little barbershop where people actually sang and there were nudies up on the wall. And I sat there for $4 and he cut my hair. So you're talking to a guy who never assigned much value.

I'm full disclosure. But much later in my life, when I wrote that Facebook post about that woman who cut up. my hair in North Carolina, who gave me so much crap. She was so sassy. And she had three jobs. And that really did make me think differently about, you know, the importance of that trade. So we started offering those scholarships through our program. And I think, if I got the timeline right, that's roughly when you started stalking me. Pretty much. Yeah. Pretty much because, yeah, I love this industry. And I want more heroes to back up the message that I've been delirious. that I've been sharing.

I love that. Hairdressers do incredible things on the planet. But to answer the question, why this incredible relationship between clients and their hairdresser, I mean, look at it this way. It's cradle to grave. You know, there's, well, there's a brand new baby, and it's the kids, you know, I mean, I've got a book with my first curl that my mom took me to a hairdresser, and they, you know, sniffed it off and it's still there.

so I had proof that I had hair at one day. You know, and then it's the toddler's first haircut, and then it's the prom, and then it's the wedding, the most important day of your life, who needs to be there, your hairdresser. And then there are all kinds of different monumental events that happen, and then it's the funeral.

You know, my brother, who became a hairdresser, who went to my school, you know, he was the one that did my mom's hair, you know, two years ago. Yeah, oh, she passed two years ago? She passed two years ago, at 90s. Which, by the way, I love it that you, I love it that you interview your mom for your podcast. That one, that one really warmed my heart. So good for you.

Well, you're a good son. I am a mama's boy. I unapologetically. I will shout that from the rooftops. I make no apologies for it. But I think it's terrific that you, she was 96. Yeah, yeah. You know Danny DeVito worked in a salon?

I knew he was a hairdresser. So was Fran Dresher. There's several that were hairdressers, yeah. Yeah. And Danny actually wound up being hired in the local mortuary to take care of those clients. I wonder, I mean, is there an element of like the bartender slash confessor? You know, I mean, like to do people seem to really confide in their hair? There's absolutely that.

In fact, I have a friend who's a psychiatrist who's a psychiatrist. who says that he really got into the professional beauty industry, meaning he wanted to do research and come and do trainings and be connected because he had a client who was on his couch, whatever, and he was giving him advice. And he said, I better ask my hairdresser about this advice, meaning he was going to take his hairdresser's advice over his psychiatrist's advice. So he thought, you know, I need to connect more with hairdressers

to find why are they more trustworthy or trusted? than I am. Well, because you're inherently trusting them from the jump. And look, we can assign whatever value we want to our appearance, but obviously in this society, that assignation is significant. So you're already trusting them with a part of your vanity, a part of your identity. Okay. And as time goes on, the hair keeps growing, man.

Right. It's so interesting. It just keeps coming back. In your nose and your ears. Everywhere. Everywhere. And so now suddenly it's like a little trim is not enough. I need wax.

Bring in the wax, man. There's another reason for that, though. So it's not just, yes, it's the trust and your vanity, as you just said, is in their hands. But they're touching you. Yes. So, I mean, there's not too many professions where you touch your customers. I mean, doctors touch their customers, but you don't love it. Yeah, you don't love it when they touch you.

Bad touch. And also. isn't it, you know, sharp objects around your eyes and your face? Trust. Trust. Trust. Do do do do do do do do do. Dumb. Is it weird to love people but despise human resources?

If so, well, color me weird. It's not to say I don't respect the millions of people who work in HR departments and companies all over the country. I do. It's just that I don't envy him. That's why MicroWorks doesn't have an HR department for better or worse. And it's also why I use ZipRecruiter whenever we need to expand. ZipRecruiter has proven themselves a million times over by helping countless employers get through the hiring process faster and more effectively than ever before.

And now they have a new feature that instantly shows you the most interested, the most passionate, and the most qualified candidates first. This is a huge time saver, hours and hours of save time. and it helps people like me find the people who can function in a non-traditional work environment like microworks. In other words, ZipRecruiter works for me, and they'll probably work for you too. Post a job for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash row. And watch what happens. Odds are you'll find a human resource that just happens to be a great fit for your company in 24 hours or less.

ZipRecruiter.com slash row. ZipRecruiter.com slash row. The smartest way to hire. About when a hairdresser or a skin therapist or a nail technician, even with a nail technician, I mean, with a hairdresser, they're standing behind you and they're looking at you through the mirror. Yeah, they'll spin you around and they'll be face to face with you. But imagine a nail technician. You're sitting that close to them.

They're holding your hand and you're inches away from their face having this conversation. That's a pretty intimate relationship. So of course there's a lot of trust building. And you better believe that's part of the training that they receive in Palm Mitchell's my next question. Well, how do you do that? How do you, you know, you got a room full of people. I'm assuming the preponderance are female.

The majority. You know, we get a lot of, we have a lot of students who are male. You know, sometimes especially in the barbering business, might attract more male than female, not that we don't have female barbers who are going through our school. and I know some very, very famous female barbers who do incredibly well. What's actually the difference between a hair stylist? It's a different license and it's also different services. So barbers don't necessarily do hair color.

You know, barbers are doing, you know, shaves and other services that they provide that hairdressers are not providing. So there is some crossover in the service that they provide. I'm interested, too, in the licensure, in the certificate. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I've seen some certifications that seem like they might be barriers, you know, certain like braiding operations I've read about in the South in particular,

right, with women of color. Right. You know, they can make a good living doing this and they're good at it, but the state of Georgia wants 20 grand or whatever they want. Right. Right. So, I mean, your world, you're, you're operating in states where certifications are required and you're training people and you can't

do what you do without the training. So where do you, how do you think about where the line ought to be drawn between your job of training, a competent tradesperson in this vocation with entrepreneurship and the right to work and an opportunity in general? I think there's a safety and sanitation element that we need to consider. And so, you know, people who are not receiving legitimate training, and that's not even considered nor required. I think that that can put the public at risk if they're not trained to use proper tools and sanitation and all of that stuff. But yeah, our industry has been known to carve out certain sectors, you know,

so maybe it's for braiding where you don't really need a license for that. Of course, I'm not saying that you don't need it because I don't know. I know who knows, but I don't know. Right. And it's different from state to state. Should hairdressers receive that training and be regulated and have certification and required training in certain aspects of it? Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. Okay. How many, if you had to guess over 25 years, has John Paul Mitchell trained? Well, you know, gosh, it's in the hundreds of thousands. And yet, we enroll between 10 to 12,000 students a year between our Paul Mitchell schools. And we're just one brand. there's other amazing brands out there. We're the largest in cosmetology and barbering education.

But that's quite a few. But still, even though we're graduating that many, the last time I heard, you told me that facts don't matter and I could just make stuff up. I did say that, but I didn't mean it, Matt. To not let the truth get in the way of making a good point here. No, I recently, so somebody could, you know, checks over here he'll say what did he just say that's not true no i heard that 89,000 salon

positioned went unfilled last year wow and and statistically over the next 10 years there's a 7% increase in opportunity growth opportunity job opportunity within the professional beauty industry which is higher than a lot of professions that's amazing yeah well i mean look people check i have data on that one I've got it right here, dude. I'm putting in it right now, yeah. I got it. Well, minutes before we started rolling, I asked Wynn,

what could a decent stylist with a decent work ethic expect to hit the ground earning? You know, and, you know, you were like, well, look, I don't have an exact answer, and you clearly wanted one, so you called some guy named Ryan,

who happens to have your last name. Is he your nephew? He's my nephew. Again, I'm surrounded by people smarter than me. Even from my own family. So that's good news. So Ryan's answer, I think, was super interesting. He said, based on the data, it's looking like a person could earn high 50s, mid-60s, working 27 hours a week.

That's the interesting part to me in 2025. I think blue collar and white collar are over. I think the color of collars is just bullshit, honestly. Thankfully. And I think the 40-hour work week is gone too. People need to make a living based on the time they have, the skills they possess, and whatever the market will give in between. And it feels like that's what your industry can do. You want to work 27 hours a week?

You want to work 18? You want to work 60? I mean, obviously, I can double 60 if I double 27 and say, you can be making an easy six figures if you're working full-time in your industry. industry right out of school. And the good news is there's no ceiling. There's no like haircut price policers that are out there saying, sorry, you're charging too much for your haircut. Except for the market. Right. You're right. We're here in LA and maybe that's a little different. I can give you names of hairdressers who are charging $1,500 for a haircut and they're booked weeks and months in advance. Yeah. And guess who decided that they wanted to charge that much? They did. And nobody ever said,

no, you can't do that. Well, I mean, supply does have a way of finding demand and vice versa. So, yes, there's a market for $1,500 haircuts. Most people listening don't understand that and will probably kind of gofall a little bit. But it's a market, and it's real. Well, can I tell you something? I'm actually in the pet grooming industry as well. You cast a wide net, brother.

I know, I told you that. Overachiever. You know, when I was a drug addict, I was a really good drug addict. I was a good one. I'm an overachiever. How bad did it have you? For about five years. Yeah?

Yeah. What was your drug of choice? Meth. Really? Wow. How long ago are we talking? I've been clean 23 years. Wow.

Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. Couldn't have been easy. No, not at all. I'm grateful. I'm sorry. super, super grateful that that is my story because I know that because I do have a bit of a stage

in a platform that by being transparent that my story does help people and save people. And you share that? All the time. I didn't know. Forgive me because unlike you, I don't have a page full of notes in front of me. I'm interviewing you, man. I'm the one that's like, I'll provide notes for you next time. I can't believe you have notes about me. It says Mike Rowe at the top of your page. Like you researched me. in order to be interviewed. Well, that's how I found about that you interviewed your mom. And that was another reason we're like, you know, I like this guy.

Because I had an amazing mom, you know, and we all need amazing moms. But there came a time in my life where I knew that my mom needed an amazing son, you know. When was that time? About 23 years ago? Before that, actually, before that. And, you know, my mom was my date to everything. Everybody's like, you know, Betty White's sitting over there. Why don't you put yourself at Betty White's table or Dolly Parton's table?

Because I'm with my mom at my table. I love that. And even at, you know, 95 years old, you know, she'd fly home after an event with me and my siblings would call me up and say, don't, you know, mom, that was it. That was her last trip. And I'd call her next year. Mom want to go? Yep, I'm ready to go. What was your name?

Gene. Yeah, amazing lady. And by the way, I talked to her when I first got into business 40 years ago. I was a year in business and I talked to her into quitting her job. She had a job. She was a circulation manager at a local newspaper. And I talked to her to quitting that job and coming to work with me. And they get this.

So my mom at probably like 85, she leaves me this voice message. You know, son, I really need to talk to you. She's never left me that message. I'm like, mom, what, what is going on? Well, you know, I don't know. I've been thinking, maybe it's time for me to retire. Mom, you can retire. You know, and my siblings, they're all jealous that I got to have that relationship with my mom.

They all got to experience mom as this amazing mom, and she was, but I got to experience her as this incredible businesswoman that was just alive with culture. What did she do for you exactly on the business side? Financial aid, so she helped, you know, the students. But she was like the mom in the school. You know, she was the grandma in the school that my students could rely on. because the majority of my students were from out of state. So they had moved to attend my school.

So they were on their own without their parents. And so, yes, that was the lady who helped them finance and pay for their school and make their monthly payments on their education. But she was that beautiful culture. You know, she taught me about how a culture could really, really turn a business around. You know, a lot of cultures are very, very toxic. And it's just, I'm here for one thing, and that's just to get a paycheck. You're not going to get the best out of me.

I'm here. You've engaged my time, but you haven't engaged my heart. You haven't engaged my loyalty. And my mom taught me otherwise. Did she learn that, though, from prior business? Because, I mean, how do you learn that from running a circulation department? She learned that from just being a wonderful human. You know, she just knew to engage people.

She just, you're going to get me emotional here. Well, look, all right. Look, I'll just in the spirit of violence. Am I going to make you uncomfortable if I start crying here? I like a baby man. Because I do that all the time. I don't care. Thank you.

No, my mom, I didn't appreciate the significance of this when I saw it. But like I said to it, she wrote every day for 60 years. Right. And what she wrote about was engagement. She wrote about people. So she can just be out. And she was a horse nut and she'd see a cop on a horse. It's like, cops on horses.

It's amazing. And she'd walk up and, you know, she'd identify the horse and correctly guess its number of hands and wait and so forth. And a cop would be interested. And next thing you know, the cop gets off the horse and my mom's interviewing. Right. And so she goes home and she writes 800 words on the cop she met on a horseback. I love this. It gets better.

There's no publisher. There's no audience per se. So what she does, she just puts it on the refrigerator, like on a magnet. And the next day, my dad takes it down and reads to me and my brother. my mom's latest story. Then he takes it to church. He'll read it at church. You're stuck in the elevator.

He'll read it to you. You're a stranger. And then you sit at Bob's big boy, just trying to have a meal and some guy, my dad, walks over. Hey, have you heard the latest from Peggy Row? And he reads him. So I grew up watching my dad read stories

that my mom had written in a totally unsolicited way. Simply because she was just curious. Right. So, you know, and my mom was ever in business. she taught special ed. She didn't know anything about business, but man,

did she understand what Gene understood. You know, if you're curious about people, they'll be curious about you. And then maybe you have a basis for something, not an interview, the conversation. And to me, that's a successful,

healthy culture for profit. Seriously. If more bosses learned what your mom taught about how to engage people, like I remember a salon owner telling me a story that he hired this nail guru within the beauty industry to teach him, you know, my hairdresser's making money. My nail department doesn't make any money. She's like, I'll fly up and spend the day with you and we'll figure this out. So he's giving

her a tour and they're in the hair department and he's going up to every hairdresser. He knows them by name. He knows their kids' names. How is the vacation to Hawaii, you know, is your, is your husband recovering from that back surgery, right? Goes into the nail department. Doesn't know their names, knows nothing about them. And she's like, that's the reason why you're not engaged with your team. So that's what your mom taught. Just be curious, be curious and talk to people and engage with people. She didn't teach it.

She just lived it. Well, that's teaching. That's a good answer. Three ways you teach people. By example, by example, by example, by example. For example. No, there you go. Did your mom understand?

and maybe your daughter, you mentioned over lunch, Sophia was it? Sophia. You built a multi-billion-dollar brand over the things we're talking about now, over curiosity, over connection, over trust, over have scissors, we'll travel. Did they understand that when you were doing it, like the enormity of it?

I typically don't talk too much about money on this show, But it is important, I think, for people to understand that you killed it, dude. Like, I mean, you built something marvelous. If you asked me about 90% of my industry and my company, I don't have the answer. I would have to ask somebody, like I called Ryan. Yeah, poor Ryan. Yeah, exactly. Again, I told you my favorite answer is, I don't know, but I know who knows.

my point is what I do know about is the importance of culture, the foundational. John Paul, my amazing partner, I mean, they couldn't even pay their own bills, he tells the story. He couldn't even pay his own bills yet for running the company, but we'll tell story after story of how they use their power and their influence to maybe pick up the check for a struggling mother who is there with all of her kids and can't pay his own bills, but he's going to pick up their check. And so it was just part of their philosophy. I know a lot of businesses that once they get down that line, down that road of, oh, we're profitable, but we haven't done a damn thing and make a difference. You know, we're consumers only.

We consume, we consume oxygen, we consume trees, we consume the paychecks of our customers, but we've done nothing to be a contributor. You know, the Palmichael product company, and that's how we started the Palm Mitchell schools, too. We're going to start with culture. We don't have a cutting curriculum. no idea how we're going to teach you how to cut hair, but we're going to teach you how to be a good human being. We're going to teach you the value of being nice and of communication and then treating each other with respect. And like all of that was far more important to us. And I, you know, maybe I'm taking a risk in saying this, but I'm pretty confident in saying, and if you ask any

of my graduates, ask the 100,000 graduates of my schools, of course they'll brag. Yeah, I learned how to cut hair, but what I really loved about that school was the culture. That's what they're going to say. My guest today, Tom Albanyce, is an American Giant, and I'll tell you why. Tom understands on a fundamental level that the business of mining is a non-negotiable prerequisite of our civilization and our economic independence, just like the business of making things. American Giant knows this, which is why they committed themselves 16 years ago to make all their excellent clothing right here in this country. It wasn't easy, but they did it. They sourced locally grown cotton, and they built factories in towns across the nation

where they could hire hardworking locals who cared about making a quality product. And then they went about the business of gently reminding people that when you buy a piece of clothing from American giant, You're not just buying a high-quality sweatshirt or T-shirt or another pair of jeans. You're investing in a local supply chain. You're supporting communities from the Carolinas to California. And you're getting a piece of clothing that won't just survive the wash. You're getting a garment that'll get better with age. Check out their high-quality staples, hoodies, teas, denim, built to be worn year after year at American-giant.com slash mike.

It's quality you can feel and a true American success story that you can be proud to support. Use code Mike. Get 20% off your order at American-giant.com slash mic. American Giant American Made. American Giant American Made. Does that get more important to you as you get older? Absolutely. As I get older.

as I became a dad. You know, you just see the, you see the value. Is it a legacy thing or is it a, that word makes me a little uneasy sometimes? Legacy. Yeah. Only because it just feels like little monuments you might build for yourself or to yourself. Right. I don't know the exact etymology or definition, obviously.

But I know the importance of feeling like you did something with your day. Some days you sleep better than others. some days you see the needle move. I heard somebody say that. You know, when people get in old age, there's three reasons of why they might die. One is they lose money. It's expensive to get old. Two, they lose love.

How many old people are in retirement homes with no visitors? Three, they lose purpose. And so I think to focus on purpose, you know, that's the legacy part of me. For me, that's what legacy would be. Like, did I really make a difference in the lives of people? I'm sure it's cool. that people say, gosh, I formed a company and I was able to create opportunities for people who are now multimillionaires. I'm sure that's super important. I love money. And people who say that they don't

care to make money would lie about other things as well. I love money, you know, but as far as legacy, it's, you know, to really make a difference in people's lives. And, yeah, becoming a dad absolutely taught me that, having the mom that I had taught me that. But you better believe age has taught me that. To be this old, that didn't come out well. But to be this old, yeah, I just want to make a difference. Give me the three again? The three reasons people. They lose money.

Yeah. They lose love. So in relationships. And the third is purpose. What gets me out of bed in the morning is not that I'm running a successful financial aid department or that my IT department is running smoothly. I have people who are brilliant at that. They don't want me near that.

They don't give me a key to my building. They don't want me watering the plants. But what they do rely on me is to make sure that this is a good place to work. You know, I think that there's three basic human needs. Number one, people need to feel safe. And I could go on and on about what that means. People need to feel that they belong. They say that 60% of people say no one has my back and half of them are married.

So if we create a culture at work where people show up, and they feel like they belong to something. I mean, people, they get that at church, they get that in other places, but how many of them actually get it at work? And the third basic human need, people need to have a purpose. The best way I know how to explain that

is you could have two janitors working for the same elementary school. Same job, same salaries, same everything. One has the attitude of, these little brats make a mess around here, and it's my job to clean it up. That's what they pay me to do. And the other one has the attitude of

It's my privilege. It's my opportunity to create a clean educational learning environment for the next generation that's going to save this planet. There was a study done years ago. I'll forget the name, but it tracked the lives of two identical twins. Okay. Two boys. And one of them both lost their parents at the same time. And one of them wound up on death row. The other wound up running an operation similar in scope and size to yours. And at the end of this documentary, it's just so powerful. The question is, to what do you attribute your current circumstance? Posed to each of the twins.

And of course, the answer was identical with parents like the ones I had. How could I have wound up anywhere else? Wow. You know, I hear versions of that. I hear people try and make sense out of different outcomes through same circumstances. Somebody asked Larry Ellison once to what he attributed his great success. And his answer, I loved it, was, well, I had just the right amount of adversity. So I wonder, you know, I mean, when you look at seven siblings, when you look at whatever it was like growing up in Southern California,

by way of Utah, you know. How did, if it did, how did adversity shape win Clayball? Not a lot of adversity. A lot of expectations. Again, a really, really good work ethic. The adversity certainly didn't come from my upbringing, my family. You know, I found the adversity on my own. I sought that out myself.

But again, zero regrets. You know, you and I have talked a lot about Gary's Seneese. Thanks for the hat, by the way. My pleasure. Gary Seney's Foundation, a hoodie. So Gary introduced me. One of the best people walking around.

We love that man. You better. Love that man. And I travel often with one of his ambassadors for the Gary Sini's Foundation, Cedric King, who's a double amputee and lost his legs, stepping on an IUD in Afghanistan. And within 24 months of him losing his legs, he's running the Boston Marathon. And so his stories are incredible.

But when I, when I, when I, I know. When I interviewed him for my podcast, I asked him, I said, if you could go back and change that day, the day that you stepped on that bomb and lost your legs, would you go back and change that date? He said, absolutely not. He says, I probably would have ended up divorced. I probably would have ended up. My two girls probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with me. He says, I was on the path of being a total jerk and losing my legs. Saved all that. You know, let me ask you this. This is personal. Don't answer if you don't want. But if I'm doing the math right, you got clean from the meth 23 years ago. Correct. You've been in business with JP for 25 years. You're doing the math right. All right. So for two years, I assume you're not in the closet with this. He must have known. I don't know that he knew. I was pretty good at separating it, functioning. You know, so I never mixed the two with work and with.

with my drug addiction. I mean, it got pretty bad. I could have easily lost everything. Fortunately, and I'm just gonna say it was by grace one day, I knew I was done, and that was it. During lunch, you said, hey, you should interview JP. Would you be interested in that? Yeah, but is he more interesting than you?

He's a very interesting guy. No, no, no. Is he more interesting than you? Oh. Five years on the pipe, billion dollar empire, beautiful 13-year-old girl, fantastic mother, giving workshops and speeches around the country, launching hundreds of thousands of careers, generating hundreds of billions of dollars for regular people who are trying to put food on the table. He's more interesting than you.

You're being very generous. Yeah, I am, but I mean it. I'm blessed. I have a sweet life. What do you want people to take from the book? And how long ago did you write it, by the way? The book's been out for about 20 years. It's still, I think this is the 15th printing,

so it's still going strong. Originally, the book started off just as an employee manual. Really? Yeah, it was. And it was actually the president of Southwest Airlines, Colleen Barrett, who said to me, you know, this should be a book. and if you make it into a book, I'll buy thousands of copies to give out to my team.

And I said, chiching, I'll do it. You're a mercenary. By the way, I'm not a reader. I don't read. I wrote a book, but I don't read. I gather a lot of information the way we're doing this right now, which is why I started my podcast. I was already asking people those questions because that's how I've always gained my knowledge is by finding heroes and asking those questions. The tale was worried. Thank you.

Thank you so much. You'll edit this right, Chuck. You bet I will. We'll probably cut it into the open. Oh, great. Keeping it real. This is results of we talking about my mom, so. Oh, I thought you're going to say this is what happens when you wax the inside of your nose.

No, we're still going to do that. I thought you were going to say, these are the results of, to be in on meth for 20 years. Leave it up to Chuck. Throw me under the bus without me. Oh, man. I'm just so delighted this has happened. I really am so glad that I wandered into that salon in North Carolina. So am I.

And listen to that girl's story. I don't, I mean, if you told me just a year ago that we were going to include in our scholarship for electricians and plumbers and steamfitters and shipbuilders, and pipebenders and energy work and oil field, and so forth. Cosmetology. I just said, man, you're on the meth. This is never going to happen.

I'm not going to do that. Because, you know, a lot of what I wind up looking at is, like, what is the country suffering from? And my first answer wasn't, you know, an abundance of bad haircuts. It's like, we're going to be okay. But, of course, what is the country really suffering from? suffering from people who have lost purpose, who have lost hope, who are struggling financially. You're a big three.

And to be able to find those things through the mastery of a skill, any skill, any skill, you know, I don't mean to make trouble for four-year schools. I went to a four-year school. My liberal arts education served me pretty well. It was, you know, awfully affordable at the time. But I, you know, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I was wrong to not think about your industry. And you were right to stalk me.

I'm still not clear how you found me, because you sure as hell didn't call Frank, my long dead barber, for a reference. I'm very, very good at finding the right people and getting to them. I mean, really, how did you do it? Who did you? Well, fortunately, again, I sent a lot of DMs. I called a lot of people that I knew, very influential people.

And then what happened was I found out that I was the keynote speaker at an event that you were the keynote speaker a couple of years before I was in Las Vegas. And so once I found that out, I called the organizers. Yeah, this is the person who booked. And so that person called Mary, called your people. And that's how we got to each other. No, and then I had to back it up. But, you know, I was a good guy.

I was very kind in reaching out to your people and offered Mary free facials and all kinds of things, you know. Look, she'll take you up. No, I was telling you that I, you know, there's, you know, probably a good 20 of my daughter's teachers over the years who get their haircuts and facials at my school. And the other parents are like, are you trying to bribe the teachers? I'm like, of course I am. You better believe it.

When I drag Marie Osmond over to the table of my daughter's teacher, you know, because she's a huge Marie Osmond fan, and there's Marie at her table. And my teacher turned to me and said, your daughter is getting an A tomorrow. We do what we got to do. What did you say early on? Hairdressers rule the world?

Was that something like that? Hair dressers make things happen. You know, if you want to get something happen, go to a hairdresser. You want to find the best surgeon in town, call a hairdresser. You want to get to the news broadcaster? Call a hairdresser because they all engage hairdressers. Yeah. And so whenever I want to get something, you want to raise money, that's the thing.

You want to raise money and make a difference, call hairdressers. So when I tell you that my Palm Mitchell schools have raised. and donated $27 million. That's not because we're getting $1,000 donations or a million dollar grants. Our average donation is $5 or $10 because it's very grassroots. Oh, get this, my school in Orlando

to raise money came up with this idea to do a topless car wash. And so they did signs all over town, topless car wash. So, of course, everybody showed up. But what it meant was they didn't wash the top of your car. If you wanted the top wash,

She had to pay extra. Oh, get this, they raised $1,500 in their parking lot of the Palm Mitchell School. I love it. Yeah. Or it's bake cells, it's cutathons, it's pet fashion shows. It's literally hundreds and hundreds of little fundraising events that my schools do on an annual basis. And again, today we're at 27 million. But that's not uncommon in our industry.

You know, I mean, it's, we work with the Fred. Jordan Mission here. It's at Skid Row mission here in downtown L.A. And three, four times a year, I send a hundred of my students who are there on Skid Row. And so everything's going on around them, but they're there cutting hair. That mission serves a thousand homeless people a year. Yeah. Or I'm sorry, a thousand people a day. A day. And so they're there for whether it's back to school, so they're there to get the kids groomed. You know, when a kid's not groomed, they're a target. They're, they're bullied at school. Let's get them cleaned up before they start school. And also, I mean, the distance between grooming, basic hygiene, decent clothes, and self-esteem, it's just so linked.

There are no small things. A haircut is not a small thing if it's the thing that allows you to get to the interview. I know so many hairdressers who literally are hitting the streets on a regular basis to do hair for the homeless. You know, I've a very famous, wealthy hairdresser friend who has a celebrity clientele like you wouldn't believe. You know, but when the Tonys are going on, he doesn't go to the after party. He's like, no, to be sober and to live my purpose. They're going to the party. He's hitting the streets to do hair for the homeless.

Can I tell you a quick story? Please. So I interview this woman by the name of Sister Bonnie, a Catholic nun who wanted to become a hairdresser as a nun so that she's could do hair for the homeless. So get this. She gets permission from the Catholic Church to enroll in beauty school, graduates, opens up her salon, which she named the Pearly Gates Salon. It was located in a tiny bathroom of a shower facility for the homeless in downtown Cincinnati. And so I flew out there, spent a couple of days with Sister Bonnie. She showed me this little tiny bathroom where she cut hair for seven years and did 10,000 homeless people. And get this, she said, when I'm the only

Catholic nun that can say, I've been in the bathroom with 10,000 men, and they all came out smiling. You've ever been to a hair museum? I have not. Have you? Taylor, what's her last name? It was Leila? Yeah. She passed away a couple years ago, but about 10 years ago. I think I've heard about these museums. So it's like famous hair of certain people. Yes, but you know, once upon a time, like you mentioned earlier, you know, a little lock of your hair and a book. I've got it. Like entire histories.

This used to, like, people had hair books in their homes in the 17, 1800s. And Leila Calhoun, Cahoon. Cahill. She had outside Independence, Missouri, not far from Harry Truman's house,

this museum in, like a strip mall. It was one of the most fascinating museums I've ever been in. I mean, there's Abraham Lincoln. Okay. It's, it's, Famous people's hair.

Okay. And then lineage. And it's like it was sort of a, it was a kind of 23 and me before there was any tact. Yeah, it was like genealogy. Yes, exactly. People would pass it down in their family. Here's your great uncle's hair, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah.

Anyway, you said something earlier that just made me think that there, again, there are no small vocations. And we make things small sometimes that we don't understand. you know, maybe because they scare us or maybe just because it puffs us up. But, you know, wherever that thing was where we both spoke, you know, that was an acronym and there was an organization under it that I had never heard of,

but it was terribly important and very relevant to people who were there. And that's our world, you know. That's our world, these groups of people who care deeply and they live in their lanes. I appreciated the invite to your gala. And the reason I sent the video is, because obviously I couldn't make it, and I felt bad. Well, I have the dates for next year if you want to get that down while we got this on video.

Well, you met Mary. Have a chat with her. I'm sure we can work something out. And whether we can or whether we can't, if you're interested, I'm happy to return the favor on your podcast if you'd have me. Oh, are you kidding? If you'd have me. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Wow. Did you do them long distance or in person? Either whatever works. All right. You're down south, right? I'm down in Corona, Elmar. You know, actually pre-COVID, I did for that many years, 25 years, they were all in person. Yeah.

And then once COVID hit, you had no choice. Isn't it crazy? But you know what? Also, technology improved. Because before, back then, it was like one person sounded good and the other person did not sound good. Now, you don't know the difference. It's like Riverside. Riverside platform.

It's incredible. All right. Well, sounds great. That's the other thing and the final thought that I really do love about your industry. return to work. What are you talking about, man? It never stops. Just because the salon's closed

doesn't mean your people aren't coming out and making house calls. It was an amazing thing to watch. There weren't a lot of silver linings during those days, but I do think it really showed us. You know, you adapt or you're done. You pivot or perish.

And so many people in your industry have pivoted You built a hell of a thing, went. Congratulations. The book is called Be Nice or Else. I think he means it, although I doubt he's ever really actually hurt anybody. And where should people maybe go if they want to explore a career and get started in one of your schools? There's bound to be a website. Absolutely.

Just paulmitchell.edu.edu. Uh-huh. Excellent. Yeah. Anything you wish you would have said that you didn't? I'm looking out all your notes there. I mean, we could talk more and more about your mom. You know what?

Talking about moms. Let's save that for yours. Okay. I'd be honored to be a guest on. What is it, the Masters? Masters. Me, Larry King, Betty White. Are you kidding?

I know. I'll be there. Nice lineup. Thanks for not buying me lunch. You owe me one. This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long.

But if it made you smile. Then share your satisfaction in the way that people do Take some time to go on a lot of the I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge, But in this world the advertisers really like to judge You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review Not more

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