The Weekly Planet - Batman 1989 - Caravan Of Garbage

Episode Date: October 4, 2019

Joker 2019 finds itself the latest in a long line of Joker interpretations, a movie that is heavily influenced by a number of properties including Tim Burton' s Batman 1989. Considered to be the kick off for the modern comic book blockbuster this weeks Caravan Of Garbage gets stuck into the good, bad and great of this classic (?) tale. Thanks for listening.Video Version ► https://bit.ly/2nb5aiwJames' Twitter ► http://twitter.com/mrsundaymoviesMaso's Twitter ► http://twitter.com/wikipediabrownTWP Itunes ► https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-weekly-planet/id718158767?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D4TWP Direct Download ► https://play.acast.com/s/theweeklyplanetTWP YouTube Channel ► https://goo.gl/1ZQFGHPatreon ► https://patreon.com/mrsundaymoviesAmazon Affiliate Link ► https://amzn.to/2oKFXfaT-Shirts/Merch ► https://www.teepublic.com/stores/mr-sunday-movies Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit planetbroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates. Oh my goodness, the Joker is returning to the big screen. Oh my god. Was he ever really gone? Not really. He was behind you. The whole time?

The whole time, yeah, yeah. He's putting kick me signs on your back. There's hundreds on there. That's so the Joker, or some version of the Joker. So twisted. Yeah. And look, if we're talking about Joker 2019, we cannot go past Batman 1989, which was the first, well, not the first movie adaptation, was it?

That was the first movie adaptation of anything. Because obviously there's a 1966 version. But it seems like this was the version that made people go, oh, my God, comic books can be real and cool. It certainly did for me. Like when I was a kid, I watched the 1960s Batman TV show because it was on after school. It's fun.

It was fun and I always watched it. It's fun that these guys, they're putting on the costumes and we're all having a bit of fun. Like you could kind of get the vibe that it was kind of camp. And then one day I was at the movie theatre and I saw a trailer for Batman 1999 and I went, oh my God, Batman is real. He's real and he exists in the real world and he's kind of scary now.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, there is that sense. Well, there was a sense in the real world and he's kind of scary now. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there is that sense. There was a sense at the time. I barely remember it, but there was this kind of like, this is the realest thing you'll ever see in your life. But looking back, comparatively,

like this and the 66 version, they're both ridiculous in different ways. This one is still so camp. Yeah. But it's just, it's camping drag. It's camping tough guy drag is what this movie is. Hey, look, also, before we get into this,

if people could leave a like on this video, that would be super helpful. And you know what else would be helpful? What's that? If this movie didn't say just at the start that it's based on the characters by Bob Kane and Bob Kane alone. Oh, that's right.

It did too, yeah. That was only something that was recently fixed. Yeah, Batman famously created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. Mostly Bill Finger. Mostly Bill Finger, exactly. The iconic look, the cape, the costume, the bat symbol. The entire thing. The whole thing.

It was a domino mask and a red costume and bat wings. Like some big stiff bat wings. Yeah. It was pretty good. No. You're right, it wasn't good, yeah. What do you think of the look of Gotham in this film? I like it.

Me too. Again, it's anachronistic it's taken the character of gotham from the comic books which is kind of like it's more or less a normal city but it's got like weird giant props like giant typewriters absolutely big novelty signs or whatever everything looks like a weird sound stage exactly and i think tim burton has gone with let's make the city and this is probably a cliche but make the city a character of its own and kind of and i think Tim Burton has gone with, let's make the city, and this is probably a cliche, but make the city a character of its own. And I think this version, sort of gothy steampunk weirdness universe, has sort of carried on through a lot of different versions. The animated version, obviously, yeah. The Arkham games have a great sense of just like,

this city is weird and monstrous, and why does it still exist? You don't really get that sense as much in the Dark Knight trilogy. A little bit, you know, when they go to the Narrows and things like that. But then if you go Batman v Superman, it just looks like any other city, really. For sure, absolutely. Yeah, it doesn't really have that kind of personality. It's like it's across from Metropolis. And then when you go to Justice League, it's just a series of green blocks

that they've drawn a city on top of, using visual effects. You know what's great what's great in this movie what's that look I'm kind of up and down on this I've rubbed them before you have that's true I want to say again it's silly Tim Burton's had some hits and some misses and I love this as a kid every frame still holds up for me I still love it I mean not everything like the soundtrack, I'm not super fond of. Me neither. Yeah, I feel like that is the one thing that kind of... Dates it, maybe? Yeah, maybe dates it or kind of like breaks it out of this timelessness. Like if it was an all-classical soundtrack, I think this could be set whenever and it would be...

Well, it's got that aesthetic, doesn't it? It's like kind of 1930s cars, but like modern-ish televisions for the time and things like that. But you were saying? Well, the theme song's incredible. Oh, sure the danny offman score which of course was popularized by its inclusion in 2017's justice league that's right and when they put it in that and they went what version of batman is this it doesn't matter just put in the john williams superman theme it doesn't matter everyone will stand up and cheer just just do it but of course

that went on to be the theme song for batman Animated Series and a bunch of other stuff that's kind of popped up. But it's still incredible. I really like the Hans Zimmer Batman stuff. Yeah, sure. I like the Dark Knight. And I don't even mind the Batman score from Batman v Superman. That's also quite good. What about the Wonder Woman theme from Batman v Superman?

I don't like it. Me neither. I don't like it. It's bad. Yeah, I like the Man of Steel theme. But this song, it. Me neither. I don't like it. It's mad. Yeah, I like the Man of Steel theme, but this song, it's so iconic. Iconic is like the na-na-na-na Batman song. For sure, yeah.

And that opening sequence where we're sort of scrolling around the giant Batman logo. Yeah. I remember us being in the cinema going, what is going on? Where are we? Oh, we're in the logo. I thought we were in a ditch.

No, we're not in a ditch. That's incredible. I'd love to know. I tried to find out how big that thing was because we're in a ditch we're not in a ditch that's incredible like i'd love to know i tried to find out how big that thing was because they're running a camera through it i bet it's the size of this table yeah but it's a small it's a small foam disc yeah but it really looks incredible because that's the kind of thing that you just do with cgi now but obviously that's you know that was then and that would have looked terrible if they'd done that yeah sure okay so i want to talk about the casting of batman okay so the studio apparently it's michael keaton case closed very well who did they want well they want i've got a number of names here they wanted mel gibson but he was doing lethal weapon

too i think for the time he would have been a really good choice he would have been a really good choice but i think that would have marred this movie for me forever like modern modern day me i'd be like oh why did i like that as a kid that's a bad choice choice, but yeah, okay. Yeah, but he was busy doing a Lethal Weapon sequel. Also, the mullet wouldn't have fit in the cowl. They would have trimmed it back or tied it in a little ponytail. He would have bat-girled it. He would have just had it hanging out the back. Ray Liotta was offered the role as well as Dent and Joker,

but he did Goodfellas, which I think is an excellent choice. Good call, yep. Pierce Brosnan turned it down, which I don't mind either. That would have been off the back of Remington Steele. I've heard rumours that he might be Alfred in a new Batman movie. I don't mind that, yeah. Spielberg apparently wanted to do it at one point with Harrison Ford. Spielberg, okay, I was going to say, Spielberg's Batman, I love it.

With Harrison Ford. Put the baseball cap under the cow. What do you think about him doing it with Harrison Ford? Sure he would be a good Bruce Wayne, I think, yeah. Again, at the time. other names that were thrown up, it was pretty much every big name at the time. Tom Hanks, John Travolta, Mickey Rourke, Bruce Willis, Kevin Costner, Kevin Spacey.

Kevin Smith. No, he was working in a clerk store for real at that time. Nick Cage, Tom Cruise, Arnold and Emilio Estevez off the back of the Brat Pack stuff, of course. Adam West was also apparently annoyed that he wasn't asked at the time to reprise the role. He was 61 at the time. But Tim Burton has stated in interviews since that he initially wanted Adam West and Julie Newmar, who of course play one of the Catwomen in that series, and Batman,

to play Thomas and Martha Wayne in a flashback. Oh, I see. But apparently that's not something that he ever went to Adam West with. Oh, he just thought of it one day. He thought of it one day, yeah. I guess for a lot of Tim Burton's life, he's often confused as to whether he actually did a thing or just dreamed a thing.

That's true, yeah. I suspect he just drifted it out. I don't know, there was a spiral staircase. I don't know, there was a man covered in, I don't know, like stripy pyjamas. Who am I married to again? Is it that witch? Anyways, they obviously went with Michael Keaton at the end.

He was sort of a comedic actor at the time. He was Mr. Mom. Yeah, people most knew him from Mr. Mom. He'd done some more serious roles, which kind of helped him kind of turn things around in the eyes of the studio. But the Twitter of the time was, of course, sending letters. And this famous story being that 50, protest letters were sent to warner brothers regarding we don't want this guy as our batman yeah which is like a paltry amount compared to

like oh these days absolutely but at the time that's insane i mean to send a letter i know to send a physical letter if so if 50 000 letters got sent these days i'd be like people really mean this yeah absolutely but i mean isn't that interesting as well because these days people like oh my god they should get keaton back as old batman yeah absolutely or like they should get I'd be like, people really mean this. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, isn't that interesting as well? Because these days people are like, oh my God, they should get Keaton back as old Batman. Yeah, absolutely. Or like they should get Keaton for bloody. And, you know, and he was a great villain in Spider-Man.

Yeah. I think the trailer definitely turned people around, which by the way is not a good trailer. Oh, that's bad. That's bad, I remember. But the imagery is still really compelling. And this, the stills of him in the all black Batsuit. Oh my God.

That's such a good, it's again, you know, we've got black bat suit oh my god that's such a good it's again you know we've got fake muscles on it but that's such a good design and again like i don't love it no but all right the cows it looks like it's made out of mashed potato or something that's true yeah i think it's really good in batman returns yeah i don't love it as much and i think i think you know again when some changes are made for an adaptation to a movie and they work then they get slowly put slowly put back into the comic book version. I think that's what happened with Batman is his costume started getting darker. Because he was a blue and grey or darkish at the time. I love the all black.

I love the golden utility belt. Yep, I like that. It's only in it for like one scene, but they built like a winch into it, like a mechanical winch. Oh, right. So like all these bat equipment is on his back. Yeah. And then it sort of rotates around to the front. Oh, right.

They built, I used to have like the making of Batman the movie book. Yes. Somewhere, maybe I still have it. They made this incredibly complicated mechanism. That you never see. That you never really see. Yeah, right. Like when he needs his grappling hook and it would just kind of spin

around his waist and appear on his front kind of thing. And look, to be fair, most of his gadgets are just grappling hooks. He's got the device that hits people in the nuts if they're jumping towards him and he's got the grappling hook that splits out in different directions. But it's mostly grappling hooks, isn't it? He uses a smoke bomb at one point. Okay, but here's the thing. You're right, but also this is pioneering use of the Batman grappling hook

because this movie invented Batman using a grappling hook because he before that he had the Batarang he had the Batarang on a rope and this is the first one

somebody I mean maybe it wasn't Burton but clearly somebody in the production team was like his arms would get real tired he's not reaching a rooftop with that

and also he can't lift his arms above his head exactly in this restrictive suit apparently though the Wall Street Journal even had an article we've got it here you can look at it right right now where they were like this is probably not a good idea and people hate this but warner brothers were just

like this is great publicity it's got people talking about it i think it's also the same with the joker movie there's so much back and forth about it before it's even out that's true yeah i think it's helping what is the wall street journal saying are they saying it's too dark or are they saying it's too silly saying it's just not a good idea to cast keaton as batman that's what people are saying so that wasn't really a thing that they would weigh in on that's true yeah it was kind of a big deal at the time and i mean maybe frizzy hairstyles weekly would weigh in they'd certainly be qualified definitely in the original script though and i could see why people might be upset because bruce wayne is described as a man with muscles on top of muscles and scarred

from nightly combat yeah but you don't get any of that sense he's just like a small just a small man in a turtleneck yeah exactly the funny thing is about this though they apparently wanted to they wanted to do a lot of sponsorship on batman himself they wanted him to be seen clearly wearing nikes those right boots are modified nike shoes you can see yes they are that's true yeah but yeah they cut tim burton was like no this is a true movie that this is the realest thing i've ever made in my life and we're not going to do any of that sponsorship of course this kind of idea to kind of make everything a toy and sponsor everything and with batman with a credit card it was one of the contributing factors

to eventually kill this particular iteration. Yeah, I mean Batman Returns especially like it was a super dark adventure into the heart of a man's soul or whatever but at the same time they did have Happy Meal toys at McDonald's. Interestingly, if you remember, did you ever see Mystery Men? Yeah. The main character

of that. Although the Superman-esque. Yeah, the big Captain Amazing played by greg kinnear who's like the the town's big superhero yes sponsorship logo head to toe logos yeah yeah i like that what's interesting about this version of batman is it's not really his movie we'll get to the joker obviously but keaton you can't really go past how well he plays this i mean people remember the let's get nuts scene it's absolutely. It doesn't make any sense in the context of the scene. He's just lining himself up to be shot, it would seem.

He really is, yeah. He's standing at like a distance apart where he couldn't even get near the Joker if he wanted to. That's true, what can he do? I mean, maybe he had some gadgets hidden in that big double-breasted suit, who knows? I was going to ask you about this, because you know something about the deleted scene for this, right? In the original script, which back in the they would like make novelisations of these kind of movies and they would always use the original script because there wasn't enough time to

use the final shooting script. There's like a motorcycle chase after this. Doesn't he put on a balaclava and he runs off down the street? Yeah but it's not in this. I think they might have even filmed that because maybe there are some imagery of it. I see. But I might be wrong on that. Look people remember that scene. I mean absolutely absolutely people remember the I'm Batman.

Well, apparently that was changed because in the script it was I am the knight. And Keaton was like, why don't I just say I'm Batman. And then there was some back and forth and some different ways of saying it. I'm Batman. I am Batman. I'm Batman. But look, he doesn't. Then he's like, you're Batman. I'm Batman. But look, he doesn't. Then he's like, you're Batman.

No, Michael. You've gone too far. You, the audience, are Batman. But he does have those over-the-top moments in it. But there's moments where he's trying to tell Vicky Vale that he is Batman and he's kind of stumbling over his words and he's trying to work around what he's trying to say. And he's a good actor.

He's good in this. He really is. And I wish even in the follow-up film that they had have given him more to do and less like, well, this is really a villain-focused kind of freak show circus act. Well, I mean, I think maybe that is what attracted Burton to the directorial role in this. It's like, well, Batman, you know, and I think, you know, he attempted to delve into the psyche of your batman but at the same time there's only so far you can go i think yes if you're trying to do an origin story of a hero and he's got it you know he's got goals and he's got to fight crime and and fall in love and what have you it's kind of that that kind of rock is is a little bit on rails yes you get your villain you can take it completely off the rails yeah and

that's you know and that's one of bat Batman's strengths is he's got this insane rogue gallery of lunatics. Absolutely, yeah. He's not very good at being Batman, though. And I'm going to tell you why. Why's that? For one, those first muggers which he takes down, he doesn't collect the money or the credit cards that they took and give them back to the family.

Maybe he posted them afterwards. Maybe he did. Maybe Alfred comes in on a helicopter. But he just leaves. He just jumps off the roof. Yeah. Like, they have their fisticuffs and he's like, tell everybody that I'm Batman, yeah?

Yeah. I'll see you later. All right, no drama. See you later. Yeah. But he's also bad at his identity. Like when he brings Vicky Vale back to his house, he's hanging upside down.

That's such a weird Tim Burton thing to be like. Isn't it though? Well, he's Batman, so obviously he'd sleep upside down like a bat. He's got all the characteristics of a bat. He's still a man. He's still a man with blood rushing to his head. And then she comes down to the kitchen in the morning. He's just got a bowl of fruit and he's just like chomping at it.

He's just chomping at a mango. I also like how, as Bruce Wayne, he's this kind of buffoon walking around Wayne Manor, just putting things down. And Alfred's kind of picking up after him as he goes. They've got this great like in sync chemistry kind of going on. Michael Gow from many, many Hammer horror films. Legend of the game. Absolutely is.

Yeah. He's really good. And he stays for all four of these, these movies, but even things like he'll just walk into gunfire. Yes. Like there's a moment where the Joker's on the steps and he's just kind of walks out and he, the bullet goes through his sleeve. Yeah, right.

He gets shot as Batman quite a lot. And even though he's like bulletproof, he seems to be like, I'll just kind of stand in the way of this and I'll probably be okay. I think he needs to do more Batman-y things. He does a lot of walking around. Yeah, that's true. And I think a lot of that is the suit. You do see him fight a little bit, but it's clunky for the most part. Yeah, that's true. And I think a lot of that is the suit. You do see him fight a little bit, but it's clunky for the most part. Yeah, that's true.

But I mean, there is also like an Indiana Jones kind of moment where he fights a guy with a bunch of swords. Yes. And then he just hits him in the nuts. He bloody hits him in the nuts, mate. You know what I do like about this? Yes. For one, the many cameras that he has behind that mirror.

But two, the Batmobile design. Even though you need a grappling hook to take a corner, it's incredibly impractical it's a hundred feet long but what a great looking Batmobile I don't know if it's been superseded design wise

well the Tumbler's more of a combat exactly, I like the Tumbler a lot the Tumbler's like an armadillo on wheels, it's not a Bat vehicle and everything else has been kind of yeah well the Batman v Superman one I like the Tumbler a lot. The Tumbler's like an armadillo on wheels. It's not a Bat vehicle. And everything else has been kind of... Yeah, well, the Batman v Superman one and the one in Justice League looks like a remote-controlled car that's been bigged up. I don't hate it, but it's not my favourite design either.

And the Bat plane from The Dark Knight Rises is basically just like a Minecraft. Yeah, it is. Just a flying block, really. Just a series of boxes stacked together got an interesting batmobile for the trivia though i'm ready in 1989 patrick mcclynn a college student from virginia won the engine free prop offered in mtv's promotional steal the batmobile contest and he intended to loan it out to like prop conventions and museums to make money but he'd signed a

contract which said that he couldn't do any of that. He couldn't profit off this thing that he'd won. Obviously, you can't drive around it either because it hasn't got an engine in it. And even if it had an engine in it, it could only go like 30. And it's not shooting flames out the back, and that's what you want it for. No, that's a different separate mechanism they had to fire up. That wasn't connected to the engine anyway. But anyway, he still would lend it out regardless,

and at one museum the shift lever was stolen, and the car was also taxable and led to an IRS audit. So eventually, due to mounting expenses from a motorcycle accident, which she was involved in, and the prize of $10,000 insurance premium, McLean was forced to sell the Batmobile at a paltry sum. So basically, he was just cursed with this Batmobile that he couldn't... To who? Probably Nicolas Cage.

Probably Nicolas Cage, yeah. I'd imagine it was mostly just a fiberglass shell on wheels. That's what it would be, exactly, yeah. Really inconvenient, to be honest. Yeah. You know what is rad in this? You tip it upside down, you've got yourself a very luxurious bath. Oh, you'd never do.

It's 100 feet long. Oh, my God, can you imagine? But, yeah, like, that design is, and it's kind of like it combines some of the weird ones from the 30s, like the comic book versions, and the one from the 60s with the jet engine in the back. And it's also got that weird stop motion armour system around it, which is good. And it's good for machine gunning factories and blowing people up.

You know it is. You'll stand in front of it and say stop into a piece of 1989 equipment. Like that's going to work every time. Like that's not just going to plow through. You know what's even better than that, I would say? What's that? The bat wing. Yeah.

It's fucking rad. Yes. And I don't like to use the word rad, Mason, because it makes me sound like an old dad. But I think in this instance, it is absolutely 100% accurate. Look, even though it's got this incredible targeting system that doesn't actually work. Oh, he can't hit the broadside of a barn.

He's got so many guns on that thing. I mean, he hits a bunch of people because he is a murderer. I've got my Kill Count video, which people can check out. But it just gets shot with one bullet. Maybe it's a very long bullet. I think it's a very long. It's 100 feet long. That, of course, brings us to the Joker.

We finally got around to it. Look, if I may, why have they ever done another design for the Batplane? Completely agree. It's perfect. 100%. And even, like, it's so good that even the scene when it flies up onto the moon and it makes the Bat symbol, which I think in any other situation I'd be like, that's a little bit on the nose. It's the best thing that's ever

happened. Exactly. It's rad. It's so rad. The Joker. Jack Nicholson. Yeah, Jack Nicholson. So, there's a moment at the start where he's just Jack Napier. There's a lot of controversy around that because he'd never really been named before. Yeah. And it doesn't really matter because some versions he is, some versions he isn't.

Like since then, that's kind of been the idea. Yeah, right, uh-huh. But there's a moment where he hands a corrupt cop money in a sandwich, like two bits of dry bread, just in the middle of the night. Yes. Like that's going to be something that if somebody saw it, they'd be like, oh, it's just a gangster meeting a cop in the middle of this

car galley at 3am in the morning. That's right. I mean, it looks like he's handing him a bribe, but it does have bread around it. So I guess it's just a lettuce sandwich on rye. Thanks for the dough. You could say that people wouldn't think it was the sandwich. Also, there's nobody around. There's nobody around's nobody around there's nobody around the surgeon did such a bad job on the joke i mean

he turned him into the joker in fairness that face is like you couldn't you couldn't have done better than that i know you're a back alley surgeon but jesus christ man like come on you know the moment where for some of this movie he's got the the skin-coloured make-up over the white Joker make-up. The way that they had to do the scene where he'd wipe it off and you've got the Joker make-up underneath, it was so elaborate and it's layers of different material, so one will wipe off and one will stay. You'll use a special rubbing alcohol to get one off and not the other.

When really you could have just put white paint on the handkerchief and just kind of swiped it over yeah that's because he doesn't take the whole thing off no he does a little bit and then you cut yeah exactly but i'm thinking burton's like we're gonna do this we're gonna do it correctly we're doing this right i don't know if you've heard we're doing exactly we're doing it right i mean yeah exactly i like the touch different versions of the joker you know over the years but i like the touch in this one that the nerves in his face have been severed and he can't not smile even if he wants to.

Okay. That's good. So it's not even the thing that he's pinned his face back permanently. It's just the... I don't know. I don't know either. He's just got sores and levers and whatever he's working with. I don't even think that guy was a surgeon.

I think he was a dog murderer. I think the fact that he's made him anything resembling a face at all is actually a miracle. That's probably true, actually, yeah. Well, there was some controversy, of course, around the casting of this, because they always wanted Jack Nicholson. They took an image from The Shining and just kind of coloured it like the Joker and went, this is the guy, but how are we going to get someone like Jack Nicholson for this?

And then they were like, okay, but if we don't get him here, but we just take that image from the Joker and we just move it up and down on the screen. We don't have to pay him anything. In of the lens it won't be as rad but no but people will buy it so they actually used robin williams's bait and he was famously very angry about this yeah the role of the joker i think obviously would have taken in a more comedic and less dark direction but who really knows what way he would have played it exactly i think and again i think we've seen we've seen robin will Robin Williams in enough twisted, dare I say twisted roles, that I think maybe he would have made some real meat of this.

But that was something that he more was allowed to do from like One Hour Photo and things like that era. You didn't really get that kind of Robin Williams. Well, maybe we would have got it earlier. Yeah, well, that's exactly it. The writer of this, Sam Hamm, he thought, Willem Dafoe's the way to go. And the quote here is...

Is that what he said? Willem Dafoe's the way to go. Well, the actual quote is, we thought, well, Willem Dafoe just the way to go. And the quote here is... Is that what he said? Willem Dafoe's the way to go. The actual quote is, we thought, well, Willem Dafoe just looks like the Joker. Which is not incorrect. The other thing, of course, is Harvey Dent in this movie. Yeah, Billy Dee Williams in this movie. He was supposed to reprise the role. I've got a video on it on Tim Burton's version of Batman 3, which became Batman Forever.

He was going to come back. They were going to do a different version of Robin. There was actually going to be Robin in this. I'll get to that in a bit. But he was famously screwed out of the role to get a name like Tommy Lee Jones. Yeah. At the time, he was doing The Fugitive and a bunch of stuff. I remember being so excited in the cinema when we saw Harvey Dent in this.

I'm like, he's going to be Two-Face. Yeah. I'm so excited. I think he would have been a great Two-Face. Me too. And to be fair, he has actually played Two-Face. I'm so excited. I think it would have been a great Two-Face. And to be fair, he has actually played Two-Face since. Oh, animated? Lego Batman movie, yeah, I believe so. So Vicki Vale.

Are you Kim Basinger? Which was a character. Who we called Kim Basinger back in the day, but then she got a little pronunciation tweak. And that's fine. You can call yourself whatever you want. Ralph Fiennes. Demi Moore.

So Sean Young was famously cast in this role. Oh, from Blade Runner. Yeah, but she broke a collarbone in a practice riding scene. She fell off a horse. Oh, in Batman. No, this is before. This was before I started filming. So they recast it.

She turned up to Tim Burton's office when he was casting for Batman Returns for Catwoman in a full cat suit. And he was like, do not let her in. Like, this isn't the direction I'm going to go. I've never heard an actor shows up at a production office unannounced story that's ended well. Yeah, absolutely. I've never heard one.

It's always like, you're too keen and we don't like it. And we're never seen again. That's right, yeah. Which pretty much is what happened to her. She's done bits and pieces, but yeah. So the Clock clock tower sequence. Before I get to that, how much of this movie is just set at a large set of grey steps

and are they supposed to be a different set of grey steps? No, that's the Gotham steps. Everything happens at the grey steps. Because I think every time they're at a grey steps, like at the end when he crashed the Batmobile, it's grey steps. There's like a press conference at the grey steps. There's other grey steps things happening. But I think it's supposed to be a different location. Yeah, exactly. I think

Gotham is built on a series of large Grey Steps. Okay, well that makes sense. They're the foundations of Gotham. Yeah, but speaking of the clock tower, that was a sequence which they had changed close to the production of this because they weren't really sure what way it was going to end. So they end up with this pretty good clock tower sequence, which has Batman trudging his 140 pound muscle. Oh, so many flights of stairs flights of stairs yeah i'm surprised he got there in time though apparently it's real time from the chop is going to be 10 minutes and it's about 10 minutes for when it actually gets there so it actually planned it out pretty well or was it just just a coincidence but what i also love about

that is and you can also perfectly add pink floyd's dark side of the moon oh my god it times out just perfectly you You obviously get the, you know, he fights the henchmen up there and one of them is the guy who played the Predator who he famously throws down the centre of the bell tower.

But I love a good clown trouncing. Like we get one in it, obviously. It's true, yeah. It's like a man who's severely outmatched because he's 65 years old. He was a bit younger

than that at the time. But just getting absolutely pummeled. It's true. What do you think about the element that they changed it so Jack Napier killed Bruce Wayne's parents?

Do you think it adds something? There's a personal stakes to it, I guess. I'm okay with it in this version, and maybe it's just because that's how I saw it as a kid, but I don't think it's necessary. Yeah. I guess that maybe Burton wanted this to be like one self-contained thing, and he was like, well, wouldn't it be some sort of poetic justice

if this was the man who created him and then he created the other one? But I don't think it's necessary. Yeah. I mean, I understand why they did it. But I also think that the guy that they got to play, young Jack Napier, I'm like, holy shit, just get that guy to be the Joker. I've never seen him in anything else. But he just looks like an Alex Ross painting of the Joker.

He absolutely does, yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about an Alex Ross painting of the Joker. He absolutely does. Yeah. How do you feel about murdering Batman in general and the way that he murders the Joker intentionally? I mean, what way was that going to go? Unless he let go of the helicopter and he just kind of swung over and smacked it to the side of a building. Maybe he would have lived from that.

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Maybe, you know what Batman was probably hoping? That one of the Joker's legs was torn off and then they could just follow the trail of blood across Gotham City to the Joker's final hideout where he would be arrested and taken to hospital. Provided he hadn't run out of blood by that point.

I think that's what Batman was aiming for. He never explains himself like that, does he? No, that's true. I never realised this at the time, but the Joker, you know, he falls to his death. Instead of him being just a bag of blood that's exploded at the bottom, that's true. I never realised this at the time, but the Joker, you know, he falls to his death. Instead of him being just a bag of blood that's exploded at the bottom,

he's really indented. He's completely intact and he's just stuck in the concrete. Yeah. There's something really upsetting about that laugh box kind of going. I wonder whether he set it off on the way down.

Maybe he did, yeah. Or it's something that he's got built in him if his heart stops. I don't know. Wasn't it just a little velvet bag? Oh, is that that what they did but he must have switched it on i think he switched it on the way down there you go or it had like uh maybe it's got an accelerometer in it it's like an iphone you drop your iphone off the side of a building and it goes so i want to talk about some stuff that didn't make it into this film if you don't mind before

we wrap this up look can i can i just shout outs to pat engel as commissioner gordon i think he's a good gordon i like robert wall uh arliss as as the uh as as vicky vale's kind of sidekick yeah he is good yeah he makes some good jokes yeah what about you're my number one oh jack carlisle yeah yeah for sure oh great a whole bunch of memorable side characters including bob the goon yeah who's a personal friend of uh jackolson, actually. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. But he shows up in a bunch of different stuff as well from this era, yeah. Also, Porkins is in this from Star Wars.

What about the bit where the Joker's like, Bob, gun. And he gives him the gun and he shoots Bob with it. Terrific. Surely you would have seen that coming, Bob. Maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you wouldn't. Because you're mates. And you shouldn't shoot your mates.

Shouldn't shoot your mates. It's true. That's a lesson we've learned from this. Okay, so apparently there was going to be a Robin sequence in this. And it was actually scripted. Kiefer Sutherland was offered the role because he was big and young at the time. Physically big? Whatever the size he is now.

He's about that. Given that this was a Tim Burton movie, I would have really expected Batman to steal Robin out of an orphanage as a baby. Right. This is mine. But no, Kage like as a baby. Yeah, right. This is mine. Yeah, but no, keep a subtle look. Yeah, but you actually find this. There's a completed storyboard from the time that highlights the sequence

of Robin's origin and the death of his parents, and they actually went back and got the animated series cast to voice it. Oh, I see. Yeah, which is really interesting. It's probably on the YouTubes. It is on the YouTubes. If you're watching this video, then you're looking at it right now. Oh, my God.

That's about it as far as things that they cut out. We talked about the ski mask thing, didn't we? I had that, but we mentioned it earlier. We mentioned it earlier. We could not mention it straight at the bat. Yes, that's right. Off the bat. Off the bat.

So we recently did Rambo 3. Stallone had some interesting things to say about this new era of movies kicked off with Batman 89, which it really did. Like Star Wars is credited as like the first kind of modern blockbuster, but Batman was a different era again. I mean, it kicked off just an incredible era of people adapting newspaper comic strips that nobody read anymore. The Shadow.

Dick Tracy. The Phantom. Oh, my goodness. So many good ones. It's weird that they went, that's the way that this should go, because it's really not. No. There's something appealing about Batman and the fact that it stayed in the zeitgeist, which is the reason for the success behind this movie.

For sure, yeah. Anyway, Stallone said, The visuals took over. The special effects became more important than the single person. I wish I'd have thought of Velcro muscles myself. I didn't have to go to the gym all those years. All those hours wedded to the iron game, as we call it. But as, of course, we both know now, he's done a comic book movie.

Judge Dredd. Pull it to the head and Judge Dredd. But also Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2. Oh, that's right, yeah. I think he's come around on that since. But, yeah, it was this different era of the muscle-bound action hero is kind of on the way out. You know what I mean?

Yeah, right. Probably True Lies was probably the proper real end of that. Yeah, and even that one was quite tongue-in-cheek. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, as I said before, they should make another one of these. Yeah, same continuity. Yeah, look, I know they're doing the Batman with Robin Pattinson. Sorry, Robat Battenbat, as we call him.

That's his nickname, his Batman nickname. But I think now DC are doing these movies set in different continuities in different universes. So I think, why wouldn't you come back to this? Give us a Batman Beyond movie, but set in the Burtonverse. Exactly. Why not? It's an insane, gothic, steampunk world,

but it's also the future. I love it. Everybody's got an iPad. Everybody's got an iPad. That's right. But it's the size of a 1930s TV. It's a big box that you carry around. You've got to crank it on the side like it's a jack-in-the-box.

Anyways, this has been Batman 89. I'd love to know what people think of this movie. Does it hold up? It's definitely of its time for me, and I've rubbished it before in the past. I don't love these Burton Batman movies, but there's so much in this that's still good. It's hard for me to just dismiss it completely. You can't really. Well, exactly.

And it's so much sort of, whether you like it or hate it, I think there's so much iconic stuff in it that it's sort of carried on into the rest of the Batman adaptations. Exactly. And if the first time you saw it was like a grown-up, I would love to hear what you thought of it. Absolutely. Does it hold up as a grown-up watching this movie for the first time?

Yeah. Probably not, I'd imagine. Probably not. Anyways, this has been Caravan of Garbage. We do this here every Tuesday. Please subscribe if you would like to because it helps us and you can come back and see what we're doing next week even if you wouldn't like to please subscribe even if you're like oh it makes me physically sick to hit subscribe i said rad too much it's a nice thing to do it would be a rad

thing to do it would be and of course if you've got a suggestion for caravan of garbage a movie a video game a tv show a, let me take a look. Leave it below. Also, we have a podcast called The Weekly Planet where we talk movies and comics and TV shows. That comes out every Monday morning. And of course, we have an episode on the upcoming film Joker. Oh, yes. I'm very interested to see how that one's going to turn out.

Me too. Who knows? Anyways, I'm at MrSundayMovies on Twitter. I'm at WikipediaBrown on Twitter. See you guys next time. Grab that jam, you guys. We'll see you next week. Goodbye.

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