The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Andrew Gallimore | DMT Didn't Take You Somewhere New — It Unlocked What's Always There

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

-If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can start your claim in just a click without having to leave your couch: https://ForThePeople.com/WHY -Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call [phone] now. -The Basement: Andrew Gallimore | DMT Didn't Take You Somewhere New — It Unlocked What's Always There Dr. Andrew Gallimore has spent 30 years studying the world's strangest molecule — one your body already produces. As a neurobiologist and pharmacologist, he's built a scientific case that what people encounter on DMT isn't hallucination. It's contact. In this conversation, Gallimore walks through the neuroscience of how DMT hijacks the brain's world-building system, and why that distinction matters enormously. He also shares his recent collaboration with consciousness theorist Don Hoffman — work that produced a mathematical model of the DMT state that Gallimore calls one of the most profound moments of his career. From machine elves to the Barrow Scale, from near-death experiences to the nature of alien intelligence — this one covers ground most conversations never reach. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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After you purchase, they'll ask you what you heard about them. Tell them we sent you. Today we're talking with Dr. Andrew Gallimore. He's a Cambridge trained chemist and neuroscientist, and he spent 30 years studying one molecule, DMT, what he calls the world's strangest psychedelic. Many people report meeting entities when using DMT, and Andrew has a theory about them that's not exactly mainstream.

He writes about this in his book, Death by Astonishment. Death by Astonishment. And finally a cause of death, that isn't fell out of a window after questioning the official story at a CIA. He thinks the beings people meet on DMT might not be hallucinations. They might be real, alive, sentient, and living in another dimension. And he makes a pretty good case, because there are people who take DMT for years, and then one day a creature waves a finger and says,

you're not welcome here. It's called a lockout, and some people stay locked out for years. Oh, so the machine elves have bounces. I better be respectful next time I'm in a machine elf champagne room, huh? Today we're covering where DMT comes from, what it does inside your brain, and a new theory he built with cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman. It connects the whole thing to consciousness itself. After our conversation, I'll come back with a little quick analysis,

but until then, grab a brain bucket because this one goes deep. Let's go down to the basement. Dr. Andrew Gallimore, welcome to the basement. Good to be here, A.G. Thank you very much for having me. As good as can be. I guess just quick disclaimer before we get started. We're not endorsing anything, any drug use. We're not promoting it.

None of that stuff. That being said, we both have experience with psychedelics, so when we're talking about it, we have been there. Yeah. Okay. So I thought I heard you say it's seven or eight years old. You're into ghosts, vampires, werewolves, all the paranormal. it looks like you have just upgraded your monsters to a new level.

Is that what happened? Is you're just a monster kid? That's pretty accurate. I mean, I was into, yeah, werewolves, vampires, ghosts, the occult, Ouija boards. My parents were horrified. I mean, it's like the headmaster of the school had to call him my parents, my father, specifically. What were you doing that? the headmaster got involved.

What was that specific? Stories. You were telling stories? I was writing. So when the teacher said, write a story, I would write these most horrific. Because I'm going to defend myself a little bit more.

You were that kid. I was that kid. But I have got quite a big family. So I've got two older brothers, two younger brothers. So I'm right in the middle. And the two older brothers, obviously were a huge influence.

on me. My oldest brother, Ian, when I was kind of, well, six, seven, eight years old, he was like 12. And he was more mature. And he was very interested in horror movies. And like, in those days, there was like banned movies. Remember that? Sure. This one's banned. Faces of death. Faces of death and cannibal corpse and this kind of thing, right? So you have to watch Right. So he'd mail off for some VHS, you know, copied, pirated. Yep. And come back and then he'd watch these movies in the living room because there's only one VCR in the house, of course, in those days. And I would sit and watch them.

My parents were very relaxed about this until I started kind of reproducing these kind of things in my stories at school. And I think my headmaster was slightly concerned that I was, you know, going to be the next Michael Myers. or something like that. Or the next Neil Gaiman. What was that last straw story about? You want me to say it, really? Yeah. So in the story, it was a story about an escaped lunatic,

inspired by the Halloween movies. He escaped from the sanitarium, and he murdered several people. And then in one instance, he came across a, God, do I want to say this? He came across a woman with her baby and a pram, and anyway the baby ends up being diced and I use that word

diced with a spade and the headmaster was understandably in retrospect thought this is like a I mean I was like seven years old oh god elementary school anyway and so yeah they

they used to used to like every day at the end of school he'd come to the classroom he'd check through my work and check that I wasn't writing horrible things. Yeah, it was... What did your folks say about that story? Yeah, they had a word with me and said,

maybe you should, you know, maybe write about nice things. But they weren't worried about you being... No. They knew where it came from. It was just the influence of my older brothers. But still, at that time, it wasn't just that story. It was that I was interested in the occult. Things that seven-year-olds aren't normally interested in.

And I was quite an advanced reader for my age. I used to go to these old secondhand bookstores and try to find books about ghosts and vampires and things like that. And I really believed in them. I wanted to be a ghost hunter when I grew up. That didn't come true. But in a way, in a way it did. In a way it did. Yes. There we go.

When I was nine, I bought a mail-order book on witchcraft and the occult. I had quite a sit-down over that book. Yeah, I'm sure. So I get it. Picture this. You've spent years searching for a hidden treasure. You followed the clues, crossed deserts, climbed mountains, and finally found the chest. You crack it open and standing next to you is the guy who buried it. And he smiles and says, actually, I think most of that is mine. Now you're in a fight over something valuable and the other

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Take us from there to 1996. Your friend shows you a magazine. Yeah, so when I... What magazine was it? I don't remember. but it was after I graduated from high school, so in the two years we call them A-levels in the UK, so I was 16 years old, I guess.

I started to get interested in psychedelics, reading about psychedelics and talking a lot about psychedelics. I studied in chemistry, biology, and I wanted to be a pharmacologist that wanted to study drugs, basically, and how they affect the mind. What drew you to psychedelic specifically?

Especially for someone who wasn't, didn't take them. At the time I didn't know. But when I think back, you know, the interest in ghosts and werewolves and vampires, it's unusual things. I guess you could put it in the most broad sense, I guess. That's what tracks for me is you've always been into the alternate realities. Yeah, and because I used to collect a magazine called The Unexplained. It was one of those ones that came out every week and you got the binders, that kind of thing.

I ordered it specially from the newsagent. And within there, there was a lot about ghosts and all that kind of stuff. But then there was stuff about ESP and UFOs and things like that. So it's not so strange that as I became an adolescent and started to mature. that my interest shifted away from just ghosts and werewolves and into more serious things I guess you know more scientific things psychedelic seemed to be a way of altering your mind of altering the structure dynamics of your reality and so that kind of excited me wanted to know how that worked so I'd been talking about it a lot at school

and then one day my friend he's I can give his name actually now is Nur Abbas his name is he's actually interesting or he was a few years ago the chief designer for oh what's his name he used to be married to Kim Kardashian easy easy

used to the easy shoes everyone's screaming at us right now but I don't remember or from the show no no he's like a black guy he's most crazy guy that was on Rogan he's been on Rogan he's been on everyone's going to go crazy after the break we'll

going to find that out. We will. Kanye West. Kanye. Yeah, Kanye. He was his chief designer. He became a fashion designer. He was actually Kanye West chief designer. Anyway.

Wow. Yeah. He'd be fun to talk to. Yeah, Nur Abbas. And he brought up this magazine when I was 16 years old and said, you know, look on the back page. There's something I think you'd be interested in. And I rolled it up.

And later in the day, I opened it. And it was a picture of this bearded fellow. called Terence McKenna and it was an interview with him and there was lots I don't remember much of the details but I remember him being asked about his quote unquote favorite drug

this thing called DMT didn't say what it was other than that when you take it it takes you to this other world that's nothing like this world and that's filled with these strange beings called machine elves and I thought this is

incredible but it only lasts 15 minutes. You know, this fast-acting drug that will instantaneously transport you to some other reality that's just as real or more real than this world. I thought, well, you know,

that's even more interesting than psychedelics generally, is this particular psychedelic. So my next task was to find out what DMT even meant. You couldn't just Google it in those days. I remember I went to the local library in my city,

the central library and found one of those books of acronyms initialisms and looked at DMT and found dimethylterophyllate which is a type of plastic apparently so for a short period of time DMT in my head was dimethyl teraphylate

oops yeah then we got the internet as you just mentioned and there's only one internet in the school like you had to go collect this big black cable from a guy in a white coat the password the password

The password is mushroom. I remember that. That's perfect. And I would spend all my lunch break and any free periods I had. I was the only one who used it. No one else knew what this. It was so new the internet. No one really knew its power.

But I kind of did. I had a friend also had the internet in his house. And so I spent all my time just on Alta Vista, as you said, before Google. I'm just trying to find out all about DM. and how to extract it, how to, you know, which plants you can get it from and all that kind of stuff and all these different crazy experiences. Did you look into the history of it as well during those searches, or you're more interested in what Terence was talking about?

I was more interested in what it did. I became more interested in the history later on, but at that time this was just this naturally occurring molecule that seemed to have almost magical properties. And that was the beginning, really. That was the beginning of what turned out to be a 30-year journey, trying to understand DMT, what it does in the brain, and how it's able to achieve these remarkable effects on consciousness.

What did your family think about this new, hobby? Because clearly you told your brothers. Yes. Well, they didn't understand it, you see. I mean, they... I would, if I refer to it as DMT, then that's fine. If I use the word drugs, that's different matter. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, your book, Death by Astonishment, that's a Terrence McKenna quote. That is a Terrence Mechanic quote. So is that a bookend? Is that a tribute? Is that a thank you? Why did you choose that?

All of those things. Well, initially it had a completely different name that I'm not going to tell you. Okay. Um, which was okay. Uh, but I was writing, I was writing the book proposal. with my editor to submit to the publishing house. And in part of the proposal, I said, you know, DMT is this molecule that, as Terrence McKenna said,

the only risk is death by astonishment. And then I wrote in brackets, though actually that's a pretty good title, right? And I realize in retrospect is the perfect title. I mean, that's, I mean, it's sort of kind of a showstopper title, death by astonishment. And of course, it's a beautiful tribute to the late, great, Terence McKenna.

And so, yeah, that's kind of how that name came about. And I think it's a perfect name for the book. That is, you know, it's everything I know about DMT, everything I've come to learn over the last 30 years studying DMT. So this sparks interest in chemistry. Your PhD thesis, let me see if I can get this right. Is it the biogenesis of terrestrial and marine polycyclic ether?

Wow. Is that what it was? You've done your research, dude. Well, that doesn't sound like, that sounds like just marine biology and things like that. It has nothing to do with psychedelics. There's nothing to do with psychedelics. So is DMT still sort of this undercurrent while you're working through all this? Yeah, it always has been in a way.

You know, I've never worked in a quote-unquote psychedelic. research group or any kind of psychedelic lab or anything like that it's always been you know I kind of have many interests in in chemistry and in pharmacology as well as psychedelics but that's been the kind of the foundation that's running through all of it but my PhD at Cambridge yeah that was biological chemistry it's basically trying to understand how these often exquisitely complex molecules that are produced by plants and microorganisms, you know, how are they actually stitched together and made inside microorganisms? That's something that I really fell in love with during my first degree, the kind

of the, it's called biosynthesis, how complex organic molecule are constructed inside living beings. And I thought, I want to study that for my PhD. And so I went up to Cambridge and worked in a group that specialized in that thing. But all the time still, I was thinking and writing about DMT. And then after I finished my PhD, I did a postdoc again at Cambridge. And then I thought there's something missing from my intellectual repertoire, should we put it like that, in that I understood the chemistry, I understood the pharmacology, that kind of low, low level.

stuff, molecules interacting with living systems, that was all kind of under my belts, shall we say. But I still didn't feel that I was sufficiently sophisticated in the neurosciences. I thought I need to move up to the kind of the higher level of the neurosciences. And so I did two postdocs in computational neuroscience, kind of the forefront, I think, of neuroscience, trying to understand how the brain works by using computational and mathematical models. So I went to the University of York and then University of Oxford, did two postdocs in computational neuroscience, and then finally my final postdoc, which actually the longest one, lasted for seven years,

was at the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology in Japan. So I needed a job after my penultimate postdoc finished, and there was this position in Okinawa. I thought, why not? I didn't have ties in England at the time. So I thought, oh, why not move to Okinawa? What was the position? Was it a mainstream type of job?

It was a post-doctoral research fellowship, basically another postdoc. Okay. But this was in computational neuroscience as well. And I spent seven years kind of modeling very small pieces of the brain, basically, individual neurons in the brain, trying to understand how they speak to each other

and how they strengthen and weaken their connections, all connected to memory and neural function generally. So you were building this DMT research foundation the whole time? Yes, that's how I see it, is that I was, most people kind of specialize at one level. You know, if you're a chemist, you study the molecules. If you're a pharmacologist, you're interested in drug receptor interactions. If you're neuroscientists, you're interested in how kind of the global effects on neural activity.

But I think really to understand psychedelics, you need to kind of span all of those. You need to understand all the way from the lowest level, the molecules, all the way up to global neural activity. So I finished my postdoc in Okinawa after seven years, and I thought, right, I'm leaving the academy. I've sort of graduated and I don't want to be, I wanted to kind of de-institutionalize myself and just focus on writing, basically. We cover a lot of things on this show that the mainstream would rather you not think too hard about. Here's one that's not even controversial. $39 trillion in debt, money being printed to cover it, and that dollar buys less every year. So what do you do with that information?

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But the thought of being that person horrified me. The thought that I would be, you know, like my professor, going to meetings and managing funding and managing students, all that stuff. And it never had any interest in it. When you're a postdoc, you have a lot of freedom. You kind of do your own thing. But once you get to that level where a lecturer, a professor, then you have to start taking on all these other responsibilities that takes over your life. And I could never invest as much time as I wanted into my passion, which is DMT and writing about DMT. I always wanted to be a writer, ultimately. There's a lot of training required to write about these things. Sure. So, you know, it's 20 years, I guess, before I was able to kind of make the leap,

give up my fairly well-paid position in Okinawa and basically go from a decent salary to absolute zero salary in a single day. That's kind of scary. And there's no option to move back to my parents if I fuck up because they're over in the UK. So it's like, this goes wrong. I'm in deep trouble in Tokyo.

So I move from Okinawa to Tokyo, which is where I live now. and that's where I've been for the last four years. Fortunately, I didn't majorly fuck up. I think things are okay. Well, I mean, Tokyo's fascinating because Japan has very strict drug laws, and they're getting stricter if I, I mean, I think cannabis they just banned. How is it, is it a culture issue for you?

Is it? So people, I think when people say Japan is very anti-drugs, what they're actually referring to is methamphetamine and cannabis. Okay. the two biggies, right? Methamphetamine for very specific historical reasons, post-World War II, there was this huge wave of methamphetamine use throughout the nation. A lot of military supplies kind of were released onto the public market. It was perfectly legal at the time. There were millions of people in Japan using meth regularly, and then they banned it,

and then all of these little clandestine laboratories started popping up in Osaka in 1952 in just one year there are like 50 labs that were raided just in one city you know it's like breaking bad all these little met labs everywhere sure sure like in new mexico or something you don't imagine that that's possible in japan but it really was so and this was a time when the japanese were literally a defeated nation and they thought this met could be the end of them, like an existential threat to their very civilization. And so that is a kind of, I guess, I hate that word, generational trauma. But it feels like that. You mention meth and people, there's still that sense of meth.

Yeah, because you have to figure the Americans brought it there. What, meth? Yeah. And certainly amphetamins. So methamphetamine actually was invented by Japanese chemist in the late 19th. century. It was. Nagai, yes, Nagayoshi, Nagai. Yeah, everyone thinks it's either the Americans or the Germans people I get, but it's actually... Well, those are two countries everybody blames for everything. Of course. But it's actually a Japanese chemist. I didn't know that.

Japanese chemist, yes, from ephodrine. So ephrodrin is the molecule that you can convert, you know, pseudephedrine they use basically the same molecule, but slightly different geometrically. But anyway, effedrine, you can convert directly to methamphetamine. And he was well. working with ephodrin, at the time this Chinese herb that had various uses. And then he synthesized methamphetamine. And it was basically forgotten about for a number of decades. It wasn't seen to be that important until people started reporting on its effects on alertness and mood and that kind of thing.

And the Japanese were using it during the Second World War, specifically. They used to create these little green tablets that were mixed with green tablets. so the bright green, they would stamp them with the emperor's crest. So it almost became like, what's the word I'm looking for? But anyway, it was very much sanctioned by the authorities, you know, the imperial Japanese authorities at the time. Japanese soldiers were using the kamikaze, for example. Sure.

We're using methamphetamine, and he would elevate them, would increase their kind of fighting, fighting spirit. Sure. And they don't have to worry about long-term effects. They don't worry about long-term effects, quite literally, yeah. And then after the war, they had all these stockpiles that made it into the market. And then the government, Japanese government, actually banned powdered forms of meth. So they started making liquid forms, injecting it. So they had a huge injection problem with meth.

Probably the most intense way to take it. And, you know, school children were using it. high school students, housewives, laborers, whatever. Everyone was using meth in kind of the late 1940s and early 1950s until it was banned. And then they really cracked down on it. It's like a moral panic.

I mean, amphetamine salts seem to be everywhere anyway, right? Yeah. So DMT first synthesized in 1931, first found to be psychoactive in 1956. And that was Stephen Zahar, right? Stephen Zara was the first to inject pure DMT. Now, this is at the same time where LSD is of popular psychedelic and psychiatric research. Why did LSD catch on and DMT basically disappeared until McKenna?

Right, yeah. I mean, that was, so, yeah, you're right. So during that period, there was a flurry of these molecules that were either discovered or invented and LSD was the main one at the time and Zara actually Stephen Zara was this Hungarian physician working behind the iron curtain

in communist Hungary and he wanted to work with LSD and he wrote to Sandoz the only company that was producing LSD at the time said can I have some LSD please I want to start working on it and I said no no no we're not sending LSD into bloody communists

No, no. Nope. And so he said, I need something else. And he thought about mescaline. He ordered some mescaline from the UK, and that arrived safely. And he took his first dose of mescaline on Christmas Day and had this wonderful experience in a church. What was he trying to achieve? What was the purpose of his experiments?

Well, he was interested in, he was a psychiatrist. Ah. Right? So he's interested in, you know, at the most fundamental level, he was interested in the human mind and how he might study the human mind. But he's also interested in, you know, could these molecules find uses in psychiatry, treatment for various sort of neuropsychological disorders? So he tried mescaline. And then he found this paper.

There was a paper that was, so there was this plant called Anadenahthera Peregrina, which is this Yopo, this snuff. Scientists had just come to understand, had been used by various tribal peoples, indigenous peoples in South America for perhaps thousands of years and was said to induce what seemed to be like psychedelic effects. They would go to other worlds

and they would speak with these strange, discarnate beings which they thought were like demons or something but no one knew how it worked and so they they started to analyze it this kind of the first study analyzing these seeds from this peregrina plant and they found two molecules in there one was buphotonine which is five hydroxy dimethylptamine it was five meryr no that's five mothoxy ah okay yeah so five 5-M-E-O-D-MT is 5-Mothoxy D-MT, if you take that methyl group off, like carbon, you get 5 hydroxy, just hydroxyl group. That's buphotonin. That was a known molecule.

And it was known that when you injected it into prisoners, that's the way you did it in those days, you found a group of prisoners that were normally imprisoned for using drugs, normally young black men, basically. And you would inject them with drugs and see what happened. and buphotonin was one that had already been tested and was found to have mildly mind-altering effects. Generally, it made people very nauseous and their face went purple, and they started vomiting, and it's very unpleasant. But they found that molecule in this Yopo seed, and they thought, well, that must be the kind of the central psychoactive molecule in this. They also found another molecule called DMT, dimethyltomethyptamine, and they just ignored it, which is a huge mistake. Until Stephen Zara read this paper, and he thought,

Bufhotanine, no, that doesn't make any sense. It's not particularly psychoactive. So why would that be this, why would that be regarded as this molecule that would transport you to other worlds and allow you to communicate with discarnant intelligences? That didn't make any sense. So the only other option was DMT. That was also in the seed, and it'd be ignored. So we thought, okay, I'll just, I'll give it a go.

You know, no one has tried this. So he synthesized it. He made 10 grams in his laboratory in 1956, and he started swallowing it, first of all, increasing the dosage. You went up to like a gram of DMT. Nothing happened. Nothing happened.

We know why now, but at that time, we didn't know. So he was ready to give up, basically. He didn't try insufflating it. He didn't snorting it. He didn't snort it. He didn't snort it, no? That might have worked though, no? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That might have worked. It would have been painful, but it might have worked. So basically he was like ready to give up. Maybe his hunch was wrong. And then a friend, a colleague, says, have you tried injecting it? I haven't. So we injected it into, I think it was a cat or a rabbit.

I think it was a cat for some reason. And the cat kind of started behaving strangely. You know, it was having some kind of effect. I don't mean to laugh. I'm a cat guy. I'm a cat man as well. So, you know, satisfied that it wasn't lethal, at least in cats. Yeah, we shouldn't laugh.

People complain whenever I tell this story because of core cat. And it's true, but different times, different times. Yeah, so then he ejected. it into himself. So sometime in April in 1956, he injected it into his intramuscularly. And yeah, the rest, as they say, his history. He had this, started seeing these fantastical patterns and rapidly, procession of rapidly changing geometric imagery or moving very quickly. He, you know, he was having a DMT trip. And so then he started recruiting colleagues, so doctors, nurses from where he worked. Things were much simple in the

those days. You didn't need a foul form. Get an ethical approval. DEA, wasn't he right? And Jekshed it into various people, healthy volunteers. And they started describing what we now recognize as the classic effects of DMT. They would start going to describe going,

losing awareness of the normal waking world and going to these strange world filled with gods and spirits. Well, let me back you up. Just a second. Yeah, yeah. So why DMT didn't catch on still? So he's synthesized it.

It works, but LSD still is the one that MK Ultra and everybody, Sidney Gottlieb goes there. Yeah. Yeah. So after, so Zara started publishing these papers. So the very first awareness anyone would have had

that DMT was even psychoactive as a psychedelic would have been Stephen Zara's papers. So that was in the late 1950s, from 1956 up to kind of 1960. He published several papers in healthy people, in schizophrenics and that kind of thing. So the data was all there. The problem was, is that, well, LSD had its foothold by then. It was extremely potent, potent meaning you need a very small amount of the molecule to achieve the desired effect. So you could, you know, in one gram, you've got 100,000 doses or something like that.

And whereas with DMT, and you could swallow LSD, drop it on your tongue, dissolve it in lots of paper, very, very simple to distribute. Whereas with DMT, one, it was much less potent in terms of the amount you needed. Instead of 50 micrograms, you needed 30 to 50 milligrams, and you needed to inject it. That was a big issue.

People didn't like to mess with needles, certainly in the West. And so it was kind of an exotic psychedelic. If you were in the know, and you had access to a well-stock dealer in the 1960s, you could find DMT. William Burroughs, for example, he was probably the first person to take DMT outside of a clinical setting. He injected it. That's right. I forgot about that. Yeah, Leary as well. And he's, Burroughs, one of the great thinkers of his time.

was and he had a really important role actually in in working out how ayahuasca worked did he yeah we can get to that okay yeah but um so yeah William Burroughs took it William Burroughs was horrified um he he took too much one day and he found himself in this what he called the white white hot lattice ovens the soulless insect people were kind of menacing him and he was he was appalled and he thought this is the absolute horror show of all drugs and nobody should be taking this and so he wrote this kind of breathless letter of warning to timothy leary and timothy leary at the time it wasn't particularly well known he was kind of a neophyte you know this kind of tweed jacketed Harvard psychologist who had just that year um had been to mexico and had his first experience with solososophy mushrooms

um so he was well primed for DMT um but borrers wrote this letter saying stay away from DMT it's a nightmare the nightmare the nightmare hallucinogen he called it but of course Timothy Leary Larry said challenge accepted challenge accepted um and so Leary spoke to a psychiatrist friend who said that you know he'd injected people with DMT and 90% had a terrible experience really yeah yeah we don't exactly know who this was but he said it's uh a psychiatrist working in LA who was injecting people with with DMT in his office and he said that 90% had a bad experience we don't know why that is but Leary said Lerie was just kind of formulating his set and setting hypothesis that really came from Leary the idea that the nature of your

psychotic experience comes down to the setting where are you who is with you and also your mind set and so he thought okay maybe if the set and setting is right. So you're not in a clinician's psychiatrist's office. She's where sick people go, right, where crazy people go. But in fact, in a beautiful environment, can you actually induce a more pleasant experience? So Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, who's one of his kind of partners in crime, shall we say, during that era, they were both injected with DMT and both had incredible, beautiful experiences. Timothy Leary described these angelic beings like elf-like insects.

He was the first person to really use that term elf in describing the DMT state and now elves are the most famous beings within the DMT space. Well, most, just about everybody listening, they've never taken DMT and probably never will. So we don't have to talk about our personal experiences if you don't want to. I don't mind. But can you describe from that first inhale, what do you see? How does it feel?

And this is not a recreational drug, folks. This is not a recreational drug. It's not a party drug. No, it is not. It's a dark, quiet room lying on your bed kind of drug. So my first experience of DMT way, way back, in a place where it was completely legal. Well, if we're going to talk about yours, then you have to tell me what led up to it. How did you get the courage?

Were you just like, well, I have to do it now? Yeah, I mean, I'd reached the stage where I'd been studying DM, I've been fascinated by DMT for the best part of a decade. And I'd read all, by that point, all the Terrence McKenna books, listen to his lectures and it was like, okay, I need to find this molecule and actually try it. Otherwise, I'm just talking blindly. And so I managed through unspecified means to acquire some DMT in an unspecified location at an unspecified time. And I'll kind of talk you through what happened to me. So I had a glass pipe and I loaded it with what I thought was around sort of 50 milligrams of DMT.

And I first of all, I tried to, now we have these great vaporizing glation system. In those days, I just had a lighter. No volcano bag. No, nothing like that. It was all very, very basic, you know, like a crack pipe, basically. And I didn't really know what I was doing. And so I was heating it and it tasted awful. The smell is terrible.

A lot of it was burning probably, so it was smoke, you know, horrible acreage smoke as well. I couldn't get enough in my lungs and I was, I basically gave up for the evening. And then just as I was about to go to bed, like 2 o'clock in the morning, I think it was. I saw the pipe on the desk beside me and I thought, okay, one more quick attempt. And I was a bit more relaxed this time for some reason. and I started inhaling the vapor, and then something happened. I just remember this ping,

this very distinct sound, like a very high-pitched pinging sound that was completely different to early in the evening, and somehow I knew that something was happening. So I continued inhaling. Then I had to put the pipe down, I laid down, and I was hurtled at great speed through this, indescribably complex geometric imagery.

People like, I can't English it. It's un-Englishable. But straight away, and I don't know how I knew this, but I knew this with every fibre of my being, that I was, I wasn't just in a place, but I was in a place that was constructed by the hand of an immense and timeless. intelligence that was vast, much older, far billions, trillions of years older than our universe,

than our reality, more advanced, just indescribably strange. And when you're there, you know it to be true. You know it to be true. I'd no shadow of a doubt. And that's what was so horrifying for me at the time. It was shocking because I was expecting just the kind of going to a dream world and see elves dancing around. You know, I'd got all this stuff from McKenna. Had you done other, like, magic mushrooms or things before? Mushrooms, MDMA. Okay.

Not really a psychedelic, but yeah, I was familiar with the effects of drugs when they come on. Right. So when you start, things start to change, you're like, okay, I've been here before. Yeah. It's, it's that breakthrough. That's like, what is this? It's so fast. With mushrooms, it builds, and you feel the energy, and you can, it's kind of, settle into it. But with this, it's like rocket ship, like a roller coaster. One moment,

everything's normal, and then literally 20, 30 seconds later, you're just being fired into this place that's completely on, there's no way I could have predicted it or anticipated what this was going to be like. I could have read all the books about DMT and listened to every single Terence McKenna lecturer in existence. And I still wouldn't even be close to what this was. It was truly ontologically shocking. Yes. That this place existed and it was right there and it was far more advanced

and it was this hyper-technological space that was built by the hand of an alien intelligence. I didn't see entities dancing around but I felt the immensity and the undenibility of this presence and it lasted two or three minutes. I don't remember all the details.

I remember start. I lost any aware. of not just myself, but of even the concept of humanity. And that lasted not long, two, three minutes. Then gradually I started to get these little fragments of memories of having been a human, as if my brain was kind of piecing back together, my humanity. It's very strange that come down is like that. You start to become human again. you become human again.

It's very, that only a couple of minutes. So, yeah, it's because of that janky method where, yeah, yeah, I don't want to give people too much information, but even if vaporized properly, we're talking, what, 15, 20 minutes most. Yeah, I mean, the peak itself, I mean, you get into the peak within a minute, inside a minute. Then you're there in the breakthrough state, probably between three, four, five, six, seven, minutes and then you start to come down and then the after effects will last yeah 15 20 minutes you know when when I came back I just laid on my bed on my back all I could say was I was shaking and I said oh my fucking God that's all I could say that I couldn't believe what it just happened

to me I could not believe it I remember writing a message to my brand you know on Facebook Messenger or something this is the most I was just I was I was euphoric but shocked at the same time. It's like, my God, this really is it. You know, Terrence McKenna wasn't joking here. This is something, wow, I need to. Yeah, this is not melting walls or seeing colors. It is not.

No, no. I mean, one of the first, I read a book, I had a little section on psychedelics, and described DMT as like, a bit like LSD, but much shorter acting like 15 minutes. And people, some people will go into it thinking, that's what it is just like taking LSD but very short duration but it's not. Nope.

You cannot be prepared for it in a way, I don't think. You can't anticipate or predict what it's going to be like and it will shock you. The death by astonishment, you know, going back to that, he was only half joking when he said that because true astonishment, I think, is a very rare emotion. Now we kind of use it to mean mildly surprised. Right. That true astonishment where your mind cannot even begin to comprehend the immensity of something, that's what DMT delivers.

And you can't really explain it. It can't explain that your ego kind of dissolves into this oneness with everything, and everything makes total sense. At the time it does. It does. Yeah. In psychedelic therapy, there's something called integration. Did you do any type of integration work?

Post trip? No. I mean, this was, integration's big thing now, but at the time, maybe it was in certain specialist circles, but at the time, I didn't really know what integration was. But in a way, it's like, it's so fast. And although, yeah, for 15, 20 minutes, I was shaking and I was shocked by the next morning, it's like my brain had kind of thought, okay, we'll get, we'll compose. compartmentalize that somewhere.

Yeah. Let's put that away. We'll put that away. So there wasn't any lingering after effects or anything like that. Neurologically, it's a very benign molecule. It's not going to hurt you physiologically. Right. But your world, your entire ontological foundation of your reality is going to be obliterated.

That's the problem. Yes. And I don't recommend doing it alone. definitely not with open flame. No, no, no, no. Because you're going to be careful, just be careful, guys. Be so careful with it. Best way to try it would be, I think, using DMTX

that you and Strassman created. It's probably a good way to explore it. Coming up on a break, when we come back, I want to talk a little bit of chemistry. Sure. Maybe you can convince us that those entities are not hallucinations. I'll be my best. All right back.

So let me see if I can get this right. We've got tryptophan gets decarboxylated into triptamine. IMNT gets involved. Then we've got two stages of methylating to get to DMT. Is that about right? Yeah. That sounds like a pretty expensive process to keep in human biology or all biology. So what is the evolutionary purpose of DMT in all these living things?

Okay, yeah, so it's actually, you know, compared to most molecules, I mean, let's say LSD, right, LSD is not natural, it's semi-synthetic, but it's derived from lysurgic acid amide, which is natural and it's far more complex than DMT. DMT is actually not only the most common naturally occurring psychedelic, found in countless plant species, hundreds. But it's also the simplest. You go, as you said, you go from triptophan, you get to tryptamine, and then one step. Then you've got another step, which is this dimethylatolation by Indol N-Methyl transferase, I-N-M-T. Right. And so it's just two simple steps from triptophan, this amino acid. So that's really, to me, there's something uncanny about that.

You would have this simple molecule that's everywhere. You know, you walk through your local park and there's probably half a dozen different plant species all busily, silently constructing the world's strangest. Yes. Psychedelic drug and you've no idea. And it's also found in humans. We've known that since the 1950s when people started getting schizophrenics to line up and be in a bottle, basically. Sure. Yeah, they found it with urine tests.

Right, exactly. So why is it there? I don't think anyone's got a definitive answer. So I can't give you a definitive answer. Usual answers are, well, it's an insect repellent, or it's some kind of, it's used to, as kind of an anti-feeding and antipredation kind of molecule. It affects the neurochemistry of insects, let's say.

We know that psilocybin does that, for example. Sure. that it would dissuade organisms, you know, predators from feeding on a plant by producing DMT. I don't like that one. I don't like that either. It doesn't explain why. Because any mammal's stomach would break it down. That's what you'd think you see as well.

Yes. So the short answer, and the not very exciting answer, is we don't really know why it's there. We don't know why it's in humans. We don't know why it's in plants. but it is and it's very easy to make and it's just two steps from tryptophan so it's not like many molecules

you have to go through many many steps or something like morphine for example there's many steps to get to morphine but to get to DMT it's very simple so basically all living organisms probably have the enzymatic machinery to make DMT

including humans so it feels almost like you have this message in some way about this other place that's kind of embedded within our reality but it takes a certain amount of intelligence in order to decode that message

you can't just munch on plants and have a psychedelic trip like you could with mushrooms you can eat as many plants as you like never going to have any effect you need to isolate the molecule and actually like Stephen Zara as it did and that took humans all the way up until the 1950s

to actually work out what this molecule was and how to use it, techniques that are to administer it. From a chemistry perspective, why are those methyl, those bolt-on methyl groups so powerful? Because it's basically a serotonin molecule, yes? Yeah, so serotonin is five hydroxy-tryptamine. So if you remove that hydroxy group, you get tryptamine,

which has no effect. It doesn't get across the blood-brain barrier very efficiently at all. If you inject someone with serotonin, sorry, with tryptamine, there are no psychoactive effects. So that methylation makes the molecule slightly more fatty, shall we say, more lipid, oil-soluble, allows it to get very, very rapidly into the brain. And then it binds to this specific set of receptors, the most famous one being the serotonin 5HT2A receptor. And this is responsible for its effects. And we want to get into the neuroscience.

We can talk through exactly how that process works. I'd love to, if you don't mind. I don't mind. Please. Yeah, so psychedelics, so what are known as the classic psychedelics. So DMT, LSD, psilocybin, Escaline, those are the most famous ones. They all work mainly through the serotonin receptor called the 5802A receptor. So there are many serotonin receptors, and they all have different functions.

What a receptor does broadly, receptors are embedded in the membrane of neurons. The neurons are these information-generating cells of your brain. They generate little electrochemical spikes, which you can think of as like binary digits almost, on and off. That's all a neuron really can do. It can fire. It's called an action potential, a spike, or it can be quiet. It's like a one and a zero. And neurons are generating these action potentials all the time or not. And then they have these chemical connections called synapses that allows them to share information.

All of these millions of neurons that are connected in your, that form your cortex, cerebral cortex in your brain. And the receptors, of all different types of receptors, for all different types of receptors, types of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators and other neurochemicals. These chemicals bind to these receptors and they affect the way the neuron behaves. They're like tuning dials, if you like, for the neurons. And the 5HT2A receptor specifically is what's called an excitatory receptor. It excites the neuron. It makes it more likely to fire these electrochemical spikes,

and it makes it more likely to fire when it receives stimulation from another neuron. So it excites the cortex broadly. Are we finding that psychedelics, those neurotransmitters, are concentrated in the specific parts of the brain? So the cortex. So let's talk a little bit about the cortex. So you have this outer layer of your brain,

this folded outer layer, which is called the cerebral cortex, the newest part of the brain, evolutionary. And it has several layers, kind of six layers, broadly. And each layer of the cortex has a different function. In terms of its connectivity, whether it's receiving input or it's more like an output layer or it's more of an interconnection layer, that kind of thing. And the cortex is responsible for constructing your world model. This is absolutely fundamental. The world you experience now, the subjective world you experience, the structure, the content, the dynamics, everything you're experiencing that's in your visual world

is being constructed by your brain. Your brain isn't like a video camera, it's kind of taking pictures of the outside world. It has to construct a model of the environment that may or may not resemble the true structure of the environment, which we never have direct access to. So you're always living in kind of a, like a waking dream, a sense you know annual seth calls it a waking hallucination i don't really like that term but anyway but later i think we'll get into uh your work with donald hoffman and and his theories which are really interesting yeah absolutely yeah that's a completely different take on the whole thing

much more fundamental but if he sticks to the kind of the brain level you have this world model that's being always being constructed by your brain and we know this because you can manipulate your brain, if I remove the top of your skull and start playing around with an electrode in there, I can change your world. Sure. Right? Nothing in the outside of the environment changes, but your world changes. I can make you see colorful patterns.

I can make you hear voices. And just by stimulating different parts of the brain that are responsible for generating different aspects, if you like, of your world. So we know that that's the case. And if you take a psychedelic, what does that do? changes your world. It binds to these 5HT2A receptors that are concentrated in layer 5 of the cortex, one of the deeper layers of the cortex. And what that does is it kind of shakes up your world model. The world model stops being kind of very rigid and well-defined and becomes much

more fluid and dynamic because these neurons are being stimulated by this 5HT2A receptor. The neurons start firing more often. They start sharing information between each other. So this very, very rigid and precisely constructed world model, which is the one you're using to kind of make sense of the environment, starts to change, things start to loosen up, objects might start to morph or change their identity. This is happening because of this stimulation by the psychedelic. But with DMT, something, DMC seems to kind of transcend all of that,

goes beyond that. So you can actually measure, if you put someone in an MRI machine, this work was initially done by Robin Carrard Harris, who's now at University of California, San Diego. Might have got that wrong, but anyway, a university in California, maybe San Francisco. But anyway, if you put someone in a MRI machine

and give them, inject them with psilocybin, for example, you can actually see how their brain activity changing. So normally, you can see the brain kind of moving between states in a very controlled manner, as your brain is kind of constructing your world. But then when you give psilocybin, that activity starts to look more random, it's as if the brain is moving more freely from state to state. And so that kind of... You mean TMT is more freely?

With psilocybin, right? Or LSD. But, and so you can kind of measure the entropy, so the randomness in neural activity. Right. What you see is you go from this baseline level where the brain is kind of ordered. And then you start to see this increase in randomness. It goes up like this. And this kind of maps quite well with the subjective experience. the world becomes more fluid.

Your thinking becomes much more fluid and dynamic. It's like heating up a piece of glass. The glass is very rigid and you heat it up and it starts to melt and you can kind of mold it to any kind of shape. Psychedelics are kind of doing that to the brain, doing that to your world model, and that's why you have the effects of psychedelics. But with DMT, something different seems to happen.

You get this initial increase in randomness, but it's as if the brain suddenly collapses into this new order. So you go from the old order, the original order, which is the normal waking world model, into this more fluid and dynamic state. And then at the breakthrough, it's like the brain has collapsed into this entirely new order, which is this entirely new novel, entirely alien world.

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Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Part of what's going on, yeah. The ego is an interesting concept in that. it's not that well defined, but there are certain networks in the brain that we think are responsible. The default mode network is the one that's spoken about a lot. Sure. Responsible for the sense of self as distinct from the other, from the environment.

And what psychedelics do is because of this stimulation of these 5HT2A receptors, those networks start to break down and that order starts to break down. So you have all of these effects, psychological, subjective effects. on the world, old effects on your sense of self, they all start to break down. And the higher the dose becomes, the more pronounced those effects appear to be. But with DMT, it's not like there's just an increase in randomness, because the DMT is not, the MT world is not random. It is very coherent, exquisitely complex, staggeringly coherent narrative complexity.

It's like literally as if the normal. Awaken world has been switched off. Yep. And a new world. It's like those old radio sets where you go from dial. You get one channel, then you twist it and it's kind of noisy. Yeah, that's kind of psychedelics. And then finally, if you twist it enough, this entirely new, crisp, clear channel crackables

through the speakers. And that's kind of what DMT is doing. And you've called that world navigable. It is navigable, yeah. Excuse me. for most people it's not navigable for most people it's just like hold on but with with experience yes you can navigate this world yes but the problem is the problem I have with the kind of the standard explanation of this EMT state is that

that that this normal waking world is a world that your brain kind of evolved to construct at the moment that you emerge from the womb. Your brain is constantly sampling sensory information from the environment through the eyes, etc. And using it to kind of construct this world model. That's the only world model your brain knows how to build or should know how to build. It's like if you grow up speak in English, you can't speak any other languages unless you learn them. And in the same way, this normal waking world should be the only world your brain knows how to construct. But when you take DMT, your brain starts constructing these entirely alien worlds that are far more

complex, far more intricate, far more coherent, and far more real feeling than the normal waking world. It's not like dream. When people dream, they tend to dream of people. They tend to dream of animals. People in the Midwest will dream of people. They will dream of dogs and cats, right? if you ask someone who lives in the Amazon rainforests, what they dream of, they'll dream of catching stingrays, they'll dream of the animals that they will find in their environment. This is obvious in a way. When you dream, your brain is simply constructing the normal waking world. Dream is like continuous, really, with the normal waking world.

The brain is using those models that it knows to construct a world in the absence of sensory which is what dreaming is. So that kind of makes sense. So why then? Not DMT. Not DMT. Your brain starts constructing these worlds that it shouldn't know how to build.

Well, take us through the world. Take us through the world. So, and maybe we can talk about DMTX because that's, that's the protocol you develop with Rick Strasman. And so this is intravenous DMT. Yeah.

Keeping you in that stake for a long, how long? How long? How long is a piece of string, if you answer to that question? Okay. So, yeah, so Rick Strasman, as many people will know, he did the world's largest DMT study in the 1990s, injected them with DMT, what's called a bolus injection, so all the DMT at once, or within like 30 seconds.

You get a very rises in the brain. They have this breakthrough experience, and then almost as soon as it reaches the peak in the brain, it starts to metabolize and excreted. And so there's this exponential drop-off. And then when you reach a certain level in the brain, you come out of the DMT state. And so if you really want to study the DMT state, you know, it's geometry, it's topology, that the entities, the language, all that kind of stuff, you need to be in there for a lot longer. And so it occurred to me back in sort of 2015 that DMT, so I was aware of this technique from anesthesiology

called Target Control intravenous infusion, which is a technique they use. in anesthesiology during surgery. So what they don't do, when someone puts you to sleep, they don't just inject you with a drug. They inject you with a very fast-acting anesthetic. If they just injected it, you'd be asleep for a few minutes. But they use what's called an infusion device, an infusion machine. So they deliver, using a programmed infusion protocol,

they deliver the anesthetic into your bloodstream, the aim being to keep your brain anesthetic concentration fairly constant so they can keep you anesthetized for as long as they want as soon as they stop the machine a few minutes later you'll wake up beautiful thing and they can manipulate the depth of your anesthesia as well so this has been the mainstay of anesthesiology for decades and it occurred to me that the kind of the requisite properties of the anesthetic drug are the same as DMT needs to be short-acting and It can't build up in the bloodstream. It can't have subjective tolerance, right?

So the effect of the drug must remain constant throughout whilst you're anesthetized, otherwise you'd start to wake up, even though the drug was still pumping into your brain. DMT has that as well. Rick Strasman showed that you can inject someone with DMT and you can measure the intensity of the experience using his rating scale.

Then you can inject them again 30 minutes later and they will have the same intensity of experience. You can repeat that. over and over again. So it occurred to me, I thought, wait, you know, DMT has all of these properties that we need for target-controlled intravenous infusion. So why don't we work together, me and Rick, and actually develop a model for this, a mathematical model of DMT's distribution, metabolism, excretion that you need to build this kind of target-controlled intravenous infusion model, but just replaced the anesthetic drug with DMT. So I wrote to Rick and I said, I have this

idea and I need your data, his blood data, because you need blood sampling data, to build this model. And he had it on some old hard drive, this old Excel file, which he kindly sent to me. And we set to work. We built this model. Did you have to convince him or talk him into it or explain the protocol? No. I think he, when he wrote DMT the spirit molecule in 2000, he mentioned towards the end of the book that maybe an infusion would be better. So it wasn't an entirely alien idea to him and said you know when I came along with this very concrete proposal to write this paper we'd call it extended state DMT later it became known as DMT X and we published this model kind of a proof of principle

basically to say this should work we didn't know if it would work but it should work we should be able to stabilize the DMT state hold someone there for 30 minutes an hour two hours three hours however long And then that got a lot of attention. And the Imperial College team in London picked it up and said, okay, let's do this in humans. Let's see if it actually works. And in, I think, 2020 around that time,

they recruited a dozen people for a pilot study and were able to indeed show. Just 30 minutes, but 30 minutes is a lot longer than normal DMT to it. They were able to stabilize the DMT study. and maintain fairly stable intensity of experience. And since then, a number of groups have kind of extended this to two, three hours. I now work with a company called Illusis, E-L-E-U-S-I-S in the Caribbean,

and we've got a special license to actually bring anyone onto the island and to undergo several DMT-X sessions with qualified medical practitioners, psychiatrist, anesthesiologist, and anyone now can basically spend as much time as they like, really, within the DMT space exploring. And so, you know, go to elucismind.com and you can also, you know, kind of sign up and spend a few days on the island. Elisys went live in March, right? Yes. So the first cohort was in March. The first cohort. So what are people seeing? well we we it's very early days um so we don't kind of have kind of published reports or anything but

the but are we all seeing the waiting room navigating the space the entities so when the imperial college team published their um DMTX study they um we actually i actually did a like an online webinar with all of the or several of the participants me and graham hancock actually chaired it that's still online people can find that basically for andrew gallim or graham court she about to find that and we spoke to several of them including the first subject zero as i call in karl smith he was the first person to undergo dmtx in a controlled kind of research setting it was five doses increasing doses and I think every couple of weeks

they'd go in they'd be injected infused with DMT for 30 minutes and then we got to speak to them about their experiences and the thing about DMT is that it's a very varied experience and no two experiences are always the same however Carl Smith particularly

he's one of my colleagues at New Nautics, we're both directors. He found that the entities, over the sessions, because there were several, you know, five sessions of the MTX, the entities started to notice that he was coming back rather too often

and spending a little bit too much time in there. And he describes the sense that the entities were saying, not you again, you're back again, as if there was this kind of continuity between the experience. They weren't totally isolated experiences, but there was this continuity between the experiences. And during one experience, one DMTX session, he was being scanned by some machine.

This is in the normal waking world, right? Like an MRI machine or something. And he was being scanned, his brain was being scanned. And the entities were aware of this. The entities kind of rushed in. And he said they seemed a little bit confused. Like they're the ones normally doing the scanning and not whatever this was. They didn't seem to understand what was going on.

Most people, when they take DMT, they aren't being scammed. They're doing it in the backroom or basement or something. Did he describe what they look like? He didn't. No, he didn't describe what they looked like. But he said there were very, very large numbers of, they were crowding in, as if they'd seen something going on and they came crowded in. And there was another guy called Anton Bilton.

He actually funded the study. He has this great institute called the Turingham Institute and has these wonderful private symposia every few years. And he funded it and he said, I want to be a subject since I'm paying for this bloody thing. Not a cheap study by any stretch of the imagination. And he described an experience where he found himself in like the waiting room kind of.

of place with these morphing geometric walls and these beings who were looking down upon him he called them the gingerbread men these elfish like beings small beings and they seemed to be said they they always check the back of my neck always do this i don't know why he said the only thing i can think is they were checking to see if there was a cord attached whether i'd kind of passed permanently to their side wow yeah and then um When they were satisfied that he hadn't, that he was kind of there temporarily, they started showing him things. And one thing that happens quite regularly is they show you devices that are kind of like an electronic, some kind of mechanical device or electronic device, like a jewel-encrusted pad, he described it.

which is interesting, right? It's like, imagine an iPad, I guess, with knobs and wheels and dials and numbers, all this kind of stuff, and trying of showing it to him as if he was supposed to do something with it or make sense of it. But of course he couldn't.

But this term, dual-encrusted pad, is very interesting because Timothy Leary back in the 1960s, he wasn't aware of this, Anton, but I said to him, dual-encrusted pad, is that your terminology? He said, yeah, that's how I describe it. because Timothy Leary back in the 1960s says that these elf-like insect beings were proffering this dual-incrusted pad like a device that was some kind of futuristic iPad thing.

Would an Amazonian see that? Because they'd have no context for anything like that. Right. Would they see that? That's a good question. We don't know, right? This is the kind of study that needs to be done is get people who are completely naive to pure injection. DMP and bring them in and see what do they see because the experience is like to be very

different to ayahuasca for a number of reasons but but yeah do they see the same kind of technological devices or do they not and you know what what is the reason for that but but yeah there's always this sense that you're interacting with some kind of extremely advanced species extremely advanced cognitively intellectually technologically like a hyper-technological kind of species or ecology and they they seem often eager to show you things devices multiple impossible things you know nine-dimensional faberje eggs parents McKenney used to describe them you know just weird things liquid light crystal machine

strings, you know, things that you can't really, but just things, that kind of thing, as if they're trying to impart some kind of information or trying to make you understand, but you don't understand. And that's what's so frustrating about it. And Anton in the same way, when he was presented with this jewel-encrusted pad, he couldn't make any sense of it. And eventually they just gave up and they kind of, there was like a, like a swipe as if, and the whole scene completely changed. It was in this completely different environment. Yeah, so lots of very strange experiences coming out. But I think what DMTX really comes into its own is being able to spend.

Imagine if you'd sent in a mathematician or a linguist. It was familiar with strange symbolisms and languages or whatever. Somebody who could spend an hour within the space interacting with these beings and trying to extract certain types of information from these beings. I think that's how I see the future of a DMTX program as opposed to research programs of the past, which have generally been, have you taken psychedelics before? Yes, good. Do you have any heart conditions? No. Okay, there you go. Go in. Tell us what you see.

But with DMTX, you can bring them out, can't you? Get them to describe what they saw and then put them back. Exactly. So not only can you send in specialists. So if you want to study the topology or the geometry of the space, you send in a mathematician that's familiar with these kind of things. And they can say, oh, this is a seven-dimensional space. Or these are the symmetry groups that are on the walls of this space. They can tell you exactly what's going on mathematically and what's changed compared to the normal waking world. And they can spend, yes, they can spend, you know, it could be deep within the space for an hour or longer. Or you can. adjust in real time so they can have a device where they can adjust the infusion rate so the the amount of DMT being infused into their bloodstream they can manipulate that in real time because DMT is so short acting if you bring down the infusion rate within just a minute or so you start to come out and then you can communicate with the team and say I'm seeing this I'm seeing this and they might say oh can you can you look for this or can you ask them this and okay I'm going back in there you

go back down again you know and so you have this ability to manipulate the depth in real time. It's fascinating. What got you thinking that maybe what people are seeing is connected and that's not a hallucination, that it's your realm or... Yeah, I mean, so what I think's going on with DMT is I don't think you're going anywhere.

That's really important. It's not like another dimension or something like that. Even in the DMT state, the brain is constructing this model, right? So normally what's happening when you're awake and completely sober is your brain is using sensory information, let's say, through your eyes. And it's using it to kind of tune and keep its model kind of tuned to the environment, basically. Now, when you take DMT, the brain starts constructing this alternate world model. And it's as if there's some alternate source of sensory information coming into the brain that's kind of modulating that DMT world. So you're not going anywhere.

You don't have to kind of travel anywhere. It's simply like switching the channel, right? If you have a TV set and you're watching Channel 1, then you switch the TV set to Channel 2, and nothing goes anywhere. It's simply that you've changed the receiving. Well, you said that it's like you're receiving an alternate reality. How do you know that you're receiving it and not creating it?

Well, you are creating it. You're always creating the world model. But again, in the normal waking world, you're receiving sensory information, which is informing that creation. So it's like it's always being created by the brain, but it's mapped to the environment, the normal waking world, right? It's modulated and it's kind of constrained by sensory information coming from the environment, right? Now in the DMT state, what I think is happening is that your brain is constructing this alternate world, but it's being constrained by some other source of sensory input. which I think distinguishes it from a hallucination. The reason I think that, because you could say, you're quite right,

that it's purely constructed, right? There's no other source of information coming in. It's literally like a kind of dream state. But again, you know, the dream state is very different. We can explain the dream state. The DMT state is like this. It's like the brain has started speaking a language. It never learned to speak.

It's constructing these worlds that, have no relationship to the normal waking world, no relationship to the world, the brain evolved and learned to construct. And it's hard to explain that. If a five-year-old British child started speaking some obscure dialect of some South American indigenous rainforest language, right, and doing so fluently,

that would be completely confounding, unless he'd been taught it in the same way, the brain switching to construct in this alien world. so efficiently is very, very, very difficult to explain. And that's kind of the foundation of why I think there's something going on more than just mere hallucination with DMT. But we need to test it. Now, there are a number of ways you might do that, for example.

You might look for, you know, if two people, for example, are going, let's say, interacting with the same entity as some people claim to be able to do, can you kind of, can you kind pass information through that entity. Can someone deposit information into the DMT state? I want to ask you... I want to ask you about the blue-yellow test. Blue-yellow test.

I want to ask you about that. Before we do that, mentioned Robin Card Harris. Let's steal man and straw man, because he disagrees and thinks it's hallucination. He does, yeah. Why does he think that and why is he wrong? I mean, I want you to be right,

but it's, you know, logically parsimoniously it seems like hallucination is what it is but i i prefer your theory because it's just more interesting well i think i'm not going to say that robin is wrong um but i think i think robin and all kind of mainstream button down near a scientist start with that of the assumption that we're dealing with hallucination and i think that that's reasonable actually uh it should always be your default position. In most of my work, I would say 80% of what I've done in the last 20 years, it's not actually trying to convince people what DMT is, but actually trying to convince people what it's not. I actually try to explain to people why I don't think it's hallucination,

rather than telling them that I have the answer, that it's the spirit world or whatever, the astral plane. I really try to focus on why I think it's very difficult to explain DMT, as a as a hallucination and Robin would say well this is just I can't say what Robin would say but it's Robin assumes that we're dealing with some kind of information some kind of some kind of hallucination that your brain when perturbed by DMT is is constructing these worlds perhaps informed by archetypal structures that's a big thing. I know with Robin,

he often takes this very young-ean angle. He thinks that, well, these are archetypal structures. That's where they're coming from. These are inherited patterns. That's why everyone sees certain types of entities. It's because these are embedded archetypal structures. In every culture. In every culture.

Has little people. Right. Exactly. But I think that would work if... The thing is that archetypal... are not images first of all you know an archetype really we know now anyway then an archetype is really just a it's a an inherited mode of social interaction so you're born with certain in animals we just call them

instincts right a baby for example will want to be close to its mother will see its mother as a source of warmth and comfort and safety and will smile when it sees its mother's face whereas when he sees a stranger it will it will be naturally kind of scared and start crying if it separated from his mother it will start crying these are instinctive behaviors that are essential right in in animals we have certain instinctive behaviors that don't need to be learned if you take a pair of young rats in a cage they're entirely raised alone put them together in a cage, they will start playing, they will start scrapping and all this kind of stuff. All instinctive.

They don't need to be taught how to play. It's just instinctive. You put a few cat hairs into that cage. Right. They freeze. They're scared. It doesn't work with dog hairs. It works with cat hairs, right?

So they have this innate program. We might call it a cat archetype. It doesn't mean they can dream of cats or that they can imagine cats. They can't, but they have this innate response to a cat. They know what that smell is. They know that that smell. They don't know what it is, but they know that instinctively that they need to be a little bit careful because there's something unsettling.

There's something dangerous here. And they don't need to be taught that. And that's kind of important. And in the same way, humans have lots of these archetypes. The mother archetype, the father archetype, the stranger, the wise old man. What's the wise old man? Well, it's an elder member of the tribe who has a lot of life experience and wisdom and who you should listen to. That the trickster, this is someone probably from outside the tribe maybe, who you need to be a little bit careful around.

Should you reveal your darkest secrets to them or should you remain tight lips? Should you listen to what they say or should you ignore them? You know, these are all types of social interactions that have been essential as social humans for millennia, tens of millennia. And so these are kind of hardwired. And so these become associated with certain types of people, we call the archetypes. But they're not images. They don't endow you with the ability to construct images. But you learn to construct images associated with them.

As you do, your brain learns to construct them in the normal waking world. They become associated with certain types of, the mother archetype becomes associated with your mother. And that kind of thing. So archetypes are kind of limited. committed in what they give you. They give you these very kind of quick and dirty ways of responding to humans. There are certain types of humans that you're likely to meet in the environment that you should respond to in certain ways. You don't respond to your mother in the same way you respond to a stranger in a dark alley. We have these hardwired archetypes that allow us to differentiate those, respond in an appropriate way.

but they don't give you hyperdimensional worlds filled with non-human, non-animal beings that are far more complex than humans. They don't give you all of that stuff. And so it still doesn't explain, even if you invoke the archetypes, why and how the brain is able to construct these things so reliably. But again, I understand that not everyone is going to be convinced by this. And I don't necessarily expect them to be convinced by it. I'm not trying to convince them that the DMT world, you really are interacting with other intelligences in the DMT state,

but I'm just trying to trigger a little sliver of doubt in your mind that actually there may be something slightly unusual going on that we need to study. We need to really study this space and study these entities with an open mind and not just assume from the get-go that is just a hallucination, and our job is simply to explain how these hallucination works, because there's so much going on in DMT state that I think remains a true mystery.

Do we know if Robin has tried DMT? I don't want to out him. The reason I ask is, if you've tried it, then you inherently feel like you're connected to everything else. Yeah, I do know the answer to that question, but I'm not sure if I can give you it. That's fair enough. Because when I read his quote about hallucinations, I was thinking,

Robin, I don't know if you've taken it because it's pretty mind-opening. But there are some problems with it that I want to talk about as we move along. You mentioned rats brought me to a question I wanted to ask. I think we're finding that under cardiac arrest, brains being flooded with DMT.

Yeah. What do you think is going on there? Ah, okay, there's a bit of a story there. Okay. So again, the reason I mentioned earlier that people have been looking for DMT in humans since the 1950s, and there's a reason for that because there was this idea that something called the transmethylation hypothesis of schizophrenia, which was the idea that, you know, serotonin also comes from tryptophan and tryptamine. But if you kind of divert off the serotonin reduction pathway, you use.

can get very easily to DMT. So when people started, when Zara particularly started and other people started publishing studies showing that DMT was psychedelic and that it could easily be produced from tryptophan, they thought, well, maybe what's causing these abnormal psychologists in schizophrenics is that they have this disorder with their triptamine metabolism, that they're producing too much DMT. So they make sense, right? so easy to test. They started looking for DMT in urine, in blood, in saliva, etc. And they found it. But the problem is that they found it in basically everyone. Right. And there are some studies that, I think there's been over 100 studies now looking at DMT levels in humans since the 1950s.

And there's never been really convincing evidence that some studies say, oh, there's more DMT in schizophrenia. Other studies say, no, there is a. It's certainly not definitive. And does it even make any sense. Schizophrenics don't tend to, you know, really like schizophrenic visual hallucinations when they're there, mainly they're auditory, they're hearing voices. But when they do have visual hallucinations, they tend to be of normal appearing, normal sized humans. And they tend to be in the same space. Right. Where when you're on DMT, you're not here anymore. You, you are gone. Exactly, yeah. So it's like that it's like you're in a waking dream. It's like, you know, your, your brain is inserted human into your world model inappropriately.

They interact with the environment. They sit on chairs. They walk through doors. They don't walk through walls. They seem to obey the laws of physics, right? That's your brain kind of, again, using its stored object models and models of the world, but not doing it quite appropriately. That's relatively easy to explain.

But anyway, going back to the, rats, yeah. So the idea, so the pinnial gland, this is basically taking us to the pinnial gland. So Rick Strassman in the 1990s, he proposed that DMT, we know that the pinnial gland is producing melatonin, this tiny little gland about the size of the end of my pinky, sits right in the center of the brain. It has this exalted position in mystical traditions for many, many years. and Rick Strasman suggested that perhaps pinnial gland was releasing DMT and that this was responsible for certain alter states of consciousness or very specifically the near-death experience.

This actually I should give proper credit to Jace Callaway in the 1980s. He proposed that dreaming was due to DMT that when you dream your brain stops the tryptamine metabolism changes and the brain stops producing serotonin and basically start producing DMT and that causes dreaming that was his hypothesis you have two hypotheses one is the DMT causes dreams which I don't think is true either dreams are nothing like DMT right and then the near-death experience that's more compelling yes it's more compelling there have been some recent studies that showed there are very there is kind of a quite a large overlap between the kinds of experiences people have

during near-death experiences and the DMT phenomenology. They're not exactly the same. And only 10 to 20% of those people have that experience. The rest don't. Exactly, yeah, including Don Hoffman, actually. But that's another story. We were almost up to God. I can't wait.

So what do you think is happening? Yeah. Why did we evolve to have that there? So is that why we're seeing the tunnel when I see the Virgin Mary or I see my grandmother, my mother, am I seeing an entity? So that's the hypothesis, right? So Rick Strasman said that when you die, when you're enduring the dying process,

the brain is flooded with DMT, and this is kind of the conduit by which the soul exits the body. It's a very mystical kind of, it's not purely a scientific. He's definitely strayed into the mystical realms here, kind of exited the scientific arena a little bit. You kind of have to.

You kind of have to, yeah. But it was purely hypothetical. It was just a hypothesis that a number of people caught onto. So the DMT dream, DMT death thing has become kind of embedded in public consciousness, but they're both purely hypotheses. However, more recently, a guy called a biochemist, I think he's a biochemist, Edie Fresca, who's working with Rick Strasman and Dennis McKenna, he found that DMT, when you, if you have some neurons that are deprived of oxygen,

so brain cells, you deprive them, they are very oxygen hungry. If you deprive them from oxygen, they deprive them of oxygen, they die very quickly. This is why strokes are so devastating. In a very short period of time, blood flow to certain parts of the brain. It's compromised. That part of the brain starts to die, which is why strokes need to be treated so, so rapidly. It's an absolute critical, you know, clinical emergency. But what he found is that if you deprive neurons of oxygen and added some DMT to the mix,

the neurons survived much longer. Neuroprotective. It's neuroprotective. And it's actually a particular receptor called the Sigma 1 receptor. It's not the serotonin receptor. The sigma 1 receptor binds to this and it protects the neurons in some way. There's some biochemical cascade that helps the neurons to survive for much longer. So then you think about this. Oh, wait a minute. What happens during the dying process? Well, your cardiovascular and respiratory systems start to collapse. Your brain is starved gradually more and more starved of oxygen. Now, this is precisely the time when, you know, if you do come back, right, if you don't die, this is precisely the time when you need as much DMT in your brain as possible to help protect your brain. So if you do come back, the brain is protected because this is the most oxygen, you know, hypoxia sensitive organ in the body.

body. And so it would make sense that if you're dying, that somehow DMT endogenous DMT production is ramped up very, very rapidly, you get this flood of DMT in the brain, which protects the brain. It doesn't explain the experience, however, because you can do this with any molecule that binds to the Sigma 1 receptor. So it suggests there's some connection there with the dying process. And so they recently, they tested this in rats. They would stop the rat's heart induce basically cardiac arrest in a rat

and they have these things called these micro what are they called I forget but anyway they have these system where they can actually measure they can put this device this probe directly

into a rat's living rat's brain and actually measure in real time the levels of various molecules kind of a credible thing and they found indeed that when the rat heart stopped levels of DMT grows very, very, very, very spike in DMT.

There was also other neurotransmitters that were spiking as well. So whether it's specific for DMT is not, it doesn't seem to be. But it kind of fits together, right? That when you're dying, the brain or the brain or could be the lungs, we don't know, but levels of DMT in the brain at least rise. This protects the brain. Have they been able to test on the rats different brain activity? No, so you're suggesting like they can measure the NDE of them?

Right, I'm wondering. It sounds like all mammals would do this. It's what it sounds like. I'm just wondering, does every animal, when it goes through this process, does their reality change? Do they move to this new dimension? This is, yeah. Unless you kind of undergo a rebirth as a rat, we're not likely to find that out. I mean, you certainly can measure.

Couldn't you test their brainwaves to see? Yes, you can. You can. You can. But whether you can do that at the same time as this micro, it's called microdialysis, you can do that at the same time as this measuring the levels. I think you probably have to do it separately. You have these like tiny little MRI machine, very cute little MRI machine. You can probably do that.

It looks like a Barbie MRI. Yeah, I don't think it's been done there. Yeah. A quick sidetrack, and then I want to get to blue yellow. 5MEO DMT is something that I'm not interested in doing. But that seems to be real dark ego death very quickly, where with DMT, there's some ego dissolving, but you're still narrating and you're still remembering.

So there is, you're still kind of driving for 5MEO is a little bit, you're more observing and you kind of go into the void. Yeah, they used to call 5MEO and DMT the power and the glory. Oh, right? So DMT is the glory. It's very, obviously it's characterized by extremely content rich. It's extremely visual. It's a full of stuff, more full of stuff than the nor waking world.

So it's a beautiful experience. It can be horrifying as well, but it is a beautiful, rich, incredibly, exquisitely rich and complex kind of experience. Yeah, not everybody from DMTX had a glorious experience. I read a couple that were like those evil motherfuckers. I read a couple of those dark ones. There are some dark ones, yeah, for sure. But generally, it's less than 10%. Yeah, it's a bad trip.

It's a bad trip. But yeah, Carl Smith, going back to him, he was subject zero imperial college. He said to me many years ago, he says, if DMT is like the fourth dimension, five MEO is like the 12th dimension. Yeah. It's like you go past all the, the form, you transcend form. If you go far enough, beyond you can actually go beyond DMT, this highly structured form and content rich state into the void, into pure white light of consciousness

itself. That's the five MEO. And he actually said during his DMTX experience that he was able to sometimes see the five MEO space kind of there some way away, whilst he was in the DMT space, as if he could almost reach it, as if they were connected in some way. That's very interesting. Yeah. That's very interesting.

I don't know if you want to say it, but have you experienced five of them, yeah? And I like you, I'm in no hurry. I've got my hands full with DMT. Yeah, I'm in no hurry either because, yeah. And you can buy that online from these churches. Don't do that. I don't buy anything from the churches.

Don't go chasing to do. down in um what was what was that church that you that you criticized they're still in business by the way are they really oh yes yes yes yeah it was the church of used to be called the church of salemothoxone then it became the church of the sacred synthesis i think yeah they're yeah they're still they're still operating and um it's a couple of lawyers that are running basically a church farm i think they've claimed that they've helped create something like 80 to 100 of these sacrament churches. I mean, they wrote a couple of books on how to do it to get around being able to buy drugs in the mail.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just want people to know that that's, it's not legal what they're doing. No. So don't send them money. No, no. I mean, they say that their sacrament doesn't contain. They said it doesn't contain any. The illegal parts of the mushroom is that the psilocybin, the psilocybin, the silicin, they said it doesn't contain any of that, and it's just silo-mothoxin, this molecule, the sacred molecule that they produce.

But actually, when people analyzed samples of this sacrament, it actually contained no silo-mothoxin whatsoever, and it was purely just, it was just magic mushrooms. So they've been shipping that to people, including internationally as well. Oh, boy. So you pay a subscription fee, and you get shipped these allegedly, perfectly leased. because thylmothoxin itself molecule isn't illegal that should be completely legal but actually if someone was to one of these samples was was intercepted it's like you can get in really serious trouble depending on way he lived it's and and it's such as what really annoys me about them is that it's such a simple thing to do

you know he had this vision that if you feed fibithoxy DMT to magic mushrooms they start converting Lhymethoxy DMT to silomethoxin, simple chemical step. Wasn't that based on debunked research, though? It was. Hamlet Morris recently devouted it, yeah, by a guy called Garts. But anyway, you know, once they'd done that experiment, nothing wrong with doing the experiment,

they should have done the obvious thing, which is to analyze, chemically analyzed. It shouldn't have been left to some outside person, some independent group to actually analyze their mushrooms and check that it doesn't contain, psilocybin and silicin naturally contains what they say it contains they just said oh it feels completely different to mushrooms completely biased subjective way of kind of appraising this this mushroom and then when a group did actually analyze it as I said there was no psilomythoxin in there whatsoever and of course

they threatened to they tried to sue them for one million one million dollars Literally it was, you know, several people, lots of people they tried to sue. Well, they're lawyers. They're not chemists. They're not scientists. They're lawyers. They're going to sue. They lost every case they've sued.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah, so guys, don't, that's, um, Andrew, I don't say it, but I will. Greg Lake and Ben Wee. Stay away from those churches. That's the, uh, I feel like those churches kind of cloud the legitimate research. don't you? Well, it depends on the church, I guess.

I mean, I think humans really do have a, there I say, a God-given right to alter their consciousness, however they feel fit. And if that includes using solosophye mushrooms or ayahuasca or DMT or whatever, I don't think that should be a crime. And I think there's something extremely wrong with the idea that certain states of consciousness are basically illegal. I mean, yes, it's the molecule, but really not the molecule. What's important is what it does to you, what it does to your consciousness. And so it basically means that the LSD-induced state of consciousness is illegal.

The DMT-induced state of consciousness is an illegal state of consciousness. So I think I can fully understand people who would try to find loopholes in the law and more power to them to do that. but when you start creating churches, I think there's a danger of you getting into kind of cultish territory, starting your own religion. For some people, it's clearly just a way of getting around the law. But for other people,

like the Church of Asylumathoxin, for example, it becomes much more than that. And they start making big money from this. I mean, the $50,000 a month, I think, was a number. Don't quote me on that. But it was a big number. I think of the lawsuit is $100,000 a month. Yeah.

Okay, there you go. So $100,000 a month. And then some guys publish a paper basically saying that the entire foundation of your sacrament, you know, people are paying $100 a month, what it is for 30 grams of dried mushrooms, something that could be obtained for pennies, really, if you grow your own. Someone shows that that's nonsense, that it's not scientifically valid. Go from $100,000 a month to a very small number. You can imagine them being pissed off by that.

But it's their own fault. Yeah. Yeah. We'll leave on that up note about the churches. All right. We'll be right back, guys. It's going to get wild. I wanted to ask you about this.

Back in 2021, something you posted. Going back. Retrieved and carefully restored from the archives of the highly secret of now allegedly defunct laboratory for reality engineering Tokyo. With its own psychedelic molecular molecules. or technological manual. That is not a paper. That is not a scientific paper.

What is that? World Building, an ARG? What were you doing? So that's from my second book, Reality Switch Technologies, Psychedelics as Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds. That was kind of a concept book. I mean, fundamentally, it's a book about how do psychedelic molecules

alter the structure and dynamics of your world? How do they allow you to explore other worlds, basically? It takes you through all the way from the chemistry through to the biochemistry and the pharmacology and the neuroscience and looks at DMT, it looks at the classic psychedelics generally, it looks at salvin-orin, it looks at even ketamine, things like that.

It's like a manual for understanding psychedelics, basically. but it was kind of like a concept book in that I wanted I wanted to give it this kind of this kind of feeling as I guess like this kind of cyberpunk vibe as being this kind of old document from this defunct reality engineering institute in Tokyo that was the vibe you know kind of Akira kind of thing that's what I wanted so if you if you actually buy that book the whole book looks like it's been kind of photocopied. It's like one of these declassified CIA documents with all the stamps on and the retracted bits. You know that you could still get that I'm going to do that. Yeah. It's, it was a very, I love that book. And that whole reality, there's some photos in the center of the book that purported to be from this now different secretive reality engineering institute in Tokyo, which of course is just my imagination. I bet a lot of people hopped on board though with that. A lot of people did. And they would write.

I'd like to me as well and say, hey, I think there's a problem with the printing on this board. It looks like it's been photocopied. So, yeah, that's part of the design. I thought it was great. So let's talk about the blue-yellow screen test. Right. How does that work and what are you trying to prove? And is that connected to traces of other with Don and Nipa?

Yeah. So obviously, I can talk until the cows come home, explaining why I think DMT is more than hallucination, but we really need real tests. What are the kind of experimental tests that we can do that can distinguish between actual interfacing with some kind of intelligence versus pure hallucination? And so in 2015, I started working with a non-profit in Florida called New Nautics and now one of the directors.

We're interested in kind of like we describe it as like a seti of the mind kind of program rather than looking for intelligence out there in the cosmos. We're looking for intelligence, the inner paths to outer space, as Rick Strassman called it. And so we're interested in kind of spearheading and developing research, various research projects within this kind of psychedelic arena to actually study things that other people don't study, right? Actually, most people assume it's hallucination and so they wouldn't dream of doing these kind of experiments trying to actually test that. And so New Nordic, people can go to the New Nordic's website, nondonautics.org, n-O-N-A-U-T-I-C-S dot org and find out all about the work we do. People can even donate if they want to to help fund that kind of research. And now with the DMTX technology, now that we have this ability to extend the DMT state, we can actually do experiments now. And now we even have the venue, I mentioned Illusis earlier, ELEUSIS, based on the Elycinean mysteries.

So we have this legal setting where people can go and we can actually bring in cohorts. We like the research arm of Illusis at New Nordics. We can design these experiments, and we can actually bring people onto the island in the Caribbean, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, and perform experiments aimed at studying the DMT space and testing the DMT space, doing experiments within the DMT space. And so this blue, yellow.

So basically, what we want to know is when someone goes into the DMT space and they're interacting with some kind of entity, let's say. Are they really interacting with some kind of independent agency? And how do we test that? And it's, one can imagine a whole suite of different experiments that one could do. I don't think there's kind of one mic drop experiment that's going to settle the question once and for all. You can imagine various research programs aimed at testing that.

And one broad type of experiment is looking for, some kind of correlation within the DMT experience that can't be explained in terms of the subject couldn't know, right? So I mentioned earlier this idea of someone depositing information into the DMT space and someone else retrieving it later on, and that would show there's some sort of communication channel. Another type of experiment, which is this blue, yellow one you mentioned, is can. a DMT entity can they track some kind of external variable that the subject doesn't know right so it could be the simplest case is some kind of binary variable right it could be switching between two colors right so in another room completely isolated from the subject you have a computer screen that's set to randomly switch at random intervals between two different variables most simplest idea would be two colors right a blue screen and a

the yellow screen, simple as that. What we want to know is can some entity, can their behavior in some way be tracked to that variable? Right. So, for example, the subject goes into the DMT space, starts interacting with an entity. Here we've got trained people who can reliably interact with certain entities. And then, basically, we can ask the subject to basically, at intervals, at set intervals, they need to say, okay, is the screen blue or yellow, right? Based upon your experience, right? They could be asking the entity directly. Is it blue or yellow?

Now, or it could be just like what are the dominant colors within the space? Maybe they're not even interacting with an entity. Just what vibe do you get based upon your experience? Are you leaning more towards blue now or leaning more towards yellow? And sometimes that might be obvious, you know, if the experience becomes brightly colored yellow then they would say yellow but it might be much more subtle than that they might have to kind of guess a little bit but the idea basically is simply that when you when you perform that experiment with the

subject you compare the actual random flipping between blue and yellow or whatever other binary variable you choose is there a correlation statistical correlation that is beyond what would be expected by chance and if if so if you achieve that then that suggests that Yes, the DMT state, the entities within the DMT state, can somehow track. So it's not like many people have proposed experiments where you go into the DMT space and you say to an entity, if you're so smart, you know, break down this complex number, this large number into its unique prime factors, basically asking them to perform things,

perform mathematical operations. I think that's quite an ask. that. I probably don't want to do that. Didn't you have one entity who just said, we're done for today? Oh, yeah, we'll get to that. Okay. That's the, to do with the lockout effect. Okay. Very interesting. I didn't mention that, actually. That's another reason why I don't think, but we'll get to that. Okay. But yeah, so, so I think this is a much simpler experiment in that you're simply asking someone to basically say blue or yellow. What makes you think that the entities can see into our world so easily? We don't. We don't know that. We don't know that, which is why you have

a number of experiments. So you might be asking, again, deposit and retrieval, that's slightly different. Here you're looking at an information channel into and out of the DMT state. This is more tracking an external variable. You might ask the entities to, or sometimes rather than giving the entity's tasks, this is something I really struggle with, is that requiring the cooperation of an entity, for them even to know what you mean. There's nothing guaranteed. We'll get to this when we talk about Don Hoffman. There's nothing guaranteed in my current model of DMT

that requires or even implies that these entities are highly intelligent in the human sense. But they seem to occupy a space that is geometrically, dimensionally, and topologically, very, very different. And so they're doing things within that space that cannot be done within the normal waking world. And they kind of betray their intelligence in a way. You don't need to ask them to do things. They just do things that the human brain can't.

Right. So if it's a hallucination, then obviously what that entity can do is limited by what your brain can do. Right. The entity starts speaking ancient Greek and you don't know. ancient Greek, we've got a problem here. Yes. Right. Now, if an entity starts performing mathematical operations, starts doing things, right, that

your human brain cannot do, then we've got a problem here to explain. Andres Gomez Emielsen, who works, who's part of or founded the Qualia Research Institute, probably the most important group on the planet now who's really studying the mathematics

of the DMT state and the topology and the dimension structure and all of that stuff, he describes entities doing things that a human can't do mathematically, like painting surfaces with certain colors. So there's something called the four-color theorem, which states that whenever you have a surface that's got different shapes, all perfectly tessellated, like a map, you can color every shape with four colors so that no two shapes abut with the same color. So it comes to a different shapes. back to the idea of coloring a map of all the countries. You only need four colors to paint

every country with a different color, so no two countries have the same color kind of butting up against each other. It's called the four-color theorem. You can do it with any kind of map, but the more complex the map becomes, the more cognitively demanding it becomes. Eventually, it becomes impossible for a human to actually color these surfaces. But what he noticed these entities doing was having these exquisitely complex, often higher dimensional or surfaces with strange topological structures and these entities painting these surfaces with four colors just perfectly as if demonstrating their abilities. And he said, I couldn't do this. It would take me hours or longer to do what they were doing in a fraction of a second.

And repeatedly, they paint the surface and then they would reset it and then paint it again and then do it again repeatedly. And most people, if they saw that, they would go, that was crazy or that was weird or that was beautiful, but they wouldn't understand what they were actually looking at. I wouldn't. No. Nor would I. Nor would I.

Nor would I. I was surprised by all the math in traces of other and in Hoffman's theories. There's a lot of math in it. There's a lot of math. And I think you need the maths. to, so we say maths in the UK, I can't bring myself to say math. You need the mathematics to really kind of, to understand the DMT state because it is entirely different.

It's not the simple three plus one dimensional world that we live in. It's very, very different. And being able to go in there and say how it's different, why it's different, what's going on? And this is why I said earlier, you send in specialists into the DMT state. You send in people like Andres who can say, look, what these entities are doing is not just beautiful or strange, it's impossible for a human brain to do, or far beyond normal human cognitive capacities, even in the most intelligent

of people like Andres. And so those are the kind of things you see, where the entities are actually betray their intelligence, displaying it. They're not giving you numbers or giving you blueprints for the time machine. I don't think it works like that, but they're doing things that you just have to recognize are beyond human capabilities. And in that way, that adds another piece of evidence that we're dealing with something that is beyond the human ship. That's very interesting. Can you give us just a simple example of how the maths apply to this work?

Yeah, well, so... I'm just trying to get a foundation before we get into Don Hoffman. Okay. Yeah, well, we can get into Dovon Hoffman because the mathematics definitely applies there. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19-speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility, and Optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary.

Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility, Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for Calendar Year 2025 for the Cadillac definition of luxury. So I've been kind of following Don Hoffman, Donald Hoffman, Professor, Cognitive Scientist, the University of California at Irvine for decades. And he has this mathematical model that he calls Conscious Agent Theory. It's what he calls conscious realism, which posits that consciousness is fundamental,

and that reality consists of and only of conscious agents interacting. So everything we see and perceive is the result of the interaction of these conscious agents. And he has this precise mathematical model from which he can kind of boot up physical reality. So rather than this failed program of assuming that, Matter is fundamental and trying to boot up consciousness from dead, inert physical matter. He's going in the opposite direction, which I think is the correct one. Assume that consciousness is fundamental, try to get the appearance of the physical world from consciousness and from the interaction of conscious agent.

He starts with a conscious agent, which is very... I think he got his math to work through game theory. Like the math is legitimately works. The mathematics legitimately works, and it's a, it's a... incredible really that he starts with a very simple kind of minimal assumption model of a conscious agent. A conscious agent is an agent that can do basically three things. It can perceive other conscious agents. It can make decisions based upon what it perceives and it can perform actions which affect other conscious agents. So this kind of network emerges of conscious agents are all interacting via

perception. What we see and what we observe is this interface. We never perceive the conscious agent network directly because it's far too complex, effectively this infinite network of conscious agents. What we see is this interface that allows us to interact in adaptive ways with the environment. Everything's an icon. Everything's an icon, right? So this is the fitness before truth method. This is fitness before truth. And so that was his original idea of, He's been developing and testing various ways over the last few decades. And most recently, he came up with this, what's called the trace logic.

The mathematics are a little bit sophisticated. I don't want to get too much into that. I'll get out of my depth pretty quickly as well. But what he found is that using this new model, he could actually kind of boot up, not just the world as it appears to us, but he could also boot up relativity. So he could explain within this conscious agent theory, trace logic model,

why time dilation and contraction at high speeds and all this kind of stuff that comes from relativity, which we thought was kind of fundamental to the way space time works. Actually, he can get it from just the interactions of conscious agents. He can get, he derived the shrewding, equation. I mean, it's incredible stuff, yeah, just from basic conscious agents. And so just a few months ago, actually, I got an email from a guy called Gaspar, who's working with Don.

He's kind of built this thing called the Trace Institute based upon Don Hoffman's work to kind of start to build Don's legacy because Don Hoffman's kind of disorganized in some ways and there's all this stuff that floating around in papers and interviews and other stuff. There's no kind of properly organized archive and an institute to actually follow on to his work and kind of pick up the mantle, so to speak. So Gaspard, who's also been following my work, said to Don, you should read this guy, Andrew Gallimor, you know, read his book, Death by Astonishment, because a lot of the ideas in here.

I talk about intelligent agents in a very neutral way. I don't talk so much about aliens or spirits or that kind of thing. I'd say we're dealing with some kind of intelligent agent in the DMT state. Don Hoffman talks about conscious agents. So Gaspard quite rightly noted that there seemed to be some overlap here. There is perhaps some cross-fertilization between our different ways of looking at reality. There is, but there's some conflict as well. There might be some conflict.

we can get into. But Gaspar had, you know, would you like to meet Don Hoffman? Don would like to meet you. We can have a discussion and see where there is that overlap. And so we met online and straightaway I said, should we write a paper on this? See if we can see where the connection is. And it was honestly, and I don't say this lightly, It was one of the most profound few months of my life.

And this was a preprint just last month, I think, right? Preprint, we published just last month. And it was, it was, I kind of had this working model of what DMT was doing, that it was kind of gating access to some other source of sensory information. But I never, within the physicalist framework, there was no way for me to explain, how does information come from somewhere else? It's not coming through the normal sensory. organs. Where's that information coming from? I didn't have an answer to it until I started working

with Don's model. So in my second book, we just spoke about reality switch technologies, I developed this concept called the world space. So remember that your brain is always constructing the world. And so there's kind of a vast state space of all possible worlds that your brain can construct, right? Normally we sit within this very small region of what I call the world space. I call this the consensus reality space. But there are all these other worlds, world moments. A world is just everything you're experiencing at a particular moment. Your brain is constantly moving between these states.

If you take this vast landscape of all possible world moments, I call that the world space. And normally we sit within this very narrow region. It's like a well and attract a basin. in this world space, the consensus reality space, and that's the normal waking world. Those are the states that represent the structure, the content, and dynamics of the normal waking world. What DMT does, as I postulate in reality switch technologies, is it perturbs the brain, and it pushes it into a different region of this world space landscape. This is where the DMT worlds are represented.

But what I didn't have in that model was how information comes in to actually kind of modulate that, you know, modulate that experience. It was just how does the brain go from building the normal waking world to the DMT world. So then I started working with Don's model and a mathematician called Nipha Hermanson who was absolutely pivotal in making this all the mathematics work.

And we basically, we probed the model. We said, okay, if normally we only sit within a narrow, very small region of what Don Hoffman calls the experience base. It's the same idea. A conscious agent has this vast set of states, vast numbers of different experiences, and we sit within this very narrow region of this experience space.

It's the same idea as the world space. But what Don Hoffman's work has is kind of the experience base is simply a set of states, all possible states that a conscious agent could have, all possible experiences. But what sits on top is this mathematical structure called a Markov kernel, which is called the qualia kernel. What that does is it gives dynamical structure to the experience base. So what that means is you're in this state now, what are the probability that you'll move to this state or this state or this state?

So it gives that dynamics. It determines the dynamics of how you move through around the experience base. And as I said, normally we will sit within this very small region of the total experience base, which is the adaptive region where we experience the normal waking world. It's very, very small location within the experience base. And that's determined by the qualia kernel, which is evolved within that region of the experience base to create the world that we experience. However, if you can perturb the brain, perturb the conscious agent,

you can knock it out of this region of the experience base into an entirely different region, where the normal rules that are basically applied by this qualia kernel, they no longer apply. So you enter a type of experience, a type of being within the world that is completely different, right? This is purely abstract at the moment. We're not thinking about DMT. You enter a region of the experience base where the dynamics are completely different, the Markovian rules, the Markovian dynamics that determine how you experience the world within this region of the experience base are completely different. Now, the qualia kernel that sits, as I say, that's determining these dynamics is actually composed of three different kernels, the perception, the decision, and the action kernels.

So there's three parts. So together, they determine not just what is your experience like within this region of the experience. space, but how are you interacting with the larger, the broader conscious agent network? What kinds of other conscious agents can you interact with? Can you perceive? Because in this region, the consensus reality space, you can only interact with a very, very limited number of conscious agents. But in this region of the experience space, we proposed, you might be able to interact

with agents that are normally completely imperceptible. Let me ask a question then. Go on. The information theory would say that that other region is just a lossy projection, and you can never fully know what's there, because it may even be Don's work, and N can't be greater than M. So brain is finite. We can't perceive other dimensions because our brain just can't do it.

So if we're going into these other worlds, it has to just be a shadow of the world, because we really can't know. Well, okay, yes, so the world your experience is always, it's always the interface. So you can never get out of the interface, but the interface would change as you move the different regions of the experience base. So what you see in the interface is determined by the dynamics that are imposed by this qualia kernel, right? So in this region, we experience this low dimensional world. We're interacting with this very limited number of conscious agents that are, that through our perception, channel, our perception kernel, we're able to kind of render that information in a way that

makes sense to us. But once you move into this other region of the experience space, so we propose, the dynamical constraints are completely different. So the world wouldn't necessarily be three plus one dimensional. It could be completely different. It could be completely alien. The geometry, the topology, could be completely alien. And the conscious agents that you can interact with in that region of the experience base could also be completely different. So your brain has to also be a projection to make that work. Yes. Yes.

Yes. You always work in conscious agent theory. The brain itself is part of the interface. You're a conscious agent or a set of conscious agents. And we're talking purely about at the level of the ground of reality, if you like. But what's beautiful is you can actually, this was purely initially a kind of a mathematical abstraction that we were doing, talking about how the qualia kernel and the Markovian dynamics, all of this stuff. But then we said, okay, let's imagine what that would actually be like if you were knocked out of this region of the experience base

and you found yourself in a different region of the experience base where the Markovian dynamics are completely different and the interactions between the broader conscious agent network is completely different. Well, it would be extremely strange. Nothing would seem to make sense. It would look impossible. It would look perhaps high dimensional. The topology, the geometry would be completely different. The beings that you interacted with would seem completely alien.

In other words, the entirety of the DMT phenomenology basically fell out of the mathematics. It's elegant. And when that happened, that was like it was a profound moment in my life. Probably one of the most profound moments in my working life studying DMT, that DMT went from something which didn't quite. quite make sense. You know, there's still missing pieces in the way I thought about it. And then suddenly, with Don's model, everything falls into place. It does. But even then, that world, those entities are still just icons and projections. Yes. Yeah. So what you have to think is that

when you perceive another conscious agent, what's happening is that conscious, the way that that conscious agent interacts with the conscious agent network changes the states of the conscious agent network that has an influence on your experience states. It doesn't mean that you can map the actual conscious agent dynamics directly into your experience space. You can't. But there is some influence, statistical influence on how your world states, how your experience states kind of update.

That's what perception is. And we form these icons. You know, I never have access to your internal dynamics. I have this highly simplified icon. And when you're, I'm perceiving you basically what you are doing as a conscious agent is, is affecting my experience. And that's basically what perception is in the conscious realism model. And that completely changes when you go out of the, the consensus reality space, this very limited region of the experience space. I can no longer see you. I can no longer represent you or anything.

But I start to be able to read the experience space. to be able to represent highly unusual exotic Markovian dynamics that I simply couldn't do in this state and that's why we think you're able to interact with other conscious agents that aren't simply are beyond the agents our representational reach if you like we simply have no way to represent what they are doing in any way once you move into this other region of the experience base because the qualia kernel in that region is completely different. This is a bit complicated. But you can start to interact with the conscious agent network in completely different ways.

And that's what DMT is. You're interacting with, it feels like you're in another world because in a sense you are. It's like the headset has been changed. You're in a completely different region of the experience base. And you're interacting with other conscious agents that you weren't, you were unable to interact with or perceive in the whilst you are stuck in this region of the of the experience space so it all falls into place it does quite beautifully and that's what shocked me and was you know a profound almost religious experience what do you think our icon is in that other world how are we perceived

normally i never looked in a mirror that's the thing is that for most people they would close their eyes and the normal waking world is irrelevant. And it's clear that the brain is kind of losing its ability very, very rapidly. If you take a low dose, you will see dramatic changes in the way that other people in the world appears to you. But normally, once you get, once you deliver that robust perturbation of the brain, of the conscious agent with DMT, that this world is gone. no representation of it whatsoever.

Even if you have your eyes open, it's like you're interacting with the conscious agent network in conscious realism theory in a completely different way. And so it makes us what DMT is doing is allowing us. We have this vast, beautiful landscape of possible experiences, and DMT is one way, not necessarily the only way, certainly not the only way, of changing, not just the experience, not just the structure and dynamics of your subjective experience, of your interface,

but allowing you to interact with reality itself, the conscious agent network, in completely different ways. And so it's not just a model of DMT, or DMT is the most efficient delivering that kick to the conscious agent, but people describe very profound encounters with entities and strange alien beings, high-dose psilocybin. or even ketamine. John Lilly used to inject high doses of ketamine in the flotation tank and he would describe interacting with strange digital alien consciousnesses. So maybe it's all about finding molecules that will deliver that robust kick to the conscious agent that pushes it out of this very narrow region and allows your world not just a change but also allows you to enter into

two-way interactions with other parts and other beings, other conscious agents within the conscious agent network. Do you think that that world is lateral to ours or is that deeper to the source? Well, we're always at the source. And this is what's kind of beautiful about conscious agent theory, is that there is no level deeper than a conscious agent. A conscious agent is the ground of reality itself. Right. But normally we only interact, we only see a, of a, were only influenced by a very thin slice of that conscious agent network. We're kind of held, constrained by this qualia kernel that's been sculpted by evolutionary pressures. And what psychedelics do, DMT particularly is, pushes us out of that.

So we're simply within, we're still a conscious agent, but it's just where our way of being in the world and our way of interacting with the broader conscious agent network has changed. but we're still at the level, we're still a conscious agent. That makes sense. So we're living, our world is a Mac, and you go into a different realm, and you're just booting up Windows or Linux. It's just a different interface.

It's a different interface. Right. It's like changing the headset, basically. Yes. Yeah. When was the moment where you abandoned materialism and decided that your brain is an icon? Well, I abandoned materialism many years ago.

I mean, people think that I'm a, materialist. I thought, I did. Yeah, because I write at the level of the brain, I can get my teeth into the brain. I'm not metaphorically, of course. But, you know, the mechanics of it and all that stuff I can understand and get my teeth into.

If someone, but really, I've always been an idealist or for a very long time. I mean, I felt that consciousness was absolutely fundamental. This is the oldest message, you know, from all of the mystical traditions going back to, you know, ancient Hinduism and stuff, saying that consciousness itself is fundamental. I've always felt that.

But there was nothing really to get my teeth into until Don's work came along. Because Don said, hey, if consciousness is fundamental, that doesn't mean it's just this kind of diaphanous mist or fog or whatever. You can actually do mathematics with it. Just like you can with material physics, you can think about, okay, how do these conscious agents interact? What are the mathematics of that? you can actually look at the mechanics and the dynamics of conscious agents and do stuff with it.

Actual science. And so that's why before I started working with Don, I kind of avoided the question of consciousness simply because I had nothing to get my teeth into. And there's always a danger that you'll end up going off into the more spiritual and mystical stuff, which I've generally avoided for the same reasons. Yeah, I don't hear you talk about consciousness itself. and you're familiar with Doug Hammerov's work. It seems like it would marry...

Stuart Hammondhammaroff. Stuart. It seems like it would marry nicely with DMTX. Yeah, Hammerov is a physicalist as well. I mean, Giulio Ternone, I was quite interested in integrated information theory for a while. I even wrote a paper on it, connecting it to the psychedelic state.

But again, these are all really physicalist theories. They're trying to, they assume that the physical is fundamental and that somehow consciousness is generated, whether it's when integrated information is non-zero, whether it's these quantum effects in microtubules or whatever, but it's still a physicalist theory. The microtubules is still just another icon. You know, exactly.

And so what I love about Don is you said, forget about all of that. Let's start with the one thing that we can't deny, which is our consciousness. Let's start with that. Let's assume that's fundamental and then try to boot up the appearance. of physical reality. And he's, yeah, what he's achieved, I think, in the last year or so is remarkable in being able to explain so much about what's going on.

And it all makes perfect sense to me. And when you connect it to DMT, it just all falls into place. As I said, the DMT phenomenology kind of falls out of the mathematics, which is so beautiful, too beautiful, for it to be completely wrong. It could be completely wrong, of course. I'm not saying this is, I've got the answer. But it's certainly something that I think needs to be pursued.

So you and Don just gave a talk together a day or two ago? Yeah. So we wrote the paper. We worked on it for several months, me, Don and Niffer. And then I said, hey, I've been invited onto, have you heard of the Wi-Files? I've been invited on this podcast. And I'm going to be there in June, the middle of June. And so Gaspar's said, oh, we need to do an event.

So that's why I did the event with Don, because thanks to you, AJ. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Yeah. And so we arranged it on Saturday, so it's just a couple of days before today. And it's basically the launch of the Trace Institute, together with the collaboration between the Trace Institute and New Nautics that I work for, that I'm a director of. and we sat on stage for an hour and a half and just having a moderated conversation in LA in Venice Beach

and just talking about kind of telling the world that DMT and conscious realism and that kind of fit together in this beautiful way and it was recorded so it's not been released yet but people will hopefully soon be able to actually watch this conversation

and in the paper as well we did that blue-yellow experiment, we proposed that as well. So it wasn't just a theoretical. There's a lot of mathematics within the paper is a theoretical model, but also at the end we say, okay, how can we test these things? Now that we've got, as I said, the Elusis retreat research center in the Caribbean, we can actually pretty quickly start raising money to actually fund some projects on the island in a legal setting without having to do the whole universe.

university route, which we're trying to avoid connecting ourselves with universities because they obviously, they might not take kindly to the idea of testing the intelligence of DMT. It looks like a luxury vacation is really what it looks like. Oh, it's a beautiful resort, no doubt about it. But it's also a research center as well. Something I couldn't get my mind around was DMT tolerance in DMTX, where at some point when plasma level increases, the experience does not get deeper. In fact, it fades somewhat.

Okay, yeah. So this is very interesting. So as I said before, Rick Strassman showed that DMT doesn't have subjective tolerance, unlike other psychedelics. If you take psilocybin mushrooms and trip, then if you try to take them the following day, you'll have a very, very weak experience, right? And we know, we've known this for a long time. Can control?

Yes. But with DMT, you don't get that tolerance effect, which is why DMTX works. But on the online forums, quite a few years ago, it's been going on for a while, but a lot of people are starting to talk about it now, is people would have this experience where they take DMT often quite regularly, you know, maybe every day or every few days, right? They have a vape pen, so they're delivering the same DMT every time. one day they'll get like a big, like a big X in a field of vision that says no entry. Or there'll be an entity that will wag its finger and say no, no, no.

Or they get some kind of message like, you know, you're not welcome here. We're not letting you in. And this is called a lockout. You've been locked out of the DMT space. Wow. And so they say, okay, that's pretty startling. and a guy wrote to me actually because I kind of probed this a little bit on the online forums and asked people to give me their experiences.

And one guy said that he was using DMT, his same batch as he always does, vaporized in the same manner, and then one day some, I forget it was like a mantis being or some kind of being just as he entered the space punched him in the face and he felt the punch. and he snapped back and he was back baseline consciousness the effect was just gone like that and you get many many those kinds of experiences

and it's not pharmacologically this is not easy to explain no like tolerance is something that builds gradually and fades whereas this is like an off switch they have you know a string of perfectly visual psychedelic DMT states

and then one day they're told you're not coming in And sometimes that can last for months or years. A friend of mine, David Luke, a professor at Greenwich University of Psychologist, one of the world leading experts on DMT and very experienced with DMT. He was locked out for, someone told me it was like 20 years. Are you serotonin receptors still absorbing the molecule? Well, serotonian receptors, the thing about serotonin receptors, all receptors really is that there's a turnover. So the receptor itself will sometimes just for a few days will be in the membrane, then it will be removed from the membrane and broken down and recycled.

So there's always this replenishment of serotonin receptors. Now we know with LSD, as it sits on the receptor, the receptor becomes what's called desensitized. It stops working. That's why you have to wait a few days or a week or so until the receptors have been recycled. You've got new receptors. Sure. Right. Serotonin syndrome is a real thing.

Right, it is a real thing. But what blows my mind is it turning off? Turning off. Because his receptors should still be active with the molecule. You just have it turned off. It turns off, yeah. And it doesn't come back a few days later either. Sometimes it turns off, and then the next day, you're back.

It's like you caught an entity on a bad day, that kind of thing. Sometimes you're locked out for months or even years. That's insane. Yeah. And I can get an even more incredible account that I got from a woman during DMTX. She was doing DMTX in Colorado, kind of a private group. And she was undergoing DMTX. She was having this interaction with this entity for 20 minutes or so,

DMT flowing into her bloodstream and into her brain, stable DMT state. And then the entity said, okay, I think we're done for today. the visions just, you stopped. DMT was still flowing, the infusion machine was still on, DMT levels in a brain still there, and it was just like, we're done. Can't explain that? Can't explain that, right? So we want to study that.

Yes. Adelucis, what we plan to do, we're actually beginning to actually try and get funding for this, is to actually bring people on the island who are either locked out, who have been for a long time, who have repeatedly been unable, who could have visionary experiences in the past, but were locked out and are still locked out, and then bring them to the island and infuse DMT,

bring them through Elusis, infuse them with DMT, you know, DMTX, and then actually confirm or deny that, basically. If they're still locked out, then yeah, you're really on to something. Yeah, then you can actually use, you know, EEG, you can, in theory, you can use FMRRR, you can actually look what is different for a control group you also have a control group who are normal DMT users who can experience DMT and then you look what are the differences between their

neural activity how is that changing is there what's going on here and then you might look for changes in their that differences in their genetics there's also this thing called the five five percent club which are people who not who are locked out from birth shall we say they can never experience effects of DMT. 5% of people. That's very interesting. Is that a serotonin issue? We don't know.

Mood disorder? My guess would be is that it's a, what's called a receptor polymorphism. So every receptor is a protein and it's encoded by a gene. We all have different variants of all the different genes encoding our receptors in our body. These are called polymorphisms. And my suggestion, prediction, perhaps hypothesis, is that certain people have a slightly different variant of the 5HT2A receptor that means, or some other receptor, doesn't necessarily have to be the 5HT2A, that means that DMT isn't, it either isn't binding to the receptor or it's not activating the receptor in the same way. It could also be a metabolic issue. It could be that they are metabolizing DMT.

extremely rapidly. But Rick Strasman found that in about 5%, I think it was three people out of 60, so exactly 5%, even at the highest dose level, 0.4 milligrams per kilogram, which was more than a breakthrough dose, they experienced no effects whatsoever of DMT. So we want to study that as well. Yes, that's very interesting. Do genetic work, you know, take samples and actually look at the genome of these people and say, what are the differences? And that's more, that's easier to. explain than the lockout the lockout is very very difficult i had never heard that before yeah um what's happening to the serotonin in the in the brain while they're under for so long is it just getting metabolized are they having mood issues when they come back um no i mean people the the

the imperial college study the aim of it was to kind of look at that right is it is this safe and is it tolerable. If you're on SSRIs, I don't think you should do this. No. What's with the problem with SSRIs generally is that people don't experience as intense effects. So kind of blunts the effect because you get changes in the expression of certain serotonin receptors. But yeah, if you're in any kind of psychiatric medication for whatever condition, then tread carefully. That's a general kind of warning to anyone, not just DMT. but all psychedelics. You'd be very, very careful

because they are contraindicated for certain people. These aren't toys. But yeah, I mean, DMTX, it's shown to be safe and tolerable. People broadly were able to handle the experience and come out absolutely fine, even though they were in there for... And now there's been...

Matthias Leekty, I think, in Basel, had his subjects under for, I think, three hours or something like that. at a fairly low level, not the breakthrough level, but he also had like a device where they could adjust the infusion rate so they could control their experiences. We're going to see more of those kind of studies where we start to learn how to use the DMTX technology

to really not just spend more time, but actually be able to navigate the space and increase and adjust the depth of the experience in real time. At a low dose, are they responsive? Yeah, I mean, even at the high dose, weirdly. Even at the high dose? Yeah, I mean, auditory response, not visual, but during the imperial study, one of the annoying things is that for the subjects,

Carl talks about this a lot, is that they were being asked, like, questions, like, you know, what's the intensity now between one and ten, which three, what's it now? Do you see entities, yes or no, you know, what's the entity level? All these questions. So you can never kind of just let go and enjoy or, you know, work within the space. You always have to be, have one ear to the team waiting on the other side. I would be kind of annoyed, actually. Yeah, that's the deal because they need to get all of that data as well.

But at least as, of course, you don't have to, you're free to kind of explore for as long as you like. How different is the ayahuasca experience from DMTX? this is a very good question, AJ, because one of the kind of the pushbacks that we got, me and Rick, when we publish this, people would say, well, just ayahuasca, that's an extended DMT state. And in a sense, they're right. But in several other senses, they're wrong. So with a regular DMT experience, brain DMT levels rise and then drops down very rapidly. with ayahuasca, because of the monoamine oxidase inhibitor,

the harmein and homiline within the traditional preparation, that's kind of extended. So it rises slowly and then it starts to kind of tail off gradually over time. You still have the peak, you still have the drawdown, but it's stretched out. That kind of concentration curve is stretched out. So it's not, you never achieve a stable brain DMT concentration with ayahuaski. you're still at the mercy of your metabolism and pharmacokinetics.

But also with ayahuasca, Dennis McKenna, I think it was, actually looked at blood concentrations of DMT of people who took ayahuasca and people who took like ejected high dose of breakthrough level DMT. And the peak blood, a brain or blood DMT concentration in ayahuasca is only around less than 20% of what you achieve with ejected DMT. So it's an extended, but actually generally it's a much milder, softer experience. Whereas what we're doing with DMTX is to push someone right into the breakthrough state. If they want to, you don't have to.

You can have lower levels as well. But in theory, you can bring them up into the breakthrough state and then hold them there in the breakthrough state for as long as possible. So you have real time control over the DMT state. You don't get that with anything close to that with IOWAS. That's interesting. Because in my own experience, sometimes you just can't get there. I just can't break through.

I just end up in the room of geometric shapes. Right. And then I'm back. Usually because I'm stressed or distracted or a dog is barking or something. This is ayahuasca or with... No, just DMT. Just DMT. I don't always break through.

But I haven't tried in a very long time. Pass the statute of limitations. Your alien insati, I am. Why? Well, aliens. I've been interested in aliens and alien intelligence. Not aliens is like gray beings in metallic disks, shimmering in the night sky, that kind of thing.

Although it is interesting. That stuff doesn't connect to this at all? Oh, I think it does, yeah. I think it does. But yeah, I've been interested in the idea of alien intelligence and insects. Well, these are kind of insectoid beings are kind of a common entity within the DMT space. So alien insect, why not?

I came up with that name, and now it's my handle on X and Instagram. Did you ever see the mantids during a trip? I've never seen a mantis. I didn't either. A lot of people have, though. Yeah. I don't want to.

How to so? It's another problem with breaking through is if you go in anxious, it's also not advisable. Yeah. I mean, most people have relatively pleasant, although extremely bizarre experiences, but the most common type of entity people encounter is actually more of a guiding presence, often described as like a motherly, caring presence that guides you through the space,

all the different, in my experiences from way back, there's a very strong sense of being taken, as if like we've got so little time when I only show you this and this and this and you can't bring any of it back if it's so short but this very real sense of being guided very, very rapidly through all these different rooms, I want to say rooms

are all completely different and all equally strange and baffling and bewildering and then you're deposited back in the real say the real world you're deposited back in the normal waking world and you don't really remember those rooms do you because I don't

Yeah, I remember getting there and coming back. Yeah, that's about it. It's a wild experience. So how do we connect the UFO phenomenon to this? I'm starting to think about Jacques-fil-A now and his theory about UFOs' consciousness and why different cultures we perceive the fairies, then we perceive this,

and now we're onto orbs, depending on where we are culturally. Yeah. I mean, ballet, John Mack, if you remember John Matt, he wrote Abduction. He was this hard-nosed psychiatrist until he started interacting with and working with these so-called abductees or experiences. Yeah, Harvard didn't like that. Harvard didn't like that at all. Understandably, to be honest.

But I think his perspective shifted throughout. I mean, it did clearly shifted from the idea that we're talking that the UAP phenomenon or the non-human intelligence phenomenon is about biological beings that are arriving from other areas of the universe. I think that's pretty short-sighted and feels kind of outdated now. And he started to think that actually we're talking, the abduction experience was more of a altered state of consciousness, as if these experiences were being induced into some altered states of consciousness

and interacting with normally imperceptible beings. And of course, this fits perfectly with, that's DMT. If you read, in abduction John Mack's first book, there is an account of this woman who was an abductee who has described these small, lively, beings kind of bounding around. I mean, this is a Terrence McKenna machine elf trip report. It's exactly the same.

Rick Strasman also noted that if they had taken some of his trip reports out of context and put it in one of John Mack's books, nobody would have questioned it because they were like, they seemed like, you know, you have this sophisticated laboratory type environment and you've got these being, you've got these small beings like workers or orderlies, and then you have these more powerful, supervising beings that are kind of in the background. I hear that story all the time. Yeah, that's an abduction experience,

and it's also features prominently in DMT reports. So an abduction, could that be like an indigenous DMT experience? It could be an endogenous DMT experience. It could be that these... I think we need to get away from the idea that an alien is... is something that exists within this reality. This is very limited perspective that we're dealing with wet-bodied, wet-brain biological beings,

that we're dealing with some other kind of intelligence that isn't necessarily, quote-unquote, physical, but operates in some other domain. In just the same way that now we think about, or some people like me think about the DMT entities, is not spirits or gods, but some kind of intelligent agent that normally is always there, but we normally are completely imperceptible and can't interact with.

And I think that makes more sense, because there's nothing that says that these aliens must be physical beings. And one can imagine that, you know, I often talk about the anti-Kardasheff scale. You know the Kardashev scale? Sure. the idea, it's kind of an expansive idea, the idea that we, first we occupy this single planet, then we start harvesting the energy from the nearest star, and then it's kind of, it's the idea

that as an intelligent species progresses technologically and cognitively, they start to occupy larger and larger areas of the cosmos, right? That's the way we think about it. We're like a high level zero. We're a high level zero. But John Barrow, the cosmologist, noted quite correct. that actually most of our tech we do of course we send probes and rockets up into elsewhere in the solar system etc but actually most of our technological advances

have been not outwards but inwards to smaller and smaller scales that's true yeah you know down to from the molecular to biochemistry and all the way through to the atomic and then the subatomic sure people talking about strings people get deeper and deeper down into the ground of reality. That's where all of our kind of technological efforts has been downwards. That's right. He developed what he called the micro-dimensional mastery scale, which is like the anti-Karachev scale, the Barrow scale, John Barrow.

And the kind of the, he had the minus one, minus two, minus three, minus four, rather than plus one, right? And he posited something, which is, he referred to as the omega-minus. level. This is when a technological species is able to actually control and manipulate the very ground of reality itself, whatever that is. So we're past the quantum, we're past even perhaps the plank scale. Past the plank scale. Right down, whatever's beyond, right? Quantum mechanics, of course, stops working at the blank scale. You know, John, Don Hoffman would say, we're talking about consciousness here. Right. Physicalists would say something else. Doesn't really

matter. But basically, when a species is able to work at the fundamental level of reality, that's the kind of the fundamental computational substrate of reality itself. That's where they're going to go. They're going to find a way of instantiating themselves at the ground of reality. They're not going to be trying to kind of approach light speed and expand through the cosmos. They're going to try to go downwards. And there's a lot more room downwards. Right. You don't need light speed if you get down there. You don't need light speed if you get down there, right? And there's much more room.

There's like, I forget what the exact number is, but if you look at the distance in terms of relative size, from human size to the size of the universe, or from human size to the plank scale, I think it's like millions and millions times bigger down there, or times smaller than it is bigger going up there. The 10 to the minus 35, I think. Yeah, that's the plank scale, right? So in other words, there's a lot more room at the bottom than there is up there, much more room, which means that that's the direction we go. That's where we look for intelligence.

And how do you do that? How would an intelligent species that had instantiated itself at the ground of reality, perhaps billions of years before our solar system even came to be, how would you communicate with that kind of intelligence? Or how would they communicate with us? They do it through our brains, because that's how we. experience the world. They wouldn't appear necessarily or manifest if they would simply use our brains to communicate with us. And that would take the form of, as Jack Vallet said, that would take the form of what we normally describe as lucidatory experience. Sure. You know, altered states of consciousness. That's how you do it. So DMT, it's like DMT is in some way facilitating that

experience that allows us to interact with these beings that or conscious agents or whatever you want to call them that have been around perhaps forever but certainly a lot longer than we've been it starts to um you can't avoid the question now is very interesting i love when my mind is blown on this show which has been i hadn't considered looking down because if you can get past the plank scale then you don't need light speed travel because you're essentially in the dimension where entanglement works, so you can go anywhere? Yeah, where physics that we don't have any conception of works,

basically. At the moment, we don't have anything deeper than the quantum. Everything stops working there. So what lies beyond that? What is the fundamental substrate of reality? And once you understand that, then you can manipulate and even instantiate yourselves as intelligent beings at that level.

And then we have no conception of how that might work Is that God? Well, I wouldn't say it's God, but I would say that we could be dealing with beings that are indistinguishable from gods, in that they are so advanced that we simply cannot conceive of how advanced they are. That would be my suggestions. We have no conception of what they would be like or whether they could even take on a visual form in any kind. kind of way. We just have nothing. We have no reference. When we had little beings, we had references, you know, they've got head and got big eyes and that kind of made sense. We can,

we can slot it into our picture of reality, but we're talking about intelligences that we simply have no conception of what they might be like. That's a wild idea. And the idea that we could actually maybe interface with them by taking this plant alkaloic called DMT, it's an even wilder idea. Yeah, it is. I bet it feels like it's by design to me. It's too convenient. It does feel like that. Yeah. I would never say that that's the case, but there is something uncanny about DMT, but it's ubiquity throughout the natural world and yet this incredibly crisply efficient tool by which we can access these other realms and these beings. It feels like they want us to find them, but I've never heard of a lockout before. That's very interesting.

as you've seen enough. What do you think happens to us when we die? Well, that came from left field. I wasn't expecting that question. The short answer is I don't know, but I certainly don't think... I'm past the idea that there was this infinite period of time

before I was born when I simply didn't exist. There's this brief... The lights are on, for this briefest of flickers of light, for a briefest amount of time. and it's off again. Yeah.

And I think it was Alan Watts who said, think about the state after you die, you don't exist. Then think about the state before you were born. You don't exist. So those are indistinguishable, right? The state before you were born is identical to the state after you die. So what happened then?

Well, we know what happened then. So I don't think, I think we're part of something that is, we occupy this very, very thin slice of something far grander and far more mysterious and far more profound and strange than we can conceive, and I just get the sense that this is like, I often describe reality, certain human reality, as some kind, it feels like a game of some sort.

It's just play, right? And the Hindus will tell you that. They will say, oh, Brahman, he's Lila, This is the play. The play at making the world. It's all one cosmic drama. We take it very, very seriously. And the part of the game is working out that it's a game,

that it shouldn't take it seriously. This is just a ride, right? As Bill Hicks used to say. I get that sense that we, I don't take reality. I don't take life seriously. In that I don't think it's a really somber, serious, important thing. I think it's just a beautiful experience that we have for this briefest

periods of time that we should enjoy it like we didn't enjoy any other ride at the fairground or something like that. What happens after? I don't know, but it's something we all have to look forward to. You subscribe to the idea that there's a sort of a universal consciousness and when we're born, we're kind of spawned out of that. We come here, we have experiences and we bring it back to the source? Well, that's what conscious realism says as well, is that there is one, described as a conscious agent network, but ultimately there is, there's nothing but consciousness. So sure, absolutely. Ultimately, there is one unified consciousness. And that's, again, that's the oldest message. You know, Brockland, what is Brockland? That's the ultimate reality,

and everything else is illusion. You know, and it's all the same illusion. Timothy Leary used to say, It's all the same illusion. And so this reality is an illusion. In a sense, the DMT space is also an illusion. It doesn't mean it's not real. You're still interacting with consciousness, but everything has, all experiences have the same ontological validity. They're all as real as each other in some way.

They're just different ways of experiencing. And so eventually you kind of get past these questions of, oh, is DMT real or is it not real? And that question no longer, almost doesn't make any sense anymore. I didn't ask it. I know you did. I wasn't blaming you, AJ, here. But people always ask me that, do you believe it's real?

And before I would give long arguments, I'm maturing now where I actually think, actually, I'm kind of past that now. There's a part of me that thinks it's all part of this grand cosmic drama. and there are different ways to play it and different tools we can use to explore. We have this vast, vast, you know, the kind of the playground of reality that we can explore.

And DMT and other psychedelics and other tools are ways that we can get out of this very small region of this vast playground and enjoy it and experience it and think, wow, the fucking incredible majesty of reality. that we're part of it, we're inextricably part of it. You know, we are a conscious agent or built from conscious agents, as is everything else,

and everything else is experiencing the world in its own way. That's an incredible thing to realize. And then these little questions about, is it real or not real, they don't mean anything. They don't, no. That's why I love interface theory. Anything else you want to discuss before we go? This has been wonderful.

I'd just like to say, well, I certainly would like, Like, you know, if anyone wants to learn more about my work, certainly read my book, Death by Astonishment. It's an amazing book. You want to read, understand the history of DMT all the way back to thousands of years, really, in indigenous plant preparations, all the way through to 20th century and beyond and what I think about DMT, the neuroscience of DMT, why I think it's not just hallucination and what it could be and all of that stuff.

That's everything I've learned about DMT in the last 30 years is in death by astonishment. so please get that. Please follow me on X, Twitter, alien insect, as you said, or Instagram, also alien insect. Go to new nautics.org if you want to learn about the research programs that we're developing at New Nautics, and if anyone wants to experience DMTX themselves in a 100% legal, safe, medically supervised environment,

go to elusis mind, e-L-E-U-S-I-S-Mind.com, and they can sign up to spend a few days on this beautiful. beautiful, tropical, Caribbean island. And I think that covers it, AJ. All right. Dr. Andrew Galmore, this has been a treat and a joy. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Bye, everybody. That was Dr. Andrew Gallimore. We covered the history of DMT, what it does to your brain, and his theory that the beings people meet are real. Now, there's not much to challenge here. DMT is a real compound that's found in most living things. It was first synthesized in the 30s

and found to be psychoactive in the 50s. But why does it exist? Well, in 2019, a University of Michigan lab induced cardiac arrest in rats and measured a surge of DMT in the dying brain. So one theory is that when brain cells are running out of oxygen, DMT can protect those cells. Maybe that's why we produce it.

Maybe not, nobody really knows. The real question is whether the experience is more than a hallucination. Still no proof, but Andrew's looking. Then there's Andrew's work with Donald Hoffman, Hoffman argues we never see reality, only an interface like icons on a screen.

And I'm a fan of Donald Hoffman's work, look him up on YouTube. Especially because he could explain, if not prove, his theory of consciousness with math. And I love that the two of them are working together. And Andrew thinks the brain is acting like a radio, DMT switches the channel, and suddenly retuned into a dimension populated

by actual sentient beings. Here's an argument for that. A woman did one of these extensive, in Colorado. She was 20 minutes in, and the DMT was still pumping into her veins. And she was deep in conversation with one of these beings, then the being said, I think we're done for today. And the vision just stopped. The machine was still running. The drug was still in her system. So, pharmacologically, that should be impossible, but it happened. Andrew is a real scientist. Cambridge, Oxford, real credentials. He's asking a question most

scientists won't touch. Are these beings real? And he's creating experiments to test it. The blue yellow screen, the lackout studies, all of it. Nobody else is doing this. Now, I would ensure that the beings are just in your mind. And I came out less sure. His book, Death by Astionishment, is fantastic. It's on Amazon. His nonprofit is nino-notics.org. I'll link that down below. Try to spell it properly. The legal DMT retreat is elus at elususmind.com. And the elusis retreat is basically a luxury vacation in the Bahamas. But I have to be honest, it's not cheap. It's hard to find pricing, and I wasn't going to ask them. But rumors say it could be anywhere from $9,500 or more. So I'm just letting you know. But if you're going to explore consciousness,

the best way to do that is legally with a doctor present. Don't mess with any of this stuff on your own. It's not fun. I promise. Until next time, be safe. Really, be safe. Be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated. Don't mess with it. Play, believe it be a scenario 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music. So I'm saying like I should.

But then another piece theory, see theory becomes the truth. And it never ends No, it never ends The crap cat And got stuck inside males hole With M. K. Out truck Being only to a wedding alone On a film set with the shadow people

The Indians just fought the smiling man And I'm told And his name was cold And I can't believe The Mothman's sightings and the solar storm still come to have got the secret city underground Mysterious number stations, planets are both two, project star gate and where the dark watchers found

In a simulation, don't you worry though I'd stand