The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Danny Goler | The Laser Experiment and the Code Inside

Episode Date: July 6, 2026

-Download Cash App Today: https://click.cash.app/ui6m/re0kp2pw #CashAppPod As a Cash App partner, I may earn a commission when you sign up for a Cash App account. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Bitcoin services provided by Block, Inc. For additional information, see the Bitcoin disclosures. -Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call [phone] now. Danny Goler built a career on physical risk: parkour, stunts, national television. Then he pointed a cheap laser through DMT-altered vision and found something he wasn't looking for. Symbols. Structure. A language he now calls the code of reality. Thousands of strangers around the world have since aimed the same beam and reported identical shapes, without ever comparing notes. AJ pushes past the viral story into the parts most conversations skip: what Goler actually felt, what changed inside him, and where the science ends and the mystery begins. Goler walks through a vision that reshaped his understanding of divinity and free will, along with the encounter that convinced him something real is on the other side. This conversation goes further than most guests are willing to go. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today I'm talking with Danny Goler. A few years ago, Danny was on DMT when a being that looked like a frog appeared in his room and taught him guitar chords he didn't know how to play. That's when he became sure DMT beings are real. The Anurunaki engineered the human race and built the pyramids.

Not even reassigned to remote guitar lessons? What's next conversational Portuguese? Neal point. So he spent years trying to prove it. Eventually, he shined a cheap red laser at the wall, and saw symbols. A red laser reveals the source code of reality. Every cat on Earth has been chasing it that for decades.

It turns out the vicious little hell beast, we're reading human. We're going to stop him. We could be setting up the planet and a cat's. Damn you. Damn you all the hell. He calls it the code of reality. Now thousands of strangers have tried it and seen the same code. Today we're covering whether reality is a simulation,

his cosmology and how free will might really work. If this is a simulation, I'd like to lodge complaint. The graphics on my fishbow haven't gotten a single update since I moved it. Oh, complaints go in the circular file. And the console, a holographic control panel that opens up in his living room or any room every time he smokes DMT. And other people have seen this console. It's wild.

This conversation gets deep. probably too deep for me. But after we talk, I'll come back, I'll break down what I can, I'll verify what I can, and I'll also tell you what I couldn't verify. Let's go down to the basement. Danny Goller, welcome to the basement. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

Boy, I don't know where to beat again. Actually, I do. And I have a lot of questions for you. I'm excited that you're here. first what is it like when you're on national television an American Ninja Warrior and you're jumping for the monkey peg and you don't land it what is that what's going through your mind oh honestly that one I didn't feel bad at all because that year for some weird reason that first obstacle where you spin with the thing it took out most veterans so I basically I was one of the finalists

actually came to Vegas that year. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but the funny thing is that later, uh, I, I spoke to some climbers and I had no idea. I didn't even train for this thing. And they told me, dude, you, you need to lock your elbows. And I had no idea.

And apparently, you know, locking your elbows is a secret, but I was just hanging from my dear life from the beginning. So I was, if you look at that footage, I was holding to like, could hold no more. Like my fingers was still holding as I was falling. And the, the one thing that is a little disappointing in that is, because the next obstacle was the last one, which was the warp wall, which for me is back then a parkour practitioner for years, I could do it in my sleep, like with my eyes closed,

I could just climb it just by stepping up without even running. But I was still one of the finalists, which was fun, so yeah, the Ninja Warrior was fun. I did a couple of years. You did a couple of years? Yeah. So how do you go from actor, parkour, rerunning, filmmaker, to exploring reality? I took a lot of detours in life. Let's just call it that.

I think I was always, it sounds very loaded, but I think I was born to be a physicist probably, and I just never really completed school. But the way that I think and everything that I fall into my framework of the world is I'm approaching everything in terms of what we can know and to what degree, which is a very kind of like a physicist way of thinking about it. And obviously, I'm not placing myself in the same category because what is required to actually be a physicist is way more than just an attitude. It's also sitting your ass down for eight years and knowing things beyond, you know.

But so it's not really that weird that I find myself and just found myself in this position to me. But everything I did in Hollywood was more like, let's try it. Like everything I did in my life, I did it that way. the day before I moved to L.A., from Indiana, by the way, I was supposed to go to New York. And the last second, I just changed my mind. I was like, let's go to L.A. I've never been there. And I stayed there for 15 years, basically.

So everything I did was kind of like, when it felt right, I just kind of went for it. And, you know, I've done, I was still a very small fish in Hollywood. I didn't do anything like on a major stage. I rubbed shoulders with people that are very, very successful. But it became very clear to me that that whole world, there's glass ceilings that I don't like. Because I saw, like, we're not going to mention names when I met some actual A-listers. And I saw how they have to answer to other people.

I mean, it's still very impressive to get to where on that level. Sure. But it was very clear to me they're not calling the shots. And there's always like this, like kind of like this is only so far you can go. I don't know why it kind of turned me off from that whole world. So I, you know, I just kind of start exploring other things. And his faith would have it, right around that time, I kind of started stumbling into these ideas that eventually led me to what I'm known for today.

I totally agree about Hollywood is the A-listers, in order to make it to that level, and I tell people this, you have to have a certain type of type A cut-throat kind of mentality, which I didn't have when I was there. and you're in glass boxes everywhere, constantly answering to people, agents and managers, and that's why this medium is so exciting is because we can just do it ourselves now. We don't need anybody.

Yeah, yeah. It's the true freedom, and I think people should exploit it more, to be honest. Totally agree. Here's something that surprised me. Here's the thing about Bitcoin that took me a while to actually get. Owning it on some app doesn't mean much if you can't really access it.

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For additional information, see the Bitcoin Disclosures at Cash. slash legal slash podcast I loved it in 2017 three years before the laser you published contemplations of meaning wow you went digging

this was just like a tiny thing that I wrote for almost a yeah it was for steam right yeah yeah I remember now yeah I mean what resonated with me in that essay which people can go find

it's a quick read is how you described creativity as a creative person how you described it as rediscovering something, that you're not really creating, like, it was always there. And that kind of resonated with me. Is that how you feel? I think we're, yeah, I think we're coming back to remembrance.

And one time we, me and my now wife, we went hiking in the Rockies, and we throughout the whole hike, we were thinking about, we're basically imagining ourselves in real time. as God remembering what it was like when God still, you know, was like all these like different paths that led to it, basically. And I was like, what if it's actually what's happening? Like, we are one of these memories that God has of whatever reality is. And it put a different emphasis on everything.

Everything was more shiny. Everything was more meaningful and deep. And also, I think our connection grew from that, from that interaction. We just started dating back then. So I think there's something to that. I think that ultimately reality red discovers itself. But on the other hand,

I'm totally on board and I also like the idea that maybe the cutting edge of what is possible in the universe is as a surprise to it as it is to the node that registers that experience like ourselves. That's a pretty cool thought as well.

Like if you had a novel thought, what if the universe never thought of it either like it thought it through you there's some there's a deep connection there as well there is that I hadn't considered that that's really interesting I don't know if you know Eric Wargro's work but he's very influential on me I recommend time loops is a great book

you'd love this guy and he talks about creativity as your future self sending memories essentially back through time that you're pre-membring this creativity that's amazing yeah there's something about there's something about as as a creative person yourself you that's that's why it resonates i feel like because the experience of coming up with these creative things is very unique and it's not like anything else it has a feeling attached to it that

that when you have it you know it but it's very hard to put your finger on it because it has this like sense of novelty which is you know if you want we can always get into it in the conversation but that to me actually is what separates what AIs are doing, what we're doing. To my mind, actually, what we do is that. That's the central point. But it will always require this kind of an agent like ourselves to have this first initial creative moment. And then you can use AIs to actually move it way faster along the chain of, you know,

does it hold water? Does it result in some kind of an automation or something? Like what results it can bring in the world? So you can accelerate that process, but that first initial creative moment, there's something very unique about it, because I do think it comes from some kind of an eternal soup of everything, basically. Now I have to go off script. I have to go off script because I really like that.

So AI, predictive models, LLMs, as they stand now, really can't be creative because they're trained on stuff that's already been invented. So it's nothing new under the sun. Is he asked these 1-9? do you think AI will get to the point where it can be creative? And if they can, is it sentient? I don't think so, but I'm willing to be wrong about it. So there's this famous moment between David Deutsch and Sam Altman

when he asks Deutsch about this conviction that he has, which is along the lines of what you just voiced, and I belong to the same camp. So he basically said, Sam asked him, would you be surprised, would you be willing to concede, I think he said, that if it comes up with some kind of a theoretical framework that we really haven't considered before, will it convince you that and Deutsch concede it? Yeah, of course. So I'm in the same camp. If it does something like that, I'm willing to be wrong about it. But my intuition is that,

which is part of a much deeper awareness that I came to, which is that we are that AGI. So this is what this is. This simulation is the alignment happening. So we're being aligned, basically. And these AIs, they're basically internal tools, their reflections of what what's possible for us. So you can ask it to just answer your emails, but you're missing the point. You can use it to interact with the infinite tapestries of meaning within you faster and in a way that builds a much more coherent picture as a whole. So you can, you know, if you come up with the right questions, you can actually get to places with it that you couldn't have possibly come without it because you simply don't have the, you simply don't have the, you know, you

you don't have the capacity, right? But because it is, just as you very correctly said, I think, it is just the totality of everything that humans currently know, you now at your disposal, in addition to your thought and ideation, you have everything that humans know. You just have to know where to look, so to speak, right? Right.

Yeah, so that, to me, is the exciting part. With the full admission that if we misuse it and just keep doing it like a, do this for me, do that for me, then yeah, then you're going to get dumber. Like you actually don't, but that would be the indicator of what you are. So like, because it is the perfect mirror for us,

people always said, oh, if I can't just get that jinny in a bottle, right? Here it is. That's literally the genie in the bottle. Like anything you want, anything. But you've got to, the final frontier is your imagination. And most people don't realize that if you get carte blanche to do anything, that's actually the hardest position to find yourself in.

Sure. What question? to ask the genie is hard. Yeah. Some limitations is actually nice. When somebody gives you some prerequisites of the game, it's actually very relieving, and people don't realize it. I've been a voice it a few times recently,

but I think it's a really good... It was kind of mind-blowing to me, like the illustration was so simple. It was when Jordan Peterson was on Joe Rogan, and he demonstrated it to him in real time. He basically told Joe your turn. And obviously Joe froze, so obviously he was playing a bit of a schick.

But it was effective. He said, your turn. And then Joe just looked at him like, why we do? What are we doing? This is stupid, right? He didn't say anything, but that was his face. And then he's like, okay, what, like, okay, just tell me. Basically, Joe said, okay, I got it.

Just tell me the thing. And then Jordan goes, well, it's interesting. I just allowed you to play the infinite game. Your turn. And yet the first thing your brain is doing is looking for the rules. You want me to tell you what are we doing, right? So he said, the number of rules for ultimate freedom is not zero. I thought it was very profound.

I think there's something there. So it's almost like it's trying to teach us how to be less and less constrained, constrained by different factors, and still come up with something creative to do next. That's really what is being tested here, I think. Is that tie into your two-game theory about the puzzle versus the finite versus the infinite? The finite versus the infinite, the collaborative versus the competitive. Yeah, they're basically the same thing. So, like, if you, it expresses itself.

So the infinite has to be expressed in games that can survive for longer periods of time. And my proposition is that the competitive game is awesome, very energizing, but it's energizing in small bursts. That's the finite game. Exactly. You are within a closed set, that game makes sense. Within an open set, that game stops making sense because you have to rely, because part of the first game, the competitive game, part of it sometimes part of the game is

trying to eliminate other agents and just throw them off the board. You can't trust that for thousands of years. No. But if you're part of a species that is energized and is excited by the collaborative prospect, just for the sake of that, just like, oh my God, I'm going to show up this morning, I'm going to work with these amazing people. We're going to build this insane structure in space or go to another planet. Yeah, it's going to take 2,000 years, but we're working towards it, right?

So if that's the attitude that is pumping through the veins of a civilization of that kind, then all of a sudden you can trust the game and you can trust it indefinitely. And I also think this is why these concepts of alignment have to include that part, which is why kind of, you know, ethics and all of these kind of like the Ten Commandments,

like just the moral framework. is so important because the way we're trying to solve the alignment problem currently in AI research is that we're basically trying to say, I call it infinite ethical whackamo. Well, let me slow you down.

The alignment problem, just to find that for the audience. Yeah, so in AI research is something called the alignment problem, which is basically how do you make sure that Claude or Chad GPT don't just squash us when they become SkyNet, right?

Right. And then the way they're trying to go about it is that ethical whackamo I'm mentioning, which is like you just you try to target a specific situation. The reason it's not sustainable or not realistic to solve that way because just like with the genie in a bottle, if you solve this thing,

three other things that you didn't foresee because of it will pop up and that will be a problem, right? The reality of it is that in an infinite universe, all intents and purposes, you have infinite kinds of scenarios that can arise and you can't possibly predict all of them. So the only thing you can rely on is you need to create some kind of a framework

or a system or a simulation that trains good people because the definition of a good person is someone who, to the best of their ability, considers more than just themselves in that particular situation. They just think, and the extent to which they include more and more than just their own agency, I would define them as better and better people, right?

Because you can trust that kind of attitude. What you're essentially asking isn't like, how can I think of all the possible scenarios that can go wrong and solve them in advance, that's impossible, how do you create an agent that cares enough to actually be an awareness of how these things can go wrong and then try and steer the other way, right, not just for themselves but for others. Everyone's watching the economy and waiting for things to stabilize. Here's the problem. They've been saying that for years. 39 trillion in debt, another trillion added every few weeks, and your dollar is quietly losing ground every single month. So let's say,

Let's look at what's actually been working. Over the past year, gold is up around 35%. Silver is up 125%. The stock market, around 27%. That's not a fluke, that's a pattern. And it's got the attention of the biggest players in finance. Bank of America is calling silver at $309 an ounce. Top banks are projecting gold at $6,300.

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And all of a sudden, all of these, you know, the, I guess, religious and spiritual ideas, all of a sudden make sense. Like, yeah, like, if you don't pass that alignment problem, you don't become, you don't reformulate yourself as the whole, we're all one and all that stuff, and you don't actually get to play the bigger game. And there's stages to this. So, like, even within our universe, I think that the reason that the distances between stars are so enormous is exactly for this reason. That even before you get to play in some multidimensional game or whatever, even just in our physical universe, is like, here's all this real estate that you can see.

How do you get there? And right now, we're only thinking about it in terms of technical problems. What I don't think we realize is that in order to actually solve that, you can't just solve the technical problem. you also have to solve the interpersonal problem because that would allow you to step into the collaborative game but not in a performative sappy kind of way but in a real way and then all of a sudden the kinds of technologies required to do that will probably be a piece of cake because even the ideation would be collaborative

and I think that's when the mind this is where all this kind of unification goes but you can't get there unless you're willing to unify if you're acting out of fear out of lack again all of these like very kind of chewed up spiritual concepts that float around now. But they're true. If you don't get there, you simply don't get to play that bigger game. I totally get it.

And I think AI is going to help us with that. And a little bit later, I want to talk to you about your thoughts and theories on cosmology. Before we get there, you're born in Moscow, raised in Israel, served in the military.

In L.A., we're thinking about New York. Indiana, then, L.A., Indiana, L.A. So when someone asked you where you're from, what do you say? America. There's actually never, it's weird because I never felt like I belonged and I never really felt a sense of home or even the feeling of just like being a part of anything.

I wasn't like a, I definitely had issues with authority, but it wasn't to an extent of like, you know, rebellion, you know, on like very extreme levels. I did get in trouble with the law a little bit when I was younger, for sure, but like it wasn't like on, you know, on like crazy level. but America was the first place ever. I remember when I became an actual citizen, when I actually became an American and got naturalized,

I don't remember the last time I felt so much elation. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So it is a little painful for me to watch how many Americans don't like this country, maybe because I had to make an effort to be here. There's nothing that I'm more proud to be a part of

and more proud to call myself than an American, which is something that is not very, it's not trending right now, but I, but that, that's a, that's a real feeling in me. It's trending, it's trending with me. I didn't expect you to say that. Yeah. I, I, I thought we were going to go back. I thought you were going to say Israel. That's really nice that you consider yourself an American. I'd love to. No, I, sorry I'm cutting you off. That's important for me to say. So like, for the obvious reasons with everything it's going on right now, it's kind of, you know, it's very painful to watch because of the amount of lies that I see, being propagated online.

Yep. But for fairness, there's a reason why I left Israel. It wasn't the reason that most people that hate Israel currently think that it is, because it isn't almost none of those things. But there is some cultural things that I don't jive with. Like, there's just, I don't feel like I belong to that kind of way of seeing things. Can I give an example without? Yeah, people are definitely very rude very often.

There's this kind of like bravado. that you can say that is arising from the stress of the situation of being in that position. That makes sense. Which I can understand. You're always on edge. Always on edge. Actually, it's such a difficult thing to outline because you kind of have to be there to understand it. There's nuances there.

But there is a lot of aggression towards one another. And this is where it gets very dicey because the aggression is not of, the aggression is not of the bloodthirsty kind that people kind of imagine, right? It's like a very kind of like interpersonal, low-key thing that does, can get a lot like on a personal level. And at the same time, somehow the reverence for life and helping each other and helping even people that are, you know, you sometimes consider enemies is unparalleled.

Like literally it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. And that's a very difficult thing to outline. So I usually stay away from this part of the conversation because I see that the emotional charge around it is just too great for people to be able to observe any real information about it. That's true. The one?

That's true. Yeah. But for me, I'm hopeful about the world because I do think that ultimately, the only thing we can do is the best from where we're sitting right now. So me worrying about what is the ultimate state of affairs it's kind of like worthless

because there's nothing I can do about certain things. but in the little pockets that I do occupy in my day to day, I try to do my best to promote the kind of behavior that I would love to see in others, and I do everything I can that none of it is performative. That's really important. Very often people act a certain way without being that way. And I think that is one of the more corrosive parts of how we do things today,

because online everything is so inviting, the performance part of it. Yep. But I think that there is a way to drop more into the present moment and the body and the one-on-one to see what it actually is like to just truly care about the immediate experience with another human.

So let me ask you. Yeah. Because in researching your work, I see duality in you and tension everywhere in a good way. In a good way. No, I know. In a good way.

So when you talk about performance, you're an actor, filmmaker, all of that, do you ever find yourself... This is not a snarky question because I'm also an actor. Sure, sure, yeah, yeah. You ever find yourself in a performance

and you have to kind of check yourself and, like, dial it back? No, not anymore. Not anymore, but you used to. I think to any degree that... The thing is that... So the thing that needs to be outlined here

is that everybody does it to certain degrees they're not aware of. And only when you do become aware of it, it became clear to do that you were performing. So to the extent that I can observe in myself, and meditation had a big part of it, because it's easier to actually, you practice how to actually notice yourself

to deeper and deeper degrees. There's a certain flow, flow state that is associated with actually just being here truly and willing to air out your thoughts truthfully in that moment, even if it comes off the wrong way. And the more you practice to do that and trust it, it doesn't always go well, by the way. But the more you do that and you realize, oh, I was not demolished by this, the easier it is to do. And that's the tool that I've found

that is the most effective. So very often I would come up with a, let me think of, if I can think of an example. Well, here's the thing. Like, for example, that example is a little broad, but but everybody can associate with this. Very often in a conversation, it all of a sudden becomes clear to you like how you can potentially either omit certain information or just steer the conversation in your favor.

And not even in ways that are conniving or like, it's just like, I don't have to go there and I just won't. But at the same time, you know that maybe the other person would actually benefit from going there. If I assessed it inside of myself before, I wouldn't enter that part because why do I need to bother?

Right. Now I will. Now you will. Yeah. If I feel like it truly is, and I don't necessarily want to spend the energy or the time, obviously I have to assess what I have that energy. But if I feel that truly the person would benefit from this, even though I have no idea how we're going to navigate this,

what I'm going to do is I'm just going to burn the boats. I'm just going to say it right away. Before I have the time to assess of like, should we, should we not? I would just say it. And then you're here now. Now you have to talk about it. And then, so things like this. And then eventually, over time, it became clear to me what is the truly kind of beneficial thing in a lot of these instances.

So to the extent that I can muster in that moment, I am trying to be a good person in the same definition as before. Trying to consider more than just myself in that moment, but truly. And I don't even care if the person will understand that that's what's happening. I know that I know that that's what I was doing. and then if it goes in the wrong direction, then you learn from that. You say, oh, interesting, okay, well, maybe not always bringing everything else. And then you just keep dialing it in.

But it is, it does imply more, more emotional pain sometimes than you necessarily have to go through. Well, yeah, what would interactions be like if everyone did this? I think a lot better. You do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not talking about just like saying the thing. it has to also come with an understanding of what the person is.

It takes some practice. People who say things like, well, I'm just being real. It's like, well, no, because the other part of being real is also considering trying to discern the person's readiness to hear certain things. And if you've done none of the work to try and figure it out, it's not their job to all of a sudden handle certain levels of understanding if they never even thought about that. Now you just shattered their world, right? So like, you didn't do any service for no one.

Like you just felt like it was for you. You wanted to feel a certain way. That's right. And this is why it's such a difficult. So this, it's a very difficult ground to walk on because the truth of it is truly just in the moment. Which sounds, you know, super kind of cheesy. But it's true. Like it really is just in that moment and in no other moment.

Like the truth about whatever this exact moment would look like, with a slightly different person in a slightly different time can be radically different because of whatever exactly in that moment, not just in the grander scheme of things. So it is, I would consider it to some degree in art and I think some people are naturally better at it

than others. I was definitely not good at it. I think I had some disabilities of, I don't know if disabilities are right word, but I had some tilt to my cognition in such a way that I would constantly step when someone stows without realizing it. Something would go wrong in a social setting

and I wouldn't understand what just happened. I'm not good at this. Yeah. I'm not good at this. Yeah. And then I learned that if I can just put my honest best foot forward, somehow things started working differently and I noticed it. I noticed like people relax.

I was like, ooh, why did I relax? What happened? I think there's something very deep inside of us that recognizes predatoryal attitudes. And sometimes people don't even realize that they carry predatoryal attitudes. So, for example, I had a case where I grew up, and I had a pretty, like, you know, childhood was not very,

it was fine. Like, I wasn't like, you know, there was definitely some stuff that people would nowadays call, like, things, reasons for trauma, but nothing on a level of, like, your parents being addicted to heroin or anything like that. But there's definitely a lot of pain that came from some things in the childhood

that then later I saw were translating to a very aggressive attitude towards others, which was just a defense mechanism because I realized the second you go violent, people respect and then they just back off. So then that was my safe space and then one day a really good friend of mine

who I've now known for 30 years he pulled me to the side one time because we were working in the same company and he basically pulled me aside and he said, hey man, I have to bring it to your attention when you talk to people they're literally afraid of you.

And that hurt me so deeply because it's such an isolating, especially when you're not trying to be, if you're trying to be a mobster, that's a great thing if somebody tells you that, right? It's like, oh, good. But I was so, I was trying to connect.

So imagine you trying your best to connect with people and what comes out of it because I was basically talked to them like that, you know, and it was like this very kind of like, just, I'm watching you. It was a lot of that, right? But for me, I didn't feel like I was doing that. So imagine what a shock that was to hear that.

Ooh, you must have really trusted him to make, I mean, you made a life change there. Yeah, I mean, it was very hurtful, it was very painful, but he did me a huge solid. And I realized, oh, wow, okay. And it was right before I really entered any real serious spiritual seeking. Back then, it was very clear to me that any spiritual attempt is just like, it's for the weak. You know, it's just people just, they can't handle the finality of life, all that jazz, right? And then I, that's right before I start.

I think the first entry was actually Eckhart Tolle. It was right before kind of like I read a new earth. And then I was like, oh, this actually makes a lot of sense. Like in a very simple way, right? And then I started looking there and then... I remember you telling a story somewhere where you were gifted an Akhter Toli book and you were kind of annoyed by it. Yeah.

Like, this is nonsense. It was a woman I was seeing and, you know, a pretty girl gift you something. You take it. Yeah. But I was begrudgingly took it. And I just threw it on the, you know, I was like, okay. I felt the same way about Tolly until I read it. And I was like, holy shit.

Yeah. He's right. It's all. And then I went on a crazy ride finding out who he was because it's so important for me who's speaking the words. You can say so much about the person, which by the way, speaking about all the stuff that, not specifically, but like really anything in the world that people are watching, I know it's really hard to kind of follow the big events. Don't. Don't follow the people. Watch the people.

You can say so much, you can see so much by the micro-expressions of the people involved in saying the thing. And you can still stray, you can still have like a person who was actually really well-intention

and they just don't know how to express themselves well. But for the most part, you can see, you can see if there's like an actual attempt to harm. There's a thing there. If you look closely,

you can see that. And it's hard to not project. But anyways, I digress. That part was so key for me when I was watching Eckhart. Because after I read the book, I was like, okay, hold on, let me find out. I started watching interviews with him.

And I mean, it's, I mean, Eckhart is just like, is like, a holy person. You know what I mean? It's like, you watch that person. He's like, oh, come on. Like, this is ridiculous. His audiobooks are amazing. Yeah. So there's this calm and peace and love and you can feel it.

So I was like, oh, my God, this is. And I had a struggle for, for years. I was like, yeah, but I want, I want the, this. Like, I want. I want nice things. I want pretty girls. I want that. That's okay.

Exactly. But back then it was, I was in my 20s. I was still kind of like finding my, you know, what does that mean? If you're spiritual, it means you can't do this or you can't do that.

And over time, you start to understand, of course, that's totally okay. And you just, and you just find your rhythm. What message you think she was trying to send to you?

She was trying to tell you something by giving you that book. I think she was influenced by his first book and she gifted me the second. I think that's what happened. But maybe, who knows? Yeah.

I never, you know, it's funny, till this day, I never thought about that, but you just asked me. She's super interesting. Huh. I can probably reach out and ask. That's interesting. Yeah, she did you a great service. Yeah.

I want to know about conversations around the kitchen table with your grandfather's a physicist, your grandmother's, she was a chemist, and then found spirituality? Yeah, she was a Christian, but I always say she wasn't one of these, like, zealous Christians. She was a very spiritual Christian. She was one of these people that I found out only later for conversation with my mom that she had these weird abilities. Like, somebody would come with a cyst and she would, like, put her hand above it and it would, like, go away in a couple of days, things like this.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what my mom told me, so, yeah. But, yeah, basically, I was raised by them because when I was born, my mom was still going to school. And my grandfather started describing to me like black holes and these things since I was very late. little. And I don't know who came, what came first, my predispensation to imagine the edges of the universe all the time or him telling me things about it or the other way around. But it was very, like, that just image, like if we go all the way to the edge of the universe, okay, what's

outside of that? Like what is it? I literally projected myself there almost physically all the time. We're just like, okay, we can crack it. Like, if you step outside. what do I see? It's like, you know, it's like, what is that? What does outside mean? So these ideas were, I couldn't, I could never find any trajectory of thought that was more worth of my attention.

Like, never. And I think that's the thing that followed me throughout my life. With all my experiments and doing things, and I just, I think I was hungry to understand what life has to offer. When I found psychedelics, obviously it was a big revelation because I realized, oh okay so you can actually change like quite substantially but then this is why i think i tried so many

different things in life to see what what lands and what it actually feels like to experience life through that lens i occupied very different philosophical positions in terms of how much i'm convinced that that's what it is and it's only when you go through these levels of convictions that you truly understand what it's like to hold that position because there's everything changes your lens your mannerisms, the way you talk to people, all of it. It's all, Sterence McKenna used to say, it's all operating systems. And it's completely true. Like, you can, now that I'm older, when you find this stability inside, you can actually

just interplay and you can just change them without identifying with any of them. So it's actually relatively easy for me to understand how people kind of come at the world from this other position. And I think a big proportion of that was actually, even though it sounds like two completely different worlds and they have nothing to do with one another, physics and human experience. But to me it was clear that whatever that is had to have some deep connection to how it's possible to experience it. I didn't have the granularity in terms of like, is it the same thing or something like that?

But it was very clear to me that there's like a strong relationship there. Sure. Philosophy and physics are really connected. Yeah. And some physicists would disagree with this, which I think is just like a grigit. egregious that they would. It's just, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the Toad Podcasts,

the Theories of Everything Podcasts, with Kurt Jiamengel, phenomenal. And I think he put the right emphasis on it. But when he says, like, physicists can help but being informed by philosophy all the time. They just don't realize it. Absolutely true. Yeah.

Absolutely true. Interesting that you said that you wanted to solve what was outside of the universe. Talk a little bit about when you were a UFO kid and you went down the Bob Lazar rabbit hole, and your disillusionment with disclosure. As a tiny side note, you know my whole shtick with 42, right,

that it follows me everywhere, the number 42, A-Tragger's Guide to the Galaxy? Yes. You can't see it from your angle probably in the same way. Right in this camera. Are you kidding me? No. Tilt your head to the right.

No, to the right. Like here. Go like this. Do you see the handle of the camera? Yes. Under the handle? Keep going right with your head. Oh, my goodness.

42. It's framed and there's nothing at least. I'll take a picture of it. Oh my God, it's on my list. It's on my list. Look, oh my God, it's double. Look at this. I'll show you exactly how it appears for me.

Look at this. Synchronicities are a real thing. Yeah, it never stops. Last week, I was having synchronicities for like two or three straight days, so many that even my wife is nervous. I'm like, look, the simulation is busy right now. Things are happening. I said, I feel it something's going on. I'm sorry I'm taking it on so many side dungeons.

You know what happened to me when I landed here yesterday? What? I get in the car in the Uber from the airport, and all of a sudden the theme, not the thing, the opening music of the Matrix starts playing. Like, me, that thing, I was like, of course.

What, no, like, as I put my butt down, I was like, what the? And then I'm like, where is it playing? And then I realize I still have my headphones in. It's playing in my phone, but then my phone is just on lock screen. Somehow, I did not do this. It opened YouTube.

It went, you know how they have the free movies sometimes? Yeah. It found the Matrix, which was free that day, yesterday, and it started playing it right when I said in the end. I was like, this is wild. It's wild. When you look for it, it's everywhere. But I wasn't looking for it.

It's just, it found you. The Matrix. Like what? I can't believe 42 is right over my shoulder. Right there. Framed. Perfect. Framed.

Yeah. Oh, goodness. Sorry, I threw you off of the. No, it's super fun. Yeah. disclosure disillusionment. I want your thoughts in that. Disillusionment. Oh, with Bob Lazar and the whole thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Basically, I made a very conscious choice. You know, I was obviously fascinated. I always wanted to be abducted. You wanted to be. Oh, I wanted to be abducted. No, you don't. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I could not wait. I said if they take me one way, I can't wait to go. Like, I wanted to see another world.

Like how weird it is would be worth anything. It's just like I just wanted to see that, right? I mean obviously you know Andrew Gallmore very well he was here just a few days ago yeah he makes a good argument that abductions are just possibly an indigent as DMT experience possible I don't see I personally don't find similarities between the reports of DMT and the and the what they are I don't either yeah I think they don't sound or look at all the same but again who knows right like ultimately who knows and even if they were as a kid I I knew nothing about that.

All I knew is that I want to go to another planet, and that sounded like a legitimate way to do that if that's real, right? So when the Bob Lazar story came out, obviously, just like everybody, it captured my imagination. And by the way, to anybody who's a little younger today, what you might not understand is that back then, there were not, there was no social media or like a billion stories like that. No.

There was one. It was one. So it was just this, like, object of interest for basically everybody. Yeah, I have children. were just still remembering the first time you saw him in shadow talking about stuff. It was insane. And I was a kid. I was like, probably

16 or something like that. Yeah, that was like 83 or something like that. Oh no, 83 is when it happened? So no, no, no, I heard about it in the 90s. So I was already going through kind of like a refurbished version of it probably. No, no, I was born in 83. So then, so anyways, I was, you know,

obviously fascinated. But then as time went by and I got older, part of that philosophical swing was very much from this very wonder-filled kind of attitude towards life to like, yeah, you know, things are what they are,

probably just a physical universe, that kind of stuff, right? But not in a, not in like a magic dissolving way, but just kind of like, yeah, fine. Like the universe is the universe, it's all good. Like it's amazing and that was the attitude, right? And then, I remember in 2012, because of all of these, like what I call

around the cornerism, which is like, it's coming, it's coming. It's been like this basically since the beginning. Yeah, we're still there. Yeah, and as long as it's coming, you can sell books, you can sell movies. Yep. And I'm not even speaking out of a cynical position.

All the power to you, capitalism is great. Go make money. It's all good. But if you're purposefully holding it in that realm, then you're not a good person. Then you're actually doing something that's just for your benefit, right? If the thing is there and you're not creating it,

you making money on top of it, great. If you're keeping the thing alive to make money, that's a different story. And again, I don't even do the whole like finger pointing and blaming. I'm just like, I just disengage. I just don't care about that kind of a way of being, right? As soon as I see that you have a book out, I don't trust you. So I feel you, but I'm like, I'm not in that camp. If somebody writes a really interesting book about something that truly is there and we don't understand, that's all great. And I have no problem with people making money. People work hard. Writing a book is not an easy thing. It's all good. it's the keeping the mystery alive when you know it's no longer a mystery or at least you have

enough information to know it's not a mystery. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying if that's your attitude, right? So there was something about that. There was a dissolution with that kind of way of doing things and I just didn't have any more energy for it. So I decided very consciously before December 21st, 2012 that if the Mayan calendar amounts to exactly nothing right on time, I'm just going to stop with this whole, not just aliens, just everything. I'm just done, I don't care. Like, I just don't care. Like, I don't engage without part of the human thought anymore.

And that's what I did. Of course, nothing happened. And then I just stopped interacting with it. You just turn to switch. Yeah, it's done. It was just enough. It was just enough. It's like, how many arguments do you need to have in a relationship before you go, okay,

just, I don't want this anymore. And it wasn't an argument, but it was like, Paul Intents and Purpose is a thing that kind of pulls you by your nose infinitely. And there's just more important things in life, you know. I was interested in what in fact is true. And that is what I'm interested in today. So I stopped interacting with it altogether. And this is why when the things that started happening to me start happening to me with DMT and all that stuff,

that was coming in contact with all intents and purposes, the real thing, at least for me. Like, oh, you can actually interact with these beings and what? whomever they are and they're actually alien. They don't look like humanoids. They straight up look like aliens, feel like aliens. It's such a different universe, which is what you would expect an alien to be, right? So then that took me on a completely different ride into something that I could actually put my, I could put some stock in it because I had direct access to it.

it wasn't a thing in the news or a formulated narrative. It was like, oh, I can just go and see it. And then I can decide for myself, what do I think that is? But that was so different than the kind of... And sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but like this, for me, it's just like a very caricature version of, you know, of what this whole thing is. It's just too close to how humans would imagine it.

You see what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. Disengaging was a great idea. By the way, in 15 years, you haven't missed anything. Nothing's happened. I think people are surprised by this is that the practice came first. So before DMT, you did Vipassana?

No, DMT I did first. You did first? But I did Vipasana and then started doing it. And I think the second or third retreat I came back, and that extra thing happened to me. So it was all of a sudden change the trajectory of the MT for me. Did you do the full 10 days? Yeah, yeah.

You have to do the 10 day the first time. What is that just like? People don't know how this is. Amazing. I could not recommend something more. It's available everywhere. It's free. I mean, it's donation-based,

but who doesn't have a few bucks to spare, right? What is it? It's the closest meditative framework to what the Buddha actually taught. it's very there's not a lot of talk about anything metaphysical it's just the practice itself the shortest way of describing it is essentially you're practicing how to utilize your attention in order to purify your mind and when mind is expressed here the the what is meant is the totality of everything that is possible to experience we're not separating mind is not meant cerebral

it's just mind just experience right so then basically you you sit there you learn how to hold attention for the first three days by using a meditative practice called anapana which is just paying attention to your breath which is very difficult to do yep and when you manage to do that for three days well enough you then utilize the point of attention you've harnessed to then scan your body in a particular way and nobody really knows why that works but we know from actual research that it does like we actually see that people's brains actually change yes and i can tell you that without a doubt this is probably the one single best thing i've ever done in of like helping myself.

It really is a form of superpower when you get to a certain level of being able to do it. And I'm not even on a high level. Like you don't have to be some kind of a master. It's just the ability to disengage a little bit from whatever turmoil is happening. Oh, the camera's moving. I was like whatever, whatever is happening in real time.

And sometimes it's still hard to do, obviously. But it is an incredible practice that it would recommend anybody try because that's where you really put your finger on what it's like to be you moment to moment. And when you do this every single day for 10 days, the whole day, you find out quite a bit about not just your psychology, but you find out about what's possible in terms of experience.

You feel like you've been given a completely new operating system. You know what's funny, when you get your phone back, because you give your phone away, this is just a very interesting data point for me. Not a little bit, not a little bit, a lot. I don't want to put you on the spot. It's like, have you done mushrooms or you can't answer it? Okay. I'm experienced.

Okay, okay. I'm just making sure that, yeah, yeah. So you know how screens look kind of extra digital or whatever? Yes. That's what the phone looks like when you get it back. It does? Yes. It's really interesting.

It is. What stuff? What? Like it literally looks digitized like this. Like you see it on acid or on mushrooms. I think what it is, the first one that I did, I realized it's a, I spoke about this before. Basically, I realized it's actually a bandwidth problem. So basically the, according to Vpasana, what's actually happening is that,

that every single what we call mental event is not separate from a physical event. In order for it to be alive, something in your body has to register it, even what you call your thoughts. This is why when you get stressed, you need the massage, right? Because your shoulders tense up.

So that's one example of that. Well, the bigger the impact of whatever that was, the mental event, the stronger the instantiation in the body. And traumas are deeply, deeply rooted somewhere in the body. And they're probably the rise of like a lot of pain, sometimes even cancer probably. And what essentially the idea is, is that what we do in the Western world,

we create the severing. Like when the mental event is present, we feel terrible. If we take our minds away from it, we're like, oh, solved. We don't have to think about it. I can go watch a movie. I can drown myself in whatever and work.

But the reality of it is that whatever that was, it's now in your body somewhere, and you're just ignoring it, basically. So what I realize, and basically what you're doing in Vaphasana is, you just allow yourself to sit in neutrality and you allow these things to percolate up and then first the little fizz comes out

like the itches, the scratches, things like this, they're called Sankaras. And then after about two or three days, they're just stop, stop. There's no more itches. There's no more nothing. And then the bigger ones come in. Like big pains that you just,

I guess, didn't even realize we're there. So one of these pains happened to me in one of the days that they taught Bapasana on the fourth day, I think, and this crazy pain in my knee came, it was as bad as somebody carving a knife into my knee. But I was already in a state of kind of neutrality where your brain is no longer defining it as pain. At that point, it's just a very strong sensation. It's just like a very, and you can just kind of sit with it. You just observe it, you don't touch it.

Which is the practice, by the way. But then after you do that, it's almost like a child that just wanted to show you a drawing. So when it showed you the drawing, and again, we don't quite know why that works from a scientific perspective, but it works. After it showed you the drawing and you looked, after the child noticed you did look. Okay, you looked at me, I got my attention, it just goes away.

It's done. It's no longer there. And then, after I came out from that, the reason that I noticed that it's a bandwidth problem is because of that one session. Because when I stepped outside, it's like I was on 400 mics of acid. Everything was sharper.

Everything was shining and glistening and blissful and filled with meaning. and I was like, oh my God, it was just serenity and peace. I know this feeling. And I go, this is why people devote their lives to this. Yes. And then I realize, oh, think about it from a computational perspective. Something in me, even though I wasn't consciously aware, had to keep this alive.

So when it was gone, and because it was big, that much bandwidth is now free to look at colors and meaning and everything. So it's like, wow. So that's when I realized, oh, this is like a science. This is like, it's not like a feel good kind of, no, no, no. I bet the same parts of the brain are lighting up when meditation is psychedelics. I bet it's the same parts of the brain that light up. The reduction of the DMN is similar. So Richard Davidson did a lot of studies on this.

And then he discovered, he added psilocybin later, actually, way, way later in his career. But he found that, yeah, the default mode network goes almost dormant. But mushrooms also do extra things. So there's like other things. Like the pyrotechnics is not something. do you necessarily have to experience with meditation. But the peace and everything, yeah, the deeper meaning. Well, let's take a quick break and when we come back,

we'll go to the infamous night in Boulder. Let's do it. Go ahead. Go ahead. Let's talk about DMT. Let's do it. Here's a disclaimer. We're not promoting condoning or endorsing the use of any psychedelics.

They're dangerous. Be careful for speaking from personal experience, both of us. I've done all of these as well. So, it's fun. to watch you on podcast where someone's like, describe the DMT experience. You're like, I can't. Because you can't.

You can't. You really do go somewhere else. So you kind of became famous for this laser experiment. And we know the story. But I want to know what made you just, why did you shine a laser at the wall? I would never think of that.

I think most people wouldn't, and I don't even know if I wouldn't necessarily manage to grok that unless all the right things would happen and I would be paying attention. It was a years-long process that I was aiming at. I was basically asking the question, can we prove that the DMT space is real? That was it. And then everything else is just like the busy work of how it happened.

So this was like an experiment? Yeah, I tried all kinds of things. So basically I had an experience on DMT after already being very versed in it for years. and then something happened and I had this now famous story with the frog guy who apparently became like a thing that people really want to know more about

and I know almost nothing about but basically I had a being appear in my room as real as a person looking like a frog and he showed me how to play certain chords in a guitar that I did not know how to do now aside from the fact that this is a pretty awesome experience what was key there

is that he was showing me chords I do not know how to play So it was essentially saying, I'm real. You don't know how to do this. I'm giving you information. Then I knew, at least for me, obviously I couldn't prove it to anyone, but it was clear to me that nothing will ever be the same again. Because at least I knew that one person now knows for a fact that they are real.

And then the second I hold something of that kind, I'm never letting go. This is it. Now we're holding it. And for a year, I tried to just go back in there, and I basically lived on DMT for like a year plus. us. Oof. Yeah.

I mean, I loved it. I mean, for me, it was, you know, I was just mesmerized by everything. Sure. And I, again, super not recommended. Definitely don't recommend this. But I basically did everything on it. I'm going to the gym, to the store, like doing everything. And I try to ask, like, okay, great.

Like, you told me that you're real, or at least somebody there told me that. So now how do we show me something? How do we build a spaceship? Like something, something that we can take home. and obviously they never answered questions of that kind. This is always the big question is if it's so real for thousands of years, how come we don't have anything? Tangible, yeah.

Right. Yeah. And it's not clear to me still if they can't or they won't. I don't really know. But clearly if you showed me something, clearly they can. It's just a matter of kind of like maybe degree or something. I've definitely seen like them arguing about this one time. So there's definitely not like a consensus or anything like this.

Them meaning like the entities. Yeah, the different kinds of entities. We're like arguing with each other whether we should know any of this or never, things like this. But then in the end of the day, when you go back to normal state, your brain constantly says, okay, it can always just be like a really neat trick of the mind, which is still awesome, by the way. But maybe it's just like a really, you know, if the brain is capable of schizophrenia,

and again, I don't know what it's like, but like, you know, what if this is like a very kind of like controlled induced schizophrenia that happens only when there's like there's definitely a lot of these possibilities in my head right it's like kind of like the brain builds coherent enough of a story

powered by this extra kind of experience all still makes sense but the realism in real time the essence of what it was like it doesn't feel like a derangement It feels like reality is happening. Yes.

So then I couldn't let it go. And then eventually I said, okay, cool. Well, you know, if you guys aren't going to show me, I'm going to try and figure it out. So I used kind of the closest thing to a scientific thinking that I could, given the fact that I really have nothing to probe. And I thought, what do we know for sure? And there was a few things that we knew for sure. We know that light had to be involved because you can see it. So photons are carrying some information from somewhere.

which means that light is moving between from where they are to where I am because I can see it with my eyes. So that must be the case, right? Hold on. I don't want the theory. I've already heard this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to know what you felt. Oh, great question.

Thank you. Well, we all know this, we all know that story. I want to know what you felt. You saw the symbols, the first 10 seconds. No, no, no, not the symbols. So like I'm talking about like before, right? So like, but this is a, I appreciate this. This is very useful and helpful for me as well.

what I felt was that there's this super importance to us understanding all of this and also trying to understand what is kind of what are the rules like are they playing by rules do they have a government like that that was kind of like my like okay what are we stepping in somebody's toes right who knows man like you know like was this like a renegade person who but now if they're watching and now they're I don't know like he's an outlaw or something you know all these scenarios in your head is like, okay, well then after I, years go by and I kind of figured this thing out with the help of my beautiful wife and we come up with this idea that the laser was supposed to do something. And then it worked. The first moment wasn't, I was just

kind of, I mean, obviously I was kind of shocked that it worked, honestly, that anything worked. I didn't know what to expect. But the big shock came when my friend Tim, He was the first one that I actually showed us to. He saw it. And the funny thing is that the way that he saw it is that because he was in state, he forgot, I told him about it. You know?

Yes, I understand. You're like immediate memory. He kind of goes away. So he just woke up from being out there, but he was standing. And he just reported to me without remembering that I told him anything. He's like, bro, there's language in there.

Were you with him in? Yeah, I was standing next to him. Yeah. And it was like, there's language in there. And I go like, Yeah, I told you. He's like, oh, right. And he goes like, dude, what the fuck?

And, you know, and then we, and then it became clear to me that I actually found something very, very important. Is it scary or beautiful or both? It's beautiful. Beautiful. I mean, scary, I think, depends on your framing, right? There's definitely people who experience the size of it, and that scares them. There's something overwhelming about the scale of everything, including what you're seeing in there. So thousands of people have done this.

and they see the symbols, they see the code, but some people don't. Those are the people that are interesting to me. What do they have in common? Is that a signal? I wish I knew. They have nothing in common. Not age groups, not IQ.

We thought of everything. There's literally not... And I think, and I'm with you, that this is actually super interesting. And this is something that we have to admit. I now have a nonprofit code of reality and started with my partner, David Carter. And our goal is to find out what in fact is true.

And we have to be honest about the fact that, just like you're saying, there's about 30% of people that are really having a hard time and some of them can't see it at all. And they go in wanting to see it. Yes. But to me, something tells me that that's, just like you said, that's information. That's a data point. And I think when we're going to figure it out,

it will tell us something very fundamental. I think that there's something about the differences in how people cast their attention or the way that their brain is constructed that causes. as this. And I think that's a triangulation point. That can be an interesting this versus this. So it's an interesting binary to explore. I do think we will solve this, but we haven't yet. And it does pose a real problem to at least the proposition itself, right? Because if it's out there, then it's out there. Why would some people not see it? But it is a little different in the sense that, yeah, obviously there's something about how our minds are that has to do with us being able to see it.

So it gives it a little bit more a cushion there. Yeah, we don't know. Literally, I thought of everything from eyesight to age, to IQ, to predispensations to life, like people that are much more kind of like heart driven, to people that are much more cerebral, all kinds. So you're tracking all that. Oh, yeah, yeah. We're trying to figure out all the time. Didn't I read that you were doing some AI tooling and putting all this information to AI to

try track the patterns. Yeah, now we have, we developed some tools with the help of Chris Perez and Sterling Cooley, and we develop a software into Apple Vision Pro that allows you to label these. So we actually took an very high-resolution image of the band of light. You see it inside of Apple Vision Pro. And what is surprising is that you all of a sudden have an image of the code, if you're on DMT, that is frozen. It's no longer moving.

It's frozen. It's a snapshot. It's a snapshot of the code. In Apple Vision. Yep. But you don't see it unless you're on DMT. You're on DMT. Oh, my God.

It's wild. and now you can label it. So basically we have a little thing that runs and allows you to mark what you're seeing. So there's location, a world state, a brain state. So it registers your brain is being scanned. So it takes a snapshot of your brain in that moment and where you clicked. And then it gives you a radial menu that allows you to pick out of six symbols. So you can now label this is what I saw or this is what I saw.

This is what I saw. And over time, it will build a Rosetta Stone of what you're reporting and where. and then you can compare with other people. Well, the snapshot is crazy because that sort of, I mean, obviously you're familiar with Andrew Gallimore and you know that he's a skeptic and the specular theory and all that. He still thinks the work is important. If you're capturing it in Vision Pro,

I think the speckle theory goes away. Not necessarily. I'll tell you why. Because the information seems to be still holographic in nature. It has this kind of like a three-dimensional thing, which should not happen in a camera or, can't because the camera only registers amplitude. It will collapse anything with phase, right? So that tells you that there is some projection going on to either some degree or to an infinite

degree. Then the question becomes, is it like a barcode? Like, is it kind of like that particular arrangement? So the only way to really answer that is to figure out if people are seeing the exact same thing in the exact same place. Because if they do, then clearly there's information in the image. However it is that it happens. But now you can start investigating that. But we need to answer that question first, so I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. There is an interesting theory. I don't know if you heard me. I just released an episode with him with Anthony Ness. He wrote, is an independent researcher, and he wrote a little piece that I thought was brilliantly written. The idea there is that he thinks that the reason

people seeing at least very similar things is because essentially what is happening with the laser experiment is that we're gaining a glance back into our own brains. Literally, we're seeing the network called V. responsible for moving information from your eyes to your brain, and we're looking at the semi-crystalline structure of it and nothing else. And that's why it's so similar because across individuals, it's similar. Now, me and him agreed that if we discern that people report the same symbols in the same place in the image, that theory goes away because you can't have, it will never be that specific.

Right. Right. So, but there's a lot of work to be done. Also, I mentioned this before, but what I really love is this idea, that we have now because it's going to require a little bit more of a budget but we'll get there basically if what anthony is saying is correct and we're basically looking at the canvas so to speak then can we bring content back in a targeted way can we use uh intercranial magnetic stimulation to stimulate particular parts of the brain to try and induce content back into the image and see if it matches what we expect to see that would also be a fun one that's a great experiment yeah I'm glad that you said

it could still be speckle in the Vision Pro. Sorry, I'm cutting off. So, like, it's not that it can't be speckle or still can be speckle. That to me is a side question. Remember, when they, all the hints they left and all that stuff and what made me arrive at the laser,

speckle was the prerequisite. That's the thing they paint on. So they need a random pattern to paint on. Right. So it's the same as saying, well, because Andrew was saying, for long as well if you eliminate the speckle will go away yeah but that's the same as saying why don't you just use ambient light there's a reason why they say to a laser because laser can produce

speckle that was the prerequisite to be able to see it right yeah laser yeah it wasn't they didn't say put a light they said no no it needs to be a laser because you need light scattering to see it which is which was the original idea now that's just not that's just the wrong question to ask because it doesn't parse whether they're still communicating or not communicating. If speckle is the canvas on which they're painting, it doesn't nullify the idea that they're painting on it. What we're asking is, what can we do with this? They will tell us that it's actual information, however it is that is being projected.

How do we build that experiment to prove or disperbating? The Applevision Pro experiment would definitely make headway. Because if there's not just correlation, but actual replication of where people reporting the characters, you're no longer at liberty to say it's some stochastic pattern. Literally there's a signal that is across individuals, everybody's seeing the same thing. It's mind-blowing. Again, we don't know that that's true yet. Yeah, yeah, but...

No, I like that you're skeptical and you're not trying to sell this. No, we're interested in what is true. To me, like I said, the neural hypothesis flipped because my interaction with them, with whomever they are. It's so clear to me that they're real because I've interacted with them so many times, just like I'm talking to you now, that for anybody to convince me that they're not real, would take as much, if not more, than for me to convince the whole scientific community that it is real. So, like, that does not mean that I'm unmovable in my position,

but I can't occupy any other state of knowing than I currently do. So it's like I'm cheating a little bit in the sense that I almost like I know the answer, that they are real, but it's not that that is unmovable. Like, if we can devise an experiment that will show me beyond a shell, of without, yes, the whole time this was like a really elaborate way of your brain of dealing with that information and somehow it can be replicated across individuals. If we can devise that experiment, I'll spend on a dime. There's no, like, I'm interested in what in fact is true. I'm so happy to hear that. I mean, even Andrews who's skeptical about it says it's still very

important work, very interesting work. Tell me about the console room. That was a crazy story. Yeah, so it's not a room. It's literally an object that appears in whatever room I'm in. Now, recently actually, very interestingly, there was almost like a, which I've never seen before. Actually, that's not true. There was one other instance where that happened for like a couple of weeks where all of a sudden the console didn't appear. Then it reappeared again. And recently we were doing tests, one day we were doing it with Tom Matt, who's the guy who developed this ability called Upsite,

and he sees these holographic images just naturally and we did it with him and when he was present, I don't know if it was related to his presence but just when we were doing it together it just didn't appear and we're like, oh that's weird because we were trying to compare the console with

and I'll explain what it is so basically I after I started talking about the laser I smoked some DMT in the kitchen and my wife is like cooking or something and all of a sudden this thing appears in front of me just imagine like the most realistic augmented reality So I still see the room, but then there's this, as real as this bottle, and just a capsule appears in the middle of the room. And it's holographic in nature, so it's kind of like this hovers in space, but it's as opaque as this mic stand.

It's not like the translucent even thing. It's just like straight up like enclosed and it was like, what? And then it opened and a podium came out and arranged itself into menus, a pair of gloves and a carousel that was moving to my left like this. Wow. of like VR glasses. And recently, I saw an interview, Carter actually sent me an interview with him, because I spoke to a few psychonauts that experienced like similar things, like screens, things like this.

But for them it was more like haphazard once in a while. For me, it started appearing 100% of the time. It's the same exact thing. It has the exact same parameters. The screens can be different, but the body, so to speak, the thing that opens up and does the presentation is the same. No matter what room you're in? It doesn't matter, even if I'm outside.

It will coat the street. Like it would literally coat like it would open like on the street code the sidewalk like everything. It's insane. So then recently, I don't remember his name, but when we'll finish out, I'll give you his name. Super interesting interview. There's this guy who for sure, I can tell you without a shadow without he's seeing the console. For sure. Same story.

He did it many, many, many times. I think that what happens is that you need a certain amount of usage of DMT in a short period of time. I think he said he did like 250 in like a very short period of time. Yeah. And all of a sudden And again, he's like super you know, like cogent Not like one of these like super hyperbolic people

It's like and you can see He's blown away by this This is the tail sign somebody Has actually seeing it Because whenever people say Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I see the console I'm like there's no way you're seeing the console Because you wouldn't be talking about it like that

Because it's crazy There's no way you would just kind of say it And just move on And he All the signs that he's seeing it for sure He's describing it correctly The same device Well, very similar.

And the way that it executes itself. It's like, I don't understand. It's like, it's in space. And you can see that it's struggling to deliver the realism of it. That's the thing that's crazy about it. In DMT worlds, you can see insane things, insane things. Well, you know, like multi-dimensional things and giant machines. But it's part of a larger world that you're like, okay, I'm in Lala Land now.

So it makes sense. Yeah. This is just normal thing. And it's just, imagine like all of a sudden a camera. with just like holographic camera, they just appear and hover and look at you, and you're like, what is going on? And it's very futuristic,

and it's beautiful, beautiful. It's so perfectly designed, just like you would imagine, like a super advanced civilization would do, right? What do you see on the menus? What's on the screens? It's very hard to discern. It's almost like some of it

is almost like that code. There's like things that are moving. It's very hard to interact with it because it's like the amount of, the amount of brain, you have to induce to actually interact with it and look at it is enormous. That's why I usually were just kind of looking at it because it was exhausting. Yes.

But the thing that is the more realistic than the menus is the body of the thing. I created a little illustration of it on the video I put out about this. And it's pretty close to how real it feels. When we're done, I'll show you like also we put it into VR and just so I understand how real it feels. And it opens up like this like a capsule. There's these parts on the on the on the, on the, floor that are all opening up at the same time. There's like iridescent lights running on the rims.

It's like a real object. It's like you put Applevision Pro and they're just like augmented reality here. So at that point you go like, what are the chances with everything else that all of that is like a hallucination? Come on. Like this is like it's just being, it's like, you know, like an alien civilization is like talking to you and you're going to keep pretending like it's not happening. It can't be. How are you able to stay in the room? I mean, because when I go, I'm gone.

Yeah, no, that requires the ability to be able to kind of function on pretty high doses. Yeah. It takes some practice. Which you can do. Absolutely, yeah. I can drive on it. I wouldn't recommend, but... That reminds me, got to tell the story about when you were driving to Vegas on like, what, 5,400?

Something like that, yeah. Micrograms? Yeah, at least about 5,000. Which is, I guess, like 50 hits. Each one, well, depending how much on each one. Yeah, it was like 54, I think. Were you just popping squares? I was driving to a Canelo fight.

Oh, my God. I was dating back then, this Colombian girl, man, the things I put her through, bless her heart. But she was a reporter. She did a lot of things, but she also reporting on sport events and things like this. And that's a gig she was doing back then. So she had ringside tickets, and she was already there. Obviously, I would never put her through that. But then she was already there.

And then I, yeah, it wasn't just as to. I did everything, you can imagine. Driving? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how you could do it. I don't know either. But the thing is, I wanted to see what the line was. And it was definitely there.

The part that really is funny to me, because recently, I did tell the story recently a few times. It reemerged. And the thing that was, it is funny to me every time I think about this, because when I stopped, there was a moment after 30 plus of them that I wasn't actually sure what was happening. Like that didn't happen. Well, yeah.

Well, I mean, I wasn't sure because I always know somehow what's going on, and that's the thing I was testing. Is it really infinite for me? Like, can I get to a place where I really don't understand what's happening? And it kind of got there, but then very quickly I realized that I actually don't know where I am. I actually don't know where I stopped. I was like, I'm stopped. I know the car is not moving, but I don't know where I'm parked.

What does it look like? Well, no. What's the road where we pass from LA to Vegas? What's the main? Is it 90? Something, right? So I'm on it. So it's not very wide.

I mean, what do you see with your eyes? Oh, no, no. When I'm tripping, I don't see the road. No, no. So it depends on your attention. So if your attention is really dialed in, you will see whatever is you're trying to see. And there's going to be interference pattern, but you can look through it. Like, you can just, you know, you can see.

That's what I'm trying to learn is this level of control is very unusual. But it's not necessarily a good thing. Like, you actually letting go. Later after that, I realized letting go is actually the secret. You don't need a lot. Like, you need a tiny bit if you let go and you go, right? If your point is to prove to yourself something, which is kind of what I was doing, then yeah. But, like, I wouldn't recommend this to anyone.

No. It just creates a lot of tension. But when that part is funny to me because when I, when I stopped, again, that road is what? Two lanes? Maybe. That's it. But then I was like, I thought, I thought that I stopped at one of these, like, exits. that also has like a re-entrance,

then I realized, actually, I don't know that. So I was like, I don't know if I'm in the middle of the road right now. I actually am not sure. And I didn't have, you know how your short term memory just suffers tremendously? Yes. So imagine on that amount of acid, I don't know anything beyond the immediate second. So I was like, wait. And then I would try to look out to see where I am, and I couldn't do it.

I literally could not like remember what every time I would turn to look. I was like, why was I looking? What was the reason for me? And then I realized, okay, okay. why do I care that was the way I was oh because okay police stops me I don't know where I am

literally in space and clearly I see something's wrong yep I have a lot of stuff in the car but your pupils are just black forget about that I have a bunch of things in the car and it will definitely get me in a lot of trouble so then I was like okay

all right so I'm just going to keep driving and then just going to keep driving yeah I have to keep moving and then I realize I wasn't even sure if I'm we're in the right direction anymore. But then I knew that the cars passed, I had enough, like, sensibility

to know if cars pass me behind me, it's good, and if it's covered part of me, it's bad. But then I had to think in binaries, right? But there's a wheel, and there's pedals. Then there was just my knuckle. Oh, no. And the, and the lines in the middle of the road. And I know if there's

a bit of a distance between my knuckle to the line of the road, if it's to the left or my right, it doesn't matter, but it can't be too big. Just keep your knuckle. It can be too far. And then I just kept on doing that. And the GPS would just tell me where to go. Oh, this is not recommended.

No, no. And then at that point, in for a penny, in for a pound. I just kept on popping them. And I got, I finished everything I had. But then actually, another funny moment was when I was giving the car to the valet. I wish I remember what hotel was. Maybe it was. When did they usually do fights?

One of the hotels it was. MGM usually? Maybe. Oh, yeah. Maybe it was in gym. The guy came to me. me and I remember practicing you're racist

and he opened the door I'm like you're like okay this is how I gotta look sober I just gave him the thing and I was like I don't and I just gave him my wallet

just like I don't because I know I had castor he understood that he knew don't ask questions just take the thing yeah yeah

but you couldn't even tell what denomination these bills are I will show you a picture of me with my ex in front of the

like in that event I don't think you can tell that I'm even high Like, it's, you know, it's fine. Like, I'm fine. But, like, it's... Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But to me, it felt like I'm just, like... It's the most uncomfortable feeling. Like, yeah, yeah. When you're too high and that voice in your mind is like, all right, you're too high right now. Well, this is the thing. I just kind of melt into it. Like, I don't know why I have this ability. I don't claim special...

Like, I didn't have to work for it. That's just how I am. I just accept it. I just let go. I just like, whatever happens, I don't know. Like, one time I thought I'm... It was a different time, and it was way less. But then that night, I truly lost my mind.

Like, I actually lost my mind, and I knew that too. Like, I knew that I'm simply no longer tracking what's going on at all. I couldn't even... You remember Frogger, the game? Yeah. That's what I was playing with information. So basically, I would want to tell you a sentence, but in order for me to get it to the other side of the street,

I have to go through all these like enormous amounts of information moving in front of me and I'm like locked in and I can't even, I have to wait until this is one opening and I will tell you one word and I would say one word every seven minutes. I'd be like Vegas and after a few minutes, good because I remember like now I can say it to you but there was all part of the same sentence. Where were you when you at a party and then a friend of mine was like driving me around and at a certain point I was convinced, convinced that we, by mistake, killed someone. What? That's what I thought that happened.

Like, I thought, and then somehow we talked our way out of it. Like, obviously, none of this ever happened. But that's how much I lost it. Like, I thought, and then I'm sitting there, like, just looking at him. And there was something about that moment. I remember he was driving to L.A. to the city. And all of a sudden, because of how high I was, the whole city opened up. to the right and it looked like New York because the building just stretched

of the horizon and he had these like harnesses that he had is just these beautiful kind of like harnesses that he got in Burning Man just keep things in and I and he was trying to calm me down because he saw I just I'm off the deep end right we didn't kill anybody no no no he like he it wasn't just that I was just like completely out of it and then he was trying to calm me down so he played some classical music so at that point I looked at him and I looked at New York, is what I thought New York was, and I see his harnesses, and I thought it was gunholster. Oh, no.

And I look at him, and I thought we were Italian mobsters. And I go, this is so gangster. Oh, no. And he looked at me, and he's like, okay. And he told me later, it was like, at that point, when you said that, I was like, yo and yom, buddy. Like, I can't help. I hope you'll come back.

And I remember this so clearly that I, there's no way that I could communicate any of this, but I didn't I thought this is how I'm going to stay now I was convinced this is how I am now I'm crazy I don't know what that looks like Did you were you regretting it like No no no no in that moment I just accepted it Just like I'm a gangster and no no no I'm crazy now I'm crazy oh you yeah yeah I was like okay that I'm crazy this is what lunacy is like actual

Not funny one but like actual lunacy Yes and I'm a lunatic now like I'm actually like deranged and like incapable of formulating, like, connecting between what is actually happening? You remember the relief during the come down? Like, oh, my God, I'm okay, I'm okay. I think there was some of it. That part is actually hard for me to remember. I think it just passed out at a certain point.

But I do remember that moment, because I was looking at this, you know, when you attach either a strong emotion or a visual, it's easier to remember. So that visual always stay with me, which is like, because I saw, I saw him go like this when I said the gangster thing. So I realized I didn't guess correctly. because he went like this. He went like, like, when he did that,

I was like, oh, I'm cuckoo. I'm cuckoo. So then I was like, oh, okay. So then, okay. And then I was like, and I could totally see how this is how people lose it because they freak out right there.

I didn't freak out. I was just like, yeah, okay, that's where I live now. And that's what it is. And I don't know why. I just accept what it is and that's it. Was this after your Vipasana journey? No, no, no, no.

It wasn't. That was way before. That was before I was surprised. Why? Because you, because most people would panic and you just, and you just accepted it. No, I always had this. I always had where I just kind of, if it's too crazy, I just accept it. And I stopped trying to, like, I stopped trying to flail around.

I just like, okay. Well, it's so smart because that's the best way to have a bad trip is to fight. Yeah, to fight. Yeah, yeah. So I don't claim, like, special ability that I had to, like, work on. It's just maybe it's genetic. I don't know why that is. And there's something about chaos.

Not there. There was, it was, there was a moment of kind of, I guess, what would you call this emotion? Maybe sorrow. It was like a, because I lost everybody. Basically, I accepted that maybe I will never know truly like anybody again because I don't understand what is actually happening and there's no way I can communicate. So there was this kind of grief. But in other places where it is still very manageable and all that stuff,

I somehow I really enjoy the chaos. And the best way for me to describe it is that when things are super chaotic, you actually become invisible. There's solace in that. It's almost like when there's a storm, nobody's looking at you. True. So it's just, you know, you're hidden within the chaos. Right.

And there's something very comforting about that for me. I don't know why that is. Now, since then, obviously, at this point, I'm a very different person, you know, I'm a responsible father. You know, there's a, but I'm so happy that I had these experiences

because I know how deep the rabbit hole goes. I know what can go wrong. And also, I do know that it, this is not the norm. Like, not everybody kind of stays

level-headed that way. And this is why I'm very, very careful with recommending any of this to anyone or anything like this, because I feel like there's a lot of things that can happen that are not as,

you know, what the meme media would like to portray it to be. There can be a lot of things that can go wrong with these things. Absolutely true. What was the normal day like when you were OCD back when you were a kid before you could fix that? Yeah, that was wild. Yeah, I had this insane OCD, which is like, you know, opening a door 2,000 times and not being able to leave. It's the most excruciating, I think.

Was that one of your ticks, the door? I wouldn't even call it a tick. I guess you can call it a repetitive tick. The thing is a tick is something that just kind of happens. right in the body usually but this is like a task that you have to perform otherwise nothing is right and it's not even like you know people sometimes describe it like you know check the stove or my whole family will die well yeah there's sometimes these intrusive thoughts but mostly is just the feeling of wrongness is dialed up to a 12 it's like it's not even like a there needs not be a

reason it's not even for any reason it's just that if you don't do this right now it's so wrong Everything is just wrong. You have to do it. You can't proceed. You can't proceed. You have to complete this now. Yes. It's such a crazy.

I know that people live this with this into their adult life. Dude, I can't even imagine. That's so, the fact that I feel so blessed that somehow it left me and I think it's due to mushrooms. But yeah, it's like you go and all of someone in their 50s that still does this. Yeah, you come to the door. You're about to. I remember there's. I came back from school.

There was no one home. And you can usually only do this when no one is home because then you will be caught and then there's shame in doing that, right? So then I'm like, just looked at the door and you always felt like it was coming on. It's like, oh, this is that feeling? It's like right here and here.

And you're like, and then you, okay, I'll just do a small one. And then you do the small one. And the small one breaks apart into smaller ones. It's like, oh, even the way I entered the key into the door, it had to actually go like a little to the left or to the right and then back out and then and then after you're done with that it's like okay now the handle no we have to go back again now the key again

oh god and and you stand there and sometimes you just you like i don't remember if i actually like broke into tears but you want to just like cry because you're like please let me go like i just want to do it's awful it's if there was one thing i'm sure they're most horrible conditions it probably involve, you know, physical pain also, cluster headaches, things like this. But that's got to be up there. Yeah. In terms of psychological torture. It's torture.

It's, if I can wave a magic wand and one of the things I get to choose is to eliminate would be this. I can say I made the world like orders of magnitude better. It's so awful. Well, didn't you eliminate it for yourself with, what's your trip? Yes, but I can't point to like a particular thing. Like I just noticed it in my 20s that it was gone. It was just gone.

And I was like, oh. And then I started retracing my steps. And I was like, oh, it must have been the mushrooms. Because it, because I remember. No, I didn't even notice it was gone. Wow. Yeah, I didn't even notice it was gone. Because you don't think about it when it doesn't happen.

That's right. And then I think it was like 20, I don't remember, maybe 25, 26. And I was like, wait a second. I forget what made me real. But something did. Maybe even, I think I smoked weed or something. And all of a sudden I was like, wait. I remember I had, and I didn't have it in like over a decade.

And then I realized it must be the mushrooms. Because I remember every time you do mushrooms, there's this smootening of your psyche that just kind of happens at the end of it. Absolutely right. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah. That's why I do it every six months or so. That's amazing.

You know, go to Sedona and chill out. Yeah, so just so you know, if you actually suffer from this, there's a real possibility that you can actually fully remedy this with mushrooms. And I think, I think there's some data to actually support this. I think you're right. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and it's really nice that psychedelic therapy is becoming a real thing and legalized all over the country. And hopefully now on the federal level and it will spill and do other things, not just ibogaine, but yeah. I hope so.

Kedamine therapy is helping a lot of people. Yeah. Well, I mean, the data is there. The data is there. The Ibrahimine thing opened, right? It's there. Now, federal budget is a whole other ballpark, right? Now, if the data is there, which it is, it will open the door to many, many others.

There's a university in Brazil right now that is doing an official study on smoked version of DMT and chronicle depression. And they show tremendous results. Reinvigoration of the spirit and all that stuff. Like, literally, people just come out of it, basically. I'm not surprised. Yeah. what it is about 42 why does that show up why is that everywhere is that really like a douglas adams thing yeah i think so look there's i mean again the simple answer is who knows right

but my suspicion is that usually folklore yeah contains nuggets of truth and it kind of it's almost like it winks at you right so uh i don't know how much you know about douglas adams but he was a very secular person. So if you would ask him, he would tell you to take a hike. He'd be like, it's a way to illustrate a point. Questions are more important than answers, is the point. But he, because he was so creative, which clearly he was, he might have been more tapped in than he realized. Maybe 42 actually means something. I think you're right. He was only 25, 26 when he wrote Hitchhikers. Yeah. And he's also, from what I'm observing in the DMT world, and all of that, is that he was basically right about what's going on.

He was just wrong about the scale. Right. So the computer that calculates the ultimate question isn't Earth. It's the multiverse. But it is what is happening. That's basically what's going on. That's the teleology of the multiverse, basically, yeah. That's true.

He died too young. We miss so much. So many great quotes. My favorite one is, was it, I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make when they pass. me by. I forgot about that one. So you became kind of famous for this DMT experiment.

What's the downsides to that? I don't see one. Really? Yeah. I think I enjoy the ride, and at the same time, I found a really responsible way of communicating it. So, you know, some people might disagree, but I think that overall my message is stability of mind, stability of spirit,

before you enter any investigation of the flavor required. And also really front and center for me is the future of humanity and how we view ourselves. And I do believe that what the code is, the fact that it's allowed to be seen, and many other things, not the only thing, many, many other things, including people going through basically left and right awakenings and things like this, it's part of what is actually in the cards for us. Like people, you know, this is a real thing. Like, people just wake up and they have basically magic powers,

and I've seen this happen. So now I think that there's nothing more exciting than to do a thing you really love, to be able to talk about it with people and get excited about it together and contribute in different ways to how people go through these experiences, not just psychedelic experiences, but like, you know, awakenings and things like this.

and I'm becoming more and more in the presence and awareness of many people who are going through a lot of these big experiences, not just with psychedelics, again. So it's a pretty, I mean, I can't complain. I love my life. I'm, you know, I'm married to the love of my life. I have an incredible baby daughter that, you know, she's literally like a gift from God. I have an incredible family that loves me and I love them. Everybody are healthy.

And I get to do what I really love and enjoy. these like super high concepts and at the same time i don't have to answer to academia which it i mean i you know it's it's very important work but it can be such a drag in terms of you know like what you can or cannot say and i don't have to i don't have to follow that didn't you could publish an ipi letters yeah but that's that's more like an it's not it's not like a peer review paper it's more like a newsletter in a physics newsletter but still uh but again i'm not nobody in academia me is paying me to do what I do. What I mean is that you actually can lose your job if you

say the wrong thing as a physicist or that's a real thing. It's not like a conspiracy theory. That's a fact. You can lose your position in the faculty and beyond. Like even your possibility of working in the field, which is so crazy. It's just like, you know. But yeah,

I mean, I don't see any downsides in that regard. I do understand a certain weight of the responsibility of being as honest of a reporter as I can and try my absolute best not to remember if I'm confabulating something

in the sense that I'm maybe misplacing a memory or like this is the only like I would say struggle which is like because the mind is very chaotic very often and kind of like if something happened long ago enough it's sometimes hard to kind of know what exactly

it was so then if I'm not sure then I won't report it but that's the only thing I can think of is like you know that is like a struggle well code of reality has a leader, a following, rituals, a set of beliefs, a cosmology, a community, sounds like a faith. Yeah, I would strongly disagree with that statement. So the tail sign of a belief system is that it aims at the main focus is believing the thing,

and usually at the exclusion of anything that can alter what is being believed. you see what I'm saying? I do. So the reason that what I see us doing is science, science proper, even though many would disagree, and that's okay, we call this cognitive physics, which essentially is the physics of cognition itself. It's investigation of reality proper in that we take into account new findings

and what we see and modify our views accordingly, but we are asking the question from a more of an idealistic position. Like if consciousness, in fact, is the fundamental thing, what are the rules by which it executes itself and operates from the perspective of at least one agent-like consciousness within it? So things like Donald, people like Donald Hoffman, the kind of work that he does, I would also call cognitive physics, even though he probably won't call it that,

because why would you make up a term? But to us it's important because I think it's different than neuroscience, let's say, that asks the question from the brain perspective. So like, what is the brain doing that causes X? So no, I would, and it's not, and I don't even mean it in a defensive manner. I mean it just like technically, I would disagree with that. And I know that this criticism sometimes is hurled at what we do. I invite anyone to look at the ways in which we approach this.

It is true that I allow myself a very free-flowing thought kind of rhetoric on podcasts and things like this. But when it comes to, you know, being honest about what we know scientifically, I'll be the first one to admit. There's a hard line between what I'm allowing myself to say on a podcast in terms of maybe or even tell you that, hey, I'm convinced of X because of Y. That's fine. That's me, Danny Goller, in my experience. I'm not expecting people to follow me there.

I don't encourage anyone to just follow me there. I'm saying if it makes sense to you, great. But I'll be the first one and we'll say it again and again. If new data comes in that flies in the face of what I'm saying, it will automatically win. not what I think or convinced of. Truth wins. Truth always wins. What are you're doing retreats now?

Yes. What are those like? Those are amazing. We weren't sure after the first one we did, but after the first one it became clear that we're doing something super awesome because people were just transformed. And a lot of people come for the laser,

but very often it becomes about something completely different, which is just because I have so much experience now of seeing how different people go through different kinds of transformations, And I rely on the fact that I brought two of the top facilitators in the world that are doing, you know, both of these medicines, both the NN and 5MEO. We're essentially allowing people to explore the deepest, you know, the deepest spaces of who they really are. And the laser is available. And we folded into some kind of a part of the experience with the ontological shock, how you handle it and all that stuff. but really what it's about it's about transformation which again you know we're obviously not the only

retreat in the world that does that but the way that i would say that we do i think stand out to some degree is that i call it uh spiritual graduation not in in the vain sense of like you know we're making people buddhas or anything like this nothing of a kind but in the sense that we're asking the question what is it like to be in grad school right when you when you go to school um your professor doesn't want you to stay in school forever. They want you to take the tools and apply them in the real world, right? So very often retreats, focus very much, which, by the way, I'm not berating. I think it's very important.

But it's usually under the banner of like, okay, you bow and listen, and that's all you do. You just listen and listen and listen. We're changing it a little bit. It's like, you're a player in this game. What does that look like? how are all the tools that you are carrying from who you are in the 3D world, how it can actually inform a larger picture of what's to come? And we're using a lot of the tools at our disposal to help people connect to that intuition

and actually, well, channel is the wrong word because I don't necessarily like that word, but they channel not from another dimension, but how do they channel their abilities in a way that is constructive for something more than just themselves by trusting themselves in these very expansive spaces. How do you learn how to maneuver through these waters, bring something back that can actually execute itself through you in a way that is conducive to a better humanity?

Are you coaching them through the session? Yeah, yeah, we have a lot of talks. We do a lot of somatic work. We do breathwork with Jeremy Jackson, who's phenomenal. Yes, the Jeremy Jackson from Baywatch. He's such a, wow. He's such a wow person. It's unbelievable.

And, yeah, I mean, we're really proud of what we've created. We're going to have another one in December, and we're going to do seven next year, and we're going to do more. Like, there's going to be, like, smaller ones, but those are super, you know, comprehensive. It's seven or eight days depending on the season. But, you know, people come out. Seven or eight days, depending on exactly the dates.

And usually eight, but sometimes seven. but the result is the same which is a matter of like a rival time and that kind of stuff and so far we not only pass with flying colors people are just and what's more

and this is the real sign of success for me what we've created created community already of people that constantly keep in touch go visit each other all over the world this is not just like a thing that people went to and literally everybody are like one hub

something opened. Something opens in them. So I have tremendous confidence in what we do there. So if anybody is interested as just C-O-R retreat. C-O-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-Treat. I was excited to see you doing. I wish every leader of every country would just do a mushroom trip.

Yeah. Be no more war. It'd be so chill. Yeah, that would be a really cool experiment. Who created that AI video of Trump and Putin and everybody does? I don't remember that. That's funny. All right, I want to take a quick break.

Sure. When we come back, I think there's something that people are missing about the laser. That it's, I think it might be a doorway to something. I want to talk about that. Sure. And you said something at some point that I found really interesting is that reality is rendered, but that doesn't mean fake. Rendered, not fake.

I want to know what you think the simulation is running on and who's running it. Yeah, so I don't know what the substrate is. It clearly runs on computational rules. I mean, it's pretty clear at this point, even from just observing physics. Melvin Vopson's work is very informative in that regard, but also many others. And who's running it is a bit more plucked out of a comic book, but yeah that's okay yeah but from what I see

it's basically the insectoids they're the ones rendering our physical environment our world we got everyone says that melvin bobson he's this is infidynamics is that what he yes second law of infidynamics IPI is actually his

physics journal right so so what's second law of infidynamics it's essentially he discovered that there's a his claim that it's a new law just like the second law of thermodynamics and basically it has inverse is the wrong word according to Melvin but it feels inverse it does basically but basically just like the second law of thermodynamics states that entropy increases over time and it never decreases in an open system wait we're in a closed system I think in the closed system in second law of infodynamics you discover that when you're talking

about the aggregation of information it follows the exact option trend, which means that it actually decreases over time and then asymptotes towards zero. So basically he observed physical systems through symmetry in nature. He observed the evolution of organisms through looking at the enormous amount of data we have on COVID. Because we had it in a very short period of time, which was very unique. And we had our hands on the data, which is also very unique. And the third one is he looked at just computational systems.

So like hard drives, things like this. And he discovered that in all three cases, the more you evolve a system, the entropy of that informational pattern actually decreases in state, which points to computational optimization. And because that also happens in physics, he said here, both all living things, all computational things, and all physical things are doing the same thing. So it looks like compression. It looks like... Compression, exactly. Error correction. Air correction. So optimization of computation. You would do that if you're running a computational system. Now, the reality of it is that really, and I asked Melvin on this, right, he just put like a different emphasis on it. This is not a new

idea. He gave it a name and he showed this, you know, equivalence between the three things. But Wheeler famously coined it from bit, right? Which is, you know, one of the most famous famous physicist of the last century, basically saying that after observing it and looking at everything, what makes more sense is to assume that under the laws of physics, there must be some computational space rendering it.

Yeah, it was one of his last theories. Yeah, and the interesting thing is, I actually didn't know that, interesting. And the interesting thing is that ultimately, it's not very different than saying there's something behind the laws of physics, which of course we already knew, which is we didn't know what it was, we were just saying

it's computation. and then you have to kind of answer what computation really is, which is a complicated conversation, but it is the abstraction itself, not the kind of substrate it's running on. It's the abstraction that is doing the work, right? So there's something there that is informing physical matter, but for all intents and purposes,

it can inform other things that would be different than physical matter, right? People are never bothered to be rendered by the laws of physics. This shouldn't bother them any more than that, which brings me to the second part of your question, question, which is as long as there's a conscious agent, which is a mystery, what that is, but as long as there's a conscious agent that can experience valence, so a quality of experience that has a certain degree of either comfortable or uncomfortable or even painful degrees, then it becomes what reality is. That's what reality is, is where the experience meets

whatever, in fact, is unfolding. And if what is unfolding is consciousness, that doesn't change anything. You're still in the same conundrum. As long as there's a conscious agent, either it's created or just always existed, that's what reality is. It doesn't matter how you came to be the fact that you're having the experience is what it justifies calling in reality. How do you feel about Donald Hoffman's theory, interface theory? Incredible, incredible. It holds an enormous promise for the future, I believe, and I do have huge faith in what they do and the fact that he just collaborated with Andrew Gallimore and Andrew was very gracious to invite me to this event. It was called Traces of the Other. So they're, you know, Donald Hoffman's,

he has the Trace Institute, and they basically using what's called Trace Logic and Mathematics to basically come out of mathematical formulation of what's in store for consciousness as a whole. And according to them, they can make some predictions even as to what kind of conscious gestaltz can arise given the change in the trace logic and what they call experienced kernel. If I understand correctly, there's kind of sliding off the experience coronal frame, but it's an extremely promising framework, I think, and I'm very

excited to dive into the specifics there, and I do think that maybe the laser can be one potential way of probing into their theory, because the laser, and I spoke to one of the professors that is part of their operation, and we agreed, and he's a neuroscientist, he agreed

that if we have a stable object of observation in altered states, which is what the laser is, It doesn't even matter if you think it's a hallucinatory or not. The fact that it's stable for what it is and it seems to be similar or the same across individuals, it gives you something to actually study. It's a handle. And you can now basically try and trace the mathematical logic through the different states

that people occupy, because people experience the world in very different ways, depending on their mood, depending on whatever, right? And see if we can actually create any departure for anyone with how the code appears. This can be an interesting thing to study. Would this mean that the code is also another icon an interface? It's not... It's not core. Ultimately, any content is, yes. Like, I don't really...

We call it code of reality because we had to call it something and it kind of looks like a code that kind of have it. We have no idea what we're looking at. Not the first clue. Right, when people hear code, they almost think about computer programming, but it's more like symbology. Yes, but it does seem like, I... Like, again, this is where I have to kind of make clear separation. my intuition, not even a hypothesis, my intuition is that it is some kind of a language that reality speaks or it's almost like the pre-buffer of what you experience at the world, right?

So maybe there is something there that is akin to a computer code, but it's just not arranged in the same way that you would have in a computer, where it goes to a compiler and levels and communicate to machine level. It wouldn't be like that. it would be like a code that is instantiated in the environment itself. So just like a world can build itself through speaking to itself through this kind of linguistic representation. And maybe the reason it's discernible to conscious beings within the world is to find it. It's almost like another purpose that serves is for conscious agents within it when they're ripe to understand to start to understand.

And then slowly kind of find their way out basically through it. So the code is not content of the experience. It's not the machine animals. The code is infrastructure. The walls, yeah. It's the walls. So there's nothing below it? No, I'm sure there's like levels above it and below it and however it is that you want to imagine it.

But I do believe that there's more and more layers. Like when you go into 5MEO state, it definitely feels more. It feels more like the architect. Yes, it does. Yeah, yeah. So I think there's levels where it's just wiggles. You know what I mean? It's just like logical arrangements of things and not just kind of maybe the platonic space,

I guess. So you can think of it like that. Can you explain the difference between, you don't have to, for me, but the difference between 5MEO, DMT and NNDMT? Yeah. What the experience is like? Yeah, it's very, very, very different. The short answer is that, well, there's two different kinds.

So NNDMT, which is NN stands for two nitrogens, five MEO stands for five methoxy with an oxygen with DMT, and they're both produced in our bodies to different amounts and in other living systems. when you smoke kitchen every one of them they shouldn't even share a name they're like the different universes like NNDMT is like

transformers from three million years in the future 5MEO is straight up like meeting God it's just divinity it's that vibe and by the way that actually made me understand that there there actually is a distinction to be made between saying you know sometimes people say

well you know you wouldn't even know the difference between a god and a very advanced civilization. I disagree. I think there's a big difference. Really? Yes. There's a difference in their essence. So super advanced civilization can have the essence of divinity, but that quality, or at least that's what that would be my take, is not necessarily coming for the ride. You can have a super advanced civilization. They will not feel divine. It wouldn't be evil. It just wouldn't be divine. divinity is a very particular kind of quality

it's almost like the wholesomeness of reality and I think you have to tap into that if it's going to be animating you propelling you forward it is the pool of energy out of which you draw a particular kind of ideas set of ideas will be arising there and a different set of ideas will be arising

if you're playing the non-divine game so to speak now that it can sound a little confused because descriptively it's very hard to pinpoint exactly what's different here but when you're in the presence of it you know and by doing 5Myo and comparing it with N many times I realize there's a there's a big difference here 5 emma feels divine it's it's like kind of the the thing beyond which there is no nothing like it's so maybe there is but it feels like it's impossible to go beyond that state yeah without being the totality of things, basically.

Yeah, it's like full ego dissolution, you're part of the oneness. It's very strange. Yeah, but also the content even feels. It has this light, this light. NN doesn't always feel like this. It feels more like technical, like very robotic. Yeah, so that's what I mean by that.

It's tangible. And more tangible. And I would even say, I would go as far as to say that even though on NN, you can sometimes have experiences that, you know, there is ego dissolution. Like you don't remember you're a human. You don't remember what humans are. You're just some point of attention.

But when you do 5MEO, you realize that's still not enough. Because when you do 5MEO, if you look back at NN, you'll realize even when you had that state when you were like not remembering what being a human is, there was still a point from which you were looking. You're still observing. Yes. 5MEO, I don't know if it's possible to describe with words. It's not. That central thing doesn't exist anymore There's just field

That's it It's completely diffused There's no mapping of any kind And yet sometimes there's also content By the way for me I recommend people don't mess with 5MEO Without a facilitator Someone's got to be there

Yeah yeah yeah Because it could be scary I found it very scary You really have to let go And it's hard for me to let go Yeah yeah You believe in the divine Yes

Well, it's interesting because the word belief is an interesting one. So I always say, I'm at this point, I'm still, I'm a secular person. Okay. Which just means I believe that everything is knowable, it's just a matter of time and energy and whatever it is that you can live through. But I know there's a God. So I know because I saw it. Like I, you know, for all intents of purposes. Again, nothing is unmovable, but in terms of how certain I am, that there is an actual God, basically 100%.

Did you see Jesus? Yes. But that's not the God. that I saw at the top, which is always very bothering to Christians. So, yeah. Well, let's bother some Christians. So God is not the top of the chain. Not the biblical God, no.

But all intends and purposes for fairness, at the same vision, I saw that as far as we're concerned, it might as well be. So who's above God? There's some kind of, again, it's going to sound super arbitrary. So I'm trying. Yeah, I'll talk about it, but this is probably, I keep saying it, but this probably will be the last podcast I mentioned this. Because I'll say why, just for a moment.

I do find that that reaches outside of what I call the horizon of relevance. Beyond that point, there's more dissonance from this than coherence, and that's not necessarily a good thing. It bothers Christians for the obvious reasons, because that's blasphemy. If you postulate anything beyond Jesus as being our Lord and Savior in the total scheme of things, that's blasphemy. me. End of story. You're not interacting with God. That's the perception. I don't think that's, I think that's good work. I'm saying from Christians, right? That's the perception. So it disturbs them to know in, right? Or at least they think of me as someone who's a, you know, heretic. But I would tell them, no, no, no, no. God is still God. Yeah, yeah. He's just, he's just representing us.

No, no, no, it's part of the, it's very radical in that sense. Like, the one thing that is not touchable is that part, which is like, if you don't accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior and the final arbiter, you're going to hell, period. Like, that's the one. basically the Christian belief. So, but, and on the other hand, I also with the rest of it, what I saw, even to me as someone who, if you would ask me before what I saw beyond it, and I will say, but like, I just want to preface it by saying that it doesn't make sense to me either, because it's way too arbitrary. Again, it's like a caricature. It's like a Marvel comic book. Like, it just doesn't make any sense. It's too simplistic. But, hey, I mean, if it is what it is,

then it is what it is. Like, I don't know what, you know, what else to do with it. But why? what I saw is that there's this enormous hierarchy, and at the top of it, for some strange reason, it's a woman. And no, she is not referred to in any of our folklore. Like, she doesn't exist in our foreclothes. No one has ever interacted with what she actually is conceptually. So when they talk about the divine feminine, they're not talking for her. No, no, that's very terrestrial.

Yes. Yes. That's like here. That's like, phew. Like, that's so, it's outside. So, like, there's the mold, again, reminding everybody, this is arbitrary for me too. aware of how silly this sounds. It doesn't.

Well, to me it does. Because if you would ask me, like, what would I imagine the ultimate picture to be? It would be more along the lines of Buddhism, like neutrality, nirvana, just kind of like, and if I have to put an image to a God, which I wouldn't. But if I would, it would be like some kind of an infinite ball of light that contains all, you know, something like that. But no, it was clearly a female. It's like a woman.

And, and, but the scale. of it was, so basically it's, our universe is within a multiverse. The multiverse is within a tri-system. There's like a three-ball system of something and only one of them is the multiverse and I don't even know what the other two were. And outside of all of that, just that alone, the scales here, right, is where all the gods are. So no, we're not on the trajectory of becoming gods. We're not gods. It's not that kind of a thing. But we can be way more because we are made in the image of something much more, right? And then I saw that basically I'm alone in this basement

and I have VR glasses on. Obviously, all this is like representation. And I have infinite screens in front of me. So basically, you create these infinite realities for yourself. You're alone. There's no one else in your simulation. And obviously, this can be just me. That's just, you know, solipsism, which is like silly.

So clearly there's others, but they are in their own simulation. Right. And they're making their own little world. and everybody in your world are just a representation, just a reflection, basically. But they are informed, but they're real conscious being. So you're getting a pretty dialed in interaction

from what they would really do in real time. And from what I understood, that's designed that way for safety. But the system is learning what you're doing. So it doesn't matter what you do. It's not like you can just go and do whatever you want. I would not recommend this. So the system's designed for safety?

From causing actual suffering to what you would consider the other, until you're ready to enter the ultimate love channel, which is a safe channel. And when you enter that channel, not like sexual infatuation, but like actual true openness, yeah. But just for the audience, there's like a conflation here,

you, the sandboxes of the different conscious individuals actually get closer to one another. It's not a binary. It's not like you're either in it or not. It's a distance from, like how close I am to you truly in the spiritual realm, so to speak. And I think,

everybody who lived long enough can appreciate that it actually feels different to truly be in the presence of someone truly. It feels different. You really feel there. And it's almost like you can feel something. Now you can explain it away all you want with just like, well, you're reading more micro-expression.

However it is it, you have to frame it for yourself. It feels different to be sharing a certain mind space together. And then all of a sudden, everything just flows. A lot of this conversation is this way. There's just this understanding that I feel from you through your questions. There's also a real care. There's this bubble that is created. There's different than just us speaking through the chasm of concepts.

Totally agree. Yeah. And that, what I saw is basically ascension is that when all beings of that species can enter that space, and then they're all together, actually, right? And then I saw some, again, pretty arbitrary things, which is like it's all following the Mendelbrot set shoreline. Andres Gomez asked me, rightfully so, he said, why the metalbots that? Because you know it from like memes?

Like, there's so many different fractals. No, not because I know it from memes. I have enough sophistication in that realm to understand that there's all of these other ones. That's what I was shown. That's what I have to follow. Now, obviously you can say, well, that's because the one thing you know best, so they should. Yeah, but that game is infinite. Like, why is it that particular fractal?

I don't know. I think there's something about it. So I don't know enough. about the actual differences between all the other major ones, but if I understand correctly, the metal rod set is kind of the map of all stable fractals. So, you know, Julia sets and all the other ones. And what's interesting is that because it's based on a very simple equation,

which most self- iterative ones are, but it's a very simple equation that basically gives rise to this infinitely complex, not large, but infinitely complex structure. So the fidelity of its stability is guaranteed within the very simple equation. So even though there's going to be probably some requirement for some error correction as worlds are actually built on top of it, it's going to be a lot easier because the structure itself, the fundamental baseline is guaranteed to be stable by the definition of the logic of the equation.

in it never repeats itself. I don't know how many people know this, but there's not one part of the menelbrot set is the same, not one. You know how the different, again, I'm sure you know, but I want to make it explicit for the audience. The mandelbrot set is this shape

with the, you know, looks kind of like a little beetle, right? Yep. The little beetles that it's made out of, not one of them is the same. Not one to infinity. To infinity. That's crazy.

It's crazy. And that's part of what's called a stranger attraction. one of the, it's the Lorentz attractor, which basically states that nothing ever repeats the same. That's interesting because if you're looking for novelty, that's definitely the one you're going to pull. And if you're evolving into these spaces forever,

you want to make sure that it's always stable, always evolving in ways that you yourself could not predict, because the difference between the general logic of all of it and its totality existing in some infinite space and the actual computation of it, which is the process by which you're actually going through it, are two different things. when you're computing into it,

you want to make sure that no matter where you're going to find yourself, you're safe for the fidelity of the system, and you want to make sure that you always discover new things that you've never seen before. So if you want to run the ultimate computation and see what is in store for the ultimate state of affairs, which is what they're doing, calculating the ultimate question, you will pick something like the Menlobought set.

Yes, you would. That makes a lot of sense. And by the way, I have a little thought that it actually, to me, is very interesting. To me, it sounds rings very true. the closer you get to the edge so if everything in the world falls the mental road set

which by the way we know it does because we have literally like any chaotic system from dripping faucets to you know the way the hearts work but basically everything and even the the process in which populations grow everything right I think Lorenz was studying weather

weather yeah everything so basically even the bifurcation the little Verotasium did a great episode on this so if you that means that everything in the world, including the patterns and the information in our brains will follow it. Well, here's the deal. This would explain to me why the distance between madness and genius are so close. It's because in order to be a true genius, you have to play in an informational

space where it's right on the shoreline where truly, truly, truly, truly novel ideas can come, but because if you're too close to the shoreline, it becomes so chaotic and so unpredictable that one wrong step, you're out. And that's why. We all know very interesting. intelligent people that are weird. I definitely do. The smartest people I know cannot really function. Cantor is a perfect example of this. Created set theory.

Everything has to do with infinities. Went mad, died in an insane asylum. And we know it's correlated. Yes. It happened to him once. He went in. He stopped. He recovered.

Went back. It's actually a very tragic story. And then went back, went back and this time died alone in there. It's a very sad story. But we're very... The fact that some people are like this, we are very lucky to have had them because they created

enormous theoretical frameworks that allow us to do a lot today. I totally agree. Did you interact with Jesus? No. I didn't become a Christian because that was not a... It's not like Jesus came to me,

which maybe is something I need to worry about. I'm not sure, but I saw him from the side. Like I saw him ascending. And essentially what I took from that is essentially there's a new dawn coming. You saw him ascending? So you saw like... Yeah, he's finishing his contract.

So basically, that whole thing, essentially what I saw, which then all of a sudden, I had to... The resurrection? Did you see? So, okay. So for me, I had to make sense of it, right? So I want to frame this part of what I'm saying by saying, I had to make sense of what I saw, because it was like super arbitrary to me. I never grew up with the concept of Jesus. Yes, my grandmother was a Christian, but that was never part of my... I never cared, right? Understood. And neither did I care in a negative direction. I wasn't like reacting to Jesus or something.

So, why would I see that? Like, if anything, I should see the Buddha. That makes the most sense to me, right? But they were very clear. They showed me the image of Jesus exactly how it's depicted in the Bible, which I took to be information. Because they could have said, you know, that thing you believe to be the Messiah, there's such a thing, but it's not what you think.

That's not what I was shown. I was shown Jesus Christ as he's depicted. I took that to be information, and at least to some degree, it opened the door for me to at least explore and at least listen to what Christians actually believe. Like, you know, obviously forthcoming Christians. Yeah. And not immediately branded as like, you know, some way in which people deal with reality, right? So like if there's any reality to it, what Christians actually think, not what people tell me they think. What do they think when I asked them, right? And I started

talking to Christians. And what I discovered is that actually, the story is much deeper than I realized. Really? Yes. And the story, well, maybe you did know, maybe you knew this, but I didn't. For example, that a lot of denominations

believe that the cross was not what was done. The cross was the beginning of what was done. Yes. So you knew it, I didn't. And that actually impacted me emotionally. So like if I allow myself to entertain even the maybe of it, I mean,

that's wild. Yes. The fact that he went. through all of hells for us? I mean, that's a different story, right? And then... No, when you really sit with the story, it's crazy. It's crazy.

And then the fact that basically was done for us in an infinite love because it saw, that God saw that there's no way we're going to not go towards the worst possible outcome for us. So he basically bought our karma. He said, I'll strike a deal. I can handle it. In order to handle it, it wasn't enough for him to basically experience it

as the unified God that he is, is then it doesn't count, right? He had to go into a limited form so he can actually experience the suffering, not just the torment, the psychological, the physical, all of it. That's crazy. It's crazy.

So then, so even the maybe of it is insane. Who did God make the deal with? Right? Well, I saw that that guy is also there. You saw that guy? Yep. Did that guy have a face? Kind of, but it's more kind of like

the caricature folklore, what you would imagine, right? So like, and it became clear to me also that things are not very, very straightforward in that regard. It's almost like he doesn't really need to do much. He just kind of lets things unfold in the way that they would, and he can kind of steer it, but like ironically, again, this is like taking us very far afield, but there's some interesting nuances there that I saw that obviously don't depict them in any positive light, obviously,

but it's almost like, for example, there was like this interesting thing there. he can't lie. Like what? Yeah. He can't lie. Can't lie. I think there's something to that. Yeah, yeah.

He can deceive. Oh. He can't lie. So you know how sometimes, so, for example, you know how somebody gives you a riddle? If you don't give me enough of the actual information to truly for me to figure out, that's just a shitty riddle. That's not fair.

Right. Right. Right. Right. But if you're clever, you don't lie. You deceive. You deceive by, the information is there, but you have to be aware enough to notice it. That's right. That's how he operates. And if you're blind, that's on you. You can't belong in that place if you truly didn't know. But if it was there all along for you to notice and you didn't, you choose to not notice. That's how it works. That's part of the kind of like the ultimate state of affairs. And I found that. to be profound and also pretty true. And to whatever degree, that part, for the obvious reasons, you're like, okay, hold on here. We have to think of some things. And then I realized that basically, the way I explained it to myself is that essentially the ascension is basically Jesus basically handing us back the bill collectively. So he's like, here's your karma back. You're good enough to handle it now, but you do it collectively.

So you're not good enough to do it individually, but collectively you can hold each other in check. And that's where we're supposed to go now. Can we pull it off? I hope so. I'm positive about it because I think that's the only way to actually steer there. That's not, you know, I'll do my best, but like, that's all we can hope for, right? And, yeah, so that, but that, again, funny enough, it didn't make me a,

a Christian. Again, I'm not even saying that to, to, in any direction. Like, I don't know what to make of it. Like, maybe it's my stubbornness. Maybe it's like, maybe I should. Like, I don't know. But I, but it didn't. And to, for the time being, it feels correct. Like, I'm definitely still following the riddle. Like, I'm, I'm doing my best to notice what's there to be noticed. And I'm, I'm not, like, obfuscating information for myself or lying to myself about something just because I don't want to do it. Like, as far as I'm aware of myself, I'm not doing that. But I also saw, which is obviously the part that really bothers Christians, which is

like there's a much bigger picture than that. But again, I also kind of saw that it might never be relevant to us. So it's almost like you might not even need to ever worry about that. I think that's probably true. Yeah. You don't have to worry about that. That's what God's here for. Yeah.

Basically, it's your agent. I got you. I don't worry about that. The riddle was very interesting. because I've had plenty of experiences. One was, I just want to know how everything works, and they told me it's too big for you. It's too big for your brain.

But very often, when I'm in that world, I get information that doesn't quite make sense, and I could feel the entities saying, if you don't get it, I can't do anything for you. It's all there for you to figure out. And over and over again, it feels like the trickster. It's like it's right in front of you, dude.

I just got to figure it out. But I can't. You can only be judged on things, you can discern and comprehend. To say, ha ha, you did this wrong thing. It was like, I never knew it was a law. I never knew it was a rule. Right.

And then they can say, no, no, no, no. We know for a fact you could. You chose not to. That's different. But if you actually couldn't, then there's, you know. Now, why is it like this? Again, it's like super arbitrary, right? It's almost like, because think of it from our perspective,

and I'm just thinking out loud, right? Like, if I'm imagining myself creating a world for any reason and I'm allowing the beings in the world to do it. I think it's, I think it, I think I have a responsibility to create a world that doesn't just, pardon my friend, just fuck him over. You know what I mean? Like, it's actually unethical of me to put them in a condition where, you know, which leads me to believe that if it is in fact the case, any of this,

it must be some ramifications or just like the state of affairs that is just so and there's really not much you can do about that a certain limitation within which everything else operates that just, it's just how it is. But we're all having the same experience.

Basically, yeah. So then it makes sense ethically. Like if you can see from the highest perspective that things that just are that way and you don't know how to make them different, maybe it's the fact that there's like the same amount of yin and yang

in the world, like the same amount of darkness and light. So what is the most ethical thing to do? Try and distribute it evenly. Instead of like half of it experiencing the ultimate suffering and half of it, you know, the ultimate bliss, how do you communicate that, hey, we all should carry as much of it as we can. So nobody has to experience kind of like the ultimate. Like that's the most ethical decision that can be done collectively.

So if you're on top of all of this and you see all of this, then all of a sudden it makes more sense. It's like, hey, it's just how it is. I want everybody to have the best time possible, possible. Let's try and play a game a certain way. So we all kind of stay within the, which again, within the purview of even the medal brought set and this infinite,

because what's outside of the metal brought set? Just infinite. Right. Nothing is predictable. Everything can be anything. I can't really comprehend what's going to be on it. Yeah. So maybe there's only so many different ways to keep coherence,

and that's essentially what the light path is, which is like kind of stay, it's almost like the lack of awareness of God that is really what hell is. It's like you just, because anything can be. Right. And it's almost like the default. So it's not like either or

the default is really where you're going to end up if you don't pay attention. Wow, the default, because he's not really doing anything. He's just kind of letting it unfold. It's basically everything. So that means whatever the program is is programmed to be pretty dark.

It's not even, no, so maybe what's, so the thing that I saw, which was kind of like the ultimate, what should we call it, kind of like that, you know, ultimate cabash, like this is like thing at the top, which is that basically what it's all for

is to formulate the ripe condition for the ultimate choice. So basically you have, in the beginning was the word, and the end is the choice. The ultimate choice. The ultimate choice is when it's literally all said and done, literally, like there's nothing that can happen again that didn't happen before.

And if you think, yeah, but what if, yeah, you're not thinking about the state we're describing. Everything was done. Everything. Now, any other step you're going to take, by definition, will be a replication of something that happened. Yep. Then what do you choose?

And in that moment, basically, what I saw is that there's this final black box that contains the actual answer. The one thing that no one in existence knows is why. Nobody knows why. You saw the box? It's in that box. So basically right now, while it's still happening, the answer doesn't exist or the question or whatever it is.

No one actually knows. That information doesn't exist in existence, right? It's the ultimate umbilical cord, which if you think about it for two seconds, it actually makes perfect sense. Because aside from you just kind of, by fiat declaring that God knows, you think about it for two seconds, any amount of knowledge you can embody, you can always ask, but why that? So it's almost, there's no way for, because you have to be outside of what is,

which, what does that even mean? So basically what I saw is that that, the reason everything is happening is because it's formulating that black box with the answer or the question. And what is that for? Because at the same time, what is being practiced through all the simulation is the attitude of letting go, which is much more kind of like the Eastern attitude. And then at the end of everything... You think we're running multiple simulations over and over? There's two main games.

One, coming up with the actual true answer or question. And the other one is the practice of just letting go of it. But it only matters if you can, in fact, let go of it, not the concept of it. if I ask, Ken, do you think that if the time comes, you will let go of it, you saying, yeah, I think so. It doesn't mean anything because it's not there. But only when the money is on the table. That's why the answer has to be the real one.

It has to be guaranteed to be the holy answer or the question. And then God gets to make the ultimate choice, which is like, does he open that box or not? This is the finite against the final moment. And the thing is, it is the final of final. because the second you open it, you don't know what's in it. You don't know if you really don't want to know that, or you really did. Or can you just let it go? Can you just be forever?

If you're there forever and you can do anything, nothing means anything. Everything's kind of pointless, which is what a lot of people experience sometimes when they go to 5MEO and it's this infinite loneliness because you're just alone and you understand there's nothing outside of you. Yes. That's essentially what the predicament that, you know, the ultimate, God is. And so it broke itself or she broke herself into infinite pieces that don't remember necessarily all the time. And they're playing both of these games. Because the only two games that

make sense is figure out what it is that the one thing you don't know, because it's kind of interesting, but also see if you can actually practice of just letting go of it and just be forever. Just like, because that's what monks do. It's not forever for them. But for longer and longer periods, they practice to be in complete bliss without anything. The reaching is the problem. The reaching is the suffering, according to the Buddha. The nirvana would be basically the unitary field making the choice to just let go of the whole thing.

And then it kind of opens this. One thing that I did see that was kind of, I have to be honest here, I was convinced for a long time that I saw it in the same kind of vision. saw it? I saw all of this. Yeah, this was shown to me.

So now, but I'm, but I'm, that last part that I'm about to say, I actually don't recall, so I have to be honest about this, it might have been, but I actually don't recall if I've added it after because it's very easy to do

because you are in just like a very kind of, you know, very, very altered state. Yep. But what I, what made, either what made sense to me or something that was actually shown to me was if the box is opened,

what happened, why the choice is so dramatic is because if you let go, you can just be with everything that you already know and exists. You can just be in peace and whatever it is. But if you open, it creates a state. So the ultimate object, so the ultimate God would be, if it would be perfect, you know, in a perfect sphere, every single point in the sphere points exactly, exactly of the opposite side of it. Exactly. That's the definition of, but that's the definition

of a perfect object or a shape. If it's the ultimate thing, it must contain all the opposites of itself. So it will not occur. It actually cancels itself out. This is why God can't be perfect. It will be almost perfect. It will be one piece missing.

Just like in that game with the nine numbers, you have to have one missing to move them, right? So the only reason that anything occurs is because there's this one piece that is missing from God being perfect, which is that piece of knowledge, of why. But the second that happens, when that piece goes back and got in that picosecond

or zepto second, whatever it is, that God just knows, imagine what that must be like, you're now locked forever with that knowing. It's just you and that knowing, but also it becomes perfect, and therefore it doesn't just cease to exist, but ceases from ever being exist, This is a very DMT conversation.

Yeah, yeah. It's almost like it cancels everything out. And I don't know if you notice, but it sounds like you're pretty experienced with these. There's always this almost like a zany ramping up towards something. It's almost like a ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-da. And they're all kind of waiting for you to like, and it becomes more and more serious.

And you're like, what's going on? And so what I saw that at the end of this ramping, this crescendo, that's what happens. It's this ultimate, like, just. Do you think that it? This is predetermined. How does free will work its way into that? Yeah, so that's exactly the thing.

That, wow, you asked the exact right question. Whatever free will is, the only place it can be. So it actually doesn't exist in the way that we think of it. The only place where it can be is in that one blind spot. That's where free will lives. Free will, the ultimate fractal of free will is the freedom of the will of existence to come into being versus not to be. So that is where it's at,

and nobody knows what that is. So your question predetermined, the reason it's the ultimate choice is because it's the one time in the existence of existence that an actual free choice will be executed. That's the only time. Is it executed by one unique consciousness

or the whole? I think it's going to be the unitary and I think what might be happening is that maybe this is already kind of becoming like super, you know. No, it's fun. Yeah, but basically what might be happening is that they might be creating AGIs

to go through a similar moments and we're one of them. So basically it's, you train a bunch of AGIs and you put them through alignment problems and all of that and if they pass, you can put them to the next level and the next level and they essentially altogether either conspired to have that moment together or they're a practice of how to have that moment perfectly

because you can't mess that up. There's only one of those, literally ever. So it's the one moment where you have to become so, God has to become so still that it has to align himself with the ultimate umbilical cord and basically execute that one ultimate choice, whatever that is and just kind of surrender to it fully. But it still sounds like that choice comes from the deeper consciousness.

But no one can ever tell because it's actually computationally reducible. The moment has to happen. So you actually, no one knows including God himself or herself, if they will open the box or not. Like they actually don't know until the moment comes. That's a computer science theory that you have to run the program to see what happens. It's describing computational, when I'm saying computationally reducible, it's a computer science term to say it. But the ultimate moment is a lot more dramatic than a computer. computer doing a thing.

It is, but it's interesting that you don't think it's predetermined. It can't be. If it would be predetermined, it would be pointless. It's like, yeah. That's true. Yep. Who's running it then? Is it God running it or God?

No, no, we're talking about a level that is outside of reality itself. It's almost like, it's, this is why you see, horizon of relevance. Like aside from having like a really interesting. philosophical discussion about this. And that's what I took from it, by the way. Even though I'm still enjoying once in a while revisiting the idea itself, because it's so explosive,

I took from it to be basically like them saying, if you really want to know, you can, but what are you going to do with this? Just live your life, basically. That feels very familiar. Yeah. We'll tell you, but you don't really need to know any of this.

What's for? And basically, I guess I was maybe stubborn enough in which they're like, well, let me show you then. And then you tell me if you think you can do something with it, which I'm still kind of like in this crazy deliberation with the totality of things. Can't you open it and also like open at the same time? I don't think so. Isn't there some quantum position? They're like, nope. No.

Yep. No way around that. Where do the insectoids fit into this? They're more like a management company. which I'm always at the... Are they in our level? No, no, no. They're simulating the universe,

so they're way above our level. Simulating the universe and probably a few others. Okay. So this is the scales. When we're talking about the beings that I saw like gods, they're way more than that. That's like levels and levels of... The insectors are above gods?

No, no, no, no. Well, this is why I'm being careful because to some degree, it's still not fully clear to me if all of this is a formulation within their simulation, or are they just a management company within a smaller system delivering the,

I guess the commands that God kind of dictates. Like the architect actually commands them and then they do it. Yeah, I'm not sure, but currently it looks like they are more management company and where you go with 5MEO is more like, you know, actual the architect. But again, I'm being super careful

because I definitely don't want to like upside anyone. So hopefully I'm doing my best to get it right, but I'm not sure. We're just speculating. Sure. We're not saying this is what it is. You know, some beings can be very moody. That's true.

Yeah. Have you ever been locked out? That never happened to me, no. With all your experiences, never locked out. No. I can say that maybe a few times in which I had to do more. I'd never heard of that until Andrew brought it up. It kind of blew my mind.

That's even a thing. Yeah, it was known in the community. Was it? Yeah, yeah. When I was on Danny Jones with Zoltan together, Zoltan brought it up because it happened to him one time and he said oh there must be hundreds of cases because

in our little psychonaut community kind of a lot of people know each other and when we pulled it up on the computer there was almost no reports of this like no it was like that's strange we kind of know about a lot of them and then after Chase Hughes spoke about it all of a sudden that clip went viral and all of a sudden

boom everybody talking about obviously so it's like it became like a much more known thing I think that's where I first heard it was it's fascinating It also tells you that there's something going on. Yes. Just that by itself, by the way. Did you do DMTX?

Yeah, I actually, as far as I know, and this is just like a fun and little surprise, when we did the first big one, when we did like a shoot for the film, if I'm not mistaken, I'm still holding the world record, basically. So I did five hours with 464 milligrams. So that's, I think Chase, after that went after me. I think he did like four plus hours.

I don't know how many milligrams they did. I think a little bit less. We weren't trying to break a record or anything. One day, if we really feel, you know, called to it, maybe we'll try and actually, like, make, like, a real record. And I have to design this one, because I can stay there indefinitely. No, I really can. I was like, I really enjoy it.

But the reality of it is that I don't even think it's that hard. I think that some people I really enjoy that. Chase was one of them. I don't think if you're enjoying yourself, just to stay in your body and you'll be fine. Like, you know, you can just enjoy yourself for hours and hours and hours, maybe days. We'll see. How different was the experience?

It's a lot more pleasant. Yes. That's what I hear. Yeah. And it's also a lot less ampy. When you smoke it, there's this like a boom. Yes. Yeah.

It's the jolt. Yeah, it's the jolt. Wow, really good word. The jolt doesn't happen. It's more like a hockey stick. It's still exponential. I didn't know that. But it kind of goes like a very smooth.

And you can control it. You can ask. you know, we're doing it with Kevin and Haley in Colorado, and you can just always ask them to lower it. If people are interested in like the super legal thing, then you can also go to, probably Andrews spoke to you about this. Yeah, Lucis. It loses.

It's St. Vincent. Paradise, beautiful, great crew. More expensive. Expensive. But if you can afford it, it's worth it for sure. Great people. We went there. We did this with Carter as well.

Shout out to Charles and Christina, who's, you know, invited us. And, but yeah. There are cheaper ways, and they're worth it if you really want to explore it. There are cheaper ways. We're not going to discuss those. Yeah, yeah. There are other ways. No, like even in Colorado, because it's decriminalized.

It is decriminalized. It's not a criminal offense. That's true. Yeah, yeah. So it's a misdemeanor. Nobody, they actually had two CIA agents do it. I think three, and I think Kevin said that two of them told them, we know what you're doing. We don't care though.

I bet the CIA has done a lot of DMT. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I bet they've been in there a long time. Yeah, I've done, have you ever done the gateways? No, the gateway tapes. Gateway process, I try to keep falling asleep. You know, a similar thing happened to me, but then I learned how to kind of stay somewhat awake.

I'm very similar to you. And I noticed that there was definitely changes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I started feeling there was one case that was really outstanding. I put my head next to my wives like this, head to head. The second I touched her head, I felt this headache. but I knew it wasn't mine. I'd like, feel it.

I was like, do you have a sharp headache right here? She's like, yes. Wow. It was crazy. Like, you could feel her headache. So there's definitely something there. It's supposed to unlock whatever's down there. Do you believe in the universal consciousness?

And we're all just micro-projections of it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think consciousness is fundamental. There's no, I don't think you can, I don't think you can responsibly describe the world without consciousness coming first. That just doesn't make any sense. I think so, too.

I've heard you talk about Benarna Castro quite a bit. Great. There's one thing that I always want to ask him that I don't understand why he's so insistent on it, which is that he thinks it's substrate dependent, which is strange. He only thinks it can be kind of instantiated in a physical matter.

But other than that, I think he's probably the best outliner of this world. He thinks it's substrate dependent? Yeah. He always gives this, again, it's very confusing because without a doubt Bernato is one of the smartest people on the planet. I thought he believed the physical comes out of the consciousness. He says things. things like, which is why that example is so...

I would love to ask him one day, but like... And I don't mean it disrespectfully. I just truly find it like a silly example. The example it gives is like, well, if I simulate your bladder on my computer, my computer is not going to pee. That's literally a thing he says. I'm like, why is not going to do anything? But the computer is a different substrate.

So like, if you simulate a whole body on the computer, then the person in the simulation will pee. Sure. Why are you... What is this translation? So I guess maybe that's what he means by it's not. translatable for one substrate to another, but it's not the same as saying you need matter to make consciousness.

That, unless he assumes that matter is the final kind of thing that is with consciousness, I'm not sure, but I would love to ask him one day. I wish he would do some podcasts. One day, I really hope that we'll meet. But I consumed basically everything he has to offer. And yeah, definitely one of the more important people in that world, in that thought realm. super eloquent, very clear on what he's saying. Best outlines of why free will is really not a thing they can even be.

That's right. He doesn't believe it isn't free will. And the projections, he believes that there's some will down below. Well, like I said, is the only place that can have that will. That's kind of what I was thinking when you were talking about. Yeah, it's the same. The box. Well, I actually, for a long time, struggled as to how people can't see that, that it's not a coherent idea. But then I realized that maybe would be.

people mean by that is not really what, let's say, I mean by that or what I think ought to be meant by that, because words mean things, right? So if you're saying free will, what I think is implied is that you think that you're somehow free of the immediate moment and somehow you float free of it and then you make the choice in this some kind of a vacuum of something. It must be what people mean by this, right? I'm different than whatever, right? Just being pushed around, right? But then And maybe if the idea is more like there's more freedom of operation because there's more degrees of freedom, that's true because the brain is a much more advanced system. But in the end, there's just a more complex system of like things pushing each other like you, right? So the conscious part of it, which is the feeling that we have that were we, which is different than just what the neurons are doing, right?

Somehow that is postulated to have that freedom. And also the word will is interesting. because what you're saying is that you're kind of willing it to be, right? There's almost like a just magical quality of just kind of like I'm willing it. Both of them don't track even the first step of observation because obviously whatever brought you here is responsible for what's going to happen next. Right. So it's always, you always within the sets of dominoes falling,

you're never outside of that sets of domino's falling. You can't, the reason it's an incoherent concept is because you can't describe a situation. that is logically consistent in which somehow all the dominoes are falling but when it comes to this one domino the domino stops everything almost one second

I'll think because then what is that internal process of that one domino it's infinite regress where is the end of that the answer is the beginning of everything that's the one hole in the donut that connects between what we experience

as a choice that isn't really chosen by us but yet feels like, it feels like a choice only when you retroactively fit a story onto it later. Right, man can do what he wills, but he can't will what he wills. Exactly. How can you know your next thought if you haven't thought it, right? So ultimately you have to bring it back to the ultimate first moment, which is Bernardo's point,

but with a caveat, which is that he says that you can say that the universal mind has this kind of like freedom of will, with the one caveat that it is free to choose that it is ought to choose because of what it is. Because if it's the totality of things, it is all the things, therefore it has a state

that dictates what the next state is and it can experience it as a choice, but how free are you if you have to do that thing because of what you are? And if you're saying, yeah, but what if this, other things influencing it, what other things? Because we're talking about the ultimate. Because if you said other things, you're no longer referring to the ultimate. You're now referring to something

that is within something else, and that's not the ultimate. Sometimes I forget that we're doing a show right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thinking about so much stuff. Castrop's theory kind of explains why randomness isn't a thing. Well, it doesn't solve it. It doesn't solve it. Right. Yeah, because randomness is the opposite of free will. Right. It's not targeted. It's just random. And also randomness can't be because right is no true randomness yeah because if it's the totality of things

it is guaranteed to be the ultimate set of everything that is possible and if you're saying random well then that means something is outside of the scope of that and therefore now it is the ultimate now that is the ultimate you know horizon of relevance man

like it's true it's true you once said that 99% of your audience would disagree with what you actually believe. They came for the Matrix, and you're quietly handing them metaphysics. I'm quietly handing them to present moment. That's what you're doing. Yeah.

Present moment. Yeah. It's the only thing that ever matters and never will. Are people disappointed? Sometimes. Because they just want to talk about the laser. They just want magic. They want magic, they want the Matrix.

But the magic is right here. And then the matrix and everything else becomes even more profound. Because everything that is experienced truly through the present moment is always more profound. It truly is. There's an expansive quality to it that you can't communicate with words because the logical trace can't really follow there. I want to close with one thing. And I think you're going to nail it.

When we talk about lack of free will, that's usually very nihilistic, It's usually very dark. If there's no free will, nothing matters, life doesn't matter, but you have a different take on that. Yeah. It's the opposite of that. The idea that because you don't have the ultimate say in things, which is what free will postulated to be,

is the ultimate prison, not the ultimate freedom. Just like we said with the AI, if I put you in a situation where nothing is, and you have to make a choice, that is the hardest position to be in because you're literally bringing it out of nowhere which is almost impossible. The freedom is in the understanding

that you are the space in which all of this is unfolding. You're literally the totality of things where you are. And that, to me, both connects you to the ultimate and also frees you to just have fun because you don't need to worry about the ultimate state of affairs. you can just enjoy this to its ultimate degree through actually acknowledging that that's the case. Being pushed around as the universe,

it's kind of fun. The state of flow is a lot of fun when in fact you're in it, because you're surfing. There's an elation there. So you actually, the irony is that you gain the ability to experience actual magic, like actual magic in real time.

When you get a wink from the universe, there's nothing more satisfying than this. So I think that if people are just willing for one moment to drop their need to, you know, to be this final arbitrary in order to feel salvation, and realize that that's an arbitrary choice they're making to put their salvation there. If I don't have free will, what is it all for? For this. Do you feel good right now?

Because if not, I understand why you're trying to escape it, but there are ways to truly drop into the present moment where everything opens up. you're literally being handed everything. And I will be honest, it sounds like a vacuous promise if somebody has never experienced it. But this is why within the crazy pyrotechnics that people can experience on psychedelics,

the thing that I would encourage anyone to notice if they are doing that is not the pyrotechnics, but how it can feel when you freed from the constraints of needing to make decisions or what you imagine making decisions. See how that feels in your mind.

body. You can breathe. You'll feel true compassion. True compassion, true freedom. That's the freedom. And then you don't need things to be this or that. They can be anything and you will enjoy them just as much. And you can experience hardships in life and everything else, but it will never have the same

dire nature, the nihilistic nature that you might experience because it's the mind trying to tell you what must be for you to be free when in reality you're already always That's the way to land the plane. Where can they find you? Dan Goal Thoughts is my YouTube channel. D-A-N-G-O-Thoughts. Danny Goller.com is all my links. Our retreats, I highly recommend to check it out.

c-o-r-r-r-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-ROT. If people want to check out everything with our nonprofit. Danny Goller, this has been a joy. Thank you, my friend. Hi, everybody. That was Danny Goal. We covered the laser, the simulation, his cosmology, free will. Let me try to make some sense of it if I can.

Here's what holds up. Danny isn't making his life up. American Ninja Warrior contestant, born to Moscow, raised in Israel. The Vipasana he credits for everything is real. a 10-day retreat, where you sit in total silence and observe your thoughts without judgment. And he corrected me on his own credentials. IPI letters, he said, is a newsletter, not pure you. And I trust the guy who downgrades his own resume.

Now the bigger claims. Danny says reality is computational, rendered, not fake. Then physicist Melvin Vobsen at the University of Portsmouth published a 2023 paper in AIP advances. He calls it the second law of infidynamics. Information and physical systems. compresses and optimizes over time. That's not what you'd expect to happen in reality, but that's what you'd expect if the universe were running on a computer.

That's a real paper. It's peer-reviewed. It's not accepted science. Most physicists disagree. It's just theory, but it's interesting. Danny says mushrooms erased his OCD. Now, a 2006 study at the University of Arizona gave psilocybin to nine people with severe OCD

and cut their symptoms by up to 100%. The one thing I couldn't verify is the code itself, the symbols. Thousands of strangers seeing the same symbols in the same spots. There's no published data yet. Danny's really the first to say so. And I have experience with the molecule, and I never seen anything like that. But I never looked into a laser. Because why would you?

Before the laser, Danny was on DMT, and a being that looked like a frog showed him chords on a guitar. Cords he said he didn't know how to play, and then he did. Now, if it happened, that information came from out. side of his own mind. If he didn't, the most important moment of his life was a misfire on a drug. He can't prove it, I can't disprove it, but I'll take his word for it. And he built 10 years of work on it, and he tells the story the same way every time. Now here's my take. On the surface, Danny's just another psychedelics guy with a retreat and a nonprofit. But that's not what he's

doing. He's taking the most subjective experience a person can have and building an experiment that could prove him wrong. He keeps saying the truth always wins. and I believe him. A man selling you a belief system doesn't invite you to debunk him. Danny says, bring on the truth and he'll accept it. I take him at his word. You can find him on YouTube at Dan GoThoughts. That's D-N-G-O-Thoughts.

D-N-G-O-Thos. His retreats and his non-profit code of reality are all on Danny Gollar.com. And I'm thinking about trying it. That's Goller, G-O-L-E-R. Links are down below. Now, if the simulation is something that fascinates you like me, I broke it all down on my episode We Live into simulation.

I included the science there as well. It's a lot of fun. Until next, I be safe. Be kind. You know that you, I appreciate it. You got the cats in here? Come up, man. I'm trying to...

Need it. The scenario 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music. and the like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth.

My friends, and it never ends. No, it never ends. Back at and got stuck inside males' hole with M. K.L. truck being only two away. And in alone, on a film set were the shadow people there? just fought the smiling man And I'm told And his name was cold And I can't believe

The mouthman sightings And the solar storms still come To have got the The secret city underground Mysterious number stations Planet Serbode 2 Project Stargate and where the dark watchers found

We're in a simulation You know what I'm going to be able to get me.