The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Diana Pasulka | Angels, Vatican Archives, and a Government Email

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

Don’t sleep on [@ultrapouches]. New customers get 15% Off with code BASEMENT at https://takeultra.com! #UltraPouches #ad Ready to reach your goals? Visit https://hims.com/thewhyfiles to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call [phone] now. A religion scholar spent years studying near death experiences and old church doctrines. Then aerospace insiders started emailing her university account, asking for her research on angels. She treated them like any other academic contact and shared her sources. What she didn't expect was how far that relationship would go, or who was really behind it. Her own family carries a stranger history than she ever brought into a classroom. A Coast Guard cutter that stopped dead in freezing water. A mountain her grandfather swore hid something else. We get into apparitions, orbs, and a theory about what's actually reaching out to us. It's not the answer you'd expect, and it changes how you look at your phone. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking with Diana Walsh Psoc. She's a religious studies professor who spent years in archives most people never see, including the Vatican's, reading sworn testimony about saints who levitate in front of entire towns. Then the government noticed her research, and she ended up blindfolded in the New Mexico desert

digging for debris at an alleged UFO crash site. It blindfolded and driven out to the desert with a shovel. Sometimes I miss the old Vegas. By the way, this is a woman who won't set foot in a haunted house. The blindfold was fine, apparently. Today we're covering the Flying Saints, the recruitment, and why she believes a new religion is forming around UFOs,

with somebody already writing its Bible. Her new book, The Others, just hit the New York Times bestseller list. The Times list is rigged you and controlled by big publishing. Unless she's on it, then it's a very prestigious honor. Congratulations, Professor. And her leading candidate for the Antichrist? I didn't see that one coming. It's a cat, isn't it?

It's not a cat. It's exactly what a cat would want you to do. Stick around after the episode. I'll pop back in and untangle the conversation. Let's go down to the basement. Did you start your career in death? I know that you teach you the museum of death and dying sometimes in Brooklyn. Yeah.

Okay. So what was it that drew you to death? To death. Yeah. I know. Okay, so I've been studying religion my whole life. And I'm in religious studies, so I just have to explain what that is. So, because a lot of people don't know.

They think that if you're studying religion, you're like a minister or a theologian. And I definitely, I went to school with priests and formation, people who are going to be priests and nuns and so forth. So I have that background. But I took an academic track. So I was interested in religion from a perspective of, I just didn't think I was good enough, frankly, to be a theologian. Like in order to be a theologian, you have to like kind of walk the walk, right? And I was like, oh, I'm probably not that good, but I'm really interested in religion. Well, what's the difference between a theologian and the clergy?

Yeah, they're the same. So in order to be a clergy, you have to have a theology degree. And so I had the same background as a person who has a theology degree, but I went extra and got a PhD in an academic field. And I'm super happy I did. So I'm in this field called Religious Studies, which looks at religion. I mean, most of the world are religious practitioners. It's really an important thing to know about. And so I study, but not from a belief perspective.

So I'm not advocating for any belief. I'm not advocating for belief in Christianity. I'm not advocating for belief in Buddhism. And I don't advocate for people to believe in UFOs. But that was the second part of my career was studying UFO belief. And so how did it? I get into death and things like that. So it wasn't really a choice. It just kind of happened. So I was looking at the ways in which my field is looking at technology and religious belief

and the interactions that technology has on how people practice their beliefs and what they believe in. But I was really interested in extraordinary events and how people describe them. So what would that be? That would be like looking at angel contact events in the historical record for Christians. What do they believe or Jewish people? So I started to look at that. That invariably crossed over into people having near-death experiences and things like that because a lot of people who have extraordinary events also have brushes with death or something like that. And so that's how it happened. It was very on accident, kind of.

And one of my first publications in the first publications when I was a young assistant professor was looking, and by the way, I also spent a lot of time in archives. And archives are old libraries. So archives, so this is for young people out there. Believe it or not, there is non-digitized information, information that is not on the internet, information that is, you know, not on your phone, that chat GBT doesn't know about.

And this is all contained in archives. So I spent a lot of time, like years and years, in archives, old archives, Vatican archives, archives all over the place. And these, you know, we're talking about like manuscripts and books and even stones that have pictoglap, wait. Like petroglyphs? Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah.

Pectograms, petroglyphs, right. So I've seen Aztec petrogloves, yeah. So it's comparative religion. It's everybody. Oh, yeah, yeah, it is. It's comparative religion. And so the first publication that I wrote was about near-death experiences of children from the 1800s. And there was, believe it or not, there was a whole genre of writing about children who died and came back and said what they saw.

or just before they died, they were in a state where they could see people who had been dead and then tell their friends, oh, so-and-so is okay, or, you know, I saw so-and-so, and this is what they want to say to you and so forth. And so I thought this was really interesting. So that's what really got me into looking at death

and why actually I became, I'm part of the American Academy and Religion, which is an international group, or mostly American, but international, of people like me who study religion. And I co-chaired the death session of that for like 10 years. And now it's co-chaired by a former student who's now a professor. So children near-death experiences is interesting because they're not,

they don't have enough time on the earth to be primed for what to see. Yeah. And yet they're seeing the same things that kind of everybody sees. Yeah, yeah. So near-death experiences are interesting. One of the first recorded near-death experiences happened, well, was recorded about 2,500 years ago. And that's with Plato, actually. So in his book, The Republic, he talks about a soldier who dies on the field, you know, the, I guess the front.

And everybody thinks he's dead. And then he comes back to life. And he says, wow, look what I saw when I was dead. dead and it's really interesting. And so they've been around for a long time. And they look similar. The patterns are similar. Are you seeing the same patterns in other cultures and religions as well?

Yes, you do. You see the same patterns. There are inflections, cultural inflections that are different. But for the most part, it looks pretty consistent. So what you see when I know it sounds strange, When a person dies and they come back and talk about it. It's not strange in this room. Okay, good, good, all right.

So often what happens is they have like what is called a life review. And in ancient Egypt, there's the same thing. There's this God Osiris who's looking at, you know, if your soul is not, he weighs your soul. Against a feather. Yeah, exactly. And if it's not, if it's heavy, there's a demon that, you know, so there's always a sense of judgment that you, you know, so there's always a sense of judgment that you, get after a really kind of okay experience of meeting a guide, right? And the guide can be like a luminous being or it could be if you're Christian Jesus or, you know, so there's always that

cultural inflection of that helps you frame what you're, what you see. And then if the person, well, the person has to come back to explain that they went through this. But this was a whole genre of literature for Catholics of the medieval era and that, you know, European, basically the European continent, right, where these people are having these experiences and then monks are writing about it and they're called other world journeys. And so I got into other world journeys. And that was, my first book was about purgatory, which is a dogma of the Catholic Church that describes when soul. are not good enough to go to heaven. Where do they go? It's this place called purgatory. And so

purgatory was, I spent a lot of time in archives to write that book. So that was my first book. Why did Catholicism kind of abandoned the idea of purgatory? Well, okay, so they haven't technically abandoned purgatory. So that's still a dogma of the church. What happened was that there was a big, like, almost like an internal reformation for Catholics in the 1960s, between 1961, And this is called Vatican 2. And what they did was they determined that a lot of people were falling away from the Catholic Church. Why?

Right? And they thought it was this emphasis on, well, you know, we tell them when they're died, their soul will go to hell or purgatory. It looks pretty bad, right? And that's not a good look, right? So they reformed how they taught their priests and they taught their priests in seminary to downplay this idea of purgatory. And so in that sense, so when churches in, you know, pre-Vatican two churches were built with a place where people would pray for the souls in purgatory,

though that's not done now. That devotion is still done by believing Catholics, right? Many Catholics don't know about it though. Like, no, no, young Catholics aren't, I mean, if they're traditional as Catholics, by the way, this is a source of contention. Every time I talk about it, Catholics email me, and they're very upset. And they say, no, we know about this, Diana. What are you talking about? And I'm like, well, you know about it. But like the Catholics that come into my class, those young people, they don't know about

purgatory. So it is a thing that they downplayed that for those Catholics. But there's a comeback right now happening in Catholicism. And those ideas that were downplayed in Vatican II are now being embraced by young Catholics. That's funny. So whether it's Vatican II or 367 or Carthage or the Council of Trent, it's all about marketing. Yes, it is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. How does the idea of purgatory and Catholicism track with Dante's work?

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So he's in the 1200s rights, the Divine Comedy. which is basically about his journey, his soul. You know, he's in love with this woman named Beatrice. And so, and he's had a pretty terrible life, right? So he's been ostracized and, you know, so he's upset. But he writes this beautiful epic poem about his journey that his soul takes through the various levels of the afterlife. So there's the purgatorio, there's heaven, and then there's hell.

I think everyone knows the inferno, but they don't know Purgatorio or Paradiso. That's right. They don't. That's right. And so what happens, though, during this is he has a guide. So, you know, it's a classic kind of near-death journey, but like upgraded, right? Yeah. So it's not a couple pages. And it's also beautiful. But he also describes in depth the punishment.

of the people in the various places like in hell, the inferno. And it looks brutal, right? And some people that did him wrong in life, you see them there in the poem. So, but it's really beautiful when he gets to, so Virgil, by the way, is his first guide and is a, what he calls a good pagan, right? So a pagan being a non-Christian. And he's not allowed to go into heaven. So he has to stop at some point.

And then, of all people, Beatrice becomes his guide. And when she ascends, it's quite beautiful, actually. And I recommend it as excellent reading. It is. Yeah. And the political commentary is entertaining in it. It is, yeah. But your question was, does he get it right, right?

Yeah. So, I mean, that's the thing is we don't know, right? We don't know. But I think that he, you know, he follows the template of the medieval other words. journey. And he has all the elements there, right? So any, you know, I don't know if he gets it right, but I kind of, there's a part of me that thinks, especially when you get to how he describes the heavens, which bring in like the imagery of the stars in the imagery of space. And I mean, that's pretty cool. And, you know, he's writing like so long ago. How could he know,

those things, like the Imperium and so forth. He's talking about a center of the universe and space where God attracts and pretty amazing. It's almost like he read the book of Enoch before he wrote that. So we know that Plato influenced Catholicism. Was there influence? What about Osiris and the Duot? Is there influence there as well? Gosh, that's a good question.

I can't say authoritatively. I don't know. I only one guy knows. Yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, no, I do not know that. I'm asking more academically, if you see that. Because I see the connections between when they go from polytheism into Akhenaten and monotheism,

and then it dovetails very nicely into the story of Moses and Exodus. There's a through line there that I think you can follow through history. I was just curious if early Catholics were aware of the duot and how all that worked. Could you see something? I would assume so. I would assume so. But I can't see.

My position is if I don't know it specifically and can give you the evidence for it, but I can tell you off record. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Off record, I think so. Like, I think so. So, but, you know, let's just say that that's not my academic self saying that, because I don't know authoritatively.

So everything you're saying today, are you speaking for UNC? you're at the spokesperson out today? No? No, no. Okay. No, I'm speaking as a private individual. Fair enough. Okay.

Yeah, but I hear, I do agree that, you know, when I went to seminary and, you know, did that, that training, we didn't learn about Socrates and Plato and it's their influence. So although it's truly there. You didn't? No. And that's what I think is so amazing, was that in a sense, I have. had one of the best educations you can have in that field. But so many things I learned on my own by reading, you know, theologians that did have that training. So that training kind of got cut off. And thank goodness for, I mean, this is the good part of technology, you know,

you can learn a lot, right, today. Just doing your own stuff, right? What would you call it? Like armchair PhD or something like that? And you can definitely do that. And also another thing, though, which I like about the work I do, is that I have a lot of friends who know a lot about different things. So if I don't know the answers, like Hebrew Bible information or something like that, I could just go to them and say, what does this say in the Hebrew, right? And we can work it out. And that's part of the reason I went to school, by the way, is so that I could have an extended network of people who, because you can't know everything. Right. But you and your friends can know a lot.

So when you read Plato, when you read The Republic, and he talked about the immortal spirit, you were just like, wait a minute. Well, you see, I was exposed to that as an undergraduate and even as a high school kid, right? Sure. And so I just read it like they taught me, which was sadly kind of boring, like the boring version of Plato, which, by the way, is really hard to do because it's so fascinating. Yeah. And so I read it and didn't tell you.

take a lot away from it, actually just thought it was political. And it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't until after graduate school, actually, that I started to go back. And even after doing UFO research, I started to go back and think, what? Like, he was talking about the simulation theory. Yes. You know, he was talking about the bad guys. You know, he was talking about so many things that are relevant today. And, wow.

He was even talking about externalized memory. externalized memory. Where did he talk about that? In Fadris. So in Fadreus, Socrates is having a conversation with Fadres. And Fadrus is like these, he's a young guy from Athens who's like into the newest technology, which is writing. And he's all about it. And he's like, this is going to be cool. This is going to take over, you know, kind of like AI guys today, right? So that's Fadrhus. And so Socrates is like, eh, let's talk about this. And he goes, what are the repercussions of you losing your memory to this technology. That's what he says. I mean, he doesn't use that language, but he's talking about memory. He uses that language. And so he's talking about the externalization

of memory and how it's going to change you. It's going to change how you access knowledge. And you're going to lose the capacity to do that. Somebody just asked me recently if Socrates would, in fact, it was a student, it was a graduate student. And she said, I'm asking everybody this question. I want to ask you. And I was like, okay. And she said, what would Socrates think about AI today? I was like, oh, he would like, he would just die, right? He'd bring him back to life, show him AI. He'd probably die.

And she was like, oh, are you sure? And she was kind of disappointed. And I said, yes, because he warned about if we, you know, think about it, culture was oral, you know, orally transmitted knowledge. And many cultures today still, like indigenous cultures, no way. They're not going to do the writing thing. They're not going to externalize their memory because they have a lot of knowledge. They don't want to mess that up.

Okay? So that's going to be something that probably a lot of your viewers won't understand, but I'm going to try to explain it. And that is that, you know, in Fadrys, what's going on is that Socrates, the reason why he knows so much is because he doesn't know anything. And that's what he said. He says, I don't know anything. But then how does he know things?

He knows math. He knows things that we just figured out using technology today. These things called the solace, the platonic solids, they're real, right? But they're not in our dimension. And we're using, you know, professors at UC Berkeley are now figuring out how to identify these things and what they are. And like the tetrahedron and so forth. Well, how did he know that, right? How did he know that?

He was using his brain and his body in a different way. And he said, writing is going to mess this up. We don't really want to do this. And he called it an amnesis. So it's a form of retrieval, like memory retrieval knowledge. What's the problem with writing? Because it would be corrupted. The oral tradition would corrupt it as well.

You would have your own sort of your own leanings would leak into that. So he did have the hope that there was a form of writing which could be helpful. Okay, there was a form of technology which could be helpful. This would only be, though, for people who were already in contact with the ability to retrieve knowledge in this way that he's talking about. And there aren't very many people that could do that because he had to train them, right? They had to be trained. And yeah, so, you know, so my grad student, here, there you go. He's not going to be happy about AI.

Don't we see it with every technology, whether it's video games or, you know, comic books, any kind of new way of communicating is always, you know, what are the repercussions of this? Yeah, that's absolutely true. I do, I do think, though, that he's right, that we can have it, but we just have to have it in a way that's helpful. And I always present to my students when I give this talk to them. Because, you know, right now what I find is that young people know what's happening. They're not, like, they're also upset. They're like, oh, how could you have given us a world like this, you know? And I'm like, oh, sorry. You know, how, like, what do we do now? I lost the train of thought that I was going down. That's okay. We'll pick up the train at some point.

Okay. Okay. That's the boomer generation. Gen X is fixing it. We're fixing it. Yeah. We're, I don't know if it's compatible in ancient Egyptian, but what about reincarnation? How does that work with Catholicism? Is it compatible? No. It's not compatible. No. Even though there are references in, you can see Hebrew Bible references and so forth. And even in the New Testament, there are things that are like, what does that mean? But no, it's not going to be compatible, though. With Catholicism is an interpretation of the Bible and, you know, the extra biblical texts and so for that went into influencing the early church.

So it's not the only Christian religion. There are Christian denominations in which reincarnation is compatible, but those are different interpretations. But for Catholicism, it's not. How do you feel personally in comparative studies? Okay, so that's, yeah, so as an academic looking at that, you know, there are a lot of things that the denominations hold as tradition and dogma, that when you look at, this is why it's important to make this distinction to students, especially when they come in and they have their tradition. they're Jewish or they're Christian. You know, you don't want to upset their ideas, but you want to present the, you know, what we have over here is religious studies.

We're looking at it historically. You know, some of the things that we get from the Hebrew Bible is that it looks like, you know, it's not monotheistic in the beginning, right? And that, you know, there's an idea of other gods and so forth. But that doesn't have to challenge their faith's interpretation. They just have to go back and figure it out. Like, what does their faith say about this, right? And I think that's why I was interested in religious studies because I thought all those challenges, you can't then for me, it's not okay.

Like, God gave me a brain, right? I'm supposed to use it. So I'm not going to say, oh, that's not compatible. I'm going to put it over here and not even think about it. But every once in a while it creeps in, right? Sure it does. And so, yeah, so religious studies allows you to think about those things and, you know, deeply. And what I find is that Catholics and the, you know, a lot of Catholics think about those things.

Of course they do. Yeah. I mean, when you read some of the stories about children who come back or children who are remembering past lives, I think most of it is bunk, but some of the stories are really compelling. Have you ever read about, like, James Lenniger and some of those other stories? Yeah, yeah, I've read so many near-death experience stories, yeah.

And as a Catholic, do you dismiss it? No, no, no. I believe that people have near-death experiences. I have students throughout the time. What about past life experiences, though? Yeah, okay, so I'm not, I don't know. It seems amazingly compelling, like you say, that when young children, you know, talk about, you know,

their lives and you can corroborate that, there's that Virginia University of Virginia archive, right, that is there, I forgot the name of the archive, so part of me for the folks, do that work. There's a bunch of people there who do that work. You should have them on, by the way. That would be really interesting. Yeah, and they could talk about their archive and all the near-death children's near-death experiences that they have in that archive and that work that they've done. So there's room in your belief structure to allow for that?

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So the thing about me is, you know, if it's data that you can't explain, it's data you can't explain, right? So I'm not going to you dismiss it, especially if people are having these experiences. Of course, especially, and since they're so similar, I mean, I don't consider myself very religious, although I'm, I'm moving more that way. I think a lot of people are, but I've said very often that, you know, after I die, if Jesus is there, the first thing I'll tell them is thank God, right? Yeah. So I'm open to it. Yeah, for sure. I just like, I like data. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Me too. But as you get, as you get older, you start to become a little more open-minded about what comes next.

It does happen. Yeah. And how do you feel about that? Do you worry about your mortality? I don't worry about it, but I do feel this way about it. I feel that, first of all, I kind of feel like Socrates, that, you know, this is what he's, well, he sadly had to kill himself. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that.

Yes. But, you know, Athens wanted him to take hemlock. Right. And he chose it. He did, because he didn't have to. He didn't have to. Yeah, yeah. So, but this is what he said.

to his friends who were upset with him. He said, look, I've led a life that I examined and I feel good about. So if I die and there's an afterlife, I'll be hanging out with people I like, right? And he goes, I'll have great conversations with them. If I don't, if there's nothing, then it'll be like the best sleep I've ever had. You're not going to care. Yeah, exactly. So like, wife read about it.

But what I do feel is that I am happy that I am alive. so that I can do things I think I should do. Like the things I think I should do, I have kids. I'm gonna make sure that they're set up all right. You know, that's my, I feel that I need to do that. I have students, I feel like I have an obligation to my students to do the best I can for them and to help them learn the things they need to know.

And even to help the ones that I'm in direct contact with do well outside when they're done, right? Kind of postgraduate. So I have these things, that I feel like I'm, I should do. And I'm glad I'm alive so I could do that. And, you know, maybe I want to be able to, if I know when I'm going to die, you know, if I'm like really old and I say, okay, it's going to happen any day now.

And I feel okay about that. Like Socrates, right? Yes. Yeah. But I don't feel that way yet. So I feel like I'm not, seriously. So, you know, being transparent. Yeah.

I would like to have more time to do as much as I can to, like, To get to the point and I'm not in any way that I like selfish like I want to feel good about what I've done in my life I mean that's not really that selfish The things I want to do aren't like you know Make a million dollars make a billion dollars or whatever you know That's great for the people who want to do that, but I guess I'm people oriented Every diet trend asked the same thing Readjust your whole life overnight new meals new gym schedule new willpower you didn't know you needed

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Congratulations, by the way, on New York Times bestseller list. Yeah, amazing. I can't believe that. Hasn't been two weeks yet. No, it hasn't. Yeah, I feel really shocked. Do your students know how famous you are? I don't think so. I mean, some of them do, but I'm not famous.

Okay. But when they like, you know, some of them are really happy about what I do, some of them send me notes and say, wow, cool. I saw you on this podcast. They're going to say that after this podcast. So my kids love this podcast. And yeah, so that's kind of cool. I do like that. Yeah.

And being well-known doesn't have to be a bad thing because these are ideas that more people should hear, even if you don't agree with them. Yeah, yeah, I believe that. Yeah. So you're on an assignment translating Latin and Hollywood calls, and it's the conjuring. That's right, yeah. What happened there? That was so, that was great. I loved that. Okay, so this happened in 2011, and I'm doing all my normal work, right? Just kind of like doing the professor stuff.

And I get a phone call. And by the way, Wilmington, North Carolina, we have movies. It's called like Hollywood East. So we have like big movie studios and so forth. A lot of things get filmed there. And so I get a phone call and one of the people, they got a phone call and they said, we need someone who does Latin.

And I was like Latin. I'm like, my Latin's horrible. I go, but most likely it's going to be an exorcism movie, a movie about exorcism because why else are they going to want somebody helping me with their Latin? So I said, well, I'll go. Well, oh, no. Actually, what I said was we do have a person who does Latin. And I said, you should talk to her first.

She didn't want anything to do with it. She said, no, I'm not interested. I'm way too busy. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. So I go out to the studio. And it's, I don't. To L.A.? No, it's actually in Wilmington.

Okay. They're filming in Wilmington. And they let me in. And I meet Chad Hayes and Carrie Hayes, and they're these screenwriters. And they bring me back. and I see James Juan on set. And the reason I know about him is because my husband really likes his movies.

And so I'm like, James Juan, you know, like, I don't see him, you know, kind of like. And then I see some of the famous people that are on set and Vera Farmaga and so forth. And I was like, okay, this is going to be a cool movie. And they tell me what it's about. And I could help them because they were translating the Latin right, which is an exorcism prayer, which is the exorcism prayer. But they were translating the instructions. They weren't actually translating.

Yeah, so I said, at least I know this much. Like, my Latin's terrible, but at least I know that much. And so they brought me on to help them. And I had a really fun time doing that. And I still know those guys, and I still work with them. That's funny. Did you consult on any of their movies? Yeah, I consulted on a bunch of movies.

And Netflix? Yeah, I did a series. that was nominated for an Emmy, and it's an Amblin series, which is great, and it's about encounters, which is strangely the name of my book. That was an accident. But my book comes out, and then their documentary comes out, and it's about UFOs. And so that was fun to work on. Yeah, so I've been doing that. I'm doing that now. I can't say what I'm doing. Oh, you can't? No. But when it does happen, I'll tell you about it. Okay.

But it's really exciting. I bet it is. More about death. I want to know about cosmism and Federov. Federov, right. Okay. That sounds like a wild theory to me. Yeah.

Okay, so you're talking about a movement in Russia that is called the Russian Cosmist movement. And the Cosmist movement was a movement started by Nikolai Federov, but also Constantine, Kikovsky was part of it. So he's the guy who did the rocket technology for Russia, right? So Federov was this guy who was a librarian and, you know, really just totally into what he was, like, his books and thinking about, like, writing science fiction and thinking about getting, you know, like the next iteration of human beings. They were going to be close to being like angels, basically. they were going to take the place of fallen angels. Because fallen angels, this is his idea, these are his ideas.

And he inspired all of the next generation of rocket technologists, actually. And so it was this belief system that incorporated Christianity because part of the task, so they had a task, a mission, okay? And so he thought, you know, that the next iteration of humanity, what we needed to do was not only become spacefaring, but we also needed to resurrect all the dead. All? Yeah, all the dead. That would be the good thing to do. That would be, if we could do that, we must do that.

And so it became like a moral imperative. And there are now, there are Russian billionaires who are set on 2040 being the time. when we'll be able to do that, when human beings kind of like the singularity, right, when human beings will be immortal. So this was, so Russian, that's Russian cosmism. And it happened between 1880 to the early 20th century. Well, how did Federov think that that was going to happen? What would the technology be?

Well, he didn't know, actually. Okay. Or else he would have done it. He would have done it. Oh, 100%. He was bent on doing this. How do you resurrect someone who's been dead for a thousand years? or 2000.

I mean, how to think about it, though, AJ, like, how do we make it into space? You know? So those kinds of things that we think are, like, back in the day, they thought, space travel was for nutty people back in the day. Right. You know, people thought that they were crazy. And, but now we're doing it, right? Even airplanes, like, they're like, even electricity, you know, all these things.

Now we can do these things. So he thought, and by the way, this is it. This is a really interesting idea that if we can think it, we can do it. Okay. And I realize that a lot of the history of our country and Russia has these people in them who are like thinking on the very edge. And they don't doubt that we are going to do this. Okay.

And it's kind of interesting because then it looks like it's happening. This is happening. That's happening, right? Obviously resurrecting the dead isn't happening. But this is what this was their moral. They believe that this was a moral thing. thing to do. Well, if we start resurrecting the dead and things start to track like First Thessalonians. I know. Yeah. I don't know. Is that a good thing? Well, I mean, that's the thing. It's like always,

you know, who brought up the idea of it's the Jurassic Park kind of ethical dilemma, right? Right. Should we do it? Well, we could do it, but should we do it? Right. With technology. It was Mary Shelley, Frankenstein. So she wrote. about Frankenstein in 1800. She was only 18, when she did that, by the way. And that was her idea was that, is this really a good idea because we could do it? Like, you know, Frankenstein is the scientist who basically resurrects, takes these bodies, puts it together, uses a little bit of like techno, electricity, and boom, there's this monster. And it's a monster. It's not like, you know, I mean, we could call it a good monster or a complicated monster, right?

Complicated. Yeah, yeah, complicated. But, you know, she's basically putting the ethical dilemma out there. Yeah, she did. Yeah. Yeah, that, I mean, I wonder, does, is Federoff a contemporary of Jules Verne at that time? Is that, okay, Jules Verne is going to be, is that 1880s? I think it's a, it's got to be close.

I'm just wondering because because Jules Verne kind of made all I mean he was basically hard sci-fi Yeah A lot of that stuff has happened I know I know I think so actually So the Russian version of You know because there are a lot

The people who were really intelligent Were hanging out with each other Like the Americans and the Russians You know And they had their communities That they were mutually You know Discussing these kinds of things

maybe it's hard to say he I mean if Jules Verne was writing at that point I would have to assume that Fedorov knew sure I mean because everybody did yeah so of course he's going to and plus he's into sci-fi right right that's right see this is how this this is exactly how academics think

they're like they're like you know even if they can't like you know give the resources and evidence, they're like, this person had to have been influenced by this person, but we can't prove it. Yeah, but they were. But they must have been. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, who is an influence by Michael Crichton or, you know, Christopher Nolan. Everybody knows who they are and their stories. That's right. It's interesting that whether it's Russia or America, the rocket scientists are always involved in the esoteric and all these weird things.

Yeah, yeah. This is an accident? Okay, is this an accident? So that's a good question. I was surprised when I found out that this was the case. So when I moved from Catholic history into looking at UFOs, I decided the first thing I needed to do was look at the space, the history of the space program. So I started to read everything I could. And I also realized I had to read about the Russian space program too, because each of those were the viable programs that got us actually off Earth, right? And what I found was, was that at the basis of those were the scientists who were into the esoteric, right? Maybe the Christian esoteric on the Russian side, and then the occult esoteric on our side. And the thing is that, so I had friends at this point who were in the Space Force, and it was, you know, it wasn't called the Space Force then, and we're like, look, if you need to go to the Air Force archive, just let me know. And I'm like, yeah, of course, I do, I do.

You know, it's in L.A., this and that. And he's like, I can get you in there. And so they were like, yeah, no problem. You have a friend who's an academic writing about the history and space. At that point, I had given a conference. I had given some information, like a belief system of UFOs. And they could Google that and find out. As soon as they figured that out, they were like, nope, you can't come.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I'm not surprised. And there were a lot of things, though, that so I went over everything. could that was digitized, right, about the American, that they released. And their historians were really transparent. They were like, a lot of this history has to be written by future historians because it's still classified and we can't write it. And I was like, wow, at least they're honest. Yeah. Take us to the Vatican archives. I mean, I still call them the secret archives, but I know

the apostolic archives. Yeah, how many times did you go there? So I went there for two weeks once. To the archives? Yeah, the archives and the library, the archives, the secreto archives, and the observatory archives. So how did that all start? Okay, well, it was, again, wonderful things often happen truly by accident. They do. So I was working, I'm working at my university, and I work with.

a sister there for Catholic students we kind of do things but she wants to invite the current director of the Vatican Observatory which is an observatory owned by the Vatican to come talk about what they do there the space research and so forth for our students and other people who want to come community members and so forth so she said can you pick up brother guy he's gonna be at the airport and you know I'm always kind of the go-to person to do all these things I'm like sure no problem you're the what you're the airport run yeah yeah so you know you know know for sister you know rose i'll do that you know sure so i'm like yeah so i'll go i go pick him up

and i take him to father jo's father joe has this really beautiful house next to his church which is on the ocean so we take brother guy there and they they invite us to have some sweet tea we're in the south so we're on the porch looking at the ocean just talking about random stuff and it occurs to me to ask him about you know i'm starting this ufo research and it occurs to me to ask him where is in the Vatican because I haven't gone yet. I can find some of those books about, you know, space stuff. And so I just ask him, oh, I'm writing something about, you know, belief in the rise of UFOs and so forth. He knows I'm totally academic. So he's like, oh, all that stuff that comes in the Vatican actually comes to my archive in the space of observatory in Castle Gandalfo. He goes, we have a place you can stay.

You're welcome to come for as long as you need to. And I was like, I'll do that. Yes, you'll do that, of course. So I did that, yeah. So that, but that's the, that's different than the archives, right? The observatory. It is, but. How do you get downstairs? Yeah, okay, so the archive itself, it is, okay, so there's the Vatican archive,

which in the secret archive. And so the secret just means that it's the Pope's archive. Like, he gets to decide, like, you know, all about it and so forth. And so, that was cool. So it is, there is a basement area, right? and there are various places to go on site at the Vatican. And that was definitely an interesting place to be. Well, take us through the day, the first day.

What doors did you walk through? The guys with guns, the security. Okay, you know about that. Okay, yeah. So that was really shocking. So I was really like- What was shocking? You didn't think there'd be security there?

No, I just didn't realize how scary they would look. Oh, yeah, these aren't Swiss guards. No, they're not. These are actual guards. Yeah, they're guards who, yeah, they're like, you know, they look like an army guys. Like, you know, with everything, they have these big guns and so forth. The Swiss guards are badass, too. They just wear a funny uniform.

Oh, of course. Those guys are serious. Yes, right. So it just so happened. I went there with a person that I knew from the, he was affiliated with our government working in Space Force, okay? And he suggested early on that he come with. me because he would be able to identify stuff that might be of interest. And since I was doing

that research, I thought, okay, that's probably a good idea. So I said, I didn't think he'd be able to get in. All right. So I can take you through that first day. Yes. Okay. So we go on two separate flights, okay? The reason is, is because I have flight anxiety and I really couldn't get on the first flight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I just, it's really, I do fly all over the place. but I have flight anxiety. So going to Italy was, you know, scary for me, but I did it. And so, but I couldn't get on the first flight. So he went out there and I told him how to like try to get into the archive.

What do you do? You just go, F it, I can't do it. I can't do it. You go home? No. You're going to the archives. It's like a struggle, I'm telling you. Call a doctor, get some Xanax, get on there.

No, that doesn't even help. Wow. I know. It's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. I don't really like to fly either. but I mean, I'll go to the Vatican calls, I'm there. Well, yeah, so I did go.

So the next day you made it? Of course. Okay, of course you made it. I knew I had to go. You have to. You know, it's not like, okay, it's not so easy, all right? It's not. It's not.

All right. So he gets there first, and he's like, doesn't know what to do. He can't get in because it's hard to get in. You have a PhD in Catholic studies or something like that. that and you have to have a need to know right you have to have legitimate reason to go and get in and for people who don't know you can't just go there and browse like to do a decimal system you need to say this is what i want to see yes way beforehand because it might be something that they have you know there there are miles and miles of uh

53 miles that's right of archival material so they need to know so they could go find it okay and um so there's all that and so there's all that and so there's the library, which sometimes people can get into, but this is not that. This is not the library. This is the archive. There are, by the way, there are books written about how to study at the archive. So books written about it. Yeah, I think you would need that. Yeah. So I read those books, and I also got in touch with the authors. And I was like, I'm going here. Things probably have changed. And all the correspondence, I had to use Google translate because it was all in Italian. You know, so all right.

So anyway, so the person is Tyler. That's a pseudonym. Are we not naming him yet? Because we know who that is. I know, but listen, I can't name him because I, in my field, it's an ethical imperative. Fair enough. Okay. I've talked about on the show.

For the people who are upset, they can go listen to the show. We talk about him. Okay. So Tyler's going and he's there already. And good things happen to that guy. And, you know, and so he meets an insider. He meets the American priest there who's an insider, takes a liking to him and says, I'll help you, whatever you need, I'll help you.

And so he's like, well, he can't help him get into the archive, right? So, but he can help him with anything else. And but he does get in. And the reason he gets in, so as I'm traveling on the plane, I'm going, you know, and we're texting back and forth. and he goes, can I just show them my credentials? Because he's got special credentials, right? You weren't in airplane mode? You're going to crash the plane.

No, I was in airplane mode, but you can still certain plane flights allow you to be like. I'm only teasing you. No, no, no, no. I wouldn't do that. My goodness, I'm on the plane, okay? So, yeah, so it's Wi-Fi that allows you to text. That is, you know, whatever it is. So I'm texting him, and he says that he wants to show his credentials.

And I'm thinking, that's a bad idea. because it would be like the Air Force thing. They'll like kick us out, you know, if they know anything about UFOs or anything like that, you know. And I said I was there to do research, which I was there to do about these saints that are biolocating saints and flying saints and so forth, right?

And look at their records and so forth. All right, so he's trying to get in. And finally he can't get in. It's like two hours later. And so he asked, and I say, just show them whatever you need to show them and see if it works. like last-ditch effort. And apparently, it worked. Okay, his face came up on their screen,

and they were like, you're in. And I was like, wow, that's incredible. He knew that he would be able to get in. He was just waiting for me to give him the okay. So he was in. And then I finally got there, met him, and met the father who would take us in. Now, I would not go anywhere in the Vatican without this father because of these guys, these, you know, guys with the guns and so forth. Because if you're not, and I'm not looking like I'm a part of the Vatican, mostly they're guys and they're all wearing black and, you know, they look a certain way and I'm not looking like that. And so I'm easily identified. And so there was a point when the father was not near me and the mean guys were like, get out of here. You know, they're going to escort me out. And the father comes back and says,

no, no, she's with me. And they let me go. So every, all, after that I'm like almost hanging on to it you know like following him around but in the archive he didn't come with me so I was able to go I'm a researcher so they take you in they there's a rickety elevator that's kind of scary you're hoping that you don't get you know stuck in it and it takes you down and then there's a bunch of stairs that you go down and then there's a beautiful beautiful room and you have to ask for what you came for right and they get it and they bring it to you and you have to wear special gloves and you sit down at your own table that kind of looks like this and they're there to help you with anything you need and then you sit

there and you're with the book you're with the book the manuscript or whatever it is and probably there were about 10 people in there and you're not you shouldn't talk okay Tyler didn't abide by those rules he doesn't follow no and so he did a bunch of things that I was like stop doing that, you know, but I'm glad he did, actually, because there was a lot of information that we got from that. Like what? Okay. So, part of what we got was information about the candidization record. So part of it was that we were looking into, especially Maria of Agrada. So she, this was a saint in the 1500s, oh, gosh, I hope I got it right. Maria of who? Maria of Agriada. So she's a Spanish, yeah.

So you might have to fact check because I haven't talked about it in a long time. Maybe I'm sorry, it might be the 1600s. It most likely is the 1600. They'll let us know in the comments. Okay, okay. So anyway, so she is the lady in blue. And we do know about her in the American Southwest because, in fact, after I came, after I wrote American Cosmic in which this is described, people from the tribe that had seen her, right, during that time period, you know, they reached out to me and they were like, we want to know about your research,

which I thought was really interesting. So she's this woman who was in Spain while the missionaries were here from Spanish missionaries evangelizing indigenous people in the American Southwest. Some of them didn't need to be evangelized because they had already been evangelized. And the missioners were like, what? Who was here? And they said, this lady. And they were like, So they had actually, not a photo obviously, but they had like a drawing of a nun. And they showed them the drawing, this lady? And they were like, no, younger, but she's wearing the same thing. And so that was weird, right?

Yeah. And so you still see there are churches to her now here in the American Southwest and so forth and all kinds of things and communities that still hold her in reverence. But she believed that she, I've read her books and her diaries. And she believed that she was traveling over the earth. And she could see the spinning earth under her on the wings of angels. And she would come down into the American Southwest and teach these people about Jesus and so forth. And then go back.

Where did she travel from? She traveled from herself. She's a nun in Spain. Whoa. Yeah, yeah. So she flies across the planet. Yeah, she flies across the planet. And in her diaries, she discusses everything.

She discusses the people that she met, one of whom didn't have, like, sight in one eye. And this is corroborated by the Spanish missionary, whose name escapes me at the moment, who describes the same guy. Anyway, so a lot of people won't believe this story, but this story is so fascinating and fascinated me. So I was there to look at her story. And strangely, it was in the same area that Tyler had taken. me to when we went and looked for UFO debris. And so it didn't occur to me until I was actually there in the Vatican. And then I thought about it and I was like, she was there. She was in that same area. And I thought it was a strange coincidence. So I remember looking at Tyler at the time and I said,

do you realize that she was, and he just didn't want to talk about it? He was like, his face got, like, his face got, I'm not talking about that. And I was like, okay. I bet that whole section has very interesting stories in it. I think so, yeah. So there is a book that I don't have by her, which by the way I met a person from the CIA who has a copy of that book, which is weird if you think about it.

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In her diary does she talk about who approach? her to get on, is there a craft? Is this like a murkaba? Yeah, this is really interesting. Yeah, it does sound like murkaba. So murkaba would be chariot terminology for those who don't know. These listeners know Ezekiel very well. Okay, okay, good. So in my opinion, that's what it looks like. You know, she describes the wings of angels carrying her above the earth. So she's kind of like in the stratosphere or somewhere near, you know, the edge of, you know, the edge of, you know, the edge of space and the Earth's atmosphere. She's flying across, you know, I guess the Atlantic. Does she, I mean, is this Uriel? Is this Elijah? Does she name who they are?

No, the angel? Yeah. No, no. Because the stories, we see that story a lot. You know, it's really interesting. That's right. So it tracks with all the stuff that I've read and that's why I thought it was so interesting. And the, so, you know, I mean, when historians and when people generally in my field work, there are some great analyses of Maria of Agrida out there. But they're never going to be talking about the paranormal or the kind of extra weird stuff. They see it as kind of like a story to initiate conversions. That's how they see it, kind of perpetrated by the Catholic Church. I don't really see it that way because once you get into the actual documents,

they just don't, something just doesn't make sense. Now, that doesn't mean that it couldn't be that, because I can't explain why, you know, this kind of thing would happen. But I can say that it tracks with the other world journeys, you know, kind of thing that I study. You were there to see the flying saint. Was that Coppertino? Yeah, Joseph of Copertino.

What's his story? Okay, so, all right. So Joseph is a saint at the same time as kind of, they're around the same time period in the 1600s. I think that's important. It is important, yeah. You know, it's almost like the angels are on mission. Yeah, it does seem like that.

And taking people around, like, hey, while we're here, let's go check it. Let's see what Joseph. Yeah, it's really interesting. So, you know, our... The story's cluster, don't they? Yeah. Historically?

Yeah, so there's a great book out there called They Flew, which is by Carlos Ayer, who's an academic at Yale. That's a good archive. Yeah. So his book talks about the worldview of that time period, of Joseph's time period. But he didn't have access to Joseph's trial record, which I actually strangely have.

We got that translated because I don't translate 17th century Latin and Italian which is what this big archive is made from is written in. And the first thing you notice first of all, it's huge. It's like if you were to print it out

it'd probably be like the Vatican sent me to print it out one by the way and it was like I don't know four feet like just what? Yeah, yeah it was crazy. I have it. And I also have the digitized version. Wait, you have the original one?

No, no, not the original one. No, they digitized it. Okay. And gave it to me to translate, to get it translated. And so I had to get a team to do that because I couldn't do it. And it was a team because not one person could do that. So it's an incredible document because it talks about not just his, first of all, the document itself,

This is during the time period of Spanish Inquisition. Yes. And if you said you saw someone levitate, you were under suspicion. Now, so all these people, though, said, oh, no, he levitated. I saw. And, you know, whole towns. And so what you see is you see maybe thousands of signatures on this document, the first, like, just kind of corroborating that.

He did do this and all these people saw it. And not just their signatures, but who they were. That's really sticking your neck out to sign that. Yeah, yeah. It absolutely is. Yeah. Yeah. So he was levitating.

What's his story? Why did he levitate? Okay, so Joseph is an interesting person because he's described as a person who's not particularly intelligent. Okay? So he's, these are the descriptions. He wanted to be a priest, but he couldn't hack it because it was hard. But he became a priest. And how he did that was by pure.

just determination of wanting to do it. And so after a while, people, the hierarchy were like, he seems to have a vocation to do this. Let's just let him, you know, let's let him in. The problem with him, though, was that he could discern things. When I say discern things, this is like the Catholic version of, I can read your mind, right? He can discern your soul. And he seemingly could. So if you read through the document, there are so many places where a person will say, I was on my way to church, and I was thinking about this. And when I got there, Father Joseph said this to me, Padre Joseph said this to me. And that was what was in my mind. And I don't know how he could have known that. They burned people for that. Yeah, that's right. So a lot of things happened. By the way,

Teresa Avila has some, she's another doctor of the church who's a sister who, or a nun, I'm sorry. And she also had levitation experiences. Didn't they censor her story? I know her story. There were certain parts of it that they censored, yeah. But I mean, she had people who were her editors, let's call them editors, not redactors, right? Editors. So they edited certain things. Yeah. What did Joseph say? Why did he levitate? Okay, so he would levitate when he, certain things would initiate his levitation. They would always be ecstatic, he would go into ecstatic trances. And so those kinds of things would be like Mary, the mother of God. Yeah. And so he would just, if something initiated this, he went to church

and they were seeing in a certain hymn to her, he would go up into the church. And people would try to hold him down. He would be, he would embarrass the parish priest, you know. So he, the thing is that most of these people did not want to levitate, even Teresa did not want to let it. Of course not. Because it was like weird, right? You're paying it out and all of a a sudden you're like, boom, you know, going up and doing these things and people would try to hold them down. The strange thing is that now, this is what I find fascinating, is that because once you read enough of these accounts, you can actually see recurring patterns that are weird. And one of these is this idea of a private gravity. That's Arthur C. Clark's term, by the way. This idea that, and if you know who pointed it out to me,

this man named Michael Murphy, who's head of this institute called the Eslin Institute. He was very interested in this information because he noticed that people could do these extraordinary things in sports. He was like, how could they do that? That's superhuman. He goes, Diana, you need to figure this out by looking at the saints. And so when a person would touch Joseph, they would fly up with him. Not hanging on?

No, no. They would just fly up with him. Because they're in his micro universe. Yeah, they were in a micro universe. they were in a micro-gravitational universe of sorts, which is weird. But same thing with Teresa. People would try to hold her down, but they would go up with her. Why do you think whoever they is or he has wanted them to levitate?

Okay, so the case that I studied, that's the most recent one, where we actually have video and so forth of this, would be I write about it actually in the others called it's a Marion. apparition site in a place in Spain, an autonomous region in Spain called Garibindal. It's San Sebastian Garibendal. And it's between 1961, I think, in 1964. And these four girls also have these like levitation experiences where they also have this kind of same gravitational, I don't know what you call it, space around them.

Okay, so you ask about the intelligence behind it. That's what you're asking. I don't know. Speculate. Okay, speculate. Okay, so what I can ascertain is that these are happening within, this is my field. So it could happen in Buddhism, and I just don't know about it. It could happen in Hinduism.

I just don't know about it. There are stories of Buddhist levitating. Yeah. So those I don't know about, but I can speak about what the intelligence behind. the Catholic cases wants and what they ask for, which is really interesting to me. So they're asking for very ordinary things that people don't do. Fasting once a week. Fasting happens to be super good for you.

Okay? They want you to fast, okay? Why? They also want you to lead a good life, like not be mean, right? Basically do the 10 commandments, treat in the other commandment, treat others like you want to be treated. basic stuff, pray, okay? Another thing that you see in every traditional religion, this idea of praying.

Why? What's up with the same praying? So that's what I started to focus on, was that what is it about these practices that changes a community, changes a human being? And it does change human beings, actually. So there's so much now on the internet about intermittent fasting and, you know, well, that's what this Virgin Mary is asking people to do. Interminute fast for once a week, right?

Well, I mean, if you fast long enough and you're deep in prayer or meditation, then that kind of opens up certain channels in your brain to experience different things. That's right. That's what's going on. So she asked a whole community in the 1960s to do this, and they did. They were a community that had no technology. So they had been living in like a medieval lifestyle up until the 60s. Okay.

So they were in the mountains. they hadn't been touched by television and that kind of thing. They were very Catholic, so they were doing, you know, rosaries every day and so forth. So when this happened to the girls of their community, they believed. And it was when these girls had these apparitions, all the people would come out. So there were like 300 people. They would all come out. And this went on for years.

For years. Years. Yeah, years. It wasn't covered by the media? It was. It's very covered. So in Catholic cultures, a lot of Catholics know about Garib Mandal. And a lot of Catholics believe in it.

People do pilgrimages there. The church has not approved it, you know, because it takes a long time for good reason for the church to approve things like this. But it's not against, it just says be discerning if you go there, if you do a pilgrimage there. At what point did you realize reading all these accounts that? it sounds a lot like a close encounter. When West Jet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different.

People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us

and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Yeah, this was shocking. So I'd spent my formative years as, you know, a professor and a grad student and so forth, studying these, right, and being really immersed in studying these kinds of events and contact events and so forth. And, you know, most of that work was done in archives. And I wrote my book, published it. It did well.

And I got tenure. And so I had, being in archives, what I noticed was that there were instances where people back in the day, like 500 years ago, you know, Catholics in France or something, you know, would see aerial phenomena. And they would be shocked, just like people are shocked when they see something and they rule out drone and airplane and that kind of thing. And they're like, what's that? And so they had the same experience. And then they would interpret it. They would say, oh, it must be a soul from purgatory. Maybe we should pray that soul back into purgatory, things like that.

So I took note of all those things, not knowing what they were, thinking they were strange. And I thought, hmm, maybe someday I'll study those. But, you know, I had this book to write. And afterwards, after I finished with my book, I was going to be on to writing about this really cool priest in the Carolinas named John England in the 1800s. I was going to write about him. And but I never did, and this is why. So I showed that list to a friend of mine. And, you know, just randomly, we were having coffee.

And I said, you want to see this list I have? And I showed it to him. And I said, what do you make of all that stuff? And he said, this is like, this looks like Spielberg films. These are UFO events. And I was like, I thought it was crazy. You know, I was like, get out of here. So that week, though, this is how this stuff works.

That week there was a Mufon, like a mutual UFO network meeting. of experiencers in my town or close to my town. So I went to that and I saw people talking about their experiences and I thought, okay, yep, these definitely sound like that. They do. And that's when, that was my first shock. But I still, I didn't believe in UFOs. Okay.

So that was my first shock, though. So did you get a move on just with your arms folded? Like, look at these cooks? No, no. I went to understand like what, was going on. Because something happens to some of these people, not all of them, but some of them. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't going to discount it, but I wasn't going to be a believer. You know, it takes a lot of evidence, right, to make a person a believer in this. So, so that was shocking,

though, when I saw the continuity, because the historical continuity was what shocked me. And then I was talking about it at American Academy of Religion conferences, right? Of course, they all know about that. Like, they're like, yeah, they're like, yeah, they're. Yeah, that's a good project. Diana, you should do that. Oh, they didn't try to dissuade you? No, no. People who study religion, they think it's cool. Okay. They're used to that. Like, think of what we study. We study angel things and, you know, things that aren't supposed to happen.

So they thought that it was a good idea. And within religious studies, it's been done many times, right? What made it different, though, was that I started to get correspondence and visits from people who were from aerospace companies and the government. And they were interested in my research. And they were like, we want to see the data that you have. And I thought, why? Why do you want to see the data that I have? And so I showed them, you know.

And that's when I realized that our government was actually studying this as believers, not as what my position was. Let's take a break there. We'll come back. We'll talk about what the government. wanted you for. All right. So before we get into your recruitment, tell me the story about the Bitter'sweet.

The Bitter Sweet? Yeah. Where my dad had... Yes. Okay. Wow. Wow. Gosh, you've got like some awesome questions here out of the blue, right?

That I would never have anticipated. Okay, so my dad was in the Coast Guard in the 1950s. So he was a high school grad. 18 enlisted the Coast Guard. And so he became the sonar person, like he learned how to do sonar. And he was, we just more found out about this, by the way, because of Admiral Tim Galadette, who is an admiral in the Navy. And so he's doing this really interesting work where he's going back through the logs of people in the Navy.

and people in the coast guard like my dad. And he's basically identifying UFOs in that, you know, or U.S.os, right? So, you know, UFOs at sea. So this is when I'm a kid, so I'm a kid and I'm really young, like I first hear about it probably when I'm like three or four. And my dad is an attorney. So first before that, though, he was, I know it sounds weird. He went to medical school.

So he's this educated guy. who doesn't have friends like that medical school and law school yeah it's crazy yeah so I guess he just during medical school he didn't really want to do that right so it seems kind of depressing to him so became a lawyer and he's a guy who doesn't speak very much he's like one of those guys who just doesn't talk that much right and but when he does say something you pay attention to it because it's a rare time when dad talks so I remember growing up hearing this story probably about three times. And my dad says that he was on the ship he was on. I just learned that he was on two different ships. So the Bitter Sweet is one of the ships that he was on. I guess it's like a cutter.

Okay. And the other one was also a cutter, but I don't remember the name of it. So he's on probably the Bitter Sweet, but I'm not sure. And he's in the waters near like Alaska and they're looking for probably Russian submarines. Sure. Okay. So they're doing that work. This is a 50s. Yeah. 57 probably, around 57. And out of nowhere, he sees on radar something giant at the bottom of the ocean coming toward the ship. How big? Big, like a football field or something like giant, right? And so he freaks out, right?

And as it comes to the ship, he said that a lot of the ships, I guess it was electricity. I'm not sure. but a lot of the ship's functions stopped working. They just stopped. And the ship couldn't, it stopped too. So they had, I guess they put like an anchor down or something. And whatever it was made the ship stop. And they were stopped for four hours.

And they were horrified. Like they didn't know if they were going to continue on. They thought it was a Russian submarine. But the biggest one they'd ever heard of. Yeah, they couldn't really imagine what it was. So they just assumed it was a Russian, some kind of. Russian ship, some, you know, submersive ship. And then it just left.

It just went away. And all functions came back and then they were able to, to resume. Now, he never said anything like it was a UFO. He never said anything that it was a U.S. You know, he didn't have that terminology. He just said what he saw. He just gave us the data points, right? And of course, we were all like, what was that?

You know, we don't know what that was. And so I remember that. And so then I meet Tim Galadette. And I realized that my dad had been one of these people that had seen something at sea. So Tim reached out to me and he said, can you tell me about, you know, about his experience and what ship, anything you know. So my family knows a lot, apparently. So they knew a lot of things. Like my mother knew where he was stationed and the ship and everything like that.

So we gave that all to Tim, and now he's looking for it. He's looking for it, because there's records of that. That's right. He should be able to find it. And didn't like your brothers remember the story and everybody? Everybody remembered the story. Yeah, we all remembered it because it's like kind of family lore. Yeah, did your dad eventually come around to think it was a USO?

No. I don't think so. So my dad died pretty young, but he did have experiences. So his father had a cabin in the redwoods of California. Oh, that's bigfoot country. Yeah. And so my dad said that there was a big like crevice or something, some kind of like, you know. And my grandfather would say, now, okay, I'm going to give you another family lore, UFO story, right?

But it doesn't start off as a UFO story. So it starts off where my grandfather, he likes to tell stories. He and my dad are completely different. So my grandfather likes to tell all these stories, right? And we love to hear them. So he apparently told, because I never heard it from my grandfather. I heard it for my dad. So my dad told us that my grandfather used to go hiking in the Redwoods, right, in northern California.

and in that area of the gorge, and I can ask my brother, by the way, so you can tell your viewers where it is. He used to see UFOs come out of the mountain, right? And we were like, ah, ha, ha, granddad saw UFOs coming out of the mountain. That's funny, right? Okay, so that's the story. So years later, one of my brothers becomes sheriff,

and then he becomes like a homicide detective. And so he's on this homicide, and it's in that area, okay? And so it's a minor. So it's a minor who they don't know what happened to him. He disappeared, they said. And so the people that said this were minors who were on the river and they had, you know, had a camp. And so they gave the missing report and they said, we think, you know, something bad happened to him. So it was up to my brother and his team to go looking for him and to find out what they could find, right?

And so part of the data that they collected was that this guy was on a mission to go get photos of the UFOs that were coming out of the. And my brother was like, hmm, I've heard that somewhere before. And then he came and told us and he was like, look at this. And I thought that was a really interesting connection. Did he ever find anything? No. No. No.

No. There was a mission. I've heard that story before about these guys that go into the woods and disappear or something happens. And it turns out they're from the intelligence community and all of that. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, it sounds like an extraction, not a missing person. Yeah. So your comparative religious studies and then what you get a call from aerospace? Yes. It was so weird. Yeah, not just from a different. There are a few aerospace. So people from various of these, right?

But it's government. It's not, Lockheed doesn't call you. Not to my knowledge. Well, I guess kind of they did, but it's government. Yeah, so it's, well, there are, yeah, it's different aerospace companies, right? And so, honestly, I think that is really difficult to pinpoint, like, because the credentials are so, you know, what would you call it slippery.

Yeah. When you ask them, you know, what do you do exactly? You know, it's slippery. So, I mean, that's just how they presented themselves. So they were interested in the data. They were interested in the data on angels. And they were interested in the data on the aerial phenomena that I had recorded. That you recorded?

Well, no, I'm sorry, not in a video. Oh, okay. This is old school, AJ. Yeah, yeah. That's right. I'm an archivist, you know. I'm like old school. recording this stuff. How do they find out about you? I think because they must, this is what I believe,

and I pretty much have evidence that is true, is that there are certain people from who are tasked to troll the internet for anyone who's doing any kind of research in this area, and they want that data. So I had been doing really low-key American Academy of Religion talks. here and there on the rising belief in UFOs. And linking it to kind of historic, let's compare it to historical contact events with angels, guys. This sounds like a fun thing to do, right? And then they saw that.

And so they were like, Diana. You know, so they reached out to me. How did they reach out? First, they just emailed me at my account, my university account. And you didn't believe the email, did you? Well, I wasn't sure. Like the email's got to be weird.

Do they want, like, do we want to talk to you? we want to buy a coffee or is it more aggressive? Like we want to interview you here at this day? Well, okay, so at first it was, first you have to understand that as a university professor, I would only receive emails from students and faculty. And so when you get an aerospace person saying, you know, and then you're like, you do your due diligence and you check them out. You're like, is this person real?

And then they look real. So you answer them back. They were just asking for my written records. So they wanted to see the data that I used for some of the publications that I did, which, by the way, those publications are free on academia, EDU, right? They know that. Yeah, yeah, okay, I guess you're right. They want to know what's not in there. Yeah, they want to know, like, what's the data used.

So I'm happy to give that to them. Why? Well, because in the beginning, I wasn't quite sure why. I treated them like an academic. So with academics, you show your sources. Okay. That's what we do. We say, I got this information from this source.

And then that person looks at it and says, yeah, that's a genuine, credible source. We believe you, right? So that's what we do. We share our sources with each other. We don't hide them, right? So it was really shocking to me when I realized that, like, they wanted to see this, but they were looking at it like it was real. What year was this first outreach?

This was in, like, 2015, 2016, 2016. before Leslie came. So yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's another thing. It was my research was parallel to the government disclosure, pseudo-disclosure. What are we getting?

I don't know, but that was not a thing yet. So my research was already well underway, and it was on a track that was parallel to the government's, whatever they were up to, right? And so we kind of crossed over, and that's when I, I got, the term now is so misused, but I got red-pilled, right, on what was going on with the government. And it was shocking.

So I had first been shocked to see the historical continuity between religious events and UFO events. And I thought, okay, it seems like something's going on. I don't know what, but let's do some research here. And then to see the government doing it, and I was like, okay. and then to see the extent of what was going on was very eye-opening. So that was a period of re-they-call it ontological shock now. Yes, they do. Yeah, so I went through that for like a year.

Did they communicate with you just through email? When would you? No, I started to meet them. And there were a few different types of people, like depending on where they worked. So this is around, so I think it was around two, I can't exactly remember the year. Maybe it was like 2013, 2014, where I met Tyler, who is a person who's associated with these kinds of, this kind of work, but worked for the government in various capacities. So this is before the email?

Yeah, I met him before, before. Well, how did he come across you? he came across so he did reach out to me and he learned about me through this is i think it's part of his job was he trolled the internet right or he had people who did because he actually probably couldn't and so he figured out who i was reached out to me it took me about a year before i actually met him in person because i wasn't uh you have to understand just a super conventional boring professor here having this conventional boring life. And this kind of stuff with the government weirded me out. I was like, I'm not sure I want to meet anybody like that. Why did he want to meet?

Because I wasn't quite sure what the motivation for wanting to know all this information was. Like why? And they were affiliated with like CIA, FBI. And I didn't really want that in my life. still don't. So, yeah, so I just kind of wanted to keep to my lane. I was in my lane, and I didn't really want to come out of it. I, I, I, I, I, I, intuited danger. I think it may be correctly. So he said, what, let's get coffee, or?

Okay, so he wanted to meet, invited me to Cape Canaveral a couple times, you know, to see a rocket launch and stuff like that. Oh, but I declined to go. okay, even though it sounded cool, right? And then... I mean, that's an approach is come down to see a rocket launch. Yeah. I'm a cool guy. It's all good. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, no, I didn't go for it. You know, so what happened was that when I did finally meet him, it was I bring up the American

Academy religion a lot. I hope that that's... they're okay with that. But this is like a meeting. So I would attend these meetings every year. And this one was in Georgia, Atlanta, and he lived near there. And so I said, look, if you happen to be around, I'm going to be at this conference, maybe we could have coffee. And then he said, yes, I'm going to be there. And so I thought, oh, I better tell my friend, Jeff, that I need to meet him with Jeff.

Like, I didn't want to meet him by myself. Good call. Because I wanted somebody else to, to like, get a read on him, right? Is this Jeffrey Krippel? Yes. Okay. So we did. We met.

And, you know, it was a really funny meeting, too, because we were, it was the American category of religions, a bunch of religious studies people. They're all kind of like, you know, they're similar. You know, it's kind of like a conference for sci-fi people. You know, we have our thing. So, you know, you can identify them. But there's many of them. There's like 6,000 of them there. And we couldn't find a place to eat.

And so he said, well, I'm at, you know, this fancy hotel. And why don't you come and I'll buy you lunch, right? And so he just called and got us a place. And so Jeff was like, wow, that's kind of out of my price range kind of thing, you know, for me too. And he's like, no, I got the, I've covered. Yeah. And so, you know, immediately Jeff liked him. And I was like, come on, Jeff.

you know keep keep up the you know you got to you got to be suspicious here right we don't know about this guy he's kind of nice yeah he's charming oh he was taken in by him yeah so that was the first meeting i pictured like an empty restaurant like oh i bought out the whole place for us it's just us here it was kind of like that yeah and that's when i first realized that he was wearing all kinds of like surveillance devices like he was wearing stuff on him that took video and he said and he said that to us too. So as we were done with lunch, we had a great lunch. We were going back to the conference. Wait, what is he wearing? Like a body care? I don't know. All kinds of stuff. You could even tell, though. And he said, we were walking across the street. It was really windy. And he kind of grabbed

part, you know, like where maybe one of these devices was. And he's like, oh, well, I'm all decked out with this, you know, this video and stuff. And I'm thinking, I took notice of that. Like, I think, I think that's weird. He didn't mention that during the lunch? Like, hey, I'm recording all of this. He probably was. Like, he would seem to record everything. Yeah, I know. All right. So he was. Yeah. Oh, he should, he should disclose that. I don't like that. I think so. Yeah. But, well, he did, right? With the wind. No, I know. I know. So I told Jeff that as we were walking out and that, you know, he went his way and we went ours. And I said, Jeff, like, didn't you hear what he said? And he was. was like, no, what do you say? He's really nice. We should invite him to this conference.

And I'm like, oh. Maybe he'll take us up for dinner. Is that when Tyler invited you to go to the desert? Yeah, so there was a kind of like this standing invitation to the desert, which again, took me a long time to say yes to. What did he say was out there? Okay, so he was, he noticed that the way I studied this topic was not from a belief perspective. That's why you're interesting. Yeah. And so he wanted me to be a believer. And so he said, and I believe, like, I believe people were having these experiences, isn't that enough? No. He wanted to show me physical proof, right? And of course, at this point, I had read all of Jacques Valet's work. I know Jacques. You know, I was all, and, you know, he was so helpful to me. He was like, don't believe anything, Diana. You know, he was telling me this all the time. He's like, people will show you a body. Do you not believe it. Right? Jacques. So early on, like, two, 2012. And so I had the Jacques Valet kind of framework going into this. And so I was like, he's going to show me something, but no way am I going to believe it, right? So, but I'll go out, but I'll only go out with someone. I'm not going out on my own, right? Seems kind of creepy,

really. You know, like he wanted me to wear, like this is a legitimate place that he was talking about. He, this, and a place that he excavated, right, with people over me. many, many, many years. And it was, this is what he told me about it. He said it was, and I believe that this is the place that Jacques talks about in Trinity, because it was after he met him and went out there that he wrote Trinity.

But I don't know. I don't know for sure, okay? Because a lot, of course, a lot is being said about the place and so forth. Yes. And also I got information from various people that said, yeah, just don't talk about that, please.

But how can I not? I wrote about it. It's in my book. So, yeah, so he did take us out to this place that he said was a crash retrieval. You know, UFOs crashed there in the 1940s. Hold on a second. Oh, okay, sorry. Did you get on the plane and where you land in Albuquerque?

Yeah. And when does he say we're going to blindfold you? Okay, so he described the whole process to me, and I decided to, to bring Gary Nolan with me. Right. At the time, Gary, his name was James. He's since come out as himself. But you invited Jeff and said no.

No, I invited Jeff, yeah. But it was outside of his comfort zone. Well, yeah. I mean, I've read that you won't go into a haunted house, but you'll be blindfolded by a government official to got into the desert. Your line is weird, man. Yeah, that's right.

Well, I didn't think anything was haunted out there. You can't blindfold me? You would be blindfolded? That's crazy. I didn't think it was that weird. Did he at least give you a heads up, or is this like another recording thing? Like, oh, when we get there, you're going to have to, for security. Oh, no, he gave us a heads up.

Okay. So it wasn't like a surprise, like, here, put this on. I mean, I had to go through like two years of, like, getting, you know, having my, getting numb to the weirdness of it, right? So he invited me early on. How persistent was he during those years? Oh, no, we just bring it up every once in a while. You know, say, remember, we could go out here. It's, you know, these people have been out there.

And, you know, we get, this is, this will make you believe because you'll see evidence for it. Did he tell you what you'd see yet or just evidence? He said it would be physical material. Okay, so. And I mean, I'm clear in my book. I basically say, I don't believe this, but these two guys believe it. And they're really smart. Yes, they are.

So you're out there with Gary The blindfolds are on They come off So you're out in the desert At a crash site An alleged crash site This is all alleged Yeah yeah

Because as we were talking about earlier I was wondering how you don't know If you're not being used by Oh no I put that in the book Yes Because part of what happens to people I see it happening now Is that they're shown

stuff, right? There's a lot of people and they're shown stuff. Now, they haven't read Jacques valet. They haven't read the whole history of euphology. You have to do that before you endeavor on any of this or you will be fooled. Yes. You will be fooled. So I think people hear my story, but they don't read the, they don't actually read what I say. So I honestly am writing an academic book. And this is for people who are in academia. And we are talk, you know, I'm talking about this as a rising belief system, but I know that this is a curious rising belief system because there's so much real disinformation in it. So my position is, it's all data. Like if he's trying to disinform me, this is also data about this rising belief system. So I had to completely shift the normal way of doing

religious studies. I had to incorporate known unknowns, right? I had to incorporate the idea that I'm being actively targeted for disinformation all the time. And this could be that. But, you know, who do I have? I've got Gary Nolan, and he can figure out if this is real or not. He's going to bring it back to his lab. I've seen his stuff in his lab. I've been to his labs.

He's legit. Well, when you're on the site, what do you see on the ground? What do you, I mean... Okay, sure, sure. Is there a UFO under a tar? Okay, no, no. Listen, listen, okay. So, all right.

So we, so we, I introduced Gary to Tyler. Tyler takes him to that Air Force place, right? And they have some really amazing things there and kind of shows them all this stuff that makes Gary recognize that this guy is hardcore. Like, and Gary's like, okay, you know, he's got their scientists there that are better than these scientists, you know, and he's like, okay, what's going on? So he's beginning to see a bigger picture. And so...

And Gary would know. He totally would know. Yeah. Yeah. So then, so good. I'm glad that Gary wants to go and do this with me because he's the right guy to do it. Yes. Okay.

So we go out there and we take the, you know, we put the blindfolds on and stuff is funny. We make jokes and stuff. And we go for like 40, 45 minutes. We could tell it's kind of rocky territory. And once we get there, he's like, okay, you could take your blindfolds off. So we take the blindfolds off. and we get out of the car and by the way we have to wear like uh there were like rattlesnakes out there and so forth so we have to wear like sunscreen because it's high desert we have to wear these boots

so we're like outfitted out we look pretty ridiculous right so we get out there and i look around because it looks kind of familiar to me and and so he notices that and he says does this look familiar to you. And I was like, well, yeah, it does. And he goes, that's because it was on the one of the seasons of the X-Files. And I was like, what? And so that's when it started to make sense to me as a scholar, because then I was like, all right, this is like real life. You know, this is what, this, in a lot of ways, religion is like this. It starts with kind of like an event that you can't prove, but then it gets reinforced through media. Religion has always been this way. It's been either images you see in church or books or stories and so I was like okay this is ground zero of this new

UFO belief right and I'm on it right now and so then what my job was was basically to watch these two scientists who are complete believers and I Tyler's a believer he's not honestly I've known I knew him for so long and I got to see parts of his life that were so um you can't make up kind of of stuff, you know, like phone calls he'd take and stuff. And I could tell, like, he's totally a believer. And so was Gary. And so they were both, like, so we had metal detectors configured for the area. And so we spent, like, all day looking for this stuff. There were parts buried under things. And so we got this stuff that, to me, looked like frog skin, right? And so a bunch of that stuff. And they put it in bags and they labeled it and everything.

And we were going to take it back with us. You're wondering why it wasn't already collected and taken somewhere? It had been collected. So the thing is that they couldn't get everything. So when we got out there, the first thing I noticed was that there was rubble everywhere. And it looked like kind of rusty rubble, like red colored. And I didn't know what that was. And Tyler said that this was disintegrated cans from the 1950s.

when the government was out there getting everything. And then they wanted to put that down there so people with metal detectors couldn't go out there and get this stuff. And this was actually something that my editor wanted me to take out. So I described it. Because my editor, she's from Oxford, right?

She's an editor with Oxford University Press. And she goes, that doesn't make sense because you're out there in the middle of nowhere. Why would the government put a bunch of cans out there just letting them disintegrate? Is it obvious? Well, I mean, I told her, I said, listen, I don't know.

But that's what I saw. I saw this rubble, and this was the explanation that Tyler gave to me. So we have to keep that in there as data. And she went with that. She was so wonderful, by the way, because I had a lot of weird things to describe, right? And so she was okay with it. Well, no, she wasn't with everything, but she was like, okay, all right. We could keep it in there.

And I'm glad we kept it in there. No, I mean, I think it's important to keep that in there. It totally is. It shows an active cover-up. It shows something. I've since had people tell me that it was just something that the government did, but it had nothing to do with UFOs. And that was, you know, I've had other people tell me things about what it was.

It doesn't matter, really, because, again, from my perspective, from a religious studies perspective, documenting a rise in, belief in UFOs. It doesn't matter if it's really what Tyler believed it was or not. What matters is that's how it fit into his narrative. Yes. And that's what I was describing. So the frog skin, did it look strange or did it just look like more pieces of metal? No, it looked strange. It looked like, it looked shiny and iridescent. Iridescent. With pebbly stuff on it. I mean, it literally looked like frog skin. You know, a frog that has that kind of skin, kind of rough pebbly skin.

I've talked about this in podcast before, and then I've heard that there were endless discussions with Gary about this. We finally put it to rest on a podcast with Chris. I forgot his last name, but there's a podcast out there where we meet and discuss it. Maybe Chris Ramsey? No, no. He's a pilot, ex-pilot who's in Portugal now.

Okay. So did Gary ask to take the material, or did Tyler offer it? All along we knew that Gary would be taking the material to study it. What did Gary find? He found for that particular material right now, well, in the beginning, there were stages of what Gary found, okay? So in the very beginning, he found that the isotopic ratios were really crazy,

and he and Jacques had lots of communication about this, and I was privy to that, some of it. at least. And then later, they were like that. When I'd asked someone about, they were like, they do. Do you want to talk about it? I don't know. Let's just say, I don't want to say, like, it just was kind of odd. So I just kind of like, okay. Gary is probably obviously available that certain isotopes won't occur here. Yeah. And so that's why in the end, like, that's why when I talk about it in the book, I quote him where he says, this could not have been made in this universe and I was like are you sure you want to say that he's like yeah and I was like okay

but later on the universe on this planet um well he's well he's since said other things about it so it's ongoing research I guess okay I'll just put it I'll let him talk about that because I don't want to have any disagreements or anything I'm just talking about what I put in the book and what I experienced when that's okay and if you get some details wrong just go read the books because they're great anyway do we do we get like a metallurgical analysis of what the alias? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, of course, Tyler already had all this.

Yeah, he already knew all of it. Yeah, well, no, not all of it. So there were certain things that Gary could provide that he did not have the equipment to figure out. Tyler didn't have the equipment? Mm-mm. Hmm. I'm pretty sure that's why he was opening it up,

like to, like, well, let's just say, like other types of scientists than the kind that he was utilizing to figure out what it was. because maybe they hit a roadblock. I don't know. This is all speculation. Of course it is. Do you remember the components? No.

If I were a scientist, I would remember, but I am not a scientist, so it doesn't stick in my memory. It's interesting that you talk about a belief system. Was it young who said how interesting it is to be a part of an emerging belief system? Yes, yes. That's what he said.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely, 100%. It's not going away. So who are the apostles, the disciples, who is Pontchus Pilate, who are the Romans in this story? Well, right. So I would say that we all know who the Romans are, right? Who do you think they are? Give me, what's Rome?

The military industrial complex? Rome is the empire. Yeah, yeah. The empire based on old beliefs. Yeah, there's still, by the way, in order, certain things, stuck out to me. And this is in order to answer that question. I noticed that in the rocket launches that Tyler would do, like he's a mission controller, that's one of his jobs, they would use on their rockets, they would put up Roman gods and goddesses, and they would

utilize first century Latin. And I was like, because, you know, I would notice that. And so I asked him once, they said, why are you utilizing Latin? He didn't even know it was Latin he's like what he didn't no he didn't know it and I said this is this is not medieval Catholic Latin this is like first century Latin and and so I wanted to know so that indicates that's an answer to your question well it is I mean if you look at the NRO mission mission patches yeah yeah there you go it's yeah it's all Latin and and Roman gods and esotericism yeah it is So who are the disciples?

I think that, I don't know, but I think the disciples would have to be like the experiencers. People like the experiencers today. That's what makes it a different religion because, a different form of religion, because we have different architecture now that we live within. We live within digital architecture. So a person who sees a, you know, UFO or something will video it and they'll put it, they'll upload it onto Instagram or something like that, right? And then, you know, you have many disciples.

You don't just have like 12. You don't just have this many. You have, I don't know, millions. So it's a different kind of belief system. It's a different kind of religion. It is. But it might be compatible with some of the older ones. Oh, there's a continuity.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's, I know we don't want to get too specific about Tyler. I mean, you've basically named him over the years, but we're not going to do it today. But I would like to hear about what it's like if you're Tyler trying to go through an airport. How is that different for him than it is for the rest of us?

Yeah, so he has abilities, right? So he's conferred these abilities. And one of them is that he just is able to go through airports because of what he does. I don't, you know, okay, I don't know why. But he does have that ability. That idea is magical. Yeah, it is for us.

It opens doors, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I witnessed this many times, and one of which was when we went back from Albuquerque. So we were in New Mexico at the alleged crash site. We did the thing we were supposed to do. We got the stuff. And then he told us what was going to happen. So he said, first off, I did not want this stuff.

I was like, you take it care. He's going to take it anyway. But he's like, okay. So he says, I'll put it in my backpack and I'll wrap it up and everything. And so Tyler says it's going to be identified. The alien metal. It's going to be identified and they're going to take apart your backpack and they're going to let you go. But you know, you're just going to have to go through that.

And it'll be all right. And so we were like, you know, Gary and I were actually talking like when we were out there, we would kind of confer. I was like, do you think this is disinformation information? Gary and stuff like that. He's got, it could be, yeah. And he goes, but, you know, I'll be able to find out, right? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, well, okay. So anyway, so the same thing. We're like, ah, is this going to happen? I don't know if it's going to happen. And so we get back to the airport, and he goes to the other side. He gets a glass of water, and he sits down, and he's just going to hang out there and wait. And so Gary and I are both going through. Gary gets identified. But it's not just your normal kind of, it's like some kind of thing that goes off,

like an alarm. And so they take him to a room. And apparently they do exactly what he said. They take everything out and ask him what he's doing and where he's coming from. And so I get through, I find Tyler, I sit down, and I'm kind of worried about Gary. You know, I'm like nervous.

Was Gary nervous? Gary was super nervous. He was super nervous. So I was nervous, Gary was nervous, but Tyler was not nervous. So Gary gets done, and he's, like, really shaken up, and he sits down, and I, like, get something to drink. So he gets something to drink, and he kind of describes the situation. And, yeah, so that's that, anyway, so, yeah, he can get through airports easily. He once asked where you were concerned if you were the SIOP.

I mean, the reason that's interesting to me is Tyler could have just brought that material through and nobody would have... He doesn't get searched. You know, he doesn't go through the conveyor belt. That's right. He made Gary do it. Why did he do that?

Yeah, well, let's see. You think that... I mean, it could be that. So, absolutely, it could be... You didn't see Tyler go through a metal detector? No. He was waiting for you. That's right.

He goes around the other way. So he wanted the spectacle. Yes, he wanted the spectacle. Of course, of course, yeah, yeah. Any idea? Why the purpose of the spectacle? Well, I mean, it could possibly be that obviously he wants to raise, you know, he's interested in having people, because many times I asked him why are, you know,

you know that I'm writing a book about this. I mean, so many times I said it both to him and Gary. And they were like, yeah. you know, Gary's okay with it, and he was okay with it too. And so I was like, okay, you know, they're okay with it. And honestly, I thought maybe 10 people would read the book. I didn't think it was going to correspond with this, but correspond with what the government is doing right now.

And so, you know, well, that's the thing, AJ, is I wrote the book with recognizing that possibly this is, and I write it in the book. You do? Look, this is possibly misinfo. In the first paragraph, I say, whatever you read about this is not what it is. Like the first paragraph,

I say, what you're going to be subjected to in media is not truly what this phenomenon is about, because there's so much misinformation. I want to ask you about that. First is the spectacle of, so he goes through the metal detector. We've all done that. We've all been stopped. We've all had our bags look through.

But you said an alarm went off that it was unusual. Yeah. That spectacle to me is, it's suspicious. Of course. It's almost like Tyler saying, I'm going to prove to you that this is weird. The metal's going to go off, you know it's real metal, you're going to hear an alarm. You've never heard before. That's right.

You're going to be taken to a room. You never did that before. And through all of that, it's going to be fine. That's, I mean, that's really selling it. Yeah, but you have to understand that that that's what. he told me he wanted to do. Yes. Was he wanted to convince me that it was real.

Well, that won't convince me that it's real. No, but it convinces you that Tyler's real, though. I was already convinced of that. But yeah, you're right. I mean, it's going to convince the people who read the book. Yes. Yeah. But he is real.

He is real. Avard, I mean, you hate to name names, so I don't want to put you on the spot. But you have written that there is an active disinformation. campaign. Yeah. Where do you stand on like Richard Doty? Well, he's, he's transparent about being an active disinformation campaign. No, hold on.

Let me push back on that. Okay. He's transparent that he was active. Yeah. And now he's since come around and said, well, most of what I told Benowitz was true. I was just, like, he's, he's been muddying the waters now for 50, 60, 50 years. Yeah, yeah. where now he's saying most of it was true and

I don't know if we can believe what he says though that's what I mean is who do we who do we believe so do we have any modern doties coming out of I mean we have a lot of Air Force Intelligence guys at Congress yeah yeah I think we need to be really so okay listen people you're are you addressing the folks now yeah okay go for it I listen okay I've been super clear in my books you have that disinformation. Like, so is Jacques, by the way.

Right? Yeah. So it's the 70s. Yeah, yeah. He even calls, like, one of his books, messengers of deception, right? So, okay. So the thing about the problem with a government-backed disclosure is that the problem with it,

is that first and foremost is that you'll get, so my work, is, I would say, is parallel to that development. It was totally autonomous, organically motivated, right, based on what I saw. And then once I got, once I recognized that, and this was after 2017, the Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helene Cooper. Once, and I got phone calls from people. my book was not even published yet, but a group of people associated with this disclosure effort really wanted me to give them the names of the two scientists

in the book that hasn't been published yet. I was like, I can't do that. This was something that happened continuously for like three or four weeks. Which book was this? American Cosmic. Oh, okay. It was before it was published. Okay.

And no, I'm not going to. do that okay so they know about that no that's what i'm saying like i started to get this idea that's this is all coming down and so um all right so in each of my books i basically say be careful look what's happening but then my work gets uh appropriated not just by the disclosure advocates because i'm not I'm not really a disclosure advocate. I believe this is real and it's happening. But the way it's happening with the government, that's not my story. Okay.

And I'm telling people, be careful. But people don't read the book. They see me on a podcast. And then it gets edited certain ways and people are like, oh, my goodness, you know, she's a disclosure advocate. And I've also made it pretty clear to the disclosure advocates. many of whom I know and I'm friendly with, that I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be a part of that press conference.

I'm not going to be a congressional person. I'm not going to do any of that stuff, right? So that's what I'm trying to say here, is that this is good. This is a good time to be able to identify a narrative before it becomes authoritative. That's my position. Just exactly what Carl Jung said. But this time, we have the millennial generation,

we have our generation, who's already suspicious. We have the millennial generation, and then we have my kids' generation, right? They don't even pay attention to it. They're like, yeah, whatever, aliens exist. You know, okay, you know, tell me something new. Right. Okay, so they're not buying it.

So the people who are buying it, they shouldn't, right? But they're going to, but I don't think the majority of people are going to buy it. And so, yeah, it's real, but it's not what is, it's just like Christianity, right? So Christianity is really vibrant and amazing in its incipient form. And then it becomes institutionalized and changes. okay there's the there's a core that you could get to but boy do you have to study to get to it and boy do you have to unlearn a lot of stuff in order to get to it but it's still there and it's still in some of the institutional forms of it but is buried in there i think the same thing is

happening with the with the UFO narrative that's being spun right now because why is it all military stuff really yeah so that was what my second book was about and that's why in my second book I I went back and talked a lot about indigenous ideas of you know basically I went back to the experiencers and I said what do they have to say right and then what does history have to say and then I went back to Plato's Allegory the Cave simulation hypothesis and I was like okay it really looks like this is that and that's what we have to be careful for why does simulation hypothesis play into your warning because

See, the whole, so coming into contact with a very powerful group of people that are, of which this new belief system is being advocated, who are advocating for this belief system. When I say very powerful, I'm talking very powerful. So all of the, when I say we're living in a new environment and architecture of digital technology that my kids just take for granted because they've been born into it. You and I know the difference, okay? And even millennials know the difference, okay?

So that architecture now is propaganda everywhere, everywhere. Whether we want, and by the way, American Cosmic was a lot about propaganda. It was. And how we are inundated by this. And whether we like it or not, it's going to influence us. So that's exactly what the allegory of the cave is about. Plato's Allegory the Cave. So when I, after American Cosmic was published, there were other people who showed up who were just as like insider as Tyler, but worked for a different, they were

different. And they were, you know, they kind of gave me an insight into the extent of this control. And that was really depressing. I was so depressed. Why? Why is that depressing? You were surprised? Well, I'd always known about it on an abstract level that we were, you know, that propaganda kind of, you know, taught us about the food groups and, you know, everything pretty much, you know, that was propaganda. And we could get out of it by thinking about it, right? We can just use our critical faculties. No, not anymore. Our critical faculties are even being performed now. They are. You know, seriously. And so just thinking is not a form of resistance anymore. You have got to, so that's when I became very, because it used to be my last kind of

holdout. I could teach critical thinking to my kids, to my students, and that will help them in this maze of disinformation that they're going to live in. No, that's not going to be the superpower anymore. Let me, let's use one of your anecdotes to help people understand this more, because we talked about the allegory of the cave, and my audience knows what that is. I think you tend to believe the public is generally still in the cave, right? This is the rally we're seeing our shadows on the wall. Okay, yeah, okay. So we could use an anecdote,

but I want to say that I think that I have hope now because Disclosure Day came out, and nobody bought it. Nobody bought it. And that gives me hope that, oh, and also the books that are being sold, the UFO books in that category, William Cooper's

Behold of a pale horse is one of the top ones. And I'm thinking, you know, because that's, you know, that is basically showing you everything. You know, even if he gets some things wrong, like, you know, facts and stuff. Yeah, the spirit of it is right.

And so that to me is hope. When I see that people are actually, they're not buying the government-sponsored books. No, they're not. And they're going for the stuff that's old but good, right? Like the Bill Cooper thing. Now, if the viewers go out and read that, be careful because there are things that are not entirely factually correct,

but the spirit of it is right. It is, and a lot of his predictions came true. And he said he was going to be killed by the government, and he kind of was. Yeah. It kind of was. But you wanted to go to an anecdote. I did.

And your anecdote may not be related to the cave, but it's related to being manipulated by propaganda, but not even really being aware of it, is a story you told about talking to parents, maybe it was talking to the sisters, kids on their phones who were kind of bullying each other on their phones. Do you remember that story? Yeah, it's really sad.

Please tell it. Yeah, okay, so I'm at a conference, and it's a conference for Catholic teachers and Catholic people, parents, and so forth. It's out of high school. but a monastery. So, okay, so I'm there, and all of us professors and so forth, we give our, you know, talks and so forth. And so I gave a rundown of the developmental stages of the brains of kids.

And when, if they receive social media via their phones at certain stages, what this does to their brains, okay? And so afterwards, there was a break. And some teachers came up to me, and they were very unhappy. They were like shell-shocked. And so one of them said, I really need to talk with you. And I was like, okay. So a bunch of teachers kind of surrounded me. And they said, we need some help.

Like, we need, like, you know, this is a conference where a lot of the talks were actually really intellectual and stuff, that wasn't helpful. That wasn't helpful. And so I kind of broke with that and talked to the teachers. And they wanted me to help them. They wanted me to intervene. And they said, we can't do anything because we have students who are, we have a lot of suicidal students because they're being bullied on social media. And we try to tell their parents, the parents of the kids who are the bullies, and the parents are on social media too. So they don't even see the problem. Well, you said take away their phones. That's right. And they said, we can't do that. Yeah. They can't take away their phones. So a lot of schools will have, they don't have the policy

where, you know, the kids have their phones in the classroom. No good. I think that's terrible. I just can't understand why you would do that. They have their phones 24-7 then, right? Because their parents can't push back because generally they're just trying to make ends meet, you know? So there's no, it's not like I'm blaming anybody. But we definitely need. regulation in schools, you know? So yeah, so there was really a sad, that was really sad to see. And, you know, I don't allow technology in my classroom unless the person needs it for whatever ability they have. And the students, a lot of the students have issues with that. Like it's really hard for them just to go the 50 minutes or the hour and 15 minutes, just that time to kind of like,

it's hard for them to concentrate. No, they can't do it. I mean, the dopamine turns off. So it's like withdrawal. So it was like, you said, well, what do the parents have to say about it? And the parent, and they said, we talked to the parents, they don't understand. They do not understand, because they're within the same cave. Right. Their millennial parents are in the same cave. Yeah. And they, they can't get out of it. They can't even help their kids get out of it. So that's kind of what I felt by propaganda. It's like, if you're, if you're not really studying and looking beyond the mainstream narrative. you might be someone to say,

I can't be fooled by propaganda. It's like you don't know if you are or not. That's right. Because you're in the cave. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. And what I showed in American Cosmic, and some of my papers are on academia,

they're just the straight research that shows this. And it's that when we are subject to this stuff, it goes into our brain. It bypasses our critical faculty of discerning whether it's real or not. We can't even tell anymore, by the way. And so it goes into parts of our brain that then we believe it's real. So our bodies act as if it's real.

For all intent and purposes, it's real to us. Yeah. I have faith in Gen Z. I'm a Gen Z fan. Millennials, not so much. I think it's turning around. Because you're seeing a lot more people going back to religion. Oh, for sure.

Gen Z, yeah. Yeah. And you're seeing younger parents now saying, I'm not letting my kids have a phone in school. That's right. Didn't you have, how about the chess club story is interesting? That's pertinent to here. Yeah, okay, so the young student who came about the chess, yeah, okay, this is really very hopeful.

It's a touching story. Yeah. So, you know, I was really, you know, I get upset about this stuff to tell you the truth. And I was, you know, thinking, what could I possibly do to, like, get the kids off their phones? like, what could I do? And I thought, I need to create something like a space for them. So I thought maybe chess. My kids play chess, by the way.

And so I was like, but that was just a thought I had. Well, a week later, a student shows up, asks if he can meet with me in my office hour. And he's not in my major. And he said that he had played my daughter in chess and that she had won him. And so he thought, he thought then that her mom's a professor here, she would be the person to create this chess club at the university. And so this is an incredible young student who created the chess club. All the kids came.

We had all these tournaments and they were able to hang out. They know, by the way, this group of students, these young people now, they know there's an issue. He specifically said, my generation, we can't even be together and talk. to each other. We can't do that. And I want to stop that. I want to try to stop that. And so he asked me to help him out with that. And I thought it was a weird coincidence that I had just thought to myself chess. So of course, I was all on that. So now we do have this thriving chess club at my university. No phones there, right? Well, if they have phones, they're not using them. Right. They're probably in their pockets. And it fills me with so much hope. And like, I will do it 100 percent. Like, yeah.

I think you said if there's a leading candidate for the Antichrist, it would be social media? I did. Yeah, that was in response to Peter Thiel's excellent talk on the Antichrist. So he's been talking about the Antichrist and you can find this online. So you can, you know, listen to him and talk about it. He's on a road tour. He did a road tour at that talk. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So he's the Antichrist guy. And I think it's cool because, you know, he's kind of. kind of uplifting that conversation, right? He's bringing some credibility to it. He's a, you know,

a smart guy who's talking about this that has been a stigmatized topic. And so, of course, I took notice. And so I listened to him. I attended a conference that he, where he gave a talk on the Antichrist. And I was thinking, you know, I was really surprised because, you know, he's the founders fund. Like he's the guy who funded the social media. Yes. The big social media we have. And so it occurred to me that he's missing something really important. And that is that AI superpowered social media, but even social media without AI is what is

stopping young people from having the capacity to have what we call like this interior life, which is really important because it's actually part of. our body as part of our physical makeup, all human beings are born with the capacity to have this this, it's called a spiritual sense, a capacity for this. But we're taking it away. We're making it inaccessible to young people now because it changes their brain chemistry. So they're no longer taught, and by the way, lots of people are not taught this, but we all have this capacity. That's what religion is for. And so I thought, you know, the Antichrist in the Book of Revelation is actually being, there's the false prophet that actually powers the Antichrist. Well, it seems like that something

that's powering like the Antichrist would be like this social media because it's eradicating that part of what makes a person spiritual. It's just getting rid of it, right? I think it's doing that physically. It's physically doing that. Physically destroying your right. Yeah, yeah. So I was surprised that he didn't consider that because he was reading the same, I was reading the same books he was reading. I think it's Howard Benson, and I might get his first name wrong, the Lord of the World, which is about the Antichrist. And so basically, he's writing in the early 20th century, and he's talking about what's going to happen when the end times come. And he basically says, what's going to happen is that we're going to have a infrastructure powered by technology that's

going to eradicate the knowledge of the spiritual sense. It's going to just get rid of it. you won't even know you have it. And I'm thinking, that's it. Right. And so I wrote a commentary to kind of, and he and I had the same, one of the same professors, by the way, which is Renee Gerard.

So I was not just like, come on, Mr. Teal, you would have known this. So I kind of pointed it out. And just like the first two chapters of the others, where I point out that, if I were to say the, there's an Antichrist, I would say that social media is a contender for that,

like powered by AI, because it's eradicating the spiritual sense. I tend to agree there's a few ironies with Peter's talk. I think one of his contenders for the Antichrist was an over-regulated system and a lack of privacy from the guy who helped found Palantir. Is an interesting irony. So it was like Girard's work didn't make it into his talk. Was Gerard the one who talked about post-biological? No, no, that's Stephen Dick, who's a NASA.

Yeah, he was a NASA historian for many, many years, and founder of Astrobiology, one of the founders, co-founder. Super amazing, intelligent person. Yes. Have you spoken to Peter about your disagreement? Okay. Because you've done a heretic on a couple of times, haven't you? I've been invited a couple times.

I went the one time. Okay. So I have, I've met Peter. Okay. And I did ask him about that. And I asked him about Gerard. He's a very intelligent person and very, obviously, he's who he is. I, you know.

But I did ask him about that. And? Well, he, he's a huge fan of Girard. But it didn't make an, I haven't read. it in his posted talks. I haven't read him draw on Girard and the scapegoat mechanism in his Antichrist talks. He may have, though, he may have integrated that. It just wasn't in the talk that I saw. Okay. Well, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I'd like to talk a little bit more about memetic theory and post-biology, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're right back.

Well, let's start. We can start with your questions. You have notes? Oh, wow. Yeah, I do. Okay. Okay. All right. Take it away. Okay. All right.

I forgot, I can't move this thing up. No. Okay. Well, you can't, you have to stand. Oh. If you want to get closer, it'll drag. Okay. I'm good.

I'm good. Okay. I was very interested in the podcast you did about the man who sees the future. There's a few. So, Amadeus DeNock. That's right. Okay. That's right.

And what really interested me was not just that he could see the future, but that he, described the evolution of a spiritual sense. So can you say a bit about that? About what? About the spiritual sense and what he saw. Dinoch, so that story is George Pahatis, I think, comes from, who is a Greek academic.

So the Amadeus Deiak story is not true, but George's point was that mankind kind is evolving toward a consciousness, sort of a unified consciousness, is our next stage of evolution, is what Pajas was getting at. Is that kind of what you mean? Yeah, but he also said that part of the reason we make it and we don't kill ourselves is because of the development of the spiritual sense. Right. Right. So which we talked about before the break. We talked about that and how social media could influence that in a negative way. Yes. So, what I did once I was like horrified by how we're so conditioned by propaganda and so forth,

I decided that to go back to visionary literature of the Catholic tradition and look at the people who got it right, okay, who kind of predicted stuff that actually came true because I thought that would be really interesting. And it was quite a journey. So this is what the others is mostly about is this journey where this idea of the spiritual sense. So your guy, right, isn't the only one who describes this. So you can see this also in the literature of this priest named Teilhard Des Chardin. And he lived in the early 20th century. So he was born, I think, in 1880. And so he was actually part of the Russian Cosmic scene. So he had a lot of friends who were Russian. And And what's really interesting about him is that first he predicted that our time, the early 21st century, would be a time when human beings are going to change in a way that he described.

He believed in evolution. So his work, by the way, was suppressed, not suppressed, but yeah. I mean, it was basically the Catholic Church told him not to talk about this stuff. So they liked, he was a paleontologist. So they liked his science, his science on rocks and stuff like that, it's geological work. But they didn't want him to talk about what he thought was going to happen, like his visions of what he thought was going to happen. Wasn't he a daily mass guy? Yeah, he was a completely very devout Catholic.

So he was really devastated when the Catholic Church told him not to do this. I was going to ask you that to be admonished by the church must have been devastating. It was very devastating. And he was really upset about it. And we could talk about that. Please. Yeah. Well, I'll talk about it after I say what he was actually what he saw. So he was a really devout

person and he always had been from a child. Okay. And what's really interesting about him, well, there are so many things that are interesting about him. But one of them is that everything that he wrote about in the early 20th century, he believed he saw through his spiritual sense. He believed in this physical sense that he had. And he said it was a sense, literally like our senses like hearing or sight. So you and I can see what's on this table, right? To him, his spiritual sense was that obvious. And I'd been through a lot of his work, right? I'd read like everything. And what I noticed was that he would use the word astonish only when he was talking about how he was astonished that other people didn't have this sense.

So he felt like dissent was going to evolve. He thought it was going to evolve. Okay. So what was his vision? So some people have heard of this thing called the Neuessphere. So the Neuessphere is something that a lot of people in tech and AI talk about. Yes. It's, I mean, it looks really like the Internet and Supercharged Internet.

But this is what he saw. So he was, he went to the war. He was French and he went to World War I and he worked on the front and he helped people who were being, who were injured. He helped bring them to the medical person. Okay. So his job was to help get them on the stretcher and then to bring them to. Well, what he saw during this devastating war was he said he saw humankind's soul. All right?

Well, what does that mean? Human kind of soul. He said that there was something about the environment of war that was so incredibly. charged that helped him identify, like through a spiritual sense, humanity's future. And he called it the newest fear. Okay, he said, humankind is evolving toward what he called, like this omega point, this new sphere.

New sphere. So that's like a sphere of thought where all have this a unified thought. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he saw, he saw humanity merge into. to through their basic cognition.

Like he called it cerebration. And what it was was there's the biosphere, right? So this is going to be above the biosphere. And it's going to be a space that humanity is going to connect with each other through, like a networked mind. It's like a global brain. So he was projecting a mass global brain that human beings were going to be a part of. and we were going to share insights, share art, share entertainment, have economic things happen

in this sphere. This is the newest fear. He didn't coin the term, by the way, or he may have coined it. I actually don't know exactly who coined it. But it was being utilized by Russian cosmists, and he utilized it too. So he described this as the newest fear that people now talk about today. It very much looks like when the internet started to happen, you know, many years ago, I remember looking at it and thinking, this really looks like Teilhard's idea of the newest fear, you know, taking shape. And now it really looks like that. And so, you know, especially with AI and AI maybe, you know, could it be AI even? I don't know. So that's the thing. It's like when you get into these guys who are doing this projection into the 21st century, it's really interesting to kind of parse out what could it be that they're talking about. It looks very

similar to the internet, but it looks even more like, aware, self-aware. So that could be a form of like AI, perhaps, or human beings merged with AI. I don't know, but he projected that human beings were going to evolve into this. And he was Catholic, so he believed it would be, honestly, he believed that it would be apocalyptic. He thought it was going to either be really good or the end of human beings. Apocalyptic really just means to reveal what isn't known, right? It is, yeah. I'm using it in the sense of not necessarily.

It literally means to be revealed, yeah. But people utilize it today to mean like maybe an apocalyptic event would be like a catastrophic event. So it has, you know, it has that meaning also. Did Teilhard believe the newest fear you would retain individuality or is it more toward your analysis of like children's end where it's not so great? Okay, yeah. So, all right. So the childhood Zen is the book by Arthur C. Clark, who, it literally, looks like was influenced by Teilhard.

Yes. In fact, it looks like a lot of people were influenced by Teilhard. I know Kurzweil, who wrote about the singularity, talks about Teilhard as well, but secularizes it. So, you know, he did think, Teyard thought that we would retain our individuality, but still be connected. He thought it would be, he actually thought it would be good, right? That's, but there were occasions in his discussions where he also thought,

it could possibly be bad, but it would be our choice. It would be our choice. Yeah, it would be our choice. But he was a believer. So listen, what happened to him? Okay, so he couldn't not write about this. Okay? Right.

So, of course, he's writing about it. And these are circulating through, what do they call, the kind of precursor to, okay, like mimograph, you know, and people are reading it. And he's influencing lots and lots of people. He's like he's a very charismatic thinker and people love him. All right. So he's influencing people. But the Catholic Church is telling him, you know, stop, right?

We think you're crazy. You know, what you're talking about makes no sense to us. They now like him, by the way, and they've lifted that ban on him. But he did, he was under that for a long time. Why didn't the church like it? I think part of it was that they were grappling with how to integrate the idea of evolution. because they're, you know, they believe that God created everything. So.

Because this is pre-Vatican II, or yes? Yeah, it is pre-Vatican II. But coming close? No, no. Vatican II is in 1960s. So he's writing in the 1920s and 30s. To me, that's pretty close. Oh, well, he dies in 55, I think.

Okay. And one of the things that's really interesting is that he obeyed the Catholic Church, you know, and he did, his friend said this. They said that he used to say, God, if I'm right, take me on resurrection day, right? Take me on the day of resurrection, which is Easter Sunday.

And he did die on Easter Sunday. He did? Yeah, yeah. That's why I don't talk about what day I'm going to die because that always comes, that always happens. Wasn't your book encounter is going to be named resurrection? I thought I read that. And you talked to your editors and changed it?

It could be. It sounds like it's something I would do. I can't remember, though. That was something I read. I thought it was interesting. So the church now is okay with his theory. Yeah, because it looks like, you know, something of that sort has happened. Yes, it does.

We do have a global brain of sorts, right? And it looks like it's just going to ramp up. Where it's going to go? that's why I think it's interesting to follow the work of these people. So it's not just him. So he influenced other people who tweaked his ideas a bit, one of whom was Marshall McLuhan, who's another guy who talks about the spiritual sense and credits his spiritual sense with his insights into technology and how technology is going to change humanity. Is McLuhan the media guy? Yeah, the media is the message guy. Oh, so he's a propaganda guy.

Yes, he's a propaganda guy. Yeah, he's fascinating, really interesting work, way ahead of his time. You know, he will think how ahead of his time Tayyar is, right? Right. So that's why I say when you're ahead of your time, you're ahead of your time. No one's going to know that, right? And so you're going to be misunderstood and it's a bummer, right? It's a bummer. Boy, I wish that he would know what happened since he died, you know, Teyardt. Even McLuhan, like McLuhan has some amazing things. So these guys, they're Catholic, and they're looking at the 21st century. Each of them has an idea that human beings are going to shift into something completely different. Taylor thinks it's kind of like a singularity type thing, like a global mind, but he sees that as spiritual. He calls it the omega point.

And Marshall McLuhan doesn't really have that idea, but he definitely thinks that it's, well, he's hopeful, right, being Catholic. But he also is apocalyptic in the sense that it could go wrong, you know, but he's hoping that it doesn't go wrong. But he sees it as technology shifting human perception, kind of like Socrates said it would, right? So he's Socratic in that way. That's right, whether it's writing or AI. Yeah, that's right.

Technology is always going to change us physically. Which it was one of these thinkers talking about technology who said, the Prince of our world will certainly be a great electrical engineer. That's right, yeah. Forget who it was, have said that. I don't know.

Was it McLuhan? It was one of those guys talking about technology. Talk a little bit about childhood's hand and why Arthur C. Clark went the dark way. Yeah, okay, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. Well, I mean, others is probably your darkest book, I would think.

I think so. So, I mean, at some point you went from sort of academic documentarian to believer, to now you're a herald. Now you're warning us. Well, I guess I felt like the other books didn't warn enough because people, you know what I mean? I was like, listen, this is, you know, this is going, this is happening. This is happening. Let's pay attention.

Yeah. Yeah, this is kind of a scary book. I have to admit it. It is. So Arthur C. Clark went dark. Yeah. He may have always been dark. I don't know. Let's talk about him. Yeah. Let's talk about him. Okay, so Arthur C. Clark,

brilliant guy, right? One of these, okay, so another person who lived in the early 20th century, like throughout the century died in the 2000s, I think, like 2007 maybe. Anyway, brilliant thinker started out not just writing about super interested in space travel. Okay, So he was part of the British interplanetary, I think it's called Society. The BIS, yeah. Yeah. And so those guys were interesting. So in order to do this book, I had to go back and read about those guys.

And this is in the early 20th century when space travel is weird. Yes. People think people who are interested in space travel, they think they're weird. Okay. So now we just think it's cool. Yeah, it's pre-Sputnik. That's right. A child of Zed was priest-buttnik.

Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so Arthur C. Clark is, writing about, like writing about space travel and, you know, he's not doing sci-fi yet. He's kind of just doing writing for people, lay people, like trying to get them to on board with everyone, we're going to have a pretty cool future if we can like just get, you know, space fairing and this kind of stuff, right? And what he's doing is, it's almost like a laboratory. Like he and the other science fiction people, they're not, they begin to write science fiction.

They're writing it with the understanding. that what they're writing is going to happen. Like, they're going to help make it happen by writing about it. It's really interesting. I didn't know that they were so conscious about what the intentional, right, about what they were doing. So I start with him there. In my opinion, he's very influenced by Teilhard's work of the global brain and the end of humanity in a way, you know. So he's, so, but he doesn't credit him in childhood's end.

He does talk about him in his later work. Like in the 2000s, he actually writes a lot about Teilhard. But he doesn't credit him early. So I can't honestly say that he was influenced by him if he's not crediting him. But how could he not be? Because childhood's end is about a net, like an overmind, like a global brain. And it's being ushered in by these beings, right, that look really curious. I'm not going to step on your punchline.

I know the reveal in the story. But I don't want to tell people if they haven't read it. You don't, no one's going to read it. Okay. We have to tell them because it gets into retrocausality, which is so interesting. It does. It does. Yeah.

So Clark was so smart, right? Okay. Yeah. Or we'll tell the story. All right. So we'll start with the premise of childhood Zen? Yes. Okay.

So the premise is that humans are hanging out, right? And then all of a sudden. Well, we're fighting with each other. The normal things that humans do. That we do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's in the future, okay? So is it our time? Our time? You know, maybe. Like, you know, Teard was, and Marshall McLuhan, well, Marshall McLuhan was very clear. We're talking like 21st century. This new human, he called it the ultra-human. Tejard called it the ultra-human. No, Tahrer called it the ultra-human. Marshall McLuhan called it the superterrestrial, right? John Keel called it the ultra-terrestrial.

That's right, that's right. But what is Clark call it? Okay, Clark calls them humans, but what's going to happen to them? Okay, so what happens is that all over, you see in the sky, you see like an alien invasion, right? So these ships come around in the sky, and they stay there for a while and freak us out. And people kind of go about their day because, you know, what do you do? you know, they're just there. We can't get rid of them. It's scary. But they're not doing anything. And it's intimidating, right? They're basically saying, we're here. Yes. So it's an intimidating

first contact. And then they're a representative contacts us, but we don't get to see them. They just talk to us. And they basically say, we mean you no harm. Oh, right. Cool. Yeah. We're here to help. That's right. We're here to help. Of course, people aren't stupid. So there are, are a lot of people who are like, no way, this is uncool, we don't like these guys. But they're there and they're saying, we're not going to reveal ourselves for 50 years, right? And people are like, why, you know? And so during that 50 years, though, they're utilized, they're there. And they're making people aware that they're going to help us and they're going to do these things. And, you know, they're going to bring some wonderful technologies to us that we could

utilize. They eliminate disease, war, poverty, hunger. It's all gone. And they're very, so, Clark makes them very aware and they're smart at using propaganda. Yes. So they use propaganda. And they say it's the best weapon. They say that it's better than any kind of bomb. It's better than anything. They said they're utilizing it.

They said that you don't even need much power. It's how you use it. You just need radio. Just need radio. Because, you know, this is being written in the 50s. That's right. So TV isn't ubiquitous yet. So the radio is the thing.

So they're utilizing radio to basically get people used to this. And then they are going to show themselves. Okay. And this is interesting for various reasons that we've talked about so far in this podcast, okay? One of which I'll get to. Okay. So what happens is that the main guy, Correllan, right, is going to show himself. And so he announces it.

He goes, I'm going to meet you all finally. You know, now you all are ready to meet me. And so millions of people all over the world are ready for this. So they were going to televise it. Hundreds of thousands of people show up. And then he shows himself. And he says, well, before he does that, he says, I'd like some children to come to me, right?

And so a boy and a girl go, they walk over to him. And as soon as they get to where he is and nobody sees him yet, the girl and the boy flip up into, like they start to float. So he has this kind of gravity that we've been talking about. He's got a private gravity. And that's what Arthur C. Clark calls it. He said, this being had its own private gravity, right? And so he comes out and he looks exactly like a demon.

So he's got horns, he's got scales, he looks red. You know, he looks like a demon, right? He's got the clobin hooves, the tail. That's right. Exactly like what we think of is a demon, the classical demon. And no one is really that upset except for some people. people who fame, right? Right.

You know, but only like one or two people out of like 100,000. So he's already acclimated people against religion because they got rid of religion. And they made it seem like it was, you know, not rational. You remember in the story that people in New Athens are saying these are demons and the younger people are saying you're just old and superstitious? That's right. Archaic. Archaic.

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So then we see that. that the real thing that's going to happen, though, is not he's not going to take them over. He's ushering in this, like, giant network mind that goes around the galaxy and usurps whole civilizations into it, and they become, like, networked up. And so they're targeting the human children.

So the grown-ups are literally the last human beings. The children start to show psychic powers and telepathy. Yeah, they start to show. start to become one mind. And they're speaking as one mind now, right? They are. They're not just, they speak as one mind and they act as one mind. And if you read it, the descriptions of the children, it looks terrible.

It looks like they're zombies. They don't keep their, you know, they're not into hygiene so their hair gets like matted and they have their clothes, like their parents are now afraid of them, right? And so the children literally get usurped into this network. and those people that they're the last humans. So that's why it's called Childhood Zen. Yeah. Didn't they tell, it was Jan, I think is his name,

on the way back where they say, whatever you think you're going to see, it's not going to be what you think you're going to see. Yeah. And he has to force himself. He wants to look away but can't because... Yeah. The children are so horrifying to watch.

They're worse than corpses. Yeah. They don't even seem like they have any kind of like they're blank. And then what happens? What's the happy ending to that? Well, it's a bad ending. Yes. So the ending is the end of humanity, the end of Earth and these beings, or what we think is like the end of Earth. It could very well just be that Earth changes, but humanity is completely gone.

Now, the children absorb all the energy from the Earth or something like that, right? Yeah. It's a little, for me, I should read it again. But it's the end. It is the end. What I couldn't get from the story was what Arthur C. Clark was trying to convey. Oh, okay. So this is what I noticed was that in a lot of not just science fiction, but media, that portray this topic of alien contact with us,

often it replaces religion or completely discredits religion. Now, I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist and say, there's a bunch of these guys are doing this. Maybe that's true, but that's just a fact. So if you look at all of this, if you look at this, if you spend time reading this history, you know, the history of sci-fi and also what we see in the media, even with Star Wars, right? You see real, we see traditional religion.

that get usurped under this new form, what I call this new form of religion, which is belief in extraterrestrials replacing, because the belief in God is superstitious. That's how it's made out to be. Whereas the belief in aliens, of course, that makes perfect sense, right? So that's a, there's that is happening. You can see it. I'm not making it up.

Go and read these things. you'll see it. Case and point, like with Star Wars, the Last Jedi, and then the one before that, I can't remember, the Force Awakens, I think. In these two movies, you have the very beginning of Western Christianity, which is in, you know, not in Rome, but you see it in Ireland in this place called Skellig Michael,

which is these really beautiful rocks off the coast of Ireland. And this is where monks lived in the fifth century, no, the 500, so it was pretty early on in Christianity, and they're going to, you know, spread Christianity, but they're at this place. That's where Luke Skywalker is the, that's where he trains Jedi's.

That's where Jedi's are trained. That's where they filmed was like the heart of Western Christianity is now the heart of the Jedi religion, and that is a religion now, by the way. The Jedi religion is a religion. Sure. So, you know, when you see this, you can't unsee this. You start to, like, look at the media.

You're like, wow, okay, it's happening there, too. And this is not anything I'm making up. Do I say it's on purpose? I don't know if it's on purpose, is it? But it's definitely something that's, it's like a snowball effect. It's definitely something that's progressing. Do you think the people, whoever they are in charge, like that analogy, maybe it's not an analogy,

that it's becoming a religion? Do you think they want that to be a religion? I do. Religion is very powerful. It's the most powerful thing, you know? Like people in the name of religion will die for religion. That's true. It is very powerful.

So, yeah, I think so. Sure. Don't create a belief, create a whole belief system. But they're controlling the system. They're writing the Bible. Yeah. I don't know if that's great. I don't know if that's great for us.

Okay, I'll tell you why I don't think it's great. I have a specific reason. And it has to do with how, when you look at Marshall McLuhan and you look at Teilhard's work, they keep the spiritual sense. And in fact, if you read their work, you cannot get away from the fact that the spiritual sense worked in their lives. They see things that we don't see because of their sense. Their spiritual sense, they cultivated it. and it's a life for them, like seeing and touch and hearing is alive for us. That's absolutely absent in childhood Zen.

Totally absent. In fact, there's a scene in childhood Zen where he basically says that this is the worst part of humans, this spiritual sense, right? So it's a scene with a seance. So a seance. And this woman who is the one who's going to have the child who's going to be absorbed first into the overmind, She's the mother.

And she has a cultivated spiritual sense so that the overmind identifies her. And what happens is that they're going to definitely, like, they're going to, her offspring are going to be the ones that they're going to colonize. Right. So they're going to colonize the spiritual sense. And not just that, but he talks about it in derogatory terms. The spiritual sense is the worst thing in humans, right? mystical sense that they have. And they kind of think it's disgusting and don't like it. So yeah, so it's the spiritual sense that we're seeing again changed, right? Do we all have that spiritual

sense? Everyone is born with it. Yeah. We are. Yeah, for sure. All people are. All the religions of the world, if you look at them, they are, the traditional religions. They focus on the cultivation of this sense. Like, how do you cultivate it? well, you pray, you can fast, you live a life that cultivates things called the virtues, and you can see this in all the religious traditions, Buddhism. Like, you know, meditation, what are they doing? They're cultivating this sense, right? And so all the religious traditions knew about this and cultivated it for the benefit of the social group,

all of them. And so, yeah, we don't want to get rid of that. And that would be, that would change human beings. Well, this is another argument for social media being the Antichrist is because that's blocking that. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that, you know, all the tech bros are into fasting and meditation.

And it's all these like monastic rituals that they're doing. I don't know if they know they're doing that. That you're basically monks. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Who was it who talked about religion being a way to protect us from violence? Okay, so this is René Girard. René Girard is a French theorist who is contemporary with us.

He died only recently, actually. And so he was an atheist or agnostic. He wasn't religious at all. At first. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so he went through reading the traditions of the Bible, actually,

reading the Hebrew scriptures and then the New Testament. And through that, he recognized that there was a mechanism at work and that this was the mechanism of nonviolence. And he saw this, because, you know, if you do read the Bible, you notice that there are like sacrifices of like children and stuff. You're like, oh, my goodness, you know, what's up with that, right? Does God require that? And so what you see, though, is that the Hebrew Bible, the Hebrew scriptures are pushing back, against that pushing back against that you have Abraham you know the push back against his sacrifice of his son and then when you get to that's right but yeah been the first one where a sacrifice is stopped yeah by an angel a messenger of

God right and so so so then you know so you have to understand that in history a lot of culture so he so sacrifices at the basis for a lot of cultures like, you know, human sacrifice and then animal sacrifice. And, you know, all right, that said, he sees Christianity as an answer to that type of violence. It's a specific type of violence that he thinks is bad, is really terrible. And if you're the recipient of being bullied, if you're the recipient of group violence of being canceled today, you know, you know that this is a bummer experience. Yes. And people seem to be. to enjoy piling on. So there's like an enjoyment that people get from it, which I think is pretty

sick, frankly. But, you know, people who do that, shame on you for doing that. Just stop doing that. You know, life will be better for everyone if you just don't do that kind of thing. I think we've turned a corner on a lot of that. Was Gerard with the, was he the one with the scapegoop theory? Yes, so this is the theory of the scapegoat. So what he came to understand was that this type of violence was at the basis of Christianity. And Christianity was the first, so he became Christian because of it, okay? So long story short, he converted and became super Christian. And then all of his writing was about what he called the scapegoat mechanism

and how it functioned in culture. And he said that most religion, because people feel they'll kill, so his idea was this, was that a society tends to become violent and in order to resolve that violence, they identify a scapegoat. And then they get rid of the scapegoat. The violence goes away for a while, but then the whole cycle repeats again. But they feel really guilty about killing that scapegoat, and that's where religion comes in. So religion comes in as a way to deceive people into thinking it was a necessary, a justified violent act.

I was surprised to learn that, you know, Romans didn't consider themselves to be people who sacrificed humans. They looked at like people, other cultures, and they say, those people are horrible because they kill people, like they sacrifice people. We don't do that. But they did do that. Of course. So the gladiator games were literally religious events, right, to their gods and goddesses. That's what we don't understand that.

We're like, those were pretty weird events that they had, right, with the gladiators and so forth. Well, they were religious events, and they would invoke whatever God or Goddess, you know, at the time they were invoking Roman God or Goddess. And they would take people that were vulnerable, like prison. of war or gladiators and they would dress them up as the gods and then they would kill them they would reenact their killing and this you could see even as text did this okay with i mean these cultures didn't know each other so this shows that there's like this template to human sacrifice oh goes on forever

i mean hitler did the same thing scapegoating is another form of propaganda that's right that's right it's a terrible propaganda so that's what gerard identified at the basis of human cultures that aren't self-aware are like this. Well, Christianity came along to challenge it, to basically say, this is what he believed. Christianity came along to basically say, stop doing that, right? This is how you cannot do it.

Jesus will be the last sacrifice. You won't have to do it anymore, right? And so that's what it became. It fought back. That's why it fought back in Rome. So some of the early Christians who fought back were like Perpetua, who was a woman from Carthage, 20 years old.

or so, 21. And she refused. She was, you know, going to be put into the gladiard games, dressed up as series. I think that was the goddess. And she refused. She said, I'm not dressing up. You can kill me. I don't care. I'm dying for Jesus. But I am not going to be dressed up as your goddess. And she refused. And that went around like wildfire because people didn't like Rome. Rome was doing this all over the place, right? So they pushed back. And Christianity became a resistance movement to the empire's violence. About what year was perpetual? Because we can read her diary from prison. That's right. Yes, you can. So I think she was like 200, 203. Oh, okay. Rome was already quite a mess. So I was wondering if it was first century, if it was after the sack of Jerusalem.

It was after the second. Yeah, it was after that, after that. Her diary is very touching. It's very sad. Yeah. So she writes, so this is the first document that we have by a Christian woman. and she writes about her own impending death. And just as she's just about to go into, to be killed in the game, her friends take over and write the diary. Oh, okay. So it's a partial autobiography and partial biography with parts of it that are what we call hagiographic,

like what you'd call poetic license, right? But it was real. It's actually a fact that she was. killed. For sure. And that her resistance became the Christian resistance, right? Yeah, I mean, her diary is very touching. It's short. Everyone should read it. It ends with the word amen. Yeah. How does memetic theory work? That was new to me to learn about that. Okay. And I think it might be, it might be onto something. Yes, yes. So this is the idea. And this is known by lots and lots of people who research, like human development and so forth. You know, monkey see, monkey do? Like,

human beings mimic in order to learn we first mimic right in order to learn top speech we mimic and stuff so it's a kind of a built-in way in which human beings are right we're built that way what happens though is that um it it becomes destructive when we want when we want something that another person has and we're willing to kill that person for it right and but we have to understand that the only reason we want what they have is because they want it. So in a sense, we're mimicking their want. And you can really see this in social media right now. So the likes, so if you go to, and by the way, a lot of those likes are bots, okay?

But that's a scary thing. Like we can now create the scapegoat mechanism and mimetic theory. So this idea that we mimic each other's desires. So let's take, you know, let's take a YouTube channel. right? Okay, so this YouTube channel has, I don't know, a couple million subscribers, and we're like, that person must, we must listen to that person because they have so many subscribers, right? But what if, like, most of those subscribers are not real? So that's how it can be generated. So we can have our own tastes generated. Look at, you know, I'm a woman,

I am subject to wanting nice things like purses, nice purses and stuff, right? And I know that. So I'm going along, doing my work and so forth, and ads pop up, Gucci bag or this and that. And I'm like, I don't want that bag, all right? But then I do want it. But you do want it. Yes, I do. But what I have to do is I have to wait it out. So I'm being manipulated by everyone else wanting that bad.

Wait two years and that bag will look ridiculous to you, right? It really will. You'll have the bag and I'm like, why did I even buy that bag? It's weird looking, right? And so your desire is cultivated, it's generated, is constructed, is created, and it's created through clicks and likes and so forth. My wife has bags that might, you know, more than cars, some of them. That's right.

What's a matter with you? Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't want to put, I mean, look, men have car, like, you know, everybody has their thing. So I'm not going to judge. Yeah, I'm not going to judge it. I'm not throwing stones. I'm just being like, yeah, I have the bag, right?

No, I'm glad you said that because it's kind of universal. We all kind of do it. But we have to understand that we do it. Yes. And when we can understand it, we can, because, you know, we will be enslaved by this. If we allow our, just, you know, we're a slave to our desires. But if we can, you can wait out the desire, and that's all it takes.

It just takes like three weeks or something. Sure, but most people don't. Don't we need all people to do this? for it to work? Yeah, I think we need to get critical mass. I don't know if we need all people to do it.

Critical mass. Critical mass. Yeah. So Gerard then says, how, you know, what do we do? If human beings are wired this way, we're wired to hurt each other, we're wired for violence,

you know, what can we possibly do? And that's where he says, that's where you have to examine yourself. That's what Socrates said, the examined life. You must, if you want this world to change, you must change. You must do this.

And if you don't, you know, if you say, well, no one else is going to do it, you know, okay, then that's the world we have. That's the world we live in. Oh, we all do that. Why should I make that sacrifice? No one else is going to do it. Yep. Or just, you know, you could try.

You can start trying, and then your trying gets into the ability to resist. It's hard to. It's hard to do that. Do you agree with Jacques-fil-A about the UFO phenomena being, subjective and created by our culture and being maybe more of a non-nuts and bolts phenomenon? Okay, so Jacques, I don't think he believes that it's created by our culture. I think that he believes, this is what, just, you know, from knowing him a bit. Sure.

Now, his idea of what it possibly could be, or his theory about it changes, right? So I've seen it change. Sure. But if he wasn't nuts and bolts, he's way more nuts and bolts now than he used to be, by the way. So he was definitely not nuts and bolts for a long time. But I think he thinks that there's something beyond the projector. Something beyond that. Oh, he thinks it's something.

Yeah. He's described it as a control system. Yeah, a control mechanism. And he doesn't know. That's the thing. He wants to find out. But he's, you know, studied it enough to identify its characteristics. And that's why he wrote Messengers of Deception.

He said this is kind of a deceptive phenomenon. So speculate. Who's behind that and why? Speculate? Yeah. Wow. I mean, it was pie plates and nuts and bolts and saucers and now it's orbs. Yeah, yeah.

And who knows what it's going to be next? That's right. That's right. I mean, you know, I talk to Chris Bledsoe, you may know Chris. I know, I know Chris. He can summon orbs. Yeah. And I wouldn't call myself a fanatic believer.

I'm a skeptical believer. And I wouldn't think anyone can summon orbs, but I've seen it on video. My brother went out to the yard with him and they summoned orbs. And I asked Chris, I said, anyone do this? He said, anyone can do this and nobody should do this.

Like, he doesn't think it's a good idea. Is he talking to something real? Okay, so, all right. So, yeah, in order to talk about this, this is another thing that I present. in the others is I basically say, now that we know that there is something, like how do we deal with it? And I said, I think the history of religions gives us some frameworks for this. Because if these things are deceptive, which it looks like they are, and if you do summon them regularly

and they're in your life, your life's going to be pretty weird and not in some fun ways. Okay. And so if that's the case, then they look like what we've talked about in the religious traditions before we just have different names for them or we haven't even named them yet but what kinds of protocols do those traditions give you to deal with these well in buddhism they might if you meditate a lot they might come into your life and you just ignore them because that's not the goal that's not the goal that you have a spiritual goal in buddhist meditation and that's not it so just ignore it all right so there's that um within i've talked about this before in the catholic tradition uh jd vamps You know, I said this publicly, you know, he believes that this phenomenon is what he called

kind of like demons. And I can fill in what that means. He's referencing what's called the praetor natural. So it's not supernatural. It's not from God. It's not natural, right? We can agree that it's pretty weird. It's this area, this great area that Catholics think the fallen angels fall into and also

angels. Like it's not a God thing, but it's like maybe kind of angelic thing or, you know, maybe something other. than angels, but we probably shouldn't deal with it. We probably shouldn't mess with it. Now, that's why I wouldn't go to like Scanwalk a ranch or, you know, the haunted places. That's why I do not want to summon things. So, um... No, hitchhiker effect seems to be a real thing. It is a real thing. Yeah. You mentioned John Alexander. I mean, his wife didn't like him being there at all.

Yeah. You know, she would wake up and there'd be stuff in the yard. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So if we already have information about that stuff, even from indigenous communities, right? Oh, yeah. They're like, what are you doing? You know, don't summon that. You know, I guess my question is, we already have information about that.

We don't, you know, we should listen to it. Yeah, you definitely see the trickster at work because I've talked to a few people from Skimwalk with John or Travis Taylor, and it's like, how come there are not that many photographs of it? And the answer is always, it's photographed when it wants to be, and we can't control it.

Sometimes it allows it. Sometimes it just doesn't. So it feels like, and Travis agreed that there is an intention here. There's an intent to deceive, but nobody knows what the purpose, what's the reason for it? What does it want with us? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I am not, look, I do this study. I've studied this stuff, right, and written books about it, yes.

But no, I can't answer that question. You don't have an opinion, a guess? Well, my opinion is that this is my personal opinion. I don't advocate it for anyone. And it's just how I deal with it. Because it resembled so closely the traditions of religion, and I happen to be religious, I'm Christian, that I look at this from that standpoint.

And I'm not going to summon something that I think is deceptive. Why would I do that? Totally agree. I'm not interested in going to Skimwalker or summoning war. Is it doing any of that. Yeah. So I'm going to focus on the spiritual sense that I have, try to cultivate it, try to help my students, try to help, you know, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to focus on that other stuff.

I think that's smart. It's just like four days ago. I had a nightmare about warbs. Wow. I woke up like, that was a message. Wow. Like doing this show maybe too long. It was pretty scary.

So if we're going to be contacted by something else, especially from another war, it's probably going to be some type of AI. It's not going to be biological. Yes, yeah, yeah. That's Stephen Dick's theory. That's Stephen Dick's theory. I agree. So let's walk Stephen Dick's theory backwards.

Could the angel visitations that we see in Ezekiel and elsewhere, could those be post-biological entities? Yeah. So remember that he's speculating, and this is his theory. So he is, his whole bibliography, by the way, he's been writing about theories of E.T. and the history of what's called the plurality of worlds, because we're not the only ones who have thought about this, right?

People from many, many years ago, thousands of years ago have thought about this. Sure. And so he's compiled this bibliography, which everybody should check out. All right. So his idea. So he says that if we take where we are at now, and he's has, this is an essay that's called the Post-Biological, Oh gosh, how can I forget what it's called?

I've read it a million times. The post-biological universe, and he's rewritten this a couple times. Okay, so it's the most recent iteration. I've covered that in the others, but it's also online in his bibliography. So the post-biological universe revisited is the most recent one. And this is what he says. Just take where we're at now and apply what he calls cultural. evolution. Okay. So where we are at now is that we are a technological civilization. All right. And

if you take our evolution and you look at it in large scales instead of scales of like, you know, thousands of years or even millions of years and you talk about like the age of the universe, he said if there was a civilization like us or close to us and they've been, they're now a million years old, he goes, what does their technology look like, right? Like look at our technology and how exponential it is just in the last five years. Indistinguishable for magic. That's right. That's right.

But it's not magic. It's technology. Right. All right. And so he says, let's just extrapolate what kind of life, what it will look like. And he wrote this in answer to the Fermi paradox, which is, you know, if there is extra trust of life, why? Where is it?

Right. And he says, we won't even recognize it because it's so far ahead of us. and it's most likely passed through AI and gotten to self-replicating technological beings that resemble deities because they can read your mind, like all the things that deities can do, right? Read your mind, disappear, appear, right? The physics that we see, well, they could do that, right? They can do anything, the private gravity we talk about.

So he suggests that post, he calls them post-biologicals because they've gone through the stage of biology. They've gotten into a technological or a biotechnological phase, and they've exceeded that. So to us, they're going to appear to be like deities. So that's his idea.

That's his theory. And I think he's right. Arthur C. Clark, late in his career, kind of got away from the mysticism, but he believed telepathy was real, and it was just technology we haven't explored it.

Yeah. So Marshall McLuhan believed that. Arthur C. Clark believe that, you know, Taird had some indication, you know, of that. And both, you know, Marshall McLuhan is an academic. Arthur C. Clark's just a super general, amazing, smart person, right? And, yeah, both of them definitely believed in telepathy and believed that it would be augmented even by technology. Technology would make it even more of a real thing. And in fact, that looks like what's happening, right?

So I have some friends who they are investors in technologies, and one of the technologies that a friend is invested in is this one that actually can read a person's mind, so can read the image in their mind, and project it onto a computer screen. And she saw this happen, and this is technology that's real, right? So we're talking about, like, I don't know if Neurrelink does this, but I do know that there is technology that can, like you can think of an image,

like she thought of her dog. And then her dog appeared on screen. Like a dog that looked like. So that is reading our minds. It's reading our brain waves, right? And so forth. So that does happen. This is just the beginning of it.

It's just the beginning. Yeah. Because she had to concentrate on her dog in that story, which makes sense to me where it becomes scary is when you no longer have agency over it. That's right. That's where it's like minority report type of thing. Yes.

that's Philip K. Dick. That's right. Who's another Arthur C. Clark kind of figure. Speaking of Philip K. Dick and Arthur C. Clark, something we touched on just a little bit with Childhood's End. In that book, when they saw the demons, they were seeing that demons were from the future. That's right. It's a cool part of the book.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So in most of the book, the author of the book, well, obviously Arthur C. Clark, but the protagonists of the book, they're having conversations about what the appearance of the demon, why it's, you know, it must have been from the past, like a cultural memory that, you know,

humankind had come into contact with these. So that was the assumption throughout most of the book. And then later you hear at the very near the end of the book, Corellon, who's the demon, basically flips it and says, no, no, that was us from the future. Basically, you were pre-membering us. Yes. It was like a pre-memory.

So it was a memory from the future. And in the others, you talk about Eric Wargo's work. I mean, it was fun to see him mentioned in there because I'm a big fan of as he's been in here. He's changed my thinking on how time works. Yes. Do you subscribe to his time loop theory? Mostly. You mostly do.

Mostly do. Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. So when you read, I love his books. So his books are really interesting because they're not only super theoretical, but they also have so many awesome examples. Yes. So they, you know, he's got these examples of things that couldn't have happened because they, they happened out of time, right? Like the thing I just told you about, about Arthur C. Clark. Sure. So he has real examples from history. Well, there's guys drawing

9-11 with planes flying into them. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So he's, he asks then why, you know, what kind of information is that? What kind of knowledge is that? And so he's talking about getting that knowledge through dreams and through, I guess it's like a hippagogic state and so forth, and getting those, and art, you know, which you're in that kind of state when you're doing art or writing and things like that. So he says that during those states of mind, these images come into our consciousness from the future because of the block universe. I think that's what he says. I don't want to get him wrong because your viewers need to read his books. because they're really good, they're really accessible,

and it will definitely blow your mind. It does. To boil down block universes, people talk about the grandfather paradox, can't go back in time. If you meet your grandfather, kill your grandfather, you're never born, blah, blah, blah.

And Eric says, that doesn't work because of the block universe. Well, why didn't I kill my grandfather? And the answer is because you didn't. Yeah. And that's it. That's the whole theory, because you didn't.

Because here you are. And that's it. So there is no other timelines, there's nothing like that. We know you didn't kill him because here you are. It's just as simple as that. And that just kind of blew my mind. And he has so many examples of it.

Yeah. Does the church have any theories or statements on time travel is not really the right word, but how time works. Arthur C. Clark and the overmind said, this is how time and space work. You just don't know it yet. This is just how it is. That's right.

That's right. So the church is pro-science, okay? even though it gets a bad rap, right? But they're open to scientific discoveries, and they're very open to that. So I would imagine that, you know, but they're doing it the way that academics do, which is in peer review, right?

So you don't just throw it as theory and say that's true. You actually have it tested, and then people have to test it again, and you have to say, okay, it's a theory, and it seems to work this way. So they're slow that way. Like, you know, they're not jumping to any kind of like fast conclusion about anything. But definitely they'd be open to that.

There is a, I'm trying to think of his name. Oh, my goodness. He's a theologian that was actually talking about some of the, oh, a Mary. And basically saying that this is a theologian writing in the early medieval time period. And he basically, his idea, and he's a very famous theologian, even though sadly I can't remember who it is. but I'll figure it out and let you know okay um welcome to middle age kid so okay yeah so all right so um he's he's basically saying Mary is what this is before the idea of the immaculate conception of Mary okay so it's not a dogma yet in the middle ages and but people are talking about it and he

said I believe that Mary is immaculately conceived because it was already preordained like you know so he's already talking about like time not being linear that this being from the beginning of time she's this way before she's even born right so yeah so it's in the catholic tradition i guess that's that's true prophecy is just is just recognition yeah yeah i have a couple of short ones before we let you go okay um you tell the story i mean everyone wants to hear about fatima oh really yeah of course everyone loves the secrets of Fatima. I'd like to, if you could tell us about Fatima, but also how in the Cedin and Bayside,

I think the church agreed that Fatima was something. Yes. Yeah. The Cedan and Bayside, no. No. Definitely not. How did they decide which was real and not? Yeah.

Okay. So the church's idea about Marian apparitions. Yes. So there aren't very many approved Marian apparitions. Right. The reason, well, first off, Do you want me to talk about Fatima? Yes.

Okay, so Fatima is Fatima, Portugal. And it's, again, it's kind of like Garibindal. So it's a mountainous region where there's a group of people, a couple hundred people in this town. And there are, by the way, a couple of angel events that happen before the Virgin Mary comes along. Okay, so there are these children. They're playing. There's three of them. And an angel appears to them.

and they're afraid, frankly, you know, what's that? And they don't even recognize really that as an angel. They're like, what is this, you know? And then it kind of talks to them and says, you need to get ready, you need to start praying. And they don't know why, but they're going to do it. And then at some point, they learned that the Virgin Mary is going to show up, right? But a question about whether or not she's the Virgin Mary arises, right? You know, who is this lady?

she shows up she looks like a doll she's beautiful and they experience kind of like a trance state while they're in by the way the animals around them do too which is really like the private gravity thing yes so the animals kind of and they're exhausted for days after she shows up right and so she shows up and she tells them to pray and do fasting and pretty much that's it right there's an indication that there's like a secret And so this drives the parish priest crazy, and people then believe because they just don't think the children are lying. And they can tell that the children are seeing something because of the way the children are looking up the same thing, like their eyes are focused on the same thing. And if you study Marian apparitions, that's a feature of them, is that a lot of times people like doctors and skeptics will do everything they can to try to get them out of the trance or to find out where their eyes are, you know,

They're looking at the same thing. No one else can see it. Sometimes other people can see it. Okay, sometimes people can see it. And so all these people show up. So it becomes like a zoo in the town. And so the priest is trying to get the kids to like chill out. You know, don't do this.

He kidnaps him. He doesn't kidnap him. But yeah, kidnaps him. Okay, takes him away so that they can't make the date that the Virgin Mary is going to show up on. And the townspeople, you know, death threat him. And they're like, let those kids go. they show up the townspeople show up some stuff happens there you know where the virgin mary's going to show up but the kids aren't there so um so there's a lot of drama then priests come from the vatican they're like

we need to figure out what the heck's going on here right and so they do you know they interview the kids and so forth and they begin to see that it does seem like you know something's going on here we don't know what but it looks like she's in you know ask the lady what she wants ask the lady what she wants the lady what her name is. They do all these things. They tell the kids, okay, the kids ask that they give the answers to the priests. So the big... About what year is this? What's that? By what year is this? Okay, this is 1917. Right. So there are, I believe, six apparitions each month on the 13th. The last one is October 13th. And I could be wrong on the six, but I don't think I am. And so at this point, though, there are lots of people who are showing up, like probably

20,000, 30,000, 60,000. And so they, the Virgin Mary tells the kids, this last, I'm going to show up, and this time it's going to be a big deal. I'm going to show you some stuff and tell that to the people, right? So they do. They tell the people and between 70,000 to 100,000 people show up, right, at this place, devastating the town, you know, I mean, but, but a lot of people see something. It's called the miracle of the sun. there's phenomena that happen it looks really UFO like right circular spinning discs and things like that and a lot of people see it some people don't see it um some people see other things uh they're they're all hanging out there all the people and then rain comes and they're all soaking wet and then what happens

is that after the miracle the sun happens everybody's super dry like completely dry and this is all photographed by people there who are, you know, there to do, they're not there to believe. They're there to document it. It's photographed. It's people from miles and miles away see something in the sky. And they're like, what's going on over there? There's some kind of solar event, right? And so people that are skeptics become believers, a lot of things happen.

And this is now known as the miracle of the sun. So it takes the church a long time to. say, you know, they have to interview the kids. The two younger kids pass away. The Virgin Mary says that they would, like they're going to be taken early. The older one, Lucia or Lucia, she becomes a nun. And she goes on to write her diary and so forth. And it's now one of the biggest pilgrimages in the world.

And so that's Fatima. What were the secrets? Okay. So that's a good question. there is continuous dialogue and debate about the secrets because the secrets, I think one of the secrets was, well, first the kids had a version. They got to see hell, which was horrific for them and traumatic. And they said that humanity really needs to like start living in a better way, right, because we were headed for a dark season. Okay. And so it's in that way, apocalyptic,

not in the Greek word sense, but in the normal sense that people use that word in. All right. So one of the secrets, though, is very debated. This is called the third secret of Fatima. And so what the children were told, you have this secret, and give it to the Holy Father and open it in 1960. Okay? Well, this was in 1917.

So everybody goes along, you know, people are doing the best they can to be good Catholics and so forth. and they go to the Fatima and so forth. 1960 comes along and the Pope doesn't read the secret, right, doesn't read it to people. So people are very upset. Like, why? What are you doing? It comes along to John Paul II. He becomes Pope.

He has the secret. And again, he's not releasing the secret. Why? And then Pope Benedict says, well, okay, this is what the secret's about. But it's probably not the secret. I don't know, AJ. This is just... This is in 2000, when it was finally released.

Yeah, and is it the secret? A lot of people don't believe it is. Well, the secret is the Holy Father escaping the burning city, climbing over the corpses of his disciples. Yeah, it's a very end-of-the-world type of... Yes. An end-of-the-cath church type of... I think the official statement was it was an interpretation of John Paul's assassination in 81.

Yeah, that was what interpretation. Well, he was a huge Marian saint. Yes. I mean, yeah, he is a saint now. He's a huge Marian pope. Definitely believer. I didn't really buy that from the church. It sounds like that's kind of a stretch.

The Third Seek was very specific. I don't know, but I do know that right now, Virgin Mary apparitions are global and even non-Catholic. So there was a big Marian apparition in Zaytune, Egypt, and that was the church. not the Catholic Church there, but the Coptic, I think it was the Coptic Church. I could be wrong, it's the Orthodox Church in that region. It was their Marian apparition, right?

And hundreds of thousands of people saw that, and they have photographs of it. So she has now become kind of like a global phenomenon beyond Catholicism. Sure. So what made Nassied and Bayside different that the church said this is not? And people still go there, right? Oh, yes. and believe, yeah. So, okay, so Bayside, is it New Jersey? Queens. Queens, okay. And Nesita, Wisconsin. Yeah, yeah. So one,

Nesita happens in the 1950s, and Bayside happens in the 1990s, I think. I can't remember. Sorry, guys. So many Virgin Mary apparitions. Yeah. But I did have, I worked on these two apparitions with some graduate students and actually some former students who are now professors. And we did some new research on it. And, okay, so the Virgin Mary shows up to some women, both in each case, right? And at first it seems pretty normal for a Marianne apparition. She doesn't say too much. She says, do the good thing.

Like fast, pray, right? Do the good works and whatnot. But then they get kind of like very, very, you, wouldn't think the Virgin Mary would say these things, like very specific about who in the Catholic Church is going to hell and, you know, things like that. So that gives the indication to the Catholic hierarchy. No, these are not, you know, but then they get a lot of followers because there's pushback against the Vatican Council, you know, what's happening in Vatican II, and that even started before the Vatican 2 in the 1950s with NECEDA. Now, what's really weird, though, this is weird.

So the last time we looked into this, one of my associates who we were working on this together uncovered in the CETA the presence of people that looked like men in black. Wow. Yeah. He was freaked out by it and he freaked me out too. So he basically uncovered it in the primary source material where she's talking about her experiences. This is the woman who Mary Ann.

hoof and she's writing her diaries and she said and then these now this is the 1950s these men show up and they wear all black and they show up in dark cars without their headlights on and they come and they tell me that I'm bad and then I need to stop doing this and they tell me that I'm a terrible person and you know they hang outside my window and they come at all hours and they harassed me pretty strange it is yeah it makes me want to go look at the photo of Fatima to see who's in that crowd. Yeah, because all those, we have a ton of photos. Right.

Yeah. Do you believe those second two sightings? I mean, I think we all believe Fatima, right? I do. I do, too. Yeah. I believe something paranormal is happening in those sightings, but I don't think that it's the same type of thing

that's happening in Fatima or in Garibendahl. I believe in Garibendal, too, even though it's not approved. What about Guadalupe? Do you believe that one? Absolutely, I believe that one. Yeah, yeah. I believe it, I'll tell you why, because first, the Tilma is weird. If you look into the Tilma, you know, the Tilma is the image of our lady that's in New Mexico.

Do you study on that? And it's, I mean, art historians have studied it too. And a lot of them say, well, it's painted and stuff. Well, some parts of it are painted. But it's still very, very odd. And I think miraculous. But also, if you read, it's called the Nikon Mahapoa. and this is the original text written in the Wattel of the man who's Juan Diego,

who has the Virgin Mary siding over this hill. And now because I've read so many of these apparition accounts, and a lot of these people don't know each other. Like, who's Juan Diego is going to know about any of this other stuff? No, he's not. It hasn't happened yet. He describes almost perfectly what these other children describe. And the way she talks, the way, you know, the sound of her voice is musical and that he's entranced and, you know, enchanted and all of this kind of thing.

Very, very interesting. I think absolutely it happened. But I'm a believer. I'm not advocating, okay? Even scientifically, it's hard to explain Guadalupe and La Schradictoran is very hard to explain. Yeah, very hard to explain. Yeah, mysterious. Yes. Oh, you meant to mention enchanted. So this is my last question for you. Then we talk about anything you think we missed. I think you wrote two sentences in two different books. I want to put them next to each other. He wrote that the UFO reenchanted the modern world. It legitimized transcendence for secular people.

That's true. And you wrote that whatever is behind it may not mean us well. So is reenchantment a gift or is it bait? Okay. Reenchantment is an opportunity. Okay. So what I mean by the, that is that there was the secularization hypothesis that Max Weber and a lot of really smart people

from 1800s on thought that religion was going to go away because people were educated and becoming more rational. Completely wrong. It didn't work out, right? So people are way more religious now even. You know, people are super religious and rationality has nothing to do with it, okay? Maybe a little bit, but you can be rational and religious. Lots of people are. All right. So this is the idea, This is what Max Favre then called the disenchantment of the world, that we were going to live in a world that was committed. You know, in the sense, it's really happened. A lot of people became what is called secular, non-believers.

They don't believe in anything they can't see. They can't touch. They can't, you know, with their tools, identify. Therefore, it's disenchanted. But the UFO comes back. We have the government now saying that it's real. What does that mean? It means that we now live in a more enchanted world,

like the worldview is going to change. We live in an enchanted world. And then what does that mean? That gives us an opportunity to figure out how we're going to deal with this. Like, you know, if there is non-human intelligence, how would we then deal with it? And I think that's where traditional religions give us a head start on, you know, understanding like that last quote that you had, you know, you picked out from, I think it's encounters. It may not mean us well. Yeah.

I mean, like, you know, I haven't heard that quote from. Chris Bledso that you told me just in, you know, this podcast. He said it in here. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, he says, don't do it if you, you know, don't summon D.C. Don't mess with it if you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. And that's what religious traditions say, too.

I agree with them. Anything else you wanted to cover before I let you go? Let's see. Oh, you've got your notepad. Yeah, but you know what? We pretty much covered every single thing. Okay. Plugs?

plugs, books, websites, where can we find you? Okay, so my book, The Others, came out. It came out last week, which was July 28th. And since then, it's made the New York Times bestseller list, which I was so shocked and happy about. Is that your first one on New York Times? New York Times, yeah, definitely. Congratulations.

So if people are interested in what we've talked about, a lot of it's in that book. Yes. Substack? Oh, yeah. So I have a substact. it's a DW Pasolka at Substack and I also have you know I'm on Instagram I don't spend a lot of time on there I mean we just talked about why so I don't spend a lot of time on social media but I do have a DW Posulka X profile Instagram profile LinkedIn profile Substack I definitely like because it's writing and I'm okay with that you know and and then what else yeah I have a YouTube

channel again I don't utilize a lot so that's where I'm at right right Diana Pesoka thank you so much for being here this a lot of fun yeah thanks a lot I had a great time we'll see you soon okay bye bye everybody that was Diana Walsh Pesoka we covered purgatory Russian immortality cults a blindfolded trip to a UFO crash site or whether social media is the Antichrist the saints I check first the records are real whole towns signed sworn testimony the Joseph of Copertino levitated during the Inquisition, when that could get you burned. In 2023, Yale historian Carlos Iyer published a whole book on these files.

It's called They Flew, which is great. Now, her father, he works sonar on a Coast Guard cutter called the Bitter's Suite, when something enormous stopped the ship dead for four hours. That ship is real, and it was out in Alaskan waters out of Kodiak when he served. The four hours? Well, we have to take her dad's word for it. But a retired admiral is searching for. for the log, so asked me in a year.

And the men in black. In a condemned apparition case from the 1950s in Wisconsin, Diana's team found the visionary describing men in dark clothes and dark cars with no headlights, telling her to stop. UFO witnesses started describing the same men that same decade. The stories never met, but there they are.

Four nights before he sat down, I had a nightmare about Orbs, so I'm not a neutral judge. I can't tell you what this phenomenon is, And neither can Diana. That's why I trust her. The book is called The Others. It's already a New York Times bestseller.

She's at DWPasoka.com. That's PASULKA. And everything I mentioned is linked below. Oh, the guy whose name she won't mention? Tim Taylor, the dragon. Born him soon. Until next time, be safe. Be kind.

You know that you are appreciated. Yes, an area 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I was. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun As well as music So I'm singing like I should But then another conspiracy theory Becomes the truons

And it never ends No, it never ends Crabtadown got stuck inside males' home With M. Kaltra A being only two away Fake the moon landing alone On a film set, would the shadow be pulled? The Indians just thought the smiling man, I'm told,

And his name was cold The Mothman sightings in to have got the secret city underground Mysterious number stations, planets are both to Project Stargate and where the dark watchers found In a simulation, don't you worry though