The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Jeremy Corbell | Betrayal, Surveillance, and the Secret Higher Than Nuclear Weapons

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

-Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call [phone] now. -If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can start your claim in just a click without having to leave your couch: https://ForThePeople.com/BASEMENT Jeremy Corbell has spent years chasing the biggest secret in modern history, and it's cost him more than most people realize. He built his reputation filming the footage governments tried to keep hidden, from Navy warships tracking objects no one can explain to whistleblowers risking everything to speak up. Corbell talks about the years it took to earn a source's trust, the moment a supposed ally tried to steal his work in front of Congress, and what it's like knowing your phone might be tapped. He also opens up about his friendship with journalist George Knapp and the partnership that helped change how the public sees this whole story. This is the story behind the story, from the person who has been closest to it the longest. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. Today we're sitting down with Jeremy Corbell, documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist, who spent over a decade chasing the UAP story, from Bob Lazar to the halls of Congress. And Jeremy didn't set out to do any of this.

He was a martial arts instructor and artist before a mystery illness that left him fighting for his life, forced him to start over completely. He has a near-death experience and becomes an artist. I've survived three of horses. No art. Just day-drinking. That led him straight into John Lear's living room. Then to George Knapp's door, and eventually, to putting a camera in front of Bob Lazard for the very first time.

So the entry fee to UFO disclosure was fixing an old man's toilet. It explains the whole government, honestly. Today we get into all of it, how he earned trust with people who trust almost no one, what is actually like getting worked by intelligence agencies using what he calls false friendship. Intelligence agencies faking friendship information. So basically Facebook. And the whistleblowers he's helped bring in front of Congress, some of whom paid a real price for it.

He's got some wild stories. Some he can back up, some he can't. I had a great time with this one. I think you will too. Let's go down to the basement. Jeremy Corbell, welcome to the basement. Thanks for having me in the basement, man. I'm excited.

First question is a two-parter. Is what kind of art do you make with your own blood and do you use any other bodily fluids? That's going to be that kind of party. Here we go. I mean, that's crazy. What's going on? That was a phase.

That's a crazy phase. Yeah. Wow. Well, no, I want to know. Yeah, no. You've done some research, but have I said that publicly? So, yeah, the whole art thing for me was a total fluke. I can't draw a stick figure.

You know, I met this beautiful artist who became my wife after many years. But how we met was, you know, I had been doing jujitsu, my heart. whole life and martial athletics, you know, since I was nine years old and I got super sick is the short version of it. And I could no longer do the things that, you know, I was passionate about. I thought that's all I would ever do with my life. I had school at UC Santa Cruz and that expanded out into the world and I was a young kid and, you know, had everything I could ever want. And then, you know, getting really sick, it changes everything. for you when you're a physical person and I was going crazy man and move back to LA

and just start disassembling computers. They were on sale like a stack of six computers at like a fries electronics like old school kind of ones and big monitors and started taking them apart putting them back together just as a physical thing to do. I can't explain why I was just doing it, you know. I started seeing my whole neighborhood was being demolitioned at the time in Santa Monica because I hadn't been back in 15 years. So I started taking windows and doors out of these construction sites.

Salvaging before the wrecking. Salvaging. Right. Salvaging. And then one time a contractor caught me and was really pissed. Why? It's just, I think if I had gotten injured or something, I was going in there with like full-on hammers and crowbar.

You know, like getting through fences. That's where the blood comes from. No, no, that's a different story. But anyway, so that's kind of the origin of that is I was just kind of trying to find something to do with my hands. And oddly enough, I had a garage that opened up in Santa Monica onto a main street. And I just kind of had nice to Tommy mats and a heavy bag. That's what I thought I was going to be doing. But then, you know, heavy bag comes down.

and I start putting these windows and doors up like on the walls and painting them and installing lights and these computer screens. I figured out how to separate the computer screens and do all this stuff. So I started rotating imagery and sound. I don't know what I was doing. I don't know what I was doing. And then I got mistaken for as an artist and literally a guy walks down the street and he goes, are you an artist?

And I remember going, I'm a martial artist. I got myself. Right. You know, and then he goes, well, did you make these? I'm like, yeah. He's like,

have you shown them? I'm like, no. He goes, do you want to? I'm like, maybe. I didn't know, I really didn't think

that people would do that. You know, I didn't know what I was doing. So, back to the blood. So at the time, they were taking blood draws all the time

because I had the valley fever thing and it has on all these medications and they're checking your blood. And it was some chick that drew the blood said, oh, it's really pretty color of blood. It is, kind of cool can I have some

and she like filled up some vials on him so I use that as a you know as I don't know I use that in some of the you know kind of constructed pieces and I resined over the blood you know my mom actually has it you know you can buy red okra in the truth I know I know I don't know

what I was doing dude it was weird so that's the only bodily food but yeah taking apart computers is interesting because your grandfather was a watchmaker right how do you know all this did you ever see him work Not Because those people are amazing

Yeah, not on like watching Later in life he was doing more import export And he was kind of getting into like jewelry trade And real estate So I never I was really young And he was born in 1903 or something So he was really older by that time

So I never got to like see him work But I saw a lot of the products that he created and stuff Yeah Did you know you got that from grandpa? I don't know Yeah, I'm not like a technologically savvy person, to be honest with you. It was more just like, you know, this screw goes here. It was just a mental game, man.

It was something like, I lost my identity, man. I don't know if you've ever had that experience in life, but it's like, you know, you think you are what you do and you think this is the one thing and the one way your life's going to go. That's what I thought. And then when that was just stripped away from me, I had to figure out what am I, like Who am I, if not this guy that trains martial arts? Well, everyone knows you for being world-class martial artists, but...

Oh, world-class. I was not that great, dude. I just trained a lot. You're pretty good. It's a big part of my life as well. Really? You're pretty... For 30 years. What'd you do?

Kempa. Yeah, man. So you know the whole... Yeah, I trained for 30 years. I taught for 20 and was full-time for 10. I should have done my research on you. I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

I don't really talk about it because it sounds stupid. It was a very developmental thing in your life. I mean, doesn't it help you? Martial athletics, right? Didn't it, you started when you were young? Didn't it help you, like, focus and teach you how to think and- Changes everything. Yeah.

Which is on my list to talk to you about is you kind of go into martial athletics. When you go in young, at least for me, you start out as kind of like hot shit. And then when you take it seriously, it becomes your identity that really chills you out. Yeah. It gives you confidence. and discipline, and I think I see a lot of that in your work still. But I want to know why you got into Jiu-Jitsu in the first place when you're a kid. Every few decades, there's a moment where the smart money and the everyday saver end up wanting the exact same thing.

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I had uncontrolled energy. My parents did not know what to do with me. You know, I was like one of those kids that would like kind of see white and just, you know, taste metal in my mouth and just go crazy. and I remember my first introduction to martial arts was I come home from school and my big brother was messing me and I'd just go to punch him in the face and he does something and he just takes me bam and I hit the floor and all the air was knocked out of me I couldn't breathe did he execute a technique on you yeah it was like a hip thrower oh wow okay yeah I just like I

threw a punch at him he smashed me on the ground and I looking up at him and I was so impressed. I was like, how did you do that? Right. And he was like, Jiu-Jitsu. I'm like, what the heck? So that's kind of how I started. I was younger than him.

So I used to, I actually got in trouble, I used to skip school to go train. I had to get on a bus to go all the way out to the valley, right? Because I was in Santa Monica. And the teacher at one point caught on that I was like, how did you get there in that amount of time. But that's how I started.

And so I was kind of training at this high school before I was in high school, and I will thank my brother for smashing me. Of course. Yeah, that's how I started. It just gave me focus, man. You try something a thousand times, and someone else has only tried it, you know, a hundred times, and you're going to pull it off. So it taught me that.

Oh, yeah. If you want the skill, you got a drill. Okay, repetition is a mother's skill. Yeah, absolutely. So why did you end up in Nepal and getting sick? Right. How did you get there? Why did you even go there?

You, because you were still a kid, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm still a kid. I don't know. Yeah, I was young then. Well, okay, I said out loud. So I had this, like, great thing going, right? Where I had this great school, I had satellite schools, really great community people, loved what I did. But I just felt this thing where it was like, is this all that I have inside of me, which is fine.

Like, I will do this and I will get better and better at it. I love it. But I said out loud, is this all that I have inside of me? Is this my life? Is this the path that I'm supposed to go on? I'm like, I swear to God, saying it out loud, it was like the universe answered, right? I used to take my students on two trips every year down to Mexico, Mazatlan, and we would train the Cineloin SWAT, right, on hand-to-hand, non-lethal stuff. and then just have like a big party and do some festival stuff where you, you know,

demonstrate. You should do a lot of demonstrations like Juvenile Hall, all the flipping stuff we show. That's not the normal stuff we train. That's for show. Sure, we had demo team. Exactly. Yes. So we would just do demos, you know, around the world.

Like, don't try this in the alley. No, no, no. It's just, it's to excite the minds and inspire kids that there is another way because that that happened for me. And one of my teachers along the way was, well, my primary teacher, one of my primary teachers was Sonsei David Meyer and he was all into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and at that time was super new and I didn't know anything about it. And as he's learning it, he's teaching us as well. Now he's like a coral belt or something, you know, he's one of the top dogs, the dirty dozen they call him.

But I was learning that in the embryonic stage. It was not MMA like people know now. You had had to train boxing, wrestling, judo, Kempo, Jiu-Jitsu, whatever. Aikido, you train everything, bring it together. You had to, like, lie to the Senses that you were only studying with them. It was weird. You kind of do, yeah.

Yeah, at that time, it was very different. You had to kind of shield that you were doing these other things. So I guess why I found myself in Nepal is because we do the thing in Mexico every year with a bunch of, like, you know, kids from university, but we'd also go to Thailand and train Thai. boxing and massage and all that stuff. So I did my normal trip that year. And then I just remember feeling like I got to just go, you know, somewhere where I'm not me, you know, just like go walk

and not fall right back into that role of like I'm teaching jiu-jitsu and all this stuff. So I remember going to the passport people or whatever, the visa people and being like, where can I go like today? You know, and they're like, well, you can't get into like India, take seven days. We're going to go today. And they're like Nepal. I had never heard of Nepal. Like I wasn't one of these guys thinking, I'm going to go, you know, to east and like walk the earth. I just wanted to go somewhere where like you could get there today.

So they're like Nepal. Nahu. Nepal. Okay, cool. So I remember getting this, having to go get some cash. And I go. And I had no idea what I was walking into. I land in Nepal.

And if I recall, there was some major event happening where some bombs or something had gone off in the city. We can look that up. But it was during that era. Yeah. And I was like, you know, where did I land? It was so mysterious. It was totally bizarre to me, a totally different culture. You ever been?

No. Beautiful. I mean, one of the coolest places that I had ever been. But my whole point was just to get out of myself, just to get away. because when you have like hundreds if not thousands of students over a decade it's like people always calling you sensei or this or that it's not who you are it's how they see you so i'm there in nepal and i imagine eventually i'm going to like go down to india because i'd never seen it before you know i traveled a bunch from martial arts but you don't get to see places when you do that a lot you can see the inside of a

dojo yeah so i remember i go up to this um like mom Or something like a Tibetan monk monastery? And first thing that happens, this is so bizarre. It's like midnight. I'm walking down the hall trying to get away from who I am to discover who I am or something. And down the hallway, shit you not. I hear somebody go, Sensei. What?

I swear on my life, bro. So what happens is the student, so this guy starts walking down the hallway. And again, it's super late. Your room was like the size of like this table basically. just a bed in this little monastery and you get and some dude i knew from santa cruz california was leaving at that time and i just it was like a cosmic joke you know i was like it was so shocking to me and so i had to absorb that and i was like okay well here i am so i stayed for a little while in nepal are you training no i was just trying to just see the world differently you know yeah and um

somewhere along the way they because I wasn't feeling sick at that time everything was fine I make my way to to Poon no for two to Tvers to Furnasi do you know about baron no okay dude look at a travel book um veranasi aka very nasty is no a place in india where you go and if you die there then you're not reborn into karma so you're you're instantly what they call, like enlightened. You don't have to be reborn as a human. So imagine the number of people coming there to die. So, and that is, you look it up in guidebooks where I had no idea, you know, what I was walking into. So you see there people at death store, you see their bodies being cremated, cremated, you see them being put into the Ganges. I think there's two types of people

that don't need to be cremated, sados like holy men, and pregnant women, because the babies are pure or something. Everybody else, they do this burning. They've kept the fire alight for thousands of years they claim, right? It is like from the funeral pyre and they bring it over. So it was kind of like shocking, right? I mean, I had been all around the world. I'd been in slums.

This was just a culture that had existed for thousands of years. I was totally unaware of. So I'm there. You want to hear the weird stuff? I mean, this is not about UFOs, but this is weird stuff. We'll get to that later. Okay. So this is a sacred place.

Yes, a very sacred place where you're not reborn into karma is how I understand it, right? That's my understanding of it. So you do see a lot of death and dying. And I stayed a pretty good duration there. So I really got to know it like there are these cafes where the flies were so intense. I would put a like a shirt over my head to eat the meal on the river because there's so many flies because it was just not sanitary. And then this sadu comes down next to me. me, he was a white dude, but like full sodoo stuff. And he like looks at me and kind of smirks.

And I'm like, okay. And he takes this dish and he puts a sugar cube on it and puts a little water. And all the flies got a tract, look like molten flies. And he was just eating and smiling at me. So I was like, oh, there's a trick to this life thing here. What's going on here? So I just kind of met a lot of characters. And then the most strange part of the trip was, you know, how I told you, I said that thing aloud, right? Is there more for me? Well, I was, people ask you to come get chai or tea in their homes. This guy had kind of made friends with me, had known him for a few days, took, I have photos of me and the guy, like, he's like, this nice guy. And then he brings me to get tea in one of these homes, and it was this absolute knowing that they were going to

poison me. It was this, it was this feeling of, like, almost like you could hear it, like, trust needs to be earned. That's what I kind of heard, you know? And I just remember breaking all social norms. I stood up, put my hand on the guy's chest. This is this little guy, but just put my hand on, I just said to go, trust needs to be earned. Right when I said that these two dudes come in, big dudes come in,

and you could just feel it, like the gravity of it, like I didn't drink the chai, and they were expecting me to drink it. Now, you have no proof for evidence, so you just feel like, did I make that up? It's better to be safe. What the heck? my mind was spinning. I walk outside, walk for a couple blocks,

and I see this female who's sitting on the curb crying. I could tell that she was a foreigner. She had like bright red hair. Shout out to Anna Remington, by the way. So that's who it was. I'm still connected to her through social media. And I had seen her and her friend earlier that week because there were not a lot of tourists at the time.

There's on season and off season apparently. And at this point, I'm in India. And it was off-season, so it was like you could tell when tourists are there, you recognize them, right? Why, this girl crying? So it went up to her. I said, what's the matter? She says, my friend was poisoned with tea, and she's in the hospital. And they took her passport, and I feel like they're keeping her sick through her IV.

Oh, my God. And I'm like, what the? So that immediately, I was like, who'd they look like? It was the same group of people. Why would they do that? Now I know. so so what happens is go to the hospital create a big stink you know um you did oh i did yeah i went with her right because you're kind of you know girl alone in india um there's me so go there

make a big stink and it was the first time that i'd seen like armed guards at the hospital and something just ain't right like they got her passport all stuff and um the the girl anna was saying And, you know, when my family finds out, like, you know, they're going to get the embassy involved. Like, implying to me that she has some sort of connection in England where she's from. And I was like, I had no idea what she was talking about. Sure enough. Some badass bitch comes in from the embassy with two other people. Immediately they get that girl out.

And they're like, will you, you know, escort them to Delhi? And I was like, we didn't even planning to go to Delhi. I didn't know where I was going. So I was like, yeah, no problem. I'll take them. So that's how I became friends with those two. Turns out, if you just read one of the guidebooks, one of the things they say in the guidebook is be careful of poison in the chai.

It is a known scam at the time in Varanasi. If I had just read a guidebook, right? This is like pre-internet stuff. Yeah. So, or, you know, pre, there was like you had little Thomas guides, whatever. But, like, you literally crack open the book and they told you about the scam. So what the scam was, was they make you. you sick, you know, and they're like, oh, well, cholera, they tried to pretend you get cholera.

They take you the hospital. They keep an IV in you that pollutes you or makes you, keeps you sick. Keeps you sick. And they milk the insurance money. And then take it out. You're good to go. So it was this known scam, but I did not know about it. That's crazy that you felt it, though.

I did. That was something, one of the times in my life where just, I feel like something just saved me. I don't know what intuition. It's martial arts situational awareness. Maybe. And just something doesn't feel right here, man. Yeah, and it was almost more than that. It was just something I felt like I only had a couple experiences like that in my life

where you get information that there's no logical way for you to have obtained it, you know? But I guess that kind of leads to my sickness had nothing to do with that. Okay. Yeah, they think I got it like from disturbing of the soil. I'm like one night I was like slept out on the road, you know, at a farm area. I was just a kid kind of in a way. And then also like in the caves, like if there's like bats,

they'll just stir up dust or something. So I got spores in my lungs. The thing is it got really bad and I didn't know it was bad because I wasn't like looking in the mirror and stuff. I was just kind of like walking and I started feeling really sick. I remember calling my family being like

something is really wrong. And how I learned that was I was in a room. I went down to Poon India. You ever hear about that? Nope. Super weird place. There was this guru called Oshow. And I was like, you know, I had read some of his books.

I want to see what this dude was about. Turns out he was dead anyway. But it was like this cult, man. These big old pyramids. They run this whole city called Poon India. And so it was just bizarre thing. They like, you know, I went into this compound. I had spent a few days just kind of reading books and seeing what and just felt so creepy

and it felt so culty. And so I was kind of like, maybe that's the start of the investigator in me. I was like, what's going on here, you know? And you're sick when you're down there? No, so I'm fine. Okay. And then all of a sudden... Imagine boarding a plane and hearing the pilot say,

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unless they win. For more information, you can go to for thepeople.com slash why. I go to bed and something doesn't feel right. And then I must have been, I woke up and my bed was just completely drenched wet with sweat. And I had been hearing like chimes and stuff. And I started talking with my buddy, Ricky, and we're talking. It was like he was there. I kind of woke up out of this. And I realized it had been like two or three days. And Ricky had been dead for a while. Oh, Jesus. I was hallucinating from a fever. So my brain was cooking, man.

So it was in my body. And they got so nervous, they're going to have some dude die in this like cult ashram kind of weird place. So they sent in a doctor because I wouldn't go to the hospital because of the experience prior. So they're like, they sent in some doctor. Do you have a fever? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know my whole life I ever had a fever.

How would I know? I really didn't know. She puts like a thing in my armpit to test my fever, and it was 107 in the armpit. So that means your brain is cooking. So they panicked and they shot me in the butt with some, you know, remedy or somebody to reduce the fever. And it was like somebody just yanked my head out of the water.

It was like this instantaneous, like, consciousness, you know. I was like, well, fuck, I gotta get out of here. So they said, okay, we have your passport. You need to drink this much water in this many days. Like, I have video of me lining up the water, you know, doing like a little video to myself, you know, like, I just got to drink this water. I'm getting out of here. And I just pounding that water. They gave me back my passport and I left.

Why did you have to give in your passport? You know, I don't know back in the day, maybe because it was a cult. It was like, it was a weird. I wouldn't want to give that up. Bro, I was so dumb. I'm a little smarter now. At the time, to enter this compound, I guess, you had to, like, give them your passport. You're in your 20s, right?

Yeah. So you'll do anything. You're invincible. Dude, totally invincible, yeah. And anyway, so that's the long way around it is that happened, again, a couple more times where they had told me you just have some bacteria that's different here in India than it is in the U.S. So you take stuff for your lungs, you know, like bronchitis medicine, antibiotics. And you'd feel better for a little bit, but then it did happen two more times.

And then I realized, oh, something's really wrong. You got to get home. Yeah, you got to get home. And it was the first time in my life I ever flew business class. I thought it was such a party. And I couldn't enjoy it, dude. You have this nice seat. But I was just dying, dude.

You're passing up champagne for just, I just need water. I literally was like, they must have thought they're dead man on the plane, you know. But yeah, I remember getting back. And they immediately discovered that it was. a coxylide, I don't know the name of it, like valley fever, and it had gotten from my lungs, it had damaged my heart, my kidney, my liver. It had actually started coming out. I got little scars in my arms because it came through the skin. It had gotten so bad. So they were, even at UCLA, they were worried that it had progressed too far. So they give you a pill that's like

an antifungal and a bunch of other stuff. Sure. And then very slowly, I started kind of regaining my energy. And it's right about that time that I started doing the computers, things, and painting. And then... You couldn't train anymore? No, dude, I could not... Like, to walk down the block and then harvest a door would put me down for a day and a half, two days, because the amount of energy had sucked out of my body.

I was skinny as a rail. I was just really fucked up. Are you not depressed? Yeah, well, that's a whole other thing, right? Because your identity is destroyed. Yeah. that's the next thing that happens, right? Yeah.

You kind of get back to, okay, I can move, but who am I? What am I doing? So there's absolutely that loss of identity and ego, which is the best thing that ever happened to me, you know? Is it? It is because the one thing I learned from all of that is that we are not what other people say we are, right? Praise and blame is all the same.

Someone doesn't know you. Like your family you should listen to, people that really know you, but they don't know you. They're filling in voice. about who you are and usually with false things and it also taught me that we are not just the things that we do that the things that we do are because of who and what we are on the inside man and so you can apply that to anything if you're fastidious and you study physics books and then you do a podcast all the things you do right um those are just expressions of who you are and that's a deep spiritual

lesson for me um whatever that word means it just um you know it taught you know it talks about taught me that we can live many lives and that we can apply ourselves to almost anything. And if we're diligent, we do it a thousand times and not just a hundred times, that the only failure you're gonna have is not trying. So that was the best lesson of my life. And I met my wife through it all,

because she's looking at this some dude making what she thinks is art like inside of this. It really was art. It was amazing. You were doing multimedia presentations. Yeah, yeah, I just make a joke because I can't draw a stick figure. My wife can actually paint amazing, creepy, weird stuff.

She can do all this stuff with her imagination. For me, it was more like a physical trade than it was, you know, then I saw it like jiu-jitsu is an art to me, but it's very mechanical. Yes. Right? So you kind of, it's like paint by number. You just, you learn what the next number is. Yep.

Do it a thousand times. Do it a thousand times. And then you earn another number. That's right. You discover another number. That's true. Yeah, you're always learning. These are themes that I see in your story coming up all the time in that.

salvage. And another one is, because you just kind of alluded to it, is the unflattening of a story, how people are always flattened into a story, whether it's David Grush or it's Bob Lazar, their story gets flattened. Like you mean, that's what you are, that two-dimensional thing? Yes, so on I'm getting to, Sharon Tate's story was flattened, and you unflattened it. Well, yeah. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. That piece that you did?

This is going to sound like my whole life is an accident, and the thing is it might be. You know, it's weird. I think it's all programmed. You're following the program, man. It's all good. Yeah, that was a weird detour as well. So that odd thing was I had been doing these little art shows and installation shows in L.A. And it was a really fun, really creative time in my life.

And I was meeting, I met my wife, met a bunch of friends. we kind of created this community of like doing these art shows, take over a motel in Hollywood or something and line the walls with, you know, newspaper. I love the L.A. Times for some reason. Newspaper everywhere. I just love the L.A. Times logo, you know. We'd fill it up, you know, girls in sunglasses, like crazy themes.

And then, and then, okay, this is a weird one. So, you know, I used to do something called Warrior Yoga, and it was like yoga for after. And why I called it that, because I used to teach in juvenile halls. You had to get these kids' attention. So I'd say, if you don't stop doing push-ups, you'll have free training for life. We're right up here at the university. All the students come pick you up.

You're good to go. So the idea is to get them to not repeat the habit, get them out, doing something physical and good. So a lot of kids came out of that. I don't think a lot of people know that you did that for juvie kids. Yeah, I did it for me too. Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

But why don't, why didn't, Why did you choose to do that? Were you, because you weren't, no, no, no, I was good at not getting caught. Yeah, fair enough. No, I mean, I never was institutionalized or anything like that. But I think it was that I think I met a couple of kids. I knew about the program.

And I just asked one day, I'm like, can I just come and teach some martial arts? And they're like, nope. I'm like, what? And like, we can't teach them wrist escapes. Right. Okay, that makes sense. Right. And so I just started this kind of, you know, whatever, balloon program, this little thing.

They were very unsure of it, but it was just like, let me give him a good martial arts workout. We called it Warrior Yoga, so they would think it's really cool. And let's just see how it goes. And then my buddy, this guy Frank Shamrock, he's a fighter. Of course. Good friend of mine, I trained with him a bunch. And he trained also with us a bunch of the yoga and the breed and stuff. He taught me so much about how to move in martial athletics.

And he had been institutionalized. He was in prison at one point. So I brought him in and the kids knew because at the time he said, so it became this really popular thing, this huge program. So I kind of, I think I just started it with the idea of, you know, let's see if we can give people something they can do other than this. But then it just grew, man. It just grew.

And it was, you know, a lot of people benefited from it. And it was a fun thing to do. That's what I did it. My favorite part of my career was teaching, like, boys who were like 14, 15, 16, 17 who were just, they were just pains in the asses and just slapping them around and just setting them on that path. There's a lot of boys that need that. Yeah, I did. I did, too. You got to direct that energy, and now you do it positively.

And if you stick with it, you learn discipline, do respect. and I'd have parents coming and bank of me for kicking shit out of their kids for a year. It's amazing what you did. They'd get good too, man. They start kicking my ass. Oh, yeah. The girls, too.

Yeah, absolutely. I took some lumps. You invented a massage system? Restoration massage therapy? Didn't invent that. It was like so. Well, you have a registered trademark. Right.

So because at the time for Jiu-Jitsu yoga and all this stuff, when you're in that world and you're creating these systems for university students, you trademark it so you could create all the educational materials around it. So I actually started training and learned massage starting at the age of nine as well. And that was because my original school, they had five teachers and they're all from a variety of disciplines and they always bestowed upon us that if you learn how to disassemble and you learn how to do the martial athletic stuff, then you need to know how to heal your own body

and help other people. So that was, I don't know if it is today. I don't think it is today in the same with MMA. It's much more a sport now. Yeah. But at the time, it was very valuable. Like you do all this stuff of your fitness and health with what we called warrior yoga. But then with the massage, it was this guy named Okazaki out in Japan. And he had created this Okazaki Masage style. He had a student named Sig Kufrov. This guy was out of the Bay Area, and they all trained me in this kind of bodywork style, which is very useful because you mess something up, you know, you have ways to heal it. So that was kind of the triad with the martial arts was the yoga and then the massage.

Yeah, I taught that, you know, 10 years at a university. And again, schools all over the place. It was a great life. I learned so much from it. I loved it because it was a creative thing. But yeah, that's how, oh, Sharon Tate you asked about, right? So that's where we were going. Yeah.

It's a weird one. So what happened is... Because she's known for the one thing. She's known for the one thing. She's known for Charles Manson. She's known for being murdered in 1969 and the whole world. Two-dimensional flat story. Right, right, exactly.

So how that happened was I had done an art show and this producer, from Inside Edition, you know, says, hey, you know, we need a photographer. It gets even weirder. Like, there was this, there was this studio. And when I was doing the Warrior Yoga thing, Lulu Lemon, I guess, was like, you know, will you come be an ambassador, you know, and we're going to take some photos and put your photo up, you're an ambassador? I'm like, okay, do a yoga class inside the studio.

I'm like, sure. You're the Lulu Lemon ambassador? At one point I was. At one point I was. they had a bunch of them, local ambassadors or something. It was a weird thing, man. I didn't know what was going on. Just go with it?

It went with it. So I started to feel better at that time. So I was like, sure. And I met this guy in this photo studio, this little Iranian guy named Peter. And he was like, I thought he was like a grip. You know, he was just kind of hanging out as they were doing their thing. But we really hit it off, man. We sat outside.

We were talking for a while. And I had that in the back of my mind. that there was this guy and his super nice guy named Peter well I'll get there because it's such a weird road but what happened was I go overseas and I start doing

just taking the shitty little camera and doing a new art series I was going to do a show all set up when I come back is this a camera that was gifted to you? No so that was that's like a video camera this is like a still camera okay right so I just started like taking these photos I was going to call this series

like women in sunglasses and, you know, I was young. I was out, you know, in Europe at this point, and I just went for a little while, and then I got robbed of all of my equipment in Prague. How did that happen? I come back from going to watch oceans, whatever, like one of those heist movies.

Yeah. And I had left in my room in a safe, my camera equipment, my hard drives, and I actually had bought some, like, suits or something like that. So I had, like, a couple cool suits. And I just had this gut feeling, dude, get back to the hotel. You know, something like I just had that fear, like something isn't right. Get back to the hotel.

The door was smashed in. The safe was wide open. And somebody had just, and there was like three security doors. It was like a hostel, but there were like three security doors. And then there was just like private, you know, room with a big fucking door. And somebody had come in and smashed everything and stolen everything. Have they getting the safe? great question

I don't like it no I don't like it at all so up come the stairs there's this gigantic Serbian dude and he's like do we have a problem and I'm like yeah

we have a fucking problem and I like I knew instantaneously that this guy was a part of it right so my dumb ass pushes him up against the wall and he just like smirked at me

like there's nothing I could do to this guy he knew something that I didn't and it was fucking frightening. Next thing I know, these investigators, these cops come up and they were like, you're going to jail. You are? Yeah. And I'm like, for assault. Well, I was like, why? And they're like, because you don't have identification. I'm like, yeah, my passport was just stolen. Oh, dude. Yeah. So all this to say, what happens is I make like my emergency call and I wasn't holding

for 72 hours. I have all the paperwork for it. You were in holding for three days. Yeah, they gave me a candy bar. They gave me a candy bar. None of them spoke English until the third day. They spoke English. They knew English. They sure did. And anyway, so what ended up happening was an embassy guy, you know, comes up, says,

we're going to, you know, get you out here, going to get you an emergency passport. You're going to go home, right? I was like, fuck that. I'm going home. They stole everything that I had. It's, you know, all my work, everything. So I decide I'm going to investigate what's, going on. I start loitering around the place. I talk to the girl that runs the cameras at the thing.

She starts crying. She's telling me, she slips me a note and being like, you know, all the footage is gone from that moment. You were set up. And now I know exactly what happened. But these are the situations I used to really get in when I was an idiot. So what happened is they assigned an investigator to me that's a local guy. And he's standing there and the big serving guy, he owns the hotel. So eventually I confront the guy with the, I call him Inspector Crusoe, because he was not trying to help me. Right. And the Serbian dude says, you know, people get killed for a lot worse. So I was really causing problems, talking to his employees, all this stuff, just trying to get my shit back.

I figured at the time, I figured my camera, my computer, I could get it back. So that didn't work. And he said to me, he said some threat right in front of the Inspector Crusoe. And I'm like, see, he's threatening me right there. And then the Inspector Crusoe turns to me, goes, Yeah, he's a really bad man. And I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm out of here. So, like, you know, tail between my legs.

I'm like, I'm out of here. And so I call back to the one photographic studio I knew, which was Peter Carpation. Peter Carpation was not some grip, you know, that was there. He's like a famous Vogue photographer from the 70s who's done these covers. And he goes, darling, I'm Peter Carpation. Come back. We'll shoot a show. It's like comical.

So I kind of did like a fake art show. Like I got all my friends. It's called Women in Sunglasses. There's like videos of it and thing. And like all my friends came and wore these sunglasses. Can I call you darling from now on? Yeah, darling. Yeah, yeah, yes.

Yes, officially. So he was great. He saved my ass. And so then I kind of get mistook as this photographer. That's kind of how the photographic element of the art stuff started happening. Look, so I'm feeling better at this point. I've had some more adventures. And then I get a call.

And they said at that studio, we need a photographer to photograph Sharon Tate's wardrobe on a model named Lauren Hastings. And none of this is all like gibber. I was like, wow, I didn't, you know, I just knew Sharon Tate, like you say two-dimensional. Right. I'm like, well, that's kind of creepy. You don't want to do this? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not?

So I went and I, um, right before my, the guy Peter Carpation had taught me this Polaroid camera, this old school press Polaroid, had to rip it out. And I threw it on the ground once, I stomped on it and created these cool patterns. So I started doing that all the time. Sharon Tate's sister comes in and she's watching this, you know, shoot, which I had no knowledge of the fashion industry and why this was important. I just knew Sharon Tate was this like person that had died. And her sister starts crying. And I say, you know, I can do, I'm an artist now. Like I can do better in this. We can do a whole thing like honoring your sister. So I made this kind of arrangement with her.

it, you know, I would do, it was like a 10,000 piece art show because of all the Polaroids. And I built dresses out of, I built dresses out of Polaroids. And I did these huge, large format ones. There's a bunch of video of it online, like LA Times covered it. I saw it. It's amazing. It was smashing success, man. So out of nowhere, you know, I've got this like art career.

And it's pretty good. It's pretty awesome, man. So kind of just going with the flow and flowing with a go and enjoying it. That's what happened. So then, um, so Jeff gives you a video camera, right? Jeff Mirad. Jeff Mirad. You still talk to him?

I do. Yeah, he comes to some of the, you know, whatever's. The whatever's? Whatever things. Yeah, he's a sweet kid. Yeah. So Jeff gives you the camera and, uh, you still have that camera? I do.

Canon 5D Mark 2. I filmed all my movies. Wow. 5D Mark 2. It's not even the good one. Yeah. But it was pretty good back in the day. It was.

He gave it. to me for my wedding with my wife, and we just started, you know, kind of using it on their road trip across country for our anniversary, and that's how I kind of learned to frame and do it. Well, I read that you were practicing on your honeymoon. Yeah. Have any of those videos you want to share? I do, I do, man. I was like, you know, you were in Texas, and there's a long road.

We're lighting off fireworks, and, you know, yeah, it was kind of neat. It was a way to document our kind of honeymoon. And yeah. What I like about you getting the camera is maybe you started to learn that for some reason people will open up to a camera. That's precisely what happened. Yeah. That is exactly what happened. And it kind of started with like my grandma, right?

You know, she, I was telling you this story outside there, which is that I had made this art piece of the Battle of Los Angeles, a very famous UFO battle. battle, UFO thing, where the United States military shot up 1,300 or 1,412 pound mortars or something like that. Yeah, this audience knows this sort. Okay, okay. Yeah. It's like some big event. Yeah.

And you could see it from the palisades. And two of the windows I harvested were viewing that way from the palisades. So I thought, well, I'm going to take images from the LA Times, rebuild that as if you're looking out. And then I did like a dual panel. And it didn't sell. So I naturally, what do you do when your kid? Your art doesn't sell.

You give it to your parents. So I went and installed it way high up where they could never get it down in their house. And my grandma just walks by and she goes, I saw that and just walks out the kitchen. I'm like, hold, hold on. What do you mean you saw that, you know? And I sat her down and, you know, kind of she told me about seeing the Battle of L.A., this thing, object being shot out in the sky. Mm-hmm.

And then she also told me all this stuff about my family that she had never told even her own daughter, my mom. On camera. On camera. It was like, it was like, I don't think anybody had ever sat her down with a camera before. And it was just like, I saw this thing where just pointing this camera at somebody, not even about UFOs really. This is about family stuff.

They just told you stuff that would have been lost forever if you didn't point the camera at them. And so I like to make the joke that camera. became my passport into everything unknown that I wanted to know, or at least I had the potential to be that. It's a weird thing. You point a camera at somebody and they have these things that they want so desperately to say, just to get it off their chest, not to be public a lot of time in the UFO, just to say it.

So I learned that really quick that that is, I could be misidentified as a filmmaker. You know, that's kind of what happened. Wow. What were the secrets of the family that she told you? She had at one time had a daughter that didn't make it. She had never told my mom. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Just something she had just never told my family. How did your mom react to that? Oddly enough, it's weird, we're talking about this. She didn't have the heart to watch it. I told her about it. But yesterday, on my way over here, she asked for the video about 28 minutes. So she probably has watched it now for the first time. And that was like a decade.

15 years ago, I don't know, something like that. Because of sleeping dogs, I feel like I know your mom. Oh, she's so sweet in that. She's a gangster. Yeah. But what you see is what you get with her. Yeah. She had me choked up a couple of times during the movie, to be honest.

It was a hard. That's a really hard time in my life. And she was going through it too. There's a lot, you know, not said in the documentary. like what she had to go through. She's had to sit down with agencies before because of threats. So she really, my mom's been through a lot,

three boys, you know, but that was a very hard time for all of us and the kid Michael captured it all, or a lot of it. Yeah, Michael, we'd have to get his name. Yeah, Michael Lozofsky, and Sleeping Dog is the movie, yeah. He's a great movie. Your mom was so badass because I think,

He asked her, you know, do you wish that Jeremy never got into this? And she said, no, I'm glad he did it. Yeah, that surprised me that she said that. Me too. Yeah. I didn't see that coming. I want to talk about John Lear, but coming up on a break. Yeah.

Well, we'll leave with this cliffhanger. We'll come back. We'll talk about you fixing John Lear's toilets. I talk about John Lear a lot on my show. So when I saw sleeping dogs out, I was like, this is gold. I had no idea you spent so much time with John, so much. How did you even come to learn about him? Right.

How to learn about him? Well, he was like the godfather man, from the era, from the Art Bell era that we've talked about. You know, the one looming name is this enigmatic character, John Lear used to fly for the CIA. You know, his dad invented the eight-track stereo. You know, it became Motorola, the company. like he knows all these insiders you know man he had some crazy theories i mean he was just like this omnipresent personality in ufo land before it kind of moved into mainstream you know he was the guy he was infamous you know so i'd heard about him because of i guess originally the

george knapp interview with the shady um with the black background yeah yeah so The Dennis interview. And, you know, John... Oh, the Dennis interview. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was like... So that was when Lazar came forward to George Knapp and was in silhouettes.

You couldn't see his face, but they called him Dennis. And that was just repeated over the airwaves. You know, that was just like everybody was talking about that in UFO land or whatever on the radio. And I remember, it must have been 13. And I heard that. I think I heard it before I saw. saw it. And, you know, kind of, that's when George Knapp's name got on my radar too. And this Bob Lazar character, because he ended up coming out as Bob Lazar. And so John was, you know, woven into that

story. And, you know, what you get is you read all this stuff about it. But these people are just like these voices and then these stories and then maybe you see like, you know, news clip of them and they become a little more real. But I was always fascinating. by that. You know, hearing what Bob said really flipped my script. And we had talked about this for a second, but I grew up knowing that UFOs, that aliens, they're probably real, but they're not coming here. That's what we all grew up knowing, because the distances are just too vast. And I bought into that. You know, I thought, well, that's weird, but why have people seen them, right? But I wasn't, like, obsessed with it. It was just it really sparked me to hear this story because of what Bob said.

And Bob said, instead of like a reactionary propulsion system, from rockets to roller skates, you push something out the back, you go forward. He says what was different about these craft is that it basically created gravity well. You're falling into time and space. You're falling. You're falling. So you're not pushing out the back. You're falling in. And I thought, you know, if, when I was a dumb young kid, but I thought if what he's saying is true, not his whole story, just like if craft could do that with science, then distance no longer matters. You're falling into space and time. You need a lot of energy to do that, but you're falling into space and time. So distances no longer matter.

So why wouldn't? And he's saying this 25 years before the have a carry drive. and we were talking earlier about the exploring multiple dimensions, compressing space, searching for Kaluza Kline particles is what it is. You know, Bob didn't specifically say Kaluza Kline, but he was talking about tech that they're actually looking into right now. Yeah, and Bob would be the first to say all these years that all he knows is what he's seen, touched, and shown.

Words on paper, he was told some wild things, but, you know, he didn't know, and to this day doesn't claim that he knows that was true. because there's always disinformation sewed in with real information just so you can identify leaks that is a standard practice. Yep. Any black budget program, anything. But so, so Lear was this gigantic persona, right? But I knew that he was close, I think how it happened in my mind was I knew he was close to the Lazar story, which I knew was the most fascinating to me. Because remember, at that time, before the movie I made on Lazar was out, This was all sub stuff. It wasn't pop culture stuff. The world had not changed. No.

The UFOs at the time. So I was just like, who could I actually reach? And like George Knav, I mean, I called John. I emailed John. Nothing, nothing for a long time. But one time he did pick up his phone. And his immediate response was, come on here, Las Vegas, Nevada.

Here's my address. Come visit me. Like, click. Like, it was like totally insane to me that somebody, I nobody knows I'm not doing UFO stuff but just my I think he was I think he like was lonely or something you know what I mean I saw the movie I think he was yeah I think he was and so he he really wanted someone to talk to he did and I think he just opened I think I came at the right time he opened the door I had a camera which he thought meant something you know and I was honest with him I was like I've never made a movie but I just I'm fascinated by this I want to learn from you can I record some of it So that's how it happened, it was just very naturally, but I was dogged about it. It didn't just, like, come one time and figure I got it all sorted out.

It came over and over and over again. Did you have to bring the Philly Titans the first time, Ed? Not the first time. That was a lesson I learned, probably the second time. Yeah, had to smuggle him cigars. Contraband. You want the story? Forget to bring me Titans.

That's right. From Walgreens. That's right. At first, he wouldn't say shit to me, and that is very real. So the thing I really appreciate about Michael's movie, by the way, is that the one thing I told him is no movie magic, don't skew things with time, show it like it happened. Like I hadn't even looked at the footage.

You talk with Michael. Like I would describe a story to him and he'd be like, no way. I'm like, dude, watch the footage. And he did. He'd like, no, no, it's even cooler than you said. He reminded me of stuff like how I'm complaining that George Knapp will never pick up my calls to John and John says, I don't know who he picks up for anybody. I told Michael that story that like I had been trying to get to George Knapp.

for many years. And it's all documented right there. It was pretty neat. Did you let Michael have the full edit? Yeah. I give Michael everything. It was completely his movie. Yeah.

Because there's a couple of spots where you're like, don't put that in. Oh, I know. Like even my family was like, you know, showing yourself emotional and all that. It had to be there, man. Really? Yeah. I'm glad you said that. But I just like, it's a horrible feeling for me.

Of course. Yeah. But it makes you a person. Right. He did a great job with it. He's a really talented filmmaker and it was a heavy subject. He had to go through, I mean, just thousands upon thousands of raw footage that I had never looked at.

So somehow he over a course of a year or more absorbed it all, watched it all, you know, pinned the things he thought was important as he's doing it. Were you rolling on John Lear every time you were there? Every single time. How much footage? That was a year? Dude, ask Michael, he'll tell you the exact, but thousands of hours, man. Oh, my God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, how many years, you know, eight, nine years filming with Lear? But, like, the first time that I went out to film with John Lear, I was such a dumb ass. Like, I figured, like, you know, what's the first question you ask? What is your greatest piece of evidence that UFOs are real and extraterrestrials exist? You know, it was like that, that was my, I just came in hot like that. And it's just I thought it was simple. Like this guy had something.

It wasn't that. It's an accumulative weight of relationships and evidence and understanding that brought John to some weird places that he believed. How did he come to trust you? I think trust fluctuated with, with me and John. I could see it in the movie. Yeah, I was his least favorite person, sadly, towards the end of his life. Yes.

He is a very complicated guy. He had a great sense of humor. He had a great laugh. I loved him like family. Always will. But it was a kind of up and down relationship. So at first, of course, he doesn't trust me. And he's using me.

And he wouldn't even talk to me about UFOs. Like, that's real. When you see him just smoking his cigar and barely looking at me and he'll go take a nap. It was just like he's letting me film him like an animal in the zoo. Like, it was just really bizarre. And his whole setup is weird, man. It's like a hoarder. Yeah.

Kind of. Yeah. TVs everywhere. I mean, it was like a sci-fi set. It was like a sci-fi set. But this was like legit man. Yeah, yeah. That's John came as he is.

Like that's John Lear. I mean, the whole TV thing, like back in the day, he would have like CNN on one, you know, Fox on another, BBs, you know, he'd have all the news separated on these TVs. And then he'd be playing tapes, reviewing. stuff people would mail him rant like me now people mail random things and you're like should i even watch this so that that setup was probably useful at one time but i'm kind of coming in at the twilight of his life you know he's a very different person before i met him is what i've heard from everybody um and he was he was fucking with me yeah time to time you know um the whole thing with

this toilet was um i just kept like i'm trying to like film and there's this constant toilet just ghost-flushing, which, by the way, costs a lot of money. I'm dealing with that right now with apartments. You have to put a dye in the top of the toilet. You have to wait five minutes and see. It's like this whole... So I had grown up knowing how to deal with this, and it just drove me crazy.

So I... Yeah, people don't know that you make your living with real estate and apartments and management. That is my actual job. You're right. You're not making a fortune from your UFO. No. Unfortunately, I'm a horrible gripped.

I am told, even by your own brother. Right. Like, we are not monetizing, you know, our podcast. For me, this is, I like having financial independence because it puts me in a unique position with journalism where I don't have to work for a big company and I don't have to get like benefits from them. So I will maintain my apartment and house renovation business because that is what has always fed my family and I can rely on it. Because those are fixable problems. Literally just fix in some apartment toilets

three or four days ago. But I love that. I love that because they are fixable problems and it relieves my mind. It's like going back to the computers with like, you know, unbolting them and bolting them back. It's very simple.

But with John, it was very simple. Fixed this toilet so it wouldn't make this sound when I was recording. Then he realized, gold mine. I've got a smuggler and a handyman. Yep. And man, did he put me to work? Did he?

Yes. around the house? All around the house. What are you fixing? Everything. And he thought I was a computer whiz too, and I wasn't. I'd have to call my brother who's like way into computers and ask him. And then half the time John would just have his cap locks on.

There was no light on the thing. And like, you know. I saw that rat's nest of wires on his table. Oh, God. I had to sleep on that floor the first number of times. Really? Yeah, because I didn't have a ton of money. And it was like I was going out there every weekend that I could, you know,

and buying the gas. And, you know, so he let me stay. after some time would let me stay at his place. I graduated to George Knapp's place. He had mercy on me after he saw my living conditions. But yeah, it was just many years of getting to know these guys. And that's why I can tell you, for a matter of fact, that John Lear was not a paid disinformation guy from the CIA.

I've heard that a bunch, right? Dude couldn't even tie his own shoelaces properly because of his illness and so. He just didn't have it in him. he believed the things he would tell you, unless he was testing you and telling you things just to see how far he could make you, you know, go. He believes some far out stuff. He did. He did. What did he get right?

Yeah, that was the interesting stuff. It was a lot of the Area 51 stuff because he'd have pilots come over from Nellis when I was there. And he would, you know, he still had a lot of connections within intelligence agencies. And he was like this guy that people would just talk. to. For some reason, maybe because they knew there would be no judgment, because he didn't have a bullshit meter. John didn't. He would just take everything as gospel. It was super bizarre to me, and I don't know if that was just later in his life or if he was always like that, but he was definitely a safe person to talk with other than the fact that, you know, he would blab about it.

It would be careful of that. Yep. But I think a lot of people came to him because he wouldn't judge They could tell him the weirdest stuff that has ever happened to them, what they saw, and he would just listen. And that was really cool to document that over the years of him just absorbing people's traumas, their stories. Did you facilitate that meeting with Sleeper? The guy, what was it, Lou Bowden is his name? Lou.

Yeah, I really like Lou. Sure. You know, that's the thing with intelligence agents too, like even when they've tried to entrap me before, like straight up. Sure. I've had to give that to my lawyer. Mm-hmm. I can still like somebody.

Like they're doing a job, right? The Lou Baldwin thing was pretty weird to me. Lear would talk about this guy's sleeper who came to Earth on a craft. But the way he would talk about him was like UFO Jesus. You know, like everything this guy says is so. And it just really perplexed me because John was hyper smart. You know, he could draw photorealism, John Lear, with a pencil. Really?

Yeah, he's a fucking genius. John Lear. No question. Yeah. So I was like, John, you can draw? He goes, yeah, I draw, you know. Well, photo realism? He goes, yeah.

I go, well, show me one. He goes into this big old thing, pulls out. What does he draw? A urinal. That was so John Lear. It was a perfect porcelain, man standing urinal. Gorgeous. Just gorgeous urinal.

But that was so lear, you know. Genius and crazy. Are you there right? next to each other. Yeah. I asked me if he thought he was crazy. And he laughed at me, you know. Did he answer it?

Yeah, he goes, no. He goes, if I am, it's been a fun ride. He goes, but no, I know what I'm saying is true. And he was committed to that. So the things he got right was a lot of like the test site stuff. Like how he got prominence in the first place was he went into Ned Day, which is George Napp's mentor in journalism. And he told him about the stealth.

fighter, right? Which was at the time a very top secret plane and to the point where the FBI come in and they start shaking down Ned Day and Ned Day finally says, look, I'm a small Las Vegas, Nevada reporter. If I can find out about the stealth fighter, then you sure is shit the Russians and the Chinese know as well. I did you a favor, right? So John had really come in and broken, helped them break a couple really good stories. He had so many sources and contacts out at Area 51, at Nellis in general, and in these other agencies that he would get nuggets of truth, the stuff that, you know, come to find out 20 years later that he was right about 51 or this or that. So he had a lot of good information, but zero filter. If somebody he

trusted said, we got people living on the sun, he would tell you, we got people living on the son and you just kind of sit back like does he really believe it and um i come to find out some of it he did he told me did he believe that his soul that like our souls are being harvested by the on the moon that's stored by lou to the best of my assessment john lear firmly believed and because i saw in the movie was such a crazy sequence i'm glad michael put it in there where lou says but john lear he's got a ticket right out out out of the prison planet. And John's like, is my ticket still good?

He's like, yeah, yeah, good. He's like, okay, cool. I mean, so you're describing something in the movie that I think, I hope when people see that, why I think Michael left that in the movie is because that does show you. He's sitting there in the sunset of his life, and this guy Lou Baldwin wrote him a thing,

basically a pass to get through the pearly gates or something. And he firmly believed that he left a lot of stuff out of the movie. It was really uncomfortable, So I got Lou and I bring him in and I want them to meet because this is kind of one of John Lear's like dying wishes was to go to 51, which we did again, by the way. You did? Before he died, yeah. I took him out to Rachel Bar and Grill and we got shook down by two intelligence because they know John Lier. Of course.

Yeah. But they were like overt. It was badged contact. They come up to me inside of the ALE Inn, they called it. and they're standing right by where my batteries are charging in the wall and my back, I can't get around them. And there's a man and a woman and they say, hey, Jeremy, what are you filming? And I go, I'm just filming some interviews with like John Lairn.

They go, well, you know, I said, how did you get here? Because I didn't see him walk in. And they're like, we flew in. And I'm like thinking to myself, oh, they're trying to flex on me because the only people flying in are coming from the base. Right. So they identified themselves as naval intelligence. Uh-oh.

And they said to me, where's Bob Lazar? Which is just this bizarre thing for me to, you know, where's Bob Lazar? Because you didn't connect with Bob yet. No, I had not met Bob Lazar, and I was filming with John Lear. This is like my indoctrination into the high strangeness, right? Yeah. I'm standing there.

And they're really trying to be ominous, like trying to press me a little bit. I never experienced that before that time with agents. And I was just being a kind of shithead. I go, he's right. there and there's a photo of Lazar on the wall so I was kind of taking the piss out of him oh and I does not have a sense of humor about this right right and so yeah stone coal face like that they didn't even look where I was pointing with my finger and they're like you're not thinking about going over the gates are you I go oh no I

wouldn't think about doing that I hear this a six hundred dollar fine if you do that like I was just like messing dude so at the time John was sleeping in the car because he take a lot of naps you know so he had kind of was done with it and I had just been interviewing. You were safer with the Serbian dude than here. Yeah, yeah, quite possibly. No, they were just trying to flex on me, dude. So John's like just passed out in the car in my sion, Toyota Siret.

He's like, you know, fold the seat back. He's completely snoring. I come to the window. I'm like, dude, we got to go like that. And I go, there's just the two ONI.I. The female and male, they're in there. They're ONI. They just, you know, started asking me.

He goes, you met aliens. That was John's reaction. Yeah, yeah, John's reaction. Yeah, John's reaction was, you met aliens, and they came to shake us down. So we didn't go to the gates after that, because I come to realize they know we're there. But he got to see kind of the proximity of Air 51 again before he died. That was pretty neat. And then he wanted to meet Lou.

So I flew Lou in on a Southwest flight, and he comes in, and you see their very first meeting and interaction what you don't see. Because I guess, Michael said the movie's not about that. you don't see is like they go out into the tennis courts that John had. They were all overgrown, looked like a zombie tennis court. Nobody had played there for 20 years. Wow. You know, we wheel them out and they sit there and I film it. And John's like crying. And he's like, you know, I don't want to go yet because of Damien, who is his grandson. And Damien had kind of some hard things happen in his life. But that's when I could see that he's like talking to this guy, Sleeper, Lou Baldwin, and he really believes that, you know, there are soul catchers, that the aliens are involved,

and he's worried about his son, who he's known, or sorry, his grandson, who he's known as been abducted. And I don't know, man, I call this UFO disease. It's like, when people get so deep into this and they don't know the answers, we don't know the answers, we like to fill it with what feels best to us. And I really fight against that. I've heard it all, man. I've heard every theory of incredible people.

I don't know the answer. And so I'm not going to fill it in because I've seen that go wrong with everybody, man. But you naturally want to fill it in. You want to. So you just leave the hole there. Leave the hole. You're okay with it.

You and Michael should talk about doing like an extended cut. So I'd love to see some of that stuff. Yeah, it's awesome. It was kind of heartbreaking to see your relationship with John, those last sequences were rough, man. Yeah. When he died, were you not on good terms?

We were not on good terms. Basically, what happened was, I've been filming for a number of years, and, you know, the idea was, hey, I'm going to make a movie out of this footage, and, you know, that made him feel good, and that was the plan to do so. But what happened was he stopped my ability to do that.

He basically signed over, you know, his life rights to a family member on a napkin, which completely cut out my ability to have autonomy on the film. So at that time, I had gotten very close with George. We had started working together. There was a trust that we built over time. And I had also met Lazar. And I had always told Lazar,

I was like, three minutes of you talking would mean so much to the world right now because everybody for over a decade has, I mean, probably longer than that, has been lying about you. And I know that now, knowing you, and I've known all your friends, and I've heard from you, this stuff.

Just let me push record for like three minutes. And that's that funny scene where when he actually first comes in... Well, hang on. We'll get to Bob in a second. I want to know what was going on. When he signed away the rights, is that just a fuck you to you?

You know, you were there for you... I know. You helping him put a shirt on. I don't know. I know. I don't know he was a complicated guy and I think that I don't want to say it I just feel like maybe people were taking advantage of him a little bit you know like everybody thought he was a meal ticket, you know, so I just like I don't know why he did that. I don't know why I didn't take it personally right?

You didn't? No, I didn't take it personally. It was like, you know, he had a tumultuous situation going on in his life. if you just kind of look through public record. Sure. Tramultuous situation. And I feel like he said it to me like, this is what we're up against.

And I go, what do you mean? This is what we're up against. Like, why did you do that? Like it cuts out. I'm like, I have literally done this for all these years. And I have nothing that I can, like, this doesn't help get a movie made about you. So I just kind of like,

it just didn't feel right anymore. I didn't take it personally. Like it didn't, I understand his psychology. It just, I don't know, he was at the time of right mind when he did that. He was on a lot of pain pills and stuff. You mentioned that he wasn't getting the right care at the end? That's, you know, I'm not one to judge that.

I just, yeah, I would say, I would say it didn't feel right to me. He didn't look good. He did not look good. He didn't look good. He flatlined once in between our filmings. That's that call you here. He's not doing so good, I say, and I could come out. Because he had flatlined earlier that week.

So we knew he was kind of like, you know, not long for this. earth so but he ended up living longer and long enough to be pissed at me but what he was pissed about was i ended up making a film that i could make and it wasn't about him and i think that really pissed him off and then he had some poisonous people in his ears you know saying that i just used him that whole time to get to lazar something like that not true no and and george knows that everybody that was there know that i really in good faith was trying to make that film he made it impossible, you know? It's clear it was in good faith.

Yeah. All right, so then, uh, I guess you get a call from John or John tells you, hey, Bob's coming over. Well, I was actually there already. You were at John's house? I was at John's house. And he had always kind of said this thing that like, you know, oh, Lizar might come over for my birthday because I'd filmed a couple of his birthdays at that point. So he was always kind of using that as like a, you know, come down and hang out with me

and bring me some Philly Titans. Right, right. Fix some toilets. Bob could show up. Bob can show up, you know. So I didn't fall for that anymore. But then sure enough, one day, I guess Bob was in town, and I was there, and he called through, and respectfully, I turned off the camera when they were talking.

Learwood always wanted me to film every time he was on a call with, like, Dr. Mitchell and all these people. And I just felt weird because they didn't know, you know. Right. So I turned off the camera. You really did? Yeah, every time. Yeah, because I don't, this is, yes, I'm not like.

A lot of, a lot of dudes would roll. But then how are you going to use it? I don't know. Can't use it? It's not moral to use it. It's not. Yeah, unless you ask them after. Yeah, your morality got in the way of some good stuff.

Well, now I record everything. So now, like my life now, everything is recorded. Like I have nest cameras in my house and they're 24-7. Every call is on speaker phone. That's for my own. So no one can lie about what I say, which people have tried to do. Of course. So everything is documented to a high degree in my life now.

So did you sell Bob in advance? We're not rolling. We're good. So I actually took the camera and tripod and the recorder and I put them away. Oh, nice. So that when he came in, because I didn't know, it was like, you know, you trap a pharaoh animal. Like, I didn't know what he was thinking. He had not come public at all.

And you just seen people saying, oh, this garbage about him. And again, I know all his friends now, so I know it's bullshit. So when he comes in... This is like 2012 or so. I'm so bad with that, but probably. Around there. We can look at the timestamp on the footage. Because John died, I think, in 2016.

Okay, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. I mean, so I have to go back to footage and look at timestamps to no exact dates, but... But just like Bob wasn't super famous. No, so that was the whole thing. It wasn't in pop culture. And so I didn't want him to feel trapped.

And, you know, Lear just wanted anything to be filmed at all times. So I put away all the cameras and stuff. And then Bob comes in with joy. And they just have a pow-wow, and they're laughing, doing all this stuff. And then I see my kind of opening. And I say, look, I don't know if you're telling the truth or not. Like I have no judgment on it. I would love to know.

But here's what I do know. And I do know that people are saying the craziest stories about you that aren't true. It's very targeted. They're trying to dismiss you. Like, can I just turn on the camera for three minutes? It will make a huge difference. You know, put it out on the internet. I was thinking something like that.

And he said, yeah. So I just got the cameras, turn on that. And that's the first footage you see. I actually made like a short little film about it because he went far. longer than three minutes and that's the first time you hear Bob Lazar put his foot down and say I know the UFO's a real I was inside one I know they're made with a science and a material that we we have never been able to make and he just went on this rant and John was looking at me like holy shit because he had never heard Bob

stand up for himself in that way so I knew that that was an important moment to to learn about who Lizar really is. How did you get him to do that? Was this another grandma moment? I asked, no, I asked him. I said, can I just film the three minutes? Can I film it a little bit? And he goes, sure.

And then I said that thing before. Like, I don't know if you're telling the truth, but I know people filling in voids. And however I set it up, he just unloaded. And that was the coolest thing. Because imagine me, I'm like, I would always heard about this guy, Lazar, especially from John and all those people.

And he's throwing down. I'm looking at him being like, oh, that's not, he does not seem like a liar to me right now. It does not. Now, I had cause to believe or to know that a lot of what Lizar talked about is actual, but I didn't know if Lazar had been there and that he had seen the things he said he saw. That's what kind of started me on this,

is that I had previous understanding that this was likely true, but I didn't know was he being used as like a disinformation guy? You know, I didn't know. But I get to know him, get to know everybody around him. I see how some of them don't like each other, how they don't. I'm like, this is not some big conspiracy. They are all telling it from their perspectives. The one thing they agree on is that Lazar did work out there, that he did have the job he said he did,

and that all these little things happened. Like he'd come back to Lears and kind of spill some beans. And John's like, dude, don't come over here after working out there. They're going to, you know, they're going to follow you. So it was like this crazy time where George Napin and all them were being followed. And George will tell you, he's like, you had to have been there to really understand what that pressure was like. He goes, my newsroom was tapped. He goes, now we all think, oh, and I say we're all tapped.

He goes, not back then. Back then to tap a newsroom was unbelievable at the time. And so it was a different era. So there's Bob. He says his thing. He leaves. John's like, I have never heard him talk like that. And I said, well, maybe, maybe, you know, he's sick of it.

Maybe he wants to show people who he is now, right? Because it's a natural thing. People shit on you for 10 years. And at some point, you're going to get pissed. Yep. And Bob is not a pushover. No. He's a gentle guy, but don't piss him off.

You can see him get pissed in his eyes when he talks about the eyes. It's hurt his life, man. Of course. If you believe anything that he said about the repercussions of this that have happened to his life, which some of its public record, you know, being raided for no reason, all this stuff, It's a way to pressurize the situation and make you shut up. So whether you believe him or not about UFOs, there are some things that we know about Bob that have happened.

And it's a pressure cooker, you know? Yeah. He got raided and they made his life miserable. They did. Where other whistleblowers, not so much, but Bob, they did. Or behind the scenes sometimes with other whistleblowers. Sure, sure. You were probably the first one to bring Bob Lazard to the mainstream.

What did you think about Luigi's movie? recently. Yeah, I think it was really important because Bob has always said it's important that people could kind of see what I saw. So for Bob, it meant a lot to get those details right because he said everything he can possibly say. But he said that saying it is different than seeing it. And with a big thumbs up, Bob's like, that's what it looked like. And so I think that that's a real service. I don't know how much farther people can dissect his story because he said it all. He's shown it all. There's nothing big he's hiding from anybody.

Like a name or something like that so he can be the judge if someone's fooling him or not. I've had so many people come to me like, I worked with Bob out there, blah, blah, blah. And I know the questions to ask. And if I don't, then I put it over to Bob. And he has certain things that he will hold back just so he knows if somebody was ever out there or not. You know, it's smart. But the core of his story, there's nothing. more that he can tell.

No, and he says, I don't know, more often than not. Right. Did you ever come across Dan Bersh in your travels? Yeah, he's full of shit. Oh, he's full of shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But George has a whole thing about that. But I think the important thing is about Lizar's story.

So we were in a different era in 2018 that was just on the cusp where things started to change about UFOs because of the 2017 article and whatnot. But it was still very much in the shadows, especially. Bob, my movie was just to show people, so my movie is called Bob Azar Area 51 and Fly and Saucers. I lucked out. Got a couple movies on Netflix, one on Hulu. I'd never made a movie in my life. Again, it's like this imposter syndrome.

I'm not a filmmaker, but I lucked out with distribution. So when that movie came out, what I wanted people to see, I wasn't trying to prove the details of Lizar's story. I was trying to humanize him. I want you to see, this is Bob, this is his life, this is joy. Oh, by the way, he actually is a scientist. He works in scientific capacity. He has a laboratory.

He is the more science guy that I've met than most scientists. Like he's hands on physically doing stuff. He's got a cool business. He's got a cool life. He's got doggies. So I just wanted you as a viewer to see, like you're talking about beyond the two dimensional. Yes.

And see him as a person. Because he's flattened as 2D. Yeah, man. More than anybody. And so if you could see that, I was figuring in my mind. If you could see what I've seen, then you have to contend with what he said in a different way. I'm not fighting for one side of the other.

I have my own personal conclusions that I've come to, but that's what my movie, what I wanted it to do, was just to allow you in, so you see him as a human, so then you have to contend with what he said in a different way rather than just dismissing, oftentimes, based on stuff he never said.

So that was, that's what my movie was about, and it burst into pop culture in a way I could never, Storm Air 51. I mean, I could never have imagined. Yeah, that was you. He was going to get crazy.

That was you. Well, that was a kid named Maddie. I know, but. Well, he watched the Rogan episode with Bob, and then he watched the movie, and he started a meme, and it started something that was so out of control that George and I were like, hmm, maybe we should take a little control of this and try to make it like a good thing. So George went to report on it. And I like called the crazy-ass musician who I didn't even know.

He was like popular and had him come out. tried to steer the conversation rather than it being... Did you get a call from somebody like, dude, if this is you? No, I was never officially reached out to in formal capacity by the FBI or Department of Justice on that one. On that one. But they definitely made it... They were definitely present at the event overtly badged. Of course, right?

Terrible idea. No one blamed me for that. It was something out of control in pop culture, but that is just to show that people were so hungry to hear about the UFO stuff that even now to this day, I think it's the most popular podcast on Joe's is with Lazar, the first Lazar.

Yes, it is. It really, it punctured something into pop culture, and that was really neat. So I think the new movie is amazing because you get to see, according to Bob, what he saw. And I think that's cool. There are a couple of key moments

in UFO history. One of them would be probably Bill Moore's book about Roswell. Another one is your movie about Lazar. Do you feel that? Do you realize how much part of history you are? So no. You don't. No, and that's always

people have said that to me before things. I have no rear-view mirror, man. I am like a forward-looking, I'm just like no rear-view mirror. I know that George and I have made some noise. I know that we brought out a bunch of military videos. I'm glad the world is embracing this mystery, but I don't, you know, I've got more questions than answers, man. We're like, we're just starting with this thing, I think.

Was Lazard the first time you used the totem pole expression? Like you wanted to make a totem pole something that's worshipped or something that's burned. Okay. Was that? I don't know. It was something you said a while ago. Oh, yeah.

It was really interesting. Right. I don't know. The reason I ask it is because you're kind of becoming that as well. At a totem pole, it's, um... They're going to burn me? They're trying to. Yeah, I noticed that.

But there's also, you also have followers. There's an eschatology. There's, here's what's weird is... What's eschatology? Which is a belief system. You're a leader of a belief system. It's almost a faith. You're almost like a faith leader.

I don't know if you feel that. No. You're always up against compartmentalization, all these different things. And yet I see in your methodology, encrypted files, information that comes out, it's very planned.

You're compartmentalizing. Do you ever, is that attention for you that you're kind of doing what they're doing? Okay. the idea that I'm a gatekeeper or something. Is that the idea?

No, because this isn't an attack question. No, I'm open to any question. I want to clarify things that people misunderstand. So. But I'm glad you brought up gatekeeping. I didn't think of that. I've been accused of that. Of course.

My mom will send me when people say nasty shit about me online, but I would like the right to explain to people what journalism is like, what we have to go through, how we have to protect sources. The last thing that George and I are doing is holding information back. Look at her history. We have put out more than anybody when it comes to these things that should not be seen,

and we don't do it lightly. Every time you do that, you put a source at risk every single time. And the footage isn't even as good as when the government puts it out. If I put something out with George, all of some people are saying, well, what's the frame rate? The frame rates off, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like we take shit for it. All we're trying to do is put out the best we got. Now, when the government puts out a piece of footage, it's directly off a server.

There's no frame rate discussion. there's no source that's getting in a compromised situation. The onus is on our government. They have said that they're going to be transparent about UFOs. All we've been doing is journalism. We've been provoking truth. We've been provoking the release of data and information. It's not like we stand behind every piece of footage.

That's an alien space group. We've never. That's not our position. We're trying to get the stuff that is being hidden, that is a public interest, if it is safe to do, for sources and for America. The last thing I want to do is hurt our country, right?

Trying to get it out to the public. It's much better when our government does it like they said they were going to do. So I'm not holding anything back. I am thoughtfully and respectfully trying to get as much out as possible with George that doesn't compromise sources because that is my number one obligation. 100%. Yeah. If someone comes to you and they provide you something sensitive,

You need to assess, because I'm going to be on the hook for it with George. You need to assess. Is it going to blow back and hurt sources? And if it is, I can't do it. I don't, I wouldn't feel good about myself. You can't do it. Yeah. So speaking to George, tell me.

But I get accused of that, by the way, all the time. Of what? Of gatekeeping. Like, I'm doing what the government's doing. I'm doing the opposite, man. No. I'm just more, I'm worried about you, I guess, having all these pieces scattered around. Like if something happens, you have a plan?

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. George and I do, yeah. Like I've said before, like, there's, everything that we've ever accumulated is not going to go lost if something goes wrong with me and George. Like, very simple, you know, over the years to make sure that there's no dead end

with our reporting. The simple process. It's something you said in the movie that it's going to frustrate a lot of people, but there's no way around. it is there's some stuff that you guys have to hold back because of national security because you just have to. You want me give you a concrete example? If you want, I mean, because there's no defense for that. It's like, guys, I'd love to tell you about this, but we can't, we really.

Well, there is a defense for it. I mean, so big picture holding back for national security, like, that's not my job. I'm not qualified to, my lawyer will tell you, I'm not qualified to assess that kind of thing. I will tell you, I will tell you, I will tell you, I will tell you, I will tell you, though, that it has been made incredibly clear to me that, for example, if there's a Russian submarine that is breaching and there are, in thermal, there are two lenticular objects coming from left or screen to the right. Now, will that one piece of footage crack the egg? Is it better than a piece of footage without a Russian submarine in it? Right. Yep. Um, no. No, it's not. Right.

So when you're assessing, you know, with national security in mind, I have been told directly that that type of footage is really bad for American defense. So the question becomes what's the value in a piece of footage compared to others? Now I have nothing like that, things like that have passed in front of my eyes. I'm familiar with that kind of stuff. I've been shown a lot more than I've ever, George and I have ever, obtain. But the defense for national securities is very simple. It's not on me to release that kind of thing. Our government has said we're going to open the books on it. Now, we're watching. We want to

make sure. But if I had to choose what George and I report on, if someone's going to give away a strategic advantage that the U.S. doesn't want taken away, then I have to think about that like a person too. You do. Yeah. So I just, I understand, you know, everybody wants everything out. All that stuff. We're not in a position to make that choice a lot of the time. I'm 100% with you. Why would somebody ever also give journalists something like that when you've seen that George and I have put stuff out

that has not endangered national security? So even though I'm aware of something, doesn't mean I'm in position to actuate it into public domain. It's annoying. It's annoying, but there's no way around. Look, I'm doing my best. If somebody can do better, they should do it. No, nobody can do better.

Hopefully people will. You have the right moral center for it. You were chosen for this. No one else could do this. Tell me about how you and George hooked up. That's an amazing team up, man. It's so cool, man. He's the best.

What a legend. And it's so cool because you go from, you go, Ned Day, who's like his mentor, someone comes into the newsroom. Ned Day says, UFOs, if I don't know about it, didn't happen and George says I'll track it down and now here you are right you're you're like you're you're the next yeah you're just carrying the same torch yeah he's really yeah I was really

shocked man the way George you know because I'm I haven't hadn't made any movies or anything like that and I've told this story before but it was just it was really hard to get to George you know harder than the president during an election I said but it's true he has all these layers like and he just doesn't answer his phone a lot and as he gets older too definitely doesn't answer so but it was like at the time i just hit this sweet spot and i just remember that he you know i get on the phone with him and he just unloaded and it was probably the longest conversation that we had ever had to date it was almost like a pressure valve and you know i said look i'm not trying to like um you know i'm not trying to hurt anybody i just want to know the truth you know

you how did he know you no i because i i just called the news station i emailed a few times over the course of two years, I reached out kind of respected without being like too much trying to get through. You've probably experienced that. And just hit a sweet spot. So finally he,

his news director called me back and I was totally unprepared for this call. He goes, hold for George Knapp. I'm like, well, whoa, what? Hold for George Knapp. And then he took mercy on me. He's like, can I give you a piece of advice? I'm like, yeah.

He's like, know what you have to say. Say it succinctly. and just listen. Okay. Yes, sir. So I did that, yeah. I mean, it's Jeremy Corvalli. I just really was there.

And then George just unloads. And he tells me, here's what I know. Here's what I don't know. Here's what I suspect. You know, it's just kind of these three things he did. And then, you know, it's like the first time I went over to his place. And I told him, I'm working on this thing. I want to make this film on Lear, but it's really confusing.

What are you feeling on the drives of George Napshouse? Oh, fuck. Yeah. I don't know. I wasn't really in this world I wasn't really in the UFO world You know so it was just kind of like I'm driving to George now I don't really get nervous about stuff

Because I don't think it through a lot of the I'm just kind of I just straight up honest I just don't I just kind of go you know And I'm oftentimes in rooms I shouldn't be in And like I only reflect on that later like why the fuck am I here So I just felt like excited like maybe I'm gonna get a little bit more truth you know but then George and I just hit it off man you know we're talking and probably not a lot of people could have held the conversation with so many details about it like I could so it was almost

like Lear was like I was training from my black belt that's right you know and like you know learning some of the crazy and it was so relieving to hear George Knapp say well that's fucking bonkers or no let me tell you the real story about that so he probably enjoyed the idea that he could tell me what he had been going through with all these characters over time so it was just kind of neat And then I think one of the first things we did, we called Nellis together. And I filmed this. Yeah, man. And it's different than when I call Nellis and ask about Site 4 and all this stuff.

And when George Napp calls Nellis, they take it very seriously. Really? Yes, because he's George Muffington Map. Yeah, right. And so he's the lead investigative reporter at Las Vegas, Nevada, for, like, at the time, like 30-plus years. So I was like, yeah, man, I've been trying to can't get through to Nellis. So I remember we sit down and he calls the public information. officer who he knew.

And so they're like, Mr. Napua, we'll get back to you. And it was a specific question about any designation of S4 or Site 4 on the base. And when they actually left an audio message, so I recorded that as well. I don't know if I've ever put it out.

But they're like, we have no, and he's kind of giggling, kind of laughing. He's like, we have no site for specifically designated on our maps. You know, so he was trying to tell George, yeah, of course we got to say for it. You already called, you know, 10 years ago, no, we do. But it was a cool thing.

So, yeah, with George, we kind of together, we've had a lot of fun being able to ask the hard question. He says it in the movie, and it's great. He said almost word forward, like, I love catching them in bullshit. He does. He loves catching a warrior. So one time I go to the atomic. comic testing museum. And this is really before George and I had worked a lot together. And there was the head of the CIA's history person, a historian, and then a guy who is head of science and technology

Area 51. This is all filmed. You can see it online. And they're having some panel. And it's all about Area 51 and all the cool things that happen there. And George is like hosting it. And I'm in the front row with my Canon 5D like this. And he goes, I think that guy has a question over there. So he like threw me in and I go, are you aware of a movie called UFO's past, present, and future, fully funded by the CIA, essentially the CIA historian. And they talk about, and I just did this whole thing. And they like whisper to each other. Like it got a little tense because I was like the UFO guy. But that was the first time George kind of threw me in as the harpoon to ask the questions that nobody else was going to ask. Was that in the movie? No, that's not. Because there was a whisper

answer in the movie as well. Oh, did he show, he might have shown a clip of that. Yeah, he might have showed that was Petit is his last name he was the lead historian for the CIA you just see them take the question they whisper yes okay it was like and like we like he showed a clip of that there's a there's a longer version so you can see what I asked online yeah but that was my first experience of George kind of like I guess trusting me enough to to throw me in like a harpoon to ask the question that no one else would ask right I think that kind of like started it off for us a little bit and then man shit just really blew up um in the UFO land after we started working together with ASAP and the A-Tip and all the stuff, it was really

became something. So it was a good timing. How did you and George decide to start the podcast? I think I just roped him into it. I told him, I was like, man, you know, every time we do something, like I put it out on my, like, little website or it was actually Rogan who told me, you got to film a podcast. Why? And he goes, because do you think there would have been a viral moment if you just heard Elon smoking a joint?

And I'm like, oh, that's a good point. Like, so the idea of filming it kind of came to us. And I, you know, he does his new, he had, you know, full-time news guy. And I was just putting stuff out on the extraordinary beliefs website for my films. And I was just like, man, you know, we could do something where we just go after these stories, do it together. I kind of, you know, just pull them into it, man. and I think he's enjoyed it so far. Sometimes he gets mad at me.

A lot of work. I mean, that was my next question is like, what do you and George disagree on about this stuff? I mean, because you've admitted that he's more skeptical or he's harder to convince. Depends on what. So, like, I mean, like, I'm, like, allergic to the paranormal ideas. Like, you know, just to be honest, like,

I don't grasp that stuff. That's what I like about you. Yeah. And I just, so for me, that's a heavier lift, but I've learned a lot by being more open to what those stories mean. And, you know, the litmus test, I think you call it for me, was like being thrown into the opportunity to go to Skinwalker Ranch before it was, you know, popularized in this way. So I really had to kind of open myself up to understanding the UFO phenomenon. on if you just listen to people is far more complicated than potentially just spaceships coming from other planets.

But it makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm not qualified. I don't know who is, but that's where we kind of, you know, he has more experience with that kind of stuff. What is he, he thinks he thinks is a physical craft? No, I'd say it's the opposite. Like I came from the, you know, kind of nuts and bolts.

but he had experienced so many other things and was much more informed. He had to fly-on-the-wall opportunity with a lot of these government programs. You know, you want to start a conspiracy. George Knapp has been at the center of everything. Everything. I mean, the reason why Lazzar comes forward,

the reason why Harry Reid was interested in this, how the Ossap got created. Ossap would not, I don't think Ossap would have gotten created if it wasn't for George Knapp because it was his book that sparked the interest of Dr. Lackatsky. So a lot of what we're seeing today, if you want to start a conspiracy, it centers around, or at least George Knapp was in the room for a lot of it. You know, it's a really interesting life that he's had.

The movie's worth watching just to see George's house. It's like it fulfills every fantasy. The Emmys are lined up, the P-Body, the books, the videotape. Did you guys ever find that videotape you were looking for, that crazy tape? Which one? I forget what? The one in the brown case that shows the full cloud. chamber test. It was done over.

Yes. I have torn apart his entire house over a 15, almost 15 year period probably. I mean, I have digitized every blank tape I could find. Even Bob is so pissed that they had like given that to a trustworthy news reporter to never lose. Right. Would did George just hide it in the best hiding place possible? Now, he's had things go missing before, which has been an issue.

but this was like in a nondescript brown case it's supposed to show i mean everybody that was there i know everybody that was there they did a cloud chamber test to see if you could bend light with what bob said was element 115 in a puck and george not being a scientific guy he said it looked like the light was bent the other science people that were there in a home situation all described the same thing. So that tape allegedly has that and they did give it to George for safekeeping. I mean, he is so pissed at himself about this, but I'll tell you why there's hope. He just found a whole bunch of stuff from his Russian travels that like had never been digitized. Wow. Because his house is like a museum of tapes and papers and, you know, he'll just find stuff sometimes. So to answer your

question, no. Would it show what I think we're all hoping, which is a bend, of the light. They all say that that is what happened. Everybody that's there that don't have cause to lie about it, right? It would be proof of something, but it wouldn't be the ultimate proof. No. But it'd be something. It'd be something.

Yeah, you guys got to digitize that Russian stuff. He is. Yeah, there are already, the kid Michael actually. Now I've got my successor, Michael, he's doing the hard work now. The kid. Yeah, the kid. Well, I don't know. I call him a kid. He's younger than me. All right, we'll take a quick break.

We'll come back. We'll talk UFOs. Okay. You probably get a lot of shit, a lot of email, a lot of stuff. You could say that. So I've heard you... I take a lot of shit and get a lot of emails. I've heard you say, if you want to get your story out, I'm not the guy to call.

Right. So when you get something, how do you vet it? Like, how do you spot bullshit right away? Because I'm sure you do. What makes you go? Sometimes. It takes some time. And sometimes you...

go, be serious. What's that process? Right. Yeah. Look, one day I will fuck up. And, you know, it would be kind to me if I do. We're doing our best. But, you know, what I learned, actually, it's funny.

You know, you were saying, you know, George is one way. I'm the other. Like, I'll argue with him that I am way more patient. You know, he's like a news guy. He's like ready to go, you know. I'm more like the human guy. You know, I take my time, you know, just. sometimes really like years with people

because they might have told me or shown me something really great but I'm always feeling like people are trying to hurt me. You know, I'm always trying to see the people trying to trip me up because I know it to be true because I've had interference and that's a big point I want to get to about the movie is what we wanted you to understand

you know, the movie's really about journalism in my perspective and why it even exists. But before that, cosmic time. So my aha moment with the UFO thing didn't come in the form of like a video or something like that. It came in the form of government influence. And I didn't realize. You know how people say you have intelligence agencies baked into the subculture of UFO thing?

Okay. So I guess I was a little naive. by like, okay, cool story, grandpa, like, you know, oh, your, you know, your computer's being hacked. Okay, cool story. You got your caps lock on. You know, I was just always this guy, like, feeling like the world's out to help me and not hurt me. Yeah. So that was, but that was always like, what do you go instead of paranoia, pro noia.

Right. You know, everybody's trying to help me. What's going on, you know? Did you know about Richard Doty and O and I back in the day? Yeah, of course, but I figured that the guy's, like, doing his job and then, I don't I don't know. Yeah, I guess I knew about that. So I guess I should have been more,

I should have been more thoughtful about it, right? But there's always many sides to that story. Like the way it was told to me from the Doty, you know, individuals is that it really didn't take much to tip him over the edge. Correct. With his belief system. Correct. So that's why you have to be so careful, man,

with what you choose to believe rather than have evidence for. But for me, the aha moment was just the amount, of covert intelligence agency influence on the UFO space. And when I started interfacing with that, they quickly found out that I must have good sources because I could find out if somebody's up to something. Can you give any examples? Yeah, sure.

Okay. They call it false friendship where you have somebody reach out to you And they're like a big fan of your work. They're NSA. A bunch of us at NSA, you know, watch your show with you and George and, you know, all this stuff. Cool. You know, they're at like, let's say, Wright Patterson. They got a little office.

They got some weaponized stuff around. They take a little photo, which I don't think they should be doing. Wow, this is a cool person. I get these too, man. Yeah. Oh, Missile Command is a fan of my show. I didn't know that. Yeah.

And look, maybe they are. I don't want to be like, you know, maybe they are. Maybe they are, man. I've had people come from Lockheed, from Boeing. I've had people come up to me at a bar because sometimes I go hang out this bar where all the employees come out from all the aerospace companies.

Really? Yeah, I'll take you one time. You're in California. Please. It's pretty cool. So I always go sit out there and it's funny because the gray shirts will come out. I believe that's Lockheed and the black shirts

will come out and it's Raytheon. And there's just just one pub. And I'll just sit there, man. Like, you know, like bait. You know, I just sit there. And then eventually somebody always breaks from the and comes up and they say strange things. Like one guy says,

history's going to remember you kindly. And I go, what would you? Like, what did you say? And he goes, history is going to remember you kindly. I go, what do you know? You know, I'm just kind of messing with them. Sometimes I'll get their phone numbers or whatever. But what I've learned is that someone, let's say, from NSA,

they'll come and they'll do this whole thing. I'm a fan of your show or I'm a kid at a facility where we look at reaper footage 24-7, I've done it six years. Dude, something crazy happens. So after they get to know you, all of a sudden, it's something crazy's happened, right? And going back to the NSA thing, well, I called around and I have this unique ability to find out if people have other federal employment, and it's to the chagrin of some of these intelligence agencies, because somewhere there must be a file that says you now have to have

badged contact with Jeremy and George, and you need to show them your puppy and show them you have a wife. Like it's so funny. It's this playbook. It's like they always talk to me about my dogs and then they have a dog. And like it's so playbook. It's like crazy. It must be in a file.

You ever call anybody out on it? All the time. It's like when you're messing with people, you ever heard those stories of like in Russia where like the counterparts even though they knew they were spying each other would like go out and have drinks together? Of course. That's like it's human nature. Yes, of course.

So, yeah, this is, I think, what really shocked the kid Michael who made the movie because he has seen a lot more than most people, these interactions. And as I told you, I document everything in my life out of self-defense. But anyway, my point is somebody that approaches me and says they work in one agency and they're just big fans of the show. And then I find out something about them, which is, I don't know, they're a liaison to the FBI. And, you know, George and I ever since, you know, we've been kind of,

of in this realm of reporting, have had a lot of badged contact. This is wanna, hey, respect you, you're a journalist, we're not messing with anything. We're more worried about foreign nations compromising you because then maybe you don't vet stuff and not just hurting America, but other nations, you know, they're being good cop to you.

Yeah. So I started seeing a lot of that happen. And Georgia too, we've had a number of meetings about this. And he required meetings? Well, you never say no. So that's the thing. Only one time did we say no. But I have a federal lawyer who people now know who he is.

Chuck McCullough, they're at first ICIG. We've seen him on TV. Good lawyer to have, right? So he's kind of will walk me through. You don't, you know, I'm a curious dude, first of all. So even when he said before, there's no reason for you to take that meeting, I want to take it. Because I want to know what they're thinking. And he kind of laughs when I say that.

But I'm serious. I want to know what they're thinking. I've learned a lot by taking some of those meetings. Now, they understand strictly that George and I are doing our journalism, First Amendment, not to be fucked with. It will become a public issue if you try to influence overtly, try to influence any of this shit. So they're not going to tell you not to report on stuff,

but they're going to tell you the guidelines and the rules with national security, right? They don't want you to get messed up. Right. Right. Hate to see something bad happen to you. Right. Right, exactly. So, God, how deep to go into this.

So let's say I find somebody is liaison with FBI because they're doing an investigation on our sources or something like that. So this dude is patient for like four years. And then when I'm in a heightened state of emotion, there's public things that have occurred. You know, there's this whole slide-of-hand thing that happened in Congress once.

And, you know, people could tell I was kind of like upset. What slight a hand happened? As much as you want or as little as you want? Yeah. One of the hearings was not as it appeared. Oh, shit. Yeah. And people know it as the Immaculate Constellation one.

People thought I was upset because some other journalists, you know, turned in my homework. That was not the case. There's a lot more to that story. There were prior meetings for two and a half months. What I was worried about is who the public can control. trust, whose sources can trust, who the government and Congress is telling you can be trusted to bring sensitive information to. It is the hardest thing about testifying is getting there. Some of these whistleblowers you have never heard about because when they ask me to bring and we're going to have

five people testify, how many do you want? Oh, you know, 12, 13. So they want people to bear themselves, put themselves at risk saying this is what I would testify about but we know not everybody's going to get selected so it takes balls to steal sometimes depending on who's testifying to actually put it all out and say I want to tell the public this

it's the right thing to do because not everybody's going to get selected is that why you smuggled Matthew Brown in oh god we are going to weird realms yeah so why did I so let's let's take back the word smuggled first

second. Okay. No laws were broken. No laws were broken. Okay. So I want to make sure to answer your question about government interference. And then I'll talk to you about smuggling to Matthew back. It's a great story. So then when I'm in a state where, you know, I'm vulnerable.

It looks like I'm vulnerable or angry at least. then you get that same person under false friendship to try to get you to solicit it's called that's where they say and it's entrapment and it's completely legal and it's what it is absolutely legal for them to do where they say hey man i don't know like i'm at my computers and like i'm really mad about what i'm seeing and do anything you want me to get no no bro and these are career human intelligence people. They know exactly what they're doing. So in that realm, you have to be as a journalist really careful.

And if they lie about what you say, that's why you have to record everything if you can, right? Because they don't want to stop people from talking about UFOs. They want to shape the emerging UAP narrative. Yes. That's what to do that is have leverage. I can't anymore count the number of times that I have directly. been invited to solicit and I have never and neither has George and we I was taught that day

one from George like what are the rules here when you're reporting on shit that our government doesn't want you to report on to a high degree they don't want you to report on so that is an example of the interference but it's so much deeper man I have just jumped into the vipers pit with all this and it's not a cool place to be right so I have to be so careful. And it's not just for me, but it's also for the people that I speak with, man. You know, the more I raise my head up, the more it puts pressure on anybody that talks to me. Like I tell people a lot of time, I don't want to talk over the phone about stuff because you never know. We know for a fact that when I brought people under a nine-month investigation with ODNI,

ODNI is the top intelligence agency run, R-18, I think, intelligence agencies. they did a nine-month investigation. First person they came to was me and George Knapp. We go in, we were like, oh, you're going to get to the bottom of this. This is really great. This is a mandated thing. Nine-month investigation. We told people, whistleblowers, if you go in and talk with them, we don't know that they're on the level.

We don't know that they're not just doing a human, you know, suck-up information, who knows what, and that they're going to use that and weaponize that against you later. We don't know. But, you know, if we can help go America, do you guys want to talk to these, you know, folks? So people said yes. Most people said yes. In good faith. And they did.

I come to find out that it was a complete ruse. My lawyer said it really well. He says, Jeremy, they don't need a podcast. He's ribbing at me. You don't need a journalist podcaster to know where the bodies are buried. You know, they're the ODNI. They'll know. So this whole thing, he says, doesn't make sense.

This feels to me like they're just trying to get information. But, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm a little naive. I want, you know, I want openness. I want transparency. I want to, you know, put them with the people who willingly want to be, you know, put together. I thought it would give them some immunity. So like with Matthew Brown and with Dylan Borland, if they testify to ODNI, they already did, or Dylan already did with ICIG.

I figured it would give them another layer of protection. They're doing the right thing, right? Do you tell them don't go into a skiff? I don't tell them what to do. I tell them what the environment is. They wanted to give testimony. They wanted to take these steps to do the right thing. So it just becomes such a briar patch with these agencies and people and false friendships.

You really can't make a lot of new friends. Like I've learned that. And I have to do like background on anybody that's really coming. into my life. And it's a very weird thing. I just thought I was doing journalism on UFOs, but then seeing all of this and the value system

of some of the stuff that George and I have put out, we know that it's right on the cutting edge of, you know, you got to do it right. You can't mess up. Anyway, so that was the first thing about government intervention, but the other thing he asked, what did you just ask?

Well, Matthew Brown, but also how the movie came to be. Right. So the movie was, The kid, Michael, I was like, here's, well, Michael saw that there's a lot of little vignettes that I did, but I had never really put out full things on the footage. How did you find him? How did you guys?

He, you know, he called and left a voice message in an email, which is what I asked people to do because I just can't read all the emails. And so he was smart. Like he did it the way I asked. But I get, you know, probably like you, a lot of people want to help all the time. But you can't trust people. You know, how do you trust somebody coming into this? There has to be some sort of legacy of trust.

But I was like dying, dude. I was like working my butt off. I was filming, editing, weaponized. I'm not, I'm a horrible editor. Like, I can't do it as fast as other people. This kid's right out of AFI. He's super slick, got a great eye. He's slick.

Yeah. And my wife's like, you need help. You need help. You can't, this is not sustainable. You're working 24-7 on just this reporting with George. Need help. So I called him back. Such a nice kid.

Then I immediately regretted it. Pit in my stomach. Like I can't let somebody in my life. I don't know. Some of this stuff is sensitive. But he came on to be a producer and editor. He produces all the weaponized. So it's like over the course of like a year plus,

got to know him and his family, realized that he's kind of like me. Like he just wants to know as much as he can and thinks it's important. That's interesting that you really didn't trust him at first. Oh, hell no. I can't, man. I've been burned a lot.

Sure. So, you know, people would love to control. control, mine and George's reporting. Oh, yeah. They would love to do that. And we have evaded that somehow, you know, to date. So the kid, you know, says, well, I know you have a lot of footage. You never put out.

You know, can I look through it? And I'm like, okay, I've got this huge drive. It's an insurmountable amount of footage. He goes, oh, look, there's like a bunch of movies in there. So the whole idea for him was he was going to go through my, you know, 12, 15 years of footage longer than that. and because it was back stuff too and he was like I'm gonna make I can make some movies out of it I'm like good I'll never do it I'm already on to this thing you

should do it then he started actually seeing and hearing the interference like because he'd be on weaponized producing stuff you know I I'd show him some video or some calls just to inform him of the stakes of some of it and he's like dude we gotta show this. This is a First Amendment issue. This is a journalism issue. There's no reason why journalists like you and George should have this much. These many people during a time of war, badge contacts sitting down where agencies are like, you know, watch what you're doing or, hey, we're doing this UFO program and we, you know, we just want to get a lay of the land. And George is patriotic too, right? So there's a part of us that really wants the good guys inside of these agencies and they are

trying to figure it out. Some of them are trying to figure it out because they don't have access to the information like other agencies. So like with Congress, where we can help, we help. And so that's where the line changes from journalism to like activism. Like I'm definitely setting up hearings. Like they'll call me like red hotline phone. We don't have a hearing. Do you know any whistleblowers? I'm like that are willing to talk. So I've kind of become a liaison between people that have something to say and with, you know, Congress, but then also with agencies. Let me explain that before people go crazy, right? If you're Department of Justice and, so FBI, and you hear that there are these swarms and these flyovers on critical infrastructure and you are getting blocked out from that

information by DOE as an example, then let's say I get a call from somebody who has access to the Honeywell security systems and they're like there is a pyramid that lifted up out of this body of water and came over the base and we have nowhere to send it. We don't know what to do. We know we see in the media that the DOJ isn't getting this footage and I'm like, okay, look, I have some people in DOJ that I know are running a UFO program. I know you can trust them that there won't be repercussions. It is lawfully what they're asking for. Would you like to talk to these people? who I do trust and both parties say yes, and then I can link them together.

So that kind of goes beyond journalism to where I'm just trying to get, I try to do the right thing. Right. I'm relieved to hear that there's good guys in the system. There are. I don't know who's running things. It's clearly not Congress or the president.

Right. And they don't know either. So to give you an example, with this Honeywell footage, once I made that connection between the security folks and with the Department of Justice, before they could have a meetup, that footage of that object that came up out of the water,

that's what they said, and like, why would you do this whole thing as a ruse? Like, they're putting a lot on the line to make. It got confiscated, is the best way to say it, like out of that system, but there's a demarcation of who now owns it solely, and that's DOE, Department of Energy. So, and that is outside apparently the scope of some of the DOJ stuff.

Yep. So, because the national security stuff. So you just see that kind of thing happen. So that, that's been kind of the dance I've been doing is trying to get whistleblowers should come to me from the embryonic stage, vetting them, making sure they're not just messing with me to the point where I'll put them in front of the national security people of Congress, where they have to go through this grueling process in order to testify. So that's what I've been doing over a number of years.

How did that pyramid footage, how do they flag that? How do they even know that was happening? I don't know. I'm not really in depth with those systems. I just know that they had, so a bunch of these security people had access to it for a good duration of time, enough to call Batman and tell me about it, right? I mean, who do you call with that kind of thing? When you're seeing it, what do you write like a thing?

This isn't going to DOJ like they've asked? I don't know. So then what happened is all I know is that when they ended up going for it, it was whatever, taken or shut down by DOE. So only DOE has access to it. It's so hard because these are all people with clearance and careers. And there's the espionage act. And you know they're getting knocks on the door saying, you're going to be hung as a traitor. Well, so there is both badged contact and unbaged contact.

So there's official and unofficial questioning of people. I'll give you a concrete example because we're talking real outer space right now with this. I want people to understand it. Okay, so George and I obtained and released a piece of footage called Syria 2021 UAP. When we obtained that, we assessed it.

We did background. We found out over a good amount of time, a couple years, that that is a piece of footage designated UAP by our intelligence agencies that in fact it was part of a collection process on UAP like it's a in a special area we knew we had a real video that they designated UAP what department um well that that that gets that that gets murky because i don't know ownership at that time like who has ownership of it i was just curious yeah it was well it's it's clear footage it's out it's out in the wild oh it's it's legit yeah

I believe it is legit in that it does demonstrate instantaneous acceleration. But to give you an example, those title cards you see are replicated, but they're word for word what's in the actual thing. So what you're seeing is an analysis by the intelligence agencies of a UAP, an unknown that appears to be demonstrating instantaneous movement. Now, people have tried to argue it. I'm not like a perfect expert with this stuff, but there are people smarter than me that have done it online. You can see it shoots off visibly. First, if you're looking at it, it goes a little bit,

when it gets a weapons grade lock, it goes a little bit to the left, and then it shoots to the right. And how you know it's shooting to the right is the ground keeps going down as the thing moves to the right. So it's not like an artifact of the lens. You're tracking the ground

and the thing goes to the right. All I can say is our intelligence agencies, they did an extensive analysis, not just on that one sensor, and they determined that that was a UAP. It looks like a mushroom if you're looking at the thermal signature, and that it did demonstrate one of the five observables of UFO.

So George and I thought, okay, this is a public interest. We've obtained this. We vetted it. We're going to put it out. We go and we put it out. Next thing I know, I come to find that there is a guy who initiated that report. His name is Logan Lenville, right? He's one of these guys that talks.

He used to be on the UAP Task Force. So he got calls both official and unofficial, meaning like a badge contact with her like, what's going on with this? How did they get this? I have no idea. They must have good sources. We did not get something. We did not get that from him, but he was getting like a false target painted on him or

something. So our response was we're going to have him on weaponized because I know the guy. Wow. Anybody I know becomes a false target for things that George and I have taken. anybody George knows, right? So we want to get right. Like, you know, we would never, you know, we're good, I hope we're good journalists. We don't put, you know, sources and witnesses at risk.

So we had the guy Logan on the show and, you know, he told us, he said in the thing that he had both official and unofficial contact. We made it really clear. Well, just we didn't get it from Logan, so there you go. But the fact that they're trying to squeeze him and even ask him, what are they going to put out next. Where did they get that? He goes, I don't know. He did once ask me, though, like, you know, in a private conversation, like, who your source is, all this stuff? I go, are you kidding me? Right. Like, are you kidding me? So I said on the show, if I had answered

you, right, you were active, like you would have had, wouldn't you have had to write that up? And he goes, yeah, I would. Yeah. So everybody's like a coin, right? There's two sides to at least coins have three sides the truth is always the so the combination of the two sides is who people are you can work in intelligence you can be working in this field you can be my friend but i always know who i'm dealing with there is this and i totally understand it is that your job is to do your job so anyway that piece of footage it came out a lot of people said that we were pedaling bullshit again and it wasn't ua p and all this stuff and then low and behold, the government releases that exact piece of footage without all the number systems

on it. Right. Which is of zero value. If you don't have the numeric systems, you can't track it and understand asthma, altitude, all this stuff. So you're getting an underhand pitch from our government because they know they have to. I'm seeing that they're cropping in now a lot of footage. Yeah, we can't see the angles or the speed anymore. Yeah, or at least they're blacking out Right, like with Tic Tac and Fast, we don't see that anymore. Which is all the valuable numeric information. We need that for the trigonometry. We need that.

Absolutely do. And so my impression is that what we're seeing in these releases so far is the least that can be given. Sure, the president orders that there is transparency on this. However, is the president watching, like who's regulating what they have and what? what they're putting out. Who's even doing it? And I don't even know. But I do know it is so odd

that out of the hundreds of thousands of UAP videos much better than what you've seen publicly, right? That we're getting primarily the stuff that's already been out there in some way or the others. The last dump was all stuff we saw already. Was it?

Mostly, I think, yeah. I don't know. I just know that there's, it is so ironic out of hundreds of thousands of videos that would show UAP, that are designated UAP, that show the five observables, some of them, that were just getting mainly the ones that have already come out as if they're new, you know?

Yep. And so I don't know what to think anymore. I don't know who's watching the people that are deciding what to put out in each agency. And by the way, it's all coming through, probably Arrow, You know, it has a lot of say in it, which we know they've been totally disingenuous with the American public. They've demeaned and demoted and tried to harm whistleblowers all along the way.

Maybe they're different now, new management. But, man, their job is to keep secrets. So I just, I don't know what's going to happen. But I do know that if they don't start talking about biologics and reverse engineering, you have people like David Grush that are out there saying, I have direct knowledge of those. It was my job to find out they're going to run into issues. choose if they don't start telling the American public the truth about those two things. If it is true, I have no definitive way of knowing, but if it is true, they have to start

hitting on that. I've noticed that the narrative, the lexicon has changed from UFO to UAP, from aliens to biologics, non-human intelligence, and you use that lexicon as well. I hate it. I like UFO. I do too. So why do you use that? Yeah.

So that, I think very smart why people are using that. There's two reasons. Start with UFO. Hillary Clinton was actually one of the first people to say UAP, so in Jimmy Kimmel, many, many years ago. Wow, I forgot about that. Many years ago. Right?

And because internally, what they realized is that the UAP issue is all domain. It's space, it's air, it's seed, that that term not only is stigmatized UFO, Unidentified flying object. It doesn't describe the U.S.O's, the underwater. It doesn't describe things that go through all mediums. So they say all domain, like, how do we call it all domain? And they're like, well, UAP, unidentified anomalous phenomena. Used to be aerial.

Yes. Anomalous phenomena. So they're like refining the language. It is better. It's got less stigma. So like major publications, they don't feel silly, you know, doing UAP. Because that worked. That scam worked.

It did work. It did work. And that was our government trying to make a laugh factory. Yes. That's historic fact. So it did work. So I kind of like,

I'm of two minds of it. I hate it. Like I love UFO. Come on, this is called UFOs. But it is a much more articulated and thoughtful term. NIH, I think, is actually really smart. Because not just because the word alien is,

you know, has a stigma as well. because anything's going to be alien with the artificial intelligence way that it is right now, we know for a fact that there is a technological aspect to intelligence, that if we can build this non-human intelligence, it's a better term that I think doesn't create the stigma and is more encompassing non-human intelligence. Because these things that are flying around, we don't know.

Some of them, they look like they got beings on them. But these could be cybernetic organisms, printed flesh, that all work off of a hive mind. That's right. I mean, you've heard those stories where they come in contact. It looks like an alien, but you get close. It's more like a robot, and it's like AI or something. So trippy. I never met one.

I haven't either. Yeah. So I think that's the terminology difference. So we're allowed to use it. I don't just don't want to play into the hands. Right, because your idea is that we're being indoctrinated into a certain lexiconicard call. Yes.

And look, we might be. I don't know. Ultimately with this, it's so forward moving. But I can tell you the parts, the mechanics behind it are not orchestrated. Like, we have fought tooth and nail to get every single piece out. There isn't like some group of people like the David Grush and Elizondo's. Dude, they're not working together on this. Like, if you knew them as people,

You've seen what have happened in their lives. You know their families. This is not, unfortunately, some coordinated disclosure. I don't believe that. I told you, I've been naive before, but I don't think I'm naive now on it. I think that we're in a different environment. And I think we're saying things out loud we didn't before. I think our technologies have gotten better to the point where pilots can't be ignored

what they're seeing and what they're recording now. That started with the Fravor incident. Yes. Yeah. So I just feel like, or popularly, it started the favor incident. So I just think we're living in a different time and they're playing catch-up and having to admit certain things. But I don't know that the language is really being weaponized against us.

I just think they're better terms. Biologics, because it's like, you know, we don't know. Are they printed machines? We don't know. I don't know. Maybe there's people that do. There are people who do. Who know?

I would suspect. Some stuff. In the movie, there's an interesting tension where it's one scene you're on the phone with Lizar. And he's telling you, he's telling you to stop. Yeah. He's saying stop pushing. And then you're on a Zoom call with Fravor. And he's saying, release it all, send them to jail, do it.

Yeah. So you have material that would put powerful people in jail. Not just material. Like I have documented a lot of the interference. you know, throughout my life. And I have been, and I've given it to my lawyer. And so a lot of stuff happens behind the scenes. So a third party does have that.

Oh, yeah. Your attorney has that. Yeah. I'm not talking just like files, like images. I'm talking like when there has been interference on journalists and attempts at entrapment, which apparently are legal, I want, I wanted the legal process to know about some of this. When you had OD and I run a nine-month thing that was disingen.

I think that should be public. Yes. Right. Because you've, yeah, and we'll see how much of that becomes public. So a lot happens behind the scenes. Not everything is about journalism and to be reported on. A lot of this is like personal life stuff. That was a very hard time in my life.

So we were, I'll give you a concrete example. My family had to meet with an agency because of a verified, actionable threat to my family. that's as far as I want to go, but like to my family, right? So they're telling me about the threat. And there are implications of who was behind that threat. That is a horrible thing for your family to have to go through. That changed the dynamic of how my family has to operate because of that. And it's not just like somebody whispering it to you or you get some email.

This is a federal agency giving my family safety protocols. not cool no not cool so so that was like a very hard time for me so did that cool down yeah i feel like i've done everything in my self-defense as possible which is making sure that it is known within federal circles like i um all of it's documented and so i feel like um as a private thing that is something the movie showed because he turned the camera around wanted to show the interference we were getting Because to Michael, the biggest proof about UFOs, he always says, is during wartime, he saw the meetings. So during wartime, you've got all these federal agents on you and George. It just doesn't make financial sense.

You have terrorists coming to the country. You can't even put one federal agent on, right? So that was the biggest proof for him, hey, something's up. So he turned that camera around instead of making a movie about all these UFO things and says, you know, this is an element of protection for you and your family. That's what he told me. It is. And I bought into that. And I think it did to a degree because it's film.

Not everything's in the movie, you know. So when you're talking about the movie, yeah, Lazar really was talking me off the ledge. You know, he was saying, look, I always said we should admit, admit this is real, that there are craft made by what seemed to be non-humans, that they have a technology that we can't replicate, we can't duplicate. but he says that's where I say it should stop. Just acknowledge it and move on. Right.

That was Lazars what he's saying to me in the movie. And I'm like, yeah, but dude, I've come to this point where I have to follow through with journalism, with George. Like you see us make a decision in that hotel room, but you have to understand that was a long time ago. We've been doing it. We've been doing it. We've been putting out.

Like people forget, I put out with George the Air Force disc. Guess what? our government also just put that out. Yeah, they did. Yeah, it's just, it's funny. So we show some clips in the film of some footage. That was just me doing my normal process. You know, digging in the desert.

You know, because you can't, you know, you have to, even if it's not, like, you have to be careful, even if it's not like real footage, like, I'm not having, if I get something, I don't know what's on it, I have to review it. I'm not, nothing's in my house, bro. You know what I mean?

So as journalists, we're protecting sources. we're protecting methods, we're protecting footage. What if it is damaging? Remember we talked about national security stuff? I'll be on the hook for that. So what you're seeing is you're seeing a part of the process that George and I go through.

It's tradecraft. Yes, I guess it is. But really, it's just I'm trying to do responsible journalism where I'm not just letting stuff out of my control. I'm trying to assess it and see if it has public value. Do I even think it has public value? Is it dangerous to people? And then choosing the stuff that would make the most impact

and getting it for public interest and getting it out to the world. So you're seeing me assess stuff. I'm not ever going to just put a bunch of stuff out when I don't know it's value. I don't know who it's going to hurt. I'm just not, you know, I don't know if that's journalism. I just ain't doing it. I'm not here to hurt people. So I am here to try to learn the truth about this as best I can

and share what I can with the world. That's what I'm trying to do. And George and I have done our best at it so far. So what you're seeing in that movie is stuff I'm reviewing. I'm reviewing it. And it took a lot for me to let Michael film over my shoulder on that. I got. But now you look at all that footage, what the government do.

All, I think, I think all of those videos are out now. They are. The actual hard copy, great. Then we've provoked change, man. You have. Keep it going. Keep it going. and footage will always come in.

Information will always come in. And over time, I think we'll continue doing our reporting. If we're not stopped or we're not, you know, get in trouble for it, we're just trying to do journalism in America under the First Amendment. Yeah, you're so careful. I have to be. Do you think they're hiding a lot of stuff behind the contractors? I know they are.

You know they are. Oh, I know they are. Yeah, I mean, you've had people come out and say it like how put off we're talking about. That is the method. That is the way. That is the way that you stop for your request. That is the way that you don't have to have accountability. And it's to the point where our own government is looking at it,

being like, what the fuck? We don't have control of this stuff anymore. Very famously, the Lockheed transfer was supposed to occur under Ossap, advanced aerospace, weapon system application program. And, you know, that's the thing. Everybody got confused with that New York Times article with ATIP and A-TIP and awesome. It's a little bit in the weeds here, so it's not so important. Everybody involved is a hero in my book. They have all tried to some degree, whether some of it be government mandated,

hey, we better tell the public a little bit about this. In my experience, everybody's tried to do their best to some degree to get stuff out. We've had UFO programs. They're acknowledged. That's a huge win. We were told nothing to see here move on, Project Blue Book. We killed it in 1969. That's it. All of a sudden, we realized, oh, no, we've been studying this ever since then. I'll tell you this, UFOs are considered higher security than weapons of mass destruction. And you have to ask yourself why, and I'm not saying that frivolously.

Ask George Knapp, we have been in official meetings where we have met people where their job is weapons of mass destruction related to UAP. We were taken aback. We're like, well, we've always heard that. This is why DOE is involved. Right, we always heard that. You know, why is that?

And it's the propulsion system themselves. If they can create so much energy to do what we think they're doing, what they appear to be doing, instantatious acceleration, possibly folding or warping, time space itself, the amount of energy needed to do that is so astronomical that is fundamentally a weapon. Look at it from like a, let's Simpsonize it, you know, like Bart Simpson style. Fravor did this wonderfully. You know, he says, look, if we have tick tax, right, what can we do? do. He's like, we can send it up over a country, drop it down from outer space, be back up in less than a second, deliver a dirty bomb, a nuke. No one will ever know who did it. So even just as a payload,

if we could ever harness the ability to replicate these craft, it's a strategic surprise, strategic advantage that every country wants. And that is the core of the secrecy from day one was always that we don't understand this tech, but we need to duplicate it before our enemies do. And that's why I know that is why we kept a secret for a long time. Problem is, cats out of the bag now. Because China and Russia have to be doing the same thing, right? They are.

And it's not me saying that. Like Dr. Lakatsky, who's the head of the UFO program for the Defense Intelligence Agency. I'd love to hear his story. Didn't he say that we got through the bulkhead of the craft? Yeah, we breached the whole. Breached the whole of a craft. So people ask, how can he say this?

And it's a legitimate question. Like, is that a sciop? Is that just like a lie? I'll tell you, I know him. George has known him for over a decade. He's a patriot. He is the exact kind of person that you would want in a role in our intelligence agencies because he does not break from the fold.

He's only saying what he begged and asked for to be authorized. he wants to take pride in his work, man. So he went through the dopser process and he says, here's the scope of the books I want to write, which is, by the way, probably the biggest disclosures we've had about our government doing this stuff

is it's so nerdy. But if you read his books, you know, if you can conceive of what he's saying, he's told us more about the US's investigations into UAP than I'm thinking than any other individual as far as the scope of it, right? But here's what he says.

said. He said, we, he says, I can admit that the U.S. government has one craft, one NHA, not just an unknown origin. Like, they don't know who build it. It has a technology far superior to ours. There's no intakes, no exhaust, no even place to store fuel by his own description through the DIA. And they put all this out and we breached the whole of it. That's about as far as he's gone with it. There is an admission from a top government official who I can tell you is being genuine. I mean, of course, people will create conspiracies because they don't know him in that way. He is trying in the sunset of his life to tell people as much as he can.

And he is not a big proponent of disclosure like you and I might be. He comes from this cold war mentality of like you can't tell your friends without telling your enemies. Of course. So it takes a lot for him to get there. He feels it's important. We know that much. Now, you've had people like Hal put off, say we've got more than a dozen just in the U.S. That's a guy that would know.

Do you think he's just making that up? You know, is that a government conspiracy that he would say that? Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But I just know he's not the only one singing that tune. And they're not all coordinating with one another.

There's friction amongst all these people. That's interesting. Do you think there's friction among the contractors? There is definitely questions about which contractors got what. Yes. And that's why Lockheed was, and this is a documented transfer attempt. The vice president of Lockheed Martin tried to give technology. And we're talking, we don't know who built it, but it ain't Russia, China or us,

to the OSAP. and that transfer got completely denied. And my understanding, it was from the head of science and technology of the CIA at the time, Glenn Gaffney. Now, that can be argued, did he actually, did he himself block that transfer? But it was his office and his department. So there you have a documented attempt at an HI technology transfer that got denied. what other corporations have craft, have aspects of the technology,

and how come they're not all working together with the brightest minds? They can't transfer it back to the government because then we find out. It's got to stay. I don't know. But that was Bob Lazars gripe the whole way through. He says, I'm not the most qualified guy to be working on this. I'm probably the easiest to be discredited. It was like a show and tell.

He barely got to work there on that stuff. They were looking for a change, man. They were looking for any left-handed, you know, outside of the box kind of thinker to come in and try something that hadn't been tried before because they've been stalled a bunch of times. They've made progress, I hear, a little bit over time. But the throttle is the material science, the best of my knowledge, the throttles, the material science, we can't replicate the alloys and the skins and the, even the systems themselves

or the fuel sources is how I understand it. So Bob never said that we had craft that we were testing. No, he did. He said he saw a low performance test, but there's so many holes in that that he acknowledges. Like, to give you an example, they displayed to him that they were in communication with the pilot it through a radio. And Bob says, how is that even possible? Because if you have a bubble of space time,

a gravitation, you're not radio waves going to get in and out of that. No. So apparently, according to his understanding, they did these low performance tests because they had ripped out one of the reactors or something. You haven't heard about this? No.

So that's why they were doing these low performance tests. Now, you'd push that off and you'd be like, okay, cool story, bro. Except he brought people out. on multiple Wednesday nights, and I have talked to all of them that went out there, right, to see a disc flying over the mountains.

And they saw it. Yeah, and he did not win awards for taking people out there, I'll tell you that. Like, they were pissed. So the truth falls somewhere in there that we have, okay, we definitely have craft,

and we definitely have been exploiting them for what they call derivative technologies. That I am 100% on. I have personally, all this time I've gotten to the point where that's not for me a question mark anymore. The question mark for me is how far have we gotten? What is the limiting factor? Can we replicate any of this technology?

Like the triangles people talk about? They were doing sorters on a base with one of these triangles with the guy that didn't testify, but we had him unweaponized, David, Daniel Goccarell. So he saw us doing sorties with one of these gigantic, triangles around a military base. So we have something from that technology. What do you think about the legends, the stories about fiber optics coming from craft?

Phil Corso is really the root of that. He is. Right? But I feel like I debunked a lot of his story. Yeah. Oh, totally. But you think there is some derivative technology? I really don't know.

You know, if I listen to it. I know. If I listen to one individual that I respect, most likely we have figured out a lot of the alloys, like what they're composed of, but that we still can't replicate them with perfect atomic layering, and that's the throttle on it. I talked to somebody else who is in a position to know, and they're like, they're not ours. I'm like, what do you mean they're not ours?

They're just not ours. Well, who's piloting them? So I get different messages, and I just don't know the answer to. to them. I know. Yeah, it seems to all come down to the material science that we just, we're just not there yet. That is my, that is my best guess. And I know that we will get there someday. You know, the bigger questions are, are we being helped? Because if you've been paying attention, a lot of these aren't crashes. They're almost like discarded things. It's like you're throwing an iPhone into a cage and just saying, see what you can do with this.

They've been called gifts in some stories. Some people call them that. offerings, gifts. So who's the intelligence behind them? Is it us from the future? Is it aliens from another planet? Yeah. What is it? Who are they?

Yeah, I mean, if we're there in the conversation, right? Because we just got to the point in our society where UFOs are real. Yes. And I think we're solidly there. We're solid. Okay, so that's a huge achievement. It is. Like, you know, people have been seeing them forever.

So now we know, okay, thanks, Daddy. just told us they're real. It took 70 years, though. Right, right. Nice to know, you know, in the 50s when they were working on anti-gravity, then suddenly. But they were worried about it, right? So I think back then they were worried about other really hostile nations. Of course.

Right. So I'm not making excuses for it. I'm just saying, I understand why the campaigns were of dismissal and denial, where now, at least we've made it there that, okay, UFOs are real. But what are UFOs? Are they just craft? Are they like hard metal? That's definitely part of it.

But what are these intelligent plasmoids people are talking about? I was going to ask you, what are these orbs, spheres that are spiritual than we're seeing now. So you call them spiritual. I don't know. I'm not inclined to call them spiritual. I can just go off reports. But I mean, if you want me to theorize, man, it's like. Yeah.

If you're bending space and time and you've got some machine that can do that, I don't know what that looks like optically. You know, we might just be seeing like a tip of an iceberg above the water. There might be something much bigger behind that. And people seem to have this understanding that there's a consciousness element. Yes. With especially these orbs, these lights in the sky. I can't deny that. the reports all show that.

I don't know what that means. Is that just egocentrism where you're like, I'm calling in the, I don't think anybody's calling in anything. I think these things are always there. And then at times you can perceive them. Because everybody, they say they're summoners. I'm like, you get summoning shit, man.

Like, I don't believe you are. I think that there's a perforated boundary of reality and you are perceiving it. Chris Bledsoe can do some wild stuff, man. I hear about that. I've met a lot of these guys. Have you seen something with him? I haven't, but Gino has.

Yeah. You follow Jack Valet's early work from the 70s? To a degree, Jacques Valet. Fucking Jacques Valet. Yeah. So he talks about, we'll perceive these UFOs wherever we are in the culture. So in the 50s and 60s, it's a flying saucer. In the 70s and 80s, it's something else.

now it's a spiritual orb because that's kind of where the zeitgeist is going. Yeah, I don't know if I fully buy that. Like I used to think that UFOs were like flying saucers. That's all I knew. But you look at history, there's always been the variety pack. There's always been orbs, the foo fighters. There's always been cylinders, triangles, pyramids.

All the shit John Leaveshead. Very, all the shit John Lairson fucking still bothers me to this day. If he's right about people on the sun, And I am just getting up, you know. That's crazy. But yeah, I mean, look, I think the bottom line of it for me is I don't have any special knowledge that other people don't have. I've got special questions.

Like, I've been, I've gotten to the point where I know the right questions to ask when I'm in the presence of people that might have been working on some of this. Jock Valley one time came out to my ranch and this lasting impression I have of him. It was like the sun was going down and we had just driven out to this like, you know, raw I had and I'm like, hey man, just tell me what do you know for sure about UFOs? And he says, what I know for sure is you have better questions than I ever had at a young age. And you gotta like keep asking him, you know, because it was like he feels it's progressed so much. And here's what I will say though about UFOs is that I truly believe that.

So like back in the day, you know, the ancient Greeks thought that stars were, you know about this hummingbirds plucked holes in the firmament, right? And now we know about galaxies and we know about the universes, maybe expanding or whatever, we know about suns and exoplanets. So that difference between being the ancient Greek and thinking hummingbirds going up there and picking out the firmament to what we know about galaxies, I really hope the UFO thing. is going to be as big a conceptual shift for us. Like, I don't think it's just craft mother planets. I think that there is so much more to this mystery that we're not even asking the right questions. And that once we get a few answers,

we might just jaw drop, be like, we were like the ancient Greeks, totally misunderstanding. I think you're exactly right, that they can just show up and be like, you thought we were from a thousand light years away. We can't do that. We've been here the whole time. Right.

The argument that's already percolating in my mind right now is why would you buy or why would you build a Ferrari if you didn't want to go fast? Right. So why do these craft appear by their very nature to be able to travel amongst the stars if we didn't build them to do that or whoever built them to do that?

There's no fingerprint in our system. Like your brother told me that you and I should talk maybe about the TikTok because it is your belief that that's a Lockheed Martin technology. Yes. And I'm firmly in the other camp. And I would like to know why you believe that because I haven't heard everything. But if you don't mind, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I'm probably not educated enough to really sell it.

Or just the ideas. But just by going by memory, I think the trigonometry showed that it wasn't moving as fast as we were told. But I don't want to go on record as being totally skeptical. Right. I've just, I've heard it a lot. But I'd rather, I'd rather hear your take. Sure. Well, I'll tell you why that dissolved for me very quickly. First of all, it was a very depressing day for me.

I used to think that we had total control of these things. I used to think, oh, man, we really done it. American ingenuity. You really did? I did. Early on, I had this idea of reverse engineered crowd. that we just been hiding this shit and that we have made gigantic headway

and that there's some, you know, within the government there were some outsource contractors that really did it. And I was very sad the day when that was taken away from me that idea. Why? Because if they had anti-gravity

and this unlimited energy, they need to share that. Exactly. That'd be bullshit if they're not sharing that. Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah, like that would be bullshit. Yeah. And it would slowly, completely change the world,

that we would have to build different infrastructure. I don't think it would happen overnight. No, but we wouldn't have war anymore. With free energy? Yeah, that would be the hope, right? That would be the hope. Yeah. We'd still have a war, but still, you know.

Yeah, yeah, but it'd be the hope. And so now I see your point of view there, and yeah, absolutely, it'd be complete bullshit. But there was this part of me that it was just, at least it explained it, you know? Yes. And then I was in a situation where, which I don't, for a person, I don't want to get too much into it, but I was satisfied

with the idea from people that know that if it's big, it's silent, it is not ours, that we don't have that tech. And it kind of made me sad because I thought how cool if we did. Maybe it would percolate out. Maybe the world would get better from that. Then talking to more and more people involved in these programs. I've been pretty high up on the food chain, dude. And I always get to that stopping point, don't kick a sleeping dog. I think that's why he named the movie Sleeping Dog. Yeah.

Because I've been told that, like a ton. It's like they practiced that line, you know, like, don't go too far with it. That's kind of scary. Yeah, and I don't know what they're afraid of. It's like the boogie monster. It's like something in the closet. What would be so bad about us knowing about the nature of reality itself that maybe we're not alone in the universe?

Maybe we're not the most advanced technological civilization. Like what is the big fucking fear that people have of knowing about the natural world? I know great white sharks exist. That's why I don't jump in the ocean that much. But at least I know. Yeah, at least I know. Well, what do you think happens to just a normal person if disclosure happens? I'm a teacher.

I wake up in the morning. How is life different? Well, what do you think? I mean, do you think disclosure has happened a little bit, right? I think so I'm very distrustful of the government very very much so

I don't I don't see full disclosure ever coming yeah I really don't not as long as we're in a world where we're constantly bombing each other right you just can't let

China know what you have they have no motivation to disclose shit you know the underhanded pitch let you know what all they need you to know because people are seeing them okay they're real but but that's the cutoff I don't see it happening at this point. I'm annoyed at myself because if I'm running Lockheed,

I'm not telling you what we have. Right. I'm just not telling you because then China is going to have what we have. We can't do that. We need an advantage. Right. So I'm torn between patriotism and wanting to know what's going on. Right.

And I don't know where to fall. Right. So, okay, about the TikTok stuff. So I've been exposed and so how's George Knapp to a lot of the technical information about what they observed over those course of weeks. So I told Commander Fravor before he was public that this story is going to get out. Like it's too big a story.

It won't be from me, and I kept my word, and it won't be from me, but that story will percolate, it will get out. Look, if I found out, I did the Ned Day. If I found out about it, then I'm just some weirdo with a beard and tattoos. Dude, other real journals, I've got to find out about it. I said this to him, like,

on he kind of laughed laughed me off said it's not that important he knew it was important um so because of george's position where he's as a great journalist who's got a lot of trust with people you know we've been exposed to some of it we tried to submit to congress one time um a technological report of the tick tax that would kind of answer some of the detailed questions about that and you know we couldn't i'll just say we couldn't submit it to congress in a lawful way So we were unable to get that on congressional record. Wow. The DIA did a bunch of reports on the Tic Tacs because they were studying it.

It was the first thing they were studying. Ah. But the thing is, when you're a journalist, you obtain and then how do you release? You have to be very, it has to be lawful, dude. So we tried to get Congress to get, I'll say to get Congress to get a report that we are very familiar with. they were unable to do so. They were stonewalled.

I'll say they pretended like it doesn't exist, the DIA. We can't find it, right? Right. We were fighting to get this out to the public. What you can take to the bank is Commander Fravor is the guy that chased the Tick-Tac. So he saw it with his own eyes. Was the mission to chase that Tick-Tac or was an accident? Both.

So what happened was he's out on a normal training mission. he's over at another point and the guy calls him up and says, what weapons do you got on board? And he's like, what weapons do you got on board? He's like, this is like a training mission. It's like beautiful day.

It's like nothing going on. So he's already, he made some joke. He's like, I got a catam nine if you got a sledgehammer. Like basically, you know, I got nothing.

You got nothing. So they're like, they task him to go out to a point and they go out and they didn't give him any information. So he thought maybe when he, when they saw this, um, circular, disturbed part of the water at first, he thought, was it like a down, is like something

sinking? Like, what's going on? And so as he gets closer, he sees this little tick-tack, you know, down by the water. And he said like a ping pong ball in a glass in a glass. But, but, but-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-h. He said, it was just fucking insane, you know? And so he goes, I want to see what that is. And he dives down.

As he dives down, it starts, it notices him, first of all, like, turns its nose and then starts mirroring his exact flight path. And then it came up next to him and then like that. And he goes, you could only see it move because it was just like disturbance of it moving. So you could see it go. But it was just absolutely beyond imagination for a guy that flies some of the fastest planes. Right. And a guy that by the way protected Los Angeles during 9-11, it's a very trusted.

Oh, yeah. no war nerves or anything like this. Nope. The dude had a really good visual on it. And he goes, where to go? And the controller is like, you're not going to believe it, Commander. It's at your cap point. And that was like miles and miles away.

We've tried to calculate the time as almost instantaneously. We're not sure because of the way the radar works. But also that was an encrypted cap point. It was almost like a game of cat and mouse, like it knew. Like it knew. Yeah. So he wasn't going to shoot anything down. He didn't have any hot missiles.

But when he saw it, his curiosity, where other people were a little bit terrified about what they were seeing, he went and really went to go see it. Now, there's a lot of questions that raised from that. So original reporting, you'll have heard that there was something under the water. Right. Now, that becomes this big debate. there was an object that appeared to be under the water. What was this thing doing? Well, I'll tell you, it wasn't the only one.

So there were weeks of stuff up in above 80,000 feet, which they really didn't want me to say for a long time because for some reason, that's a scanned volume of the spy one. Right. But it was above 80,000 feet. So space. So that's a vehicle that changes domains from space to air to sea. It was coming down.

And now I talk with some of the people like Kevin Canuth who did the studies on the on the speed of it dropping down But by all accounts that I know, whatever speed it was dropping down defies our Understanding of how that can occur and it doesn't disturb water right so the tic Tacs we never saw go into the water What happened was was all these ones were loitering at two different altitudes and this is I believe over the course of two weeks some of the controllers were seeing them up So they knew this was an area of interest, but they just didn't have like the gas or the time to go out there, right? Also, this is a training zone. If you see a black project, let me get to that with who sees it next, okay? So they go, this thing was going down.

And the words that were said to me before this was a famous public case was docking. That was the choice word. Now, they meant like a Chi charger, like an air, like it just seemed to be hovering over this thing. Now, the disturbance of the water, it was in a circular pattern. but the thing that appeared to be under the water appeared to have a cross shape, whatever, whatever. There appeared to be something under the water

and these things coming down and hitting over it. Again, it wasn't one Tic Tac. It was many. And that's what people don't know. I don't know. I could go get a more accurate assessment. I mean like three or like ten?

A dozen. A dozen. Or more. Wow. And I always am so afraid of miss speaking. me go back to my notes on everything. It's multiple. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely, definitely.

But it was something that was occurring for a duration of time. So you have to ask yourself, what were they doing? Like, what was the mission? What was the purpose? And that's what killed about this UFO stuff. They were never looking to be seen, right? This is something that was occurring that was obviously a job. Like, there was something going on.

It drives my mind crazy because, like, what's under the water? Is that like a refueling? Like, sorry, I keep hitting the microphone with my beard. You know, like, what's going on? I think a lot of answers are under the water. I do too from all reports there. And now you remember I brought Senior Chief Wiggins public because we had a piece of footage that George and I put out

and I found out by his presence on that ship. I know everybody on that ship. I get to know people and they'll tell me who I need to go talk with. So I found Senior Chief Wiggins through a buddy of mine in the Navy, higher-ranking Navy guy. And, you know, he admitted to me. There's nothing wrong. He admitted to me he was there.

He saw the whole thing. And then he came forward and talked on weaponized. We brought him forward to Congress. He, you know, there is footage. He saw TikToks one coming up out of the water. I mean, it's like there's something going on in the water, right? So that's all I know. But here's what happened next with the TikTok.

So when you know Commander Fravor, you know he's like a head of the black aces, man. That guy answers to nobody. You know, he just does his own thing. So he sees his buddy, Commander Underwin, would and he was about to go do the next flight he's got a full tank of gas he's a whizzo so he um his job is to record shit right and he says this is where we saw it it went to the new cap point which which baffles them because it if it was and it was actively jamming their weapons or their their radar systems it was yeah they don't like saying it anymore i guess like top brass told them don't say it anymore

is my is what i'm thinking because that's an act of war but if you look at my original interviews with them, they say it out loud. So there was active jamming and that is an agress that is considered in their world an act of war, an aggressive maneuver. They made that very clear. So whoever it was had a technology that was able to effectively actively jam. So then he sends out his buddy underwood and his call sign is nuts by the way. You do you do the math. So and and and David sex Fravor, by the way, is his call sign? It is?

Yeah, yeah, come on, these Navy guys, man. Sex favor and nuts, man. Okay, so nuts goes out and, you know, he picks up the target, right? Where Fravor said it would be, or in that vicinity, and he's just flipping through

every optic system that he has because it's like collecting data to bring back to the Intel guys. So he does all that, and why we know it as the Tic Tac, is because he comes back for debrief, and they go, So what would it look like?

What's going on? They put it up on this big screen, and he has to say something. And he remembered airplane, the movie. And he remembers that dude saying, I don't know, it was like a shape like a Tylenol, but, you know, has like wings. And he's like, I can't say that. He's a big fan of like old 80s movies. He goes, I'm sure, it looked like a Tick, it looked like a Tick.

So that's how we know it as the Tick-Tac UFO. Oh, my God, that's so funny. Because he didn't want to say the airplane thing. So anyway, so he comes back. and he does all that and it baffles them man this footage kind of went around in little circles for while i'd always heard about it but it was you know without soliciting i don't know how you get it right because none of these guys you know but but it was it was kind of showing up in these little groups of people that's how it kind of got this lore because they did at some point have a VHS tape that was

going through pilot circles um anyway somehow mysteriously that footage did make its way back to the internet right in time for a coast-to-coast show that George and I had the day of a Coast Coast show. It was like people listening and watching and knowing that I wanted to see that footage because it appeared online and we were able to point to it. And that was way before it was a public case. You hear us on the radio kind of dancing around it. We reported on it twice before it was part of the New York Times thing. Right. So basically I said to Underwood, hey man, how do you know this isn't ours? You know, because it would be really cool. In some ways, it'd be cool if it was ours really shitty. They've been covered up. Right, right.

You know, it's not ours. And he goes, I said, have you ever seen a black project accidentally? And he's like, it's happened. And I'm like, so what happens when you see that? And he goes, oh, he goes, there are strict protocols. You come in for a debrief. You sign an NDA. You are not to talk about this.

Experimental craft by this corporation or that corporation, you're not to talk about it. Forget about it. So that's why he could only say to me, it's happened, you know. But there are protocols for that. Sure. So you're in an area where it is dangerous to be operating experimental technologies in the middle of the ocean, right? Doesn't feel to me like a proper planned thing.

No. It's actively jamming our weapon systems, which you know is very dangerous, how it's been described to me by them. That's also not a thing. I either forgot about that or didn't know that. Right. I don't know. They kind of have stopped talking about the active jamming.

I don't know if he said it in Congress, Fravor, but if you listen to the original reporting that I did not, they say it with their own mouths. Underwood talks about active jamming, talks about, and Fravor, you know, this circular disturbance was there was some appear to be an object under there, which we would call a USO, you know? So that's another strike against that it's something that's ours

is that there's no protocols. None of them were ever had to sign an NDA about this, right? this is something that just happened. Why wouldn't they have to sign an NDA? Because it's not a known issue. It's not a known, they just went out on it. There was nothing secret about it. Because there's been no ramifications against Braver, right?

No, no, no, zero. But the nail in the coffin for me was in Congress, and here's what he said publicly. He says, I don't know if he said my current employment. He has a classified job right now. Okay. His job would allow him to understand what our highest capabilities are right now and what they're going to be in the future.

He has a very, he has a lot of responsibility in his new job, Commetta Fraber. So he's really still trusted. Extremely. Oh, yeah, Fraber. It's a confusing story to me. It is very confusing. But he didn't do anything wrong. No, he didn't.

No. He didn't leak anything. thing. He didn't go talk outside of school. His name was brought into the public, like I told him it would be. Not by me, by other people. But he's telling you release information of the people in jail, and yet he's still distrusted. Well, he would, oh no, what I told him wasn't about his story in the movie. Yes. I was telling him about how agencies have done what I thought at the time were super illegal things. Yes.

Like, for example, targeting Matthew Brown with words like counterintelligence on American assets, like targeting Dylan Borland with words like espionage to me. ODI and I saying those words to me about my friends and lying about them,

I thought that was going to get them put in jail. Fuck, I was naive. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Super naive. You are. Apparently, it's okay to do these things to people if it's our government and not other

governments. Yes. So I've never told, and I'm not going to right now, that there is another story to all that. I was very naive. So in that movie, when you see me all bent out of shape and I'm talking to Fravor, I thought if I documented everything and these crimes I thought were committed against whistleblowers, if I brought them to light internally that people would go to jail for what they did,

boy, was I wrong. So anyway, back to the Tic Tac. Fravor, he's in Congress. And he goes like this. He goes, we didn't have that technology in 2004. We do not have that technology in 2024, whatever it was. When we testified, he goes, we're not even conceiving to work on that technology for 50 years. You know, he's like, it's just like, it was.

It wasn't ours in 2004. It wasn't a private contract. So that's another kind of nail in the coffin that whatever it was was outside of our purview. So I'm there. That's where I'm at right now. But I am always open to learning new information and having gotten it wrong, I'll be the first to raise my hand and say I got it wrong. Same. They've excluded.

I mean, I've met with, I'll say George and I have met with a federal agency in an official badged meeting with a number of people at the table. And it was conveyed to us that we have excluded Russia and China from being fabricators of the TikTok as well. And one more thing. In 2019, George Knapp and I reported on a swarming of 10 Navy warships in 2019 off the coast of California where there was multi-types of footage that we obtained and released. It was thermal, so the black and white from the USS Omaha. It was the green, so you say, night vision to a PBS 14, which does not have a boucade triangle-shaped lens.

I have one myself. The camera itself, then they moved the goalpost, and they were like, the camera itself had a triangular-shaped lens. Nonsense. I know the people that were involved in that. That's okay. Pyramid in triangle by angle of observation, pyramid in shape. I didn't make that up.

That's in their own documentation. George and I put out a couple slides that talk about triangle by angle of observation. Internally, they have more sensors than you're seeing little glimpses out. Sure. So they believe there was pyramid in shape over, that was USS Russell. Then we had deck footage, which is very important. It looks like... Deck footage.

So just a dude with an iPhone on a deck. So I was able to somehow be the receiver of many different types of footage. I got radar footage sent to me, right? So you can see multiple targets at one. I think there's 10 at one time surrounding a ship. And I put out the radar footage that was from inside the bridge, right? And it's not an easy thing to obtain, especially when you're not asking for it. Right.

Okay. Then we've got the thermal footage where you see the egg-shaped object. You know, heard about that one. It's got no rotor wash, no nothing, no heat signatures coming off of it. They say splash, splash in the video. They're not saying it made a splash. They're saying that means it went under the water. I'll tell you they did deploy a submarine to try to look for it.

They did. They did. And they did not find it. Hopefully that'll be in like people like Jay Stratton's new book. I hope he talked because he ran a lot of that investigation. Yeah. He had people on the ships for UAPTF the day after it happened. I've met some of the federal agents who are on the ships.

I've sidebarred them and tried to ask them individually, what was it? No, we know it wasn't China. We know it wasn't Russia. So what happens is in a hundred mile radius, 2019, there's a swarm of our Navy ships. And they're doing workups for deployment. And all of a sudden, there are these acrobatics of all these things. And I've talked to kids on the ships who were just like standing out there. I told you I had deck footage that I put out, which to me I put out last because

the least visually understandable and important, but it's like inky darkness, but you see lights. Now, why was that important? Because you have thermal, you have infrared, you have radar, but then I have finally, I've got somebody just with an iPhone. You know, you start asking around, people are like, I got my iPhone that was, you know, I was out there on the deck with my iPhone. Okay, cool. So all of a sudden I received something like that, validate where it's from using the GPS data and the timestamps. And like basically why that's, important is because these things were self-luminous. So because people tried to say, you know, all this different stuff about what it was or was it wasn't, but these things were self-luminous.

You could see them in that last bit of footage. So you've got four types of footage, one being radar. You've got all these witnesses that have testified or talked to me about it. George, I mean, at this point, dozens and dozens and dozens of people. This was not an isolated incident. It's just the one that somehow we obtained a ton of footage. These swarms were happening a ton. You know, four or five, maybe six cases that have been reported to me about this, but why this was so important,

because we could provide the public with actual physical data, proof, visual evidence of it. And it was inside these government investigations. We put out a couple slides to show their analysis of it. The coup de gras for me was people said that it was the Bass Strait cargo ship that was like launching these, by the way,

they're about, you know, maybe 10 feet like that. You can tell the profile of it. You know, they weren't small. Right. So people said,

and even on Wikipedia still says the Bastrait cargo ship, was a Chinese ship, you know, it was launching things. Okay. Well, Bastrate was boarded the second it got into Long Beach.

And by the way, the ballet was still going on when Bastray was in port. People forget that. And I know some of the agents that boarded the ship. They found nothing. and here's the coup de grace.

I found the one sailor whose only job during that event was to watch the bass straight through all the visuals to make sure it wasn't launching or landing anything. And he came on weaponized by voice and told he wishes that he could report to us that we knew who was launching those. And he couldn't because they weren't coming off of the bass straight. But if you go to Wikipedia, I believe, it still says... Probably.

Yeah, it's a total propaganda bullshit. Of course. Yeah. Because they don't know where they were coming from. They were coming from the West. There's nothing over there but Hawaii, man. What were they launching off of? Where were they landing?

If they were these autonomous... There's nothing there. There's nothing there. So somebody's got a pretty cool technology that can do and perform in just fun ways. And it's not China. So many resources were spent. on figuring out.

So it's not China, it's not Russia, and unfortunately, it's not us. And that would have been comforting, but it's not us. And it's been happening more and more. So more frequently? It's hard for me to say more frequently because I've told a lot of people

not to call me anymore. I was like, you know, that's cool. That happened on your mission, but probably shouldn't call me about that stuff. I fear now that I'm on so many radars that anybody who speaks out of school is going to be penalized. I mean, I've had people in the Navy who have nothing to do with the UFO topic who are just my friends who have been questioned. It's a horrible feeling.

I would only talk to you on Signal. Even Signal's not private, man. But it's just, you know what I mean? It's like there have been too many false targets on people. I told you a couple of them today, like my buddy Logan and everybody suspects. that surround me and George of like, you know, they really want to know how stuff gets to journalists. And, you know, if it's the end of my career,

that's the one thing I will protect. And luckily, everybody's got it wrong so far. Everyone's got it wrong. There's been a lot of, yeah, there's been a lot of attempts to try to close that window and it had the reverse effect, Meaning when people have been shook down or they've been like threatened like what do you know? It's just caused more people to come to me and George in person.

And I guess that's a positive thing. It is because you're the first line of defense. Yeah. Tell the Matthew Brown story. Smuggling him. Smuggling him. That was fun. Yeah.

But start where you made the decision. Right. how did we make that? It's like a heist movie. Like you're in a room like here's what we're going to do. It sounds so cool. You're going to do what? No, no, no.

It's going to work. Yeah, we were and we did not trust each other. Me and me and Matt. This is like the story of like, we did not trust. Really? I was sure that some guy wants to talk with Congress is just using me to like make me look like an idiot. And he had no, like he was trying to figure out who he could. trust.

He made some slip-ups at the beginning, like trust in fake journalists, you know, journalists that are really there will hurt you, people that you can't trust with your cat's name, you know what I mean? You can name them if you want to. I don't want to give attention to people know my sentiments. Look, at some point, I'll probably have to tell that whole story and I'll do it in the right way. Right. Just basically Matthew Brown was figuring who he could trust.

Just in one or two sentences, what did Matthew find? Very little. It was very small, and he's such a patriotic dude, and he's such a thinker. But what he found was a report or what was the... Like a power point. Like a briefing. Yeah, briefing on something they were calling Immaculate Constellation. And because he was tasked at the time with sorting and filing and cleaning up

basically a digital archive. He's like, the fuck is this. It's like talking about UFOs and it's talking about us watching the Russians have a rendezvous with a known, possibly a known you know, manifestation of a craft over sea.

Like, oh, I mean, it was just like pretty wild. But there was like, you know, there was evidence inside of that briefing. And it's not something that should, from what I understand, it's not something that should have been filed where it was filed. So he kind of like reads through it all because you've got to know what you're looking at, right? And it's fascinating.

It is. And his job is to file it. It is. So he needs to know what's in it, right? So what really kind of stood the hairs up on his arms was, you know, he's like, this definitely shouldn't be in there. So it's about, you know, it's about how we're watching UFOs interact with other nations and how we're have passive tracking of UFOs and active tracking.

And he's like, well, this is pretty crazy. And I don't know at that point, I think David Grush had come out. So it was on everybody's radar, right? So, you know, he's thinking, is this a trick? Is this like a test? Like, what's going on? But he quickly learned it wasn't because he went first to his boss and then his boss's boss. And it was very nonchalant.

Like, they didn't say much to him. And he didn't know, like, does he have to do a, does he have to sign anything for having seen this? And it just got really weird for him. And he felt very uncomfortable because he's so patriotic. because the world was asking. Congress was asking for Whistibos. It was asking for people. And he did not want to go public.

So he sees all this UAP-related stuff. But again, it's just a sliver. It was an operation. And I didn't just validate this through Matthew Brown. George and I did extensive work to figure out, is this a real program before we bit? Right. And to our satisfaction, absolutely.

It goes by different name now. But it was called that at one time. And it was like they were working on this document. It was like a working document. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it was like very strange. So when Matt, you know, ended up getting to me and George, my, I'm just like, dude,

someone's going to take me for a ride. Like I like very little trust. And he also didn't know who to trust. I guess he had a better sense because he saw our work. But, you know, getting through to Congress can be very hard because the process, who you have to ask to get there can really expose people. Like, what do you do? What are you breaking from the fold?

Don't you like your life? You want to stop working for the United States government? I mean, it could get really messy really quick. So he had done everything that he could do, but to get to certain people, senators and congresspeople. At the time, I was working very closely to get these hearings going. So he kind of made a good bet on me that I would be able to get him in. But I was unsure how that was going to go too.

So what happened was I said, okay, I'm going in, meet me on this day. I have been authorized to have a full camera crew. So you're just going to roll with the camera crew. And if he's carrying a boom or something? No, no, no, he's walking with us, you know, but it was like, because also he's going in there with his face. It's one of the most highly, you know, monitored places by intelligence agencies as well,

because a lot of the leaks come out of Congress. You talk, ask any human intelligence guy, and they're going to tell you, or anybody in human intelligence, they're gonna tell you, the biggest leaks in American history have always come out of Congress. Like they're, you know, that's a thing for them. So they monitor this.

He's like, am I doing the right thing? I know I'm doing the right thing? How do I do the right thing? Meet this crazy bearder guy with tattoos, but he knows George, so he must be on the level, you know? And I was like, hey, but he wasn't with me. I'm just like, let's go in. I have like five scheduled meetings.

It's all for this filming that I'm doing. They're out of all these meetings, We're gonna start with somebody I very much trust. Has 100% of my trust. The only guy that said my name in Congress out loud when he calls him the spooks, or the suits, the two CIA guys at that weird hearing I told you about. Yeah.

Said do not say his name. They told Rep. Burchett, do not say his name. He is a security issue is what Birchett said publicly. They used different words about me. And first thing he did when he got to that microphone He said, I want to think my buddy, my pal Jeremy Corbell for bringing in documents and introducing us to whistleblowers. And somebody coughed Comey or whatever, Comer coughed while he was saying it. They didn't want me mentioned in that hearing.

Birchett did it anyway. So I really trust Burchett. Yeah. Why, just to keep your name out of the record? I don't fully know, but I know that. Because everybody knows you. I know. It was so bizarre.

They wanted to make it seem like people should go to Michael Schelleman. If you're a witness, rather than to me, it was two and a half months of bringing documents, having them vetted, working with Congress, getting up to that point. There's a part of the story I'm not telling which happened what happened the night before. It was absolutely mechanically planned. I submitted those documents the night before. I knew something was a little weird. So I actually brought those documents with me that morning.

And there was there, thank God, there was a watermark accidentally. It was a bad printer the night before it, like whatever hotel I was at. And it made this mark. I'm like, oh, man, it's dirty. That's no good. Thank God. Because that's a forensic evidence. Yes.

When they removed the top sheet and they started and they uploaded a blank page, you could see it was what I brought in that morning. they quickly, and I know who tore it off, I know what they said in the room, because that eyes in the room. They were trying to make sure that I was not the trusted person for whistleblowers

and that other people would be. And there's a reason that they were trying to do that. And that is the big rub, and at some point, another story, another time, why that's important. I have a question about that,

but I can't ask it on air. Okay, well, after, yeah, no problem. Look, it's very dangerous. If we're asking whistleblowers to come in to speak with Congress, you have to understand. There are people that are very worthy of your trust, but it is a viper's pit. When I have been on the phone with the staffers, they have put national security people on the call with me. They tried to get me and George into a skiff with our best evidence. I told them I will show the world everything that I got I want total protection in doing so

I will bring it in we will show it we will stream it in the in the hearing and I got if you're skiffed you're locked up I think so so that's why my lawyer said so what happened was I was told I said here are the terms George and I will come in we know these are identified as you AP to the public these are will come hell or high water these are coming out let's do it a professional way and we were offered to come into a skiff before you have to show what it is that you want the public to know and I got a call from a congressperson and they said to me heads up the people that are supposed to be in that meeting we're not even going to be there it's a trap they're they're inviting you in because whatever you bring into that meeting you will you will not

be leaving with it will be reverse classified correct yeah So, yeah, my lawyer shut that down instantaneously. Correct. But it's okay. It comes out anyway through journalism. We've released a bunch of it. No, but I think it's important for people listening to know the skiff is not your friend. No.

No. Is that DIA that got in the way there again? No, DIA has never gotten in the way, actually. DIA has never gotten the way to me on that. Oh, because of the files. Yeah. Who is setting up that skiff? You don't have to name.

agency. Yeah, well, it's complicated. It's not one agency. Okay. So when you're in this congressional setups, right, there's a bunch of interested parties that need to vet the people that will be talking. And sometimes I'm surprised with what agencies are represented in those Zoom meetings. What agency surprised you?

I think Homeland Security maybe they were. It was very surprising to me. There was a, they call them National Security Advisors and stuff like that. I think most agencies are represented. Here's something that really surprised me. I know we were going on a store and we'll get there, but what really surprised me was when I helped set up the last hearing. Okay, so you want like 14 potential whistleblowers and you're going to cherry pick like five of them. I said, okay, we'll play that game again.

I let everybody know this is a game and they might just be siphoning off information, but I trust some of these people. What surprised me was the one agreement that I made with the congressional group that I was working with is that Arrow gets zero of the information because I had zero trust for Arrow. They get zero of this. This is absolutely confidential.

Anybody that I provide you a one sheet on that I have them come in their shoot and tie and they sit there on camera to see none of those names get passed to Arrow, zero of them. or it's not happening. Yeah. So some of these people were reached out to by Arrow. Of course.

Yeah. So, and like, it's not the Congress people's fault. No. It's like they said to me, you know, we've got a leak. We've got a leak to Arrow. Like, it's, you know, it's not their fault. But that's how little you can trust when you start getting more and more people into the room of how they're handling it.

So, but they knew. The people that I brought forward, they knew that that was a potential, you know, even like senior chief Wiggins, you know, he's a single father. He's at one year away from his retirement. I mean, there is no good reason for him to raise his head above the parapet here, except for what he said, it's the right thing to do. Right. You know, and my dad would be proud of me, dude. You know, that's the right thing to do. So the problem is, is that he did get pressured after by arrow directly. And this is public. We did a thing with him on stage. We talked, we got to, you know, bring it out into the public. You know, bring it out into the public.

put it into the light. So what happened was they threatened him that if he didn't debrief with Arrow, that they were going to get Pete Hegseff to command it, which is like when you're in the Navy, that would be the top of the top. That is the top of the top. Sure, SEC DEF.

Yes. So their threat, not only, by the way, to him, to his commanding officer. Oh, Jesus. Was that if he doesn't, and he says, I respectfully declined, I've said everything that I need to say. I told the whole story under oath in front of Congress, done story.

I am just doing my job now. And why would they so desperately want him to come in and debrief to the point where they threatened him with the sec deaf is going to come, which is a bullshit thing. Of course. He's not going to come. No, he's not. Yeah, yeah. And we kind of knew that, but we just thought it was so crude away.

Now, I ask you, if he already testified to everything and he said it under oath, what could they possibly want to know? They know the list of everybody on that ship. They can hear some of the voices in the video that George and I put out. So that was a trap. They are trying to pressure him. So no Navy guy ever will come forward like that or come to Congress. That's what they were doing.

So that's kind of what you get like an overt kind of threat. But some of it's more like covert. It's just trying to make you uncomfortable. So the whistleblower protection is all nonsense. This is what really disturbs me right now about, you know. There's so many guys that are just not going to do it. Well, like, what are the whistleblower protections? Because we have Matt Brown, we have Dylan Borland, we have David Grush, you know, they're sitting there without help.

I mean, other than Dave is working, you know, in a good capacity right now with Congress. But it's like, what protections do you have? These guys can't go back to their normal jobs. They have to find a way to make a living. every group that said they were going to help them didn't i see the people standing up these funds for whistleblowers how about helping the whistleblowers that already need help right now who have already come forward it's like a charade dude i'm sorry i'm going to get a lot of heat for this but what is this scientific advisory panel you know who runs that is odn i the same odn i who ran that

nine month thing that i regretfully you know brought whistleblowers into open eyes but regretful now. So what does OD and I need this panel for? If they want the answers, they can go get the answers. First call I get from people on this panel is what secret stuff do you and George have that we could ask them questions about? Isn't that completely reverse? Like, give them data, let them analyze it for public good. Right. What do you need us for? I don't, I don't get it. I haven't really talked with everybody involved. I'd love to hear from each of them why they're participating in this panel, what they hope to achieve. If they can't look at classified information, what are they going to be given? That panel should have oversight of the Intelligence Committee,

no? I don't know, because none of them have clearances for that. So ODNI has oversight over everybody. OD&I is running the panel, the Scientific Advisory Board. So what are they... But Congress has no oversight over that. I don't know. I hope they do. Who do they report to? ODI and I. What does the ODNI need? What do they? need. I don't know. So I'm highly, I know people are going to be so mad at me, but I am. Why? Because I'm highly, because I have a lot of friends there on that panel, but it's like what, okay, looks good. You're like doing a scientific panel, you know, but like what does OD and I need? You don't think they have scientists? What does OD and I need of you? They need a public facing thing.

Right. ODI and I is using you. Yes. In order to message something. Now, positive look on this. Positive look is, okay, maybe they want to disclose some stuff and you guys. look through the evidence and come up with the conclusion yourself and oh golly gee like that's a positive thing i don't believe for one second that's not going to happen no odia is not looking to get i think they're doing a data collection just like they did for those nine months that they get all these scientists these people on board and they say what can you bring us to analyze and then it's it's a collection thing yes in my opinion now i'd love to be wrong and i'm not demeaning what they're doing some of my friends are on this panel then do good work but find out what you're going to be

analyzing. Did you advise them don't accept the physician? I advise nobody on nothing but myself man. I don't see 360 maybe they know a lot more than I do but it seems haphazardly put together. And what is the point? If ODNI is running it, what do they need you for? They already said they can't give them anything classified. So what do they need you to analyze? Now I'd love to find out Let's let this play out, just like the government releases. Let's let it play out a little bit. Let's see what they talk about. But again, if they don't talk about biologics and they don't talk about reverse engineering,

there you have David Grush standing up there saying, I am directly aware of biologics. Dude, non-human bodies, bro, right? And reverse engineering. Okay, so that's going to be a problem if America doesn't come clean on it. I hope it's a problem. Did David ever give you this? names?

Names of what? Of who he heard from? Well, David... I don't want to get him in trouble. Yeah, David... David has always... We need that guy. Yeah.

We need that guy. I found out some of the names not by David. That was like a leak to me from ODNI, which is really weird. Really? Yeah, bro. I was on the receiving end

of a whole bunch of shit that I never should have heard. I don't even know how you can trust that, but okay? Other than it's not just them telling me, it's like, how do I dance here? Odie and I told me, and I say Odie and I, because there was like good people in there and people that I'm not sure about. But in general, I heard about stuff specifics that I never should have heard about.

So for example, I went on stage in Oregon with Dylan, because let's get out in front of this again now. ODI and I told me about a program name called Rubik's Cube. What? Dylan never told me about that, but they were telling me that that was something that Dylan knew about. I asked him on stage, and if he didn't know about it, Dylan would think, I don't know about it. I asked him on stage, and he's like, I would love to be able to tell you what I know about that in full, but right now I don't know what the law is or that I'm restricted.

It was an obvious, yes. Wow. They told me that he drew, so he drew something for me and George in Vegas that was really what he saw. It was like this triangle craft that he saw. He never drew for us a pyramid power source with some sort of symbol on it. That was told to me by ODNI. A symbol on it?

Yeah, man. So I asked Dylan, hey man, they're telling me a bunch of wild. shit, did you ever draw these drawings? And again, it was like Stonewall, like, you know, Dylan has to be by the book, man. He has to be. They all do because we don't, I don't know what's sensitive or not, but you could tell by his answers publicly. And I asked him, I said, I'm going to ask you some hard questions. Is that okay? Just if you can't answer, can't answer. But I wanted to know. So what I'm saying is there was an inappropriate relationship where I was being told things to try to diminish or demean these whistleblowers, all of which I come to find out, first of all, some of them weren't true

about things. Like they said Matt Brown had made up the Immaculate Constellation stuff and that he had admitted that in ODNI. And I go back, I say, did you get it all recorded? He was furious. They said that he was racist and all this stuff. They were trying to get me and George to do their dirty work, to turn on David Grush, Lou Elizondo, Matthew Brown, Dylan Borland, even and Hal put off Jay Stratton. They brought everybody's name up to us. And now I get it, now I get it, which is that they were trying,

to my best assessment, they were trying to get us to go out and do the dirty work for them and say that all these people are out for themselves and they're all liars or they're lunatics. And it didn't work because what am I gonna do? Of course I'm gonna call these guys and say, dude, I just heard the craziest shit.

When I told Matt Brown that they said that he was like a Jew-hating racist, That's what they said. Right? When I told him that, he was at his buddy's wedding, he was Jewish. Right. They didn't know he was also part Jewish. It was so ridiculous to me that the way they tried to manipulate,

and this is what I thought with Fravor in the movie, this is what I thought would get some of these guys in trouble, was that they were manipulating journalists, telling them lies, which apparently is legal, and saying horrible things, and some of which criminal-sounding things, against some of the whistleblowers. I didn't know that was legal in America,

but apparently it is. For national security, sure. Right. Everything falls under that. So I know we got way off track you had said something. It's okay. We were talking about Matt Brown getting smuggled in. Oh, smuggled in.

Yeah, you got a good memory of that. Well, just to finish that story, that was pretty funny. So we don't trust each other yet and all this stuff. We're just like, who the heck's this guy? And I said, look, I'm going to get you in front of three that I really trust. We'll start with, you know, somebody I've known the longest. There was actually like five meetings, but there's like these three I want you to, you know, present your 60 seconds of what you got to say. Now, he didn't want to testify.

This was just getting the information to the people that were asking for it. They were literally asking whistleblowers to come forward, right? So how do you physically get a meeting and get in there without raising a billion alarm bells? Sure. So he's walking with the camera crew. We do the sit down filming and the first. place and I said, hey, so I've got a whole crew with me, but one of these people is actually a whistleblower. And the thing is it would just be you, me, and this person, if everybody else leaves,

are you comfortable with that? I think you want to hear what this person has to say, you know, three minutes, something like that. First one, absolutely. No hesitation. Clear the room. One guy came back in that was Matthew Brown, sat down. down said, this is what I know to be true. This is what happened to me. And I've tried to put it

through all of the proper channels. I'm not looking to testify, but you asked for people to come forward. So I'm now giving you my report. That was his report. And he gave it. And then I said, okay, we're going to go into another office. You know, what's my trust level? I said to my friend, what's my trust level. They're like, it's good to talk, but don't give them a document, right? Went into the next. Same situation. Sat down.

Everybody left, comes back in. We do that three times. Another person we gave documents to just to make sure they were circulating. And so that really built trust because I did get him in. They did take them seriously. And they did offer to always be there if anything awry happens. But again, we were far away from it being mentioned in Congress. that point. I had to go through with them and the documents and validate what Matthew Brown had

said. And I was able to do that, you know, to validate that not only was he in the position that he said he was in, but also that the content of what he was reporting on was an actual program. And you were able to validate. I was able to do that. So was George. Right. Because they know you're on to it at that point. There's some people that'll let you in that much. Yeah. So that's the Matthew Brown smuggling him in. And then we've really, I've tried to, Georgia, I've tried to make sure that he has a certain layer of protections. Because if you want to believe it or not,

I mean, he's gone public with it. Like, during this time period, I believe him. Yeah, he had a break in in his house while he was asleep with his wife. And all they did was spread out his wife's IDs, like to take a photo of him, smash his grandfather's ashes. You're kidding. Nope.

So that would be a covert harassment. We don't know who did it. We know who did it. I don't know specifically who did it. Yeah. Or what agencies would be involved. But clearly they wanted to send a message. Don't go forward with this.

You know, and he went forward to it. He thought it was important. Yeah. So I trust him. I know he's telling me the truth to the best of his. He doesn't have a big picture on all this, but he's got part of it. From the jump,

I always felt like he was telling the truth. Yeah. He always seems like he's just trying to do the right thing. He reported it right away. He did. And his supervisor said, don't worry about it. Dylan Borland, man.

He went into ICIG, right? This is a guy. Like, I know him very well now. He went in and did an official whistleblower ICIG, did drawings for them of everything that he was exposed to, which I now know because of what was said to me by ODNI, I now know part of it was a pyramid-shaped, I guess a power source with a symbol,

symbols on it or something like that. And so he drew that for OD&I. So if he's out here like a ruse, would you go into the police of the intelligence community? Hell no. Right. This is not a career enhancing thing. No.

And he'd worked a long time, high roles of responsibility. Dylan did and he thought this was really important. And he's had also these types of reprisals, these things that have been done to him. Just little messages. Yeah, man, some of it's gnarly. You can never prove it. Part of the thing is, you know, maybe they want you to look like paranoid or unhinged.

But, you know, I know a lot of these guys and they've all had issues that are not normal issues. But the biggest one was, Odie and I tried to say to me that he, you know, he's not. He drew something that he didn't draw. It was actually classified. Like a sensor system is what it was said to me. And they used a word with me espionage about him. And they were fishing to see if he ever drew me and George anything that he shouldn't. And I was like, lucky for me.

No, he didn't. But now I know what you're saying. And I'm going back. I went straight to Dylan. And I was like, does any of this ring a bill? And that, he didn't, he didn't not answer me like the other things. On that one, he goes, total bullshit. He goes, I wouldn't even know how to draw that.

And he got so mad about it too. Because think about it. So you got an OD&I guy saying to me, this is what he said in the skiff. What the fuck this guy's supposed to tell me what Dylan Borland said in a skiff, right? And then I get told that he drew some censor system. him and I went to him and I said, this is what, I want you to know. This is what they're saying about you. So they're writing a report. He got furious. And I have the text messages. He sent to the ODNI group goes, I want to know what you're writing in that. Because if I did that, show me the video.

Yes. Like, where's the video of me? Because otherwise they could plan this whole thing against him and fabricate evidence, which is what I think they were trying to do. And just to shut him up. Yeah, of course. So we made a big stink about it. Me, Dylan, and some other people. And, And they never let him back in to show him where he allegedly did this. Everything that he drew in the ICIG before the ODIN, I think, it was all filmed, man. So show us a journalist and George, show us all the evidence of where he drew this highly classified thing for ICIG that he mistook as alien technology. It was so weird, dude. What I saw was our government trying to fabricate,

I believe, fabricate evidence against a whistleblower. To put him in Leavenworth for 25 years. Or to just create a stress situation where he was paralyzed to move. I don't know if they had followed through with that, then all the evidence comes out, right? So I think it was more like a threat tactic. So I'll just tell you, I went to the,

in the movie you see me say, you know, people would go to jail for this. Yes. I went to the highest levels that, I could and talk with my federal lawyer and my family about this saying this is the evidence that I have of our intelligence agencies trying to set up whistleblowers. And I was sure that I was going to get a certain type of response. And I will tell you that I did not get the response.

I kind of got the response. Well, it wasn't the Russians or Chinese, right? I kind of got the response that if it's us doing these shenanigans then it's okay and that was disheartening. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. Weird stuff, bro. I just interested in the UFOs. Right? It's so simple. It's so simple. It's UFOs.

And now you've got cameras everywhere. Are they harassing you? Are you seeing the same agents? I'm not seeing him like dating them. I mean, like the same people show up. I'm wondering if there's a unit put together. Right, the watchers we call them. My friends and I was a joke.

You know, the odd thing for me was all the hearings. In the hearings, I had some guy come up and whisper in my ear. You think you're going to make it to the steps? Yep. That's why I had my buddy Dan Cleary walk with me that other time. Because it was just like a weird thing. You know, you can't put your finger out. Look, who is that?

Well, that same dude I watched and I looked at some of the footage in another hearing, and I saw him there a suit, you know? So I did. I have seen a couple times the same dudes because I had a whole camera crew. So they, you know, I went through some of the footage. But I don't know that it's that simple. I don't know that it's like just a, I don't know, you know, who's ultimately wanting certain things to be known.

and other things not. Like, clearly they want you to know that UFOs are real. That has been, that is a clear message. They want you to know that. Yeah. But I also know that specifically the CIA

has been shaping the emerging UAP narrative in their own words for many years. I'll tell you how I know that. I was exposed to what I believe to be correct information in document form. of an analysis done by CIA on the TikTok incident. Okay.

And... Back then or recent analysis? This was years ago. So CIA was on it years ago? Well, I don't know. I know that what I was exposed to was a few years ago. Okay. But what they were trying to claim in that

was that Fravor misidentified his instrument systems, which it negates the entire thing of it being filmed by Underwood, all the other witnesses. It was just like this low level trying to push through the intelligence agencies a dismissal, which I never really thought about, but they do that a bunch. So like when people come forward and they talk publicly about UAP, there will be internal classified memos that say none of these people can be trusted.

Arrow did that. Arrow did this whole yearly report. And at the end there was this paragraph, and this is like multi-sourced, a bunch of people that actually have access to these service who've read the class-side versions were like, oh, that last paragraph. I'm like, what last paragraph? And then I finally learned is that ERA said, well, you know, nice that here's our report. And none of these people that have come forward could ever be trusted again because they broke the cardinal rule. So they're trying to tell the rest of the intelligence community, you know, if you speak outside of school, because those are the people with access to stuff. Yeah.

You won't be trusted again. So with the CIA, I know that they had put some reports into circulation, including the Lockheed Martin narrative. And that's why I wanted to, I'll tell you. That's interesting. Yeah. And they've actually come to Fravor, and he immediately saw the nonsense. And I said, look, check out this email, because I had received another email where they're

trying to use individuals to propagate that mythology. and I know where it comes from because I saw that in some documentation that I believe to be correct. I actually informed a federal agent in the DOJ, a friend of mine, hey, if you have access, here's a document you should look for. Don't, I'm not asking you for anything. You're not solicited it. This is for your knowledge, you know. And so I have found that.

The CIA absolutely has hands on this topic a lot more than others, probably because of their shell companies and how they can help hide stuff. I know that they have stood up a media platform. I saw it coming from Miles Way. George and I have kind of talked about it. But if you have a media platform that jumped into the UFO thing, and then they do not just UFOs, but a bunch of science and technology news, You want to name them?

I would rather people think for themselves, right, at this point. But, you know, if you've got somebody who's like, I don't know, living in another country, like Germany or something, and they run like a, you know, media, online media thing, and if you look at the history of that media thing and when it popped up and how it popped up, and some really good writers for it, by the way, it's not all UFO and there's some really great writers for it,

But that is a way to shape the emerging UAP narrative. So if that dude has ties to the CIA and maybe other family members of his, if they have ties to CIA, you'd imagine that's a great way to shape the narrative is have a trusted publication that's online can be operated from out of the country, but you get local writers who are into this topic

in good faith individuals, but you can always see the story. And that's happened a bunch. This is the same gay, plan they've been running since the 70s. It's the same story. Yeah, I guess with the... With Dodie and Bill Moore and all that.

Right. Right. And creating outlets that you can shape stories with. I mean, yeah, it makes sense to me. Of course. Social media is the battleground right now. Yeah. I mean, because you can get like, you know, 50 people with like 19 followers, 40 followers.

You can make some disparaging comment over and over and then upvote and they upvote. That's why I don't use social media anymore because it's so. so artificial, or mine is artificial now? So is mine. Is it? Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, my own Reddit.

It's amazing. My own Reddit that I own just blast me constantly. They get like, you know, they can get a whole bunch of people, maybe same person, different accounts, but they can create a narrative, push it through everything and then upvote those comments or something. Michael was telling me about what he was. He did an analysis. The top comment on my Reddit right this week is that I'm an asset. Yeah. that I'm an asshole.

So they might be right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to fight against, right? Like information is the battlefield. Yeah. And social media is we spend so much time on it.

So that's why it doesn't hurt me when I read these things where people, you know, say I'm, you know, holding this back or doing this. No, dude, I'm doing my best job. I'm trying to make sure that people that come to me, that they have a safe haven to come to me, and that we do our best reporting possible in me and do. George. And if you look online, you know, you'll, you'll see that that is a great way to influence public opinion with very little effort. And I hope people are smart. They think for themselves. Well, George is in his 70s. Who's going to carry the baton once you're gone? Michael, my buddy Michael. I don't know. I mean, someone. Yeah. It's got to step up.

Everybody, here's what I'm encouraged about. we have so many great new voices in the UFO field, right? And a lot of people fighting now. Where before, 40 years ago, George is the only journalist that touches the 10-foot pole. But I do see that Congress is asking for more whistleblowers. I see David Grush making very profound statements about biologics and reverse engineering.

And I do trust David Grush. I do trust him. I've known him for a long time. If David Gresh was some asset, knowingly some asset, I'm not naive on that. I'm not there yet with him, but I trust you. Right. So you know that to my best assessment right now, I have known that guy for many years. And you vetted him for a full year.

Yes. Oh, dude. Like, yeah. So there's a lot to unpack with that. But basically, I don't see a cabal of people all pushing forward into the media a coherent, cohesive agenda. There are people, they are being harmed for trying to do this. It doesn't mean that both aren't happening at the same time.

I will relent to that. It's possible. Four-dimensional chess and I'm not a chess playing player. You know what I mean? Meeting the checkers, as they say. I'm just like, you know, I'm doing my best here. But I hope that's not the case. Or if it is the case, at least we're getting the right information.

But what I am encouraged about is that there are so many new boys. is people that are doing really great work. Now, some of them for fuck sure are assets and it is gross. And I've actually made a public statement that people should, for the right thing, stand the fuck down on what they're doing. But the majority of people are just curious like you and me and they're young and they're hungry. And I think the, I think the future is bright for the UAP thing. If we don't get caught up in the nonsense.

And I think our zone is flooded right now. I don't know what you think about the whole psionics thing, but like, dude, that reeked of a government operation from day one. Did you agree? Agreed? Yeah.

100%. Yes. So that was really weird to watch. George and I just sat back. You notice we never had anybody on. I've talked to all of them. I know a lot of those guys. I just like from day one,

what is the angle on that? Why would they, do you know what that, what would be the purpose of that? It just muddy the waters. Right. That's it. It's just get us looking over here.

that's really all there is to it I think same with the age of disclosure there's a lot of bullshit in there there there's people in there that can't be trusted but there's also people in there that can be I know right that's the rub right why is James Clapper in there

and not in prison I don't know why would he be in prison I don't know a lot about politics for lying to Congress that NSA was spying on Americans oh he did right yeah

those guys Look, I learned that lesson. I was so sure that what was being done was illegal to Wismbers, and apparently it's not. So I just, you know, we had to let it go. I talked to a couple of very big, well-known podcasters, and we talk in different ways. Like if you call certain people's cell phone, it takes a long time to connect. It's very clicky on the line. Oh, yeah.

It's like we've got to go secure comms. We can't use our phones. It's been proven to me before that I can be listened to. It was like a flex that was done to me by an agency. I believe it. No, I'm telling you as fact that that's been proven to me. And then it was directly told to my mom by an agent. Wow.

Yeah. And so. I mean, it's so egregiously illegal. But Patriot Act actually makes it. I don't know. Because it's National Security and Patriot Act. All I know is. that every time I get on the phone with my lawyer, he goes, this is Chuck McCullough, and this is a

privileged conversation. So why would you have to say that if you didn't think, you know, that there's a chance. But yeah, it's been shown to me on that. And it's a huge, it's not a good way to live. And I'm kind of like rethinking right now my life a lot about what, how can I be most effective. And if I'm constantly living in the state, we have to be so careful about having conversations, like, maybe adjustments need to be made for me personally, you know, to be more effective in my reporting. I don't know yet.

I don't know. I just need you to be safe. I feel safe, man. Michael made my life look like a horror movie. His sleeping dog. Great movie is fucking frightening, and I break down twice. It was a great movie. Is there anything that we didn't get to that you want to get to?

No, man. I've never had such a kind of fun, different kind of conversation. It was really, thanks for the opportunity to talk with you and your audience. Dude, you're a legend. Thank you for coming in. Thanks, man. Weaponize, podcast, awesome, sleeping dogs. What else?

Well, yes, Sleeping Dog is the movie right now. Michael would want me to say it's on Amazon and Apple, and you should watch it. You should? Worst time of my life. Great entertainment for you. But I'm out of the woods. I'll just say that.

How many beers do you drink in that movie? Wow. I know. I made a point, right? I didn't want to hide anything. Like, you know, I sip a few beers a day. I told him, I said, we got to get some cores in here. Yeah.

Oh, dude. My friend Christina did that for her podcast. It's the greatest ever. She brought this like, but no, just that, man. Just, you know, weaponized. The movie Sleeping Dog, you know, I did make the movie. patient 17, hunt for the skinwalker, and Bobazar Air 51 of Flying Saucers, all three of those,

you just watch for free on YouTube movies now, which is pretty cool. But I think the main thing is just with people is, you know, pay attention to what's happening right now. We've never had so much movement. And I don't know that all of it is good or some of it might be a sci-op. I am ignorant to some of that stuff. but I do believe that we are in an unprecedented time where we are so close to getting some sort of admission

and then we're going to have to assess that. And maybe this scientific panel and group, maybe we'll do great things. I don't want to prejudge it, but I've seen this movie before. I've had this rodeo. If it's being run by OD&I, unfortunately they got zero trust for me now.

There's some good people in OD&I that I know, but what's going on with Congress feels like a manipulation with OD and I, and I hope to be wrong. But yeah, in one year from now, maybe we'll know a lot more than we do today, and then we'll come back and talk again. Jeremy Corbelle. Thanks, brother. Bye, everybody.

That was Jeremy Corbeau. Handed our talk with a bet that a year from now will know a lot more than we do. I can't check a prediction. Everything else I could. Start with the footage. The pyramid over the USS Russell, the sphere off San Diego. Jeremy released those, and in 2021, the Pentagon confirmed they were taken by the Navy and folded into the government's UAP investigations.

The Pentagon backing a self-described weirdo with a beard and tattoos. I love every part of that. Storm Area 51 checks out, too. A college kid watched Jeremy and Bob Lazare and Rogan made a Facebook joke and 2 million people RSBP to raid a military base. I love every part of that too, but I don't recommend it. Now, the big one. James Lasky ran the Pentagon's covert UFO program,

And he wrote, in a book with George Knapp, that America holds a craft of unknown origin, and then we got inside it. The government's own publication review cleared every word. That doesn't prove a craft, but nobody's walked it back, and we keep waiting. The entrapment invitations, the whisper campaigns, the safety protocols for his family?

I can't verify. He says it's recorded sitting with his lawyer. We have to take his word for it. Everything I could check, checked. But the scene that stuck with me is the tennis court. Jeremy filmed John Lear for almost a decade. Near the end, Lear believed the man he called Sleeper had come to Earth on a craft and could write him a ticket off the prison planet. Jeremy flew him in, wheeled him onto the overgrown court, and filmed Lear crying, asking if his ticket was still good.

Jeremy calls it UFO disease, no answers, so you fill the hole with whatever hurts least. He won't fill his. So is the biggest story in human history being suppressed? I can't tell you. And neither can Jeremy. That's what I like most about him. He fixes toilets in his own buildings, so nobody can buy his reporting. and he spent 15 years saying, I don't know, for certainty, pays better.

That's the guy I want holding a flashlight. Jeremy and George Nass podcast is weaponized. The documentary is Sleeping Dog, that's Dog, singular, on Amazon and Apple. And his films are free on YouTube movies. His site is Extraordinary Beliefs.com, and everything I mentioned is linked below. If his grandma's story got to you, check out my Battle of Los Angeles episode. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated. In area 51, a secret code inside the Bible said I would.

I love my UFOs and paranormal fun as well as music. So I'm singing like I should. But then another peach theory see theory becomes the truans, and it never ends. No, it never ends. I fear the crap cat down got stuck inside males hole with M.K. Altruc are being only two away. Stanley Kubrick faked the moon landing alone. On a film set were the shadow people there.

Ian's just fought the smiling man. I'm told and his name was cold. I can't read. Some Mothman's sightings and to have got the secret city under. ground Mysterious number stations Planet's Earth O 2 And where the dark watchers

Fowliferation I set a life for real