The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: John B. Alexander | Roswell, MJ-12, Skinwalker: The Colonel Who Was There

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call [phone] now. Colonel John Alexander commanded Green Berets in Vietnam, briefed the White House, and evaluated the Pentagon's strangest programs. He was the first person to spend the night on Skinwalker Ranch. For 79 years, the strange kept showing up in the middle of his official duties — and he wrote it all down. He brought the files. And the bent forks. This conversation goes places I didn't expect. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we're sitting down with Colonel John Alexander. He commanded Green Berets in Vietnam, ran advanced weapons concepts at Los Alamos, and pioneered the military's non-lethal weapons program. He also threw spoonbending parties for Army generals, sponsored a scientist whose lab levitated scrap metal, and was the first investigator to spend a night on Skimwalker Ranch. And none of it was a hobby. It was work. A night at Skidwocker Ranch? You couldn't give me to spend a lunch there.

That place has demons that make the crab cat look cuddly. Today we're... Feedicran, Ted! Today we're covering the Army's psychic warfare years, the voodoo fire ceremony he filmed in West Africa, and why a man with a file full of things that can't happen isn't worried about dying. And at one point he mentions that he could beat a polygraph,

but he couldn't fool his own white blood cells. That one's going to bug me for a while. Yeah, they can never polygraph me. No pulse points, no fingers, no sweat glands. I'm untestable, baby. You confess the things nobody asked about. Yeah, allegedly. Once we wrap up, I'll pop back in and break down our conversation.

Let's go down to the basement. Colonel John Alexander, welcome to the basement. Great to be here, I think. I didn't do it. I wasn't there. I don't know what anything about it. We're going to have fun. I want to start somewhere no one does. You're in a village in West Africa in the middle of a voodoo ceremony. Cameras are rolling and the shaman takes a fire to his face.

What happened? Oh, no, there's much more than that. this was, we were attending a voodoo ceremony, and this particular case, the shaman himself came out. He picks up a flaming torch and puts it in his mouth. Now, what's really interesting was, it was my camera, by the way, that was rolling,

and at distance, like we're sitting right now, this is not a long ways away, and yes, it's hot, I mean, there's definitely heat. got long ching huskers that don't sing. Now, this also went on, and they brought out two young boys, probably about 10 or so, and the shaman goes this and passing the power and say, well, they can't, you know,

they haven't got the full range yet. But they would stand in the fire, sit in the fire, eat the fire. Yeah, it defies everything, you know, about thermodynamics. They say, well, they have some magical, you know, asbestos substance or something. You can't understand that these are people who look up to dirt and poverty. Right. Yeah.

That they have some exotic materials or something. They did have a long history as to how that came about. But it just defies the rules. There's no doubt about that. What was the ceremony for? They're lighting fire. Us. No, this was We were with a small group and they were doing it for us,

but this is something they do all the time. Only the shaman can do that? What I'm getting at is, can we all learn that power? That is a question that's hard to say. There's obviously a period of training and introductions. Like I said, with the boys, he was passing the power and said they've only got so much. We saw a number of them do this.

The backstory is that this goes back to the days of slavery. And these were people that we were in Benin at the time. We were both Togo and Benin, but in that area in West Africa. And, you know, most of the slaves were actually captured by Africans in that. And one of the things that had happened is that they had been, captured, most of the people were put in one of these corrals, which was then set on fire and burned alive. After that, there were a few survivors who had been outside

and said they made a deal with the fire gods that if they would honor them in return for protection. Now, we're in an area where if you believe, The physical evidence we saw is they definitely could do these things. I might mention that I had taken those to a local magician and the guys who deal with fire and say, okay, how do you do this? And the answer was you don't.

He had showed me the tricks of people, how they do fire things on stage and that. And part of it, frankly, is just how much pain can you stand? Yeah. How far do you go before it kicks in? But the beer's done singe. That doesn't... Well, that's why I say the laws will thermodynamics should be

if you put someone on the skin, you'll burn. Right. Yeah. It didn't happen. Were you there on official capacity or just curiosity? No, no, no. This was personal and after I had retired the second time. But I want to point on one thing, misconception about voodoo itself.

Voodoo, in my view, is not just a religion. It is an entire way of life. I mean, this is, you know, people incorporate this. Met the guy there who, his job, literally, was to dream. And he was a shaman. He had been trained. And he would dream at night and come out and tell the village, you know, here's what's going to happen, here's what you should do.

A long training process that went into that. He did say he had adopted one acolyte. I don't know who he is, and the villagers didn't know, but it was training them to succeed him. But if you travel, again, throughout southern Benin and Togo, And probably in Ghana, every place you go, you see the trees, and there's a white thing on it, or a white flag. That means the doctor was in.

And we were there, actually, we happened to hit it on the Boodoo New Year's Day when we had massive numbers of Bulu folks in. and yeah, some of the things we saw, I guess one of the ones that, I don't know if you've seen this or not, again, we arrived at a Buddhist ceremony that particular day was out of a small village, and there were several people in trance with this one woman

who was just totally out of it, and they take gunpowder and put it in her hand, and it blows up, and totally unfazed. and how you do that without burning. But definitely happening. Did you go there trying to debunk it or understand it? Well, we tried. Essentially, I kept track of the guy that was in there.

We remember when Ebola broke out. And interestingly, those areas did not have a single case of Ebola, although it was around them. And his quote was, Boodoo will protect us. Now that's taking a big leap of face, if you will. But, again, the evidence was it didn't happen, so you don't know did it just not hit that particular area.

And, of course, we have a new Ebola outbreak now that's occurring. Did that group, that tribe, have long life expectancy? I don't know. I'm curious about that stuff. All right, we have to do a little bit of the biography. you gave your first UFO talk in 1947. Right. On the school radio in fifth grade,

that was the summer flying saucer was coined. Right. Did you give your talk before Kenneth Arnold went public? No, no, no. What had happened is there were a few newspaper articles. This was in the La Crosse, Wisconsin, small town. And it just caught my attention as it was just becoming popular at the time.

And I went to a very unique grade school. We were part of what's now the University of Wisconsin system. But then was a teacher's college, and they needed guinea pig, so that was us. And we had access to the facilities of the college, and they would allow students to talk on anything they wanted. And my talk, that particular day was on UFOs. A couple of years back, the government wanted to launch a central bank digital currency. full visibility into every dollar you spend.

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Well, yeah, since then, yes, I was 10 at the time. Yeah. Well, well, Speaking of 47, that's Roswell's year. Do you have, I think you have, we're going to get some controversial opinions today from you, which is fun. Yeah. So what about Roswell? Was that, I never heard you say aliens, really, in any of your talks. What's the question?

Roswell, was that a crash retrieval? Or is that a weather balloon? No. I think the answer to both is probably no. but I can argue Roswell either way one of the problems

in setting you get in however deep you go the data never all fit into neat pockets but I can make a strong case that an event occurred I don't think there's any

doubt remember Roswell did not really become a thing until much much later Bill Moore's book maybe in 1980. Stan Friedman and those kinds. So for decades,

so it wasn't like it was in the newspaper except in the Roswell newspaper, of course, and that. Don't think there's any doubt that an event occurred. I don't think there's any doubt that the government came in pretty heavy-handed. But what people forget now is the time frame. I mean, we're talking beginning of the Cold War.

We had just come out of, and I actually remember, part of World War II. I was a participant, but, you know, remember some of the things going on. So you have to remember the public tenure at the time, and this one was scared the crap out of everybody, you know. and it also the

straight story and with a lot of documentation to it was remember what's going on at the time at that time the U.S. is the only atomic

as opposed to nuclear power in the world and we knew the Soviets were working on it so the big question was when yeah if they pop, you know, that changes the dynamics quite a bit.

And so that they had very high altitude sensor systems. Now, they later went to seismic systems, which were, you know, better. It got me. But, yeah, that they would have had, and it would have been super, super sensitive and very few people. And I do know, I think, I think. I think it was Bill Burns, one of the TV programs that they had. He came in, and they laid out some material.

And there were people, you know, Jesse Morsell and others, and there was another sergeant who was there, and they brought them in and said, do you see the same material here? It was laid out, thin films, and all that. And the answer is yes, and they pointed to one. And the point was that did exist at the time, and had most of the properties, metal with the memory,

flame retardant, and all of them. Yeah, we later told about, you know, you talk about the long train of debris, and what I was told by very knowledgeable sources was that, yes, what he had, that these things were cut to a specific angle looking for certain frequencies. Again, we're looking for,

as a nuclear detonation occurred. And so, you know, that kind of material would have been there. I can, I talk to Bruce McAvey. You probably know about this at the time. And he goes, well, if that's true, wouldn't they have found a screw or something? Yeah. That was that.

So I don't know. But again, the case, you know, just dwindled immediately. it did not hit the other cases that came along, the flights over Washington and all that, many more UFO sightings came along. But Roswell is conundrum to me. Is it? Yeah.

I think Marcel said, because he took the material home overnight, didn't he say that it was writing on some of that stuff? He did bring it home, and I thought Jesse Jr. also was really good guy. And I heard him talk several times. He only said what he knew. He was one of these few people and were not extrapolating into bigger night.

And he said, my experience is 15 minutes. You know, dad brought home. There's what we saw. Then they took it off. Yeah. There are others who have, you know, different stories on it. And, of course, you get into the bodies and all of that.

And the hard stuff. We'll get into some more of that later, but I can't help myself. When you were digging around with clearance, did you look into Roswell? The short answer would be no, because there wasn't much to, quote, look into. I mean, very aware of it and aware of all of the material. I never ran across anything in any of the files that referenced it or anything like that. It was 47 the year that the Air Force was specifically. spun out of the Army? Yes.

Yes, okay. That's convenient. Well, that's just critical. As a matter of fact, when you get into like the Twainting memo, yes, which is key. In fact, the memo was to the Army Air Force. Those these things were happening, you may not want to talk about MJ12. These are literally being formed at that time.

Yeah, I mean, I have my notes here on things to go through an order, it's not going to work. My notes are not going to work because now you brought up MJ12. I can't help get your thoughts on that. And what about Richard Doty from OSI? I'm wondering how you feel about him. We have met probably, well, when we met, he was with the New Mexico State Police. He told us the story that could not possibly be true. In fairness, they were guessing who I was. I was there. with Scott and Hale put off,

and they were guessing who I was and guessed wrong and thought I was from DIA and I was actually not retired at Los Alamos and he told me this very fanciful story about a building I had been in that week and saying, no, not the way it's built. And also, a lot of the stories that come up. Again, we're now talking early 90s.

Critical here, the timing, because Cold War, you know, Soviet Union has just fell. And with that, at Lanell and a lot of other places, of course, we went into the peace dividend probably way too early. But the issue was that a lot of places that were, quote, behind the fence, no longer, you know, had guards at the gate. The fences were still up, but people would come and go and whatnot. So, no, I've just, I guess I just in the last week saw a preposterous thing. You know, I come from SF background, and the claim was that Delta force were specifically trained and equipped. in this and

sorry, I'm still associated with that field. Sure. We go into it. Yeah, not happening. So MJ12, the documents, I go back and forth also because I don't like the Bill Moore Jamie Shanderay part of that story.

How they found them in the mail, they found them in the archives. But the documents are still compelling. So where do you stand on MJ12? It was real. Okay. That list is a problem. probably real and probably had absolutely nothing to do with UFOs. Wow. So what would be the purpose of that, just counterintelligence?

It was something called COG. Continuity of government. Oh, of course. Which was super, that is one of the few things that I had asked, Philibine. So what about? And he says, we're not discussing that. So there were times. And this is now in the 80s. But the, creation of continuity of government. Now this became public knowledge, you know, when Greenbrier, they found out the Greenbrier place had been at a big underground facility. Yeah, the hotel. It was where you would whisk the government to, in case of it was to prevent nuclear decapitation and continuity, the continuity was a continuation of the government would exist and have that.

If people don't know, there's like a mini congressional hall in there. Well, as I understand, there may be pieces of this still classified as whatnot, because you are still concerned about what happens to the government under catastrophic circumstances. This should always be a concern. Yeah. But if you look at that list, remember what, Stan and I talked about this, too. And he was saying like Menzel, for instance, who was a very anti-UFO guy in that, that he was reading a double life, according to Stanton.

He wasn't he? No. No, I thought he had clearance. He was an asset. Yeah, but if you look at it from a position of something per cog, that list of people makes total sense. and you don't have to do backflips on any of them. Nope. I mean, you have nuclear,

there are people who understood nuclear weapons, and this gets terribly complex as to what could be done, the amount of damage that was done, blast radiation, radiation, continuance, etc. Yeah, that group is the one exactly, and Truman is the one who puts in place, and supposedly not taking notes and that.

But that explanation fits without any... It does. It does. So James Forrestall, what about that conspiracy? Did he... Which one? I mean, died after a. You know, but some thinks he was drugged or something.

You know, it did fall to his death and that, but... I have a hard time making a leap. Therefore, you know, some nefarious group assassinated him or something. Well, that's why I like your, really, that's your whole thesis is you've got all these great, some would say wild claims, but you're also a skeptic, I think. Well, you know, my current thinking is a little different than it was. How so? Well, that's primarily because some of the people who come forward,

who are personal friends and who are very highly located, well-placed, et cetera, as when you get into the, quote, the legacy program per se, that varies considerably from my first-hand experience. Yeah, I mean. And some I just end up with, can't really tell. I think what you had Jeremy, for instance, come forward.

I mean, that's their whole thing. But the question, I think, is, are you tracking down what are UFOs or UAPs or whatever? Or is your whole thing on, I want to crack the government? Yeah, I mean, what does George think about it? I think he cares more about government transparency. then yeah yeah well I was going to get into this but in my view I think the entire approach is wrong now and yes the government does have data but I don't think this fits very well with governments per se

I think that a better model how to approach would be considered the human genome where you had multiple countries. The major thing is sharing data. I would also compare it to cancer because it's ubiquitous. It is, you know, many different forms, morphs, it changes, and all that. The government has a role to play in this,

but it is not the role that you have, you know, many people, different government, And the problem that I see at the moment, what the government brings to the table, of course, at the moment are really good sensor systems, and I can make a strong case for why some of that should be classified because you don't want to tell people

whether you're operating parameters, what you can see, what you can't see, and measure, etc. So that, I can say on the top end, you won't have it. Having said that, this is a global phenomenon. and in my view the government can't put it back in the put the genie back in the bottle is happening all over and now with us you know we have what rings on every door and cell phones and this and the data is just overwhelming i mean police body cameras you're seeing stuff yeah um yeah some of this is on my list but since we're here anyway and actually let's yeah let's yeah let's yeah let's

Let's stay on this for a second. You always bring up Slimansky, but Henry Slamansky? Slomansky? Yeah. You want to go to the martial arts area? Well, what I found fascinating about him was his MOS. The Japanese, hung with the Japanese war criminals. It was a hangman?

Yeah. Is that still in the manual that I was? No, I don't think so. I hope not. Again, you've got to look at the time. Now, when I work for Slomansky, you can't remember I was a brand new E5 at the time. I had gone to Ranger School because that was the only way you were going to get promoted. You're coming out of Korea, so promotions just not happening.

But if you went to Ranger School, you automatically got promoted to E5. and I went back and then I went to the Fort Campbell Jump School as an instructor 20-year-old black hat yelling at saying, okay son you know these kids are a little older than I am certainly and the ground training NCO was Henry Slamansky and he was well his big thing he had lived in Japan for a long

period of time as well as hanging a few of the criminals and had become a major figure kind of it was commissioner I think for the Western Hemisphere was the title and the big thing was that he had entered it had been training but the story was that he had entered a major contest and this was back in the day still full contact and all of that And, of course, a foreigner being in there was not favorable. And ended up, I think, defeating 110 or 111 Japanese art and really gaining their respect at the time. What was his system that he trained in?

I'd have to look at all. I was just curious. I probably have it in there. Oh, they had to hate him. well yes and I know of course one of the things like I say respect is when he whipped their ass you know and got so I mean

they expected them just to be eliminated almost immediately in the thing and it didn't happen and ended up like I say more than a hundred about in a period of two days to get up there so it's a hundred fights in two days yeah

I believe it was a two-day you know elimination approach. Wow. Okay, so special forces I want to know. His final job, not his final job, but he became a chaplain. That's right. I heard you mentioned that.

In the hospital and the hospital chaplain kind of a big shift. It has happened with many of us. It is, but surrounded by death on both sides. What an interesting character. He would be a good

subject for a biography, that man. Yeah. Or a movie. At camp in Cambodia, you had a Buddhist temple inside the wire. Well, this is Vietnam. That was Vietnam. Why did you have a Buddhist temple in there?

And what did you and the monks talk about? A, we didn't talk much Although My Time frame again This is 68 I was there for the

Quote Tet Offensive And that sort of thing The camp Had been established And there was a small mountain A small hill actually 50 some

feet up And By the way this is in the Delta. There's actually an area called Seven Mountains in the Delta. Most of the deltas, you know, was perfectly flat and wet.

And they had these big mountains where major fighting was going on. And, yeah, we... Why the temple was there when I arrived. One of the main things, though, My main interpreter there, we called him Mike, had actually been a monk for six years, so did have some, you know, that was a personal discussion. However, on the top of this little hill, I'm saying there was a small enclosure,

and we'd always have somebody on top, and people were located in different places in case you got hit. You didn't want to lose everything at once. And I can remember, because we usually stay up pretty late on that, and go and stay in waking up, being surrounded by monks, you know, chanting. You know, an interesting awakening. I bet. Did you talk to them about consciousness and near-death experiences, anything like that? No, no, no.

NDEs don't even come. Remember, this is 68, Raymond. and Elizabeth don't come into the field until mid-70s. Right. The first discussion. But before, I think Moody coined the phrase, but they were still existed. Well, there, I have an interesting model someplace that,

in fact, I wrote and published it in which journal, but it was that you, basically, is you have events that occur as something. And that's kind of interesting, one z's and two zes, and then you go out, and then you find, well, there's really more of them, and then you go out, and then you find out, well, gee, there's a huge number of studies, and then you do study of studies, and when you do that, you find out, oh, this started happening long before, you know, zero patient, if you will. And so that's one of the ones where, yes, there have always been, you know, now we, you know,

you know, go back to Erv and Plato and things, and he found out it was there. He just didn't notice it before. I think it's a great resource to have Buddhist monks to talk to about that stuff. Well, like I say, that was, the time frame is off by a decade or so. We'll get into Raymond Moody a little bit later too

because he's fascinating. He's changed my thinking on quite a few. things Raymond Moody. And Coopla Ross, too. You mentioned Elizabeth. Yeah. You knew everybody. Well, Elizabeth was the head of my doctoral committee.

And that's one of these strange stories. I had answered some questions before, and one of them was there an event that there are just so many of them. What had happened is,

I was in O.E school in California and had seen some tapes where she was now talking about near-death experiences. This would have been 77-78 time frame. And she had come to lecture. And then there was a workshop that I attended on my home. And it was very unusual in that. About 50% of the people who were in attendance, were medical professionals. About a quarter of the people were, like me, just kind of interested. The other quarter were dying. Oh, my goodness. So from an emotional family, this is really an intense kind of workshop, very different.

And so I was stationed at Fort McAferson in Atlanta at the time, And I just sent her a letter that was kind of a, gee, thanks, that was very impactful and whatnot, because these do get emotionally intense, as you can imagine. Well, a few weeks later, we had secretaries at the time, came in and said, you know, you got a call from Elizabeth, her assistant. And the call was says, well, Elizabeth is going to be coming through Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her?

Remember, you can still go out to the gate and all of that. And she has several hours there. Can you meet? Well, of course. And I was getting ready to work on a dissertation in a different area, but in behavioral science. And so she arrives, and I said, I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. question. What's that?

Would you work on the committee? He says, oh, yes. Didn't want to get into models and things. But that's one of those events. And her other comment was, look, I know 1,000 people in Atlanta, and I chose you to call, and I have no idea why. That's when I said, I think I'm supposed to ask a question. Yes.

Do you believe in synchronicities and things like that? how do you not yeah I will probably get into generic consciousness sorts of things but you know that is one of many

that have occurred and so you say is there a single event no there's just those that have happened and happen my probability throughout the military career is totally

impossible you know I said, Colonel my probability of making Colonel is below zero because I had not done that you were supposed to do certain things

and technically I was an infantry officer. It spent most of my time on special forces and doing other sorts of things at two tours ever in the infantry and so when the board came out, I was

getting ready to retire. So, okay, it's been fun. But like I say, the probabilities are just impossible. Why was it so hard? I mean, you were enlisted as private, and I think they call you guys a Mustang. Come up hard way. I was, well, when I went to OCS kicking and screaming,

you didn't want to go to OCS? No, not really. What did you want to do? Well, but, you. This time I was in E7, the youngest in the Army, in a sergeant major position. I mean, that's just impossible. What year were you east? Did you promoted the E7?

62, 63. I'd have to go back and check the records. So you're only in six or seven years? Only about six years? It was fast, yeah. And there were a whole set, again, the synchronicities that happen. that could allow for that. And, yeah.

So for me, Sergeant Majors were gods. Sure. Why would I want to be one of them? So you wanted to just stay with the infantry? You didn't want to make lieutenant? No, I was SF Special Forces. Right. So you wanted to stay there? Pretty much. I mean, that was, yeah.

More interested in. special operations and of course then they got promoted I was a special force as medic because then in the operation slot and then after OCS it was a short time after that the Vietnam was hitting up and that I went back on active duty and the rest of history yeah there's a part of your story that that amazes me up Between assignments, you were scuba diving, the Bermuda Triangle, looking for pre-cataclysm civilizations. What did you find? And why did you do that?

Why did they do it? But this time I'm quite interested. This is now 69-ish, maybe 70. Oh, so you're actually between tours. Well, yeah. The reality was at that time. But now I'm commissioned I'm a captain. I had been come out of Vietnam already.

Your captain already? Oh, yeah. Well, remember, in Vietnam, that went, you know, it was two years to captain. So, you know, rightly or wrongly, that, you know, they say, war, what do you get? Boom, promotions. So, yeah, we, I was. most of the time taking any period of long period of leave, you just didn't do that just because of the jobs you were in and whatnot.

And so if you were going to be off for a few weeks, it was between assignments. I think that's where, what was I coming from? I think, well, not sure where I was coming from, but I was going to Fort Benning to go to the career course. if you will, but I had time where I was from Miami area. I lived there at times so in fact when I was in Vietnam,

my family had stayed there. And I had also run into people that had done some pretty unique research into

the Benney Wall and what a fact Jay Manson Valentine is the one who found the area and a couple of some twins that I knew hate this we get reaching way way back but had introduced me and had an opportunity to go out and actually dive on it I have problems with the explanation that it pens or something like this because it took both there was a thing without

I think it was 1,800 meters long. And when you dive on it, you dive this side, it's ocean. Here are a whole series of rocks that are very clearly placed in there, huge, and you flew out the other side is not there. And you could free dive it, so we didn't need tanks or anything to do it. So, yeah, and another area of interest. even more so now is, I am not a fan of out of Africa for the invasion. And I think we're finding more and more evidence that, particularly in Western Hemisphere,

our notion of history has got to be wrong. There were huge pockets of civilization where you just can't get there from here. No. If you, who's the typical out of Africa approach. Not to mention, as you know, they go, well,

they go Magnon, and you meet the Soviets, and you go, well, and then you meet, you go, well, where did they come from?

You know, all these little, you know, pockets of population there. And when you get into Central and South America, I have, and this is much more recently,

but when you go through, particularly in Central America and you see all these mounds that are there basically every mound is the temple they just haven't been excavated yet and we're doing more with LIDARs you know looking in the coming out finding larger and larger groups

and I find that's true all the way down into Madagrosso had I remember being in Eka in Peru and seeing the mummies there and they were going, and they said, well, where they gave, and they gave me the illusion chain

and then, you know, cold game and then you go, but you asked why, why don't you do some bitter DNA testing and things? And the answer was funding, quite frankly. But the more that we're looking, you're finding larger and larger population centers throughout. You get in a Montegroza, for instance,

areas in Brazil. And they're finding these giant roads connecting all these places. Yeah, well, that's the point. Yeah. Yeah, they keep revising the date backwards farther and farther. Yeah. Were you looking for Atlantis? Yes.

You were looking for Atlantis. Well, I had certainly heard, you know, beyond the pillars of Hercules as the continents of Atlantis. So that's sort of what it was, listed as I can't say it was Atlantis per se certainly and was not

continental in form but there was something there was pretty damn vague and no I don't think it was fish pens or something like that. So there's no question that Bimini is manmade but we just don't know what it was for?

Bimini's islands or series of islands. I mean Bimini Bimini Road. In my view, yeah. I do not see that. It will certainly man-made and certainly not simple, you know, explanation of them, way, way too big. Why do you think there's such pushback on the theory of a pre-deluvian civilization? Why resist that? Well, part of it's just generic history. There's two things and one I'm sure we'll get into, and that is literally worldview and we've been kind of bouncing around

the outside of this already but one of the pure materialistic we're going to go back and get to the god barricle or something like that and the other that I tend to support is more like Max Planck that says you can't get behind consciousness and I hear the idea that consciousness

arises or the physical arises from consciousness as opposed to something we generate in a few pounds of meat. Yeah. I tend to believe the same thing, but I don't know who created it in the first place. Was consciousness here before the Big Bang? Consciousness is. It is. I get that question on that.

And it's kind of hard to explain. And in our, you know, the worldview, again, that we brought up the standard review, of course, we're seeing a huge shift now between classical physics to quantum. My best quote on that was from John Feynman, who had been at Los Alamos, said, you know, and he goes, anybody who says they understand quantum mechanics doesn't. That's right. That's a great quote. We're coming up at a break, but I can't help but ask. Did you... You were friendly with Ed Teller.

Yes. Did you and Teller ever discuss Max Planck's theories about consciousness? No. I would have loved to get his... Imagine picking his brain. We did do UFOs, and we may want to discuss some of that a bit longer, but... Yeah. No, and as you know, had him literally over for dinner.

several times because more interested initially in what's his take on UFOs. What did he think? The quote was, you're looking in the wrong place

and he did not mean by that in looking in the wrong files. He was talking about telescopes and things like that. But again, we're still talking at a time when even my thinking was we're talking

physical hard craft and we're crap flying around but and I had by this time had already had the advanced theoretical physics and we've got into some of that yeah we'll get into that so we have a lot of cases and now he was interested in cashlandrum he was yeah what what drew him to that That's 1980. Radiation. Radiation. Yeah. Cash Landrum is December of 1980.

Yep. And, I mean, remember his thing. Radiation is the idea of people who've been irradiated in that. That got some personal interest. All right, we'll take a quick break when we come back. I want to talk about the new mental battlefield. Okay. All right.

We'll be right back. Okay. And December 1980, you published the new mental. battlefield, sent it to military review, expected them to reject it, and they put it on the cover. Yep. Who is the editor? What was he like? No, that was key in another one of these serendipitous events.

I was attending in a Command General Staff College at Leavenworth, not terribly challenging. So I wrote the article because I was interested in these various birdshift things. Like I said, I really didn't think, because I went into remote viewing and psychokinesis. And, of course, at that time, a book that had recently come out was psychic discoveries behind the iron curtain. And so what are the Soviets doing and all that? You're going to keep you. By the way, I keep slipping between Soviet and Russia and the while and understand the difference. but most of my life was in the Soviet era.

So we were very concerned about it with everything. So I wrote the article and then turns out, I don't remember the editor's name, but I got to meet him, he'd had a near-death experience and had been out of body. And that's how the thing got from not only printed to the front cover of the magazine. So it came out, by the time it came out, I'm now in Washington, in the Pentagon, assigned as Department of Army Inspector General.

And frankly, it came out of, you know, not a little of it. However, there was a, you know, Jack Anderson. Okay. So Jack Anderson picks up on this, and he writes the story, the voodoo warriors of the Pentagon, you know, ain't it awful, look at all the Pentagon's wasting your money. And, of course, he was syndicated, so this went out widely. It got to meet the guy.

It turned out he hadn't written the article. Forget the guy's name. He took that and wrote a book. What happened was said they got more response to that article than anything he had ever written, and it was 99% against them. Everybody was saying, well, of course the Soviets are doing us, we ought to be doing that. whatnot, which was not, but he actually showed me the draft article, which was written positively, and they just flipped a few words from, look at the neat stuff they're doing,

look at how they're wasting your money and whatnot. Fast forward, after that happens, again, I'm literally in the bowels of the Pentagon, this lieutenant colonel comes roaring out. Now, did you write this article? I said, yeah. Don't you know the process for getting it cleared? Yes, why? And why I had the file there, I don't know, but it happened to have one.

It says, what office are you from? And it had been from Axie. This isn't the cheapest that. Well, like, fast forward a number of years later, we're doing a spoon dendening party. this guy raises his hand, he said, Colonel's fine.

Did you write such an article? I said, yeah, would you like to meet the guy who cleared it? Wow, he was there at the spoonbending party? Well, this was an official event, so all the people there were military. Sure. But the point is he'd gotten his ass hand to talk him for letting it out. he may or may not have known about, I think it was a grill flame at the time, but,

oh, pre-stargate. Oh, long. It went through several iterators in the same program, but his name changed and locations and things like that. But it was all under, actually, the assistant chief of staff for intelligent. And so that was the office who came in screaming, because this, gets into the compartmentalization where part of people know what's going on

and other people don't. It didn't raise any flags at the time that it went in. Yeah. So you brought up the spoonbending parties. Can you tell me a little bit about stubblebine? What was he like in, I mean, did he really try to walk through walls

and do stuff with the clouds? No, the clouds are real. Okay. I used to do that. You can actually do that. You can make clouds. Yeah, disappear. Yeah.

And what you do is, in order to know there was the right one, you've got kind of a chain, and you've got to identify which one you're working with. It's kind of hard to explain. But, yeah, mentally you can bust clouds. You can do it. Yeah. How do you know they're just not doing that on their own?

Well, the point there is, like I say, you have a series and you pick one and you pick that one and the ones next to it don't disappear. Yeah, and only the one that you're working on does. Highly, I don't know of any scientific data that would back it up. My personal experiences, yeah, we did that. So that part was done. One of the things about Subalmine was, A, was very interested in the field and all of that. What was done on generally at the time is he was one of these people who was allergic to like bee stings or a thing.

And so he was going out to Walter Reed and constantly getting shots. From military perspective, it's not good. In fact, I got evacuated once on bee stings in Vietnam. We call them VCBs, but, you know, where you get multiple. things very quickly, so he couldn't do that. So this was a Goduncan thing. He says, well, if I'm mostly air or, you know, vacuum and the needle is mostly made up of nothing, then we ought to be able to interpenetrate without doing that. But I have no indication they ever ran into a wall or anything, you know, like that. But he did believe everything is made up of mostly nothing.

Oh, yeah, well, that's true. It's true. Yeah. I mean, you think about even just from a pure atomic level, remember most of the stuff is not matter, it's space in between. Of course. So the idea would be to interpenetrate.

You know, if I punch this way, then it hurts, but if I can slip between, it may not hit pain receptors. So the spoon-bending parties, were those stubble-bine, or is that a halk? The answer is yes. Yes. It's okay. You know, what happened, we had heard about Jack.

Jack Hout, by the way, he was for people, no, no. The aerospace engineer at McDonnell Douglas. And he had, actually, is where Rory comes in as well. Worry was kind of the model, so he'd heard about these things. And so Jack developed a process where basically, anybody could do it. And that what happened was that

we had heard about he was actually a contractor for CIA at the time working on a problem, which brought him back and forth to the Washington area. Uri Geller was? No, Jack Howard. Jack, a great guy. In fact, we got him

the Dinsdale Award for it. He was very interested in these areas. He had developed. Anyway, I developed a kind of a, what we called PK parties or PKMB. And so some friends had him over and attended that and saw him. That's kind of interesting. So I went to Bert and said, hey, you know, hey, this is real. Let's set it out.

So we had an event at my apartment. It was in Northern Virginia. Do you know Andrea Paharish or folks that? Very well. Well, Andrea was there, as a matter of fact. Probably don't know Ted Rockwell. No. Ted's key, because Ted is or was there,

he had his own business. He was Rickover's technical director. And he brought with him home by name Ann Gaiman, who is quite an effective medium in that. So we had a number of things. I guess I had, there was an ambassador there and some others. And we ended up, we're sitting around literally on the floor and kind of quasi-circle, and still not quite sure.

But when you start, you can use some physical force and you talk them through it. And you can feel, most feel, a perceptual change in the material and all of that. So we were doing that And it turns out Bert was sitting directly across from Anne Gaiman And she's one

We get to the final That's where you hold a pair of forks Match forks You know and no physical force allowed And all of a sudden the thing goes And we went oh shit Did you expect that to happen? No

No well kind of hoped but the idea that but it happened that dramatically and directly across from him and absolutely no physical force and that I don't know

this is real sometimes it's not like and I ask the all the time where you bend the first one A don't do that, don't demonstrate and it's more because of and this is why we went to the P.K. partying

and would bring, you know, the senior folks in, because if I bend it, you can give me 100 reasons how, and yes, there are tricks, and, like, they have trained with, you know, I don't know if you know Alon knew. He's a local magician here, and that's kind of one of his sticks now. However, he does believe we got involved because, you know, he does believe that it can be done real, but there are ways to manipulate it.

So the idea, in fact, in taking us to, see, Bert would have love ends, NSCOM is a unit around the world. I mean, and we supplied the people to the listening stations of NSA and all of that. And what's INSCOM for folks who don't know? Intelligence and security command. They're now at Fort Belvoir.

They were at Arlington Hall at the time. two-star command, but you have these colonel-level command all over the world, so they'd bring them in about once a quarter, you know, what's going on, what are you going to do, planning for the next night. And so periodically we would do it. By the way, these were not universally thought

to be a good thing. I bet not. There were a lot of people very resistant. But his reason for doing it was, was not to bend spoons. I always used to get asked, are you going to do Ben Tank Burrells?

I knew. In the early 80s already, but computers. You know, that's where I think the vulnerability actually is. But the idea... Oh, okay. But the idea was more doing it with his commanders to say, don't disregard things just because you don't understand it.

because we had been blindsided. You remember Sputnik? There were a number of Soviet advances that really caught us off guard, and you go back and you look, and all the information was there, but, well, the classic one is one that you actually talked about a program

that had to do with the submarines that was Joe McMonicle, is the one who had done that, but he came. came up, you know, they had asked him, this is the remote doing program now. They'd given him, in that case, geographic coordinate, it's a bit changed. But, and he says, well, there's this big ass submarine and this dual hauled and the tubes are

forward to the sail and a whole bunch of things that were different. And they sent it to our boat builders and that bullshit. Right. You know, we don't have any information. And besides, if you built something that big when it went to depth that would crush and then the clouds parted and the cameras came on and there's the typhoon class submarine yeah there it is yeah with double hulls and all that yeah but the point man it was all as joe had uh outline but his point was no we've been blindsided enough so just because you get things you don't believe now you've had an experience

of seeing things that would happen like that. It's a reminder that, you know, check it out. Don't just classically disregard. Can we see some of the silverware? Oh, yeah. These are amazing. Another program. What I brought with me is these are literally the actual forks that happen

have tape on because I normally keep them stuck. Now, what happens is that at what we call the graduate school, you hold them thusly. And so this took place at Xerox Center. And we had, again, the folks from all over the world, mostly 06s, if you will, five's, a couple generals. and so I'm in kind of a semi-circle. I'm in front, and there's two rows, and these guys yell. And this thing had dropped the full 90 degrees, which I did not see. Were you holding it?

No, no, no. This is, I'll get to why I have to hold. These are the actual fork. But what happens then, well, I had a GS-18, a science advisor is the one who saw it drop. But I'm also, frankly, a little skeptical that somebody's not putting me on. Because remember, these people are not happy that we're doing this on the hallowed grounds. But then, like I say, this drops over, it comes back up to straight up, goes back down, and back to where it literally weighs.

Now, that's an N of one. I saw that once. These are the ones. And the reason I have them is the guy put them down and said, I wish that hadn't happened. I mean, really scared him. Sure.

And because normally when we do these things, people take all the stuff home with them, which is fine. And normally that's what would have happened. There were some other major ben's that sort of place that night and whoever. did it did take them with them. You can tell what that's...

Oh, you can tell. Yeah. But the point is, because the only time I saw Ann's drop that once, a full 90 degrees, I saw this was the only one where we actually saw it, you know, kind of literally wave that as. Understanding because he was assigned in Europe

and Sullivan was over. another trip and saw him, he did it once more at home and put it down and said, never again. So who is bending it? Well, this colonel. The colonel was, and he didn't expect it to work? He did not

want it to work. I understand that. This is a personal, you know, scaring him. Now, one of the things, and we haven't gone in, the work of the devil in all of these things, this is a major issue. I mean, not to be taken trivial.

You get into the UFO, we have the vice president now talking about demons that are out there and all. But I had, well, when the article came out, a number of friends that I talked to, again, I'm in the building, and they're going like, that's the work of the devil, we shouldn't be doing that. And as a matter of fact, the good rationale why the program moved from the Army to a defense intelligence agency. And the chief of staff of the Army, well, fundamentalist Christian. And those issues have never gone away. Where do you stand on that?

Do you think it's some type of spiritual warfare or anything like that? That's a very different question. Is it? Yeah. Is it spiritual warfare or whatnot? I do think there's a spiritual domain that we're getting into, and this is where all of these things come together, and it's back into consciousness and all of that.

But you added another word, and that was warfare. Yes. Does it happen now? One of my problems with many of the organized, religions that is that they set up dogma I'll digress a bit I said Cuba Ross had been the head of my doctoral committee and was doing the dissertation she made me change one word that was from religious the spiritual ah and made a major difference in the outcome of a thing and many of the people said I don't like the dogma of the

church, but I have a spiritual relationship with spring being whatever you want to call that. There were others who said, I believe it's spiritual, but I like the ritual of the church, because having grown up within that. But it gets terribly, terribly complex stuff. It does. I mean, I know you know Chris bled so very well. When he was here, I asked him, Can anyone learn to summon Orbs? He said, yes, but you shouldn't. I haven't talked to her. Been in touch with Chris since yesterday.

You know that story? Or should I tell that one? Tell it. But what had happened is that, yeah, you immediately had met him in Pennsylvania initially and talked in this long story. I mean, he told it, but he told it. but you can do hours literally. And so I knew about the initial thing.

Victoria and I went to see him, and we spent a few days, and we went down to the Cape Fear River where that incident, the initial incidents had occurred. And so what got my attention, well, I already had, was pretty positively disposed

because I'd seen enough stuff. but we went down to the lower thing right next to the river, walked back off where he says he had seen going beams and all that. So we're at the car in Victoria, and his daughter, Emily, get in the back seat of the car, and Chris and I are leaning against the left front of hunter. It's getting just starting to get dark, white light on it.

And he turned to me and said, oh, I think they're here. And with that, this thing pops into view and goes zipping off, and I saw that. And there was a second, again, the temporal relationship between him saying, I think it's here and that. Now, we've done a lot more since that. In fact, doing some competition now and trying to prove you unconscious of the big one, Did you do the one on Real Splitter? This was on Beyond Skinwalker Ranch. And the incident that I think is truly phenomenal is that the split screen.

Chris was sitting there pointing off the UFOs or the or the orbs, if you will, are over there. The second camera has the orbs. The third one, he's got an EEG helmet on. and you see a massive ships in brainwaves when he says, you know, this interaction is occurring. Wow. Easily quantifiable. Kind of can't quite explain it, but it does say that there is, there are things going on. And I think, I can't say it's totally unique.

I will say I'm hearing more and more of people who are, you know, doing something. I should mention Bob Monroe and that I wanted to ask you if you knew Bob the Monroe Institute Yeah well I knew Bob Of course you did But

But Yeah What folks don't know is Yeah he used to go out and do this too Bob would summon a warps Yeah Well no UFOs UFOs

Yeah And by the ways Elizabeth also was a friend of his had been down there, and yes, they would, some of them in and see. See, one of my first questions that I do on the UFO presentations is, what do you mean? Because I got Forbes, you know, little balls in light that are running on. They've got hard craft that are miles, literally miles across,

and thousands and thousands of variations in between. That's why I come down against the ETA. or extraterrestrial hypothesis, not because they aren't there, but that's just too simple, unless Earth is on the galactic list of, a bucket list of places that have to be visited

or something like that. But there's pieces of that that don't make sense. But the idea is, again, the fact that we said before, yeah, it's happened, and it's got the G, but it's kind of always been going on. It's like near-death experiences

for many families for years and years, they just never talked about it. It was somebody I was talking to family because it was crazy or something like this. I happen to have one of the most unique NDEs where you have physical effects on that. You have one? Well, no, this is,

I guess Task Force Delta was being formed, which is different from Delta Force. This was a think tank sort of thing, and they got introduced to an individual. He's not really, I think, ever become public, but what was unique about it, because they told me that he was shot down. What happened was normally, this is a Vietnam story,

but normally when you went out, at least in pairs. Well, this particular day, this one cobra was out flying along. And the cobra, you know, you've got the pilot and co-pilot lined up like this. They're kind of screwing around, and they get raked, 51 caliber. And it's bad enough that Jim gets hit, the side of the leg, breaks his leg. and all of that. What happens, as he described it to me, is when he gets hit, he goes forward.

Supposedly the landing or the controls are shot away, but he remembers landing. Now, what happened, though, was there was no place to land, per se it was a small opening. So they go to a country, It brings it nose up, so it's going to come in, boom, fat. It's going to be a very bad day under all circumstances, but it's kind of ameliorates the shock because it's coming in like this.

What's key, though, is that you have no idea what the orientation of the helicopter is going to be because the blades are still spinning, which is going to affect the way it land. So you don't know until the end of that. Well, it turns out about click-click. and a half in front of them is a friendly fire support base and they see the incident happen. Well, then crashes, Malina, beats them all of a sudden, Jim's out of his body, up floating above, and he's looking down and he can say, here's the helicopter, here's how it's oriented, and there's the base in front of us,

and says this hooded, I said, why male, but he thought it was a male figure, says, what are you doing here? And he said, no response was, well, I want help for them, not I'm in trouble. He says, but don't you know? He says, no, what? You're not dead yet.

With this, Jim sits up inside the thing. Backseat has already gotten out, and he's running away. At that instant, he turns, and he sees Jim moves, or he runs back and grabs him. He says, I thought you were dead. You haven't.

moved since we were hit. And he says, there's a friendly base that's out over here. I'm going to go for help. He says, no, Jim. No, no, it's in this direction. Guy Ann says, no, it's this way. Jim can't move. Got a broken

leg. His face is literally burned off. Oh, my God. It's now setting in. And he goes, no time to argue. Literally gets the guy to give him his pistol as he's decided to commit suicide rather than be captured.

So what happens is the bad guys come swooping in, in this case, obviously relative, and then the friendly base comes in, and they find him. But this is the only case that I have, because they put him in a jungle penetrator and lift him up, and he can say, here's the helicopter, there's the base, this guy's lost, and saved his life

because before he passes out he's able to say went in this direction but the only case that I have a guy physically replicates in-body what is out-of-body position right been

um I think Joe McMonicle said it was his near-death experience that kind of wakened his abilities well I'm going to say I was also I'm a past president of the International Association for Near Death Studies, and that's seen this change.

And one of the things, interesting things that happened, initially now we're talking late 70, 80s, the idea was that this was a discrete event that happened over a very short period of time. And, you know, yeah, mystical things happened, but it happened within that time. One of the things that became apparent with ions was that no, that people did gain abilities, particularly psychic abilities, precognition. One of the main things, I'm going to watch, was that electronics, that these people couldn't be around electronics, and they could be affected by it.

But that turned out to be one of the unexpected. issues that happened. Of course, the other was the amount of things that happened during this discrete integer, you know, how long you were out, time just doesn't seem to count.

I don't know. You know, my brother, Evan, no relationship on that, really good. There's a case where he was out for nearly a week. Out of body? for a week? Well, the NDE has lasted. He's definitely in coma for about that long endgame meningitis,

and he has these fantastic experiences that happened. One of the things about Evan was unique. He was a neurosurgeon. So he's one of the few people who came in and says, I understand neurophysiology, and no, the brain could not have been functioning. one of the aspects of, there's many, and I recommend proof of heaven, his book. Well, he's got several. Proof of Heaven, Map of Heaven was another one.

But he talks about being out, going through these realms, and he has this butterfly, the female that takes him around and all of that. It turns out that Eben had been, adopted at birth.

Kind of uniquely, after he's adopted and moved away into the Alexander family, his birth parents marry and have other kids. So he has siblings that he doesn't know. He doesn't know who his birth parents are, doesn't know much about the family or thing. He knows he's adopted, though? He does know he's adopted. But doesn't know the parent, okay. He doesn't know his birth parents or anything.

So he gets in contact with them and he gets a picture of a now deceased daughter. And he says, that's the butterfly. Wow. It did not know her or anything about it. It was really, you know. Did that give him any sense of peace? How did he feel about that? I don't know.

I don't know if you're frightened. He's big, of course, this stuff starts bleeding into all of it in the consciousness field because what he will talk about is layers and layers of complexity that is hard to, yeah, beyond our capability of understanding, certainly. That, yeah, but this was part of, you know, this was transformational kinds of things that happen. The other one in the case, well, we jumped from Jim.

Aides not, like I said, did not really go public with that much. I forget how some mutual friends were where we were both in, like I said, this task force Delta, and how that came about. The other one that I think is, well, there's so many. And again, you can search the items file. But another one that I think is absolutely critical is Mary Neal, is that name Ringable or to Heaven and Back. Yes.

Okay. In her case, what's interesting is she's kayaking in northern Chile in a remote area. and, long story, but she, the last day, and they go over a waterfall, and she's an experienced kayaker, so it's well within her range, but she gets forced into, not the way she wanted to go and goes over, and the kayak goes in and locks underwater. And normally there's a release you can hit,

but because of the force of the waterfall can't reach it or anything like that. probably under water 30, 35 minutes. Yeah. Find her body down there. Bring her back. Two guys appear. And they assessed in carrying her, you know, to the waiting ambulance in an area that has no ambulances.

And then they, you know, take her to the, now she says, met God being out there. another thing you had four young children and something no mother would want to hear is oh your son's going to die at 17 she was told that yeah and did not relay that to anybody like I say

so about a year before she finally told her husband by the way she's a orthopedic surgeon in her own right and they tell them and she Sure enough, birthday comes, and he's out skateboarding in a different location, and the car ziggs to miss somebody and zags. And last time I talked to it was interesting, was that she said, well, there were other

things that have yet to come to pass. So she says, well, no less personal, but, yeah, there are more information that had been transferred. Who would, why burden her with that information? Why do that? Oh, I would not say she sees that as a burden. Knowing that your son's going to die? I don't know if I can handle it.

Knowing that we're going to be together. John, do you think about what's, do you think about what's going to happen to you? No, well, I'm long past my expiration date. You are, and you're still going strong. My mother died, from a biological standpoint. My mother died in early 50. 50s and father about 70.

I'm long past that now. You don't seem to worried. No. My question is all, well, it's like all of these things, you know, these incidents that have happened in leading me going, would somebody just give us the map? Right. What do you want to do?

Right. It would be easier. It would be. An area that has come up more recently, though, has to do with pre-birth agreements. This is coming more and more into vogue that we made certain agreements, and you're going to be presented. You still have free will. You get into the conundrum of free will versus predestination,

but the IAub that you can, you know, you'll be presented with certain things that will allow you to make choices, and you still have a choice of which way, you know, to go with it. But, yeah, I've always wondered what we, well, particularly the world as it is now, did we really sign up for this? Right. I think Raymond Moody's talked about it. I don't know if you know Michael Newton's work. talked about that life between lives and how we kind of gathered together in soul groups and

we decide together like all right i'll see him down there and this is what we're going to do you kind of feel the same way pretty much pretty much i had well this is kind of an odyssey kind of uh stuff in the movie but one of the issues was that the temporal ships that take place and um funneled Homer did the same thing when writing it. But, you know, way back, you know, was doing hypnotic regressions. You were? Yeah. And, you know, the issues are what's in between and all of that.

What did you see? Well, no, I was a hypnotist. What? Where did you learn to do that? I am a terrible, terrible subject. I'm a control freak. Same. And I admit it.

It doesn't work on me. Yeah. And I don't like you about if we're going to go into ayahuasca or things like that, but it's working with the shamans. But you got enough information and, again, a number of mediums. Again, one of the things that we had seen is just making. no sense and really with automatic writing this one was coming to mine oh this would have been Fort Benning so 70 71 72 time frame working with a guy

Charles Loeg who was a professor at the Columbus College there in oh I forget the name the college that they're in Columbus Georgia and they were taking night courses and they met some mediums who were doing phenomenal work. They used a planchette. So it's like you're using a pen, but with ball points in the back, and it would get these long, long messages and that. What was most amazing to me, though, and all of that, interesting messaging but this would get this thing with scribble. I mean, just, and then all of a sudden they go and this picture would emerge. Was someone hand on it, like a Ouija board plan?

Yeah. Okay. His hand is moving it. And it would draw a picture. Well, it looks like it was just scribbling. Right. Until the end, and it makes two or three moves. And all of a sudden you go, wow, that's a picture.

You know, the background stuff that all been put in. And certainly beyond somebody, I think, beyond their ability to, I'm going to scribble a bunch. And then, oh, by the way, a couple lines. And here are this picture. What was it a picture of? I don't recall. You don't recall?

We're talking about 70-71 time frame. As I said, there are so many instances like this. What deal do you think you made before he came back? What was your reason to be here? Lack of common sense? I don't know. Well, all these things happen to you. Yeah.

It would be much easier from the other sound. They said, here's the blueprint. Oh, go do this. As opposed to, oh, you're going to almost die, but then these sorts of things will happen. I mean, I look at it in the anomaly, some of the stories we're of. But I could tell you the difference between the bullet zinging and the bullet cracking. That means that it's that close. You know, and that was an instance where, for whatever reason, the guy who was shooting at me,

who was pretty damn accurate, because the second shot, well, that was already, it happened to be a ditch there, you know, it was right on line. And had he done what you should have done, i.e. shoot center of mass, as opposed to a headshot, he'd have nailed me, there's no doubt about it. But that didn't happen. why? Why can I tell you these things? And they only make more sense in retrospect than what they do.

Well, you're clearly on mission still. I just wanted to know if you felt like you were. But you definitely are. I guess speaking of Vietnam, and what about, tell you. me about Project Jedi and the experiment with the 45 Cal? Well, this is back to Inscom. Yes.

Yeah. NLP. You remember with NLP? Neurlinguistic programming? Yeah. Okay. I had the two co-founders, Richard Bandler and John Grindr under contract, and working with him as a guy you probably heard of called Tony Robbins.

I've heard of all three, yeah. Yeah. Well, Robbins and Grinder were working together, and this is when I'm working for Bert. Now, NLP was designed as a therapeutic modality, i.e. how you take broken people and make them better? And what, Frogs Into Princess was the first book by Bandler and Grinder. And it was, you know, how do we make them?

Now, in InScom, our problem was different. was how do we take good people and make them even better. And so it was set up, like I said, had them all, by this time, Bander and Grylner have split. So the Twains don't meet there, but Tony and actually did most of the work with Tony Robbins. This was, you know, before. Before Tony was Tony? Worldwide fame and all of that.

But we, it was an interagency group. And one of the things we had in common is everybody shot something. Now the other problem with modalities were feeling better. You can't quantify that. So what we did is we, since everybody shot, and the question was not, did you hit the target?

Did you not? It's, you know, you hit the target and blah, blah, blah. So we got, it was difficult at the time. 45 ammunition was really critical. We went out and we could go, we could contact anybody as models. And so we ended up, the people in the civilian sector, the Army marksmanship unit is kind of the place to go. So we brought in the Army champion, the inter-service champion,

and their boss. And we did modeling with them. And we did some stuff, first of all, things like, you know, why do you do this, what do you believe about shooting and all this? And all of them, you know, shooting was good and whatnot. And you could protect life, and there's a way to make a living and whatnot. So we went to the physical aspects of it and got them, took them, and shooting, and we get them as far off balance you could get,

and they were pretty damn good. Even being way off balance, they had enough muscle memory they could hit. But if you ask them to do a mental task, like Hummery, hit a little lamb, went to shit originally, you know. So obviously it was more than physical and much more mental capability. You know, it's interesting that Tony Robbins and those guys,

guys were involved because do you see now how we've got in like business success seminars there's visualization there's people doing the cold plunges well you missed a biggie which is what we did with them well again the person we were working with on now we we had a day where um in the morning we taught people how to break boards you know the car karate. That's right. He does that too. Also firewalking. Well, that's the second step in the afternoon. We did the spoonbending and in the evening we did firewalking. You did. Yep. And the quote he uses but does not attribute was mine was the question was what if you had a battalion of people that could do this? And I said, yeah, you just have to tell them they're coming.

Yeah. But it was quite a day. So was this all Project Jedi with those guys? Was this Jedi? Yes. I mean, kind of attached the name. Sure. That was not one of the official titles.

There have been several Jedi programs that have come up. Some of them official. others not. We just attach it again. Remember this was when Star Wars is at his track. Oh, that's right. Jedi warriors are just the thing.

Did you notice that your program went civilian? Did you notice that the program went civilian? Like when Tony became famous, where you're like we did that. Yeah. Well, like I said, what he didn't do was attribute it to quote. No.

Why didn't the military take it more seriously? Well, no, that, you know, the political aspects of it. You don't have to. Well, no, no, A, did for a while. Remember, this was, this weird show is not all popular, and you have the values of the big system, if you will. We were operating quite independently.

We started a second project, that was related. And this had to do with NSA at the time. Remember, NSCOM provides the people who work at NSA. The Soviets were much faster. Our guys were topping out normally at, I'd say, 25, 30 groups. Remember, the stuff code is sent in five-digit segment bursts. And we would...

guys topping out probably around 20-30. The super debts that they had were, listening to the Soviets, their fists could get up to like 60 words of many ways. But we had a few people that we had found inside that were doing this.

And what they called them was super debts. Turns out what we found out was basically we're looking for the wrong people. We looked for smart people. And some people who had said, you know, wrong question. The simple question to ask is, what kind of stereo equipment do you own? How does that work? That works because they hear

better. They hear better. Yeah. And so that was really the defining question. If you were going to look for people who are going to do well in this or ones that had super hearing. Now, The other question we did have, though, is where's the buffer of the mind? Because what would happen is they would hear these things, and the thing would stop, and they're still putting this towel. I don't have an answer for that. The question is, where is the buffer? Because this thing is ill-staging, and they would continue to write after the transmission has actually stopped.

And you couldn't find the buffer? Maybe you could now with neurophysiology, FMRI or something like that, which we did not, you know, didn't exist at the time, little on. You know, what did happen, though, was that this was getting the Army political. The, Bert, as a two-star general, was in charge of Inscom. At the Army staff level, you had the championship operations, personnel, research and development, logistics are all four-star, three-star positions, and intelligence was two-star. And they said, that doesn't make sense. So we're going to make it a three-star position.

And so there were two people, there were a lot of the current Axie, Bill Odom at the time, and Bert Subalbine, who was at Inscol. And the fighting got really ugly. Some will know we had used the Monroe Institute for training for some of the, well, just kind of a generic orientation, as well as people doing remote viewing work. And we had an accident down there. People can look up and find the name.

But we had a lieutenant. What happened was before people went down, they came in from all over the world, and we bussed them Donald Monroe Institute. And they had all been screens because we had a shrink that worked with us. Was this part of a, Colonel O'Connell's report? Wayne O'Connell and 81 did a report on the gateway process from a memory. That's much later.

Later, okay. Oh, no. I know the report. No, this is, that's 81. Well, the issue I was getting to was the accident. Yep. So somebody didn't show up. And this lieutenant, Badgers, Subble, I want to go, want to go, no.

And he goes down there. and frankly cracks up. Now, understand that in the military, unfortunately, you know, we kill a few kids every year with tanks and things like that. Bad accidents, and I took, well, I should all say,

yeah, this guy, I saw him, he was fucked up. Sometimes just ranting and raving, send him to Walter Reed, and two or three days later he's out, he's fine. know, maybe got a thorazine shot or something. Sure.

But he's recovered. And he got his clearances back and everything. So he recovered from that experience? Oh, almost instantly. Did you need your psychiatrist involved? However. Okay.

And now what happens, it's about this time that we're upgrading intelligence that was used against Bert and just decimated. He kept coming back and back and, you know, he frankly got forced into retirement over that and that we were doing this weird stuff as Ed Seister came in behind him who interestingly had no intelligence experience he was an artillery officer I think

and said his job was to clear the nest of vipers you yeah did you stay in touch with stubblevine after retirement Oh, yeah. How did he do? Was he okay? Was he okay? It's terribly complex. He became a truther. Wow. And really, one of the questions that comes up as to the efficacy of using, you had mentioned earlier when Chris said maybe he shouldn't do it, it is not risk-free. Let's take a quick break and come back and talk about John Hutchison and the ATP? Okay. All right. Our audience knows John Hutchison's work.

They don't really remember that in 1983, you were sent by the military to evaluate, John, weren't you? I was the one who paid him, yeah. Yeah. Can you just start at the beginning? Like, how'd you learn about him? How do you learn about John? Well, there was George Hathaway, who is a double E from Toronto. And I'm trying to get the guy's name who was with him, who was since deceased. And they had a small 16-millimeter film of a bunch of really weird things happening. And they came down and looked at it and said, you know, that's really impressive. I wonder, you know, how real it is.

So, set up a program where, yeah, I was paying it. Yeah, I was paying him. He was working, had moved in Vancouver. One of the things that happened was that he had, well, he liked to make sparks. I mean, that was his thing. Okay. So he was living in an apartment, and he had a basement lab, if you will.

And he had bandagraph generators, Jacob ladders, and all kinds of spark making stuff. And the story, although I understand there are several, but the one he told me was that he would sit down there at night and he threw something into the area and all of a sudden it hit him. And he threw it back and it came out and hit him again. And he goes like, what is it?

There's nothing there. Now the other problem was that with all of his electrical stuff he was disturbing the environment. Now remember, this was the days when, you know, TV went through the air and that. So he was screwing with everybody's TV in the process. So they said he had to move. Is enough energy to overcome a broadcast signal? We, thank you.

Again, he's just putting on crap. Right. Now, one of the things, what he told me he was doing was that he would look at pictures of Tesla. and look at what's happening in the, you know, his shopper on there, just try to guess, you know, how could he replicate some of that? It wasn't taking factual data. It was just taking pictures and, well, if I put stuff here and whatnot. Wow, I didn't know that.

He was just looking at the pictures trying to. Yeah, trying to figure out of Tesla, of course. He had contacted George. George becomes the saving grace. because he came over and did the diagrams of what all the things are, where they were physically related to each other and all of that. Unfortunately, part of it probably was the piping because he's in the basement and whatnot.

They couldn't replicate that. Now, this is where Ted Rockwell came back into it again. Again, Ted was Rickover's technical director, who worked in nuclear energy. He had his own company. By the way, it also gets into interspecies communication sorts of things. Ted was the guy who brought Ann Gaiman. So many of these things, that's one of the things,

just intertwine in ways that are almost unimaginable. I mean, didn't you in the past? Didn't you communicate with dolphins at some point? Are you working on that? Yeah, that's a whole other story. But yeah, we did work, that's what I call an interspecies communication with a telepathic work. NetNeptune's helper, if we get to that. So anyway, like I say, we've seen the pictures, we've talked to them, and it's probably real, so we set it up.

The idea was that they would recreate the workshop that John had. in Vancouver. And so, you know, he did. And one of the things that we did is I was physically at Fort Belvoir at the time, had a place down there. You know, we're working with Cleave Baxter and those things. So we took a bunch of metal samples and cut them in half, but half of them in the safe at Fort Belvoir and gave the other half to,

for John to manipulate. Thinking we can see if there are physical structural changes or anything like that. Now the problem was John. No problem. Yeah, it is. There's no single effect. There were so many different things going on.

You had mentioned earlier to me the anti-gravity. Well, there were things that levitated. There was no doubt about that. The one that I found really interesting, people today may not remember how light bulbs used to work with a filament across there. We had a tape, he had two pieces of wood and a rat tail file probably above, you know, this big across. And it is exposed to this field, and it starts glowing and turns not only white, hot, red, or, you know, to white, hot and then drops. Interestingly, they went in, A, the boards weren't burned,

B, it was cold to pick up, even though it had just gotten to the point with that. One of the many sorts of effects that had happened. Cold as in room temperature or cold, cold? Pick it up. Okay. You know, it's molten one second and you can... pick it up. The other issue was not all of these things were metal.

I mean, the idea was maybe it's magnetic, electromagnetic of some kind, and certainly that's what he was using for input. And it, yeah, I think sometimes levitate. One we had a, remember, Alex Pizarro was the name I was trying to think of. They had a piece of PPC and shreds one end of the PBC. But it wouldn't affect a person or anything organic? We have no idea what it would do. Right.

I mean, all we're saying, and this is the problem, there's absolutely no control on any of the. Another one they did, remember, I told you, John was looking at Tesla's bench to see what's on it. And we're also at a poverty level. This was before people are coming in and funding that we gave, I forget what, 20K or something like that. It wasn't a great amount.

But the way he would get, he would go to a junkyard and pick stuff up. Well, one of the things he fucked up was the drive shaft. And it brought it in and exposed to the field. And then took it to BC Hydro. one end of the drive shaft is like case hard and steel and the other as soft as lead it's the same piece of metal and all that happened was that it was exposed to John so it's rearranging the molecules well the point is you have changes in a piece of a single rod not the whole thing and this was true in all cases. But I remember

in the PVC one, the PVC evaporated. I mean, it just wasn't there anymore. Now, of course, it wasn't in a sealed container where you could find it vaporized and be picked up. Again, John is there's some personal background I won't go into an echo.

But these things were definitely happening. So one of the things that happened, In the P.K. arena, I mentioned the metal bending, Jack Halk had given me some molybum rods, and these had been extruded, and nobody in the metal bending had ever bent the metal rods. So I had some, so I gave them to John,

and I got it back and to amp this a slight S-curb in it. It was just by being exposed to the field. And this is a very durable metal with a melting point of almost 5,000 degrees. Well, yeah. And we also looked to say had somebody gripped it. No. Is that the piece you brought today? No.

Okay. This is one that John sent me. I just happen to bring a have a lot of different one. But look at this. I mean, just the size and weight of that. And that's just from being exposed to his field. And you can see it's just ruptured. Yeah.

And why and how? Don't know. But again, one of so many different effects that you're seeing, this one's obviously clearly metal. There was some that we had wood. We had others that were just twisted. We had, you know, some of it seemed to be soft and screws through it. and would affect it, sometimes would unaffect it.

Again, totally lacking control. Did you see it happen in real time? Short answer would be no. What happened was, and our deal was we were going to do a show and tell. I set it up and went up a number of times, and I brought in a team. I had two guys from Los Alamos and three others from, One of the Night Vision Lab, a couple from the NSCOM.

They were working in the science field. So what happened was, okay, time for show and tell. Right, show time. I do it with everything. You get there early, right? Yeah. I arrive a day early. And they're really excited to say, boy,

that we've got, you know, this thing was just levitating. So we've turned it off. Now, we've kind of understand this is terribly, this is a makeshift thing, if you will, and all kinds of stuff, uncoordinated way and whatnot. And so I look at it, and levitating, we just turned it off. So everything's the same thing,

and we'll just turn it back on tomorrow and when everybody else arrives. And turn it back on. the power supply burns up. I mean, literally, by the way, one of the key things in all of this was power in. All of the entire apparatus was being run on 1-2-20 extension cord. As a matter of fact, one of the naysayers that had been from Lennel ended up going to jail later for other reasons. but anyway

is the one who he says, oh, they've got this stuff, you see the room, because we had a single room that's a huge

warehouse kind of facility, and this all was in one little cubicle of it. Well, damned if somebody comes in and we are able to get into, and no, there's no other

external equipment that's driving energy into this sort of thing. Is one plug, 220, maybe 10-amp fuse? Yeah, like I say, literally running off an extension cord, which had burned up, and it turned out they had no spare. They spent the day getting it.

By the way, there's some similarities to this on the ranch. And I know Jack Halk had also worked with John. And that is, you know, these anomalies, how things happen. I think I've mentioned what I call the precognitive sentient phenomenon. Now, this comes from the ranch. There's an it that knows not only what's going to happen, but how we are going to respond before the incident happens. And it is in control.

Don't know what it is. That's true in the ranch. We had the same thing. I hadn't identified. I identified that after working at the ranch for a couple of years. much earlier than. And this gets into the trickster, if you will, which appears in folklore and that,

Loki and Cocoa Polly and Pan, et cetera. It has to want to be observed. Yeah. Well, but it is, okay, it happened. Well, the same we did at the ranch. You know, the same running 24-7 photographer, and then things would happen just outside. The same thing here.

Jack had the same thing happen. It would happen just outside where the cameras are studying up. Sometimes it would happen above. This area we were in in Vancouver had a wood ceiling on it and then put stuff up there and things would kind of move around there too.

So you couldn't define it. We thought it was a field effect, but we couldn't define the field. by any stretch of imagination. So did you grab a new extension cord? Nothing happened? No, no. The problem was the power supply that was converting it.

They found one and we got it and no, it didn't happen. Now I interviewed the entire team and five out of the six thought it really did happen. Now the sixth one was a huge, not a skeptic, he was something. to debunk it. He's the one who claimed that, you know, Tom Bearden? He thought that Tom Bearden had snuck in for people who don't know, Tom was working on free energy and all of this. It's part of the Sparky Sweet story. But somehow he had snuck in and had set up this system. It was just total nonsense sort of thing. The bad news was, and for reasons unknown,

the Lannel report was classified, and so then it's out, the government's covering it up. Now, the simpler thing would have been to say, we came, we saw nothing happened into transmission instead of this convoluted theories that we did end up dealing with. I'm still in touch with John, you know, today get emails from him weekly, certainly, if not day.

And but never could get under control. And, of course, you know, he's done any number of documentaries and things like that where you see the effect. And you can say we've observed something happened, but you know, kind of controls of how it goes. And the most perplexing thing, again, was the range effects that we saw. Anything else besides

gravity and bending? Well, the heat. The heat. And burning and not burning. Disintegration of material. You know. Do you think that there are zero point energy projects? Well, that's quite different.

Yeah. Different question. You brought up beer tonight. You brought up. Tom Bearden. Yeah. Well, Tom was a trip.

Knew him pretty well. He told me about how Mossad had invisibility, capability, and how they would sneak into his house, and the ways that he would know that is they would move his keys around or something like that.

So, but now he is revered, not with zero point energy, but in the psychotronic community. It was very interesting. The problem I found, particularly the scientific community, is he would give these very officious sounding things, and then you would find out that certainly basic words,

he was not using the same definition. We might use gravity, for instance, that his form of gravity could be different from, the way science traditionally thinks about it. Yeah, I knew Tom, this goes back to the before, I think he came into the picture after the new middle battlefield or something. No, no, no, no, I know it was before that. Because one of the statements that I put in there that I thought,

in retrospect, I would have been more, circumspect and that was I said that there were devices whose lethal capability had been demonstrated where I was pervericating there was that I really meant there was some insects that died as opposed that this wasn't designed to mean you know human however when you get into the Soviet research you know there were some where you had fatal Sure. You wrote a letter to, I think, was the Commanding General of Army Futures Command?

The Commanding General of Army Futures? The Future's Command, yeah. Telling him, here's what we found, you should look into it. What were you trying to get reopened there? Well, I wasn't trying to reopen, but I've run into this in several cases. I thought they ought to know what we did. Sure. And I had been contacted.

actually previously, but more on the NLP research. And so my thing to them was just going to be somebody at least want to know what we did. You know, some of the stuff is still available. And, you know,

I'll call him Kelleher. And I was talking to him recently, and he says that we're the immortals. And he's talking about shock.

and Hal and me and Kit, you know, well, getting up there. But the problem with many of these things, you know, just the information is dying out, literally. Everyone's very suspicious of you and Hal and Jacques for living forever. We want to know what deal you made. Can you quickly tell the story about the cells, your white blood cells?

behind the brick wall. Remember you telling that story somewhere? On the wall. It was a, the National Academy was reviewing some of your work. Oh. Remember that? In great detail. All right.

This gets the work of Cleve Baxter. Cleve was a polygrapher. He actually designed the system. Well, this goes back in World War II. we had he was in CIC Counterintelligence Corps I had transitioned early

as the development of CIA as he was a polygrapher and he was very big in astrology by the way as well but when he was then initially living in New York

and he had a very basic question he had a large plant there and he says, well, I wonder if I pour water into the plant, how long will it take it to show up in the leaves? So he put his GSR sensor on that, and whatever happened. But then he left it on, and it was just running in his apartment and that, and suddenly started noticing every once, it was hooked up to the polygraph, so it was getting signal, every once in a while you'd see a signal. From the plant? Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll tell the question is, why is this

happening? So finally he just found out that there was a connection between what was going on in the environment and the plant. So he started by doing things like ripping the plant and you'd see the thing and then he'd burn the plant. Then he found out that by thinking about burning or threatening to burn the plant, and the plant's responding. He calls this primary perception. This is another word Ted Rockwell comes back in as an introduction point.

So, anyway, I'm trying to think what all of the sequence, as is quite a while ago, but, so Cleave has now got his shop in San Diego, and one of the things that he does is he starts using oral leukocytes. with white cells from the mouth. And they would use centrifuge, but I'm confused it. So the device was that we have electrodes into the oral leukocytes. This thing is in a cage,

a very day cage, shielded and all of that. And they would, how the cells would respond to it. We found out, well, let me back up. He had done some work before that. things like brine shrimp and he had pots there and he would keep the brine shrimp and at an undetermined time the shrimp would jump into boiling water and kill the shrimp and sure enough you know shrimp are responding he also did some interesting

work with yogurt and one because there's living organisms and the yogurt so the next step up was using the or local sites because now attached to a single individual. And their experiment was that you'd have the donor would come in and then they would agree to watch a certain TV program. It was one who would expect some sort of violent thing. But you don't know when or what the event is going to be. And sure enough, you started seeing because they would tape the program

and then put it with it and you'd see a violent event. occurs, the thing starts reflecting. From the leukocytes? Yeah. Okay. Our interest, you got to remember, you know, the Red Brigade and General Dozier is captured. So we had people that were on, and the question is, you know, can we communicate or can we start with simple things, alive or not alive?

Now, I had in military perspective looked at this too, and the idea was who will put capsules in or something, you know, they could transmit. The response was probably not a good idea because if it's suspected, they'll just cut until they find it. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So that wasn't, however, I'm now looking at it from externally saying, you know, Can we either communicate or can we just get an idea of life or results? So that was the genesis of looking at it from military perspective and what. What happened?

Well, I had done a serious, I had Cleave under contract. Interesting side story here. I built my own device. And it was interesting. I took a senior scientist from Night Vision Lab with me out there and said, you know, this is with permission, so I mean, I'm not stealing anything from him. And we look at it and I said, well, can you build it?

He says, yeah, it's pretty straightforward. But he says, look, I have cut this much up. out of the world for me. And you can reorganize things in there, but don't tell me, I'd have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear it. Pretty straightforward. Honest.

Now, he could have screwed me any number of ways, you know, just one loose wire or something. But he didn't. And you said, there's a piece missing. And I said, well, that's the piece I'm gonna worry about. This is the consciousness aspect But so anyway, we ran a series of experiments with this. Fast forward a bit, it must be 87 time frame.

Max Thurman is the vice chief of staff of the Army, and he decides to look into all this weirdness. So he puts together a scientific panel from the National Research Council to evaluate all of these things. I appeared before him several times. In fact, one of the things that bothered me is they had a whole series of behavioral scientists. And I don't know if you know, Bob John from Princeton.

Okay, J.A.H. and John, he is the dean. Well, yeah. Then the dean of School of Engineering at Princeton, who is a central figure in all this, because he had independently replicated, you know, it was doing the remote viewing experiments, and he had a big thing on cyclokinesis and all of that. Impeccable credentials and whatnot.

And we had tried to get Bob, you know, added to it. You know, my admonition to the go, you're nice guys, but, you know, we're the physical scientists, because that's where the experimentation is going. They did have Ray Hyman on there, if you know, Ray and all the audience, a founding member of psychops, you know, the skeptics and whatnot. A bit of a side to, he came to me, he actually had clearances, of an old secret, but came and looked the stuff I had in the safe. By this time, I'm director of advanced system concepts for what was in the Army Laboratory Command no longer exists.

But I had some stuff in the state, was able to show them the Soviet work and all that. And, of course, then they're asking experiment, well, what are the controls with us? I said, you understand how we... This is from spies. We are not getting their reports or something on it. His comment was, I didn't realize there was so much.

There's so much. But so, so the report, this is committee, is set up National Research Council, and I suggested we take them to Cleves Lab because that is pretty damn reliable. By the way, one of the things that happened, I thought was interesting, was that as I said, he was a polygrapher. So we set up an experiment with me

and said, okay, well then what I found was I could beat the polygraph, couldn't beat the white cells. You couldn't beat those. Yeah. And I let them square around a bit,

you know, and there's some personal matters and things like that. So that was really interesting. that shows the connection between, even though my white cells are separated in another room and shielded, et cetera. So. And you were affecting the blood cells?

Yeah, well, I was doing, you know, I'm an animal one, but I was, you know, trying to see what the limits would be. And so, anyway, by the way, back to your futures command, you know, this is what I was trying to solve. We did this stuff. somebody come and look at least, you know, check the records.

So anyway, we set up and the board is going to meet in San Diego. So I said, well, good thing, we'll take them to Cleve's Lab. So what happens is, again, you want to know it's working today, not at work yesterday. So I arrived several hours early. Well, I've been in, it already arrived in San Diego, but arrived, and I donate. cells just to make sure this thing is up and running and frankly we forget about it and so what happens is the panel arrives and we take two of their people with Steve White the lab assistant and they're going to donate the cells and one's going to one's donate one observing and we take

the rest of them to the kind of classroom basically and we've agreed that Cleave is going to give the background in history. I'm going to get up and say, by the way, I've independently replicated this. Now, Cleve is one of these people when you say, what time you get the history of chronometers? And he was going on, on, and going like, God, we, I can tell they're getting edgy and whatnot. So finally, it comes my time. turn to tell them that the world is not built the way they think it is. So I start talking about

90 seconds later, they run in the room. Says, what happened 90 seconds ago? And I said, well, that's when I started talking to them. And internally, yes, I'm saying telling the National Academy of Science, you know, their view is wrong. Right. Is emotionally stimulated. Yes. And so anyway, we go over and we see, I mean, this thing, he's, you know, has stoppers on it. We're getting a tenth of a millibold, but it is just, by the way, I've got this tape. Oh, you do? Oh, I still, yeah. What happened is that Ray Hyman is the one who ran over and looked and ripped it off. Now, what's interesting is when the report comes out, not a word on this. No. Yeah, the only thing that they thought was useful or potentially useful

because they had looked at remote viewing, I know they had been, but they, they were, but they had been curtailed. Most of the classified stuff was not available to them in that. But they had agreed that NLP had some, potentially some, some use. But the rest of the stuff we were doing were just nonsense. And I say on this particular area, it doesn't, yeah, not a word about, it happened right in, you know, the white crow flew right in front of you. CIA wasn't interested in this? Was CIA interested? Well, I mean, I knew KET But these are all

And once you find out And this, by the way, gets deeply into the UFO area A lot more of its personal interest And people say, you know, if you'll notice certain names Keep recurring throughout Even though some of us have their views on it But, yeah, there's a lot of interpersonal relationships have become key in all of these things well we were not

publishing you know reports on this is still what you call basic research on there but we definitely showed the efficacy of it and a relationship that could be tailored at a distance between the cells and again from the issue we're thinking of going is you know is there something thing we can do with foreign diplomats, for instance, where we keep some kind of sample on hand, and if something happens, you pull it out and, you know, try to communicate. Again, simple things like, are you alive or dead, which would change a lot of, you know, what your response would be, you know, what you're willing to risk.

Because your cells were 20 miles away, weren't they? Well, there is one instance. It was more like 50. And now I asked Cleve about it, and he says the problem is that you really probably can't tell, because you'd have to get almost into interstellar distances. I mean, you know, the particles and whatnot. What's the distance? Because we're dealing with things and speed and whatnot.

By the way, getting back to Chris, an experiment that was done with him down at Monroe, in a sealed unit and yet he's doing which I think shows that this isn't electromagnetic you know the consciousness but this is you know we don't understand a lot more than we do understand in these areas like a day that was oh what happened after that is when the shit hit the fan back with you know and Bert was forced into retirement and not all that so a lot of it was curtailed and we viper's went to other areas. Well, speaking of UFOs, can you talk about advanced theoretical physics and what you're

doing there? Well, you know, I had put together a group, well, interagency group. Our, my initial hypothesis, I was working with another guy who has kind of faded out and doesn't want to be named them. But it was somebody who worked at Lockheed Skunkirk. The hypothesis was, A, Roswell's Real, that there was something big going on, and this is something that still emerges,

that people want to get the word out. So we put the group together, and it was at the T-S-S-C-I level. Literally old boys had to know them. I had almost all of the intelligence community, the major players certainly, and the aerospace industry and people who were interested in and got together. We were using BDM facilities. Interesting, I got to the Joe Batic was the V of BDM.

Burke, by the way, in this time, he also, because he had, when he retired, he went and became vice president for intelligence at BDM. So we had their facilities so we could use. I put it together. This is the early days of FOIA as well. And one of the things that surprised people who created FOIA was the number of requests that they got for UFOs.

So that's why I came up with a name, I think nobody's going to ask for you're dodging for you? Files on it. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. And, yeah,

well, let's see where this goes. We had several meetings. By the way, one requirement that did not hold was no records. So, you know, the intent was that there wouldn't be, you know, any written records. Now, eventually I had briefings that I used from on and on.

Is this declassified of this? This is declassified by now, yeah? Hmm? This is declassified? It never was classified. Never was classified. Well, yeah, like I say, this is not official. Right.

By the way, one of the things that I point out, this is, according to, and if you see with ASAP and A-Tip and that, most of these come from the bottom up. This is not ones where, you know, the hierarchy says do this and it comes down. We'll probably get into some of the people that were involved. But it was, you know, so we said, her supposition was if we do this,

certainly going to get noticed at some point, and people come and slap our hands and say, don't do that, which never did happen. What was, when you spun up that group, what were you trying to find? Well, A, we were still dealing with hard craft kinds of things that were going on, and who would be involved if there was a project. Now, I eventually, I moved up the food chain higher and higher. And I did brief or interact with the director or deputy director of all of those three-letter agencies. And the story I tell one of the most interesting one, the global agency. And by the way, the answer was always the same was we don't do that. And then, but the guy says,

A, we don't do that. There's no requirements to even report on it. B, I'll tell you about the I saw. So here's a guy who's now head of agency, lots of resources, has had personal experience, and he went back into things that he had seen years before. He said, they were flying around and doing things I knew we didn't have the capability for, but that did not transition to his, so I'll put together a small group to go look for it. These are the kinds of things that run counter to the quote legacy program. Yep. Could they have lied to me?

Quite possibly. Everybody? You know, and these weren't like a week apart going down to call and all of that. That's what's happened over years. So you didn't believe in a retrieval program, I guess, until Grush and those groups came forward, right? Until what? Until David Grush and some of those other guys? Because you've changed a little bit, yes?

This is where I get to. My data does not match. And in fact, as you know, I've built with quite a few of the senior folks and I have not met Gros, respect to him and his background in that. The tweens just don't go together. Yeah.

And I've told you now, the agencies, and fast forward a bit, we decide to transition to a formal funded program. So where's the logical place to go is SDI. SDI at the time is, you know, the biggest program in defense, is $5 billion at the time. Kind of uniquely, a meeting is set up with me and I have an entourage going in and meet with General Abramson,

who was three-star commander of SDI. And my experience was quite different. We walked in and introduced whose agencies involved and all of that. And so I start UFO 101. And you go, wait, wait, wait, who are you guys really? I mean, this to me is like a guy, deer caught in the headlights, and I don't think he was faking. Could have been, if it was, it was quite an act.

Went around the room in different agencies. NSA was one that a guy gave his stuff, and the thing that stunned me there was, We were giving him the Soviet data, and he says, where did you get that? And he was like, he did not understand our intercept capability. That got scary because it was in, you know, can they do that? And I said, yeah, I think they're pretty good at it.

That's where this goes on an hour or two. We finally get to the end, and I say, you know, we'd like to get blessing. and a formal program and goes, I can't touch this. He says, if I get caught doing this, I will just lose all credibility and friends. So the point was, in fact, he went on to say,

look, you got my attention. I'm an old fighter pilot, and you got my attention, and we are soon going to be monitoring more of space than has ever been done before. if you can tell me what to look for, I'm willing to put some algorithms in, but if I get caught doing this, and this is where the people who else I just do not understand the Pentagon, some of the key people, and I told them, take a decade off and go learn how the system works, because it is terribly complex, It is terribly competitive, and that includes in the black world as well as the white world.

And everybody, like I said, one of my favorite comments was, I'm going to go find the money when I was working in the building. And you go, there are gnomes out there with pots of gold or something that you go. What means you're going to steal it from somebody else's program or find it. You have to reprogram the funds. And that occurs in the black world just as a lot. as it does in the white world. He did lose a billion dollars.

He did? In funding, but that's from other, but the point was, his point was, well, people, because his program was so big and visible that, you know, everybody looking for money,

well, where do you look as people who have money? Sure. They're the banks. And he did. And it was shortly after that, I got a very, and I am convinced,

unrelated call that says we wanted to move to a new assignment and it was one you had to be a colonel and breathe and I said you got to be shipping it I am running the highest high tech stuff in the military and you want me to go do what and you know where General Stillwell came back into the program because he was as a supporter, and we didn't cover this. He had intervened before another side story about how I ended up in INSCOM actually and before that was that it was the new Mental Battlefield

article had come out. I had attended a couple of conferences in the Washington area and weird stuff and all that. And there was a colonel's wife who was running one of them, Jean Eek, and she was friends with the General Stillwell's wife. Stillwell is now a retired four-star, who's the number two guy in the Pentagon. So what happens was a meeting gets up. And I remember, I'm a munchkin down in literally in the bowels of the Pentagon.

So a meeting is set up for, I'm because of New Mental Battlefield, I'm supposed to go meet with him. So about 1230 this particular day, I don't know what's unique here. You know, Munchkins do not go see SACDF and Deputy Sector. No. Without a headbopper, you know, flag officers who were great. That didn't happen.

That was one-on-one, me and him. Were you nervous about what does the general want? Or you knew what he wanted. This was just a generic coming and talk to him. But this had been set up again through the Y. and all of that. So anyway, I went up, and we had a very interesting conversation. He says, well, who do you work for?

I said, I worked for General Treffery, and he was the Inspector General and blah, blah. No, okay, well, it was really interesting. Thank you. And I left. I said, well, that was interesting. I'd go back down in my office at about 1 o'clock, and about 4.15, the chief of staff, and the IG comes in and says, tomorrow morning you don't work here anymore.

That was that? He had moved me. So you had to take that assignment. You couldn't refuse it. Well, another war story, a friend of mine who had been at,

who had worked at the military personnel center, and I bumped into him in the Pentagon one day, and he's looking, this is years later, He says, you know, I had to keep your file in my desk drawer because we had nowhere to put it. Right.

You know, like I said, the promotion thing, I got handed from the time, you know, I made major on, I was never assigned by the system again until they pissed me off. And I said, thanks, and then Los Alamos came along. And then Nids came alone. Well, that's two iterations later. That's after Los Alamos. So can you talk about that Sunday morning in your kitchen?

I think how was there, Jacques was there, and you get a phone call from Bob? Well, that's another coincidence, if you will. I was working at Los Alamos. I lived in Sanofay. had a meeting with a number of people in, Jacques and Hal were two of them. I forget who all was there. But it's Sunday morning,

so we're getting ready to take people back to Albuquerque for the flights and the phone rings. And I'm Bob Begolo. I've heard about you. Are there any areas that might be of interest? The rest, as they say, as a matter of fact, there was a guy who did get funded,

who was there, Ferris Williams has since died but who got an independent project. Now this is before Nids and all of that. In fact, we had

he came over and we went to the Santa Fe Institute looked at it. He said maybe once and said, well, Marigal Mon is kind of the guy at Santa Fe Institute.

This is chaos area that they're working. And I had other friends who were supportive, who worked with them. It's probably not a good fit. And then he decided, well, he would create nids, but he wanted to be in Las Vegas, and that's what brought me here.

What turned Bob onto Skimwalker Ranch? How did he learn about that? There were some articles, as far as I know, there were some articles that were published, probably in Jesuit news. and about Sherman's and the ranch and that. Exactly how he made contact, I don't know. I was with him the day that he physically bought the ranch,

though, and the first one to spend the night. You were. The first, again, of the Nids people, and obviously Terry and Gwen were staying there. And it is a very, very strange place. No doubt about that. I mean, the incidents that happened. Having said that, I'm a bit of a digression.

Lost a bubble there a minute. That's right. I have plenty more. Many more questions. That first night, I think you said nothing happened. Nothing happened the first thing. Nothing unique happened, no. But eventually you saw some things there?

I, no, this is one of the questions. it comes up. By the way, it translates to Chris as well, because one of the things I asked him, is it the place or is it the person? I was going to ask you that. And we have, you know, lots of strange things have happened around me.

But as far as, you know, I have seen some things and all that, but they tend to be, I tend to be more of a, catalyst, if you will. Jesse Ventura is who I was thinking of. That's right. That he came in and interviewed me and was interested.

He said, well, can I go up there and go to that? I said, well, A, probably not, but B, you'd probably be bored. Because the problem is that these amazing incidents have happened, but it's not like every night, you know, they go out, oh, tonight we're going to have. X, Y, Z happen. Contraries of the program. One of the reasons they shoot rockets is because they got, you know, an incident to something to photograph. But, yeah, but some of the things that did happen are just absolutely beyond belief.

For example, is this a baby goat or is it a baby calf? Well, the calf is one. And what that particular incident is that they, Terry's got at the ranch, Terry stayed on, Karen Tarquin, the cabbing season, and he walks out, and he goes out, and people are familiar with the ranch now, perfectly flat, the escarpment to the north and the trees further out, finds a newborn calf and tags it, in ways that they tag it to identify it to the mother, drives across the, again, wide open field, 10 o'clock, bright sunny day, et cetera.

And he finds another newborn calf, and he tags it and weighs it. He comes back, calf one's dead. Mother's going out of his mind. There's a huge amount of stuff. It's just missing. From the animal? Yeah, it's been eviscerated, exanguinated,

and, you know, where the tag was, was cut off, looked like a laser cut, and all of that. The science board looked at we had a Terry come in. Well, George Annette was working with it. It was a DMV and flown up that day. We had Terry secure the sign,

got our vet on site and all of that. People said, well, and the exanguination of the blood went into the ground. I had suggested him they go to nearby. slaughterhouse get blood and come back and poured it on the ground and weeks later you'd say you know blood was poured on the ground here yep so there's no way that this went the science board the SAB that as you know world-class sorts of folks and Hale and Jock and Kitts and all of them are involved there on the

it's on the website and who they were was that with Whatever happened didn't happen there. Wow. Now, how do you explain that? Again, we know the, in our reality, we know the elapsed time, 45 minutes-ish, bright sunny day. We looked at all of the possibilities of how predators kill and that. None of them do anything like this.

You had cameras on there yet? You had cameras yet? Not in that area, no. Okay. No. And now, I've got to say, Brandon, of course, has put in a lot more sensors than doing a 24-cent, far more. We did not exactly sure of the sequencing on that, because we did have cameras that were facing here, what they now call the command center looking to the west.

And there's one of the most interesting incidents to me. You've got, you know, two cameras here, two cameras in front of it, so the one's in front. you can see. You have cameras that are up about 20 feet high, comes down, about half a roll of duct tape, holding them in, PVC, going back into their recording. So you know when the recording,

and what happens is in the front cameras, the wires are pulled loose up at the top. You come down, the PVC is pulled out. there's about three-foot chunk of wire that's just missing from this. Now, what was really interesting about it, this was kind of early evening, and it just happens that the cattle

at that time were right around the post. And we know that if anybody approaches the cattle, they would scatter. Nothing to happen. The other thing is this camera that's looking straight at it, and we have a second or third, time lapse photography on it, nothing.

How did all of this stuff happen and not get recorded? Because it doesn't want to be recorded. Well, like I say, it's a very, very strange place, and they have had many more

incidents, but it's not like it's a daily thing. It's not like you can go out. Brandon, now, if you go up, you have to sign literally life releases and all of that to go on. I think his people, I think the staff, you know, people who work for him are really good. You mentioned something about precognitive with the ranch. Does that mean that the future exists and can be read, or does that mean they can, they can sense your intent. Two different questions.

You say they. I don't know, it. I'm not, yeah. Well, that's why I use the it, and I have no idea how to find it. When you get into theoretical aspects, is it possible that the past, present, and future are all concurrent,

so it's not a, you know, time frame, and it gets into almost imponderable. I actually used the blood one because it seemed to know that we would bore the blood and, you know, before this sort of become another conundrum. Yeah. Yeah, more and more possibilities that just get to be terribly, terribly complex and hard to, the issue of what we do see in this, and I think all. of these phenomena are that the, our concept of time is wrong as we know it, as we experience it, as opposed to, you know, what time may or may not be. Because there's intent with these actions, but we don't know what it wants.

She seems to want to mess with us. Well, but you mentioned something I think is bigger, and that's the issue of intent in all of these areas. What's the end, you know, for people who become psychic or work with these things, intention seems to impact and maybe precipitate reality. But then how can that happen in the future if it's happening concurrently?

That's interesting. Any hitchhiker effect with you and some of this stuff? Well, you've seen my slide, I guess, on that. And I think that's bigger. The answer for me is no, with others. Just so what people know what we're talking about, there are many reports of people who have left the ranch and start having strange experiences.

And the hitchhiker specifically refers to beings or entities or, you know, something happened, as well as a number of psychic kinds of events have happened. I do know that many of them happen. The slide that I use, and I think this gets to be problematic when you get to, how are you going to study this, particularly from a government's perspective. We start on this. I don't think governments, I don't see how they can be involved with these sorts of things.

is one thing for you to study flying saucers, widgets, even orbs and that. To study werewolves is something quite different. The werewolf story is real. The individual may choose to come forward. I have met him. You've met the werewolf? No, I met the person. He met the person.

It was a very senior individual living in the Washington. area who had visited the ranch and white looked out and standing on hind legs in the backyard with red eyes of the werewolf and they go running off on you know bank link how do you know i think from a political perspective it would be suicide to go in you know of course enough to say I want to spend money to study UFOs and hard widgets, and now we're making the case that's even permissible, and it's one of the advantages that's come for is making it permissible to study these things.

But to now say I'm also going to sell a whole field of cryptozoology. Cullum, for instance, talks about being, is in the skin walkers in the Pentagon but talks about a dinosaur, small, but a dinosaur walking by on that. And you've seen in the program the whole dire wolf thing. Sure.

Things that, you know, have been extinct for 10,000 years. And so how do you justify or should, is this the proper role for? for government. See, I think this is where governments kind of got a ball. This is not what governments are to govern and they are to do certain

specific tasks in that. One of the issues that you brought up in other broadcasts has to do with the Department of Defense on the saying is I think it's the wrong question and also what you have to remember is

the Department of Defense. By the way, I'm guilty on this too. In my UFO book, I said there are two major issues. One was the fence, the other was air safety. But the issue of, you know, saying, no, advanced technology,

can make that sort of case. Do the plus side is, again, this has understanding how governments work. Actually, the DOD would find this great

because this is how you justify, you know, Now, we used to, you know, hypothesize the Soviet days, you know, what's the Soviet threat and all that? You're always projecting threats. Well, if this is a threat, in a way, that's good because that can justify funding. Yep. You need a boogeyman. Yeah.

Oh, always. We used to hypothesize what we call FST3, which was future Soviet tank three. Now, future Soviet tank one turned up. to be the T90, you know, that did. But if you looked at the capabilities that we were giving to two and three, which means I need more money to do more research, and maybe they can do that. I mean, that never-ending cycle.

But for them to say they wanted it, now, of course, that's what they do. The Department of Defense is supposed to defend from threats. So we define basically everything as a threat. Is that why the Air Force was at the ranch? I don't believe they were. I thought they were there for four years. You don't think so? Air Force? Yeah.

I don't think, but I used to get an inter-service rivalry, but I found them the most difficult to work with. On this topic for sure. Yeah, no, no. They would classify the words electromagnetic. I ran into some of this between Curtland and Los Alamos and whatnot. The infamous Curtland. Yeah, not. Yeah.

But again, well, the problem, one of the things I think is going to happen with Arrow, for instance, is my experience in relation. I personally had survived a lot of weird things in all of. that and accident and but eventually got shown the door yeah as well uh this is not what you'd call career enhancing no i mean if you're going to move up any of these sisters there are certain things you're supposed to do in gates and whatnot uh this is not one of them you mentioned about they don't want to fund the werewolves is this a naming problem you know UFOs no uips yes no uh... uap's changes and it does extrapolate a bit in the broader phenomena.

The one you brought up with Jeremy on underwater, for instance. I don't know if you get Tim Gallaudet in, talk about the underwater aspects of this, which we've known forever. But, yeah, the name fits better. UFOs did come with baggage, no doubt about that. because objects weren't all flying. And the downside, though, is you broaden that too much. And I believe Lou ran into this with funding in ATAP

because they were trying to do it unclassified in that. And people say, I do advanced threats. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And again, just gets back to not understanding. The funding cycles are absolutely vicious. before I get into

death in consciousness I just wanted to remind us that you wanted to read a passage from your book at some point so don't let me forget well okay unless you want to fire it off now well it is in the end

well by the way the first line that I wrote in the book is UFOs are real so that's the starting point the end is clear the universe is far more complex than we ever imagined. We are not close to solving the enigmas posed by UFOs. Rather, we're still on the front end of defining the fundamental issues and boundaries. And the notion that

we're going to get quick answers or something, or that there is, I guess the one thing I would disagree with in the secret of Skinwalker Ranch is the secret, and I would make it. secrets. I mean, it's not that simple, whatever, because there are so many different things going on there and in other places as well. I guess we're part of that same consciousness that whatever's doing weird things at the ranch, we're all part of that. Again, it seems like a dark force. Well, is it dark? Where it gets terribly difficult to contemplate is the notion of that everything is one, that you and I are not separate. I think one of the greatest illusions is the illusion of separation,

but it's very hard to contemplate how we can be the same and yet different. I heard you mention the other one end of war. I'm dealing with some folks, young ladies now who are developing a program that they hope to raise consciousness in general. population and how you explain this in term, it is terribly almost incomprehensible to begin with. It's one of the reasons of things I like about Evan Alexander's books on it is he talks about these levels of complexity and impossible for us.

But if we are all one, you take Larry Dassey's, you know, you know, not. non-local reality and certainly things like war make absolutely no sense however and you hear this you know you're by doing bad things you're harming yourself is just hard to right rectify from the physical perspective that's true that we live in today I would also mention that you look at the Greek but one of our problems that they say the answer is love you know, kind of what does that mean? Is that the Greeks had 12 different words for various forms of love. So, you know, that's not a catch-all that's going to be useful.

No. Tell me about that eighth night when you were in the tent in Siberia for a bunch of nights. Night number eight was weird. Well, actually, we had been. Well, no, we were in Mongolia and near the Siberian border. We had been up right on the way. We were chasing reindeer shaman. They've dealt with shaman all over the world.

What's a reindeer shaman? Well, there are the people that heard reindeer. Okay. I mean, like we have cattle, they have reindeer. Oh, I thought it was something. They turned into reindeer at night or something. No, no, no, no. No, no.

The people live with reindeer. very unique area. We had the backstory here, we flew to Ulambatar, which is interesting. You fly into Genghis Khan Airport and stayed at Genghis Khan Hotel and etc. And we flew from Ulambata to Marum, which is a small city west. By the way, Mongolia is a big place. say three times the size of France and that. Then we got in a land rover,

drove north on a road for about an hour, paid road, all of a sudden turned left and drove into the mountain. It was like driving into the Rockies without a road. And we did that for kind of a number of days. This particular incident, we had driven cross-country, You're literally, I had a small tent.

And the point is we could turn it every day upside down and shake it out and clear it. I don't want to pop up. There were three tents. My wife and I were in one, the driver and guides and the others. A whole bunch of other stuff that should. I'm trying to fit into this. Take your time. A whole trip.

It was just an amazing experience. So anyway This particularly we had dealt with Shaman I had to look up the shaman's name that had been with

doing a healing thing We had just come back We had gone Shaman Bull? No, bold is a different one Okay He's one that Where the thing

Precipitates out I almost brought that along I do have these things. I keep them in the safe because they tend to disappear. Sure. Bold we had seen going in. See, then we had stopped and we had gone on horseback. The trucks couldn't go any farther.

We were up. We went in two days, two days in 2000, right on. Now, the point here in Siberia, they don't even know where the border is. Right. Okay, this is remote. We're talking in really remote, remote areas. But we had come back and we were sleeping on O'Sheco River. And like I say, my wife and I want them.

We have bed mats on there. Wake up the next morning, lying between the two mats is a 50-pence Australian coin. You didn't bring that in? No. And I don't believe any people went in the night

and threw one in or something like that. You're up on, like I say, near Siberia, and here appears the 50-pence Australian coin. What do you think that meant? It meant there was a 50-pence Australian coin and I have no idea how it showed up there.

What were you doing out in the wilderness? What were you looking for? The reindeer shaman. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to get into it. My wife's a debilet with ayahuasca. We have dealt with shamans over the world.

This was a trip that was afforded us. Again, we're the only people, the only foreigners that are involved. And the guide who knew where they were, now you have to know where they are because they follow the ranger, the ranger, and it was getting warm, and one of the problems was that they would go up

and lie down on the glaciers. There were small glaciers all over the place. We walked over them and that. And, yeah, we had set up several, several ceremonies that were going. It was very interesting, this is where a UFO connection comes in. We got up there and they live in like tepees. There's all separate.

By the way, one of the things the Chinese have done is they get solar panels and things. So you get a little bit of electricity and whatnot. it was interesting that they tended to be stay in their individual tepees and I'm walking by one and I hear somebody speaking English. That's weird. So go in and I found out a woman. Well, she's native. She lives there. She used to live in Colorado. It had been there long enough. So it scared to crap. It turns out it scares the crap out of our guide because they thought she was a witch and could be witch them and whatnot. Why did they think that?

It was part of the folklore. Okay. Why, you know, I know what's the why files, but why just doesn't apply in some of these cases. So anyway, I started talking to her and I asked her about UFOs, and she told me a whole story about this valley used to be kind of an alleyway and you know they would see them on a consistent basis now this is an area that you know we're there late late summer but gets sealed off I mean once you're in you're you're there for the duration kind of like Antarctica or something but you don't travel in and out in fact it was

interesting because I'd asked her why You lived in Colorado and you're now living here full time. Yeah, I'd given up on Western society in that. But did say, no, there was a period in which there were lots of UFOs coming to the valley and they would see them and kind of a routine matter. Wow, were they craft or orbs? Oh, they were craft as the things that they would see, yeah. Wow.

By the way, you know, well, I think you hit the things I mentioned earlier is what you mean by a UFO. Right. And addition of orbs is, you know, a fairly new wrinkle to it and the question of whether you should and it gets into consciousness and orbs

and all of that. But, no, this was a traditional craft. Now, one of the things that heard you and Jeremy was what's happened over time is that you see, why do you see different ones and different kinds of things and going back in the 1800s with air ships? Yep. Literally and people dropping anchors and talking and all of that.

And, yeah, it does seem to a month, but this, I think, promotes to this issue of, you know, consciousness. Whereas our consciousness as to, you know, what it is. And in my view, what it seems to do is stay a step of head of where we are, but not beyond comprehension. Right. Like, Orbs is the newest thing, but in another generation could be something different. Yeah. So you were looking for Shaman. I've heard you say you've tried ayahuasca and you've not a fan of it.

Yeah. What did you see when you were in there? Oh, the psychedelics are absolutely brilliant. There's no doubt. Can confirm. I can confirm that. Okay. Well, we have dealt with ayahuasca and...

Are you premier with Santa Dime? Santa Dime is a religion based on it. And you use... Ayahuasca is the substance that's gone with it. We may get down what we did in Cortiba in southern Brazil as well. most of the stuff is in the Amazon, in the Qitos, and have also been in Ecuador. First of all, this is never going to become a recreational drug.

No. The side effects that come along are significant, which is politely. And you also, Victoria has learned how to work with this. It suggests the first few times that you, you know, are mostly, she, golly, look at the bright things and all of that. But what's most interesting with her, this, mostly second, what would happen, by the way, at these ceremonies, is that I would normally, I've only tried a couple times to use it once, another time was Santa Dime in Brazil. But being the one who was not drug, I would run all the recorders because I have the manual dexterity left to function with it. I can say that in my view, psychopharmacology does not address the issue that's involved. I have seen people take small amounts and have transformational experiences.

I've seen them take huge amounts and have no effect whatsoever. gets back to intention and preparation. I do think that if you're going to do, by the way, the word of caution out there really do, if you're going to do this, know the shaman or with whom you're working. Because, yeah, and particularly it's gotten popular, that there are some less than scrupulous folks,

particularly for women being in there, but you really do, having said that, and I do see there are now talking about some on PTSD, you know, some research going into it. You know, Sean and them talk about using Abagene. That surprised me a bit, but under-controlled conditions, the stuff from Africa, that should will kill you if you're not careful. And one of the problems with all of these are there's no quality control. and I found that each shaman kind of has their own recipe, and they kind of put stuff together, and they look,

and the same with dosage, they look at you and say, well, here's the amount you need. And, you know, given. Yeah, I would recommend going to, like, elusium or with a doctor. Yeah, well, yeah, there's not to be taken lately. No. But I do think there are effects that, you know, and PTSD, who was it? This was life.

She was there with the guys we do with Ron Wheelock, who's known as the Gringo Shaman down in Akito's. Interestingly, one of the few that have not jacked up prices and all that as has become better known. I was going to tell you, Victoria's experience, the most of the most. most strange, she had a world that goes to and was recognized and whatnot. The most amazing thing, though, was not on drugs, but at home here in Vegas, and they came here. Who she saw in the DMT world came to Vegas? Yeah, well. Right, wherever. This is a mental state. What did she see? Well, just that, you know, they were coming apparently asking for help, but again, this is a mental, this is not a physical being showing up and showing there. By the way, the most unusual thing that I saw, we were at, you know, Contal Blay?

Okay, these are African voodoo ceremonies and all that. And we had gone, we've gone several, but umbanda and condomble, or a couple of, these were from West Africa that came over. We were in Cortiba, Brazil, and went to a condobley ceremony, no drugs. And they started out, now there's about, in this case, there are about 10 foreigners there, Westmore and probably two, three hundred people who were there who attend to these ceremonies all of them all the time and so they said there was a priestess there does anybody want here well Victoria always volunteers she runs down and this

woman goes she's going down and doing this we're in the possession now okay a real full-scale possession. Your wife? Yeah. And all of a sudden, she's out on the floor spinning. We've got photos of this. She's spinning. Now, these are people who are used to seeing possession,

and not with gringoes, you know. Did you expect that? How does the kernel not jump? No, we didn't. As a matter of fact, I went up. We was taking pictures, and that guy grabs me. It's your reporter. I said, no, that's my wife.

thing. She'll be okay. Okay. Yeah. And her description of it is something, allowing this entity, into the body to experience whatever. She had no idea of what went on during that period, but it was kind of okay. But it was really dramatic. So she doesn't remember seeing anything in there? No, no, no. This is, I think, allowing. them to experience a human thing temporarily.

Now we've had other, we were in, probably don't know, Victoria, Brazil. I was down talking, this gets into the non-leath area and I had been brought down

talking to the governments of their military police and had looked up and she had found a Buddhist ceremony in, well, the Ombanda ceremony in Victoria. And we,

convinced our guy, had an amazing guy with us who was a special assistant to the governor happened to have had idetic imagery in that. And I also had a military police major. So we're going into the fovala with, you know, to say we were greeted with skepticism

is a, I don't know, true. So anyway, So we go in and explain, who are you? Two Americans, you know, kind of weird, and they heard about them and all that. So they let us in, and the ceremony starts, and it goes on for several hours. And so they're going to take a break,

and this is mid, now getting later afternoon. So our guys in that have got to leave. They said, I'll leave, I'll come back and pick you up. and they came to Victoria and said, don't know, you can't leave. And it turns out, you know, there are the people we've never seen before who recognize her.

Wow. Yeah. And we've had that before, and we've had this in Rio too in the ceremony with saying, you know, here's the goddess to call and all of that. Pretty, you say, unusual circumstance.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there any connection with the DMT world and NDE's? Well, is there any connection? There are those who think that DMT is a piece. I understand the methylptamine is the precipitating agent. It is not the thing. Now, it allows access to the thing.

I would equate it to more like it's turning on the set. Mm-hmm. You know, and the stuff, you're now accessing that channel. if you will. NDEs, there are folks who think that you can get a spontaneous release of DMT or something. Mary and I talked about it, you go, no, does not believe that to be the case, that we're spontaneously generating it and that, because that gives you the potential we're saying we're talking about hallucinations.

But like I say, her case is where in the precognitive years in advance and, you know, in general, I don't want to put in anything that suggests that we're dealing with hallucination because that's not the issue. Now, people interpret these things in very well, various ways. The other thing I said, I was the president of ions for a long time, and we had no staff whatsoever, so letters would come in, and I would answer them. And one of them was, well, I wasn't close to death, but I was out of body, I had this, I had that, and whatnot. And also, with any ease, most of them are spontaneous, and you have no idea of whether people are physically close to death or not. I use Mary Neal's case because underwater for 35 minutes

there's no doubt that we had lost physical capability. I've heard this from a number of others. However, most of the cases are spontaneous outside accidents, illness, or something like this. So they're not instrumented.

You know, the Pat oh I'm playing her name. Pam Reynolds is the name is the most probably most famous case in this but she's not alone and this is a case in which

a young woman had a brain aneurysm deep in the brain had some small children and was doing a very risky operation survival 50-50 wouldn't have done it except for young and whatnot and the point here

was that they had stopped the brain, well, they had to, they drained the blood out of the body, but they had to assist the opon, so they're firing electrical charge in measuring the cortical activity of the brain. You have

sensation of heart, sensation of breathing, sensation of cortical activity of the brain. By medical definition, this is not near death. This is death itself. and talks about a number of things.

She's one out of the room. Big one was complaining. They were playing Hotel California, which she thought was inappropriate. You can check in, but you can never check out. Right. But awareness of what everybody was doing at that time. And then goes off and meets with hope.

It's like the one with marriage. She has the original awareness at the location, but then going off into others. And again, in different time-space dimensions, as we know it. There are a few others. Was it Parva? There was Dr. Parva, who was an anesthesiologist,

who similarly had instrumented death where you can confirm what their physical state is at the time. And so therefore you cannot attribute it to hallucination. But I think when you get the transfer of information that proves out, proves to be accurate, you know, Bruce Grayson, because Bruce, and I recommend his book after, is one of the K-1s, Bruce is a good friend. But he talks about what got him going.

He was a psychiatrist in the hospital in the University of Virginia, going down the hall and talking to people, and then the person say, oh, you talk to and you're the one with a, he talks about being a spot on a tie and all of that. So you get, you know, externally verifiable information that there's not any normal means of that being transferred. My dad had one during an operation,

and he knew what was going on. how it shared death experiences have you have you looked into those oh you can't not let me digress just a bit but this has to do with the progression of NDE as I say we came into it well Ions was formed late late 70s we were talking about near death and we would frankly on I and never would have considered having mediums or things like that involved in the whole after death communication, they're now the rock stars at the conferences and whatnot. So you have had kind of a progression from, you know,

what you're talking about, a shared death experience is one where there's multiple people, not they're dying, but that are sharing the experience. And some of them continue on. and the humans and they talk about things like physical changes that take place for the shapes of the room and whatnot.

Another one that's getting terminal acidity is an issue that's now rising and you can sometimes get shared deaths this is where people who have been mentally incapacitated for a long period of time shortly before death

start talking to relatives and seeing entity Even when their brain is diseased, like from Alzheimer's or something, they're lucid. Yep. And this is a field that's sort of evolving. So you had instant near-death communication or near-death studies, which is this real kind of thing. And these cases are in the millions. I mean, we're, you know.

I was surprised that, you know, flying on. traveling quite a bit and you talk to people and how many people say again this gets back to always there so it's a matter of awareness and acceptability that it's okay to talk about these things and you know an openness of it you know at the time ghost and any number of other movies and TV programs now become kind of standard issue things, but as you talk about

this stuff with Bob Bigelow at all, I know that he's very, very into the field. What? Bob Bigelow. Specifically near death experiences. We had Jeffrey Mishlove in here

who won a one of Bob's awards. Yeah, no, no. Of course I know Job, I've known Jeff. The Public Agency's live here. across town. Well, Jeff had an advantage over everybody

because he had been running thinking aloud and now new thinking aloud. So he had decades worth of the, you know, just highest quality people that he could acquire. Not quite sure. Some of that would get into personal stuff with him. I think if he wants to talk about it, he could. But he did.

Obviously, he had the ranch and he came to an Ion's conference, is where they announced it, had the thing. Initially, the contest was not on a radar. That is something that evolved later. But continuation of consciousness is something he's been interested in for a long time. you know, his, well, the first time I met him was at MIT in 92. John Mack was having, and Dave Pritchard had a conference on, abductions versus NDE's, and that's where I gave the first talk on correlation.

The bad news was that I had to go right after John. tough act of thought. But having said that, I at first met Bob there, but that was just a handshake. I owe were you. What I did not know at the time was that his son had died

like within a month before that. So it had the interest. I found out later how many, he went to lots and lots of medium, very familiar. He had brought Dean Radin in the UNLV for

a while. So there were a precursor there and then they set up the big below chair of consciousness at UNLB. Charlie Tart held that initially and then Raymond came in for a while. Bad news was that stopped funding it and they were eating principal and eventually that ran out. But he's had a long interest and some personal tragedies that have happened there that I'm sure have driven certain factors and so he decided to set it up and brought Cullen back and well you covered this stuff for so long was there anything in your research that you believed and then turned out that you were wrong or or the or the opposite something that you didn't believe that you were surprised that was true?

Well, that's an interesting question. I would say there were a lot of things that I would have thought were highly speculative that I'm now willing to accept. Well, we talked about progression in NDE's, and in, the answer to your question is yes, and that has to do with the ADC and some things we're doing in after death communication. You know Gary Schwartz?

Hopefully talking to him tomorrow. We talk periodically. But he was with, he's not retired, but the University of Arizona and working on something called soul phone. Soul phone.

Yeah. What they're trying to do is to instrument the direct communications. And this is ostensibly with the help of some people that you would know immediately by name and that who seems to be involved from the other side. What he calls Team A is trying to assist in the communication. But this is, you know, in the 80s, never would have touched them because that's, you know, kind of outside the realm.

That's not scientific. And now you're getting the point. And Gary, I would look him up because he's got a number of books out on this. And he's, in fact, the reason we didn't talk yesterday is he was editing the book that is, forthcoming on the future of Soul Phone. Oh, coming up on two hours, so I think we'll say goodbye, Colonel John Alexander.

Thank you very much. It's been a lot of... You're local, so anytime you want to come back in. Because we didn't talk about directed energy weapons, non-lethal, we still have a lot more to cover. Whatever. We'll get it. That sounds. Whatever. Goodbye, everybody. That was Colonel John Alexander.

We covered fireproof shamans, spoonbending parties for Army generals, a werewolf in a Washington backyard and a coin that appeared overnight in a tent in Mongolia. The career, Green Berets, Los Alamos, the Pentagon, well, that's all public record. But some stories need a checking. Start with the one that sounds made up. John said the Army brought in Tony Robbins. Yeah, that Tony Robbins pre-fame to teach soldiers to shoot using neurolinguistic programming.

And that's real. John helped run it. And Robbins still tells the story. Everyone qualified in a day. The Army fixed its pistol scores with a few. future king of the firewalking seminar. I love this job. Now the white cells. Researchers wired people's own white blood cells to a chart recorder in another room. John's personal result, he could beat the polygraph, but he couldn't beat his cells. When the Army convened

a scientific panel to judge the weirdness, John took them to the lab. Two panel members donated cells. Minutes into John's talk, the man watching the recorder ran in and asked what happened. The report is real, enhancing human performance. National Research Council in 1980. 88. And it found no evidence for any of this. The lab visit wasn't in there, so we have this work. But the story that got me isn't from the lab. In the late 70s, John attended a workshop on death and dying, then nailed a teacher a thank you note. She was Elizabeth Cougla Ross, the five stages of Greece, Kubler Ross. Weeks later, she called his office and asked to meet, and she told him, I know a thousand people in Atlanta and I chose you, and I have no idea why.

John heard himself answer. I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. She ended up running his doctoral committee. That part is on paper. The phone call isn't. Look, I can't follow John everywhere. The werewolf is where I tap out. And I say that is a man who pays his mortgage with werewolf stories. But everything I could check out came back true. So the rest gets patience. And I don't hand out much of that. But John earned it the boring way with paperwork. He's local, so there will be around here. John's books are reality denied and UFOs, myths, conspiracies, and realities, both on Amazon, both awesome. And his site is John B.Alexander.com.

That's John B. Alexander. Everything I mentioned is linked below. I covered the Army of Splend vendors in my first Earth Battalion episode. That was about John, too. I think he, yeah, I mentioned him in that episode. That's a fun one. Though that's the men at stare at Steregoats. That's about George Cleaning is John.

Did you know that? I don't think we brought it out. Until next time, be safe. Be kind. Another you are appreciated. Bible said I would I love my UFOs and paranormal fun

as well as music So I'm singing the like I shus And it never ends No, it never ends All with M. Keltra Being only two of With the shadow people I'm Dirkwatcher