The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Luigi Vendittelli | S4: The Man Who Reconstructed Area 51's Secret Hangar

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Luigi Vendittelli was 9 years old when his grandfather came inside shaking, saying he'd just seen a flying saucer over Montreal. Nobody believed him. That moment turned Luigi into Canada's foremost UFO investigator — and eventually led him to cold-call Bob Lazar, spend five years rebuilding S4 from scratch in 3D, and uncover a 1941 government map that shows exactly where the hangar doors are. And then his bank tried to shut him down. This is one you're going to want to watch twice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking with Luigi Venditelli, former national director of Mufon Canada, and the filmmaker behind S4 The Bob Lazar Story, now streaming on Amazon Prime Video. Luigi spent five years building the most detailed 3D recreation of Bob Lazar's S4 facility ever put on film. And it started with a cold call to Lazar himself. And he hits it? Yep. Is Bob still taking calls? Because I got a great business idea for him to endorse.

No, no you don't. It's a fitness app. CrossFit 51. Every workout is you running from a black helicopter. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, and F&B inside a replica UFO. Sleak, modern. And in the bathroom, an optional probe. That's enough. What Bob found inside the UFO is the part that stays with you.

There's a detail about how light behaves in the craft that Bob couldn't have known, not unless he was actually there. Today we also get into his friendship with an aerial school witness, his two years training under Dr. David Jacobs, and his grandfather's 1965 siting that started all of it. This one goes places you don't expect. Let's go down to the basement. Hey, you can watch the Wi-Files on Spotify, new video episodes every Monday and Friday, and premium subscribers get fewer ads, which means fewer interruptions when things start getting weird. Luigi Ventatelli, welcome to the basement. It's such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

You're welcome. I'm going to try not to nerd out too much on the 3D stuff because you know we do that here. That's great. Let's do it. So I have to watch a lot of documentaries for what I do, and they're mostly terrible. So when I got your screener, I didn't know much about you. I certainly knew Bob's story. I threw it on for a couple of minutes to see what am I in for?

And the first thing that grabbed me is the music is unbelievable. It's so good. A big shout. out to James Gray, who's the composer who did all that. It has a like a Blade Runner, Van Gela's vibe, and I loved it. I thought maybe, is it just going to be the credits, but it goes through the whole thing. It's so, it's really well done. He reached out to us for, he's from Scotland, and James is a BAFTA award-winning composer

and said, I want to work with you guys. I'm going to do all this for free for now, and we'll figure something out. I'm like because I didn't have a, when he reached out, we're kind of starting to run low on budgets. I'm like, this is going to cost a lot of money. And he says, no, I have a passion for this. I want to help you. And he said, he sits down with me. I grew up with my father being a big opera and classical music fan.

And I wanted the film to have a memorable music to it. And I said, my father made me grow up with Giuseppe Verdi music. And he says, Giuseppe Verdi, perfect. And he knew everything about it. And I said, but I also. So it has to have like an 80s ominous to it. He says, done. Let me send you some stuff when I come up with it.

And he did. And we went, okay, we're working with you. It's perfect. I mean, when you release the soundtrack, I downloaded it immediately. So that's rolling in my car. That's great. That's great.

Let's start with your grandfather's story. Yeah. He's out in the balcony. What happened? So in 1965, my mother's father, my grandfather, who was basically like my second father. I spent a lot of time with him when I was in Italy as a kid and Montreal and as a kid. Like we always were together all the time.

He would take me around Rome. I know Rome because of him. He was one of the most important people in my life. And he was such an honest, dedicated grandfather. I was like his son, basically. Parla of Italian a house. We have always talked about Italian. Italian.

Perfect. Perfect. Oh, I love it. So, and he was a very big reason why I spoke Italian. He's very strict, actually, when it came to that. He says, you have to learn it perfectly. So I was able to learn Italian and speak it like the people in Rome did. That was important.

We stayed in Rome. Anyway. And so, in 1965, five years after he moved to Montreal with my grandmother, my mom, and her sister, he was outside on a balcony with a friend of him, a friend of his who was visiting from Italy. His friend's name is Corrado Denga, who was a famous soccer player in Italy, by the way. And they were outside on the balcony smoking a cigarette,

as most people did in the 1960s. And in front of the apartment building, it was a field. It was like an open field at the time they hadn't built yet. And he's looking out at the horizon and sees this orange light coming in real. really fast. He says, really, really fast. And so it caught his attention and he, you know, motioned to his friend. Look at that. And so his friend turned around and they said, the time it took them to kind of stabilize themselves to, you know, look at this thing. It was above them. That's how fast

from the horizon. So that's a fast object. And he said, it was a disco volante. It was a flying saucer. Flying disson. It was silver. It was a perfect. circle. It was metallic. Silver metallic, perfect circle, and it had flames coming out of it. And he was like, what is that? And he says

completely silent and flew very fast over them. So they ran inside the apartment. My mom remembers this. She was inside the apartment playing with her sister and remembers both my grandfather in Corrado walking in going, disco Volante, disco, like

screaming, and they run to the other side. and they're getting scared, like what's going on, and they went to the other window, and it was already on the other horizon. And my grandmother was there, and she was like, yeah, you know, he and Corrather ran in freaking out that they saw. We didn't see anything because it was gone.

But I think what happened was she believed it to a certain degree, and so then my mom, because she was there, not believed the flying saucer, but something flew over the house. Because your grandfather wasn't someone to make up stories. Oh, God. First of all, my grandfather, first, extremely old-school Catholic Italian, like old school, very strict in terms of how he brought me up, you know, raised me, always, you know,

sit properly at the table, always wash your hands, always wear good shoes, always be nice to people, like, go to school, study, like very old school. and he was not the type at all to invent some story like that. And he was also, I should say, back during the Second World War, he was a prisoner in a concentration camp in Hanover, Germany. So he spent two years as a concentration camp, in a concentration camp and almost died. Why was he in a camp?

He was an Italian military. And the SS came into the village, actually got caught at a train station. So he and other soldiers were taken at a train station, put in a train, and he said, there was no seats, and he says, I was standing all the way to Germany. And we were not allowed to sit down. So that was a horrible thing, apparently. But he stayed in Hanover in a concentration camp. And he eventually got all this paperwork and was also later on, the German government sent a lot of money to my grandfather because of that. He was able to prove that he was a, a prisoner, and the German government actually had a compensation plan for prisoners that were sent to concentration camps. So he got a bunch of money back in the early 2000s because of that.

So the historians who are screaming right now, Italy and Germany, they were allies for a while. Yeah. Until they weren't. Until they weren't. Absolutely. And when they turned on the Italians, they turned on the Italians viciously, not a little bit. I mean, my grandmother used to say all the time, she would talk about the horrors of the Holocaust and all that stuff, but she would always say, we were also victim. Yes.

You know, so it's something that a lot of people sometimes wonder, really, the Italians? Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of people died and that was a horrible time. But anyway, being in the military, he said, I knew what aircrafts were. He even remembered when he was saved in Hanover. He remembered saying, I could see the planes with the black star. on them. It was the Americans. So he always said, the planes with the black stars saved us, which is a cool thing. Because it's the American military

who came to save them. And I get choked up because I remember the stories really, really well. And anyway, he knew about this stuff. And he's not a guy who used to lie to me, or lie to anybody, for that matter.

So I took him very seriously. And I'm like, he saw a flying saucer. And he would say this occasionally in the house, you know, when people come over. My grandmother would be like, you know, say that story. And then he would say the story and everybody would be laughing. It was like, ah, ha, ha, that's ridiculous, you know.

And he was never laughing. He was always the one guy in the room who wasn't giggling, wasn't laughing. And I always used to like look at him and go, why is everybody laughing? It didn't make sense to me. Did he get annoyed? No, he was sad. I saw him. I think he was sad.

It wasn't, he wasn't annoyed. What about Corrado? Did he ever mention the story again? I don't, I'm sure he did, but he was living in Italy. Corrado was living, was visiting my grandfather, my grandmother in Montreal. They went back to Italy, so I'm sure he had, but back then, how are people keeping track through a letter? You're not going to start getting, you know, it's not, it's not like today where you could text

and talk all the time. So there was, there was big distances in communication back then. that's how it was uh but he would always be very very perplexed i would see him like kind of disappointed there's the right word disappointed that it was always a joke to him so i took it very seriously i remember it it sparked something in me and i said he doesn't lie what did he see like you know why are we why are we pretending that didn't happen and obviously you know as a kid i read about flying saucers on whatever I would find.

So I'm like, is that stuff real? I wasn't sure, but I was like, he certainly saw something. So it sparked a whole journey in my life. Let me tell you, and it changed everything for me. I think that was without a doubt the moment that it got me on the trajectory

and I never stopped. And how old were you when you made that decision? Nine. Nine. Yeah. So take us from age nine to Mufon. Well, when I first started looking, well, I wanted to get information on it. And I was a real geek when I was a kid. I was, I guess I was really, you got to remember this is like the 80s, right?

It's not popular to be a geek in the 80s. I don't know if you remember that. Tell me, girl. Yeah, okay? It was bad. So I would use my summers to really dive deep on science stuff. Because actually, there was nothing on flying saucers that I could find, especially in Montreal. So I had to just, I thought, if I buy astronomy books, I'm going to learn about flying saucers.

I, that's my, you know, I'm a kid, I'm very naive. So I still have all my astronomy books from when I was a kid. I used to get a small allowance, put money aside. I would help my grandparents at the market. My father's parents were at the fruit market. I would help them, I get money, put it aside, and buy astronomy books. And my mom was always like, you're spending all your money on books about space. Like she was really like, why don't you go out and play?

You know, I was a real geek. So anyway, and I got really, obviously, I got really educated on astronomy because I'm reading them. But there was never anything about flying saucers. At the end of the books, there was always like a few pages, potentiality of life in the universe. And I'm like, okay, you know, like, but this is not giving me anything. And eventually we went to Plattsburgh, New York. and that's just about 45 minutes from Montreal drive. My mom and my grandmother would go there shopping all the time

because the stores in America were much better than the stores in Montreal at that time. Even a small place like Plattsburgh had way better stuff than Montreal. Really? Oh yeah, yeah. It was so much cool stuff. So we would go there almost like every second or third weekend.

So my sister and I in the back seat and I remember playing Michael Jackson and my, in my Walkman and going to Plattsburgh. And actually, every time I listen to Michael Jackson, I remember those trips going to Plattsburgh. And basically in a bookstore, I see something of Mufon. I see a Mufant.

I think it was like a pamphlet they had. And I'm like, oh my God. You know, it's like something about UFOs. And you could become a member. And I'm like, I couldn't wait to fill it up and send it out. So I sent that. And they said, what's your specialty? And I don't know.

I was like 12 years old. or something, and I said, I don't know, astronomy, because I had read so much. So my original first card ever got said specialty, astronomy. That was crazy, but I received a letter from them when I applied for it. And it was Walt Andres, who was the executive director, you know, a big director of Mufon. And he said, you are officially the youngest member of Mufon in the world.

And that actually intimidated me. I got scared. I remember going, oh, maybe I, like, now what do I have to do? Am I too young? Am I too young? Like, do I have responsibilities now? I was like, maybe I bid off too much here. You know, like, I don't want to, I felt like maybe I should call them and tell them I'm not an astronomer.

You know, that's what I thought was like, you know, anyway, I started up. I obviously subscribed to the Mufon. journal, I started reading about all that stuff. That was really interesting to me because finally I was getting traction on the stories about UFOs and all that. Obviously they were called UFOs back then, not UAP. I still call them that. I'm not with that narrative. Yeah, I'm a UFO guy. Exactly. So and so basically that propelled me into the more I read about it, the more I wanted to read about it. And I had to do it in kind of in hiding. I remember my friends would come over. I had a lot of people that made fun of me because I was into UFOs. I was younger and it's like the

80s. It was not cool. It wasn't cool. It was not cool. It was not something that people would always make fun of me because I was into UFOs. What are they saying? What do they say to you? Oh, it was just like, oh, you believe in that stupid stuff? You know, like basically, why do you believe that's crazy Luigi's a freak, you know, and it's like, why? You know, why am I a freak? But I think it was like a stigma. It was like 100% a public perception of UFOs. I'll say even now, and it kind of feels good to say it on a big platform like yours,

when I went to my prom, I'll never forget, there must be a video of this somewhere, somebody from my prom is to videotape this back then. And I graduated in 1989 when Bob Lazar. went public and the director of the school was up on stage and he was handing up handing the diplomas at prom and you got your diplomas at prom? Yeah, they gave it to us at prom. I remember that. Okay. And basically he said, and now Luigi Venetelli, the guy who believes in aliens and everybody was

laughing and I had to go pick up my diploma while everyone's like, ah, you know. Is he just roasting you? Yeah. And I'll never forget it. I'm making it. I'm talking about it now, right? And I was like, wow. And so that kind of killed my interest to go too far. Because I was getting to the age where I wanted to start dating girls and go out and have friends. And, you know, it's like I don't want to be a geek all the time. So I was doing it in hiding most of the time.

Were you doing any work from you from you from? Were you investigating? The only thing I did, actually, yes, one thing I did was there was one case. You probably remember it, the Gulf Breeze, Florida case, right? and I found that to be interesting because there was so many pictures and there was a guy called Ed Walters who had taken those pictures

and I took it upon myself to write him I just found his address I remember where I wrote him and I said I'm this guy in Montreal I'm interested is there any more stuff that you could send and I have an original letter obviously from him I have a videotape he sent me

that I still have and it was made for me and it was Ed Walters talking to me about what had happened and included his home videos of what he saw, the craft, right? Wow, was that the acorn shape? Yeah, it kind of... It was not an acorn, but yeah, it was like a...

Yeah, like a fat... Yes. Yeah, like a, let's call it a fat flying saucer. It wasn't a disc. It wasn't a disc. It was very... Yeah, and it... I mean, there's been a lot of controversies,

a lot of things apparently saying, oh, it's not real, it's not true. I don't know, but at the time, it wasn't determined to be fake yet. And so I was in communication with him, And so the local Mufon chapter found out, I must have sent a letter to somebody. And by the way, everything was letters back then. There was no email, right?

So I had sent a letter to somebody saying, I'm in community. I was super excited. I'm in communication with this guy. So they invited me to a Mufon event in Quebec, Montreal. And I tell my dad, could you drive me to this place? How old are you now? I was 13. Okay.

And my dad's like, okay, what's going? going on and I said I have to do a presentation. My dad's like, what is the way? So we go into this place, I'll never forget. He came there because he was really concerned. And he walks in the room and there's all these people with white hair. And he says, what are you doing here? And I said, Dad, you'll see, you know, and they, oh, how are you?

You know, and they were kind of very nice to me because I was a kid. Obviously, they're like super happy that somebody of my age group was there. I was obviously the only young guy there. And I talked about, I didn't present it. It was more talk about, oh, you know, I've communicated, this is the video, they played the video. And it was the very first time I participated in something. And I got in the car and my dad said,

every time you talk to these people, let me know. Because for him, it was just like, what are you doing with all these adults? Right. Right? Because you're a kid. And I said, well, they told me to come here, you know. And you're taking it seriously, right?

Oh, absolutely. Right. It was very, one of the things that I'll never forget is, My dad's no longer with us, but he was always supportive. Always. He was the most supportive dad in the world in what I was doing. He was also conservative, Catholic, old school, but 100% supportive in what I was doing.

He supported me every time he would hear somebody make fun of me because I was into UFOs, he would back me up at 100%. So that was something that was amazing. my mom too and she's she's still with us and she's freaking out that her son made a movie but you know and for me it was at least my parents are not against this because a lot of people also had that happened to them where their parents or their families were not supportive of looking into this topic so that's the first thing i'd done and that essentially then got me really i mean i i must have read

i don't know 40-50 books when i was in my teens about it and that's the first thing i'd done and that's I found a picture recently. I should send it to you. I sent it to Chris Ramsey, who's a friend of mine. I said, dude, check this out. And it's a picture of my bedroom back then with all my books. And you see all my UFO books. And it's an old picture in my, you know.

And he was like, oh, my God. It's like, yeah, you see, I was a freaking geek. You know, like all the books were about UFOs. So all I did was read about it for the longest time. Definitely send us that picture. We'll throw it. I will. I will.

And it's like there's my telescope. in the picture and stuff and those, like, legit geek. It sounds very familiar to me, Luigi. You're home here. Good. Well, I mean, now it's cool. Right. You know, like now we're having a conversation about this.

And I find it's so, such a breath of fresh air. And I love all these new people getting involved in it. And it's, there's traction. There's people listening, you know. But, and so all that time I investigated, obviously was doing, not investigations. I guess just researching. information like a lot of people do and eventually got, you know, really involved and became national director over the years. But what we were doing in between? What kind of investigation,

what kind of work? Well, the biggest investigations I personally participated in were always in Quebec. That's the ones I really put a lot of effort on. I used to manage some of the investigations that were happening outside of the Quebec province, but I wasn't the investigator. door, I was just basically managing the investigations. The ones I personally participated in were a lot to do with the black triangular crafts that were out there. I participated in investigating the one. There's a big event that happened in 1990 in Montreal downtown where they saw something in the air in the clouds. And there was like a lot of witnesses. It's called the Plaza Bonaventure UFO event and a very good friend of mine, Mark Saint-Germain,

wrote a book about it and basically looked into a lot of local stuff that I could be active in because I wasn't traveling. I also, it's important to note that was not my full-time job. That didn't pay the bills, by the way. Okay, so it's important to make that little caveat on the side is that's not how you make money. You didn't make money then and you're not really making money now in this field. And a lot of people who, you know, call us grifters or something like that, it's like I would really like to know where that money is. Because a lot of times it's an investment out and no return. And the only return is information. That's it, right? So I had, I started a company in many years ago, spent years in China going back and forth in China.

You were doing merchandise? I'm a merchandiser. Products. I'm a product developer, a brand developer, specifically through merchandise. So I basically have been behind the scenes for many, many years, producing merchandise for people who have brands, right? So it's like when I see your cups, you know, basement,

anything that's merch, I would be the guy behind the scenes developing stuff for people. I also own a license in Montreal. I own the public transit commission license. So we do, it's like when you go to New York and you see the MTA subway stuff. I have the Montreal. I have the

Montreal license for all of that. And I've been producing stuff for the NHL and a whole bunch of museums, some of the biggest museums in the world. I produced stuff for them. So that's what paid the bills, right? So I was doing that and that at the same time. And as I was, you know, eventually seeing that it was finally gaining traction. And I say this, even a long time ago, it was like a real difference, even 10, 15 years ago,

it was still super, super not good, but not as bad as the 80s and the early 90s. Well, before you bring us up to date, what does an investigation even look like if you're inside Mufon? So the first thing that happens at Mufon is there's a CMS database, they call it, okay? Which is what, customer management? Yeah, it's kind of like a customer management. You know, it's like an internal, you plug in all the data of an investigation. Call comes in.

Call comes in. Somebody who's a field investigator. So they could call Mufon. They'll say, all right, we're going to refer you to the local field investigator of your area. So if it's Nebraska or something, they'll reach somebody out there. That person then contacts the witness, goes through an initial call and kind of basically assessing, is this even worth plugging in? Because most aren't, right?

I would say 98% aren't. Okay, so and a lot of people get upset when I say that, but that's the truth. I mean, the reality is a lot of people did think they saw something, but it wasn't, it wasn't E.T. Okay. It was, it was a tremendous amount of misidentifications or very, you know, like the moon is very bright, but if it's behind a cloud, it could have somebody who's not wearing their glasses, they could see something else. There's so many aspects. to it. So there's an initial screening process, and a lot of times through the screening process, nothing happens. But then if there is something that happens, and there's a lot of cases, by the way, I mean, there's a lot of people that call in, and those things then get entered in CMS. So then if the investigator deems it to be worthy of, either they go meet with the witness, if it's in proximity to them, or if they could do it, because a lot of them are, doing this on their on on their on their free time and again nobody's getting paid to do this or they

could do it over the phone and now the beauty of zoom or video calls as probably because i'm not in it anymore but it's probably gotten even easier because you could do a video call and kind of save yourself a trip you let's say you go see the the witness you meet with them uh you know that also is a big determinator of whether you're dealing with somebody who is on it. I don't want to call them dishonest. Are they honestly assessing it properly for themselves? That's the right way of saying.

They're not dishonest. But are they just overly excited? Right. Because there's a lot of that. Of course. If you go out looking for something, sometimes you're going to find it. Especially if you want it to be.

Right. You know, like I saw it. I saw that. What did you see? You know, it's like, a light. Okay, what did it do? It was just moving near the trees. that could have been a plane.

You know what I mean? No, I never see planes there. Well, it doesn't mean the plane didn't go there. You know what I mean? So sometimes it's a frustrating thing. And I became, I was very strict, I was very strict, by the way. I think the years of experience was making me very strict. So I was also not getting along with some of the investigators who also they wanted it to be that so that they could be an investigator.

on a case. A lot of hate is going to come at me from saying this, but that's the reality of it. Well, people know that Mufon's kind of infamous for infighting and the politics inside between the believers and I don't want to call you a skeptic, but it's more like a tight funnel. That's right. If you have a tight funnel, then what comes out is really important. That's very, that was crucial because otherwise we're wasting resources. Yes. Period.

The reality is, regardless of how, in terms of evidence, obviously everybody says you have a picture, you have a video, do you have something, do you have tracks, you have a landing, you know, if they landed, do you see something, do you have radiation, do you have a detector that you went there, anything? So those are obviously the ones that are of most interest, because now you have something. You have a tangible piece of something that you can work with other than I was outside, I was smoking, cigarette, I saw light in the sky. Okay. And I say that

thinking, Mike, that's what happened to my granddad. And that's what made me go. So I'm not disputing that that's not possible, but we have to be careful and not immediately saying that's a flying saucer, a UFO, or whatever. But when they have a picture or a video

and it is interesting, then yeah, that information would get put into CMS. There's a whole list of questions you have to ask the person. And then there's also, as a director, I had access to all investigations. So I had access to seeing if there was a pattern in that area within a certain time. So if somebody said, I saw this long black object in the sky and they're in Winnipeg.

Okay, well, do we have anything around Winnipeg that's saying that? If you hear another one, oh, that's definitely of interest versus No, I don't hear. So it could be interesting, but okay, what do we do with it? I still have people reach out to me almost on a daily basis, even the fact that I did this film, they think that I'm actively investigating. So they'll be like, check this out. I have a picture, and it's like, you know, it's like 8,000 feet away, and it's a little dot,

and I'm like, okay, I mean, what can I do with that? You know, it's not helping. I appreciate it. I understand the need to share it, but we're not going to get anywhere with it. even if I could zoom in and see that it doesn't have wings, okay. Right. You know, this is not going to make the cut.

It's not going to make a cut, right? So there was a lot of, you know, discarding of stuff, and there was. Did you come across anything that passed all your tests? Oh, absolutely. You did? Oh, absolutely. You have a favorite? Again, black triangular crafts is the one I really put a lot of effort in.

There was... You saw the object? Or we're talking lights in a shape? Oh, object. Object. Absolutely clearly undeniable black triangular craft. Not a TR3B or anything? No.

Well, again, you know, everybody says TR3B. I don't think it's a, from what I heard from witnesses and from the time frames that they come in, which I'll say this, as I was investigating, and we're talking, you know, a good eight, eight, nine years of invest, very, very active investigating. I would meet people who would be like, hold on, my wife will talk to you. You know, they had something happen.

And the wife comes out and says, I saw it in 1996. Right. And I never went public because I didn't, and my kids saw it. None of the kids are grown up. I had a case, in fact, the witness saw the black triangular craft. I meet with the witness. And then his wife says she had seen it. She had seen it with her kids, like they were remarried or something.

And the kids weren't at home. And I said, could I speak to them? They're adults now. They were outside playing in 1996. And they said there was a black triangular craft right on top of the trees with all these colorful lights. They said, come a narbo de Noel, in French, like a Christmas tree. And it's like, oh, so. And I spoke to these adults.

And they say, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was there. Now, this is something that wasn't current. This was in 1996. They never reported it because they didn't report it. but because now somebody was in contact with me reporting it, I'll let me go get her and then boom, boom, boom. And you're finding out, oh, really,

a black triangular craft was run here in 1996. What it did is it made me start questioning, is this really a government thing? Like, if it was the government, and it's always possible, by the way, I don't ever omit the possibility that it's terrestrial, by the way. That's a very important thing. You can't assume E.T. is driving this thing.

If it's terrestrial, well, that means that something was already in play in 96, that's long time ago, right? And if that's the case, why would they be flying at low altitude or hovering, if you want to call that, no sound, in the Laurentians north of Montreal where there's nothing? There's no reason for being out there. there's no air there's an airport but it was it's a it's a fedex lens there ups it's a cargo airport there's nothing that would be like yeah the government is testing secret aircrafts and they're flying over people's cabin like the lorencians are known for ski resorts and all that like why would you fly there yeah the sound is always interesting because we're here in Vegas so we see test flights all the time they're so loud they'll set off every car alarm in the city so when you say it

made no sound. Zero sound. That is a big deal. And there was one incident that I, the most credible, I would say the one that really, really struck me. It happened in 2013. The gentleman reached out to me in 2014 because he found out I existed because he didn't know who to call in 2013.

And I finally reached out to him. He was in southwestern Ontario. And he said, this is a normal everyday, you know, blue-collar guy driving a pickup truck, wearing a baseball cap, plays baseball, cool dude, but not a UFO guy.

He's coming home to in the morning. He was with his friends, driving in the middle of southwestern Ontario, turns, and there's a small town that you blink and you miss it in, in Ontario. And he says,

he sees what looked to him like fire in the sky, and it was coming down. and he thought it was a helicopter on fire. So he's just like, oh, you know, like, let me go help these guys. And it went to the right. So he turned to the right and he's driving, you know, trying to see where it's going down. He eventually stops his truck because there's a church and the triangular craft. It was a black triangular craft.

He saw it. He says, I could clearly see it. Had lights on each end. And in the middle of it had a plasma. It looked like plasma. He said it looked like lava moving. I've heard this description. And it was right above the church tower where the cross is.

And he was like, you know, he stops the truck. He stops the truck right on the road and puts it in park, opens the door and puts one foot out and one foot in truck. And he's looking up at this thing. And he's like, what the hell is that? And he says, in an instant. And he says it was so fast that it was at, I don't let's say 100 meters away, 100 yards away. It went right in front of him at 20 feet below the street light. Below.

Below the street light. Okay. How big was this thing? He says it was around 20 feet in length, if you want to call it. He said it looked like it was a shiny black diamond. It looked like shiny black diamond little bricks. He drew it for me like these little bricks. And he said the top of it,

wasn't flat. It was like flat and then came up a little bit at a point. But he couldn't see it very well from this angle. And he's looking at this and he's like what's this? And he said there was not

it was, first of all he said it didn't make any sound but it also took all the sound away. I couldn't hear anything. That's interesting. Yeah. He says it was complete. It's like a you're in a sound room where you don't hear anything. He said, that's what it felt like.

It was complete silence. That's going to track with some of the physics with Bob's story and others. I believe so. And so, now, what made it really interesting when he's describing this to me, and he said something that made me kind of believe him really quickly, he says, I thought that they had a projector somewhere and that they were going to come out with balloons and I was going to be on candid camera or something,

because he's like, what am I looking at? You know what I mean? He's like, it has to be a projection for it to move so quickly. That's what he's, he's not thinking it's a real thing. He's like, where's the cameras, you know? I think that's why there's so few photographs

or video of things like that. My brother had a setting similar. You're so out of your element. You're not thinking. You're not thinking. You're just like, what is this? And he said it to me, he said, Luigi,

if I took out my camera, my phone and snapped a picture, I would have had the best picture, in the world of one of these things, but it didn't even occur to me, he said. I was going, what am I looking at? It's happening, you know, live, so you're just focused. He says it tilted a little bit. There was a tiny little cemetery right to his right, really small cemetery. And it just went like that and it moved so quickly over the cemetery ground. And he's, you know, he's scared, because now it moved again.

So he's just like, what's it going to do? And it had a red, a laser, if you want to call it a laser. But he said it was like a sewing machine. Doing this on the cemetery ground. It was scanning it, but like the laser was going to like really fast, like a sewing machine. Did you ever hear about the devil's den siding? No. This is the exact same story, same craft, same laser beam.

Really? Penturch in Wales, similar, but Devil's Den is this exact story. The craft, the thing in the middle, and what really set me off is this laser description. They said they saw the same thing, this repeating laser, and it looked like it was scanning their campsite. Exact same story. Oh, wow, I didn't know that. I didn't know the story. So this is exactly what he's seen.

When he saw that, he said, that's when I got scared. Yep. He says, at that moment, I got scared because he's like, is that a weapon? because he doesn't know. He's just like, what is that thing? Why is it doing that? So he kind of stepped into the truck a little bit, looking at it through the cabin window on the other side.

And he said, it basically just tilted and slowly flew away. He says, it flew away behind the trees and that was it. Now, when he met with me, he was so worried that I was going to make fun of him. He was super worried. And he kept saying, I'm, dude, I'm, I really saw this. And I'm like, okay, I believe you. He's like, I don't want you to think I'm crazy, man. I'm like, no, I don't think

you're crazy. But he was so concerned. It was so not his thing that he thought, I can't even believe I'm talking about this because I didn't think this could ever happen to me. And I was like, I believe you. So I even investigated him. I said, to make sure I want a second opinion, There's a man who I'm very thankful for knowing his name is Professor Don Donderry from McGill University in Montreal. He's written books on this. He's a friend of mine. He's getting older now, but still doing well. At the time, I called Don. He's a PhD in perceptive psychology. He's done a lot of work for the government and all that. He's very well respected. And I said, I would like for you to meet this witness just to assess the person. I want to have a second

opinion and I and I introduced so Don came out we went to Ontario together and met with him and when we walked out of there and got in the car Don said he's he's completely sane he's a he's a he's saying the truth well he says what felt like he was being 100% honest and he this guy kept saying I don't want this to go public I don't I don't need the you know the attention or anything so why would he do that why would this guy not want any attention very credible. You know, for Don to kind of validate that for me because I'm, if I get to a point where, okay, I really believe this, I need somebody else to like validate that I'm not missing something here, right? And so it was interesting. And then for that to be validated, that got

me really intrigued in what these cases were happening in, with the black triangular crafts. So I started mapping them out. I can share this with you so you can show it on on the screen. after we're done, but I have an image of that map of all the sightings of black triangular crafts at that time, all around that area, all the way to around Lake Ontario, to Toronto, north of Toronto, and believe it or not, in the Laurentians in Quebec. What do you think they were doing there? I have no idea. There's no pattern to the sightings?

I have no idea. No, just people seeing it. So between 2013 and 2017, there's 200 catalog cases in that area. That's a lot of people. Why would all these people claim to have seen a black triangular craft? Even if we went, which is unlikely, but if we discarded half of them, that's still a lot of people. And for every one of those, there's 10 that didn't report it. Oh, for sure.

I mean, that's actually, it's a really good point that you raised because I had, by me doing this, I met with people who didn't want to report it. But they said, yeah, I saw something, but I don't want to talk about it. Do you guys check with law enforcement? Oh, absolutely. I worked with the, because I was director, I had a contact in all the different police. So I also worked with RCMP, which is federal police. I had a contact with them. I had a contact with MUC police. of course you have to with La Surtes du Quebec which is the provincial police there

there was a Surtes du Quebec police officer who saw it but he didn't his wife his wife talked to us with her name but he didn't want to he was like no no no no no I don't want to so we have his testimony he saw it but he wouldn't

talk about it so and this is frustrating and it frustrates a lot of people absolutely agree that it's frustrating because they say, well, if it's evidence, why don't they want to talk it? Why wouldn't they put it out? Well, think about it. They have families, they have friends. Forget us. Forget, forget the audience who wants this. Their lives are affected if they suddenly say, I saw something anomalous in the air. It's their prom story for you. Exactly. They don't want that.

They don't want that in their life. They don't need it. And I respect that because they have They have their own personal reasons for that. So it's an important thing to bring up when you're talking about investigating this stuff because there's a human component to all of it too. So I consider that to be some of the most compelling stuff that I ever worked on. And I eventually started working alongside one of the Ariel School witnesses. I was just going to ask you about your interest in Ariel School, maybe just a quick sum up of the...

Sure. This audience knows the story, but a quick sum up of Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is a case in 1994, in the middle of a recess at 10.15 in the morning, at a small elementary school in rural Zimbabwe and Rua, Zimbabwe. Kids were playing outside. Over 60 kids were playing outside. And the teachers were inside having a teacher's meeting.

And suddenly they see three objects in the sky, three craft, three flying saucers, if you want to call them, silver discs. one of them landed at about 100 meters, 100 yards from the school. They had a place where they could play, and they had these logs, these wood logs, that were all around, and they called them the log barrier, so the kids couldn't go beyond it.

Sometimes they would jump around the log barrier. And the kids are playing there, and this thing landed outside the log barrier landed, and they're all obviously, what is that, what is that? They heard a high-pitched sound, and it went away, and then they're seeing these, they didn't know what it was, but they saw people running, right, from a distance.

And my friend who passed away, Emily Trim, who was one of the witnesses there, was next to Liesel Field, who was interviewed by John Mack in some of these interviews. They were, and these beings came close to the kids, and they were not human. And they were not,

the kids initially thought they were animals of some type, because they, I mean, these are kids, between seven years old, 12 years old. And so they were all looking at, this. And there was these two beings that were apparently dressed in black jumpsuits standing, obviously, and big black eyes. And they started communicating to the kids. The kids started seeing images in their minds. And some of those images were very terrible images, very negative, very, very traumatic images. Like what? People dying, no air, people suffocating images of the earth and

and war and things that we, I guess something that had to do with what's happening or what could happen. And they all saw an explosion at the end. And it was like a big giant fiery explosion. This is not something that kids are used to, especially in rural Zimbabwe in 1994. So it became a big story at that time.

Obviously, and these beings communicate, and then they disappeared. They just vanished. And the school reset, the bell rang, everything disappeared. Kids ran in the school screaming, you know, what they saw. Teachers didn't believe them. Nobody believed them. They thought, you know, got to go back to class.

Let's go back, you know, got to go study. And the kids are like, they're freaking out. So they eventually got to a point where they realized the kids saw something because they were freaking out. I mean, there's no way you can calm 60-some kids that saw this. They're not going to just go back to class and learn about math. We got to talk about this. and so they brought in Cynthia Hind,

which was a Mufon investigator in South Africa at the time. She came in with a guy called Gunter, who brought a, to check radiation. Geiger County, thank you. And so they went on the school grounds, and I have the pictures from Gunther, and you could see where it landed. I've seen those, you can see it.

You could see it where it landed. There was no radiation detected on the, ground. But something crushed all that. Something crushed all that, right? And the kids were visibly affected. And it got to Tim Leach, which was a BBC reporter who ran it as a big story on the BBC. He was covering some of the atrocities that were happening in Botswana and Zaire at the time.

There was a lot of bad things happening in Africa. And he said, this is a big deal. Like these kids, he met with them. He goes, they're not lying. Everybody's saying the same thing. And it got to the ears of Professor John Mack from Harvard. He was in London at that moment and decided to take a plane and fly down and interviewed a lot of the kids and determined that they're saying something that they saw.

And we can see all those interviews. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they're compelling. I mean, you could see in the eyes of those kids, they saw something. Now, you know, a lot of stuff related to that. I became very close friends with Emily Trim. She was there and had seen this and it affected her a lot.

Her brother. You dedicated your movie to her. Yes, I did. Did you and Emily work together? I spent 10 years with Emily. People thought I was dating Emily. I never dated Emily. She became a very close friend of mine

and had a lot of trouble dealing with the trauma of what had happened at Ariel and something else that had happened to her when she was 21. again, related to all this. By the way, for anybody listening, this was not the end of that with these kids or the people that were there. There was things that happened after,

and that's not been reported. So there have been a lot of people who've had things that happened to them after, which were very traumatizing. Does this connect to your work with David Jacobs? Yes, absolutely. Can you explain who he is and what? David Jacobs, so this brought me to really a look

into these contact events or these encounters, if you want to call them. And I started reading more about it. I already knew a lot. I had read a lot of the books in the past Bud Hopkins and all that, but I want to kind of refresh. It's kind of like a different section of the research. You have to really separate yourself from that and start looking into the encounter stuff.

And I asked, I remember reading a couple of David's books, and I called Don Don Derry. was a friend and I said I'd really like to talk to him and he says I can arrange that I'm I'm close with David so he arranged that and we had some exchanges and he eventually invited me to go out to his house and I spent you know some lot of lots of time with David and that relationship became very important to me because he saw how incredibly interested I was in learning this but learning this on a professional level, not just a superficial booklet. You could read a lot about this stuff, but it's also written in a way, so it's digestible for people.

Who is David, and what did he do? David, my bad. David Jacobs was one of the most respected researchers in abductions in the world. He was one of the reasons why John Mack also got involved in this. David was a psychologist? Was a psychologist? No, actually, no. No, he's a PhD in history. He's a history PhD, but he's not a psychologist. But known for regression therapy?

No, for regress. Absolutely. He started, when I met him, he had already been involved in this for 40 years. So he had a lot of experience in it. And when I went to his house, for anybody who knows the abduction experts back then, and it was like Bud Hopkins was one of those. David had all of But Hopkins' work in his basement. All of it.

Wow. And so... That's a lot of work. Oh, yeah. And I went down... He took me downstairs in his basement. I'll never forget. And it was filled almost to where the windows were.

Because it... Like, I'm talking stacks of files, filing cabinets, and cassette tapes, you know, the cassette tapes. I mean thousands of them. And he said, this is all of them. of Bud's work. I hope that's digitized somewhere. So I was myself and Randall Nickerson knew that that was at David's house. Randall actually helped move it there because he was close to Bud Hopkins. And David said, I don't know what I'm going to be doing with this, but I need this to never be lost, you know? And I said, let me know what, how I can help. He eventually found a way to get

to the, I believe it's the Philadelphia Museum or some educational museum has all this work in their possession. Somebody could go there and I could find out exactly, I can't remember the name now, but you could go there and access all. It's all stored in the archives there, so it's not lost, right? Which is good, very, very good. And I spent two years being trained by David Jacobs. trained. Yeah. We would do, at the time, there was no Zoom. There was Skype, right?

So I had, I can't, I don't remember how many. We would do Skype calls because he was in Philadelphia, Montreal. And we would do them at night, 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. So we'd do three hours every night or every second night. And basically telling me the ins and outs of this phenomenon, what to watch out for, what could be perceived. does evidence and it's not, what could potentially be not a real memory. So there was a lot of stuff that I learned in that time, including some very, it's not

confidential. It's kind of like, it's like when you work in something like this, you have to be careful how you word it to the person that you're either regressive. interrogating, speaking to whatever. You have to be very cautious what words you use. This is a criticism of John McQuark. It was kind of leading. Exactly.

You have to be very careful about that because you could exactly lead them or build some alternate memory. It's a very tricky thing. So you have to be very cautious also with regressive hypnosis because you could have lies in that. Sure. Okay. Or if not intentional, unintentional. You could create a memory. You could create a memory. Absolutely. So there was a lot of that, you know, I'm absorbing this obviously because I'm very interested in the topic. And so that was in a very rich period of my life because I was learning a lot of this, reading a lot of this. And every time, and I was also, while that is happening, I'm very close to Emily.

And she had not want to open up about her experiences and had decided to open up to me, but in small steps. And I respected that, you know, because there was so much emotion attached to it. And David's training to me was always very important because I, he always said, in fact, he's, he's unfortunately not that well with his health. So he doesn't, he's not, he's not active anymore. but he would always say whenever you meet somebody who's had an experience and wants to be regressed,

convince them not to do it. Very interesting. He always said that. He says always do your best to convince them not to do it, even if they beg you to do it. Pay attention to how they are, make sure that they're not already experiencing something traumatic in their life. Like, are they having marital issues?

Are they having health issues? do they have problems with their job or whatever because this will under percent bring up some bad things whether they like it or not and it could further damage whatever is already happening in their life they don't need this and we don't need this we don't need any would say don't be selfish in wanting to know what their trauma is this is another tight funnel guy absolutely you have to be careful about that what did um You learn from Emily that you don't have to betray confidence. I know she's passed recently.

Emily was extremely, like we were, I mean, I can't even begin to tell you how extremely close we had become. She was so generous with information over the years. She really was. And she was suffering a lot. I mean, the amount of people that wanted stuff from Emily was really, it was really a lot. and she would always close up and not want to to share. I had to, that whole part of my life was, I think, I'll say, I felt like I graduated, okay? So all those years with all the investigations and all that, I felt like that was like,

I had become like really top of my game. I was like in last year of high school and the oldest guy in the school. and now I graduated and I'm going to college and I'm the youngest guy and I'm learning something completely new. Really? Yeah, that's how it felt.

Because when I went into the communication, contact and all that, that was not just, it's not nuts and bolts, it becomes emotional. And emotional is a difficult thing. You don't, you're no longer, I'm no longer talking to you

about something that is logical I'm talking about an emotional response and that is not the same. No, and it's trauma emotion. It's trauma emotion, exactly. So I became very conscious of the fact that I don't want to spark any trauma on somebody

because I'm inquisitive. You know what I mean? Or I'm interested or I'm curious about this. So I have to learn all over again to be like, because if I can ask you, you know, is the flying saucer that had tripods, they did not have tripod?

Okay, you know, that have legs. legs, no legs, whatever. That's like nuts and bolts, but when you were crying, were you crying because you were scared or were you crying because you were traumatized? It's a completely different interaction, right? So you have to be very, and again, I always say, I used to say, I can't believe I'm the guy doing this because I shouldn't be. There should be absolute experts in psychology that are not sitting down with it. these people, assessing them, or let's say trying to judge to see what's their problem.

Right. See what I mean? That's a good distinction. Yeah. It's like, let's not look at them as there's a problem. Let's find out what happened. Right. There's a huge difference there.

And that's kind of where I used to be like, man, do we really have a lot to learn here as people? Because here we want to know, what is this, what is this, what is all this? What's it all about? Well, we don't know. We know that something is happening and these people are experiencing things. And this was where I was at, where I'm seeing them reliving trauma, a lot of crying, a lot of emotional stuff.

And we have to look at that no longer as investigators, but also as humans. As a human being, basically it became a thing where it's like, If I do believe this is really happening to you, because I could, I guess you have to have a certain degree of credibility as well in the story. So yes, I have to kind of assess it to go, you're not a nut job because there are some, by the way. But once you've passed that, I want to be, I want to be a safe place for you when I'm talking to you. I don't want you to think that I'm trying to get information from you and I'll walk away with it. You give it to me, good. You don't give it to me, even the better. I'm here to help. I'm here to make you know that you're not

alone in this, that clearly something seems like it happened to you. I feel bad that you have to suffer from all this because it's a lot of, what people, what I learned a lot about this is they would open up to me and would say, my husband doesn't even know this happened to me. Really? Yeah. And I'm like, are you kidding? Yeah, I can't talk to this about my husband. I know one person, I'm not going to name her name.

Her husband divorced her because she ended up being in a documentary about what happened. Oh, my goodness. And he divorced her. That's terrible. So, because it's impossible. And I can assure you she was there.

There's other witnesses that were there with her. So if she was making it up, they all had to make it up. Everybody was making it up, right? So it's a really different thing. And I was very fortunate to have worked with David's got all that information. David would also provide me information that was never to be divulged publicly about small things that could happen in an event that would indicate that this is a true event. things that they do.

For example? Well, I can't get into that because he would say, if you mention these things to the witnesses or to the people that have gone through the encounters, other people will hear you say that

and they'll say they had that happen to them. They will. You see what I mean? So you have to keep a certain, a few things. One of the things, the only thing I can tell you is there is one thing in particular, which stuck with me,

there's one thing they do to us, not all of them, but in a large percentage of the cases, that they do to us on our back. Did that happen to Emily and the kids at Ariel? No. No, not at all. That was a separate...

The kids at Ariel, the event, is really a unique event. And I consider it to be possibly one of the most important events because they landed and communicated with so many children. And all those witnesses, I can say this now, some of those kids that committed suicide after it happened. I can believe that.

Okay? And all those people lived with that for many, many years, and I talked to them now, and they're all sticking to that story. if it didn't happen, because a lot of people say they just imagined it, it's mass hallucination or whatever, they're all in their 30s, in their 40s. They would keep doing this. You're telling me all these people are all in on it still today. Would you be in on it? No. Would you still keep a lie that you kept with your friends when you were nine?

That's ridiculous. So there's something that happened. These creatures, whoever they were, they were creatures, they were real. I asked them, a lot of people say, do you think they were AI robots or something? You know, people are talking about. So I keep referring to them as the kids, but they're not kids anymore. So I'll say kids just because they were kids when it happened. But I asked the kids, I said, do you think they were robots?

No, not at all. They were real living, you know. But don't you think it's possible? And all of them were like, no, no, no, no. These were, they were, they were alive. Because of the communication, they could feel it. The way they felt, the way they moved, that they said these were 100% living creatures.

Now, were they just really, really good robots? I doubt it, but I can't say, I don't know the, I don't know, I can't confirm that. But something happened on. that day and something was communicated to these kids and they all saw it. Do you think it was intentional that landing or because some of the stories are it was a repair or? I don't know and I and I heard of course I heard that you know and some people saying the craft was not flat on the ground. It was on an angle like that. Look it's very possible

that it was not intentional. Very, very possible. But we don't know. okay yeah yeah it's possible i'll say that because even believe it or not even they even the kids go yeah i don't know they'll say we don't know what what it was we were just playing and it's like and that happened you know so it was uh there was a there was one of them i won't say who she really struck me very very um uh cat i know she's catholic or christian whatever it is but uh she says i don't believe in aliens. I don't believe in flying saucers, but I can't explain what I saw that day. I mean, that says a lot.

Some of the videos, I'm recalling them now, are the kind of heartbreaking. Before we go to a quick break and get to S4, let's just finish off with Emily. Let's give her a send-off. What would she want people to know? Wow. She was an incredibly wonderful person, very sensitive, went through a lot when she was a kid because of it,

put it behind, like buried it, like with her brother who buried it. Her brother was there. Recently had a really nice time to get to know him more. She was, she would always say to me, I'll say what she said to me at the very end, but I'll say something she said to me a couple of years before she passed.

She says, we're all lying to each other. She says, the world is lying to each other, Luigi. She would say that to me all the time. Everything is a lie. It's not that we're doing this purposely, but we're constantly lying to each other because the whole goal for all of us is to become something in this society,

so we're lying to each other, and we're all on the wrong path. She kept repeating that to me. We're always lying to each other. That struck a big chord to me, because she would say it with such like, with tears in her eyes, she says, I don't know how to explain it,

but we're not being honest with one another. And it's like humans are not saying the truth to each other. We're always, there's always a guard, we're always keeping certain things, and we're always saying it in a way where we, it's like we're always in an interview. You know what I mean? And we're not saying everything,

but it's true. We do lie to each other. I guess we're not lying like, hey, I have like three, three yachts. I'm not, that's not the type of lies. I think she's talking about. No, there's a social performance. Exactly.

So she wants us to what? I think she felt that we were losing, um, we were losing, uh, track of ourselves. She said, she had a,

um, a butterfly. So this is important. When this happened, after it happened, she had multiple other encounters. She wasn't the only one, by the way. And those were things that really affected her.

For some reason, there was a communication with these beings that communicated something to her about butterflies. She called it the butterfly story. And she called it, where did all the butterflies go? And she says, it was something they told her, and she wrote it down. She goes, I wrote it as I was receiving it. And she said it. In 2015, we were in Arizona, and she said it on stage. I have a video of it, and it was the most touching thing.

Everybody in the crowd was crying. The whole crowd was crying. It was, she called it, where did all the butterflies go? And she said, the butterflies represented them, them. And that they said, and that she was representing us in the conversation with the And she said, why are you leaving? Why are you all going away? And they said, we're going away because you're doing things that don't allow us to be there with you. You're not taking care of your environment. You're not taking care of your world, essentially. But don't go away. She kept saying

don't go away. But they said, we can come back. But it's up to you to make that happen. So she would say this, she said this in a beautiful monologue that she did on stage. It was very nice. And she said, it was a, it was, it felt like they're trying to communicate to us to be better, but not, not technologically better, just better as people. And when I last saw her, the very last time that I saw her, she was sitting in front of me. She didn't look like her anymore. She had changed.

But her eyes were her eyes. And she said, they came down from the sky and landed in front of us and talked to us so that we could tell the world and nobody cared. And she died a few days later.

I'll never forget that. I hope you don't. That's an important message. Nobody cared. Yeah, because, you know, I felt I could see it from her, you know, and I say, and I question, why did this happen to her, you know? Because she was such a good person. She was important.

Yeah, such a good person. And I consider that, I consider that to be one of the most important events. And we should listen. We should just listen. to it. I mean, forget judging this. You know, everybody goes in with this judgmental. We shouldn't look at it like that. It's wrong. It happened. Why? Did it happen? You know, somebody could say the thing wasn't operating properly. It landed. They communicated. Well, even if it was that. Still the message is still a message. The message is important.

It's important. And let's not also forget the message that they had in them to convey to us. That's another thing. Because now the message is being conveyed to these kids. And they showed us what happens if we don't listen. Exactly. And then it also shows how judgmental we are if they open up about it. All right, we'll come back in a minute, give me a chance to use a tissue, and we'll talk about S4.

Yeah, great. So it all started with a model. Yes, it did. It all started with a potential collector quality die cast model. You were just trying to make a product? I just wanted to make a product because I'm a merchandiser. And I thought, let me make a really good flange saucer for everybody to have at home. And I got Bob's attention.

and he was impressed. He basically asked me, I finally got to talk to Bob Lazar and, you know. How did you get through to Bob? That's not easy to do. No, that was actually, it was really a shot in the dark.

I thought, I could do this without Bob Lazar. I spent months researching the whole story and as much of information I could find online about the sport model, Flying Saucer. And there was a lot of information that was really unclear. I couldn't understand which part was real, which part some telephone game over the years people changing stuff so i said let me let me try

reaching out to him and at least see if he's willing to guide me in correcting just a few things and put his stamp of approval and that would make it so much more interesting and uh i reached out to united nuclear scientific which is his company i sent um i didn't send an email i called i just gold called him and uh zach answered the phone and i said i'm i'm so-and-so i'm in a guy from Montreal. You guys don't know who I am. Here's my website. Here's some of the stuff I've done.

I'm a merchandiser. I promise I'm not some crackpot. I know what I'm doing. I want to make this cool, quality flying saucer. The only guy I know who's been in one who can give me some details about it, as opposed to somebody who's been in one and frightened.

You know, because, you know, so I said, I wonder, you know, I don't expect this to go any further than this, but I gave it a shot. So he says, look,

I don't know if Bob's going to, talk to you, I'll ask him. And so I got a call back two days later, and Zach goes, yeah, he'll talk to you. Wow. How did that feel? I was like, okay. I mean, for me, it was just like, I remember I was at the office. I saw United Nuclear on my phone.

I said, oh, shit, it's calling, you know, answer the phone. They got, they transferred to me. And I'm like, during those two days, you're like, he's, there's no way. He's not going to call me. I was like, there's no way he's going to talk to me. I'm like, who am I? You know, plus I'm in Montreal. I'm far away.

Anyway, he said, yeah, he'll talk to you. He saw some of the stuff. Like, you'll talk to you. I said, oh, okay. So I said, when do you want to do that? He said, tomorrow, gave me a time. For me, it was 6 p.m. For him, it was 3 p.m.

Because of the three hour difference. And got on the phone, Bob Lazare. For me, it was surreal. And I'm like, Bob, first of all, thank you for, you know, being on the call. It's a pleasure to talk to you. And he was very nice. And so immediately he says, what exactly do you want to do? Explain.

I want to do a die-cast model. I've made a lot of stuff in my life, so I know what I'm doing. And immediately he says, okay, well, if you would do it, how would you do it? What did he mean by that? He says,

he told me this at a later time. He says, you have no idea how many people have reached out to me with all these projects. And when I would ask them, how would you do it? I could tell they'd never done that before.

Right. You know? Right. They're just going to bullshit him. Exactly. Right. So he says, He said, how would you do it?

You know? And I said, well, how do you want me to explain it to you? Well, what kind of materials would you? So I started, I gave him a run. I mean, I spent those 15 years back to Port in China. I learned how to do stuff. So I gave him a real technical answer. And he was like, oh.

And I said, and as far as the wave guide is concerned, inside the craft, I knew something about the wave guide. I said, I would make that in two different materials for the model. One of them would be the metal. The other one would be a silicone because we could mimic the, the movement. He goes, okay, okay, stop. He goes, I could see you know what you're doing.

Come and see me. Wow. And I bought the plane ticket. I'll never forget. He emailed me that night and he says, these are the dates I'd be available because I'm working. Oh yeah, I have other stuff to do. I said, great.

I bought a plane ticket, sent it to him. He says, perfect. I flew out to Oregon. And as I'm at, I think I was in Denver. I was like a stop before getting to Oregon. He wrote me, says, tonight, he goes, come straight to my house. tonight we're going to have dinner with my wife and stuff and I said oh my god wow it's great so

first time I met Bob Lazar was at his house and we had dinner and it was Zach brought me there did you know that you were dining with a unicorn I was like I couldn't believe it I could not believe this is this that happened and I'll tell you a funny story uh I gave him a gift I brought him a gift so back in the in the late 80s when I would go to Italy all the time in my father's village there was a lot of if you dug into the ground, you can actually find old World War II shells, like artillery shells that were still, they used ones, but they're underground. They could find them. So I collected many of them over the years, and I keep them in a nice display in my house. But those are rare. Those are really rare. They're anti-aircraft American shells that were used against the Germans. So I took a shell.

I said, let me bring in one of these, because this is something from my family, you know, from where I'm from and I get to the airport and in the security they stop it. I was going to ask you how that went. And it's an empty shell. And I read about it and you're a lot to do it. But you're not. You're a lot to do it on paper, but apparently you're not allowed to do it at the airport. So they said, no, you can't go. You're going to have to, we're going to have to throw it out. I said, no, no, no, no, you're not throwing that out. So they said, well, you're going to have to go and give it to somebody and come back through

security. So I went back out. I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but I bought a a cheap backpack that was at a stand. I put it in there. I took some stuff out of my carry-on, put it in the backpack, and I went and checked the backpack. And I said, I have another check bag. I checked it, it passed,

it got to work. Nice. So I gave him the shell. And anyway, we started talking, and he said, do you really want to do this? You really think people are going to want to buy a flying saucer?

I said, if it's done right, absolutely. And he says, wow, you didn't even hesitate. I said, no, I'm not hesitating. Are you kidding? Nobody's ever done that. Where were you going to sell these? Like direct to consumer? I think it was going to go direct to consumer. It's still going to happen, by the way. It hasn't happened yet, but we're not talking about like some plastic model here. We're talking about like some really high quality stuff. If you think about it, there's a lot of, there's a lot of die cast collectors out there or a lot of people collect models. There is not one. good quality, commercial grade, not artistic.

Artists could do one of one. I'm talking commercial industrial made flying saucer. It doesn't exist. No, it looks so sexy in here. Right? So I'm like, I want a real flying saucer that somebody's going to want to put in their house and that's a cool piece, right? So that's what I want to do.

And so that was the whole beginning of the project. And so it's going to happen. It's just not, that's, the way worked out didn't happen that way. But that was the beginning of the whole way I approached Bob Lazar. He was, he's been absolutely incredible in the initial stages. I sat with him, spent two days with him. We went over everything. And he was extremely generous with his time.

He corrected all. There was so many corrections. I would say, this is what. what's on this website and he said, that's not it. He goes, it's like this. And I had brought with me, there was a model made in 1994 by the Testers Corporation. It's a plastic model made in the USA.

It's available on eBay right now for about two, three hundred bucks. It's a really cheap model, but it's slightly accurate. Okay. It's pretty accurate. There's a lot of things that are not, but it's accurate. So I had brought one with me. And he goes, oh, yeah, I remember this, you know, John Andrews and came and see me. But immediately he saw some things in the model.

He goes, actually, that's not accurate and that's not accurate. And the seat shape is not accurate. And I said, well, that's the whole point. Let's make it accurate. Right. Let's get it right. Let's get it right. And so that turned out to be the biggest project I've ever done in my life.

So what were you doing? Just iterating with Bob with 3D designs? We went, yeah. So I came back to Montreal. I had a lot of information. that I had taken down. I went back to Montreal. I sat down with my team and I said, all right, let's start doing this. And we have a, we built, we made a 200 page book out of this. Of all the info, because we were going to build it. So I needed to have like a, everything.

I said it has to be perfect. So. What's in the book? Oh, I could show it to you. Show it. That should be another product. Yeah, yeah, I could show. Oh, absolutely. It will be. I'd love to have that. It will be. Just notes and sketches and a million things. And it addresses the parts, the components, how they looked inside and how we would have to build it if we had to create. Because, by the way, because he had been inside, my reasoning at the very beginning was if I have a 13 to 14 inch diameter craft and you want to see the inside, well, you're going to have to take it apart. Right.

Well, that was part of how do I have consumer? take it apart. How is it going to come together easily and not, you know, so there was a lot that went into that to create something that was beautiful as a product and what kind of materials we would use and, and so on. And that was happening in a 3D software. So I started building the craft, obviously. And in the software, we started building it in real size. We weren't building it in a 13-inch or 14 inch diameter. It was 52.9 feet in diameter. Sure.

It was real size. And that was the beginning of a complete shift in my life where the way I was seeing it on screen. We started off in Blender with just a craft. Blender and open source 3D program. Absolutely.

And then we saw, said, why don't we make the box look like the interior of the hangar? You know, if there's going to be this flying saucer and we're going to put it in a collector box, make it look like the hanger. This is a great product idea. Right? So I'm like, let's make that happen. And so we had to build a hangar.

And that was start, and then another part of my team started doing that in Unreal Engine 4 at the time. Oh, 4.7. Yeah, exactly. And so that, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the file was the craft, the Unreal Engine file was the hangar, and then we started expanding on the hangar. Bob was like, okay, well, I'll tell you how that is, so it looks real, and we started asking a billion questions, and as we got further and further into this, we would constantly, all of us

at the team, in my team, we have questions for Bob. So we had a booklet, and we would write, oh, that's a question for Bob, go write it. So we handwrite, you got to ask him, blah, blah, blah, lot, we need to know this. So I had a hundred and seventy-eight questions for Bob. So I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to do this on Zoom. I called him. I said, Bob, why don't I just come out there? We knocked this out of the park in a day, worst case, two days. You can answer everything. And in person, it's always better in person because you can have something in your hands and go like, you know. What are the questions like on that list? Oh, I could send it to you. No, I mean, for people listening, just examples. For instance, okay, so inside the craft,

there's an archway superstructure. It's a, there's, inside, it looks like archways, right? Well, the thickness of the archway. Oh, that's pretty specific. Yeah. So how thick you think the archway is? And I remember, the reason why I bring it up is, I said, that archway superstructure, you know,

how thick do you think it was? I remember him saying it's about two inches, and what's really important, he said, it was hollow. He had not mentioned that. No, it was hollow. It was hollow. And I found that to be extremely important.

Yeah. Because I thought, oh, I wrote that down. I go, it was hollow. He goes, oh, yeah, it was hollow. I touched it on the exit. Because when he was, when he crawled into the craft, the archway is all around. So you have them right next to you or the, let's say the surface of them. So, I mean, like I would have done.

I would have, you know. Right. Of course we're going to do that. Of course. You're sending me inside a flying saucer? I might lick the thing. Right. Because I want to understand what am I touching here.

So basically, he said they were hollow. I found that to be very interesting. Another one was, where was the flag? Was that on the reverse flag? Was that on the right or on the left? Because we had determined there was a sticker on the craft that was a flag. An American flag on the craft. On the craft.

And I remember him saying right or left. Right or left. Where are we putting it? So it was on the left. Okay. There was a million questions. There was a whole bunch of questions like that. And you'd be surprised.

I mean, you could go through all the details and still have, you know, a million questions. Which, by the way, those were only the first 178 questions. There's a lot more that followed that. There's a lot of OCD in your personality. Yes, yes. You're a bit of maniac. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.

Absolutely. And that's actually what Bob said. I literally, I was putting everything away. And he goes, you know, I have never made. anybody so detailed like you are. And I looked at him and I said, well, I hope that's a compliment because I'm trying to make sure, I'm trying to make sure I don't miss anything here. He goes, no, no, no.

He goes, it's very good. He goes, I'm just impressed with how detailed you are. And I said, I'm going to build, if this is true, I said, this is true. I'm about to build an ET object. I got to make sure I do it right. otherwise what am I doing? So got to do it right. And so that was my, that's the way I look at things.

And so that got us into, you know, really perfecting it, molding the seats into it or what we thought were the seats, the amplifiers, even the cut out amplifier. He said it had been cut with a plasma cutter. I couldn't remember the details. I had to ask him. And he says it looked jagged. It looked like a, they didn't do that. They didn't do a clean job, which also I find amazing, because I'm like, who the hell does that? You know, but that's how it was.

And the interior of the emitters. In fact, the emitters were something that I was very upset with myself for not having understood. He kept explaining them to me, and I completely messed up the way I wrote down all my notes. So I built something completely wrong. And when he saw them, he goes, what are those? I said the emitters, he goes, that's completely wrong. I said, really? And he goes, yeah, what the hell?

So we had to rebuild the emitters because that was not, I, that was my fault. Those are the big tube, the three tubes? Yeah, the big, yeah, the, what did you build instead? They're hollow on the inside. Yes. I didn't think they were hollow. Oh, I thought they were full. Okay.

Okay. I thought they were like a solid copper with these plates on them. And he's like, what is that? I said, he goes, no. because they're just plates on the on the perimeter on the surface but it's hollow inside

and that there's you don't see it in the film but imagine a four two two foot diameter four foot trash can there's a pipe it's the one of the wave guides that goes into it because it allows it to swivel and all that

but what I found really interesting is and he had even mentioned it in the past and I remember he said that wave guide goes into the emitter and protrudes about, I don't know, about a foot into the emitter. And I remember thinking, why would it do that? And it makes perfect sense. Why?

Because when the, I don't have anything that's cylindrical here, but imagine a cylinder is suspended by a pipe. Yep. On the ceiling of the bottom level. And the cylinder can switch. at a 90 degree. Yep. The top of the craft,

the top of the ceiling, and this is here, and there's like a pipe holding it, as soon as it swivels, the pipe's not long enough for it to swivel at 90 degrees. It's going to hit the top. Right.

It needs to extend down and swivel. Ah. And that piece inside is designed for it to do that. That's an important detail. It's an important detail. But he never said it did that. He said, that's what I saw.

Right, you had to work that out. We had to make that, and that made sense to us. And we went, oh, my God, look at that. It makes sense, because you need that extra to do that movement. Did he pre-plan? You know, some people like, he's still fraud. Did he pre-plan that? Is that like some, is that an Easter egg you put in there for us to figure out?

Like, I never felt like that in any times I spoke to him. This was really something that caught my attention to. I was like, yeah, that, that's not, that's not him making that up. He saw that and that's how I built it. I think that even supports the story more because you're doing the structural engineering to connect those dots. Exactly. And then he sees that and goes, yeah, that's how it worked.

Yeah, because it would do that. It makes perfect sense. Of course. You know, so I was like, okay, that's another, that's something that I thought was really interesting. Anyway, and so built, got to a point where the craft was built and now the entrance to the craft, the hatch. You see it in the film, right?

You see there's a, it lips to the bottom. Yes. It's like a note, right? Okay. That was a feat. Why? Because we didn't understand it. Like, we weren't getting it perfectly for a while in the geometry of the craft.

And it took, it took a few tries until he said, that's it. So this is a three level craft. There's a bottom level. And that's the eminters. There's the main level, yeah. Three emitters underneath. Correct. Then the three chairs.

And then there's an upper level that he never saw. That he never saw. He never saw. Could he speculate? What do you think was up there? Well, he speculates, and it's in the film, that he says, that's the part where you see these black, what look like. He says they look like portholes.

Right. But they're not. But they're not. They're clearly not. Something for navigation. Yeah. He says they were Vanta Black. He called them Vanta Black.

I don't know if you're familiar with Vanta Black. Vanta Black is the blackest of blacks. Oh, yes, I've heard of that. It's so black, it's actually weird to look at. Exactly. He says they looked like Vanta black. They didn't look like they were a surface. They looked like they were an infinity hole.

Okay? So we have to make that. In Blender, you can because you just remove all specularity. You know, you remove all that, and you could do that. But it looks fake. If you do that in Blender, it looks fake, which is one of the things that I'm kind of not happy with with my craft in Blender is, yeah,

it's not reflecting anything, but I'm not appreciating it as much as I'm crazy when it comes to detail. I'm like, I don't think the real thing looks like that, but that's as far as we could do it. And he said, he thinks it's perfect,

and I'm like, it could be better. But anyway, so, and in regards to that, he says, they believed that it had something to do with the navigation or some type of sensor that lets the craft

or whoever in the craft know where it is. So it's basically reading, and there's six of them, and it's reading where it's at. That's what he thought it was. They talked about it with Barry, his lab partner, but he says, I don't know. I never accessed it.

I don't know what was up there. So he's very, very cautious to not speculate too much. That's what I love about Bob and his story, and I'm asked all the time, who I think of the most credible whistleblower is and it's always Bob Lazar because he's not afraid to say, I don't know, I didn't work on that.

Absolutely. I don't know. And a lot of times he would say, I don't know. Sure. There's so many questions we had, and he goes, I don't know. Even the metal, he's like, you know, that's material science. Absolutely. It felt or look like this, but I don't know.

We had a lot of, we spoke about the metal a lot, and it had a lot of properties that were clearly giving us the impression that it's metal. But he said, again, Luigi, he says, it could have been ceramic. He goes, I don't know, but it felt metallic to me. Now, the part where the archway superstructure is hollow, that's a tough one to do in ceramic, because ceramic is a very strong material.

You don't feel hollow on ceramic. That's right. So that to me gives me more belief that it's metal or a metal type of material. But it's also intelligent, in my opinion. The craft? The material. The material is intelligent. Because we didn't, we're going to be doing, so in our film, we had to abbreviate things

quite a bit to make it digestible for the audience. There's a lot of information that never made it in the film. And we are going to be releasing probably an hour and 20 or an hour, 30 minute documentary, mini doc of ours, only on the craft. That's going to be successful as well because there are a lot of us that want to know about was it layered? Were there wave guides?

We have a lot of data that didn't make it in the film on the sport model and one of my things I want to do is make that dock. It's going to be a, we're going to call it a mini dog if you will, but it's just about the craft.

And it allows us also creatively to show it however we want and not from the perspective of the story of Bablazar. So if I have to talk to you about the material of the craft, I'm now creative, I have liberty to show it to you however I want, outside, indoors, outdoors. So that gives me the opportunity to really explain what it is that we worked on for that long. But in the center of the floor, first of all, the reactor sits in the middle of the floor of the craft.

There's an indentation. It fits perfectly there. There's this waveguide pipe that is three inches in diameter. It's not very thick. And it tapers, you know, kind of opens up like that because it applies perfectly on top of the reactor. It's so low-tech-looking. It really is.

But it looks like a trumpet. Like, exactly. Exactly. It looks like a trumpet and you pull it down. Now what's really interesting, and this is part of the stuff that we talked about with Bob, is when they, because it goes up and down. Okay, you can remove it.

off the reactor and you can apply it on the reactor. And the reactor is a power source. So this thing is basically channeling whatever the power source throughout the craft, which I believe the craft being a gigantic cavity hollow superstructure and it

propagates this power gravity field or whatever other field it is within the craft and creates this bubble if you want to attract a lot of witnesses. In fact, Bob is in agreement with me.

I was talking to him the other day while we were driving the car. I said, I am convinced at 100% that the archway superstructure was also down in the lower level. It's not something he saw, but he says, I don't remember it because it was so dark. Right.

I didn't see it. He goes, I wasn't paying attention to it because I was trying to figure out what those emitters were. He says, but I must agree. It makes no sense that the craft superstructure is only on one side and not connected like this

to the other side on the bottom. That's my personal opinion. I built the thing. It always feels to me like it had to have had it on the bottom. You're probably right. It's just logical sense to me. But he says, I agree.

I just don't remember seeing it. And his job was to what, try to replicate the propulsion technology of those emitters? Replicated with Earth materials and the first directive was to, excuse me, to replicate the propulsion system with Earth materials,

and the second directive was to disable it. How to disable it from a distance. Right. That's important too. That's important. So they had to, those are primary directives. And essentially, you know, when you think about this, so this material, as they pulls up the wave guide,

it's not telescopic like a normal antenna that we do. like this and it goes in it, you know, the base part is thicker and the, you know, it gets thinner. It goes inside itself. It's not like that at all. He goes, you pull it up and it doesn't make any sound. It's not like you hear it's completely silent.

You pull it up and it just becomes shorter. It blends into the ceiling. It doesn't go through the roof or anything. No, no, no. There's no hole where you see it go in. It's just blended into the ceiling of the main floor. So, you know,

the bottom is tapered so it goes on top of the reactor. The upper, I remember asking him, I go, do I have, do I leave a hole? He goes, no, no, no, it was blended. It was all one piece. No seam or anything? So he goes, we would pull it up and we didn't know where it was going. That can't work. That's exactly why that's an important feature.

Yeah. Because now, and I wanted to put it in the film, but I thought, if I do that, I'm going to need a very long segment here to explain this. And it's a kind of a, for the layman, for people watching this to digest, that's a lot of technical stuff that I would have to get into. I'll cover that in the sport model version of the doc because I want to cover it. But clearly, what is that? What's happening there? He says, even when you pull it down, where's the material coming from? Because it is getting longer, but I can't tell where it's coming from. So he says, and I asked him, if you were to bring it down and not apply it on the reactor and push, you know, torque, he said, oh, it wouldn't move.

It wouldn't move. Now, think about that. You know, if we have something that is only three inches in diameter and hollow, and I pull that down, I don't know, four feet, and I can't get it to move, that's something really strong. Even if it's titanium, you're going to get a little bit of... You're going to get something, then move. I find that really interesting. Yes. You know what I mean?

So those are little technical aspects of things that I found to be very interesting. I have to build them. Obviously, I have to build them. You're not feeling the physics of that. But it's something that I took into consideration as I was building this thing. The only thing I don't have is the upper level. I mean, the outside I have, but I don't have the interior. So I don't know.

I don't know how that works. Yeah. So you're at Bob's going through all your 187 questions. Yeah. And then what happens from there? Oh, you're designing the box, the hanger? So we got, so we finally get the box, the hanger. I actually, just for fun, what I had, this was a, it was just an idea I had on a weekend.

I said, okay, here's the box. I go, people are going to want to have more. I go, what I could not, what I could include in the box is a, a cardboard foldout that is the hallway of the base. I could, I could just do that for people who are a little bit more fanatical. I could do this. me make the hallway. So that that that talk about scope creep. Oh my goodness. Right. Wow. So I essentially said, all right, Bob, how about we build the whole thing? The whole S4. The whole S4. Because that one day I just

said, okay, that's it. Why don't we do it in, in, it was going to start an unreal engine. And he says, are you sure you want to do that? He goes, what are you going to do with it? I said, I don't know yet. I don't know yet. But I know I want to do it. And he goes, that's going to cost. I know, I know. I said, I know. I knew, but I had to do it because I'm like, you know, historically, or let's say in this timeline of our lives, Bob Lazare is getting older. And he's already in process of helping us design the interior of the hangar. And like, if I don't do this now, when is this even going to happen? It would never happen. It would never have happened. So I said, and Bob said, well, sure you want to do that? I said, yeah, if I invest, because my money, I said, I'll do it. If you, but,

but on one condition, you, you stand, give it a stamp of approval. You have to help. He says, oh, I'll do it. He goes, you guys are doing a great job. I'll do it. And I said, great, we're doing it. So I called everybody, had a meeting. I said, okay, guys, we're building the whole thing. And so it was like, they were like, what? You know, and I said, yeah, yeah. So, went back to see Bob, got a lot more information. I went in my, my co-director Christopher Mato got so much information. He's really talented. He's very talented.

He's not just talented. I think he's like a Michael Jordan of this. This guy is very good. Did he help you with the shot selection of photography? Oh, yeah. I mean, he and I were... Your film is gorgeous. Thank you.

I appreciate that. And a lot of that is also due to Chris Mato. I mean, Christopher Matoe is, without a doubt, he and I were almost attached to the hip for about a year. in front of a computer, we both gained weight at the same time, staring at screens, because that's exactly what it was. And, you know, running to computers, building computers to render and all that stuff. I mean, that was insane, sleeping at the studio, making sure it wouldn't crash if it crashed,

you know, getting it back to, you know, where did it crash, what frame, what messed up, why did it do that, you know. I feel this pain. Yeah, you understand. Yeah. So, anyway, long story is we started, we got to the Unreal part, but then we immediately dropped Unreal Engine because... Unreal for folks is a 3D

game engine. Game Engine. Absolutely. Look, it's great for video games. It's not made for what we were doing. No. It's just not made for what we were doing. No. It just, it cannot do what it's being advertised. Certainly not at 4.7.

No, even at 5. Even at 5. And with Nanite, couldn't do it. Even at 5. Oh, even with Nannite was giving us so many errors. Yeah. I know. So many errors that we were going bananas going, okay, this is just a waste of...

I spent a lot of... I lost a lot of money because of Unreal Engine. Look, they're great. They do great video games. Good for them, but Blender was definitely the way to go. And when we transferred everything over to Blender, things, first of all, started looking better much faster. Quality went through the roof.

and Blender was evolving. Yes, it always is. Yeah, and so there's a lot of stuff we did. Our version of Blender at our studio is, it's like when you meet a guy who has like a Toyota Supra, but he has a one version, he has one of one. He modified it his way. Our blender is fully modified to do what we wanted to do.

It must be as a 3D artist myself. There are some shots where I went, How did he build a set for, oh, this is VFX. This looks very real. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And for you, so because you understand this, it's not just what it looks like.

It's what you can render. That's right. Right? Yeah. Because you can make anything look beautiful, but now render it. Right, that's true. Make that happen. All the different lights you needed.

Okay, yeah. There's a lot of computing power. and so there's a lot of under the hood technical stuff that has to happen in order for the render first of all to happen and not crash and secondly in a timely manner where you can actually get your render out because you have a hundred other renders to you know and you have X amount of computers do you need this to happen

you can't just go like oh yeah it'll take four days well hold on for how many seconds you know what I mean so So the technical aspect of what was accomplished internally for us to make it happen, that will forever be what, I'll never forget that, ever. I mean, we were not sleeping to make that happen. I believe it, while we're talking technical, there was something that came up about, which light that wouldn't bounce.

So you spent a year trying to replicate the way light behaved on the crash. Inside the craft. Right. But when you are designing the asset, you create the material. Absolutely. Specularity. Right. Normal map.

Everything. Absolutely. So did you, I mean, why was the light not working if you can control the material? It was working. Oh, it's, the light is working. Yeah. It's not, it wasn't a defect, nothing was defective. It was the way the interior of the craft is made.

So now you're, you're in the main thing. floor and always remember it's very low gets you know it's a disc right so it's got this you can only stand kind of in the in a small section in the middle and then after that you got to start crouching down and walking or crawling whatever if if you're in the actual space which we went with VR eventually but which is very cool and I can't wait for the world to see that but the way the materials made we used this unpalipel let to to make it fast, you know, fast to explain,

unpolished stainless steel, there's a little bit of grit to it, a little bit of dust to it, because it gives it, you know, that real look and all that, you put any light in there. Because, you know,

you could put any lights. Yeah. A blender. You could have a billion versions of lights. Okay, yeah, we could put any lights. It's beautiful. It's great. All right.

Okay, it's lit. Okay, but that's not how it was, you know, because it's, you're inside the craft. That's not how they were lighting it. You could light it. You could put fake,

lights in there and you light the thing. I can make it super beautifully lit, but that's not how he saw it. And Bob's saying that because there were a couple of industrial lights in there. He said the only thing they had in there was a big industrial tripod lights, two of them, one behind the amplifier that's behind the middle seat, and one on the left of the amplifier to the left of the middle seat. Both of them are there. Their rod is low because they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, It's not a high ceiling. Right. So they're lower.

They're not like pushed up. You could, there's a telescoping thing. And there, the, the light heads are pointed up. And there's four halogen lights. When you can replicate that right down to the bulb. 100%. But the light wasn't matching. So you, you get that down to the bulb,

to the luminosity, all, all that stuff, right? Mm-hmm. Turn them on. And it gives you, you match them. You go online, you look at these halogen lights. You match the setting in blender. You could do that. Sure.

So put them on. Turn them on. They're on. They're 100%. Both of them are on. So you have eight lights. Yep. Right?

Can't see anything. It's like, you could see it reflecting brightly where it's at. Right. But it's not transmitting light. It's not lighting the room. And I'm like, you know, you have to consider 52.5 feet. It's kind of big anyway. But you would think.

It should be thrown light everywhere. It doesn't. And Bob says no, it was dark, darker than this. he kept saying it was very dark in there and I and I kept saying okay but what could she say well is he always repeated

it's very dark in there it's higher to see and I'm like but there's two in industrial life like how is this not bright so when they're on I'll never forget

we had our camera in there we used black magic 6K cameras to film most of the time so we brought the camera in put the settings on how we would put our settings and I would tell Chris, are we in the camera? Yeah.

Turn on lights. They're on. I can't see shit. And he's like, I know. The lights are on. I'm like, okay, well, there's no way. So the amount of times that we were like, there's got to be a toggle that we didn't, like, we're missing something. Something's not happening here. So we would turn off those lights, bring in other lights. Okay, we could see everything. Okay, that's weird.

We would, what we did, and this is actually, we did this for a while. I never explained this. I can explain it because you can appreciate it. We took out the halogen and we put other lights in there. Like you could put box lights. So we took four little box lights, placed them there, pointed them up, blasted them.

Even those weren't powerful enough. And I'm like, what the hell is up with this thing? But if you take the lights, go in a different angle and blast them, well, it'll light the scene. So there are shots in our film where we did obviously create cinematic lighting shots. You don't know it. We know it, but it wasn't the natural light.

But you cannot see properly in that craft if you only have the eight halogen lights pointed up, which is exactly what Bob Lazar said. It was very dark in there. And if we think of that, and we're going to think of, here's a man who's going to try to let's say let's say let's assume he's lying

okay he's making it up okay he's making this up fine he's telling us that there are two industrial tripods with four bright halogen lights in there why would his brain

as a liar think that's not enough think about that logically it's a weird detail it's it's two strange that he knew that it would be dark in there because you have to build the thing to don't. Right. That's it.

You have to just have it. Is that material just drinking in the light? It really absurd. I will gladly send you the craft. Okay? Oh, absolutely. If you want it. Of course.

Just don't share it, but I'll send you the file. Play around with it. I'll do it yourself. Because when you said that, I'm like, no, man, that's not how materials work. Yeah. But play around with it yourself. I believe it. Go in there, turn them on, and you'll be like, oh, shit, it's dark in there.

And you're going to go like, bring a camera in there, try to film something. We're going to do it. You know what I mean? So now in the story, you're starting to build all of S-4. Is it still a product at this point? Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So we're at a certain point, we were like, it would be so cool if Bob narrated this or Bob narrated that.

What if Bob narrated, you know? How do you marry a product? Well, that's, again, I didn't know where this was going. I kind of, I literally thought, I'm, I am spending a fortune here building this thing. I don't really know what I'm going to do with it. What about your team? Are they like, they were just excited, they were just excited that I was giving them a green light, let's do it. They were just like, this is cool.

Like, because I was just giving them full, go with the best we could do. And they're like, okay. Right. And eventually Bob Lazar started seeing some stuff. He would always want it to see final scenes. I never showed him anything that was really, but I would give him snippets. And he was like, oh, my God.

Why did you withhold that? That's an important detail. Because I wanted it to be finished. In some cases, I wanted it, I wanted certain things to be complete for him to see them. There was a lot of times that they weren't complete. Like, for instance, the ceiling of the hallway was not complete. and it would it would not look good.

I'm kind of like, I was, I was like, I would show him things that were, I needed him to correct me on, but I knew that the ceiling was not complete properly. And I'm like, I don't want to show him with this crappy ceiling. I got to finish that. I had to put pipes in there. So there were certain things that I, he was like, show me. I'm like, not yet. I want to show it to you when it's done.

When things were getting, let's say 85% done, that's when I started showing. Did you go back to your, David Jacobs training it all and think, were you worried about implanting details? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because this is a great way to do it. Absolutely. What was really important, though, is that he corrected himself

in a couple of things when we brought him in initially in the hangar and in the lab. The only places where he said, oh yeah, there was that was in the hangar in the lab. He was there a lot. In the lab, he had forgotten to mention that there was a door

that led right into the hangar. Ah, okay. It was never mentioned. So I put a cabinet there. And he goes, there was no cabinet there. And I said, well, okay, I'll just move the cabinet. And he goes, no, there was a door there. And I said, what do you mean there was a door there?

He goes, isn't that going right into the hangar? And I said, yeah. He goes, yeah, there was a door there. That's really interesting. Because when you're setting up the 3D environment, it starts to fall into place. Exactly, exactly. So even the desks at a certain point, he and Barry have two desks pointed at each other.

I put them in the wrong place. First thing he did is the desks are, no, the desks were over there. He immediately pointed, the desks were not there, they were over there. Like he pointed it right away. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then made more sense.

Sure. Okay. He goes, yeah. And the electrical panel was on the left there. Oh, okay. You know, immediately went like, boom. I put, at a certain point, I had a sink in there. He looked at it.

goes, okay, you could leave that one. I said, why? He goes, it wasn't exactly like that, but it's fine. You know, like, kind of, and I'm like, but what did it look like? Right. You know, he's like, no, some stuff he didn't even want to tell me because he knew I'm insane. So he's like, you're going to waste another three weeks on just a sink. It's not important. You know what I mean? So I'm like, okay. So we basically got him to correct us on that door. And in the hangar, the large adjacent doors that separate the hangars have, normal size doors in them. Because when the big adjacent doors are closed,

you can go in the adjacent hangar just through a normal door in the big door. And there was a time, I mentioned this recently, Bob Lazar was on stage with Georgia Nap in Arizona, and Bob had drawn on a whiteboard, these little doors, and people were saying,

he's full of shit, there's no way he could have seen in the other hangers without those doors. And I remember going like, They're kind of right. There's no way to have seen all the way down just through these little doors. True. They were right.

That was a good point. I didn't have an answer for it. So I'm like, I wonder what that's all about. Anyway, as soon as he saw the door, he goes, no, there's little doors in those doors. We built the door. He goes, but there's a door there. There's a door in the door. And we validated it.

We actually also, by the way, had consultants that helped us that actually work. at Area 51 in hangers. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So there were people that consulted with us and said, oh, you got it. That's how it was.

They even showed us how the X beams were in the hangars, and they said, that's exactly it. Were these special projects guys? Only one. One was not that type of stuff, but aerospace engineers that worked out there. Because they did make planes there too. Absolutely.

Yeah. And they confirmed, yeah, that's what they, they helped us with the floor grill where the water goes in. We have a lot of experts that, because Bob, oh, by the way, when it came to Bob, where was the grill on the ground? He goes, I don't, I don't know. He goes, I wasn't looking for that. Right. I mean, that makes sense too. Sure.

So I needed a consultant to help me, you know, because I asked him, I said, do you think the beams were like that? He goes, probably. He goes, I wasn't paying attention to the beams. absolutely. Now S4 is built inside of a hill. Are you building the landscape as well? Oh, we built the whole landscape. Absolutely.

We have so... What a project. Oh, my God. It's a huge project. Is this a film yet, or you're still just building stuff? Oh, no. We were a film... We were half a film, not even half a film.

We were a quarter of a film when we completed the Papu Slend. lake geometry, but we hadn't done the Papus Mountain Range. But you decided we're going to make a movie? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had decided at that point, well, that's when I spoke to Bob Lazzar, and I said, Bob, how about we turned this into a documentary about what happened to you at S4? What would make you think of that? Because when we would bring the cameras inside the scene, it was just too perfect.

It looked too good. And I thought, my God, I think I could bring people back here. You know, it started to really dawn on me like, this is really good. And I'm like, but it wouldn't be of any use to people if I explain it. That's, I kept saying, you know, who's going to want to listen to me? Oh, you know, I made it like this. Nobody cares about me. I said, if Bob explains this story, I think that's going to go a long way.

In fact, in fact, I said, this is no longer, in my opinion, created for entertainment. this is almost created as a historical document. Because if I have the guy who saw it and he's correcting me and we have a visual historical document, that's actually interesting because it's a place we can't go to. What happens if one day Bob Lazard gets debunked?

What does that mean for your historical document? I find that to be, many times we said that to each other, what if all this turns out not to be true? And we're looking at each other and we go, it'll be one hell of us. sci-fi thing though you know because we we basically laugh and and say i don't think it's it's going to get the bunk but if if ever it does which i doubt it's still a cool project that was built

from somebody's memory or story and made sense 100% right um i don't think it is i really don't but and i bob says it all the time he goes you know what he goes whether people believe my story or not your film is so beautiful. He says that to me. He says, it's so beautiful to watch that it's a fun thing to look at. It really is. So I said,

at least I've accomplished that part of the task. I clearly don't want it to just be that. I wanted to, you know, people to get a... I wanted, part of my hope was if there are so many people out there who really don't believe this, story and have a lot of arguments, which I understand. I read all of them. I read all of them.

In fact, after my film came out, boy, that I read a lot of them. Oh, I bet. Okay. But I will say a lot of them, forget the accusations of Bob Lazare having married a woman that before he even went to Los Alamos. They're talking about stuff that happened to him a decade before he even worked at Los Alamos. It's like, okay, whatever. You should look into my life. I was, a real nut job when I was younger. So it's like, same. Okay, so, but if we're going to look at this story, we need to have, it's like a historical piece of what happened to him.

Okay. This is a, this is an opportunity to look at the data and say, instead of attacking points that are wrong, that your starting point is wrong. you're actually your starting point is wrong start this is at least accurate you don't believe it fine but let's start from here start here totally agree

a big shout out to Veronica who's my sister who has been a god send because she handled everything while we were making this film so she was she's like the invisible force behind us that's handling everything makes sure everybody's paid and things are happening okay and when Gene sent us the map and we found all that,

she just quietly said, no, there's got to be more to this. There's no way they hit a road and that there's no other evidence to it. So she found that map. And that is, in my opinion, the 1941 map is undeniably evidence that there's something there. Yes. It's from the government. It's not from a picture. It's from the government.

So it's there. It's there. She also found the Ed Teller video as well. Vanessa did. Oh, Vanessa did. Yeah, Vanessa did. So Vanessa on my team, she was handling the, you know, vetting the archival footage that we use. Is it, are we allowed?

Is it, you know, copyrighted? There's a lot of stuff that we never even put in the film that we spent months and, you know, vetting and all that stuff. And there was suddenly she contacted the University of California. California. I can't remember which one. Anyway, and they had the Et Teller tape from 1982 when he was at Los Alamos. And she contacted them saying, is that the actual tape? And they contacted sent a picture of the tape and a picture of a file folder that was

on the same shelf, on this metal shelf in the archives. And they said, it's a eumatic tape and it has not played since that day. it's been sitting there since 1982, June 28th, July 28th, I think, or June 20th, I can't remember now, 1982. We're like, you're kidding. And we said, are we allowed to, they said, we could digitize it for you, there's a cost to doing that, it's a couple hundred dollars. I immediately said, send them the money. Yes. Like, I go, go. Yes. And so she says, okay, and she goes, if you pay an extra $100, they'll do it faster. Pay an extra $100. You know, like, just go. And, and, and, and, and, And they, and I said, ask them if we could use it, right?

And they came back and they said, good news, it's public domain, you're allowed to use it, you know, just credit us. And I said, absolutely. I couldn't wait to see it. So they digitized it, sent it to us, and they digitized pictures of the file folder. And it's Edward Teller's personal notes and personal agenda of those days. And I have all that. And it's like him going to Los Alamos National Labs. Then he was flying to somewhere else to have another conference.

And it's at Teller. I watched the whole thing. I mean, it's a lot about the weapons and bombs and all that, but it's extremely interesting. I bet. It's available. It's going to be available on our We Are Not Alone channel. We're on Allent.com channel.

And there's the whole thing is going to be put out there because it's cool. It's just. And in that crowd, they never had a camera. pointed at the crowd. The camera was from behind. So you're only seeing a portion of the crowd and Ed Teller on the, there's actually two cameras. There wasn't a third camera, pointed the other way, because if it would have been, we would have seen Bob Lazar. Yeah, which is a really cool thing. For sure he was there. You mentioned something, almost in passing. I don't think I didn't even followed up on it. You received legal threats during this process?

From who? From my bank? from your bank. Oh yeah. I had a lot of problems over time. Things that were very weird. I'm not going to get in all of them because they're going to... I'm still...

We put a lot of our money into it. I put a lot of money in seven figures to make this thing happen. It's why anyone banks in Canada is beyond me. I can tell you that it's a very toxic and very... I would almost say abusive system. in Canada.

And the way that we were attacked by our bank was extremely aggressive and unwarranted. How did they... They made it look like they had no idea we were making a film on Bablazar

when they were absolutely aware that we were making a film on Bablazar because in Quebec, in the province of Quebec where we live and where our studio is, if you produce a VR experience, experience, which we did simultaneously produce, because the

environment is to explore with a VR anyway. And you're making that publicly available. It's going to be available later this year. Absolutely. It's going to be a different product and you're going to be able to go and visit S4. If you do that, you are eligible to receive tax credits

for the work that you're, the people that you have and all that, which is a great perk in Quebec, by the way. And that's why a lot of video game companies are based in Quebec. Right. Because of the fiscal perks. So I didn't even know that.

And I thought, this is great, you know? But I had to get accredited first by the government. And in order for me to get accredited, I need to get audited. Oh. So I got audited and I passed. Okay. And I was like, this is great. I had nothing to hide.

And they said, you've got it. You have your attestation, as they say, which is like a document that says you are now accredited by the government to receive if you have. If you're eligible for credits, then you can get them. The bank helped, so the bank got involved. They were so impressed with what we were doing that they brought a committee to the office. The VP of the bank was there. I got goosebumps company in Montreal doing this, Area 51.

This is incredible. Whatever, we're going to help you out. So they helped us through and got us a consulting firm to help us facilitate the credits, which was great. I said, I don't have time to do it anyway. and the bank was going to fund the credits. Because when you get approved and the government says, okay, we'll send you $250,000, $300,000, whatever it is,

they don't send you right away. It's 18 months. Sure. Right. So it's not like, oh, great, I'm going to get the money right away. The bank knows this, and it's an opportunity for them. Because the banks say, we'll front you the money and we'll charge you interest. And when you get it, it's guaranteed money to us.

You pay us the money. So I thought, all right, I'll go ahead. Why not? I mean, it's a lot of money. I was eligible for a couple hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, go ahead, send it to me. The last day that we had, it was constant communication. I mean, this was, the correspondence with these guys was constant.

All of a sudden, they sent me up. An email, you got to send this last document. I did. Sent it, done, beautiful. And they kept saying, come on, Luigi, hurry up. We want to release the funds. I said, great. Send them the thing.

Radio silence. Now, I've never had a problem in my life with banks. This all of a sudden happens. They call and they say, I'm not getting any answers. So all of a sudden I go, let me call. Put the girl on speaker. So everybody, by the way, our studio is all open. We don't have separate rooms, so everybody hears everything.

So I decided it's been years. I'm like, our business is completely transparent. This is how it works. You'll know what's going on here. I make more money than you. I tell everybody. That's just the way it is. Anyway, so the call,

she answers the call and she's stuttering. I can't help you anymore. I'm sorry, bye. This is someone you had a relationship with? Oh, we were on the phone almost every day. So anyway, long story short, I got a call that they were going to allocate two new people to our account, right?

They allocate two new people to our account. We're going to ask you and your mom, to come on a Zoom call. My mother is owner of the company with me. It's family business. So she has absolutely no idea what we do. She's just mom, okay? She's been with me and my sister.

Like, you know, she's helped out all the time. But if my sister and I ask her to come in the office and help out, she's going to go like, what do you want me to do, file? I could file stuff for you. But other than that, you know. I know a lot of Italian businesses with a silent partner. I get it. I get it.

So it's mom. So I said, okay, my mom, I'm fine. We get on this call, and it's two attorneys for the bank. Oh, no. And they say, tell us about your project with these UFOs. And I said, well, you guys know about it. What do you want me to tell you? Well, tell us about that.

And I said, you guys know about it? What do you want me to tell? It's a long story. We've been talking to you guys for over a year. What part do you want me to tell you? That's a pretty broad question. I thought we were getting into specifics. So we had utilized a portion of our line of credit, okay, which was not even that much,

to keep operating because we're about to launch the film. Because you're using all your own money. All our own money. And it's depleting. Of course. Right. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, by the way, to those who call me a grifter, that's a really bad way of grifting.

Right. It's going broke. Yeah, it's going broke. That's a bad grifting move, okay? So I was in a position. I said, you guys know we're using. I said we've been using the line of credit because of this. But they knew, they kept telling us we want to give you more.

That's why with these credits from the government, we can give you more. I thought, great. She says, well, I'm letting you know that I'm not going to name the bank, but they were royal pain in the asses. Okay? I got it. that that bank said, we are no longer supporting you, and unless you pay us back,

what you always were going to shut you down. So line of credit done? Oh, yeah. Pay it back. You know, so, and then I got a paper, a court order from them. We had to get deposed in court.

A whole thing about, about what is this UFO project, kept calling it the project, which I found to be very suspicious, because I'm like, I have other clients. It was very specific to this. I deal with the Montreal Transit Commission.

I have other clients. Government clients. Well, one of them is a government client. Absolutely. It's government. And your business is 30 years old? Mike, no, we're 50, close 15. I've been 25 years, but this company is close 15.

Right. I've been here. Okay. And I mean, I'm completely clean. I got audited. right so they say side note by the way when this happened

this is a little side note I'm gonna get back to what happened on the court document I call my lawyer and I'm like dude I'm in trouble here I don't know what the fuck is going on and he I kid you not he said what did you do and I said what do you mean what did I do

I didn't do anything what you're talking about he says Luigi you know you're Italian oh come on I swear to you I swear to you he says you know did you send money to somebody. I said, dude, if you say that again, we don't have a relationship. No. That is such a, I said, that really sucks that you said that, because why? Because I'm Italian, I'm, I'm, what, I'm part of some criminal activity or something? I mean, my family has a history, but I don't know,

but that's not, that's not, we're not, we're not criminals. No, it's like, what are you talking about? So I actually had to, he says, because they usually would never do that unless you did something really bad. And I said, I didn't. So that was a big deal. Yes. finally he says all right fine send me whatever they sent me a quarter at in the court request it's in French I'll show it to you later one of the main things they wanted from us is all communications between motivo my company and Bob Lazar no no yeah and that's when he that's when he said all right now I'm starting to suspect now he goes I find this suspicious he says because they did not request anything related to your other clients.

You're the projects that are going on with Motivo. You guys have other big, we make money with a lot of other people. Why only Bob Lazar? Now, to all the naysayers out there, this actually happened, okay? Why would this happen? And the reality is, I didn't want to bring it up. I'm bringing it up lightly, but the reality, The reality is they were part of it for the longest time,

really getting all my information because they want to help me. You, oh, do you think that maybe that was just... I don't know, but they certainly made a good show out of it. Yeah. Because they sent a committee to my office. My team freaked out, by the way. Everybody was like, what the fuck is going on? There's nothing controversial about your film.

At all. Bob has been telling his story for 30, 40 years. So I'm like, why is this an attack... Now, you know, this caused problems even internally with my team at a certain point because of like, what did you do? Obviously, I'm like looking at them, guys, I swear, I didn't do anything wrong because they're like, why are we getting attack like this? I said, I do not know. It was until everybody saw,

they all went like, yeah, this is really weird. Because obviously, they're worried about their jobs or whatever, because I have to pay everybody. I mean, I have a responsibility, a lot of the reasons why, you know, this was a stress thing for me is I care about the people that work with course. I really do. And I, and it hurts me that I hurt them. I put my sister, my sister works with me. She was like, what's going on? You know, like she's got a little girl. She's my little niece and everybody's relying on us being successful. So that was a huge thing that I was feeling because I'm like, why is this happening? I never had that happen to me in my life. Did you give them the correspondence?

let's just say that I made sure that they, I told, I made sure to tell them that yes, the walls in the lab were off white and not white. The tiles were probably purchased in a commercial store and not made in some foreign land, that the equipment looked new and not old, things that were completely useless. Because what the hell, what the hell are you talking about? That's all Bob and I talked about is building S-4. So what do you want? What is that going to change in the whole? So I told them, yeah, here's what we talked about. I sent them our email correspondence together because 99% of my correspondence with Bob Lazar was, hey, Bob, look at this. Was it on the right or on the left? did we put these on the right or on the left? Is it big enough? Is it too small? What colors are the doors wood? Are they metal? What else do you want to talk about?

Did they give you a line of credit back? Did they lay off? They did not. We lost her line of credit. You cooperated? They blocked her. So I've sent a lot of money to my lawyer. So we owe them some money.

I sent a lot of money to my lawyer. He has it in trust. They know that our film was going to be launching soon. This was a huge risk for me financially, because if I didn't make it, I really wouldn't have made it. The fact that the film began to set. really well was such a relief for everybody on my team and me. The first thing one of my best friends Julie said to me, she says, you saved your house. Did you? I did. I mean, day one,

4.9 out of five on Amazon, it's a hit. And it's going to be huge. Did this save your business? Yes. We were number one most sold film in America on Amazon. for four days. We ended up being number two for two days, number three for two days, and are still now number four in America. That's a big thing to say. When did you find out it was a hit?

It was Amazon who contacted my distributor, and they contacted me. They said, you guys are killing it. You beat Avatar and the housemaid's numbers. It's a better film than those. Who's the first one you called? To tell? Yeah.

to this is a this is a triumph you know who i called for i was with bob when i found out you were i was with him and he he was just like so relieved he was he's been stressed for me for a long time he's like oh my god i can't i hope you make your money back i hope you make your money back that's all he cared about by the way he kept i don't want anything him and joy we're like we just want you to be okay and i called uh i called my sister and She made me cry because she said, you fucking did it. You know, like she goes, I'm so glad. She goes, I'm so glad I stayed there with you throughout the whole thing.

When you said you were concerned that you put your sister at risk, what did you mean by that? Financially. It's her job. You know what I mean? I didn't want to be responsible for that. I remember, I remember I was like, why is this happening to us? Like, this is not supposed to happen? and remember that we had money, but we had to operate.

We had to get to the finish line. Right. So I could have paid the bank back, but I wouldn't have been able to finish what we were doing. And that was a big stress because I'm like, we're already in deep seven figures and a lot. So I'm like, we got to finish this. So for a lot of people who were also wondering why we were delayed,

there was some financial times that there were times that the finances were delaying us because we were getting attacked and I had to protect ourselves to protect the company I had people on I have to say Christopher Mato

and Veronica are fucking warriors Christopher looked at me and he says fuck them he goes we're going to finish this and he would sleep at the studio to make sure this would happen Veronica said

I got, don't worry about me. Don't worry about the company. Don't worry about anything. Don't even look at your emails. Finish the film. And that's what we did. How do you keep them motivated and comfortable for years and years with all this going on?

Well, it was only the last year. So it was only a year the problems were, became big. They became real. But it's still a big risk this whole time. Gigantic risk. It's probably the biggest risk I've ever taken. and it's affected me.

I went through a lot during making the film. I had personal problems with the past relationship of mine. I had to treat a precancerous thing on my face. Apparently I was getting face skin cancer. I lost my friend Emily. And then this thing with the bank happened. So there was a lot of things that happened. and Bob Lazar got had five heart attacks in the process of us making this film yeah i i saw that on

jesse's show and i was and you know he said he said i am i am worried about all this because of all these things happening to you it was worrying him that just have something to do with me because he didn't want this to happen so i was like i don't want you to get sick over this you know but it was possibly the most incredibly stressful time of my life because i wanted to make sure that i remember saying this i said to bob i went to see this one time we were in the we were still in in we were in trouble and i looked at him and he says what are you going to do i said imagine a thruster in the cockpit of an airplane I said, I swear to God, I will break the fucking plane, but I'm not going to stop.

I'm going to bend this fucking thing until it breaks, but I'm not stopping. And he goes, that's dangerous. I said, well, I'm too much into this right now. So I'm not going to stop. So you were surprised when the attacks came? I was surprised at the, I was very surprised with the bank. That was the one that surprised me the most, because it was, impossible for us to have predicted that could happen. It was like constant communication with them

like everything was fine. It's not like I was doing something behind the bank's bank. They were part of our daily process to get the tax credits. It was like, how is this even possible? So there's no way that was normal. No, I don't think tax credits are worth giving up privacy like this. You understand? So I was like, what the fuck is this? You guys, I remember even getting upset at the lawyer going like, but I have a year's correspondence with you guys. She says that doesn't matter anymore. What matters is right now.

That's what she said to me. Do you think they wanted to shut you down or just get information? No, they told me they wanted to shut us down. They sent a bailiff with a 10-day order that if we didn't pay it back, they were taking over the company. Oh, no. I had to get lawyer. I had to lawyer up.

and the amount of fucking problems that caused because we didn't know what was going on. So the reality is we did everything we were supposed to do were 100% we got, again, I can't repeat it enough, we got audited, okay? And I'm not the Italian guy running some, I don't know what, I'm not, anybody could check

that. You're not a cash business up there. I'm not a cat. We can't even accept cash anymore. It's like, Canada, cash is useless now. But it's like everything is, is clear. It's transparent. I mean, we are 100%. We were, we had to be so transparent to the, not only the auditors, but to the, consulting firm getting us the credits from the government. They had to know what we were up to. So we're like, we're completely transparent here. You're not doing the next film in Canada, are you? I am not doing it this, the way I am never using bank's money again. Here, here.

Okay? Ever. Good for you. Anybody listening, working for a bank, fuck you. I'm not taking your money. Yeah. Sorry, I had to say that. No, no, no, I don't mind.

I apologize. Yeah. So, you know, going through your history, you've got this drone imaging company, merchandise. Oh, yeah. All this other stuff. You found a lot of stuff on me. I did. What's the unifying theory with how you build things?

You're a builder. Yeah. You make stuff. I went from, I still love to make tangible things. Okay. So now that I'm in the intangible world, because making a film, making this, for a guy who spent my whole career making tangible products and my biggest feet, my biggest project in my life is an intangible product at 51 years old, that was a challenge.

Okay. And to learn as I went, hire the right people, but regardless of hiring the right people, I need to know what's going on. Like, I need to understand what we're doing. So even Christopher Mattel goes, dude, you learn Blender fucking really fast. You know what I mean? And like, it's not easy. No, and here I am working on making intangible environments and tangible assets filming, which is an intangible thing because it's film, right? It taught, I learned so much in the last four and a half years doing this that I'm very grateful that I've gotten to where I've gotten with all this. I'm so grateful to the people that I've worked with.

I can't thank them enough. amazing people who all stood by me and my team. I'm super grateful to Bob Lazar for letting me do this, and everybody along George Knapp, Gene Huff, Mario Santa Cruz, Joy Lizarre, all amazing people. I will continue making tangible things, but I will certainly make more intangible things. I hope you do.

I want to shift gears for just a couple of minutes before we close it out. Did I read correctly that you, You were with Bob during one of the congressional hearings? Yeah, I was with him on the first congressional hearing. David Grush? Dave Grush. What did he think? Was it Dave Grush?

Yeah, it was Dave Grush. Yeah, yeah, it was Dave Grush. Wait a second. I'm trying to remember. Yes, yes, yes, it was. Absolutely. Bob was actually invited. So this is crazy.

I said it a while ago. We had him planned to come to Montreal because we had a green screen set up. We had a lot of green screen to do. Okay, so he knew that. I said, we have to interview you and I absolutely need you on the green screen. I can't do it without you being in Montreal.

And this was in 2023, and he said, okay, fine, I'm going to come and left his wife at home to take care of all the animals and all that, came to Montreal, and we were set up and gets to my house. I have a big place downstairs. I have like a, it's almost like a private apartment. So whenever I have guests,

they stay at my house and they have their own kitchen, everything. And I said, I said, thank you so much for coming, you know? I said, you know, that's going to be the congressional hearing. And he goes, I know, I was invited to go. It's supposed to go. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, I already plan to come here with you to see you.

So he skipped it? I said, you didn't do the congressional hearing so you can come and film with us. He goes, I already, I already booked that with you. I wasn't going to change that. I'm like, oh my God. I'm kind of glad he did because I don't think he belongs with those guys. He doesn't want to.

He doesn't belong. I don't trust that narrative, Luigi. Me neither, by the way. So I'm standing there with him in my, where I have this like counter at the kitchen and we're talking, having coffee or something. And I said, I can't believe you did that. He goes, Luigi, I'm, I want to be part of this. this is this is my story this is what you're bringing my story to life i thought oh my god bob

this is so cool so we went to the office the next day and he's everybody's talking and that was the day of because the day before was the day before the day of we're filming on a green screen and we take a break and everybody's you know got makeup on him and he's because trying to make us look better you know we got those things under our you know those patches that you stick under your eyes to not have eyebags. I know him very well. Yeah, yeah. Bob and I were both wearing them. Took a picture with that. It was funny. And I said to him, I said, did you hear what they just

said? Congressional hearing? And he goes, no. So we start going on the phone. And Bob goes, well, I told you so. And it was, I was like, I found that weird. I go, it's crazy that they're saying these things. He goes, I find that crazy too. He says, I said, what do you think? He goes, I don't want to, I don't want, he literally said, I don't want to be part of that. He goes, I don't, I don't, I'm nothing to do with that. He goes, if they want to say, they, if they want to keep looking for this, they can.

He says, but I don't believe we're going to get disclosure. I don't believe any of this stuff is going to come out. I totally agree. When I'm asked about it, I say I don't believe anyone from the intelligence community, from Navy intelligence, any of that. I'm waiting for a technician to show up, low level, with a piece of metal. with something. And as I'm saying that, I realize I'm describing what Bob did in 1989. Absolutely. So disclosure is not coming. I do not think disclosure like we would want it is coming. I think we have to be very ready. We have to prepare ourselves for something that will appease a lot of people, but it will not tell us the real truth. I say it all the time. I use a very grotesque analogy. If you, you let me.

Please. I always say if a guy is cheating on his wife and he has two mistresses and she starts to suspect that he's cheating on her and he calls his best friend and says, look, man, I'm going to tell her that you and I were at the strip club yesterday and you got to stick by the story with me. And then she goes, where were you last night? And he says, all right, fine, I smelled of that because there was a stripper dancing. and I admit it, you know, and my friend's going to vouch for me, and she'll go, she might not divorce him because it's just a strip club,

but she doesn't know the real truth. That's a pretty good analogy. That's a limited hangout. Exactly. Just enough. So I don't believe we're going to get the whole truth. I think we're going to get something just to appease, and I think it might not even be that good.

Yeah, I forget, maybe it was Jesse's show where you were saying, just send a helicopter over there, and kick the dirt. That's what I say. I'm saying, Luigi, they're not going to do that. They're not going to go kick the dirt. You know, I was even talking to Jeremy Corbell

and he's saying, you know, Congressman Burleson is apparently going to be going to all these sites. I said, look, okay, I want to see it. You know, I, what are they going to show them? You know. They're going to show them empty hangers.

They're not going to go out to Papoose. They're not going to go out there. All you got to do is go there. I think it's a, I think it's a, I don't even think it's a five-minute helicopter ride to Papu's like from Groom. I think it's like 12 miles or something. It's right there. You just have to look down and go.

I mean, if there's some, look, if there's something there, which I believe there is something there, because we could see it in the picture and we have a map that shows there's something there. I kind of believed it until you showed me that map and blew my mind. There's, there is obviously something there. There's something there. It's undenade. Right. It's 100%.

Show me the mine then. Thank you. If it's just a mine, let's go in the mine. And if you put hangar doors in the side of the hill, how would have a guy who apparently everybody's saying he's not a physicist, he's not a scientist, which by the way, George Knapp keeps saying, he was the perfect guy for the job because he's easily discredible.

They could have discredited him so easy. How would he know that? We didn't know that. the media didn't know that the military a lot of people in DOD didn't know that because you have to have access to go there in 1989 there was no Google there was no Yahoo there was no Netscape

let's go back old stuff right there's none of that stuff we had to just analog we have to analog our way into life and learn things with analog stuff how could this dude know that at the most secret location in the world at a specific

hill, there's so many hills out there, that there would be hangar doors hidden in that hill. And it's all made up. There's no way. There's no way. Come on. On Joe's show, he said, after 35 years, maybe I'm the one who made the mistake. Yeah. What was the context of that?

And what would that mean? Excuse me. He makes a good point. And I'll say this, a big. I've had a lot of conversations about this, not only with Bob, but obviously Bob and I have talked about this a lot. And I will say this. We have to be realistic about what we're talking about here and not overly excited about the topic as a whole. If, in fact, the United States, or any government, whatever government, whatever military branch, intelligence branch, or contract,

or whatever we want to call them, whoever's in charge. If we are talking about objects that are technologically superior than our objects made by another civilization and that these objects are functional, they work, we don't know how, how, but we know they're working. And these objects allow for energy to almost, I don't want to call it free energy, I don't like that word because it's possibly really wrong, but harness something from space and time that could be utilized as power,

and that they could turn out to be vehicles to travel with transportation. That would completely obliterate the entire economic structure of human society. in an instant because if it comes out the first thing is who's going to tell us let's let's assume it's going to be a person in in an authoritative position a president a prime minister whoever that person who's going to say it is going to be talking about a topic that is so fundamentally attached to our origins because now you are

talking about another civilization, it should almost in tandem be released with a religious connotation. Because if you don't have the church or the mosque or whatever associated to this type of disclosure, you're going to have a lot of people very confused in the world because a lot of human civilization has a connection to some religion. Tim Burchard said, if we release this, a lot of people are going to be upset. So if that happens with a religious connection, now you have to have who's going to say it to us and which of the religious groups are going to be allowed to say it, because if they do, that means they validated it.

Right? It has to be validated. It's not just a politician who comes up there and says, this is what I want you to say with me on camera. No, if the Pope says it, that's different. That's different. So now there has to be validation. Validation implicates more people.

More people implicates security parameters that could be breached. We have adversarial countries that are not always in line with the way we function. Clearly, something like this is happening, their spy networks are on alert. We could say whatever we want about how beautiful America and strong it is, but we should never underestimate adversarial countries. No. They have a lot of money, a lot of resources. If suddenly we trip just for a second, and they could take advantage of that, they will.

They will. Okay? So now you have all these people moving around, just to tell us, by the way. All this? This is just to just tell us. Just to tell us. There's nothing happening. It's just to let us know.

I agree with everything you're saying. Now, once the process has been vetted and you have the Pope, let's say the Pope is involved, it could be another, it could be the Pope and a rabbi or whatever, all together. Let's all sing kumbaya and say it together. There's too many people involved. When they announce it to us, we as people have been so jaded with wrong information from the government and religious groups that we're not going to immediately accept it. Nope, we're going to need validation.

How is that going to happen? Who will do that? How are we going to see validation be accepted by the people? And without some uprising of some sort. So you are now going to have to implicate other steps with other people to validate this so that people go, okay, this is real. Regardless of the fact that you say, we deserve to know that we are not alone in the universe, but you could keep the technology secret. Well, how do you do that?

You can't do that. You can't do that. It's a catch-22. You have to show me for me to believe you, and you also have to show me that I believe that it can be contained because I don't want China to have it. No, and they'd love to have it.

You see where I'm going? Sure. Now, again, look at this is a mess. It's already a mess. In addition to that, there are people probably within the programs. I do believe they're still operating somehow. Those people, they're not, they're not, they don't come from a, they're not cloned.

These are people that were born, they have families, they probably still have parents, they have kids, wives, houses, mortgages, friendships, and cousins and things to lose. And things to lose. Now, they signed up and they're good at keeping their mouth shut, but they never signed up for somebody going, all right, it's over here. It's over here. Here. Hey, George, come here. Let me show. Hey, George, what have you been doing for the past?

Because you have to do something like that for the world to believe it. Right. Because that's a tall order for the people to just swallow. Oh, we're not alone in the universe and we have extraterrestrial or some type of non-human technology? You better show me. It's the only way they have been creating this disinformation, Muddy the Waters campaign, for a long time since 1947 at least so now we're finally here and we're not going to believe it unless

you show us all of it exactly and they can't do that can't do that it's a it's a trap it's a trap and so as a result and i think the military industrial complex is just kind of cracking their knuckles and saying we know that it's it's a trap they're like do you get it now yeah exactly and so that's where bob said maybe i am the asshole maybe this was supposed to be kept secret maybe i shouldn't have come and I didn't realize what I was doing. That's where that came from when he said that. He says, maybe this should be kept secret because it could cause havoc. Who knows?

He also said in an interview, there's one of our fans, his name is Marcello Romano. He's probably listening, and I love that kid. He's got a very, very bad thing that happened to him, a medical malpractice thing that gave him a horrible lifelong problem that is probably not going to make his life. young kid and and he reached out to us says i don't think i'm going to be here for a long time i'd love to see the movie ahead of time whatever we got to meet him bob bob was so nice this guy lives not two hours away from bob bob said tell that kid that it's my birthday on friday and i'd rather be with him than with anybody else on my birthday that kid it was his dream to me bob lazar goes out

there and we have a conversation with him and bob opened up it'll be on our channel we'll eventually put that conversation out. And Bob said, there is no way to get this technology out to the world without immediately causing a major problem. He says, if they can replicate it, which is possibly not the case, by the way. They could use it. They don't know how to replicate it. So that's another problem. That's a chimpanzee with a machine gun. Exactly. So what you're doing here is you're essentially removing all borders. If we could go anywhere, anytime, however we want, instantly. Well, what do we care about border patrol and the borders, the countries and cultures, and all of a sudden, that doesn't matter. What about pandemics? If I go to Africa right now and I go

hang out, if I decide to go to Zimbabwe and go with some of the tribes out there and hang out with them for a month, and when I come back and the border guy in Canada goes, have you been in certain areas? Yes. Well, I'm going to get sealed off. Yep. They're going to make sure I don't have Ebola. They're going to make sure I don't have... Why? Well, it's because we don't have that in Canada. Right. Right? Well, all of a sudden, that just goes away. I could go to Zimbabwe, hang out, get Dengay, go back home, give Dengue to a mosquito flies into this thing. We go out and everybody starts getting sick. What the hell tells us that can't happen?

Or just show up at the Kremlin or Langley? And you could... Bob said you want to get all the gold in the world, go to four. Knox, just take it and go away. Like, what stops us from using this? And, you know, my friend Chris Ramsey said to me, it's the best thing about the government. He says, if the government of the United States invented a drop of water,

the first thing they do is figure out how to drown you in it. It'll turn it into a weapon. Yep. Absolutely. That's the reality of it. So if we don't accept that and we want to pretend that's not reality, and we want to live in the world where everybody says, well, I'm ready for it.

No. You don't even know what you're talking about. We're not ready for it. We're not ready for it. I don't personally think I am because, I mean, I've been so exposed to the topic for so long. Of course, I would love to know. But that's a selfish thing that I'm saying. Because what the hell am I really talking about?

Because I don't even know what it is. Well, that's my last question, is forget what Bob. says you've been doing the war for 35 years what is really happening in the skies in the water what do you think is going on the right answer is I don't know if I if I gave you an answer that means I haven't been doing this for 35 years do you have a favorite theory time travel ultra dimension I don't think I don't think that time traveling and extraterrestrials are a separate thing interesting I think that there is no way to travel in a linear fashion in the universe. I don't believe that. I don't think that's

I think that's just the reality of space and time. There's nothing that travels faster than light in a linear direction. Based on that, we cannot reach Alpha Centauri for 30 years, something like that. Or is it four years at the speed of light? I can't remember. Yeah, it's 3.8, 3.9 years. Light years. So the thing is, that's not how we're going to travel. Whatever these objects can do, I call them objects because they're technological marvels, call them that. They apparently have, and this is, again, not just based on what Bob Lazar says,

but also some of the people that are coming out talking about these gravity generators, these, having controlling gravity, controlling some type of time warp. Yep. Gravity and time and space are interlocked. It's the same thing. It's exactly the same thing. We're essentially bending space and time. You're time traveling.

In our, we're not time traveling like Marty was time traveling in the Dolorean time machine. Right. But we are, it is time travel. If you're manipulating gravity. If you're manipulating gravity, you are essentially. manipulating time. You're not doing it to go like, let me go back and see if I can give myself the lottery

numbers. That's not what's happening. Right. So to me, it has to be extraterrestrial. I think. It has to be extraterrestrial. It's not just one species.

I don't believe it's only one type that have been here. I do believe they have been here. I'm very high conviction they have. I can't prove it. Like everyone can't prove it. But I can't prove it as much as the Pope can prove that Jesus walked on earth. That's fair enough.

Okay? There's a lot of people in the world that believed that Jesus walked on water, multiplied bread, raised the dead, turned water into wine, and they believe it. There is absolutely nothing that supports it. But they believe it, and they'll die believing it. But yet there's an enormous amount of evidence that there are objects in the sky that are producing, they're doing things

that are absolutely impossible with conventional aircrafts that we have, caught them on radar, caught them on multisystems. Yet we don't want to believe that that's possible that they came from another planet. Because, and I also spoke to some the most well-known scientists out there, because there's no way for them to come here.

It's too far away. Yeah. With our type of technology, of course. Right. We couldn't have gone to the moon on a horse and carriage. That's true. So it's like, of course, I get it. But there's more, and we'll keep finding more.

We only know 5% of physics. Exactly. So it's in there somewhere. Well, eventually, I hope we get a little bit of clarity but my hope before we get clarity on the ETs and the UFOs, going back to what my friend used to say, Emily, I hope we start paying attention more to us as a species and start becoming a better species to ourselves first.

Then we'll worry about E.T. That's going to be a long time coming. Luigi Vendateli, I hope you become a full-time filmmaker. It's amazing. S-4 is amazing. Thank you. Excellent. Anything? Do you want to send them anywhere?

Well, look, it's available, obviously, on Amazon Prime Video under S4, the Bob Lazzar story, and it's also available on we are not alone.com. All right, I'm going to be looking for the UFO and the book and all that stuff. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Bye, everybody. So that was Luigi Venditelli, former national director of Mufon Canada and the filmmaker behind S4 The Bob Lizar story. Bob Lazzar's timeline holds up on specific checkable points.

He went public through journalist George Knapp on Las Vegas TV in May 1989, describing a fuel source, element 115, that didn't exist yet. It was first synthesized in 2003, naming a then-none-existent element in 1989 is a strange thing to get right if you didn't know about it. The 1941 map Luigi's team found is also real. It shows a road leading into the mountain at Papuos Lake, exactly where Lazar placed S4.

Maps from 1950 and 1952 don't show that road at all. And the Papus Lake map was edited eight days after Lizar went public. Luigi's light discovery, that the craft's interior appear to absorb rather than reflect halogen lighting. While ultra-light absorbing materials are a real field of research. And whether this particular material behaves that way, I don't know, but it is scientifically possible. And here's what I keep coming back to. Emily Trim's last words to Luigi. They came down from the sky and landed in front of us

and talked to us so that we could tell the world and nobody cared. Whatever happened at the Ariel School in Zimbabwe in 1994, this is a woman who spent her life trying to communicate something shown to her as a child. She died believing no one listened. And those images the beings transmitted, war, suffering, the earth on fire,

that seems to be happening all around us right now. I hope we do something about it. As for, the Babazar story, is on Amazon Prime video. I promise it's really good. Luigi's company is We Are Not Alone.com. For background on the foundational crash that started all of this, I covered Roswell front to back. The truth about Roswell, link down below. Until next time, be safe. Be kind. And know that you are appreciated. as well as music

so I'm singing the like I should the peace fear is and it never ends no it never end with MK Ultra are being only two of with the shadow people just thought them was cold

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