The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Nerdrotic | From Folsom Prison to Millions of Subscribers

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

Before YouTube. Before millions of subscribers. Before Friday Night Tights — Gary Buechler had a story almost nobody knew. It starts at Folsom Prison, a neighbor's jar of pennies, and a double-murderer cellmate who wouldn't leave him alone. His memoir is called Waiting For. That title alone should tell you something. He sat down with AJ in The Basement and held nothing back. Watch to the end. NERDROTIC LINKS https://www.youtube.com/@nerdrotic https://x.com/nerdrotics https://www.instagram.com/nerdrotic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking with Gary Beakler. You probably know him as nerdronic. Gary has built a media empire around pop culture commentary. Friday night tights, forbidden frontier, and a YouTube channel at Hollywood Studios now quietly track. Yeah, so Hollywood finally figured out how to read the room. And the room says, we hate everything you make. Nice. But before any of this existed, Gary grew up in San Diego in the 80s.

He spent years running from a trauma that he never shared with anyone. 80's San Diego Has Top Gun Beach Valley Bowl And endless amounts of party powder He's running from it But I'm gonna run it to it I feel the need

I feel the need Do it or I'll sing Take my breath away I'm not doing it I feel the need Fine The need for speed The need for speed

Gary eventually ended up at old Folsom State Prison. Not new Folsom, old Folsom. Johnny Cash Folsom. I didn't know there were two fulsoms. You're not going to like it. Well, today we cover all of it.

The second grade teacher who changed his life, what is like to share a cell with a double murderer, and how he went from sleeping in his car to building a YouTube empire. Let's go down to the basement. Gary, welcome to the basement. Why, thank you. That's embarrassing.

It's all good. Before we get started, I ask everyone this question, UFO, experience researchers, physicists, the certain, same question, hypothetical, Desert Island, you get one choice. What flavor toilet wine? Toilet wine? What flavor? I would say. Pruno.

Pruno. It would have to be pruno, which is made from oranges. Oh, you go orange? Well, I have to. I mean, like, I would have to break my sobriety because, like, I'm, you know. dead, right? Right. Totally hypothetical.

I would rather grow cocoa plants. If I'm going to go out, I'm going to go out good. But yeah, orange. That's the one I'm the most familiar with. I never touched the stuff, but I certainly helped people make it and helped people hide it. I read it about that. So, yes, it's oranges, I believe it's yeast, and you let it ferment for a little while. Why did you call it toilet wine?

Oh, well, sometimes you need. need to get your water from places other. They mostly get it from the sink. But I think that's just the term they use. Plus, it's usually hidden around the toilet or under a bunk. It can only last for so long because they search the cells pretty regularly and randomly. So it has to be, honestly, I don't know how they do it. They were able to switch cells and probably a guard tipped them off at some point, you know,

some bribery, but like it's in like bags. It's in trash bags. It was the weirdest thing to learn about people making wine in the joint. And apparently it's really strong. Really? Yeah, it's like really, really strong wine. Strong for wine. It's not like booze, though.

No, no. But when you're, you got a bunch of guys who haven't drank or anything for months, it would probably hit them pretty hard. I bet it would. And you've had, you've had alcohol before. Yes. Yes. Before we go into the origin story,

I know you've told it a million times. It's such a good story. When I was reading it, I cried at the end, and I felt myself getting angry at you during it, especially because I know you, and you're a friend. I love you, so I know how it ends. Love you, man.

Right, man. And I just want to smack you in the head every step of the way, which we're going to get into. Before we do the origin story, it's kick it off positive. What's on TV? or whatever movie that you're liking right now? Three things have come out this year.

What do you got? A Night of the Seven Kingdoms was damn near 10 out of 10. Just a great adaptation of a great novella by George R. Martin, who needs to finish his other books. It is a really simple tale of heroism and what it means to be a knight and chivalry. And while it still has some of the Game of Thrones aspects of it, It's very linear and you can't help but root for both dunk and egg.

It was a short series and it built momentum as time went on and I just absolutely loved every minute of it. I did too. I didn't start nights until it was like episode three and I started like this just arms folded because of just angry and every, but angry at season six, all that dark night. Angry at George. I don't know how many days we are waiting for the last book. Over 5,000. 5,000.

Yeah. And of course, he's executive producer. So I watched, I don't know, it was maybe 10 minutes into the first episode, and I was like, okay, they did it. This is really true to the books as I've read those, and I love it. Number two.

One Piece Season 2? Absolutely loved it. Okay. Never thought I would like this show. I'm not like the biggest anime fan in the world. When I saw the trailer for season one, it looked like the worst thing I've ever seen. scene. I love season one and I love season two. Really? I'm not an anime guy. That's interesting.

It's it in the same vein of the three things I like are a night of the seven kingdoms, Project Hail Mary and one piece. And the one thing they have in common is a positive look at the world. I'm so sick to death. I like nihilism. I did. I liked all that subversion stuff back in 2010s when it was cool. It is so overdone. I am it's just it's cooked at this point as the kids say. Gen Z thinks they came up with that. I know they did. It's been around for 100 years. Okay. Just want to let you know. No, but seeing heroes with a positive outlook, seeing something hopeful is nice. It's just really nice. And I love all three of those things. And it makes you wonder if they can turn

things around. Probably not, but you know. Was your number three, Hail Mary? Hail Mary. Love Project Hail Mary. That could say, of Hollywood, at least for a while, because that brought everybody back to the theaters. It did. Top Gun Maverick did the same thing, though. That's what I was about to say. Three years ago, and they learned nothing from it,

and they thought it was just this jingoistic, patriotic movie. It's like, no, it was just a feel-good heroic story. And the reason we go to the theater, or you have to make this distinction for popcorn movies, for tent pole movies, is to escape. Right. I don't need to be lectured to.

There are certainly spaces and times for those movies. You can make them all day long as independent films. But when it comes to, I want to take my family or I want to just go and have a good time and turn off the rest of the world, that's when Hollywood is doing their best. And that's when they actually put good in the world. They really love to think that they're changing the world

and what they're not providing entertainment. They're a platform for influence, AJ. And we're gonna teach those plebs out in a middle America how to think. You know, instead of just going, you know, let's just entertain them and it brings people together and we've lost that with the division. I think some in Hollywood is starting to recognize that. The problem is it's like Twitter before Elon took over.

The cancer was there and you have to cut it out root and stem. And it's, I don't think it's possible in Hollywood. I think there will be some change. but I think the lesson we can learn from Project Hail Mary is this is what people want. I mean, it's just a nice hopeful story with a really dark, you know, the world is ending. Oh yeah. And it like, it made me want to watch all the space movies. So I've watched 2001, which is amazing.

Interstellar. Contacts. Amazing. Contacts 10 out of 10. Contacts still the best. Contacts the best. The ending, it's okay. Arrival if that was solid.

Let me push back on one thing. Sure. And this is not going to be a political show because people are going to be surprised. You're not a political guy. No. Gene Roddenberry put his politics in his shows. And we love the original series. So his politics were in there.

Why do they work? They worked because they weren't that heavy-handed. And when they approached the audience, it was in a way, if you want to change somebody's mind, I would discourage you going. hey bigot, listen to me. You know, that's not how you change people's mind. The defenses automatically go up. So what they do is they present to you the idea and they leave it kind of up to you

in a lot of Star Trek. They leave in a lot of X-Files. They leave it up to you to kind of see that stuff. And that's the mark of a good writer. And we certainly know where Gene Rodenberry's, you know, politics come from. But we also have to consider the time he grew up, the time he, You know, he went to, not grew up, but, you know, he went to World War II. He's a writer who lived a life.

We have right. None of the writers, not most of the writers in current Hollywood, have not lived the lives of the writers of even 10 or 20 years ago who were veterans or had careers before writing. Now they're just, their knowledge of the world is other TV shows and riffing other TV shows. Right. And I think Roddenberry was all. always story first. So his politics were there. He wanted his politics were just, let's say, all get along, make the world a better place, but it was always about the story. And that's

flipped a little bit with some properties. Particularly with Star Trek. Yes. Star Trek lost its way, and that's why right now for the first time in 10 years, there's no Star Trek in production. In my humble opinion, there hasn't been any Star Trek in production in that time, except for Picard season three. I like it, but... Hashtag bring back Patalus. Yes. I was the same way, and I was all in on Star Trek, all of it. I'm a nineer, DS9. That's my favorite.

It's good. So I stuck with Discovery for a long time. Eventually, I was just out. I was so disappointed. And I never came back, except I heard you talking about Picard, which I started, and it was terrible. And season three was that, it was like now they finally figured it out. Now, how did that, how did it happen that we got the story that we wanted as Star Trek fans? Kurtzman and Akiva Goldsman, Akiva Goldsman won an Academy Award, right? But he's not really, and he wrote Constantine, which is actually a good movie, not really good at Star Trek, in my opinion at all. And Picard

season one or two are the like last Jedi of Star Trek. They're so just Picard is a broken old man. So it got better because Kurtzmann went off to go do the man who fell to Earth. And it was obligatory that they have

they owed Patrick Stewart a third season. So they gave him no money. Basically the entire series is a bottle series. And, but he had no supervision and he was able to do whatever he wanted. Word on the street is he was able to fire everybody he wanted to except for one person. He made that one person work. I won't say who it is,

but he made that one person work and he brought back the crew and he just, it was a bunch of fan service and he had to do mental gymnastics to bring back the Enterprise D and the like and it worked. It was and the funniest bit at the end, well they gave Star Trek fans something Star, Star Wars fans didn't get. We had the crew of the enterprise on the Enterprise D at the end of an episode just together, the carpet, the lighting, everything. It's all we wanted. That's all we wanted. It's all we wanted. And, you know, logic be damned. And the best part at the end was there was a virus from the Borg that affected only young people. It was a mine virus. So that's how they worked it out where the old people had to come in and save the young people. It was great.

Right. Like, are you getting it? When Wharf showed up, did you, I was screaming when Warf showed up. Absolutely. Michael Dorn's just still bringing it. It's my favorite, outside of the original series, that is my favorite modern Star Trek character. He ruled. He was the best.

The best moment in Picard season three for me was when, oh, such fan service, so gratuitous, I loved it. It was when they were at the shipyard, going through all the ships, and you just hear the theme song. woven through. Yep. And I was, the tears are coming down. I was just, I was a mess.

You're like, I didn't know I needed this. I knew I did. I knew I did, but I didn't know it would be executed so perfectly. It was, it was just such a pleasure. And it came from somebody who,

like, Terry Mattalus, you can't deny the man loves Star Trek. Like, loves Star Trek and probably, I don't know, David Ellison if you're out there,

because of course you watch the Y Files. That's probably the guy you should hire. That's the guy should, to run Star Trek right now. See my suggestion. I think he might do it. I don't know if, if Kurtzman's going to get another project

after Starfleet Academy. If he does, Paramount Warner Brothers are done. They're done. They're done as a company. Because that really tells you what the path is. I don't think he's coming back. I think he's not.

I don't think so either. And whenever I hear you or drinker or people saying Star Trek is over, I know you don't mean it. I know that if it comes back and they give you what you want, you're coming right back. Of course. Of course. Of course.

Of course. I'm a fan. I love Star Trek is part of your life, part of my life. We didn't have a lot of TV, not to age as too much, but we have, what, three channels to choose from? Three. I was lucky because I was in San Diego. So I had six because we had the San Diego and we got the L.A. stations. Oh, okay.

But they all played the same stuff. I was saying, you know, but it was just Star Trek, Twilight Zone, outer limits, Gilligan's Island, like, on heavy rotation. It's so weird you said Gilligan's Island, because I was just thinking that, as you said, what we watched, we watched Gilligan's Island all the time. All the time. I don't know why. And the original Batman was always on.

The first superhero shows I watched were George Reeves Superman and Adam West Batman. Yes, same. And I thought it was, you know, I was a kid. So I'm like, this is totally a serious show. This is an earnest show. I forget the name of it. The book is around here somewhere. It's a story about George Reeves and the terrible and the horrible life that he had.

It's really weird reading. He's a tragedy. But he was a great Superman. So we've been friends for a long time. And I've been a fan of yours. I probably, probably during COVID. So a long time. And I know you've told me.

your origin story a million times. You have a lot of fans here at the studio. And I was talking to one of them just the other day. And I said, oh, Gary's going to tell this prison story again. And she goes, what? He was in prison? So apparently people don't know. Some people don't know that you did real time.

Yeah. Comparatively, yeah. Well, reading your memoir, there were times where I was actually scared, because you're so honest in it about, you're really honest in it. which we'll get into really surprisingly honest. So when you establish that honesty very early on,

like what happened when you were a kid, now I never know it's going to happen. It's like a George Martin novel, right? You never know who's going to die next. So it's established. So when you're in prison, I'm just waiting for the tragedy and eventually things do happen.

So I want to hear about the beginning even before. talk about you're adopted. Yeah. I was my, my birth mom, who I am in contact with this very day, who's a lovely woman, got pregnant with me when she was 16. She was a partier back in the 60s, you know, and I don't hold this against her at all. She's, again, she's a wonderful Catholic, good Catholic woman now. and my sperm donor dad who I've never met don't know what he looks like don't care are you angry

about him not not at all okay no I mean I understand he was young too but I figured if um if he wanted to find me he he could find me right I had a dad though so I in the dad department totally taken care of so I was adopted so wait hang on if you met your birth mug you didn't ask about your I've asked about him, but I've never really... What did she say? She doesn't know. Once he was gone, he was gone. So he promised to stay with her.

He was... The only thing I know about him is his name, and he was a seventh day at Venice. So... Okay. Okay. Wasn't practicing very well, I guess. Was he good to her? Up until the end, yes.

Okay. Yeah, up until the end. And he said he'd stay. and this would be a quick she doesn't really talk about it a bunch and I don't push but he had promised to stay and then he took off okay and he was at the time I think 18 so it's like I kind of get it yeah that's why it's okay yeah you know I kind of get yeah I'm not um was I angry about it when I was younger absolutely but I'm not now um when did you find out you were adopted very early um I think my parents told me when I was

Seven? When you were seven. Six or seven. Yeah. How did that conversation start? Oh. What little I remember of it. My mom and dad both just wanted to like, they sat down and go, we love you.

The same as Terry, you know, but we have to tell you this. That's, it's foggy that conversation. But I remember it tripping me out for a, listen, if you're adopted. it, it, I'm sure it affects people differently, but it affects you. It does. It's like I, you, you, you, you, you, you don't feel wanted. And you're always thinking about that person who, like, who just dump you. What does she look like?

Right. Why did she do this, you know? Why did, why were you rejected? Yeah. And you're trying to deal with stuff like that when you're like seven years old. So, I used to, yeah, I used to like have a little fantasies about it. it when I was a kid. But like honestly, I never got mad at my parents about it and other than feeling the abandonment. When is a good age to tell an adopt? Boy, I don't know if there's ever a good

I think early as possible is the best way to do it. Seven feels really hard. Yeah, but if you wait too long. True. It's true. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know a good answer to that question, but it softened the blow with me because again, it's going to affect you. no matter what. So do you affect them early or late? That's on the parent to do that. I don't have a good suggestion for that. But for me, it wasn't terrible.

Well, you were kind of a little asshole. Yes. For a long time. Long time. Do you think... Some might argue I still am. Some might. I wouldn't.

But you're kind of an asshole. Your poor parents, man. Reading the book, I'm like, they're still sticking with this kid. If they had told you a little later, Do you think you would have been a little more chill? Maybe. I'm just,

because there's an undercurrent of anger in your origin story. Yeah. Railing against the man, authority, all of that. The anger is coming from somewhere because when you're 11 or 12, you don't really know anything. So what are you angry about? So if they waited.

If they waited, I don't think it would have helped my anger. Maybe a more mature 12th. because I wasn't super mature. But that was because of the things that have, I, if anything that made me angry, we can talk about like what happened to me in school. Let's do it.

This is way worse than finding out, uh, I was adopted was, uh, molested by a teacher, by a school teacher. So how old? Uh,

I was in second grade. So whatever age second grade is. Six or seven. Yeah. So right around the same time. Right around the same time. That's a busy year. That's a,

Were you singled out by that teacher? I don't know. It felt like I was, but I honestly don't know. And he was brazen about it. Like he would, like during a, we were watching a Disney movie. Maybe this is why I hate Disney. We were watching a Disney movie and he pulled me in the back. And while the kids are watching and did stuff, right?

I was about to say nothing horrible, but no, it was horrible. Of course it was. It was all horrible, right? So this, I, if you want to, like, put a finger on my deep distrust of the government, the system, my, I don't like teachers unions because they protect, this is not AJ, this is me. They protect people like this. Yep. And it's been proven that they do this. And they don't do anything about it.

So it really set me up to completely fail in school, not trust any adult, not trust any authority. So there's definitely anger there that you're carrying. You didn't tell anyone about what the teacher was doing, right? No, no, no, no. Didn't tell. As a matter of fact, I got, when one day was particularly bad, I bailed on school. I just walked out of school.

Second grade? Yeah, in second grade. So there's a little second grader walking home. on this busy La Costa Avenue. If you're familiar with Southern California, a little second grader. And people started noticing that. They called the school.

Bus driver came and got me. And I got in trouble. I got in huge trouble for it. That's interesting. And I couldn't say what I was, you know, they're all, why'd you leave?

That would make any kid angry. Yep. Because I hear you are taking the heat for it. And you have no idea what I've been through it. I was angry at that. teach you the whole way through your book. I know you were through your sobriety. We'll get to that.

How you got through that is amazing. I don't know if I could. So second grade, when did you start becoming a delinquent? Not far after that. I wanted a toy. Yeah. And knew where the spare key was

and broke into my friend's house, got caught by his dad. You know, like all this, this is at a single digit. Single digit. Broke into my first house. I mean, a theme. Just because I wanted something.

Throughout your book, you're just the worst criminal ever. You're just not good at it, Gary. No, I'm not good at it. Stupid as hell. Still I'm,

by the way. But yeah, I just, you know, I just, like, I remember, I remember getting caught.

Of course. Yeah. And, uh, I went home and they told my dad and I got in a huge amount of trouble, but it never discouraged me at all. No, it did it. You kept going back.

I kept doing it. What about substances, booze and stuff? When did that start? That started, oh God, 11, 10, 11, 12. How is that even around an 11 year old? Well, pot was around. Sure. Pot was around.

But first time I really got drunk was at Roscoe, South of. Dakota. They had a centennial. Yeah, centennial. And there was like half drinking beers laying around and I'm like, oh, I just want to try this. Because my dad would let me sip a beer. Sure. So I saw everybody else getting drunk. I'm like, uh, let's try it. And I loved it. I was like, oh, so I'm drinking like people, I don't know what the hell's in this can. I didn't care. You love the drink or you love the feeling. I love the feeling. A drink tastes like crap. Yep. Yep. I've never liked to taste alcohol. But the escape is pretty good.

Yep. That's where it all started. I'm like, oh, this is for me. This is for me. And then it went to pot and not too far after that. A friend of mine laid out a line of crystal meth, which is a lot, I guess, a lot different now than it was back then. It was called crank back then.

How old are you now when the... This is junior high. Are you holding now? have anything decent. Nothing good? Nothing good? No. No.

I've got some nicotine things that... There you go. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, I have one bad habit still. I vape. That is not your only bad habit. But that's fine.

That's fine. Right now. No, so, okay. So I'm... So where's your crank? Who are you hanging out with? I didn't see... I hardly saw a pot growing up.

And it's not like... Oh, this was just my friends in junior high. And I was a jock early on. So I was hanging out with the jocks. Football. Football. Basketball. So I played tied in.

I played linebacker. I was also punter. I was backup quarterback. So I was pretty good for a white boy in like all white boy county. Yep. But yeah. So he lays out a line for me and I did it. And then I'm like, what's it do?

I had no idea what it did. He's all, you get your homework done today. And I got my homework done. I'm like, this is great. It makes me excited about everything I hate. Because school never really worked for me. And I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who feel the same way. It just, I was, I think the best, at best I was a C student when I paid attention.

But it never captured my attention. This is before drugs. It just never interested me. This is basically Adderall. Yeah. It's, I mean, people, they called it hyperactors. back then. I was considered a hyperactive child. Yep.

And it did, I mean, it did focus me for a little while. It did, but. Look, I'm on that stuff. I've used that stuff. I struggle with drinking too much. I go sober on and off. I struggle with it on and off. I totally feel all of this. You just went, you went harder, but I totally get all of it.

And that feeling of just clarity of all the chaos and the ADHD mind. is very, very intriguing of just like, oh my goodness, I could be productive. Yeah. And it's, it was the first, I'm like, maybe there's something wrong with me. Like, I've heard that before, but it was the first time I'm like, if this stuff works on me, that can't be good. I even knew that. You knew that then.

Yeah. But the fact is, it works and it makes, it makes me focused for the first time. The thing is, though, that's not exactly true because I would focus like crazy on stuff I was interested in. Like I would focus on comics and entertainment and all this stuff my dad and my mom said wasn't important. And they were wrong. They said it wasn't important. And it wouldn't pay attention to anything I was supposed to. And it eventually got me out of like the things I did love sports. It got me out of those. And then I started hanging around with all the bad kids. Because once I started doing the drugs, I'm like, well, I need to hang around the people who are doing the drugs.

Yeah, we have the drugs. And you're not really going to school anymore, right? No, no. I started ditching in a freshman year. And I managed to squeak out sophomore year. But then that was it. I got kicked out of San Diego High School. Hang on one second.

Hey, Haley, get Jen in here. Started using, when the meth started when you were what, about 13? Yeah. 14. How are you getting the money for that? How am I getting the money for that? Well, at first, it was friends had the money and they shared it and it was kind of like normal. I had a paper route, but did you get the paper route saying I need drug money?

No, no, no, that was that was normal. That was normal. But right away stealing like right away. I would get jobs. So the jobs came later, like when I was 16. My first job was at Burger King. Come sit on my lap. Okay.

Oh, boy. Stage directions. Okay. Gary bounces around a couple of high schools. He's not doing, he's not doing well. Okay. He goes to, I guess, the high school for bad kids, right? Yeah.

This is just a quick scene, have a seat. Okay. Oh, boy. Okay. Your stage direction. I'm the teacher. All right. And Gary's.

Gary. We'll start with stage direction, interior sunset high school. Okay. Oh, God, sunset. Interior sunset high school classroom day. The last bell rings. Students file out. Gary Beakler, 17, wiry, restless, stay seated at his desk, but not by choice. He watches the other kids leave with the dead-eyed patience of someone who's been through this before. The teacher, mid-40s, waits behind his desk, jaw-tight until the room empties, a long beat of silence. Then he stands, walks slowly to Gary's desk and looks him dead in the eye. Beakler, I've had enough of you. Gary doesn't flinch. He looks right back.

Yeah, is that right? It absolutely is. I've had more than my fill of you, way more. You don't say. Yeah, I do. I do say. You're wasting my time, Beakler, you're wasting everyone's time here. We both know you don't belong here at sunset. You're never going to amount to anything ever. And as far as I'm concerned, I want you out of here. Gary stands up slowly. No fear. No hesitation. Really? Really. I've got the most amazing coincidence to share with you. I want the same goddamn thing.

So here's my idea. What if you go fuck yourself? The teacher's face goes red. He starts screaming. A full-blown unhinged adult meltdown. Gary has never seen anything like it. Beakler! You cannot talk to a teacher like that, you useless piece of shit!

They stare each other down, a long electric beat. Gary thinks for a couple of seconds, then he makes his decision. He punches the teacher, square in the mouth, hard. The teacher goes down fast. He doesn't come back up. Gary looks at him on the floor, looks at the door, he walks out. Fade to black. Fade to black.

That was the end of my school career. Wow. Punched him right in the mouth. Yep. That was a tense scene because I was waiting for him to punch you. I wanted him to. I wanted him to punch you. And that was the end of your school career?

That was it. Press charges? No. No, no, nothing. I mean, dodged another bullet. And I was partying so hard. If they could, they could oppress charges or told my parents, wouldn't have mattered. Like, that was pretty much gone at that point.

What are they, what are your parents trying to do? Are they trying to intervene? Are they just? My parents have given up at that point. What do you mean giving up? They're still letting you stay? No, they booted me. So, right, yeah, they booted me.

No, it was the greatest act of love my father ever showed me. My father, Arvin Beechler, I passed away in the early 2000s from cancer and was a great man. And I didn't recognize that. He was a great man. Yep. Yep. And greatest act of love he ever showed me was to give me the boot and not look back. And I'm sure it killed him inside.

At the time, I thought he was a complete asshole and couldn't care less if he lived or died. my mom would enable. I was able to manipulate my mom and enable at times when I needed to, but mostly I was on my own. On the streets. We'll keep a chronological, but just a sidebar. Your story about your dad, I had the same story with the cancer and the internet.

It sucks. It sucks to watch my dad was a superhero to watch him get cancer just kick his ass. Did dad ever forgive you? Yes. Yes. we reconciled and we actually got really close towards the last right when I got out of a we won't get too far ahead but after prison we were the best of friends absolute the best of friends I was so happy to hear that yeah um because I couldn't believe they

stuck with you I couldn't either all right so you're you punched the teacher in the mouth no charges what happens next what do you set 16 16 and it's just just pure chaos. Staying, mostly staying in my friend's house. I mean, all the names were changed to protect the innocent and guilty.

Right. So this is Bobby? Yes. And we stayed at the, it was called the Crystal Palace. People from Edsonidas will know it. So you'll know who I'm talking about at the time in the 80s. And it was just a party house.

It was not unlike the crass house in the UK. If you're familiar with the story of the crass house, except there's no creative, Well, there was some creativity going on. But it was mostly just drugs. His dad was a bartender and would be gone all day. And when he came back, he was just checked out and didn't care. So drunk?

Drunk. Completely drunk, complete alcohol. So this is perfect. Yeah. Oh, it's perfect. Perfect. Right. We had girls over all the time.

And we were not like the coolest kids in school. You were. But we became that because we threw the parties. and it was for a while it was like lots of fun and that was my like found family for a little while. Of course it all went to shit pretty quick. You seem to know pretty early on that you are making bad decisions that you're going to have to pay for one day. How early, how young did you realize this is a bad decision? I'm doing it anyway, but this is not going to add well.

Yeah, I never thought I'd live to 30. So I'm like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to. I'm just going to write this out. Now, I was not ever, like, suicidal. But I'm like, you know, this, but I never really gave it a ton of thought about the, I knew the consequences were there, but I'm like, that's tomorrow. That's tomorrow. That's tomorrow.

I'm going to get, because when, you know, the worst one day at a time ever. It is. That's why they teach you one day at a time because that's pretty much how the addict goes about. It is just today I need to, I either have my drugs when I, if I wake up in the morning, if I'm not up all night. Or I got to find my drugs. And it's like feeding. It's like a shark feeding.

You have to have that. And then everything else can happen in jobs and friends, relationships, friends, girlfriends, none of that matters because the drugs are your God. And that's where the disease portion comes in. I think a lot of people fight back on this. And I get it. I get it.

It's not a disease in the sense of, you know, know like Parkinson's or cancer. It's a way worse. It's a disease that requires a conscious decision. So I think if anybody ever used the disease part as an excuse to, you know, to relieve them of any responsibility, that's that's not, that's not what it means. It just means that our brain chemistry is different and not necessarily good. So we have an addictive personality to where, you know, there's just some people who can drink half a beer and leave it on the counter. I was never that person and I don't think any addict is. I drink till it's dark, black, so it's gone.

Yeah, yeah. But I was like that with my Halloween candy. Like I couldn't. I ate it all one night. You were instructed not to do that. Yes. So Crystal Palace, 1617. I guess we can fast forward to

Bobby's in the backseat, what waying out baggies, because you're dealing a little bit, right? Yeah. Mostly using, but dealing a little bit to make some cash. Yeah,

I was dealing to pretty much my friends or a couple of older people, but I knew everybody. I was never dealing to strangers or it was usually just my fellow teenagers. It was part of the party. Yep. I was terrible at it.

I was awful. So Bobby's in the back. You're driving. You're, I think this is your Oldsmobile? Yeah, 67 Oldsmobile. It was sweet. 22,000 miles on it. It was a sweet car.

Got it from a little old lady who was a neighbor of my grandma. Always the little old ladies where the good cars come from. Didn't end up for the Olds either. So you're driving the old. Bobby's in the back, way, and out baggies, whoop, whoop, here we go. And. And. Mm.

You didn't get into it too much, but you knew this lady cop. Yes. How did you know her? She had busted us on enough times for like curfew and and just little minor stuff, but little scraps here and there. But we used to hang out at a pinball plus. It was an arcade. There was not much to do in Southern California in the 80s in San Diego.

It is suburbia. So if there is an arcade, that's where every kid's going to go. And that's what we did. Same. So they started enforcing a curfew. So that's how we knew each other. And she really hated me. But I had, uh, she hated you because of your attitude.

Yeah, my attitude was shit. Like she had a good reason to. It's not like she didn't. Because this anti-authority thing goes through all this, right? Yes. And she's the man. So she knocks in the windows. Ah, hey, Gary.

Yeah. Yeah. And you were high officer? Hello. And, well, there's the Batman handcuffs, right? That's right. Is that why you got pulled over? I got pulled over for Batman handcuffs hanging off my rearview mirror as an obstruction.

But she saw me, she saw me and found an excuse. And yeah, so we got busted. Now, hang on. She tossed the car. Yeah, tossed it. And you said she looked, she found that, found the meth. It was like she hit the lottery. It was a greatest day of her life.

Absolutely. been waiting for this all summer long. Scale. Scale. Intense distribute. Yep. Scale. I told him to keep a fucking home, but he didn't.

And that was the first time I really went to jail. No, that's it. Yeah, that was, I went for a couple weeks, a couple three weeks. No, hold on a second. You go in, you get booked. I come from a cop family. I don't have this first. You get booked.

You get separated. And they want to know the story when they're writing you up. Bobby fingered you, yeah. Yeah, he did. Because you were just driving. I told the truth. I was just driving. But nobody's going to believe that it wasn't mine.

But it really wasn't. But he's all, no, it was his. So you didn't snitch. Bobby did. Bobby did. And you go to jail? Yeah. And this is the first time.

So we're in San Diego County Jail. and it's it's down near union street downtown are you see street are you nervous you frightened oh totally totally like this is like what the hell is going on and then we're you know do you show it or you try to be tough i try to be tough don't know how much i pulled it off luckily the chaos of the place probably kind of hid that because it was just a big dorm right and it was a big receiving dorm You didn't know at this point that this is nothing. Oh, no clue. Nothing.

No clue. Got out of that one. How did mom and dad handle that? Not very well, but my dad got a lawyer and said this is the one time I'll help you. If I remember correctly, you technically got the lawyer, right? Yeah, well, yes. What do you say through the glass? Oh, the lawyer?

Yeah. Well, do you know what I had to give up to get this lawyer, right? I do. They don't. Okay. I had to give up an Oldsmobile. The Oldsmobile to 67 old because your dad said, I'm going to get you this lawyer, but you're going to pay for it. Yes, yes, sir.

Yes, sir. Of course. For freedom. I didn't even think twice about it. I mean, it hurts now because I'm like, maybe I could have stayed in an extra week. But I had to give up that. And like the engine was it was spotless dude like the painting on the you know I'm having to go off memory but it said spitfire engine on it was painted in red and it was all original and was all still there

was it 350? Yeah. Oh yeah. It was 350. So your dad must have been so proud. His baby boy found his way. All problems are solved. No. Dad was not happy about any of this and they, you know, know you got to get clean they did all that stuff and i just kept partying i just you know once once once i was out and still booze and meth right booze booze booze and meth it became more meth i was way more in the speed because like i don't know i i i smoke pot i i i drank but anything that kind of makes you feel tired i was never really into what's funny is like urtwell it's not funny you and i would have got along so yeah i would have been a great customer oh yeah oh yeah what When I can find like alternatives, I never like in the early days, maybe did coke a couple of times.

That's later. But we found like Dexedream and the diet pills and stuff. Like, oh yeah. I'm familiar. Oh yeah. Love that stuff. Me too. So now you start breaking into houses, right?

Yeah. Yeah, pretty regularly. Cars and houses. Cars and houses. and there was one that was so stupid. So stupid. It was so heavy. Can you tell that story?

Well, is this, okay, well, there's a lot of them are the ones. The one with the pennies. Okay. So this is so retarded. Okay. This is, this shows you the insanity of drugs. I can't remember who I was with now. Some guy looked like he was in the Alman Brothers.

right? I think you guys all look like that. Yeah, and I'm half the people I'm hanging with at this point, I don't even know. So I get this great idea that we need money. I had none, but I know for a fact that my neighbor has this,

the water bottles when they were glass. I think some of them still are. Had one filled full of pennies. And I'm like, well, there's got to be a hundred bucks in there, a couple hundred bucks, maybe,

you know, um, didn't think very much about, like how heavy it would be, right? So I knew how to get in their house, and I'm a genius. I cut a hole in the chain link fence to thinking. You're just providing a trail of evidence? Yeah, providing a trail.

I might as well have just left bread crumbs out and said, this is Gary. I wish I could see your face when you go to grab the penny and you go, yeah, and I'm like, oh, shit. This is really heavy. And I wasn't like in the best shape of the world. So yeah, I get away with it for a little while, but then eventually I get caught. Yeah, but I got, I went and lost a year of my life. You did a year for the pennies?

For the pennies. A water bottle full of pennies. Still county? Still county at this point. So we, yeah, I went to. Is this before the portion incident? Yes. Oh, God, okay.

So, so it was, yeah, I, I did county jail and this is the fire camp and all that. So you were, you're like almost a volunteer fireman while you were in there. Yep, yep. Serving the community, getting exercise outside, and you still screwed it up. Absolutely screwed up, almost immediately. I was in the best shape of my life. I got hurt. So I was able to manipulate that injury.

You got hurt. Is this, how did you get? get hurt. I broke my tailbone. The first time. Yeah, yeah, I broke my tailbone. How? Uh, fucking around. Um, I was walking down a mountain and I was like, pretending I was skiing. I was and I slipped and busted my tailbone. But I was able to like manipulate that into getting into a halfway house, right? Uh, so, you know, the last little bit of my sentence wasn't too bad. Right. I got to, you know, go out once in a while. So you, you get out. Well, fast forward a little bit.

You go back to using, dealing all that. And I forget how the chapter started, but it may, if the chapter started something like, you thought it would be a good idea to get a gun, and I've got an idea how to get one. Yes. And I went, oh, no. I never had a gun.

And I was like, this is how stupid it is. So I didn't need to do anything. You didn't fear for your life? No, no. I had a bunch of money. Yep. I had a bunch of drugs. Yep.

All I had to do was get high and have fun. I'm like, you know, I know a good way to screw this up. Sure. I need a gun. So I'm going to go to an ex-girlfriend's house to where dad's got a gun collection. I'm going to break in while they're there. Some bored. You know, whatever was behind that.

It wasn't like suicide or it was like, I'm going to off myself. No, it was just like, I want a gun. Never rob a gun guy's house No, go on That's really Go on That's really dumb So I get in

You get into the garage Right? I get into the garage On the side door And go into the house And there's a little dog So little dogs Are the absolute best security

Big dogs You can feed them or pet them And like some of them Not all but little dogs They'll just bark and bark and bark and bark and barker This little shit dog Was barking like crazy So I'm like,

okay I got to pull the eject on this one I got to get out of here but hold on just a quick second a little bit of a real Gary shows through here because in your book you say you thought for a second about killing the dog yes I could I could have just like strangled the dog and uh at that point it wouldn't have mattered uh because you could I could probably strangle it and you would have stopped barking uh but there's no way I'm going to kill a dog there's just no way in hell I was going to kill a dog. So it's like, okay, time to go. And, uh, went through the garage door and this is where like you start thinking about higher power and, uh, fate. The, the door I just used to get on the side door for the garage, the door handle falls off. It's so cinematic this, this story. Go on.

So you're stuck in there. And I hide under a Porsche. There's not a lot of room to hide under. No. And her dad has got a gun and pulls me out. But you see the feet, right? I see the feet. This is like in a movie. Yeah.

And then, well, he can see me too. Of course. He knows what's going on. So I get out. I see the feet. I'm like, I'm just waiting to get, I'm like, oh, I guess I'm not getting out of this one. Right. And then I've got a gun in my face.

Did he say, do you recognize you know? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So hey, Gary, now there's a gun on your face. Now there's a gun on my face, and he's mad as hell, and his hand is shaking. And you can see the bullets in the chamber, and I'm like, oh, shit.

And I got my life saved by a cop. You know, a cop, they called the cops, and I didn't get shot in the face. And I'm sure, you know, the cop is like, you know, he's on the Navy pistol team. Like, I could have shot you from 50 yards between the eyes. He probably wanted to. Probably wanted to. and I ended up writing him a letter like later on. During your recovery?

Yeah, during my recovery. That was like a make amends type of thing. Never heard back, but I'm sure he got it. That's what's important. Yeah, yeah. But that was when I went in for a long because I had the prior. Now you've got priors and now I guess it's a hot prowl. So, E&E?

It's a first degree burglary. First degree burglary, yeah. So I guess, You go to county for booking, but you are not going to stay in county. No, no. This was, I go into county until we, you know, sentencing and everything, and then it's off to prison. You get a little bit of time served from your time in county, off to prison. Before you go to prison, you're in county and just talk a little bit about that because

I remember there was a dude in there who gave you advice. That was kind of interesting. Because there's also, there's the. fear of prison, then you're going to all these places, but there's also a weird brotherhood and camaraderie and kind of looking out for each other sometimes. Yeah. And this guy gave you advice, I thought it was very strange, but it worked out. Yeah, maybe I was, I mean, I was 22 at the time, so I looked like a pup.

Yeah. And yeah, somebody took sympathy on me and just like, hey, you're going to go to prison. here's here's some rules you know they're pretty basic rules and I'll paraphrase what's in the book I'll try to keep it you know take your time politically correct but it was well you know don't mess with gambling don't mess with the gays that's not the word he used now hold on a second I think that advice is before you go in to Folsom I'm talking about the guy who said you're going to get a plea deal take it oh yeah okay okay okay sorry sorry so yes um I'm going to get get a plea deal, absolutely take it, don't fight it because if you don't, you will end up doing

a lot more time. So he says, go in there, be cool, and you'll get out. Yep. Just take your time. There's no way fighting this. You're going to prison. Like, and, you know, I knew that. And we were looking at, I got the mid sentence. So I got everything he said I was going to get. What'd you get? I got four years, but you do too. How did you feel when you turned around at that courthouse and saw mom and dad sit there? Horrible is the worst feeling in my life. Looking at your parents in the face

after you get sentenced to four years in prison and they adopted you, they raised you. Did your father look at you? Yeah, it was pretty shameful. They look crushed. they like crushed yeah because they stood by you through all this but it was uh

yeah that was tough man that was uh not not good and uh then getting in that bus and uh you're on the bus for hours and hours hours and like shackled up it's just like what you think is in the movie

is how this is just as bad as you think it is is how this is and when did you find out you were going to go to old Folsom? You're going to the Johnny Cash Folsom. Yeah, I got ahead of that.

Sorry. It was... Because you're not supposed to go there, I don't think. No, no, no. They were doing something they shouldn't have been doing, but it's due to overcrowding. So I stayed, Donovan was a receiving facility in San Diego. I got stuck there for four months.

You usually stay there for like a month. And they farm you out. I was a level two. so not considered even though first degree burglary is considered a violent crime I was not considered violent in the sense

of armed robber or murder or rape or any of the horrible ones those are level three, level four so I find out I'm going to Folsom and there's two Folsoms there's new Folsom at the time it still is. Is that first facility? Is that alcohol? Donovan. So it's east of Elko

it's like an Otai Mesa. No, but El Cajon was a facility you're in, right? So El Cajon was a county jail. Oh, okay. Yeah. El Cajon was, that's the one where there was the breakout. Oh, yeah, you were there for the breakout. Quick little side story here.

So there's the biggest building in El Cajon, California, which is the box, which, I mean, that's what, you know, and it's in the eastern part of San Diego. So it's not, well, probably all the houses are, or a million dollar houses that are now. But at the time, wasn't looked at as the nicest place. in the world. So the toss building was the jail. And apparently the contractor, like cut a little, cut some corners and didn't reinforce the walls with whatever they're supposed to reinforce some concrete or steel or whatever. So it was just stucco and framing. Oh, no. And somebody figured it out. Someone just knocked on it and said, that feels pretty hollow. Yeah, pretty hell. So let's,

let's break off the bottom of our bunk and just punch a hole in it. And you can look it up. It was in the 80s, the big breakout that got it closed. And I was there. You saw, and you saw them escaping. right? Yeah. Did you think, hey, I'm going to get in on that. I thought about it for a second. And I'm like, well, for one, that's a long way down. Yeah.

And I'm like, no, I'm just going to do my thing. That was the first time around. So I'm glad I did that. You know, I'm glad I did. Because they caught everybody, didn't they? They caught everybody. And one of the guys busted his leg because they did the whole tying the sheets together crap.

Yeah, they did because it was up there. Yeah. You know, it was like, I can't remember the exact amount of story. but it was at least five, right? And they caught everybody. Mm-hmm. And then they shut down the jail. The problem was they locked us down after that for,

for two weeks and they weren't feeding us all the time. So what does lockdown really mean? Locked down is you are in your cell. You don't get out. With one celly? No, with like six. So you're there with six guys for weeks being fed through the bars? There's a bar.

One toilet. Supervised shower like one, I think we got two, right? supervised shepherds. Oh, it's just rank. It was rank. So we were, I was like, I remember eating ketchup packets because that's all I had to eat. And we had Uno. You just played Uno? Just played Uno. And had one book, I think one book between it, us. It was like, it was terrible. It was terrible. At least it wasn't magic. You know, it, right? It could always be worse. But yeah, so, uh, the, on the prison side, yeah, uh, go to Folsom and we find out that, uh, they're doing this transition thing.

So they're turning old Folsom into a level two. And they're removing all the level four guys and they're putting them up to Pelican Bay. And level four guys are the hardcore. They're murderers, rapists. And they're going to throw you pups in with them. Worse to the worst. And they did.

And they did. Yeah. So we had level twos in with level fours, which is you're just not supposed to do that. Because the last thing a guy with a life sentence wants to hear is, is the stories from a guy who's going to get out in a couple of years. That's a recipe for disaster. Well, you're walking in,

shackles, chains, and you've got your long hair. Yeah. And I guess, is that your first prison taunt? Oh, yeah.

This is just like movies, man. In Donovan, never really got any shit. I think everybody in the receiving part is just kind of like, hints of needles waiting to figure out what you're going to go. so and it's way more supervised um it's like max max max there because because you are mixing in all the levels because but it's it's you know you spend most of your time in yourself it's not a ton of

yard time uh and i never spent much time in the yard but yeah when i walk into fulsome got my beautiful long blonde hair and uh shows you how much i've aged and uh yeah guy goes uh hey goldilocks you want my sack lunch I'm like I need to cut my hair you know and it was right when I walked so I knew it was to me

by the way like I'm of course they were they had us in a line and then we're feeding them and like there's this big just wall of cells how you're terrified

and now you go up to 11 yeah yeah 12 like beyond terrified and like I don't know what sack lunch is but it doesn't stop but it doesn't sell

It's balls. It's your balls. No, yeah. Okay. So now you're going through the rules that you're, that someone told you, here you're,

you go, you go, you go, a gladiator school, as he called it. Yep. Oh God. Which he was.

Uh, so now you're going through the rules. Right. And you got to get rid of the hair. Got to get rid of the hair. Uh, and what are some of the rules you're thinking as your, as you're,

as you're, as you're, so the rules I was told, what I was referring to earlier are do not gamble. Do not mess with gays. No problem. I, I'm no interest in those.

Just be polite and leave a look. Do not do drugs. Do not mess with any drugs. And at that point in my life, I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to mess with any drugs. I had already decided like, if I survived this, I'm done. I cannot do this. And then do not snitch no matter what.

And if you're going to fight, fight. You have to fight. You can't back down from a fight. Right. Don't start trouble. Don't start trouble, but don't take it. But don't take it. Yep.

But the most important one of them all is don't snitch. Or you will die. Bobby. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't mean to drag it out, but it's fascinating. It's okay.

So sack lunch. How do you get it? You have to get your hair cut in like 30 yards. You have 30 yards to solve this problem. Immediately. It was for a pack of smokes. It was a terrible haircut, but it did the job. It's like.

Did the guard help you? Yeah, yeah. Help you grab scissors or something? Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, I mean, they, there is some humanity in there, right? Like, they see this little pup and it's like, this guy's going to get shredded in here. So that's, that's, that's my best guess.

But I got, I got my haircut. I got help. Guards aren't always helpful, though, okay? Just keep that in mind. They're humans. So there's some good ones and there's some. pieces of crap in there. And I spend the next,

I'm behind the wall for a good year, right? So I'm... Well, one of the rules was, don't go to the yard, don't go to the gym. Yeah, yeah, which I did not do. But there were sometimes that you had to get away from your first cellmate because he, I mean, when you land in the room with him,

how does that go down? Oh, it's bad. It's bad. With Kyle? Yeah, yeah. he's double murderer he's a piece of crap what he looked like um he was uh just a like a kind of a flabby but big white dude uh it's um brown hair little grayish uh but he was not old it was not that old i'm just trying to see yeah how imposing he is for he's bigger than me he's bigger than

me for sure so how has that first meeting go uh scared to death you know and he's he just he just just gives me the rules and pretty much tells me, you know, I don't want to hear from you. You know, he has his TV. And I'm like, well, maybe I could just wait this one out. But it just it didn't work out. Well, he didn't like, he's a level four of this guy. He's a level four. And he doesn't want to hear about you getting out in two. Nope. Nope. So I was really good at being quiet when I needed to be. What were you doing to kill time? To kill, mostly reading books. Because there was another rule about staying same, wasn't there? Yeah.

What was that? Find a routine. Yes, fine. Okay, yes. Stay to it. So the thing about the best advice I heard is, and like people do this in prison all the time, so I didn't invent it. This is just passed down is find a routine.

You get up at the same time. You kind of do the same things every day. And what it does is it helps you feel accomplished because we as humans need to feel some accomplishment. So I found a little routine that worked in behind the wall and then when I went on. And it really helps the time go faster. It keeps you busy so you're not sitting there. You need to have that routine so you're not sitting there just tripping all the time. You talk about how Kyle was like mentally torturing you this whole time? What was he doing? Because he wasn't physically abusing you. No, he was just always.

What was he? Because you write about how it was just kind. that he was just always just messing with you always messing with my head always um he would uh he would always question uh like everything i was doing like what are you reading what's your probably he would never let me have peace right because i would try to mind my own business and stay there and he'd always try to start some weird conversation that would go to a weird place and ask me weird questions and then bring up like his crimes, you know, and what he did. And you knew he was just trying to torture you. Yep, trying to fuck with me all the time.

And then he'd be nice a little while and then it would flip, you know. But you bring up the pruno, right? We can talk about when I don't want to get too far ahead, but. No, I know when we're going to take our break. Oh, yeah. So he was making some pruno and hiding. it and he was gone and the guard is the guards are coming in to do uh to do an inspection and i'm i'm there because i don't go out very much right so i dumped it you dumped his peruno yep did you know

that decision you did you how long what you're doing you know you're going to have to deal with this yeah but you figure what you're saving him or are you like i'm going to this is going to go sideways. This is this at my decision making at the time was not really even a cover it was cover both of our asses right but it was because you were going yeah because I'm there so I'm going to get caught with it and he's the cellmate so he's going to get busted too and there's all this stuff going through my head where oh you know you think about the snitching thing right it's going to make me either way look like a snitch and you're watching them toss cells getting closer as you're doing this so I'm like, I'm going to dump this stuff.

And Kyle, by the way, is out in the yard, lifting weights. Yeah, lifting weights. Lift and weights. So I got rid of it and it's gone by the time the guard there, I saved his ass. Well, his ass. Yeah. His ass. Wasn't exactly grateful about that at all.

And wanted me to repay whatever it was owed, whatever that value of that pruno was. and did not let me forget it ever. He wanted you to put money in his account, right? Money on his books. Money on his books. 20 bucks for the Pruno. I won it. You did it.

Yep. And thought it was good. And I don't know how soon after that, but he said, I need 20 bucks. Yeah, it just became the, you know, I need 20 more. And then once you capitulate a little bit, you know, that's just the way it is. And that's, that's, this is part of like, don't be a bitch. That's right. Right.

This is part of don't be a bitch. And I, I should have said, fuck you, you know, at that point and probably fought at that point. Well, you didn't give him 20 more, right? No. No. And it got worse. It gets worse.

And, um, you get back to the cell and he's going through your stuff. Yep. What's he doing? It's going through moms, my letters. It's going through my letters. And this whole time parents are supporting you. They're putting money on your books. You're covered.

You have support from the family. This guy's got nothing. He hates you. He hates everything about me. He hates the books I read. I mean, like he gave me shit for books I read. He wanted you to fight. Oh, he's been trying to taunt me to fight the whole time.

And, well, he finally got what he wanted. So he's going through my letters. My parents and I, by the way, are contacting and they're, you know, they're sending me like little care packages and making sure I'm okay. They're worried to death because they know I'm in this fulsome prison. So they're trying to work outside with a couple of other people trying to figure out what the fuck's going on, right? To no avail, by the way. Right. And, yeah, he's like, I like your mom's handwriting.

I like your mom's handwriting. I think I want to write your mom and I just fucking lost my shit. Absolutely lost my shit. He demands you to tell your mom to start writing him as well. And now you feel it.

You feel, all men feel this. Things go quiet. You hear the boom, boom in your ears and you're not going to take it anymore. No. To hell with that, whatever, happens after this. Like this is and it had been building up like you said like just with the constant like poking and some of it would just you know in isolation it wouldn't be that bad but when you're living

think of the worst roommate you've ever had but he's also a murderer. Right. That's what it is. A guy who like steals your food or you know like or I don't want to get too crass in there. just when you're in a cell with somebody and they're going to the bad it's just the worst it's the worst and uh so you the blood's in your ears and everything's going and it's going to go down so we're going to take a quick break yeah we'll find out how you handled it okay you're right back it's it's the standoff now okay not going to take anymore he's going mama's not going to write him a letter right no no over my dead body so and that's where where I was at, had a little walkman.

Yep. Yep. Because you were allowed, like, believe it or not, even in Max prison, you can have a TV, you can have a Walkman, you know. You were getting comics and stuff. Yeah, you can get comics and books and cigarettes and stuff. They didn't allow people to smoke in prison anymore. I don't know.

That sounds terrible. I don't know why they would do that. I don't know. Smoke. For the safety of the girls. guards. Oh, God. So, yeah, I go hysterically off on that. So it's not

like some heroic moment, you know, Avengers Assemble. It wasn't? No, no, it was. This was fight or flight panic. Fighter flight, panic, spazzy fighting. I think Ralphine a Christmas story, you know, like.

To toe to toe, could you take this guy? I mean, I did. Well, how did you? I mean, I had, well, I, I had a walkman in my hand and I bashed his face in. So. It's a very Gen X, with the Sony products, very Gen X. Well, it was what was in my hand at the time. You bashed his face in.

A bashed his face in. And bashed it in pretty good. And he go down? Yeah, he went down. Down and out. Down and out. Blood everywhere. And I'm like,

Like, I'm going to the hole. I was just going to ask, the adrenaline comes down and you know you're going to the hole. I'm screwed. I'm going to the hole. I'm going to get more time. Just what he wanted. Yep. And that didn't happen, which is insane, right?

So I did a little time, but as far as getting extra time added to my sentence, doesn't happen. Why not? Doesn't happen. Why not the hole? Where'd you go? It's a missed. it's a, well, it's a mystery. Why? Because my biggest concern at the time was it's, uh, am I, they going to think I snitched? That was, that was my biggest concern. Um,

so, uh, my guess is a, the guards knew what was going on or another, and I never knew the answer to this at all, but it just kind of got a new cellmate, you know, got a new cellmate, you know, got a new A little crazy still, but not as... But not violent. Not messing with you. Yeah. Did you ever run into that guy again? No.

Never did. It probably was, someone was like, we gotta get these tier twos out of here, man. No, and he was supposed to go to Pelican Bay anyway. Like, he was, like, all the level fours were supposed to go to Pelican Bay. Right. They're still kind of going through that transition. Yeah. So you get placed with a new cellmate and he's tier two, right?

Yeah. Okay. So are you able to relax? relax a little bit and then um you know i took a printing class in there and i never really went to the yard or did anything after that and then it was finally over uh when i went to uh the minimum security part of well hang on a second okay he this guy was a big part of you recovery i'm getting way ahead of myself so i mean who was he uh he's violent what was he what was he like uh he was actually a really like a nice guy he was a nice guy there are nice guys in there believe

of course they're on I believe it yeah I mean just made a bunch of mistakes in his life like I did they only put the ones that get caught in there and uh me needing to get out of the of the of the cell like and I didn't really want to go to church I tried it a couple times well really didn't do it where church come from what why you were you even thinking about church oh I I needed to get out of the cell for one but I also needed to not come back here. Like, well, and I was, didn't he tell you? Yes.

Here are, here are some things you can do to make this go a little easier for yourself. Two options, right? Church and meetings. Yep. So what happens? Church doesn't work for me. And he was a church. He was a religious guy?

Yeah, yeah. He was a religious, religious guy. And I started going to the meetings. And it wasn't like. And this is AA. Yeah, this is AA. They did do NA ones in there, but I just gravitated to the AA. And the reason, and it's the same reason I gravitated to it outside is there's just more time in AA.

You could still, the principles are still the same. People are talking about alcohol. I could just, I could just apply it to drugs and it's fine. So it starts kicking in. I go to these meetings. And it kicks in for the first time, right? Because you've been through crash, you've been through meetings. it didn't take you it didn't take now it finally starts to take because you didn't go to those

meetings initially for any other reason than to just make it easier inside right or you said i'm going to get clean now i'm going to share it was just self-preservation self-preservation i wish it was something bigger than that but it started that's when it started kicking in like oh and you know when you're in the meeting and you're hearing people tell the stories and like half the people in those meetings were there just to get out of their cell. But the guy leading the meeting, you know, from H&I hospitals and institutions from AA, they're there because they're serious, right? And especially to volunteer, it takes a special kind of person to volunteer for H&I

to want to go inside a prison. Takes a very good person to do that better than I am. Yeah. When did it click? What was the conversation? What was going around the circle? When suddenly switched. It started clicking, it was just through time,

but just hearing over and over again that life can get better, like, it's not necessarily over. You know, I don't know if I fully believed it at the time, but it started clicking really just over time. And it stayed with me. I'm not going to say I was like ready to be a sober warrior at that point. But I had decided, like I told you earlier on, like, I do not want to come back here.

This is horrifying. So the best way to describe prison is, um, uh, it is really, it is boredom, uh, occasionally interrupted by moments of terror.

Just complete terror. But there's always an underlying, like you sleep with one eye open. You got to worry about absolutely everything. If somebody gives you a dirty look in there, it means something. And that's probably going to, You know, because you are trapped with these people.

And that will probably come into a head at some point. And that's always rolling around in the back of your head. But once again, some people looking out for you always have a routine so you don't go crazy. And then this new cellmate says, you need a plan. You need a plan. What does he mean by that? You need a plan for life. Like you can't just get out and think everything's going to be okay.

and this is something like a father would tell a kid, right? You need to have a plan. What's your plan? And my plan was really simple. To get sober, to get a job and then implement, I don't think I verbally said this, but the, or implement the routine in life. So that routine I was learning in prison,

I actually applied it afterwards. You did. It was really fucking helpful. It was really helpful. What kind of routine was it? It was just the day to day that you carried over. This carried on from when I went on to the minimum security. Right.

You got moved finally. Yeah, it moved finally. And in minimum security, I was doing a lot of working out. I was either playing racquetball because we had a handball. We had this big track you can walk or run laps on. And I also had a job. I had this crazy job that taught me how to work. And this is where the rehabilitation of prison actually worked on one person.

So I had this gig at procurement in the procurement office. What does that mean? Basically, we did all the purchasing for the, the prison, particularly in my area was just writing up all the drug orders, which is funny. Right. You're dealing drugs again? So I'm writing up all the drug orders because the new Folsom wing had a psychiatric wing. Sure.

So I was doing all the drug orders for them. And I worked for a lady. I should say a real name. No, no, no. It's funny. She always wore purple. She always wore freaking purple. And I was.

was her little boy toy, by the way. Like she's like, oops, I dropped something. You know, okay. Yeah, stuff like that. I used to be young and pretty.

But yeah, it was, it was get up, get up 5.30 in the morning, get my breakfast, either walk a lap before I go to work, or walk two laps before I go to work, go to work,

come back, go play some racquetball or handball with the guys. And it was just do that every day. Were you behaving? at your job and all that? You were. Getting along with everybody. Getting along with everybody.

Are you counting down the days now? Counting down the days. They're still long. I mean, you know, there's still like a year out. This is why you're so good at counting George Martin's days. Uh-huh, yeah. You're counting days. That's what you do. I do. That's what I do. I keep track, George. So, yeah.

What are the last few days like? Isn't it, you know, 60, 59, 50? I mean, is it torture? It's torture, dude. It's absolute torture. And the anxiety of, am I going to fuck up again? Right. Am I really getting out? Yeah.

Is something, is there going to... What's going to happen? What's going to happen? You know, that, that really starts messing with you towards the end. I bet it does. Like, what if some charge is found, you know, because, I didn't get caught for everything I did. Of course not.

Yeah. 8, 7, 6. Parents are still supporting you? Parents are still supporting me. I'm on my routine. I'm starting to, like, lose it a little bit towards the end, though. I'm starting to, you know, way. And just anxiety, just pure anxiety.

How did you cope? Not well. I, uh, I, I, I didn't sleep very much, uh, but I tried to work out more. So, and by workout, I mean, just exercise, do some sort of like, uh, you know, but it was obsessive, right? It got really obsessive. But it was like, you know, running laps or, or playing racquetball or playing it by myself. So this is a very different facility than you're coming from.

It had to feel like vacation. It did. Like we'd, yeah, there was like a little garden where we grew chili peppers. We'd sit out and tan. It's near Sacramento. It's right near Folsom Lake. You were supposed to be there the whole time. Yes.

I was not supposed to be behind the wall at all, ever. Or maybe for a couple weeks. Did you run into other tier twos at, at, most of the mold? Yeah. They were like, what the hell? That was terrible. That sucked. But for the, for the level twos, I had a usually had more time than they did.

So they were all getting out before me. Yeah. Kind of sucked. But watching them, hey, have fun, buddy. But yeah, like we did. But you weren't a dick about it. You already saw what, how that works. No, no, not at all.

Just leave them alone. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then we, uh, yeah, I mean, we'd have this thing called spreads where we'd make a bunch of food. We'd steal some food out of the kitchen or the cook would just give us some food. And we'd make these big things of ramen and chop every piece of meat we could figure out. And it was just this gobbledy gook of stew with top ramen that we, and that was our party night.

We watched football. And yeah, it was kind of smoke cigarettes. And, you know. When you heard like Bola Brown at Kings Landing, you're like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. A ball of around. Yeah.

Singer stew. Yeah. So the day finally comes. Day finally comes. And my parents picked me up. And they, so I go out the main gate of Folsom. There was a beat I liked in your book about the guard who came to get you because he was the same guard. That badass guard who let you in.

Yeah. He was still there. Yep. Little smiling in his eyes. Yeah. You did it, kid. Yeah. You made it.

You made it. You made it. and it was I wish I could bottle like the feeling I had that day because I wanted for nothing. No material thing had any value to me. It was it was pure freedom. So that was the first day I understood what like liberty and freedom is. It's something I completely took for granted and never thought about as a kid. How soon did he kick in?

Like the minute I walked out and just open. open sky, no walls. Sky, no walls. My mom and dad smiling to see me. And, uh, you know, you just, you don't have to sign very much paperwork. You just sign a couple of things and get your stuff back. Got my, got my clothes back that I went in on. And I'm like, wow, I actually lost weight in here.

I'm, you know, so, uh, yeah, you weren't doing well for a while in there. No, no, I was not not doing well. And I got out pretty much in shape. But yeah, so back to that feeling of gratitude, just pure gratitude of like, I am free. My life isn't over because I was convinced for the longest time, even before I went into prison, we talked about it earlier, that my life was just over. Sure. Just it's done.

Like we're going to play it out. It's going to be a sad, pathetic ending. And I'm like, wow, I have a chance to do this. And I don't want for a bunch. I don't have any lofty goals. Just one, don't go back in there. Don't go back in. Don't go back in.

Yeah. So I had the best meal in my life, which was, you know, an omelette at Denny's. Denny's, I mean, you're home. It's America. Greatest food, greatest meal I've ever had. And, yeah. But what's the conversation like at that breakfast? Are we laughing?

We're crying. We're laughing. We're talking about just what's ahead. You know, my dad was not like a real sentimental guy. So we were just like, yeah, we talk about the Chargers and Padres and how crappy they were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because it's right before they went for their first Super Bowl.

Oh, that's right early 90s. Yeah, but there were still like Bobby Ross had come around and they've been to the playoffs for the first time in a long time. So we had stuff to talk about, but it was really light, right? And, you know, they were pretty a matter of factly like you got to find a job. you can't like stay with us forever. I'm like, okay, fair. No talking back, no attitude. Nope.

Just I was being a good kid, right? And with a new lease on life and a new attitude towards life. And waking up every morning was freaking great. I could just, and I do things like, just take a walk and ride my bike to the beach, you know, in between looking for a job. But yeah, I didn't need any money. didn't need any of that stuff. I had a place to stay, but eventually I would,

I would need that money. Were you craving drugs? No. Booze, anything? No, started going to meetings immediately. You did? Yeah, immediately. There was no, none of that and wasn't seeking out my old friends.

That's, that's usually what gets any addict in trouble, especially after they get out of a rehab or anything. It's, that's what I got in trouble is like I immediately sought out my old friends. which means let's party. I did not. I didn't let anybody know I was back,

didn't know if anybody knew I was back or gone or anything, and just kind of did my own thing, hung out with my parents, and eventually contacted a couple of friends, but I knew who were outside of the, like an old childhood friend, and he eventually gave me a job. Well, before that,

you said don't run into old friends, but you did. I did. What happened? It was sad. But I, I, I'm also talking about that meeting. Oh, okay. People from the neighborhood were there. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. That was kind of surprising to, when we ran into each other. What happened? Who was there? I'm trying not to use, I had a couple of older friends. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Seeing ball sack there.

So these are old guys, you part, you part, with drugs. It was a shock, but I'm sure they were just a shock, see me. Were you frightened a little bit? Like, oh, no, relapse, here we go. At that meeting,

yeah, that's always, I mean, the fear is always in there. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. But it was also, now that I look back on it, a little inspiring to see some of the old, of course. Old people come through

and make it. And we, you know, there's some I ended up staying friends with forever, you know, and to this day. Some who didn't make it. But yeah, like seeing that, that was like, I guess the first test, I guess, you know. And one of those, one of those guys became your first sponsor? Yeah. Did you know about sponsorship at that time? I did.

I just never like really took it seriously, right? Eventually you learn how important it is. And then you learn how absolutely necessary. it is. So he was clean a while. Tell me about that conversation. It was, I mean,

he knew what I've been through, right? And then, like, more than anybody else. I honestly don't know if it was the best, the best choice for sponsor,

to be honest with you. Maybe not. Maybe not. But, it's, I just didn't want to go back. It was, it was really simple.

You know, I was, I, I didn't want to die. I didn't want to die. So he asked you to make a commitment. Mm-hmm. And you agreed to it.

Yes. You just keep your word? To my commitments of... To him. I mean, I know how it works. You're there for each other. Yes. Take up the phone.

You show up. You do the work. You come back tomorrow. You call. Did you do all that stuff? I did all that stuff in the beginning. and I did it when I relapsed too. The thing,

and like I don't want to get ahead with the relapse, but there's a commitment you need to make that. I'm just trying to stress what a big decision it is. Once you take on, become a sponsie. It's a big deal. It is. Usually it's 90 meetings and 90 days. And you have to write gratitude lists.

Like both sponsors maybe do it. One was way more hardcore than the other. So you have to do a ton of homework. You have to meet. You have to basically do your own book study. So we sit down and we go over chapters of the book. And this is on top of going to meetings that are book, because there are book specific meetings.

Yep. Where you just go through the chapters. Yep. And they're now like working the steps and doing the work. in the steps and it's not just once. So I thought it was just once you did the steps. Now you just recycle and keep going through and through until it really gets ingrained. Well, step four is never over, is it?

Never over. That's inventory. Yes, the personal inventory and we're always making new mistakes, right? And it's work that's never done. That's a very important step. That self-awareness. Yeah. So you work in the program, things are going good, you get a job at the warehouse.

At the warehouse. How's that first day feel? It's crazy. The warehouse is what, music, videos. That's a West Coast. I'm from New York. I had never heard of it. Okay.

So, yeah, the warehouse is, yeah, it's a record store. That's also a video store. This is perfect for you. Because you're a pop culture junkie. going in, right? Yes. So are you like, this is, this is perfect. It's heaven.

Yeah. It's absolute heaven. And I've always wanted, well, I've worked at the warehouse before in the past. Oh, you did? I did, but for like, I never worked anywhere long because I was a drug addict. So this was like, well, now that I know how to have this thing called a work ethic from prison, I learned that from prison. Yeah.

Going to getting up five in the morning every day, going to work. It was, it was amazing working there. It was a great, who cares? It was enough. Your parents had to be so proud that you were going in every day. I think they were probably always waiting for. Always waiting. Always waiting.

And it didn't happen. Like I went to work, took extra shifts, had tons of fun, met a bunch of friends there, had some rough times, you know. Like, there's still the adapting I had to get used to. Yeah, there is that story. Yeah. So the altercation. Yeah, I just some old guy and I got into it and well tease it out he walks in he's waving the thing around he's waving a video around right and I he's given me a bunch of attitude like what?

It was over a return and it was late or something it was some violation I whatever and once he started getting disrespectful to me. and he was angry at me. Right. I have the, the, the prison defense mechanism comes in, so I feel like I'm being disrespected. So this is like,

you know, still early on. This took me years to get rid of this stuff. So I was, I wasn't, it wasn't like I was floating on cloud nine the whole time I was out. I was,

there was, there's certain things that would, you know, I guess trigger, is a lack of a better word, uh, trigger the defense mechanisms from prison. Uh,

I definitely had, I had trouble sleeping for, if you want to call it PTSD, sure, I mean, for a decade, I had trouble sleeping. No, it is PTSD. It's not,

it is PTSD. That's a thing that X-Cons have. You come out of war, you come out of prison, you have PTSD. And you did. And so you felt you're disrespected. Yep.

What happened with the guy? I, I shouted him down and I had to get, I was, I got written up. And my friend, had to, you know, the friend who gave me the job. You didn't put hands on, right?

No, no, no hands on. But we were just yelling. We were yelling at each other. Pretty good. This is terrible customer service. It's horrible customer service. Because like, it's retail. Customers come in and yell.

You just go, yes, sir, I will, it was really easy. All as I had to do was, who cares. Just give him the tape. Just give him what he wanted and walk away. But I took it as a personal. So I get written up and, you know, But I love the conversation you have with Don in the back room. Yeah.

Because he asked you what happened, but it wasn't a casual thing because he's like, no, seriously, what's going on? Yeah, yeah. It wasn't like what happened with the situation. It's like what's going. It was like an actual caring. Because he's in the program. Mm-hmm.

And, yeah. What did you say? Oh, I just told him exactly that I felt disrespected and just everything just clicked, you know, my defense mechanism. I just lost my shit, you know, and it's just, and, uh, I, it was, it was understood, but it was also said that like, you, this cannot go on. Like, got a, did you get fired? Uh, no, I got written up. Okay. I got written up, which was, I should have brought, I should have been fired. Uh, maybe. I don't know. Uh, he was going to fire me. He wasn't going to know, but like,

I felt terrible. I have you did it again, maybe. And the thing is, like, later on, like, me and that old guy got along famously after that. Of course. Of course. So I like, I just treated them nice. Prison rules are actual. Yeah. Yeah.

So and then he, we actually got to the point where like he'd come over and we chit chat for 20, 30 minutes while he's at. So it's like that's the cool part of the story is, uh, we became like buds after that. Mutual respect. Yeah.

And like, it was way down the line. So I'm like, you know what? I'm really sorry I yelled at you that day. I was having a bad. day. He's like, don't worry. Of course. He was a sweet, sweet old guy. So yeah, it was, but that's, that's where I also recognized like, this might not be that easy. Like, it was like,

you know, once you get past your cloud nine and your, your, your, your, your, your, your, you're, you know, there's, there's the work that has to be done. And, uh, I was, I was super angry, like, and resentful. Um, I, um, I, Are you feeling the calling to go back to drinking or drugs? Not at that time, but that eventually does come. But I think that's just being fresh, being out of prison, right? And you just, you know, you got your guard up all the time. Of course.

You don't need to have your guard up. Plus, you know, prison rules aren't real life rules. So if somebody disrespects you, you don't like punch them in the face. Right. You know, it's simple stuff like that. So what happened next after warehouse? After warehouse? Well, okay, so I meet first wife.

Meet the first wife. Meet the first wife. Yeah. And? So when you meet somebody in recovery, right? She was in the program. She was in the program. It's cool.

Mm-hmm. But you understand each other? Yeah, understand each other on that level, but you also have to have, like, more in common beyond that. And we never really did. So. When did the fight start in a while? I mean, it was, it, it, it was just later on, and it was, it wasn't like a ton of them, you know, it was just,

I always, she, I don't want it, she's a nice person. So, I don't want to, yeah. She's a nice person. There's always two sides to the story. Yeah, and she had to put up with me, right? And long story short, I was like, I was, I was still kind of a magpie. I was still collecting stuff that she didn't like. Like what comics and comics?

Yeah, she just didn't like the comics and toy collecting, like at all. And, yeah, yeah. And it just wasn't going to work out. You guys are not getting along. Not getting along. um dad gets sick dad gets sick dad um gets cancer and uh we kind of we kind of like everything is kind of kind of put to the side we're dealing with dad's cancer how are you guys dealing with it um how his mom taking it mom's being a caregiver and trying to be the strong caregiver and at the time we i you know

we thought there's a possibility he could fight it off, right? But moms, my mom had just been a caregiver for her mom who died. And then she had to be immediately a caregiver for my dad. Long story short on this one, he got colon cancer. It went away, full remission. And then it comes back immediately and it's, he's got weeks to live, weeks to live, gets into his stomach and all this. And we have a last, our last, like, conversation where he's like not just on morphine.

Yep. Our last real conversation. He sits me down. He's in the hospital. And the last thing he wants to talk to me about is my relationship and my wife. Because he sensed it a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

That it's, that you're not happy, it's not working. So what did he tell you? Life is too short to be, uh, to be with somebody you're not happy with, right? And, you know, you deserve happiness. And, and we were like really tight. And we rarely talked about like relationships. So it was such a, it was like, why is he bringing this up? But he was right.

He was right. And again, no fault of hers, right? I was a massive pain in the ass too. Of course. Yeah. And, uh, so, dad passes away and that is just a huge change in my life that's like an anchor gone and at that point i see that like as a as like you know what it's just i need it i need to change

life um i don't even know if it's the best decision in the world or not and um i've reconnected with some friends including melissa and because you knew melissa from back in the day yeah i've No, Melissa, my wife, Melissa, I've known for 41 years. So she was at that Crystal Palace. She was partying there. So she's seen it all. She's seen it all. So we're friends.

Reconnected through classmates.com. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we, we, I get a divorce. Yeah. And move to San Francisco, move away from, never thought I'd leave San Diego. I love San Diego. move up to San Francisco.

What attracted you to San Francisco? It was just, back then it was cool, and I needed a change. I just needed a change of scenery. I didn't want to leave the state of California, and I didn't want to live in L.A. So San Francisco was the next best choice. Well, I mean, you were weird in San Diego, in San Francisco, you're home. Everybody's weird. Yeah, everybody's, that's part of it.

You know, it's certainly changed for San Diego now, but San Diego back then, it was pretty, pretty much a normal town. And San Francisco back then was a different city than it is now. But yeah, I was up there and, you know, I just, I was selling auto parts. So I went from from working at the warehouse to selling auto parts. And I thought the reason I bring that up is I like, well, this is my life now. And I'm totally happy with it. Like I like this job.

I never, when you, when you have realistic expectations of, well, I was going to go nowhere in life and die, but now I've got this job, because I had no skills. When I walked out of prison, one of my biggest fears is I have no skills. Yes, you did. Yes, you did.

Well, I mean, you were organized, you learned a lot in prison. So auto parts, but you're still collecting comics and doing your passion. Yeah, still doing all that stuff, right? And this is cool with it? Yeah, yeah, like totally cool with it.

Oh, yeah. She has to be. No, I know. She's as much of a collector as I am. So there, go. So yeah, I got the normal job and I'm super happy with it. I'm like, if this is the job I work at the rest of my life, I'm totally cool. Like it makes enough money. I like it enough. But I always kept on like finding something more, right? That's when the comic shop comes up.

We're in San, I'm in San Francisco. And this is before Melissa and I are married. We, are you living together? Yeah, we were living together. And like within a year, I, I'm I bought the comic story. It just landed in my lap. But how did you make that decision? It was really quick and probably not smart. I mean, just suddenly it's available?

You have the money? Well, I'm working at Oakland, Accura. Okay. And I hate working in Oakland. Like, I hate Oakland.

Like, I hate Oakland. I like it a lot. So, and hate going over that Bay Bridge every day. So I'm looking for something. And I'm out lunch and I open the paper. And there is an ad for some comics for sale.

I answer the ad because I'm like, well, I'm going to buy this big chunk of comics. It was affordable. And I'm going to save it for when I open a store someday in retirement. So that was my plan. When you retire, when you retire, when I retire, when I retire. Okay. So when I'm making this deal with the guy, the guy's all well. I mean, there's a comic shop for sale right now.

You want to buy it. And it's just so happened to be the shop I shopped at, the comic outpost. So it was my comic store. Wow. I'm like, I'll just talk to the guy. I never thought any of this would go down. We talk, we agree on a price, we go to a pizza place, make a handshake deal. You guys had the money?

I had the money. Okay. Had the money. I post, yeah, post-divorce, made a lot of money off the condo. We bought a condo for like next to nothing and the housing market went crazy. Yeah. So the money was there. Money was there.

Okay. So I bought the store and, uh, and, uh, it was just like that. It was within two weeks. I had to quick read, half read, um, small business for dummies. And then, uh, I was owning a comic store, which would, was kind of was like a lifelong dream. Did you, do you feel like this is a dream come true? Yes.

At first. Yeah. And, uh, it always was. It was always a really fun job. But then, you. You know, I always said to myself, if this thing becomes a job, like if it starts feeling like work, I'm out.

And it didn't for a long time. Well, you got into the comic books as an entrepreneur at a very good time in our culture. Very good time. Very lucky. Because this is, MCU is getting hot, right? Spider-Man's rebooted and it's good.

Yeah, so, right. Nolan is reboots Batman and it's great. It's all, yeah, it's kind of weird. how the timing worked out. So I took it over in 2003. Kind of weird. You're the luckiest dude. I know.

Yeah. X-Men had come out in 99. Spider-Man. Spider-Man 2 came out the year before I opened my store. Right. And it's, yeah, we're just a couple of years before Nolan starting Batman and the MCU starting. And, you know, in the meantime, there was like, Sin City came out.

And, you know, hell boy. And it's just creeping up. doing better and better. When I got there, it was still like recovering from post-9-11, post-90s stuff. Yeah, not a lot of it.

It was very specific. Batman Hush was the best-selling comic. Oof. So it was out right when I started my store. And then it just started revving up. The competition between Marvel and DC got a lot more serious. That's good for you. Oh,

it was great. In the beginning, it was absolutely great. And it was kind of a renaissance time for comic books, for independent books. two. And it was kind of the last hurrah of American comics now that I look back on it. It was kind of sad.

It was. But the storytelling was getting much better. The art was getting better. The comic book sales were going up. What were the people like coming in and out? It was Normies. So like we got, it was a, Hollywood was bringing in a lot of normies. But what helped was the comic books were story driven.

So we still had great writers. like Mark Miller, who were out there working with either Wild Storm in the early days, but then they, like, Marvel plucked him. And, you know, Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, and Grant Morrison, you know, all these old Judge Dread people coming in and writing America comics and kind of turning it on there, turning it upside down. You won Best of the Bay. I did in 2009.

Why? How did you differentiate yourself? I, oh, so my, this San Francisco is very San Francisco, right? So, most of the comic shops are going to be, um, independent book oriented, you know, because it's such a hippy, independent town. I'm like, I am going to be the Normie superhero family store. Because that's the one thing that isn't here. Weren't you drawing your own comics back in the day?

Oh, God. Yeah. I don't know. Yes, I was. Art school. I drew um we did what kind of became the precursor of the book uh we did a comic called horror show and I did another comic superhero comic book people don't know that you write and draw no they don't and I and I'm going to keep it that way well not anymore but uh yes not anymore yeah I did a

superhero comic book that I might revisit like after YouTube. But yeah, I was drawing and writing just for fun. Like no expectations and I don't consider myself anything. And the store is growing and then you get a certificate for video production. Yeah. So when we went Best of the Bay in 2009, but this is like 2008, 2009. Yeah. Economy's going to crap.

So the store is breaking even. Oh, right. Yeah, it's just breaking even. So I need, I'm like, I'm going to, I want to do something fun, possibly to make some more money. I don't want to, but we need to like figure this out. So I take a video intensive course. It's called a new media intensive course or digital video intensive at San Francisco State University. It was four months, 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week.

Wow. And it's like basically film school with no theory put into four months. months. That sounds awesome. It was great. Great. First day, we had cameras in our hands. Second day, we're editing. We learned how to light a scene. We learn how to write a script, you know. This comes in Andy. We used a Matlock script and I'll never forget. Yeah. And yeah, it was people who all worked in the industry. And it's all practical. It was all practical. So by the end, all of us had shot like four little short films. And how did this apply to the comic book store? Um, we were able to, I was able to like, shoot podcasts, do podcasts, do, do ads.

Uh, but it was always going to be like, I want to do a podcast and I want to do some kind of live show. And I was thinking, we live streamed, uh, God, what was, what did Joe Rogan used to use to live stream on? U stream. We used Ustream. The tiniest window. The tiniest window. So we live streamed in our store way back when, uh, during free comic day and 24-hour combook day where people were you you make a comic in 24 hours so the store starts doing good again and you kind of become ah shit you come become become the mayor mayor of the nerds and um ego gary comes back yeah big time all goes to my head why what happened um stopped going to meetings

why uh you were cured i was cured no i was i mean i mean what do you what's your And what is my rationalization? I was too busy. You're too busy for me. Oh. Too busy. You know how that goes. Yeah. And what's the wife thinking? Doesn't, she's busy too? So she doesn't know you're missing meetings or doesn't necessarily know she's like we both we had the two kids, right? So you're learning to get pretty good at lying at this point. Yeah, very good. Yeah. Very good. So say I'm going to meetings when I'm not. Mm-hmm. You know. So that was just a recipe for destruction. So it's going to your head.

head and what's going down? Well, no sponsor, no meetings, going to my head. Things are going really well at the store so that can mask a lot of stuff, putting up a banner one day. Yeah.

Yeah, Superman Returns banner. I still own. I'll never get rid of it now. What happened? A ladder, a folding ladder, flattens my thumb. Stupid injury. but my thumb was like this thin. Flattens my thumb.

They have to like drill a hole in the nail and the blood comes up like Monty Python. But at the emergency room, because I had to drive myself there because my employee didn't know how to drive. San Francisco. Yeah, San Francisco. They gave me some Vicodin.

Oh, Daddy Likey, Viking. Yep. And it was pretty much off to the races to that point. Yeah. You're suddenly in a great mood and don't feel any pain. Yep. So you just get a script?

Get a script? And you're just taken as prescribed. Yeah. It's normal at first. Then the thing is when you have a comic store, a lot of people offer you stuff, you know. Like what? Advice? Advice.

That's it. Just through time, I mean, basically the addict mine kicked in again. Like absolutely kicked in again. They're coming in with Coke is what they're doing. They're coming in with Coke. So it jumps really. quick. So it goes from like getting prescripts. And at that time, it was the, the bicon, in opiate epidemic. It was really easy to get scripts. Just make, you could just say I

spray my ankle and oh yeah. My back hurt. And yeah. And then, you know, I've always been offered weed, you know, in the store for trade or whatever. And a guy just like one day just, yeah, comes in, talk. Offer some code. I'm like, sure. So you go from saying no, though. Going from no to let's go in the back and get dusty. Yeah. What's shifted?

The relapse just kicked it. The disease just kicked in at that point. The shifting point was probably, I mean, obviously the not going to meetings, not having a sponsor and realizing that I had already relapsed because for a minute I had it in my head that I hadn't relapsed when I was taking the pills. What were your, oh, because it was just doctor gave us. It was the doctor gave us. But I mean, I had stopped doing the prescribed amount.

So I just said, okay. And you weren't talking to your sponsor at all? Nope. Did you feel ashamed or did you fail? Yeah, totally. Totally. And that's what that's what fed the addiction was the shame behind it. And the difference this time was I was doing all of this in

solitude, right? She didn't know what was going on? She didn't know what was going on. Are you sure she didn't know? Well, I thought she didn't know. Because I think they always know. They always know. We can, um,

fast forward to the Melissa method. Oh, the Melissa method, yeah. Because you're, you're on and off. There's the story. Have you gone down to Comic-Con? Oh, yeah.

If you want to tell that, cool. So Comic-Con. But you're basically out of control. Complete. So it goes, it goes, well, Because a coke habit is pricey. It's very pricey.

And it's a progressive disease. So when I quit, I'll use my eyes statements here, when I quit, it's like I've kept doing drugs to the point where I pick them up again. So if that doesn't make any sense to anybody at home. It makes sense to addicts. If I was doing rails this big back in 89 when I quit. It will mean I'm doing rails this big when I pick up within weeks. Yep.

Within days. Yep. Same with booze, say everything. Yep. And the thing is, your tolerance is not the same as it was then. So it's very dangerous. But yeah, in a very short amount of time, I was doing big old rails, huge rails. How are things going at work?

Insane. I was slowly going insane. My employees are like, what the hell's going on? my wife's like what the hell's going on. You have your son and a stepson at this point? Yep. You're a good dad? I mean, I was never bad to them,

but I wasn't a good dad when I was high. No, it's a terrible dad. Just getting high, yeah. You're thinking about them at all when you're doing your rails? All the time. All the time. And it just made me want to get more high and not think about it,

about how much I was failing them, like constantly. And maybe I had it in the back of my head that, oh, I can get around this. But then there was a point that kicked in. It's like, now that it's probably it. I did it once. I can do it again. And then you probably can't.

No, but just through the grace of God, nothing bad happened to them. Now I didn't take any unnecessary risks with them or do any drugs in front of them or drive them anywhere completely incapacitated or anything crazy like that. I still had enough, I guess, humanity left in me to not do that. That's why Coke is very tricky. Because it's not like you're all cloudy and slurry.

You feel like, I can control this. I got this. Until you're up for like four or five days. And it gets a little crazy. That was when you, I couldn't believe that you didn't crash on the way back from San Diego. So just quickly, what happened? Okay, go to San Diego. I'm like just completely out of it on Coke and there's video of it somewhere.

There is? There is. Oh my goodness. I'll find it. It's bad. Do we have the coked up podcast? Coked up. Yeah, we were doing it.

I wasn't involved. I had hired somebody to do some interviews, but we had like my plan, my cooked up plan was actually sounded like a good plan at the time, but it was very hard to get internet there was to use the booth to sell stuff and also as like an interview. like podcasting interview on the floor. Great idea. This was back in 2013, so it wasn't easy to do that. But we did it and we got, you know, Dave Gibson and like we got some big names to come in.

And, and yeah, but I was like losing my fucking mind. So I get home. Melissa finds out what the hell's going on. And, I mean, she finds the biggest rocket cooking. She does. She does. And how do you, how does she confront you on the, oh my goodness? She, while I'm gone, she's planning an intervention.

Oh, no. So she just plays it cool. And then all of a sudden there's a bunch of people coming to my house. I'm like, empty chair? Uh-huh. I'm like, oh, shit. You know exactly what it is. I know what's going on.

Now, this is where people make a choice. Yep. To sit or to be an asshole. Yep. and I decided to not be an asshole. I mean, I still love my wife, of course, and I still love my kids. It's not like that ever changed.

I just, I was sick. I didn't like myself very much, and I made a lot of mistakes. That's a very important decision that you made. That's kind of like the real Gary coming through is I'm going to sit, because you didn't have to. Because you were verbally abusive to Melissa.

Yeah. I mean, some of the stuff you said to her was out of hand. Yeah, absolutely. She very easily could have left you any time. She should have. And probably should have. Should have. I can't even imagine speaking to anybody that way.

No. Not someone who loves you. She's saying call your sponsor, go to meetings. And you're telling her to go fuck herself. Yep. So this time I didn't. And we sat down. A good friend of mine is there.

who was a customer at the store, but he was also instrumental in bringing me back to recovery. He's kind of a recovery guru. And we sit down, we have the specialist there for the rehab, and he's like, we got to go right now. And at that point, I could have said, no. But I was done.

I was like, you know what? Let's go. So we go to rehab. And, you know, I get cleaned up for 30 days. And it's really nice. One of the best things about it was they took away my phone too. And this is like 2013, so it's not as bad as it was as today. And it was so nice to not be around them for 30 days.

Try it now, Gary. It's still nice. Yeah. Try it now. I will. Maybe not for 30. I don't know if I can for 30 days for a week. That'd be nice.

Everyone should put it away for a bit. For a bit. Yeah, sure. So how did it go in rehab? The rehab was good because it got me reconnected with AA, but I wasn't ready yet, right? So get out of rehab, nice and healthy, I get out of rehab, and just immediately go back in. Right back in. Right back at it.

Did you have the store still? Store is still around. Who's running it while you're inside? So we have, I have a partial business partner. Okay. And then I have the employees and they're holding it together. And the store was like kind of doing its own thing. It didn't really need me there at that point.

Might have been even better without you. It probably would have been. Give them a break. So I get back, go right back to the store. Stores doing pretty good. But then things go downhill for me like fast. So like we're in, we're in rehab in August. So we're in.

September of 2013 and the store went from doing okay to like absolutely done by the end of the year. That fast? That fast. It was like it just fell off a cliff. And it was my,

like the store could have survived but I was, I went back out again. You were back on doing the Coke? Yeah, and just like burning through money. Sure. Absolutely burning through money.

So I have to make the decision to close it. But before I close it, somebody else comes in and says like, I'll give you a song to buy it. And I'm like, ah, fine. You know, the customers still have it. I was like, oh, fine, whatever. You know, I need to.

And all this time, you're selling collectibles to feed your habits. Oh, God, yeah. Stuff that's one of a kind. I laugh. I laugh so I don't cry. John Byrne had, I can send you the copy. It's still out there. You can find it on the internet.

But John Byrne had done a commission for me. of Batman and Spider-Man on a double date with Catwoman and Black Cat and Alfred's like barbecue on the top. So good. It's so good. It's like he drew it for a comic book. Like the guy took so much time with his commission. One of a kind.

I'll never see it again. For two days worth of Coke. Maybe. Two days worth of Coke. And I had Frank Miller original art from Amazing Spider-Man 100, a spread page where Spider-Man is eating. the Fantastic Four. What's going through your mind when you're letting it go?

Are you thinking about this is going to hurt? It's going to hurt, but, you know, I need to get high. Yeah. Yeah. And it hurts. Like, there's a couple things, like, some stuff I've sold, it's like, whatever. But like, there's a couple. It's like, oh, those were.

Those are one of them. Do you know how much that Frank Miller spread would be worth right now? It's like, oh. And considering how much I sold it for, it's like, oh. But that's life. You have to sell the store or you want to? We have to because I am I'm bankrupt. I'm going bankrupt at this point.

She's carrying you guys. And Melissa's not going to carry me. Like this, the shop has to carry itself or it's done. And it could have, but I burned through all the money. So it just got tiresome. I had to have a check ready when the shipment came. And it just like, it just wasn't sustainable at that point. And it was a choice of do I continue to keep the store or do I try to fight to get my sobriety and my family back?

And it was, it was an easy decision. So it was shut it down. Then it gets sold. So it stayed around for a little while. And I, Melissa kicked me out of the house. What do you mean? So she right around, right? around Christmas, she found some more pills, and she's like, you're out. Yeah. So, and initially it was,

I went to sober living. So at first, nowhere, and then we, we set up sober living. Sober living's urine test, though. urine tests, though. How'd that go? I did so much. See, the thing is, though, I didn't do coke. I can tell you the truth right now. I didn't do coke, but I had done so much coke that it was still in my system like days after. So I failed a test and I'm like, I for real didn't do any coke, dude. But they're like,

they all say that. Yeah, they all say that. So they're like, the deal is you got to just go, you get kicked out for a day and then you go to like a different house. You still got to pay for that day. Still got to pay for that day.

So that's what happened. And I'm like, all right. Because you can't go home? I can't go home. So I slept in the car. Slept in the car. Slept in the effing car.

Hoping for tomorrow. Hoping for tomorrow. So this is 2013. I am 43. Just lost everything. And I am sleeping in my effing car. Right. So I get into the next, the sobriety house.

It's off a slope in San Francisco. You're familiar with that area. And I'm like, I'm going to give it another. ago, I got to find a job. First, I just wanted to get, like, I had enough, enough money set aside and didn't need a lot. It's just like, let's just get the sober thing going right now. Let's go to meetings. Meetings? Yeah. And there's meetings in the house. Sure. And the people in the house, it was a nice house. People were pretty cool. You still in touch with Melissa at this time? A little bit. Yeah. A little bit is enough. Yeah, a little bit, which is like, I'm alive. I went to a

meeting, just checking in. But she's not being like, you know, at the time that you're risking more than you were at Folsom? Like, it's a more dangerous situation now. Yes. You knew that. Yeah. Like, this was way more dangerous than when I was younger. You got boys at home, no dad. I got kids I've abandoned, basically. I have let down. And that, like, that sticks the most, right? Is what really motivated me to, to turn my shit. Because I didn't know. know if she was going to get I figured she wouldn't and uh I'm like oh my God is itation with my kids I know other people have to go through there's people out there going through it right now and it's not to look down on them this is a completely different situation but

with what motivated me was like I don't want to have I don't want to I don't want to be that dad I don't want to be that dad there's so many dads out there that have done that it's like I don't want to be that dad. You sit in circles with that dad every time you're at a meeting. Yep. One of those guys is there. Yeah. Yeah.

Can't be that guy. I can't. And, you know, it sucks to be in that position as that guy. And if I had to be in it, that's fine. But my main motivation was I am not going to be that guy. I'm not going to let my kids down. Period. So whatever I'm feeling, I have to deal with it.

So I did. I that was it that was the thing that clicked for me and passed my next piss test no problem nice and well they were hot listen yeah it was quite they were all like this this is the guy who failed so I think they were ready to like boot me out and I passed they're like okay we can move a you could you could feel kind of like attention leave and we can move on and and that guy who technically threw you out that first night which you should have I I don't know what the quote was, but it was a great moment in your story where you were kind of negotiating, almost fighting with the guy to stay.

Yeah. And whatever the quote was, he said, what you're doing right now is your angry at external forces trying to get someone else to make a decision for you. We're not doing that here. Yeah, yeah. You got to do this on your own, buddy. This is on you. This is on you.

Come back tomorrow. Like, these are rules, you know. And he was right. He was right. It's a great. 100%. It sucks to hear at the time, though. It does.

But it's a, but I make, had. me thinking about my own life. Everyone should think about that. When you're angry at external things, you're looking for someone else to make your decision for you. Yep. Don't do that. Man up. Make the call. Man up. And I did. And yeah, so through this, through the sober living, it starts to come together. And I have to go through like just swallowing a lot of pride along the way this is you know uh is going back to auto parts jobs but not to the like i was a i'm a journeyman in that field i had to go work at o'reilly for 12 dollars now that's where i started but that's that's what you have to do and i wasn't super happy about it i was bitter but it's like i

understood that like this is me getting a job and in the meantime um i start a podcast i just because i missed the store and I'm like I need a hobby because I know how important one of the things about recovery is going to the gym is really important and it's not to it's more it's for this yes more than anything it's part of that routine right and having a hobby like having a hobby you enjoy so I'm like well I like we did the podcasting thing at the store let's just do one for shits and giggles and me and a friend. And we did our first show in a Starbucks at West Portal in San Francisco. What did you name the show?

Well, the show was named Sutro Watch Tower originally, which is a terrible name, but it was just a placar name, right? Because we were like literally, because the shop, the Starbucks is under a Sutro Tower. Oh, that's why. Which is a giant antenna in San Francisco. Okay. And we thought watchtower, like, you know, watchtower. So it's a terrible name.

All creators have a terrible name for their first channel. But it was just a placeholder. Yes. Right. And yeah, we do this show. I think we talked about Batman versus Superman and like the Aeroverse and, you know. And how are you handling being away from the comic book store and going a job day to day? How are you just the drudgery, the regret?

Brett. I'm handling it by going to meetings and talking about it and get myself a sponsor and temporary sponsors and whoever would have my ear. But it's tough. It was really hard. How long does it take Melissa to trust you again? A while, a while. We once I got, I think I moved on, we were just about to move on. I went through a bunch of jobs. So I started a Riley and then I just whatever would pay me more, I was gone, you know. Tesla? Yeah, and ended up at Tesla eventually. But between that, I worked at a German car place and a few acuras, right?

Accura and Dodge and eventually end up at Tesla. But I'm back home within a few months. I'm back home. And it, yeah, so I'm doing the podcast thing. I'm going to work every day, and especially when it's up, you know, in Marin. So I'm going to Tesla. I work for Tesla.

I finally get a job at Tesla. I work my way up. What are you doing there? Oh, well, Tesla found me for someone on freaking LinkedIn of all things. Like, I'm actually, I'm the one person on Earth who got a job on LinkedIn. They sent me a message and they were in the process of trying to not be a tech company and be an automotive company because they have service centers. Right? And they were treating them like tech centers. And it's like, you can't do that.

So they need to bring in automotive people. And this was in 2017. So they found me and they offered me like all the money in the world. And I'm like, okay. Well, they're like, what would it take? And I'm like, I'm going to give them a stupid like. How did you become talented and wanted? Why are you being recruited?

What skills did you? I think they were, um, I was on, on LinkedIn our but I just had a lot of experience in auto parts. That's it. And it's probably just as hard now, but it was hard to find people. It's a generational thing, but it was hard to find people who were. My boy can't change an alternator. Yeah.

Doesn't even know what it is. Yeah. So it's like finding people who had skills in that field was getting tough, was getting tough and they had the money and they were just kind of pulling in, I think, it everywhere to see. but the fact that they found me is so weird and I found that email when I was at work at Toyota I'm like I'll just answer it and then like they shot me back and I'm like okay I'll just show I'll just tell them how much money I want and they said yes and I'm like okay I guess I'm working

there now uh it was fine like if for for big corporations they're actually probably the best I've ever worked for the were you turning wrenches uh no I was working in parts so I was setting up a part. I was helping with the parts department that had no focus whatsoever. And when I left, it didn't have any either. That's the problem. Um, but like, yeah, working at a Tesla parts, I won't bore anybody. It's just really different than working at a regular car because Tesla's, you're pretty much just changing tires. That's about it. Door handles, tires and, uh, screens. And that's where you discovered YouTube can kill some time? Uh, YouTube could kill a lot of time. So I was watching a lot of YouTube and I was still doing my podcast and doing like a little

a little bit here on YouTube. I was telling you earlier, we got kind of inspired by Talking Dead, but we were going to talk about Walking Dead. I would, we would find about. The great Chris Hardwood. Yeah, we, we cover Ash versus Evil Dead, Westworld counterpart, just any weird show. And we just do a live stream afterwards and American God. you know and we get a little traction there and it was through expanse we started getting

a bunch of traction which was great which was great before any culture nonsense started going on right so this is all going on in the background while I'm working at these parts jobs and yeah people I'm friends with now I'm all watching I'm at Tesla and I've got my phone down here who are you watching uh Jeremy from geeks and gamers yeah yep so Jeremy from geeks and gamers and in the early days drinker. Sure. Yeah, I was watching Eric July, Young Rippa. Can we give a shout out to Yellow Flash?

Yellow Flash. Hell yeah, Yellow Flash. Well, I was in his streams a lot back in the early days. Yeah, it was. And eventually, you know, a couple of videos took off, right? The first one that took off for me, like big time was like 30,000 views was the expanse getting canceled. I did a video on that. Let's take a break. Okay. Yeah, take a break because now we're getting into nerd erotic. Before we take the

break, how's Melissa doing with this podcast thing? She's watching you do it. You're having a ball. She thinks it's stupid? No, she actually, she, um, she really, she's, she's part of the operation now. She's the brains of the operation. This thing doesn't happen with us. her. I don't have. Does she think I'm stupid all the time? No. No, she's really supportive. And we could definitely get to like the part of the story where, you know, she was freed up to have all that time. But I think she's she's, she's proud. She's proud of me. In her way. We'll be our back. Okay. Yeah. So you have a video that takes off. Right. Yes, relatively speaking. Oh, no, I get it.

30,000 views took me two years. Yeah. To get to. It took me years to get to that. And when I saw it happen, I was just like, it was, it was awesome. I was like, wow, 30,000 people, like a baseball stadium. Yes. Watched my video.

What video was it? It was the expanse getting canceled. It was for a bummer. It was a complete bummer. But I was, it was just reporting that it was canceled. And I had never really done a video. I was a live stream channel purely, not thinking, I did everything wrong. Right.

When I started live streaming, it was just to back up podcast. It was just to record the podcast. So I had no idea people were watching. So I'll never forget one of my first, I consider my first sub because he was the first one I contacted. Brian Smart, I love you. He emails me as all. I have been trying to talk to you for the last three weeks. There's a chat right below your, that you're, that you're,

you're not paying attention to. I'm like, there's a chat. You didn't know? No, I had no idea. Your fans are there. So we start doing it. I'm like, oh my God, there's four people in here. So it was total, I mean, success, total success. This is all I ever wanted was just a talk nerdy stuff. And I had another co-host. It's a friend of mine. He's a good guy. He used to work for Netflix. Help Built Disney Plus. He's kind of a brilliant guy. It's not his fault. What happened over there? No, it's not his fault. but he's the one who's all, you know,

we can make money off this. I'm like, shut up. Can't make money off YouTube. I'm not going to make any money. I'm not doing this for money. I'm happy. I like it.

Were you aware of like monetization and all of that? Not super aware. And at the time, I wasn't even monetized. So I'm like, that's not going to happen. So you were making zero money. Zero for years,

just doing it for fun. Doing this exact same thing. I do now, but just I just did it as a hobby because it was a chance to hang out with my friends and it kept me out of trouble. Yes.

And it was doing something I truly loved. Every morning when I get up since before the comic shop, I'd get up and go to entertainment website. So back 20 years ago, it was the force.net, the one ring.net, you know, just looking out all my nerdy stuff. It made me happy.

That's it. So why not make a show around that? And then once something hits 30,000 views and actors from the show contacted me and they're like, hey, thanks for the support. I'm like, hey, thanks for the great show. You know, like it was really a great show. Seeing it get picked up by Amazon was awesome. So big.

It was huge. And then, you know, we kind of kept doing. I never thought to make videos. Still? So you're still not thinking about I can make money of this. Yeah. So the first video that took off was it technically a live stream. I did it live.

But then once it hit VOD, it took off. And it didn't really click right away. Totally understand. And eventually I just started making videos because I was told, well, that helps you get subscribers. I'm like, well, I can do a video. I can edit a video real quick. And what I'll do is I'll just read. riff off my last live stream.

You know, because, uh, because I mean, even to this day, my channel has more live streams than it does videos. I think I've only done, wow, uh, 600 videos because it says 1,700 on my channel.

600 of those of videos, the rest are live streams. I, I live stream way more. Uh, and I didn't think about it because now I think of myself more as if somebody who makes videos, but I honestly live stream.

You live stream all, all the time, everywhere. I love it. What were the monetization requirements when you were getting close? Oh, those were back in the days of you got a thousand subs. A thousand subs. And that was it? I don't even think it was a thousand subs.

That's before me. You needed like 4,000 watch hours. It was 4,000 watch hours and 500. I can't even remember. It's not the requirements that you have today. No. Do you remember when you hit it? I remember when I hit it and somebody gave me $5 in a super.

chat. Oh, that's awesome. Thanks. You made money. I made money. I remember cash like transferring the first $50 out of, out of my account, just going right on. That's like easy money right there. And I was happy with it and I didn't need anymore. And to this day

I haven't asked for a super chat. I've never asked for a super chat. You have it. No. No. And it's It's been brilliant. The support has been brilliant. But yeah, once that took off, Doctor Who happened, right? And that was the first time.

What do you mean, Dr. Who happened? Dr. who's been happening for a long time. All right. So I guess I got to frame that. Well,

something, things were happening within this particular segment of pop culture. Yes. That made you angry. Yes. That I couldn't believe what was happening. Because if you, like,

well, Okay, so let's go to The Expans. You love The Expans. I love The Expans. The Expans kind of showed where entertainment was going at the time. It was prestige television. It was done right. The Expans season one in it, the first two seasons are 10 out of 10.

10 out of 10. Science fiction, really a great take on the world, a pretty even take on the world. It was. And it was a diverse show that never said we're a diverse show. It was going that way naturally. It was kind of matching the demographics of America and the UK. And nobody was making an issue out of it. Well, it felt like this is where things would go.

Yes. And it's hard science fiction. Like this is how things would happen. Yep. Especially. So we're talking about going to Mars, the Belters, and they have a unique culture and a language. Yeah, the Belters were the Teamsters. Mars was military.

Yep. And Earth. Was the welfare state. Was the welfare state that was run by the United Nations. And I thought it was a really accurate look at the United Nations. And everybody was on basic income. And everybody on basic income sat around their house and did nothing. Right.

They got high. And then you had the wealth gap. Giant wealth gap. And it was a problem. And that's why people were leaving. That's why people would leave to Mars. You know, and Mars was militaristic, but they were goal-oriented and they were,

it's complex, but there was a lot of people, a lot of Martians were just good people. You know, and then they had like the Space Mormons, which was funny. But I thought it was a relatively objective look at life for the most part.

Kind of changes later in the books, but, it does, I stuck with them. I have the books memorized. I did too. I did too. I think they rallied at the end.

The books rallied at the end. There's a couple of books. don't like but um what parts of the story the expanse bother you um meet you a pa you don't like pa huh i hate pa i hate pa pa pa was um instrumental in destroying the earth and based no consequences for it totally agree and i would skip her scenes no offense to the actress to skip her scenes in the book yep but i was okay with drummer yeah drummer was fine was okay drummer was fine with bull being kind of in there. Yeah.

All right. I see where you coming from. And then they went away from Holden in the later books. That was totally. I'm like, what are we doing? But it rallied at the end. And really,

unlike the show, answers the proto molecule, like tells you what's going on. Right. So if you watch the show and not read the books, there's... You just got started. You just got started.

It's basically Game of Thrones. you know, like ending at a dance with dragons or a song of ice and fire. And except you can read the books and find out what's going on. I forget which run, whether it's Thai, I don't forget, but he was in his George's assistant for a while. Yeah, yeah. So both Ty Frank and Dan Abraham's were like protégés. Right. They are like the two people who could probably go and finish a song of ice and fire on the planet.

Yeah. So they were making like an RPG. And so this would be a good novel. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it started it out as a game. I wish they hadn't gotten super political a few years ago. They haven't seen, well, not that I've seen since, but I was, yeah, I was a huge

supporter of the show. And I still say, still watch it. I still think it's pretty good. So what, how has that track with Dr. Who and what you were doing? So Hollywood drastically. changed post, well, there's a couple things. The first Trump administration and me too kind of coincided. 2015, 2016, 2016, something radically changed in Hollywood. What are the origins of that? I can get really in the weeds with that. I think a lot of it was dictated from the Obama administration

and on. You don't have to get into the weeds on that because that's, an opinion. It's my opinion. It is. Yes, my opinion. But what happened to the storytelling is kind of fact. Yeah, whatever the origins were. Right.

Right. And I have my, I have my suspicions, which I've gone over a lot of my channel. It did change. And we saw characters like Luke Skywalker turned into broken men who try to kill their nephew because they had a bad dream and sit on an island drinking. the booby milk from a giant space manatee. And while they were trying to introduce new characters in a Star Wars franchise that everybody would have been fine with,

it was the treatment of Han Solo, it was the treatment of Luke Skywalker, and it was clearly not creatively driven. All of that was not creatively driven. It was social and political motivations behind these decisions. A lot of channels were born with The Last Jedi and the Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. I got into the mix. So were those bad movies because it's a female lead?

No. No, they're bad movies because they weren't planned. They were poorly written. And the female lead was propped up. Basically, she was propped up by degrading the legacy characters. So that's where the frustration comes in. Now, you will hear the excuse from the access media and even people who work on the show and Lucasfilm that people just hate women. Every Star Wars fan would have been completely fine with a female lead and a female Jedi.

and Finn, who was actually the more interesting character out of all of them. He was. Who they made a clown, not the fans. The fans were mad at them for the treatment of Luke. What we have been waiting for is to see full-powered, full Jedi Luke, who could, like a Dark Empire, who could bring down a Star Destroyer with the Force. We just wanted to see that.

That's all we wanted to see. I heard that even Mark Hamel didn't love, the way that character wrapped up. He was not happy. He was clearly not happy, and he was showing that throughout the press. Now, they told him to finally shut up. I don't think he ever fully did, and you can get mad and Mark for other things he said. You can, but I don't care about what he said. I don't care about his political positions. I care about the story. As far as the story of Star Wars, he was clearly not happy about it, and neither were the fans.

You mentioned a phrase, Access Media. You coined that. But that's a term that is used. now in media. What does that mean? Access media is the corporate media that essentially, and not all corporate media, it's also some independent media that will basically throw softballs as far as interviews go and be toxic negativity. There's also toxic positivity. and they will gas up, gaslight, things that aren't very good so they can maintain their access. And it is not for money at all. I mean, I've said it before.

I'd almost respect that more if you did that for money because that's something of value. No, it's just to maintain your access and what they get is screen. They get early access to movies or TV shows. They get screeners. And when you're watching them, they've got like some giant water. mark thing over them. It's annoying. And instead of being authentic and honest all the time, they pretty much, they're really

soft on their criticism and really crazy and absolutely unbelievable with their overpraise with things like Ironheart or the marvels, which are just objectively bad. So they have to review these positively or they don't get the next interview? Yep. or at least think that way. Now it's not... This is not your opinion. This is how it works.

This is how it works. And it's not like the studios tell them that. The studios don't tell them that. They do it on their own. And what happened is people like yours truly or anybody else who went to them normally. Like I used to go to a CBR or screen rant for my news all the time, right? Or ain't it cool news? And...

And honestly ain't a cool news back in the day was the most real. They were absolutely the most real, especially Moriarty. He was like a drinker prototype. Yeah, he would shred stuff. And that's why I love the guy because I knew, well, this guy's honest. You know, I didn't agree with them all the time. But you started seeing these, these giant sites and these critics who, uh, really, they went out of their way to,

I mean, to just call movies that are obviously, like, you can like, we can have a difference of opinion of like Shane Chi, right? Yes. Some people could think it's good.

I think it's terrible, but it's not the worst thing Marvel's ever done. I think it made money, yeah? No, it didn't. It didn't. Okay.

Yes, I got called out. That's how they should decide. That's how they should decide, but what were their gas lights? people is saying these things are making money when they're not. The year that Shang Chi came out and the Eternals, and I think it was Black Widow,

Marvel wrote down $65 million, the studio. So they didn't make money. If you're writing down money, you're not making any money. So if a movie makes, we hear the numbers all the time, a movie makes $300 million, that's not really the number, is it?

No. It does box office, $300 million. That's the money it. Okay, so if a movie makes, if they announce it. Right. That is the money generated at the box office. So that's free split. Yeah.

And that's not including the marketing budget. That's not including marketing budget. That's not including anything. You're paying the actors afterwards. That's not including the theaters take. Right. Which is about half. Which is about half.

It averages out half. Internationally, it's a little more. China gets a huge amount of the money. And then it evens out here, particularly with Disney, which can kind of strong arm the theaters and have been for a long time. So Disney gets 60% of the domestic. In a lot of cases. So it's just, it's, we're just, it's semantics, it's parsing words and it's bullshit.

And then they're not calling out. So the press is supposed to call this stuff out. So we started calling it out. And listen, I didn't know anything about it. So I just researched it. And I talked to people. I talked to people who work in Hollywood. I talked to people who had no.

knowledge of the box office and just learned what they what they taught me. And it's pretty easy. Like theaters don't show movies for free. Right. So we're so when I when I went out and called Shane Chi a flop, it was a flop. It did not profit. And I got called out by Simulu, which is fun. It's fine. But called out for what for criticizing it? Calling it a flop when and he said it wasn't a flop, but it was a flop. It was it did not it was the. technical term of a flop, the technical definition, which is it did not profit at the box office. We had the same battle over Superman. Now I wouldn't go out and call Superman a flop, but it certainly didn't perform as well as it should have. But that's where the access media comes from. It is just

this divide and this disconnection and they just became a PR firm for the studios. So independent people like myself and others, Jeremy from Geeks and Gamers, Yellow Flash, Drinker, Maller, just started doing their own thing, right? And none of us have ever said, like, our opinion is the be all end all. It is just an opinion. But people started gravitating towards it because it was the truth, you know, and, you know, sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes they get things wrong. And the cool thing is we can go, I got that one wrong. Are there any movies or TV shows that you criticize that later on, you're like, actually, it's okay? Hmm.

If we go way back, there's movies I was way hard on. And like Thor, Dark World, I think I was a little too hard on that movie. I actually, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not. But when you can see other, like, the Star Wars prequels, have they not benefited? the most from the Disney trilogy. Those aren't that bad.

Is that a hot take? I don't mind those movies. I hated them when they came out. Yes. I have very much softened my opinion on them. I don't think they're great. We could do without Jar Jar Jar. The Hobbit trilogy.

I hated it when it came out. Same. And I watch it all the time now. Same. It won me back. It won me back. So anything recent that I can't say, I can't say

Yeah nothing Yeah like it's not like I've gone back to Doctor Who if we want to get back to And Doctor Who go now I wasn't that bad I want to know what attracted attention to you So what you why you were dead oh I just came out and said the doctor's not a woman So when they when they The changes of Doctor Who were happening even before Jody Whitaker came along and it was getting It was getting filled with just political nonsense

beforehand, even with Capaldi, who did a great job. I wish he would have gotten better scripts because he's one of the better doctors and one of the better actors to play it. And I have a lot of respect for that guy. But when they have a lot of respect for Jody Whitaker. She's a brilliant actress. And a lot of this is not the talent's fault. It's not. The only thing, like, as far as her taking a job, I don't criticize her for that.

It's when she took the job and what she said, then I'll criticize her. Fair enough. Then I'll criticize her because if she had just gone, I'm going to do the best I can as a doctor, like to come out with. That's fine. I'm going to, I'll criticize the show, but I'm not really going to get on her. And I use the term the first female doctor played by Jody Whitaker because that's how the access media referred to her like all the time. So that's why I used it in all of my videos. It became a label culture. It did. It did. And when she, when they showed, when, when they showed. showed the transition from, you know, that she was going to be the next doctor. I kind of knew it was doctor pressing the panic button a little bit. Something Stephen Moffat even said prior to. He said if they changed the doctor into a female, they're pressing the panic button. Well, they did too soon, in my opinion.

And my opinion was at the time and still is that the doctor's a male character. and the only reason you change the doctor into a female character, it was not a creative decision. It was one to grab headlines, and it was one motivated by social and political. It had social and political motivations. It was not a creative one. They don't know where to go with this.

And if they're going to do a female doctor, are you going to really, are you going to explore the real differences between a male doctor and a female doctor? And they didn't. They didn't. didn't. They just treated it the same. Her first episode, record breaking, but I was, I was there reviewing it. And I just said, the doctor's not a woman. And it was at that time, that could get you

suspended on Twitter. I remember. Yeah, it was crazy. So that's all I said. It wasn't anything crazy. Why do you think you're labeled far right? Are you far right? No. No. I think I'm labeled far right for the same reasons. A lot of people get labeled far right is you don't agree with one extreme political sect on 100% of everything.

I mean, look at how they treat. J.K. Rolling is progressive as they get. She goes off the reservation for one issue and look at what she goes through. So I don't know.

I'm not a hyper political person. But as far as, I mean, we've had the discussions about it. As far as like whatever criticism were flung at me, I'm on the internet.

I understand them on the internet. And I don't really care what people think. I'm glad you don't care. I don't think they know you support Amnesty International, gay rights, gay children at risk, all that.

They don't think they're aware of that. Nope. Do you think by changing these beloved IP, are the intentions good? Are they trying to do something good for society? Yes, I think some of them have that in their mind that the intentions are good, but we all know what gets paved with good intentions.

We do. We do. I think there are some true believers in there that feel like you're getting to a modern audience and you're accessing children with certain messaging. The problem is I disagree with a lot of that. But beyond that, it's, there's no such thing as a modern audience. That's the thing they're always chasing.

It's just, it doesn't exist. Well, okay, I'm going to reframe that. It does, but there's not enough of them. What you want, there's always the audience. You want, if you're making Doctor Who or Star Trek or Star Wars, You want that to have the most mass appeal as possible. Sure. And as I said earlier, if you have a message you want to get across to get people to think about,

don't answer the question for them, present it to them with respect, which is not not spoon feeding it to them. And that's what a talented writer does. A talented, like even Alan Moore, we know where Alan Moore comes from politically. Thinks he's a wizard. He's a, he's a brilliant writer. writer, but even he can write a really good Superman story, like whatever happened to the man of tomorrow. You know, he doesn't let that get in the way of telling a good story.

You know, J. Michael Strzinski, you know, I loved Babylon 5. And yeah, and I think Babylon 5 actually goes into some stuff that he, sometimes a story can go beyond the writer. And I think it really, a lot of stuff that happened during COVID, you can look at some Babylon on five episodes that, you know, there was no intention there, but they really say a lot about it. So that's, that's what good storytelling does. And, and it doesn't, it doesn't drive people away because if you are, if your intention is like, I want people to think about this. Well, you want the most people to think about it as possible. So you don't talk down to them. You don't,

like I said earlier, you don't like start a story going, listen up, bigots. That's not the way to convince someone. It's not the way to convince somebody. And it's really, it really divided fandom in a way that I've never seen in my life. Now, fandom has always been crazy and critical. And you thought you could change the doctor into a woman and people wouldn't speak up. That's kind of crazy. Thinking about it now. How many arguments did you see at the comic store about this comic verse?

That one, this character. Every day. And it was great. I loved them because there were good spirited debates. and like, and I'm an idiot. So I'm sitting there arguing with customers. And we're like yelling at each other, but we're cool afterwards.

But yeah, and I had to hear some crazy stuff. But I, you know what? I listened to them. I sat there. Art, Art Bell, greatest interviewer ever. Yep. Non-confrontational.

Like you kick back a little bit. But I listen to a lot of art. And he will let people have their say with respect, right? And part of, I think, being on a live stream in particular is you are kind of running some customer service. And you got to kind of let people talk, let people do their thing and listen to it. And if it's insane, you can kick back a little bit, but there's still a way to kick back without, you know, calling the guy an a-hole. Why do you think nerd culture, geek culture, which I come from, you know, reading your book, it's almost like reading autobiography. It's

some places. The way I came to Tolkien is the same way through the 70s cartoons. Star Wars, I remember waiting online as a kid. Changes me. Why do you think Hollywood went after this particular beloved IP with hardcore fans and want to change it? Why is that the target? Well, I mean, my opinion on the matter is Hollywood went after it because they wanted to, they felt they were gonna force the change that was needed, uh, consequences be damned because this is what we, we know better. So we're gonna, I mean, with Doctor Who, we're going to take something away. That was the whole, because with Doctor Who, you can make a separate series with a female,

their time ladies, they were called. You could have done that. Uh, and Doctor Who fans would have watched it. You could have had a Doctor Who show and a Time Lady show. You could have. You could have done that. And they didn't do it because they wanted to, they felt like somehow you're being inclusive by taking something away.

And we still see it to this very day, right? And it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't add to anything. Has it worked with any of these? No. Honestly. None of these worked. You can have some like side characters where it works and like I'm not militant when it

comes to race or gender swaps when it's with a side character. Like in Harry Potter, if you make Susan Bones black, I don't care. But Snape is a problem. Snape is a problem. Snape is a problem. And Doctor Who was just as big of a problem. It fundamentally changes the show. It changes the past.

So, and then what they did, knowing with Doctor Who, like what a problem it would be, uh, instead of just having the female doctor show up and leave. which they could have done. They're like, no, we need to reinforce her in the story, that we need to change the origin. So when they went back and changed the origin, and I heard way in advance, I had a friend who was working with Doctor Who,

who I knew from the comic shop days, was telling me what's going on. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. He's all, no, no, they're going to change the origin of Dr. Who. I learned a lot of this stuff from your videos, and I would say the same thing. You know, Gary said this is going to happen. I'm like, there's no way they're going to do that.

It's been 40 years. They're not going to do that. They're not going to ret comma 40 years. But they did. They did it. And they did it to reinforce the female doctor. And they thought it was going to get to the new modern audience. Did any of this bring in women?

Did it bring in any of these? Nope. It didn't. Nope. So it's still the same people watching this IP in generally. It's the hardcore Doctor Who fans who are hanging on. And what Hollywood has failed to learn that is, you know, you buy a really expensive IP for that built in audience, that built in audience are the ones who are, they shepherd new fans in.

They are the custodians. You, the company, own it, but Star Trek fans are the ones who make more Star Trek fans. My wife loves the MCU. my wife loves Star Trek because she would sit there. I would watch it. As the nerd who knows everything, she doesn't know anything. She just knows it's a fun, good story.

Yep. She doesn't really watch any of that anymore. No, because they're not fun. They're not fun. Doctor Who, she became a fanatic. Back to Eccleston. She became a fanatic. And when Tenet came on, that's it.

We were done. We were in. But we're out. it's oh god it's such a shame you know i was just uh i'm going through some classic who now right now and it's like it's a show it was made for nothing and it's and it's it really is just carried with its acting and it's storytelling because you've got you know tom baker talking to a paper mache dude like it's tin foil it's terrible i loved it when tom baker i loved when i was a kid i didn't notice i don't notice some of the themes are really good i don't know some of the themes are

really like really dark and like and magnificent and I know that there was a lot of criticism in the UK about that but I loved it as a kid. Do you think things are coming back? The pendulum always swings. I think so, but I think it's because I wish it was because, you know, we see the error of our ways. We are villainizing and demonizing the paying customer, our audience, the people who got us here. and constantly saying we don't need you by we're hunting for a modern audience.

We're looking for a newer audience, right? And it's like, you know, word of mouth is still the best marketing there is? Telling a story is still a pretty good idea. It's a good idea. And you forego that because you're searching for potential, right? I've never understood that. There's nothing that there's no, there's no data out there. that says Gen Z was going to get into Doctor Who if you change it to a woman.

There's no data. None. There's zero. But they'll show up for a good story because they won't. The audience is still the audience. So you went from being ignored to being attacked. And now you have influence. I got attacked and it was.

Well, you're still being attacked. You're going to be attacked for this. Yeah, yeah. As will I. Yeah, you will. I will. Sorry. I care so much.

Uh-huh. Gary's my friend, if that's a problem, by Felicia. I don't care. Thanks, brother. I mean, I feel like I'm in a coma somewhere. I don't want to wake up. This is, we do this for a living. So who cares?

Yeah, it's really kind of the greatest gig in the world. Isn't it? So when, when you get attacked on the internet, like, not everybody's going to, and this is no judgment on nobody wants to get the emails i get or you get or nobody wants to get that stuff but you know if you keep it in mind like i don't know i've got the grading curve of life or like the stuff i've been through i'm like this is nothing like i'm not worried about it that's why i spent so much time with your story because um a lot of the hate you get really isn't warranted because there's no you there's no misogyny in you there's no racism there's really no political

leaning. You just want your stories told properly and beloved IP just left alone. I think that's okay. I think it's okay to adapt something properly and it doesn't mean you, they have plenty of room in original material to do whatever messaging they want. Well, you're influencing studios now. Do you feel that's, that power's earned? Of. Of having influence in Hollywood. Because they know who you are, I know that for a fact. Oh. I talk to studio execs of all the big studios,

and they know agarious, and Will, and everybody. And they're making decisions based on you guys. Oh, wow. That doesn't hit my mind very much at all.

I try not, like, because of where the relapse came in last time. So I try to keep things very much in check. I think that's smart. An idiot with a microphone.

And because you're back where you are at the comicrist, you're hot shit again. You can't let ego Gary come back. No, no. Because you'll lose it all. No. I hope they listen to the people in the comment section and the people in the chat. I hope they, you know, take a good look at that and see what people. Because, um, you know, during a live stream, we'll have people rewrite, uh, the last Jedi

or the last episode, uh, a Starfleet Academy or we'll have a Robert Meyer Burnett on Friday Night TITES who pitched a better Starfleet Academy than the one they like one I would watch. You know, so they're there, it's not all, um, them slinging, you know, whatever they're slinging. So tell me about Friday night tights because that's, you're, what, hundreds of episodes of that? How did that start? Uh, 400 episodes. And what is FNT?

FNT is a shit show. It is, um, it's, uh, it's a live stream that we do every Friday. and it is climbed up to nine co-hosts. And we talk about pop culture every Friday. We've been doing it for this version of it for six years. I've been doing a Friday show for eight years. And it's true. You've never had anyone black or female on there.

That's true. Never. Not once. No, nobody gay. No, never. We're being sarcastic because you have. Yes, a lot. You have.

A lot. And what we learn is fans are fans. and the labels don't even matter. Nope. So what makes F&T different? Because there's a zillion of these shows. There is. I think it's the good mix,

the chemistry of personalities and no filter at all. And what we really try to lean on making you laugh. That's the whole point of the show is to make you laugh. And it's just a bunch of people who like each other,

genuinely. shooting the shit for three or four hours. And it's, it's no different than any other conversation of fans anywhere else that you have with your family or at a diner. And there's no plan to it at all. We kind of throw, we bullet point some subjects.

We get to about three of them. We go off on tangents. So there isn't any real structure. Please don't, don't create any. Just leave it chaos. I don't even think we know how. I don't know how.

I don't know what I'm doing. So what for Forbidden Frontier is something I came across accidentally and didn't know that Gary did this. What is that show? It is another passion of mine like you. I like I listen to Art Bell. Have you ever heard of Art Bell and Dr. Demento? Oh yeah. Dr. Demento is, uh, I listened to Dr. Demento before Art Bell like years and years.

Same. Seventies. Yeah. Back in the 70s and this is how I grew up. But, um, yeah, with you. UFOs and Bigfoot and ancient civilizations, Eric von Daniken, Charles, Charles Berlitz was like the gateway drug for a lot of people with the Bermuda Triangle. For me, it might have been Graham Hancock in the 90s was the gateway to that kind of stuff. Yeah.

The pre-flood society, the fingerprints of the gods. Graham, I think, graduated the subject to something way more legit. Yes. Like I always like all respect to the late Eric von Danikin, Cheriates of the Gods. And we'd go back to Villikovsky who honestly I didn't know about till later. Yes. Where all of this,

where all of this comes from. And in search of. I watched in search of all the time. Sure. And X-Files and remember the show sightings? Of course. That was the pre. So I've always been into this all my life and listen to art.

But when, yeah, when Graham came around, he took the subject of ancient civilizations and made it more palatable, right? And did it honestly. As a real journalist. As a real journalist who actually goes places and looks at these things and paid for it with his own money. Because Art Bell was the best to ever do it, but a lot of it was wacky, man. He was always very respectful, but a lot of it was just wacky.

But you read Graham's work and this is serious stuff. and Robert Schock and even Randall, Randall Carlson, these are real scientists. This is real stuff. It's real stuff. And I mean, you can't undersell when Randall and, Graham and Randall were doing them separately, but when they got together and did that on Joe Rogan,

that really launched. It launched it. And that's why we have a lot more legitimacy in this, including a Netflix special with two seasons for Graham Hancock, which I never thought. I'd see. Nope. And they tried to cancel that.

They did. Ancient Apocalypse. Yep. I defended him hard on the channel when he was attacked for being a racist. Yeah. It's like that is the most ridiculous thing. It's like you don't know anything about this man. You obviously haven't seen his wife.

Right. So it was very nice. Right. So here we go again. But I'm always frightened. Like I was just getting started. I'm not really controversial, but I am a little. I go pretty hard against government and all of that.

So when Joe Rogan, when CNN tried to cancel him and they were going after Spotify, I was terrified. Because I was making a few bucks. Yeah. And it was like if they canceled Joe, this all goes away. Yep. And Spotify stuck by him. And then everything started to relax.

It was like everything started to change. I think it was that moment. that was surprising that they stuck by it because I know a lot of employees in there didn't want to stick by them yep but I think they saw the investment and saw that that Joe isn't what what CNN was trying to make him out to me which is just ridiculous he's not no no he's just a regular guy like just a guy he's just a dude and he looks at things from a very dude perspective And I think that, that, I think it's really endearing. And that's why he's the best podcaster out there.

And all the things he criticized back in those days, you criticized, I did. Turns out we were right. Yep. Which I knew the whole time. We were right. And now we're allowed to be right. And he, Joe kicked that door in by, yes, he did, by sticking to his guns. Spotify sticking with it.

Elon coming in and buying Twitter and changing that, which absolutely changed YouTube. Yes. I mean, and Facebook. and everything else. YouTube is, it ain't perfect, but it's way, I'm,

I haven't been, gonna break the streak. We haven't been demonetized on F&T in, in a long time. Well, knock on wood, I don't dodge that bullet every week, but I try.

I'm used to not doing, like, I was fine with it, but it's just, what you can get away with now on YouTube, aside from a couple things. What did you think happened?

What? I think when Elon exposed through the Twitter files, when they exposed all the government interference, because if they were interfering with Twitter, they're at Google right now. They're everywhere right now. They are. They still are.

But that had to get loosened up. And I also think advertisers, we can't discount the money factor in. Nope. So advertisers. were losing by by acting, you know, clutching their pearls and saying, we cannot show ads on this stuff. And they saw how much they were losing, how much money they were losing

because you could advertise on all this YouTube stuff. Joe was demonetized the whole time and then woke up one morning and it was just on. Yep. I didn't say anything, just quiet. No, because the advertisers loosened up a little bit. Yeah, I would like to have 30 million people look at my ad. Yep. It's the same story.

about people and audience. It's not about point of view, really. No. And it's not like it was, we look back on it and go, that was really common sense and that was considered highly controversial. That's how we get caught up in this stuff. It's one of the darkest times in our history. I'll never forget the day Jen walked in and said they're going to lock down the city.

We were in L.A. at the time. They're going to lock down the city, close all businesses. And I laughed at her. I said, they can't do that. And they said, they're going to do it for two weeks. I couldn't believe it. I stayed open. Good for you.

Curfew stayed open and the studio just went to hell. No one would come in. No masks. They wouldn't come in. And we're out of business during the riots. That was the end of that. The riots. Lovely riots.

Which weren't really covered on the news, but L.A. burned. I've never seen police cars upside down on fire before, but I did that week. And then that's where we left L.A. So Forbidden Frontier is a great success. You guys really know your stuff. Like I look to you, because I don't know anything. I'm just an entertainer.

I look to you guys. You're the reporters kicking in the doors, following the stuff. I watched you live stream a congressional hearing, I think. Oh, yeah. What do you think is going on with disclosure? Oh, God. I think we're in a worse shape now. than we ever have been.

So, um, and it's just because I've been following this as a hobby. So I know lots of, bits and pieces, but you'd have to definitely go to the Richard Dolan's of the world. Sure. To,

to, for the expertise. Um, yeah, we, we covered that one and that was frustrating. Just all the stuff that has to go on in the skiff. And I do believe, and it took me a while to get to this.

I believe there is a faction in the government that really wants to let us know. Why? I don't know. I think there is some danger involved. I know there's the Stephen Greer point of view where all the aliens,

if they're out there, if they're us, whatever they are, they're nice. I don't know if I can buy that. Maybe. That's a possibility. they could, if they had the power to wipe us out, they could have wiped us out right.

There's certainly that. You think they're out, you think it's extraterrestrials, aliens for other worlds? Or is it interdimensional? Is it future time traveling humans? Yes. Yes to all. I think it's yes to all of those.

I haven't decided it. I go back and forth. It's definitely something. I just, I think interdimensional maybe is what I'm falling on now, that they've been here for a long time, that they're in the water, that they're in the ocean. Yes.

That's where I'm leaning. But I could change. That can change. But with that last government hearing where we just heard nothing and the same stuff over and over again, it just, it was discouraging. So if we, I don't know where the UFO topic goes now. I always thought if we get disclosure, it won't be from a government. And even if a government came out, if Trump or whatever president of another party came out,

And said, yep, we talked to Zorg from the Pilates and, uh, where we have a, like half of the country is not going to believe it. They're not. They're just because of the politics of it. So it'll have to be something insane like, uh, uh, the Phoenix lights, uh, a UFO flying slowly over a big city where we can get multiple camera angles and then still half the population will think it's AI. Yes, they will.

It's, it's, it's in a bad place. right now. I don't know where you go. You've been, you're into the ancient stuff. You've actually gone into the field. Yes. Where have you been?

Been to Peru and Egypt so far and we're going to go to Japan. We're going to go check out Megalithic Japan. What, Yanaguni? Yeah, well, no, not, I'm not going to be diving, but no, basically where the palace is, you know, just so the polygonal stones, We're going to look at There's quarries

There's giant stuff on there But going to Saxi-Waman for the first time I don't know if you've ever been there It is mind-blowing utterly mind-blowing And it really You know I can hear all this stuff all day long

And I can read all the Graham Hancock But when you go there And you see like How in the hell did they do this? And you know, I don't think it was aliens. I always think it was humans. We were pretty industrious.

I don't think it's that crazy to think that there was a civilization that was maybe as advanced, let's say as the Romans were, you know, 10,000 years before the Romans or 8,000 years before the Romans that got wiped out during a apocalypse, basically, during a cataclysm that's looking like actually happened. It is looking like that. with Quebec Letepe and Mankuku Tarla. It looks like they were here. Great Pyramid Egyptians,

built or found? I think built from plans, from plans, for lack of a better term, from blueprints from a previous culture. Interesting.

Previous culture. So maybe there was a foundation there already that they, I think the pyramid have been have been rebuilt. There's some evidence that. Probably multiple times. There's some evidence.

Kind of like, well, the Sphinx for sure. The Sphinx has been put back together. We were just there in Egypt and we saw, you know, the erosion evidence that Robert Shock and John Anthony West had exposed many, many years ago. Yeah, they're putting a wall over it. They're putting a wall over that? Yep. Yep.

So you went hard after Zahi Was, after he was on Joe. show. Yeah, he was ridiculous. Do you think he's gatekeeping or do you think he's protecting his culture? There's a national identity to Egypt, to Egyptians that they're proud of and should be. Yes, I think that that is the motivation behind some of the roadblocking we're seeing on some of the archaeology as they're trying to protect Peruvi. Peru's a lot cooler about it than Egypt is. I got to be careful. I don't trust the thing Zahi Hawass says.

I think he's a complete. I think he's shady as hell. It wasn't a good look for him on that show. No, he did more good for Graham Hancock and Randolphin Carlson and Robert Shock than anybody could have dreamt after that appearance. always talking about his book, taking credit for stuff that he didn't discover. And some people who have met him said he's a complete nice guy,

but just the impression I get is he is stopping progress there. And maybe, you know, tell us why. I think the most exciting thing is the labyrinth. The labyrinth in Egypt. Ben van van Kerkirkwick. This is the Hwara Lama. Yeah. Has done some great work on this.

It's not that he discovered it, but he's done some great work, Uncharted X, has done some great work and great videos on these. And I think that would be the most exciting discovery of the 21st century. We need to, and there's some politics behind it. It's getting flooded out and there is because of the water is being diverted because they need to help agriculture, which they do, which they do. They need to find a way to divert that water so we can drain it and figure out what's down there.

we don't have much time for that labyrinth no we don't and lydar has shown that there are we know there's structures down there and that labyrinth has been discussed by ovid plenty of the elder all these great historians strabo all visited and said it goes they saw 3,500 rooms it goes down three stories it's there some have said there's a giant oval ring made of metal in the center of it The exact same size, well, not exact, but close to the same size as the tick tack. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

It's wild. And I would love to know and why not? But, you know, Zahey seems to stop a lot of that stuff. And you would think, you know, Egypt relies a lot on tourism. That would, that would be a. I'd love to see that. I would. I'd go back.

I'd go back. It was definitely worth going, for sure. It was amazing seeing some of that stuff. Egypt's an interesting country. You've got your media empire. What do we have? Oh, boy. We've got FNT, Forbidden Frontier.

You've got your videos, Neurotic Daily. Yeah. What else are you doing? Oh, my God. I think that's pretty much reps. That's it. That's a lot. That keeps me busy.

I've got a couple editors. X-ray girl, you know, Cord Black, Perry Chan. And, well, we, we do tours once in a while with Michael Collins from Wandering Wolf. Yeah. So we'll be doing the Japan thing. That takes up all my time. And you know you're living the dream now. Absolutely.

This is the greatest gig in the world. You said daily, practice gratitude daily. Yep. What's the mechanics of that? because some days are shitty, man. That's when it's the most important. What do I do? How do you do it?

Oh, you catch yourself. Okay, I catch myself in a bad mood or feeling excessively negative about just like really mundane stuff in life. And I just, it's a mindset of turning it around by thinking of three things that you're thankful for. And the first one could be, wow, I've got, there's a wife out there who loves me for some reason. I don't know why, but she does. My kids like me. That's awesome. Not every, not every kid loves their father.

And we have this amazing job, like that, that thanks to the support of so many brilliant people out there. It's definitely something we work at, right? but it's like, I've said it before, it's like winning a lottery that you work really hard to get to. That's a great way of describing it. You go to meetings? Yes, go to meetings. So, and we'll wrap up with this.

There are people listening now because I know they're out there that are addicted, that are struggling, depression, they're in booze and drugs to cope. Can you tell them who the most important person in their life is? Oh, they are. They are. They are. They're the most important person in the lives.

And people love them. People care about them. And the world can still benefit from them turning stuff around. It's never too late. It's never, ever too late. And if you try sobriety, I can promise you, it will not be easy, but I can also promise you it will get better. Way faster. Your life will get better way faster than you think.

And just give it a try. You know, people can try. I don't want to discourage anybody from getting sober any way they want, but definitely whatever you do, make sure you go to meetings too. Really, they're free and you'll find some of the most welcoming, forgiving people on earth in there. And just make some friends, see what happens. You're an inspiration. is proof that it works. Gary, thanks for coming in. It's been a joy.

It's been awesome. Thanks. Bye, everybody. That was Gary Beakler. I know his name is spelled wrong. Everyone calls him Butchler. Gary Beakler, the prison story, the comic shop, the relapse, the comeback, Doctor Who, the Access Media. We covered a lot.

Gary's book covers the old Folsom story in full, and it's a different kind of read than you'd expect for a pop culture guy. If you only know him from NerdRod, like, buckle up. The book is wild. I was going to say in graphic, it's not that graphic, but it's pretty intense.

So there's not much to analyze about what we talked about here because Gary is my friend. But here's a few nuggets. The Doctor Who situation he described tracks with what actually happened. Series 11 opened huge, over 9 million viewers in the UK.

Then the new showrunner retcon The Doctor's Origin in series 12, rewriting 55 years of canon in a single ever. episode. Ratings collapsed. The BBC eventually replaced everyone and brought the original showrunner back. We'll see how it goes, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Gary mentioned Disney was racking up some serious losses. Well, Disney did report roughly $1.5 to $2.5 billion in content write downs in 2023. Gary's math is correct. Gary is controversial, but he probably shouldn't

be. His grievances align with what a lot of people were already feeling. He was just one of the first people to call it out. The pattern he identified, putting politics ahead of story, showed up in Doctor Who, in Star Trek, and Marvel, and Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings, and now in Harry Potter. He called it every time, before most people were even paying attention. Gary's memoir is waiting from prison to YouTube on Amazon, and it's a great read. His channel is Nerdroddick, Friday Night Tights goes live every Friday. Forbidden Frontier is where he covers ancient mysteries, UAPs, and WIFELS kind of stuff. It's probably better than the WIFELs.

The links are down below. Until next time, be safe. Be kind. And know that you are appreciated. I was a little mumbling. Do another take? Leave it in. Scenario 51.

A secret code inside the Bible said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal. fun as well as music Sloan sang in the like I should Another piece theory See theory becomes the truth My friends And it never ends

No it never ends I got stuck inside Males hole with MK Ultra A being only two of A film set were the shadow people The smiling man I'm told

And his name was cold Like sidings and the solar storm still cut the secret city underground Mysterious number stations planets are both and where the dark watchers