The Why Files: Operation Podcast - The Basement: Travis Taylor | Black Holes, UFOs & Skinwalker Ranch

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

-Discover how to move your IRA or 401k into physical gold and silver — with no taxes or penalties. Get your free portfolio review and free gold & silver guide from GoldenCrest Metals: visit https://GoldenCrestMetals.com/thewhyfiles or call [phone] now. -Get your free 30-second assessment and see how much you could save at https://pdsdebt.com/basement; checking your options is fast, free, and won't impact your credit. -If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can start your claim in just a click without having to leave your couch: https://ForThePeople.com/WHY Dr. Travis Taylor spent 35 years inside classified defense programs. Then the government made him chief scientist of its UFO task force and sent him to Skinwalker Ranch. What he found there took him straight to the Pentagon. We get into black holes, Tesla's hidden lab, Art Bell's mystery metal, and the experiments nobody can explain. By the end, you'll understand why he says: "I'm not an experiencer. I'm a knower." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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He's written 25 science fiction novels, he holds five advanced degrees, and wrote the textbooks on rocket science, laser science, and quantum field theory. He fueled a rocket with moonshine on National Geographic and spent 35 years on classified defense projects. Somehow, one guy did all that. And moonshine is the only fuel the government can't trace. That wasn't a stunt. That was tradecraft.

When the government needed a scientist for a real UFO task force, they picked the Red Net Rocket Scientist. Eight years later, he's still the lead scientist at Skinwalker Ranch. You've seen him on the show. Today, we're covering what he pulled out of that mesa and why a drone swarm fell out of the sky at 3,000 feet. Actually, 3,271 feet. All of them.

I kind of wanted to tell you why, but you need to be surprised as I was. We also talked about his paper arguing that our universe sits inside a black hole, which means our entire universe is just a tiny black hole in somebody else's sky. The math works. Oh, a tribal leader called him

to say, the sky people are taking him inside that mesa at Skimwalker Ranch, but he refuses to remember. And he was like, fine. Then two days later, a remote viewer told him the same thing. He goes inside the mesa and refuses to remember it. I spent it.

15 years trying to forget my second wife. This man has a gift. After a conversation, I'll come back and break down the talk. Let's go down to the basement. Dr. Travis Taylor, welcome to the basement. Thanks, man. You left out. Black Belt martial artist.

Did I? Yeah, scuba diver, pilot, you know, all that stuff. What systems do you train in? Well, I've trained in two systems. Shinigari, which was American Taekwondo, and then White Tiger Kempo. Kempo myself. Yeah. Four different systems.

Wow. Cool. Yep. That's great. Love to meet a Kempo guy. There's not a lot of us around. In 2000, I was the Alabama state champion in fighting. No kidding.

No one fighting, yeah. Wow. That was a long time ago. Long time ago. My first black belt I got from Nick Serio, got his from Ed. And my fourth black bell I got from Larry Tatum, who got his from Ed. Oh, nice. So it's great lineage.

So I want to start with an apology. So last night, I'm talking to my wife, Jen. She's like, so are you ready for tomorrow? I don't know, man. I don't know if I can keep up with Dr. Taylor. He's done so much. And she said, well, he emailed you as a fan of the show. I said, what? And two years ago, you sent me an email. And I never saw it. So I apologize for that. Some of it says, it's about all the stuff that got wrong. I am that, Travis Taylor, Chief Scientist at the UAPTF, 35 years DOD, I see NASA.

I co-own a company now with Jay Stratton and Lou Alizando, I'm longtime friend colleagues of Hal, put off, Kit, Green, et cetera. By the way, you say if you believe in remote viewing or not, you should add a caveat that has been scientifically proven, and you think you understand the mechanism for how it works. Loved your episode on the Aviary, but folks always get how wrong. Bigelow's work at Skimwalker that has or has been found there.

Modern UIP work is misunderstood. Big Art Bell fan. You were the first to analyze arts parts back in the day with Art and Linda a few times. Roach you back. So we're going to get to all that today. And then this morning I get, because I, you know, I broached you back.

Thank you for all that. You only come through Vegas before going to China Lake, NTS, and somewhere else. I guess we know where that is. Never stopped to smell the strippers. We can't wait to make you straightening you out in some nonsense you've been told. Dude, I can talk about anything. Nonsets. I want to get to all that today, all this stuff I got wrong.

Because you were there for all of it, ma'am. Well, if I was there for all of it, I know the people who were firsthand. and so maybe I can help you put the pieces together. I'd like that. Everyone starts with Skim Walkworth with you, but I got to do this for me. I want to start with the universe in a black hole. Is that the paper you're working on?

Yeah. For your next PhD, you need another one of those. Well, so a lot of people ask me why so many degrees, why all this, want to do all these different things. For the longest I was trying to get in the astronaut program. And, you know, if you look at, it's like Story Musgrave, for example, That guy's got umpteen master's degrees. He jumps out of planes at, you know, 30,000 feet and all sorts of things, you know, test pilot, all that stuff.

And so I thought, well, you've got to compete with those guys. You really, you've got to bring your A game. And also my goal, when I was a kid, I was about 10 years old, my dad, who was a master toolmaker, he brought me a book. It was a beat-up paperback book. And he said, son, I've been reading this. I think you would really enjoy it. Once you read it, then we'll talk about it.

And it was Eric von Danikins' Chariots of the Gods. Wow! And so I read it, absorbed it, read it again, bent pages on it so that we could come back and talk about it. And my dad and I, since that time, you know, 48 years ago, we still, to this day, we discuss new ideas that we've discovered, say, in some religious text or theological book or even just a poem, somewhere written in history.

And we say, well, that sounds a lot like that they're describing technology, you know, not. And that's what got me into understanding the universe from the ancient aliens sort of perspective. Giorgio, Seuclis, like to say ancient astronaut theory. I keep explaining to him a theory has a much larger acceptance. This is a hypothesis. Right. It is an ancient astronaut hypothesis.

But that's okay. You know, he's not a scientist. He's a researcher. And I applaud everything that the guys have done. Even if sometimes they go off in weird rabbit holes and lead you down a path that isn't the right answer, that's okay. That's how you learn, right? And the other reason. So not to skew too far.

There was a, when it came out that I had been the chief scientist of the UAP task for. There was a guy who wrote a article in, I think it was the Washington Post, it said government, it says something like critics mystified or baffled by the government's choice of guy who believes in paranormal for the UAP Task Force chief scientists. I've never once said I believe in anything paranormal. I don't mean like the word paranormal. Because if it's paranormal,

paranormal means not within the universe. And if it's within the universe, or if it's not within the universe, then how are we seeing it and studying it? Right? It's something that's happening. I don't believe in the word fringe, because there's no such thing as French.

Science is science. If it's an unknown, you've got to study it. But in that article, the guy even went so far as to say his alleged education. Alleged. Alleged. Alleged education. He didn't do his homework, man.

And I'm like, you're going to take pictures of my diplomas on my wall and my study at home? Or I'm sure my mom's got pictures of graduations, you know, not like other folks. who claim they have master's degrees from somewhere and they can't even prove they went there. Not to get into that, but my point about that is yeah, he didn't do his homework for a reason. And that's where

there's somebody, there's an active source of people, whether it's an act of general conspiracy just culturally, or there's officially something being driven to discredit any who's asking questions. For example,

you know, Michael Shermer's a smart guy. He's a really smart guy. But his answer is always the skeptical answer from the start. And that's actually a violation of the scientific method. Honestly. I think he's getting his directive is from somewhere. Yeah, so I think that's the point. And that's what I'm going to...

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Do we see if a free investor can explaining how physical gold and silver can be added to an IRA or 401K, a free portfolio review with no obligation or hard sell, and on qualifying purchases, up to $25,000 in bonus silver. I'll give you a real simple example so that you can use to explain to anybody. Let's say we have the videos that have come out, and somebody says, well, we believe we can show, why invoke UFOs? This could just be some phenomena, airplane light glaning off of it. You know, as Will Smith said, light reflecting from Venus.

Right. Well, that's fine. That is a possible solution. It's not the only solution. What's the square root of four? Right. Two? No, it's not.

Square root of four is plus or minus two. That's true. Think about that because minus two times minus two. That's true. It's still four. There are two solutions to that question. And either one are equally valid. So is it light reflecting off of swamp gas from Venus or whatever, you know, or could it be something else?

If it is a solution, a viable solution, it is still a possibility that has to be investigated. And so that's why I wonder why there's something saying, well, don't look at that set of solutions. It's never minus two. It's always two. Right. That's the Collins group. Yeah. We don't call, we don't know who they are, but within the task force, we called them the antibodies.

Yeah. And we would run into the antibodies often. And we, just for asking questions, right? And when we became the official UAP task force, the National Defense Authority, authorization act, NDAA of 2019 and 2020, gave us authority to be briefed at all classifications. At all. All classifications.

And they didn't have to brief us in and say, this is the technology, how it works. But if we asked them, was this you? They had to tell us bylaw. And it said that there's a felony if they didn't. And we had multiple star officers tell us that they would commit the felony before telling us. Of course. Of course they would. So to me, they're admitting that they're going to break the law.

It's treason. Yeah. Sorry, I got us off on a tangent. No, that's okay. But that's why I, I've tried to learn everything I possibly can. Since I was 17 years old, to get behind that door, to see these things, understand these things. And number one, what if we need to be doing something? We don't have an Avengers initiative.

Right. That's true. That's on my list is when you were 17, how you worked on SDI. But black holes. Oh, yeah. Archipatheria That said universe is a black hole in the 70s We've got Poplowski in the 2010s

So this is not new But your paper I think says Our universe could fit into like five to ten solar masses Yes So the paper that I It's really weird if it came about I was actually working on a simulation hypothesis presentation for a conference

I forget which conference it was and I was looking at world maps of video games. Okay. Like, say, Minecraft, you got the square world map or, you know, whatever. And how they worked. And I realized that since you couldn't go, they weren't like the old Atari in asteroids where you go off this side and you come back on this side, right?

You know, that's actually a sphere. People don't realize that. But I was looking at the world map and I realized you can't go outside the boundaries of that. And so the video game itself, has an event horizon. Okay, that hit my, and at the same time, I pulled a picture that was made by a cosmology group. Anybody can go find it.

It's a circle that shows sort of a logarithmic plot across time and space to the edge of our universe, and it's a big circle, it shows we're somewhere near the middle, and then you got the giant galaxies that, when they were beginning to form and all this out at the edge of time, when the big bang allegedly occurred, and there's nothing beyond that circle. that you can see.

And I looked at it and said, well, this is exactly the same world map as in Minecraft. There's an event horizon on our world map that we can't see beyond. And I said,

the only thing that I know of like that that has an event horizon that traps all the information on the inside of it is a black hole. And then I realized, well, Stephen Hawking actually wrote a paper

with a guy named Beckenstein that black holes actually do emit a certain amount of radiation. But it's, so tiny that the amount of radiation, it's such a long wavelength and so low energy, we can't build detectors to detect it. So it'll be decades before anybody can prove or disprove Hawking's concept, his hypothesis. But it matches with the math and everything.

It's probably true. It's just we can't prove it for a long time. We get better at building instruments. But I realized, I said, well, if there's energy leaking out of this black hole, well, then that energy is a signature of what's inside it. And so you know how you can take your radio dial in your car, back in the old days when you could turn it, you can see all the numbers there. That's the frequency spectrum of all the transmissions your radio can do, right?

In time, it sends a signal, but across the frequencies, you can see all these spots on the dial. Well, I thought, now what if the signal, if we look at its spectrum, if it tells us all the information that's inside coming from the inside of the black hole. And when I did certain types of math, it let me reproduce what we see is modern cosmology running backwards from the outside looking in. So in other words, we believe we have models of our universe, right, going this way, expanding outward from the Big Bang.

Well, in a black hole, if you look at it from the outside end, times reversed. and it would be falling inward. And I thought, well, now, that's an interesting corollary. And so I used all the math from hawking and everything, and I ran a bunch of my, it took me a lot. It's such a long Python code that it took me forever. I had to vibe code a lot of it with, you know, chat gvety because I'm not a supercomputer hacker, you know.

But you have to always go back and make sure the math is right, because, you know, AI will give you fake stuff. It will. But anyway, so once I ran the models over and over and over, over and convinced myself that the code was right, it showed that any black hole between five and ten solar masses should have similar cosmology as our universe, which suggests, now I'm not saying it proves it, but it suggests that we live in a black hole that's about somewhere between five and ten solar masses, and my model stopped somewhere about seven point two

solar masses. So Poplowski said that we would inherit the characteristics and spin of our parent black hole, but what I can't square is the Swarshchild radius. Well, so the Swartzschild radius is only something you see from the outside. Oh. That's the event horizon. We can't go past it. We can't get out that. Well, explain Swarth Child for the folks listening.

Yeah, so if you take an amount of mass and you squish it as small as you can make it, There is a radius around it, spherically, makes a virtual sphere, say, a geometric sphere around it. And at that radius is the race where light can't even escape the gravitational attraction. Even light will fall in right there. So there's no way, unless maybe you have a warp drive that you could escape or quantum tunneling. Right. You know that 3 a.m. feeling not being able to fall back asleep because you're drowning in debt, PDS debt is here to help.

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The average PDS debt client saves $20,123, and thousands of people are already using this to take control of their debt. debt is the top-rated company in the industry with thousands of five-star reviews and an A-plus rating on the BVB. Look, I've dealt with debt myself, lying there doing the math at 3 a.m, feeling like I'd never get ahead of it. I want you to know that there's a way out when using PDS debt. Get your free 30-second personalized assessment today at PDSd-Ebt.com slash basement. That's pDSdebt.com slash basement. PDSdebt.com slash basement. And so the interesting parallel, though, AJ, when I was doing this, was it led back to my simulation

hypothesis presentation because, like Elon Musk has said, that he doesn't believe there's any chance that we're in the prime universe, that we're in a nested simulation. One in billions. A simulation within a simulation within simulation? Sure. Well, look across our cosmology how many black holes there are. and within our universe we see black holes everywhere, right? And if we're in a black hole, that means that there are black holes in our black hole. And those black holes probably have black holes in those black holes.

And those black holes will have holes in those black holes, and it's turtles all the way down and all the way up. So could our universe be a black hole in someone else's sky? Yes, that's the point. It's turtles all the way down and all the way up. Do you know Lee Smolens work at all? That name sounds really familiar, I'm not sure? His theory is cosmological natural selection where if the universe is a black hole, it's always looking for ways to just create more of them.

It's almost like the anthropic principle, but on the black hole level. Wow. Yeah, well, that's, I mean, that gives it sort of a purpose and intent, like the Genesis device. It almost sounds intentional. Yeah. Well, so if you want to talk about intent, let's do it. We'll get the Skimwalker. We've got time now.

We'll get it. So I did a, this is really interesting. There are two things, and one of them I won't talk about, but there are two things I've got chat GBT to bring up a warning banner and says it won't we don't go any further on it. And then why this one is so odd, I wanted to prove, I wanted to go through the probability that evolution could occur.

It wouldn't let you do this? I got to the model. So I started, we started creating a model. It's called a heuristic model, basically the probability of this, and then the probability of this. It's basically like the Drake equation, sure, but for evolution, right? But I kept getting it more and more complex and more and more complex and more and more complex until we got to the point where I said now now run the probabilities of this and And and it and it ran the probabilities and showed that it there's no way within

Many like hundreds is like a hundred to a hundred to a hundred to a hundred orders of magnitude that the universe has to be that old for it to have happened and I said then the only way it could have happened was through engineering intent that someone changed something in the model. And then a banner come up and said this is getting into theological discrediting or something and it said we can't discuss this any further. Now hold on, change something in the model. Epok transitions is a thing. Yes.

So it, chat GPTF doesn't know that? Well, but see, that's not that. The epoch changes the, from the radiation dominant to the matter dominant to the dark matter dominant, all that, which is actually interesting in my black hole paper, that actually is an effect. It is? Yes, it actually should have happened according to. But somebody changed something in the matrix, right?

Yes. And, well, chat GP doesn't want to accept, the AI doesn't want to accept. I've tried it with GROC to and with deep seeking all. So it's not just, I'm not picking on open AI. You tried it with like Kimmy. I've tried it with Claude. I've tried it with Claude, Deepseek, GROC, and ChatGPT. And they all come with the same answer, that it's impossible.

That somebody had to change, had to make some glitch, change something, right, for it to go down this path. Because there's so many infinite bifurcations for the probability. And, you know, it doesn't violate your religion in any way. way, right? I mean, anybody's religion, they said, God, God created people, well, or whatever, the universe. Well, this is how I did it. Right. Simulation theory in religion is the same thing. Yeah, I tell people all the time, if I'm going to create a universe, am I going to go get a cauldron and start putting in like, you know, witches brew stuff and hope it blows up and creates the thing I want, or am I going to get in an environment where I can control everything, which is

a computer simulation environment where I can create a physics engine and have Mario jump as high as he can jump and run as stand on one toenail at the edge of a cliff, you know, do whatever, and I can control that. And if I don't like where it's working, I can hit the pause button

and change a subroutine here or there and start it back up. Yep. That sounds a lot like the epochs that we just talked about. It sure does. I bring up all the time on this show is Philip K. Dick's talk in Metz and 77. That is one of the greatest, every, they should make every person in high school watch that speech.

Agreed. Philip K. Dick's speech is the most powerful speech by a man who spent his life writing art. You're making stories, science fiction stories. And, you know, a Blade Runner for you. Everybody knows what Blade Runner is, right? But Philip K. Dick, his stories, when you hear that speech and he's telling you, they aren't stories. It's not science fiction. They're my memories of an alternate reality.

that for some reason I can still remember and everybody else has forgotten. You see the faces in the crowd? Oh, you... What's great, though, because it's in Paris or wherever it is, it's in French, right? Yeah. And you hear the translator going,

and then you hear the... Oh, the murmuring. Right. That is one of the most fascinating speeches in the history of mankind, I think. Yeah, he talks about Man in the High Castle. He said, I just remembered this that the Axis won the war.

When he talks about the lady, that comes to visit him. Yes. That is bizarre and fantastic at the same time. Yeah, and I believe him. I don't think he had any reason to bring it up. Nope. Unless it was some kind of weird, bizarre, you know, hallucinogenic trip that he had been on or something. But I don't, his writing didn't portray that. No, it didn't. It was very matter of fact. Absolutely was. And for that speech, he believed, you could see, unless he's the best actor in the world, unless he's like, you know, George C. Scott or something, right?

He believed every word he was saying. And I think everybody should watch that speech because it's just unbelievable and fantastic. Totally agree. How does your black hole theory and your thoughts of simulation dovetail into your study of the Gnostic texts? Well, I think they're one and the same.

I think the Gnostic text, and not just the Gnostic text, but other ancient texts, the Mahabharata, baguwait Gita, various other Taoist texts. I think they're all telling us the same stories. But the Gnostic text specifically spell it out in great detail. You know, the prokrafan of John, the book of Philip,

they talk specifically about the universe before, this all-loving being. And then he creates sort of a companion being who gets bored out there in the infinite and creates a shadow universe. So that's Sophia getting bored. Sophia. So wisdom, getting bored.

Yeah. So Sophia is, you know, according to the Gnostic text, is, I guess, we use Sophia, I guess because we think she's female, or there's a female aspect to it, feminine aspect. But she's an explorer and goes through all of the heavens,

which is called the pleroma in the Gnostic text, and gets bored. So she creates a place to go and, have adventures in, I guess. But when she creates this dark realm out of the shadows, so the matter is apparently the shadow of the light beings of the pleroma. And when she creates it, this other being appears. And it's real vague to me how the Gnostic text,

or at least how I interpret it, did she cause this being, this dark being to occur, or did it just manifest? And it's called, the name is like Yowdabath, also referred to as the Demiurge. And the Demiurge is the god of the shadow world and believes he is the god, right? Right, but he's not.

But he's also a petty god, right? Because he doesn't want anyone to think that they're more powerful than him or whatever. And he creates these demons, the Archons, to basically like agents, to do jobs for him. And I find it really interesting because it sounds just like in the books of Enoch. where the All High has all these other deities, these angels or archangels or whatever,

to do certain jobs. Like one of them controls the weather. One of them controls this. That sounds just like in a video game simulation architecture. You have subroutines and agents to do all these different things, right? Sure. And I think the Gnostic, in the Gnostic text, the interesting part to me is how Sophia saw these beings. that the demurege was creating out of the shadow of the matter,

and they didn't have a spark of life. So she splits herself into infinite pieces, goes into this dark universe, and puts a piece of her in all the beings, basically the soul. And an apocryphon of John, the last supper is a completely different last supper than the one I was taught in Sunday school.

In what way? Well, so Jesus doesn't come there and tell them that he's there to save all the sins of mankind. Oh, no? Well, I mean, what happens is he tells the apostles that he is from the pleroma. Mm-hmm. And to get back, you have to go through the monad or become one with the monad, whatever that means, right? It's a doorway, is it, you know, your pineal gland, you know, whatever, I don't know.

But he says that the only way to get there is to be true to yourself and within, you don't need to go to a church. He actually tells them. Right. God isn't there. God is not in that church. church, it's in you. Yes. And he says, I'm here to return basically his mother, Sophia, all the sparks of her back to the pleroma.

And that's completely different than what I was told in Sunday school. Yeah, they buried it for a reason. Well, that leads me to think at that point that the stories that Paul rewrote the Bible, basically on his business purposes. Yes. is probably true because he wrote it in a way that you have to come to the church you have to sacrifice for the church you have to be submissive to the church

and that puts the church what? Oh, in control. In control. Right? When Jesus, according to the Gnostic text, said the church isn't in control of anything. You are in control. You have to reflect inward and be in control of yourself.

And that is completely opposite to the story that most of the religions are telling us. Right. Remember when the full Bible was found in Ethiopia all those years ago. Oh. And he said, what is all this? And they said, that's the Bible. He said, there's too many books here. Book of Enoch. Philip is in there, all this stuff. They're like, no, this is the Bible.

In 367, they took all, they threw all this away, buried it, and now this is the Bible. Well, I want to know who those people were in the 360s, 364, 367. There was a three or four years where they sat there and said, well, this book we will use. This book we won't use. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why would they say, take out, for example, Jesus telling the apostles in the book, Hocron of John, how to see the demiurges archons, right? Now, this is really interesting, and it's actually become an interesting experiment for Skinwalker Ranch, which I know we're going to get to. We're going to get to.

But he tells them that you can see the archons through your peripheral vision. Oh. And the interesting thing about that is he actually explains it. He says, because your eyes can see different light in your peripheral vision than straight on, he said, don't turn to look at them or you won't see them. And we now know that your peripheral vision can see further into the infrared than the center part of your eye. And how did he know that? Whoever wrote, even if it's a fictional story, written, you know,

2,000 years ago. How did he know 2,000 years ago? Number one, about infrared light. Right. And number two, that your eyes worked better for infrared light with your peripheral vision. So somebody knew something to tell this story, whether it's real or not. And that to me is at least enough evidence that somebody knew something that the rest of the world did not know. How? How? You hire a shark as your lifeguard. Technically, he's watching the water, just not for the reason you'd hope. There's a reason you wouldn't hire a shark to keep you safe in the ocean, just like there's a reason why Morgan & Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. Here's the truth behind the name.

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making sure your file never vanishes. That's part of how they've recovered more than $30 billion for their clients. Not all law firms are the same. Hire the wrong one and you may be beat before you even start. If you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan, and their fee is free unless they win. For more information, you can go to for the people.com slash why. So if we're, if our universe is inside this veil, do you think there's other universes like ours with their own veils with their own? You ever played video games on a server? Of course. Well, and you go to the lobby. Yep. Like, you know, Roblox, for example. There's 14 doors, right? You can go in this door and you play that Titanic game. Or you can go in this door and it's

kind of parkour game or you can play this game and it's a player versus player game, right? Well, you heard the story of Vishnu, right? From the Hindu text, Vishnu, as Vishnu would breathe, exhale or sweat, each little bead of moisture would become a new universe. And Vishnu would then take on different avatars in these different universes and have adventures. Yeah. Sounds a lot like that lobby we were just talking about. It does.

But I always wondered if Vishnu is just the game console. Wow. It sounds like it. Right? So that would mean that all these universes is really all the same spark, right? Yeah. It's all the same source. Yeah.

So who made it? I don't know. Who made it? Where is it? Where is it? Yeah, if there's the edge of the universe, there's got to be something else out there, but you can ask theologians and physicists, and you get weird answers, man. Well, because it sort of violates their sense of sense of,

sensibility, like the ancient one told Dr. Strange and Dr. Strange, right? Is that if a spell upsets your senses, then call it an algorithm, right? Right. We put too much emphasis on, it sounds like something that offends me, right? Well, science isn't offensive. Science is just there. I mean, it's just a thing. It's why there's no such thing as fringe science, right?

There's nowhere in the scientific method is the word fringe. nowhere in the nowhere and this is I will get up on anybody's soapbox and beat it with a hammer right

nowhere does it say anything about extraordinary evidence never in the scientific method is the word extraordinary evidence used the Carl Sagan did a huge disservice to humanity

by making that statement that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence no extraordinary claims require you to follow the scientific method any evidence is evidence

in the scientific method that must be analyzed. And when you add all the evidence together, do all the analysis, that's when you can maybe support or discredit the claim, the extraordinary claim. It has nothing to do with extraordinary evidence. It sounds to me like people say he had a change of heart or something at some point, like they got to him. I think so.

Because he was a UFO believer, and then he wasn't. You read that book that he wrote with the Russian guy. on, I forget the name of the book, but it was way before Cosmos. And it was basically studying the Drake equation and about the possibility of life and everything. And they're all like, well, yeah, there's got to be everywhere. Right.

And then suddenly, oh, no, I don't think there's life out there. It's probably not, and there's no UFOs. And you can watch even speeches that he did where he said, UFO should be investigated. And then, oh, no, there's nothing to it. Right. So it does sound like a lot of the conspiracy stuff that we hear, right, that somebody got to him,

It does. Maybe they offered him something. Well, one way or the other, if I hear scientists use that statement, I always, I'm one to a knee-jerk reaction and say, who taught you that? Where did that come from? That's not the scientific method. Go back and read the scientific method. And so I absolutely, I might make extraordinary claims because I'm from the South.

We speak in hyperbole and euphemisms and all sorts of exaggerations, right? But I never say it as a, it's the fact, right? Or it's the thing. I may say, holy crap, what is that? But then I might say, oh, well, it was just one of these. But then it might say, wow, it's one of those. Has your doctoral committee seen your paper yet? No, one of my advisors have.

The entire committee has not. What does he think? He said it was above him, actually. Really? Yeah. I can't wait to read it. I'll send you a copy of it. It's a lot of quantum field theory and general relativity kind of and thermodynamics thrown together.

It's a lot of graduate level math. But that's why most scientific papers are. It's all math, and unless you understand the math, it doesn't mean a lot to you. I always, my first PhD committee chairman, he told me, he took me to, before I did my final defense, took me to an elementary school and had me present my work to the third graders. And he said, if you can't explain it to a third grader, you don't understand it. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah.

And so think about this. If the phenomena is a strange effect in a just a weird mathematical formula, how in a, just a weird mathematical formula, how in the hell do you explain that to a third grader? You have to really, really, really think about it and really try to understand what it really means, you know, effectively to explain it that way. And so are we in a black hole? So I'm not the first person to say it, like I said,

but I think that if you do the math, you can narrow down on what kind of black hole we live in. And what's interesting is black holes outside of that five to ten solar masses, They got different physics in their universes. Different physics. Yes. It's a different constants. Yes, different cosmology completely.

So what kind of things are going on in those big black holes or smaller black holes? So every black hole isn't going to create a universe like ours, just those in that certain mass range. And so I find that really intriguing. It creates an infinite sort of possibility of types of physics and beings that could occur. It does. I don't know if you are aware of the Jade Project from last year, James Webb. Oh. They found that they looked at all the, like, the Farfield galaxies,

and two-thirds of them are spinning the same way, and it shouldn't work like that. Right. Why? Yeah, that's a good question. Why? So, you know, you actually, I've been thinking about that, actually, and you said something a few minutes ago that could possibly explain it, that the black hole, if there's black hole,

if there's black holes created within it, it should have some chirality, or if it has spin on the outside, then that should translate somehow to the inside. Yes. Well, what if our black hole is spinning with a certain angular momentum that's causing the majority of the galaxies

in our black hole to spin in a certain way? That's why I brought it up because there's a lot of these studies that seem to point to your paper. I'm excited about it. I really think there's something to it. I mean, I'm not saying that it's, you know, Nobel Prize winning kind of stuff,

but I think it's something unique and new that we can actually, if we start finding a way to peer into, we can actually get information inside a black hole now, right? And I find that, I find that intriguing. Now, I did something fun. I created a model black hole in IBM's quantum computer, the one called Fez, and then I created a wormhole

and I put one end outside the black hole and one end inside the black hole. Oh, that's a lot of math. It was hard to write the code too and didn't work in the computer. Now I'm not saying I actually built these. They weren't real black hole. Right.

But it was a simulation of a black hole in the quantum computer and I could actually send entangled photons from within the black hole to the outside and I could send information from within the black hole. And they would stay entangled. And they would stay entangled. Now, that's just, it's an interesting simulation, and too I can figure out a way to do more with it, right?

But you think about these things. We don't know how the universe works. We don't know how everything. So if you say you can't do something like, I was going to make this point earlier about when I was talking about the square root of four, Shermer, as always said, you can't go faster speed of light. can't these these things. Oh, and to say that these UFOs and these videos, if they were going

at the speed that we're saying they're going, they would make sonic booms and all these, ripped the air part and all this, said the air on fire, all this stuff. Well, that's one solution. But if you understand the physics of warp theory and general relativity, there was a paper written in 1999 that is called, the paper is actually called a view from the bridge because they were trying to see if Captain Kirk could actually get information from inside the warp bubble. And what they found was that information can't penetrate the front or the back of the bubble that it creates an impenetrable information barrier. And so anything will just move around it without interacting with it.

So if there's a warp bubble moving through our atmosphere, the atmosphere is going to move out of the way. It's not going to need to make a sonic boom. It's not going to rip the air apart. The air is just going to act like it's not there. Right. It's almost like a micro-universe. Yeah, it's exactly it. It's a pocket universe where I call it. Right.

But, yeah. And so the question there is, does Sherman not know general relativity at all? I'm sure he's a smart guy. He knows. And I know Avi Loeb does, and they're buddies. I mean, so why do they say things like that? Why do they say things like that just to say, well, it can't happen. If that was there, it would rip the air apart, set the atmosphere on fire. or or what if it was a warp bubble right and it was following the laws of physics as we understand them

we see it happen in water too yes oh there was a you know there was a project that darpa did back in the 80s called work uh project warp theory or warp drive project warp drive and it was uh they basically made a submarine that looked like a narwhal and the big nose out on the on the submarine had a little pocket little bubbles in i mean a holes in it and they would put out nitrogen gas and create bubbles, air bubbles, little bitty air bubbles that would go around, create a warp bubble of bubbles around the submarine so it would reduce the density of the water. That's right, the cavitation project. I remember this.

And so it could go faster than a submarine in water could go, it would go faster in the speed of sound and water, right, potentially, which is a warp bubble, but a warp in the water in hydrodynamics. not in space time dynamics. But so what? I mean, it's a neat idea. It's the same idea. It's just doing it in a different way.

We don't know how to create those little bubbles yet, you know, to do a real warp drive. Why do you think they're keeping it from us? I don't know who they are. Yeah. It always comes down to who they are. Yeah. And so I, you know, even if we put in the, I don't think it made it. I think there were some antibodies that edited out the first repeat.

that the UAP task force did back in like 21 or two. I forget the year. We had a page in there that said it's either us in a classified project that for some reason didn't reveal itself to us, right, which we rated as very low probability because we had access, right? It's a near peer, you know, China or Russia, but our intelligence network hasn't given us any information that it was that. it's Mother Nature doing something new that we've never seen before,

which is possible for some of them, but not for all of them, right? The ones that look like actual things is unlikely to be ball lightning, right? And then there's an oligarch or a group of oligarchs that are outside of working outside of the law or outside of any control, which would require a lot of coordination or in a lot of resources, which a lot of them have, right?

Or it was something else. And we didn't even say aliens, angels, demons. We left that alone. We just said it was something else. And that whole list of things got removed from the report. And I said, why? Why would you even? Because we were just showing that we were saying

there are all these possible solutions. It's like square root of four is two and minus two, right? That's all we were saying. Well, who has the authority to do that? that's the question, right? It's Pentagon. Well, so Jay Stratton was a two-star Admiral equivalent civilian Dysol, defense intelligence senior leader, right? Two-star equivalent.

I was a GS-15 equivalent. And we had, so there was another, another sort of partner that was working for what is now Space Force. It wasn't Space Force then, but, and he was a one-star equivalent. So we had some muscle. Yep. And we had, you know, the senior members of the Sissy and Hipsy on board. I mean, Rubio was our biggest fan. Yeah.

Those are the committees. Yeah. And so I don't understand who would have the power over them to keep us from, you know, putting certain things in the report. But there's an answer to that. Like, who called you, Marco? Because someone made a call. We just need to trace where those calls. end, but we can never get there.

Well, you know, Representative Birchett just told me that. Tim is a great guy from Knoxville, Tennessee. He's a hecklefish fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a good guy, man. So it's so funny. He invited Jay, Stratton, and I, to go to his house and brief him on all this. And so we drove up to Knoxville from Huntsville, Alabama.

Jay moved to Huntsville after we started hanging out together. He liked it, doesn't it? But anyway, we drove up to see Congressman Burchett, and he comes out on the front porch and cut off blue jean shorts. Oh, no. And his daisy dudes? Cowboy boots, right? He's got his firearm on his side and a Tennessee Falls golf shirt, right?

And he comes out and he takes us in the house, shows us all of his World War II firearms that his dad had got it, no matter what, got out when he was there, whatever. But anyway, and we briefed him. And he said that when you get there, you're there, you have all these great intentions or whatever, and you get there and realize that there's, they, he said, they will not let you do anything. And we were like, well, who is they?

And he says, the system. And I don't know if he actually knows, if there's a they to the system. I don't think he knows. I don't think he does. I think it's basically, everybody says, oh, you can't do that. You can't tell anybody.

You can't do this. You can't do that. And I think they just accept it, right? Our elected officials can't even do what we've elected them to do because of whatever this they or this system is. And that's probably what we call the deep state or administrative state, all these different things that gets in the political realm. And I'm going to talk about politics. I'm just talking about it. In general, humanity won't.

to know what their leaders are doing for them. Humanity is the problem because whether it's Burschard or somebody else, you get a phone call that says, do you want to know about aliens? You want to get reelected? Yeah, I suspect that's right. Yeah. I have a feeling that that's exactly right. I mean, I had pushback when Jay invited me to be on the UAP Task Force.

Pushback from... So my boss was a one-star equivalent for the Army. So he would have been a one-star general equivalent. Now, I had done some work for the three star that was over him before, but in a way that he didn't actually know my name. He just knew that there was somebody under him doing work, right? But Jay called it, I had to actually literally call my boss at the Army and say, we need Travis for the interagency task force. It wasn't called the AP Task Force yet. Is this pre- Arrow?

Oh, wait, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We, Jay and I retired and then Arrow became. all right uh we, we retired because we realized we couldn't get anywhere. Right. Right.

And we kept getting doors shut in our face. So, uh, anyway, uh, my boss was like, well, why do you need Travis?

You know, why do you need him? And he, and he said he's, and so Jay told, it's funny, Jay's exact words to him was, because Travis is the only guy that can understand the physics and knows

how to build shit. That's exactly what he told him. Because, you know, I grew up building stuff. We all watched it on TV. And our goal was to figure out if there was a heritage, a legacy reverse engineering program and to get into it and see why there was no progress.

And because here's the thing, I briefed all the way up to the White House. If there is a legacy program, who's the way. who's doing the work? Because I don't necessarily know personally all of the physicists and engineers that should be working on, but I know who they are. And I know that they're not

because I see what they are doing. You know that they're not. Yes. And I see what they are doing. And that's when Dave Grush kind of came along. So let me, let me, you know, I'm probably getting ahead of you, but... You are, but it's fun.

So, so Jay and that other person who still... didn't want his name out because he just didn't want to publicity. He's retired since but he just didn't want to get involved, right? But he, the guy that was in the space group and then

Jay and myself, and there was one other CIA scientist that was kind of in the top group that would hang out, you know, together afterwards, we called it uh, um, Jay called it, uh, whiskey and cigars because he'd do a

virtual meeting and we'd all meet like every Friday evening and talk about what we'd done. but so the the space guy he was he had Dave Grush on contract Dave Grush was not a civil servant he was a contractor right and he said well we need somebody uh that can go and we get them to do interviews because we don't have time to do all because we had just said j and i just got approval from the NASA administrator that we were going to get every living astronaut in a skiff and have them debrief with us, and they were to be told from the administrator

to tell us anything they know, right? And then COVID hit, and we didn't get to do that, but there's a whole other aspect to that. Well, who would have been alive then? Just Buzz, right? Well, you have the Apollo of the Apollo guys, you got, you had Buzz, and then you would get into the space shuttle guys. Oh, okay.

Yeah. And so you still had, And there were still several of the space shuttle. Mustgrave's still alive. You know, I don't know if John Young, Robert Kribbner, probably still alive. I don't know. I'd have to go look that up. What about Mark Kelly?

Would he have been on your list? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So every living astronaut, every astronaut that was alive, we had a plan, we had a schedule, and we were going to get them, fly them. We had budget to fly them to this gift in D.C. And we were going to meet with them for a week, have them to. come in and debrief with us.

So at the same time, we had the space guy, said, well, I got a guy on contract already doing some analysis for me. He's pretty good. I'm going to get him to start interviewing anybody that thinks

they know anything about the legacy programs in a skiff. And so that's what Dave Grusher did. He started interviewing people. So he was in Air Force intelligence? No. Now, so he was active duty Air Force for some time in his career.

Okay. And I think he was in Air Force intelligence in that time frame, right? But I mean, he wasn't high, I mean, he wasn't like a general or something. He was, he was, he was just a, you know, a normal career guy, right? Well, when he, when he got out of the Air Force, he started doing contractor, he's a physics major. I mean, he knows, he knows, he has, I know he has a bachelor's, he may have a master's in

physics. He's, he's a sharp guy. So anyway, and Dave was doing like, signals analysis, or image analysis or something for the space team. And so we put him to work doing that. And he started getting people telling him just all kinds of stuff. And so we'd give him to tell it. You debrief us on it or whatever.

And then he got a job offer to go to NGA as a civil servant, National Geospatial Agency. But he was still also partially under control from the other leader of the UAP task force. And while I was an NGA as a civil servant, he was asking some of these people questions

and somebody didn't like it and they had the inspector general started investigating him. And that kind of brings everybody up to the date of the stories that Dave has told. But what I just wanted to, and I want to be clear about something. I think people don't understand

the way he tells it is that to my knowledge, he's never seen anything with his own eyes. That's what I understand. And the way he has, and under discussions with me in a skiff, I've known Dave for a long time, it's, yeah, this guy told me this, right? And he's the guy that worked on it, he says. And then, so then our goal was get those people to say these things under oath. But we, getting them to say it under oath is the hard thing.

And so I think that's why Dave would, at least went and said it under oath that, hey, these guys told me these things. And I want people to understand that's the problem we have. We can't get anyone who's got their hands on it to come forward and say, yeah, I've got it. Here it is. You know, come help us.

Because the whistleblower protection doesn't seem to have any teeth. I think whistleblower protection in general never has any teeth, right? I mean, look at the, I forget the guy's name. He was the CIA agent that blew the whistle on torture going on at Guantanamo. He spent like five years in prison. Yep. I don't think he got the whistleblower protection.

No. No. So there's a lot of that, you know, and so I think they're scared to death. But you believe that there's a legacy program? Excuse me. Yeah, you know, is there a legacy program? Because I've had a few guys in here who would know and they all say no. but I don't know.

Well, I used to think no until I started really being a part of the community. You know, I didn't believe that Rob let... I believe that up until probably I went to Skinwalker Ranch that Roswell was most likely a classified program that went awry. And then when I started digging into it and looking in it from internal classifications and reading all the

documentation and all the... And now the fact that this fourth tranche of emails and things have been released from the government, and they show clearly that Twining actually said that they were phenomena. Yep. You know, I'm convinced that something was going on. He said it for one day. Yeah. For one day.

For one day he said it. Well, so when I was doing the Tesla files, that's another interesting thing. we found a document through a Freedom of Information Act request that Franklin Roosevelt had written a letter directly to Nicola Tesla in 1942 before he died asking Nicola Tesla how his secret war effort was going. You found that document? Yes, and we released it on the Tesla files. And we had a copy of that document from the FOIA request.

How was his secret war effort going? And everybody thought he was just on top of the hotel New Yorker playing with pigeons. With pigeons, no. So, I mean, there's that conspiracy theory that I believe is when he died, 60 boxes get taken out of room 3, 3, 3, 27, and before he come back. It was more than that. More than that. Yeah. And that's John Trump.

Yeah. It was Donald Trump's uncle. Yep. Right? And it's really interesting. He was in charge. He was, so it was Trump, which is also, he's one of the guys that shows up in the MJ12. conspiracy theories too.

He does. Right. But so here's the thing. We went to the Hotel New Yorker. You went there? Yeah. I got to watch the show. To investigate what was going on there.

And I had the building engineer come talk to me about the design of the building. Show me all the infrastructure. It was built back in the, so Tesla quit being public in 1927. You know when they started designing the Hotel New Yorker? When? 1927. Go figure. Go figure.

Right? And so we go and we look and they had three ginormous generators, the biggest that existed, put in the basement of that building to power the building. I read the same thing. But I saw them with my own eyes. You did. Yes. The generators, one of the generators would have been enough to power all of New York at the time. Right.

And they had three of them. And then I was running the stairwell during a break just as my workout. There's a 40-story building. I'm like, man, that's going to be a hell of a workout, right? And I get up to the 40th floor, and it keeps going. So I go up a floor, and I get to a welded shut door. Welded shut now. And I go back down the next morning and talk to the engineers.

So what's about on the 41st floor? No, not the 41st floor. Well, there's a door up there that's welded shut. He said, show me. So we took an elevator and walked over there. I've been the engineer for this building for a decade. I've never realized this door was here. And so, well, how do we get to the other side of it?

We went and found blueprints that were older, and they showed there was something there, and there was a corridor. And to get in there, we found there was a switchboard up there on the 41st floor. You know, like old school where those ladies would be there putting, plugging in the movies. You always see them plugging in wires, you know, to make phone calls. There was a switchboard, and it was about this far from the main wall that you could barely squeeze behind and get through.

And when you get on the other side, there was a laboratory. No shit. On the 41st floor. And there was a filing cabinet in there that had blueprints from the early 1900s in it. And we found, and I got to looking around the room, and there was a metal pipe about that big around. and we went to every floor in tracing. It went all the way down into the sub-basement, into the earth. And in the Warden Cliff Tower that Tesla built, they drove still pipes into the ground deep,

and he called them earth-grippers. Yep. Right? And when I started looking, there was a certain height that Tesla had calculated in some of his notes, but the building was about 50 feet short of that height. And we go up on the very top of the building, there's like an overlook, and there's a pole, kind of like a flagpole on top. And I said, what's there?

Oh, there used to be a ball up there. Just like Warden Cliff. Just like on Warden Cliff. And so, and this was, and he was there in, in 1942 when he died, and there was that memo that said, how is your secret war effort going from Roosevelt himself? So what was he doing at the Hotel New Yorker? I think it was a, a system to either,

collect energy or to detect energy. And it may have been a means of over the horizon communications to our Navy. We know he was working on all that stuff. Yeah. And could it have been something else? What you know, he talked about the, we did find that there was a number of, that we found a memo from, I forget who it was. It was one of the generals of the time of having all of the.

blockses from the Office of Foreign Properties. Alien properties. Alien properties. It's been a while. It was like 2016, I think, when I did this. So the Office of Alien Properties that pertained to Tesla's death ray to be sent to Wright-Patt-Field. That's right. The Wright-Field at the time.

But we found that memo. It says that. Where Blue Book was, I think, spun up at that time in Wright-Pat, wasn't it? Well, that would have been a little before Blue Book, because that was in the 40s. and Blue Book would have been in the late 50s. Right. So, I mean, they would have been, had the legacy of it, certainly. Something was there.

Yeah. Well, and so all of this stuff, we see now from investigating that we don't know what our history is. We don't know what's happened. And we don't have anyone who's documented it. And it's been compartmentalized in a way that nobody will ever know. So I do it. The property is supposed to have a chain of custody with all that stuff. Yeah.

And alien just means foreigner. Yeah, yeah. The reason why was his next of kin was a Serbian. And his nephew. Yeah. And so they... His nephew said, where's the rest of the stuff? Yeah.

So we went to Serbia. You did? Yes. To the Tesla Institute, whatever it's called. It's still there. And we had permission from the State Department. We had worked it for us to get to see Tesla's notes that they have in the vault there. and because I was wanting to see,

I was going to try and rebuild one of his experiments of the death ray, honestly, and transmission of power. And they bring out this book, they got the white gloves on, and they open up the vault, and they're wearing the bunny suit,

and they come out, and they'd set it down, and they said, so this is the first page, and he turned over one page, and he said, so you can see, these are Tesla's documents,

and I could see through the paper that the drawing on the next page was the drawing I really needed to see. And I said, Well, can you turn the page? And the, the curator, basically like the Hawass of Serbia, where, you know, he comes in, no. No. And I said, why not?

And he said, you don't have a research visa. You're here on a, I don't know, a work visa or something. I forget what our visas were. And our, and our producer came around. What? We have permission. We're supposed to the state department worked all this out. What are you talking about?

You don't have research visa. You can't. And they literally ran us out of the museum at that point when he saw that I was wanting to look at that next document. Did you call the embassy and said, I need a research museum. We did everything like that. And they would never, the Serbian museum there would never let us come back in to see the Tesla files. No, they wouldn't. How about that?

I believe it. And so that's the kind of stuff. Who told him that? Why did they not want me to see, you know, a hundred-year-old document almost, right? 70s or whatever, it's old. So why would they not want me to see that? That's so bizarre to me. And so that's that kind of crap that I've seen over and over throughout my career now,

and especially since I was on the UAP Task Force. That leads me to think there is a heritage program or a legacy program, but I don't think it's so disjointed and disconnected. We don't know who's in charge of it. We don't know where the information is, the documents are, And it may not even be in the government. I don't think it is. I don't think it.

I think it's likely, yeah, you know, Spilberg may have got it partly right with how he handled it in his new movie, right? You know, there was some like Lockheed Martin type or North of Grumman or whatever. I'm not going to say I've heard it was one of those. I mean, we heard Hal say in age of disclosure that they would just send that stuff to the contractors because FOIA can't penetrate. Yeah. Well, so now here is the, the, um, the, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, it's legal part that that we've seen about having been a civil servant for 28 years and having to do federal acquisition regulation contracts and stuff I'm very aware of what's legal illegal here

I'm not a lawyer I mean I'm but I'm saying I know what I would have gotten in trouble for sure so what happens let's just do a hypothetical that some government team recovers an alien artifact. They release a call for proposals to the people who have the right clearances because they're classified proposals, right? Calls and say, okay, propose for this and they award somebody, some contractor,

contractor X, a contract to work on this thing. As soon as they deliver the device or whatever artifact as government furnished equipment, GFE in the contract. They'll say that. This is GFE. Then it's in the hands. They're the curators of it, but it's still the government's property.

At that point, the government cancels the contract and says, we're going to abandon in place, and this is an official legal term used in the federal acquisition regulations, the government can abandon in place anything that they've left at a contractor facility, and the contractor can then do anything they want to with it. They can throw in the dumpster if they want. They can give it to their grandma. It doesn't matter. It's theirs.

The government says, I don't want to undo this anymore. This is how it works. And it's legal to abandon it in place. But then suddenly, that same contractor X bids on, oh, let's say a F-22 contract,

or a F-35 contract, or a future combat system's contract. And they get a $70 billion contract for 10 years. Then this guy, who is the government employee, tires. And guess what? He's suddenly got a job with seven figures working for one of these contractors. Yep. Now, that's what the whistleblowers told us. And that scenario we've seen happen without being alien stuff. We've just seen it happen. Sure. We all see it. Yeah. And so I'm

convinced that that has happened since the 40s. I'm convinced of it. I think Howard Hughes even said basically that that was what was happening. He didn't. He talked about anti-gravity ships and stuff. Yeah. So, man, I don't know. Is there a legacy program? I can't prove it. But I've seen so many doors slammed in my face or had so many people tell me not to look at that or talk about that or, you know, your career will be ended if you people think you're nuts, those kind of things. Why?

Why? What's driving them? And what's driving them to push so hard? I mean, since I've been on at Skinwalker, some of the antibody press has really kind of like this guy talking about my alleged education, for example. You know, some people read that and probably believe that I made it up, right? And all he would have had to done was do is homework. Yeah, that's Operation Mockingbird still in action. That's exactly it. You got it. And so who? is behind that. That is the big thing that bothers me the most. Because I spent my life since I was 17 years old as a civil servant serving the country that I believe in. And then I get to this point and I see that there's something else going on that we're not in control of what we think

we're in control of. Well, let's take a quick break. We'll talk more about that later. But when we come back, I want to talk a little bit of quantum mechanics, if you don't mind. I can always talk about quantum mechanics. We'll be right back. Okay, so you worked at U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command. Principal scientists of quantum entanglement and space technologies lab? What does the Army want to do? What's the Army missed around with quantum mechanics for?

Well, many reasons. One is, are there sensors that would use new methods of quantum physics that would give you more information on battle assessment, battlefield awareness, and so on. The other would be communications. If you can do quantum entanglement encrypted communications. And what I was specifically working on as my main project at the time was to create a satellite experiment that would use quantum encrypted communications

so that no one could eavesdrop or spoof or jam the comms to the battle groups on the ground. Didn't China just do this? Well, you're thinking of the, it's spelled Misha, so I think they pronounced something like Mosa or something like that. I don't understand Chinese spelling and pronunciations, but you're talking about that experiment where, yes, they did a, what's called a QKD, quantum key distribution experiment where they flew a satellite in 2016, 2017 time frame, and they encrypted a video transmission with their quantum key and did it from one point on one part of, the globe to another part, which was really impressive and exciting. There are a lot of people who tried to debunk it and say that they didn't really achieve it, but I was on one of the teams to look at what they did, and as far as I could tell, it was functional.

And it's really interesting, not tooting my own horn, but myself and one of my first mentors, Dr. Francisco J. D'Worte, Frank D'Orte, he and I wrote a paper in 2015 that Laser Focus World nominated as one of the, top 10 papers of the year. And we showed that quantum communications would be the key for encrypted satellite communications. And then within a year, the Chinese did it. And so at least we thought of it. But they did it.

But they went and did it. But my lab was a hybrid lab between University of Alabama, Huntsville and the Army, Space and Missile Defense Command, to get small. young folks in there working on it, hands on building the experiment, building the space hardware. And we'd already flown one project on the International Space Station for 28 months. And our second mission was to fly the quantum communications package. And we got the first prototype built. And then politics changed within the Army.

And some group said, well, we're the only group in the Army that's supposed to be doing that, so they pulled our funding and put it there. And we sort of limped along. But I also, that was about the time that I got pulled into the UAP task force. And so my focus was sort of reoriented. Well, I understand how quantum encryption would work, but why would entanglement be necessary? So that way you can, over large distances, create your key on both ends. Oh, that's right. So you have your entangled photons, right, flipping up or down. And if you measure over here, whatever it is, you know what the other one is supposed to be.

And so what happens is this person gets a key, entangles it, sends it over to the other person. And then they send through a regular comms channel, I use this basis, this measurement tool to measure it. And so then they take that measurement tool and do some, you know, adjustment to it, measure. And whatever they get then, it tells them. them what their key was. And so if they don't have both of those, the actual entangled piece and the classical comm piece, then you can't get the key. You can't open the door. And so it's a perfect encryption. And it's not breakable? Well, there are some quantum hacks that have been discovered since, but it's not, I don't think it's really been done in application. Right. It's theoretically

possible. In theory, you should be able to break it, I guess, instantly, right? Well, but if you do break it, the other guy knows that you broke it. So if anybody eavesdrops on you, you know that you've been eavesdropped on. And so that's useful as well, right? Yeah. And so that's what we were working on. And it was an exciting project. It was hard.

I mean, it's one of those things that, you know, nobody had done yet. So, I mean, it's other than the Chinese, but nobody had done it in this country yet. And the problem was, the problem with this country is for the research funds, you got so many people fighting and stabbing each other in the back over getting something done, that we're our own worst enemies in that regard. Instead of saying, oh, these guys have done great work, we should go look at what they've done, and maybe we can get funding to do something similar or whatever, instead of we better kill them and get their funding.

That's how it works in this country. I mean, it really does. And our scientific community, publication community, it's all a big Spanish Inquisition. It's a mess. Were you studying quantum field theory and then... decided to just write the textbook yourself? That is exactly what I did. What was wrong with the syllabus that you had to write your own textbook as a student?

Well, so what happened was I noticed that quantum field theory was on the catalog for the University of Alabama Huntsville Physics Department, but it was never offered. I went to the dean and said, why is it not offered? I've been studying. I'd want to take an official course in it. And he said, well, we don't have anybody that wants to teach it. And he said, I could, but I don't have time. And I said, well, tell you what, let me see if I can create a syllabus for you and write the course.

And so I started putting the coursework together. I got several other textbooks looking at them, like, read like stereo instructions, you know, instead of trying to explain it in a way that a student can understand it. And so to teach myself, you know, quantum field theory, I had, I mean, I had to learn it well enough that I could teach it to somebody else, right? Explain it to the third grader, so to speak. Right. Which is, that's a hard one to do, by the way.

Yes, it is. Who did you study to put that together? So there are, there's several books. The two main sets of books that I used were a book by Clouber and then one by Lancaster and Blundle. There was something like quantum physics for gifted amateur and one student-friendly quantum field theory or something like that. And then there was the standard textbooks that people have used. And I looked at what I found MIT coursework online. And just everywhere I could find information.

I'd read everything about this particular piece of it and be like, I don't understand what they were telling me there. This one I kind of understand. Then I figure out after putting it all together a way to understand it. And so I said, well, I've done all this work. It might as well be a book. and so I contacted the publisher who published my rocket science book. And they said, we would love to have a quantum field theory book.

First graduate course in that? Yeah, we'd love to do that. And so I spent the next year putting that book together. Did anyone take your course? Well, I haven't taught it. Oh, okay. The book just came out, you know, six months ago. Oh, it did?

Yeah. Okay. So I just finished it, not, you know, not long ago. And I've already found a couple of errors in it, so I'm going to have to do an updated edition or something to fix it. But that's usually what happens with textbooks. You teach a class in it, and the students find where you made a mistake. And so I'm hoping that somebody adopts it. And they'll get notes from professors said, well, there's error here.

That's happened with my rocket science book, too. Yeah, I get emails from fans and scientists saying all the things I got wrong. I heard about that. Were you working on decoherence when you were in the lab? So a little bit. One of the things that we were really interested in that I, me specifically, was how do we know, or how does it know to deco here? What is the thing that triggers what is called the collapse of the wave function in quantum physics?

And there are a lot of people that debate it, that people still think that or want to argue with you that, no, it's just statistics. And there never was this live and dead cat in the box. but we've done experiments that suggest that it is a superposition of two states at once. The cat's alive and dead in the box at the same time. But for how long? So, you know, Penrose, Roger Penrose... This is what I was getting at.

...has a theory called quantum gravity, and it's not really tying gravity to quantum physics. It's just what he called it. That based on how much mass an object has is how long it can stay in this superposition of unknown states, right? Like the cat's alive and dead. But since the cat is so heavy, it's like, you know,

billions of a second or something, a nanosecond or even less, that it could be in flux. But an electron, for example, whose mass is tiny-tained in the minus 31 kilograms or something, that's so small you can't even imagine. So many zeros, you know, that it can stay in that flux for almost forever,

unless something interacts with it. And so, where is the middle ground where there are big things, big enough things that you can watch and see it happen? And I think there were some experiments done with a micron size, a millionth of a meter size nanotubes, like carbon filaments, like the size of a human hair, something like that, under certain field conditions. And they've been able to see it perform at both states at once, meaning it's that the cat

is alive and dead in the box. It's just a little bitty box. Sure. And a very cooperative cat. I've always said, I don't know how I showed any good. was going to get that cat in the box in the first place. Now, a cat will jump into a box if you leave it there open. Right.

But you can't put it in there. But you can't put it in there. Cats do what they want to do. So Tegmark says that decoherence is almost instant and warm, wet environment. Yeah. That's not really true, is it? Well, that's the warm, squishy brain idea. So what you're getting at is quantum consciousness, right?

And Penrose and Hammer Hall. I'm thinking about birds' eyes and quantum tunneling through all. Al factory senses, even before we get to consciousness. Well, one of the things that led me down this path was my first child was born in 2004. And when my wife was pregnant, I remember watching all these videos about, well, at this stage, the baby grows, this happens, and this happens. And I go, how the hell do they know? Why does it do that? And nobody knows why these things are happening.

they've watched them so long, they say, this is what usually happens. It's just observation, it's not knowledge. And what's triggering these things to happen and how does it know? And the things happen in ways that seem faster than they should be able to happen. They still don't really know. No, they don't have any idea. No. And so, now I've got to think, well, if you get a splinter in your finger,

the immune response happens immediately. And it's much faster than the ion. channel to travel from your arm up to your brain and back down your brain and back to say send stuff there right so could it be through a quantum connection through an interaction and that's what led me to start studying penrose and hammerov's orchestrated objective reduction and the and the warm squishy brain thing right and you know there for you know people who haven't really paid attention to that the idea is that there are these proteins in your brain and there's more of these proteins in your brain, then there are grains of sand on the beach or stars in the universe.

Triptophan? No, they're called tubulence. Oh, the microtubes. Yeah. Okay. And the protein, the tubuline protein. Oh, it's a triptophanes of the amino acid in those. Yeah.

Okay. Go ahead. So Penrose and Hammeroff hypothesized that these tubulins can trap an electron like the cat in the box, right? And so that protein becomes what's called a cubit, a quantum processor. Mm-hmm. And that's what we're building right now at Google at IBM, you know, these quantum qubit processors. And where the programs that we've built quantum computers physically, there are tens to hundreds of qubit processors. There are like 10 to the 20 or so of them in your brain.

And so does it matter if they decoherre quickly? This is where Tegmark didn't pay attention to engineering. Right. So even if they do decoher so quickly, there's 10 to the 20-something of them. That's a good point. And they could be decohering, but they could be reinforced by the next one not being decohered yet, and so on. Triptophan does reinforce these. Well, and there's other, so here's the thought about that.

Is there architecture in your brain to do error reduction? That's why you would, you know what? When you do error reduction in computing processing, you add. extra processors. Right. Guess what? There are 10 to the 20-something of these processors in your brain. And so I believe that your brain is a quantum computer,

whether it was organically grown, designed by, you know, the Ananaki or whatever you want. I don't care. But that's what's happening. And it led me to write a book in the early 2000s called The Science Behind the Secret. And I was watching, my wife and I were watching these, it's when the secret came out, it was all popular, no one. I don't know, there was people on Oprah talking about it. We all read it.

Yeah, we all read it. And they started talking about, well, you know, it's like electromagnet, electromagnotism. And I'm like, well, that's not right like electromagnetism, because in magnets and electricity, like things repel each other. And you're saying, like things stay. And said, the only thing that does that I know is quantum physics. because in quantum

quantum wave functions will have constructive interference if the wave functions are similar and they'll be destructive if they're dissimilar. So like things would stay and unlike things would go away and that started leading me to think,

well what they're saying in the secret isn't, they're not physicists, they're like self-help people, philosophers, whatever. They don't understand what they're saying but they're saying it right. Right.

And so I started looking at the quantum physics of the human brain and how the universe works. And it led me down this path of looking into ancient texts, even more so than just for things like from ancient astronaut hypothesis, right? More than deeper than Van Danik in, you know, more of the William Henry sort of direction. Sure. And it led me into really wanting to understand quantum physics at a level of,

is there an observer effect that are we influencing every experiment, everything that happens? And here's the thing that gets me. is how do I have dreams of people I don't know in detail? We all do. Yeah. But you know them in the dream. Yes. And I know these environments in the dream that I've never been to.

Is am I that good at making up stuff? Or is my brain in idle mode and the noise floor is brought down because all my other systems are shut down? and I'm connecting like a quantum transceiver to other quantum transmissions that are happening, and I'm decoding it. And I'm like playing that game. I'm part of that reality for a minute. And that leads me down the path that because we don't understand dreams,

because we don't understand things like DMT, because we don't understand that when people are hallucinating, that their brain function actually goes into a coma-like state instead of hyperactive, that leads me to think that we're doing something more on the lines of detecting quantum information because you've got to, it's very sensitive to noise, right? And so if you brought the noise down, then you're seeing things that aren't usually there or detecting things that aren't usually there or having experiences you don't usually experience. It suggests to me that sounds like quantum physics.

Well, you brought up DMT, so we've got microtubules that are loaded with triptophan, which turns into triptamine, add two methyl groups, and now you've got DMT. And your brain is full of these amino acids. It's just can't be an accident. No, it can't be an accident. That sounds like it's the best video game system ever created, right? Yep. I mean, it's better than NeurLink.

You ever do DMT? No, I don't. I've had a security clearance since I was 17. Oh, yeah. And been susceptible to drug tests and lie detector, the polygraphs, for a very long time. And so the only advice that I have is occasional alcohol. Fair enough. I broke my clearance.

It's a weird world when you go into the DMT world because it feels so real. I've had a lot of, so as you can imagine, doing this kind of thing. They're cameramen and sound guys and people who have been in the entertainment industry. and they don't have such rules and regulations. And they tell me many stories. And what's really interesting to me is how the Hiawaska and the DMT stories, they all say the same thing. Yeah, they see the same creatures.

They have the same experience. Why? Right? I don't know. I've seen the mantis being. Really? I don't know why. And I don't think it's because you were front-loaded.

Nope. It didn't feel like it. It seems to me more like, like that looking from your peripheral vision to see things that you can't normally see. That's a good segue into Skinwalker because we have to talk about it. When you got to the ranch, you were there to debunk it, weren't you? Yeah, man. When I got there, I knew it was going to be like Scooby-Doo, man.

I was going to get there and it's an old man withers, you know. And we had got away with it. We weren't for these meddling kids. You find Withers yet? No. No. I've been there for eight years and have yet to find Old Man Withers. In fact, I'm more confused today than I was before I went, you know, after eight years.

What was that first experiment, that first reading? That means you go, wait a minute. So, I mean, I had literally been there 30 minutes to an hour. That's it? Yeah. First time to visit, Brandon Fugel, the owner, flew me in on his helicopter. We landed at the helipad, we got out and had lunch, and then walked up to the top of the mesa where they had just put out a new sensor. They were going to show me the sensor.

and I carried a spectrum analyzer with me as we went. And the other scientist there had one with him, Eric Bard. And we were there up on top of the mesa. We just got there. And then suddenly my spectra mantelizer pegged out in the microwaves. And I mean pegged out. Like not popping popcorn on the inside, but if you were popping popcorn and held your microwave detector right by the door,

that's how much microwaves I was detecting coming from everywhere. Wow. And what was the frequency? It was around 1.6 gigahertz. And that's, you know, that's right where GPS is. That's where space to ground. GPS is 1575 and iridium is 161. Yep. That's a busy frequency. That is a very big, it's all space to ground to space kind of stuff.

And it was pegged? Pegged. And it was coming out of the ground. What is it? I don't know. I mean, I looked for it. I was like scratching my head, running around crazy. Like a, you know, a chicken with his head cut off.

off, not understand what's going on. I was literally like a cockroach in a microwave running around. Yeah. I was running, like trying to figure out what was going on. Well, you drilled, you dug? What's down there? Don't know. So we drilled in a spot where ground penetrating radar told us there was some big anomaly in there.

And when we hit something and we put pressure against it, 8,000 pounds of pressure against it for like minutes, many minutes. and you'd think a drill bit would have got hot didn't it cooled off, which is odd. The friction would have been enormous unless it were frictionless. Odd. Impossible. Impossible. Right.

Unless it were frictionless or something. But what we found in the spoils pile when we pulled the drill bit out were these pieces of metallic fragments and they were ceramic like. And when we went and had them analyzed, they were, they had been sent. and built in a blast furnace in a way that the experts in the material in the metallurgy lab said were like tiles on the space shuttle that are used for reentry or there's on starship now right they use the same kind of tiles it's not the exact chemical makeup but were built or are manufactured in the same way so there's something manufactured inside this mason it was this was 377 feet in and 78 75 feet I think down was this an alloy it's a mixture it was a compound of something it was a compound so it was made it was made yes what was the what were the metals what were the components well so it had a little bit of aluminum in it oh what's really interesting is it had a mixture of 50% aluminum and 50% ironed in some of the metal fragments which we don't do that we don't mix 50 50 aluminum and iron no why what is what is that where did that come from and then the ceramic like fragments had

all sorts of materials in it like there was some thorium there was a there was so that's radioactive yeah it was very low level it was very very very low level it was uh what else was in it there was of course there was a lot of carbon there was a little bit of aluminum

there was it was almost like aluminum cutting blades it was almost that kind of material I originally said it was kind of like a brake pad you know right I thought somebody's buried a car down in there, right? But it wasn't exactly a brake pad, right? It was more like it was hard on the outside and more fragile on the inside.

And we took it and put it in an electron microscope at University, Utah Valley University, in the physics department there. And when we hit it with electron beams, it would open up. And when we turned electron beams off, it would close back up. In exactly the same configuration, it did it every time. Like self-healing metal? Well, that's what we thought it was. We thought we were blowing holes in it.

at first and it was healing itself, but it appeared to be more like an umbrella that it was opening and closing, or a pom-pom when you put it in a static electric field, or your hair will stand up and then it will go back down. It seemed more like that. But we're still doing a lot more experimentation on that to figure that out. And some of the metal fragments we found were in layers. It had the iron and aluminum mixture as the middle, the Oreo part, and then the cookie part was on one side was almost pure tellurium, and the other side was almost pure europium. And that's really similar to how we build solar panels. And that's really odd also, you know, how did that get inside this mesa, you know, 30-something, at the maximum height or the closest to the surface that our holes got to was 30-something. you know, 30-something, at the maximum, the maximum height are the closest to the surface that our holes got to was 38 feet down.

But the materials, we believe, came out around 78 feet, 75 feet down, and 370-something feet in. How big is this object, according to the GPR? Well, it's like 20 meters wide, and it could be as much as, you know, 50 meters. It's like a cigar shape. It's cigar shaped. Yeah, it looks, it would tell you what it looks at. And there's smaller pieces all around it.

It literally looks like, like an airplane crashed debris field. It literally looks like something crashed into the mesa and there's pieces spread out in there. I mean, and here's the most bizarre thing. We were looking at the material, the metal fragment, and from the elemental analysis of it, the night we found it,

using equipment we had on the ranch. And I said, well, it's not a meteor fragment. And the Eric Bard said, well, the only thing it's missing to be a meteor would be to have some nickel in it. The next morning, the archaeologist pulled out of the same spot, 370-something feet in, 70-something feet down, a 1964 nickel. What is going on in that? How can a 1964 nickel get inside the mesa? It can't. Well, so we went, so, and I just freaked me out, right?

Our archaeologists said, well, that means there was a dig here. So what do you mean? He said, oh, it's a standard protocol. The archaeologists are trained that when you finish a dig, you drop a coin from that year in the dig. So future archaeologists will know there was a dig here. And he said, I'll bet you anything. There was a dig here in 1964. So I went and got, man, I'm in the other guys, we went and got every publicly available aerial photograph of the property all the way from

1935. And what's interesting is from 1963 to 1968, 63 is the last one, and then 69 is the next one. There are no images from 64 to 68 that are available publicly. None. Zero. I don't like it, man. None. Can't be.

And so it's really bizarre that something happened there, and it's been covered. And we wonder, there's this mythos of people say bad things happen to you if you dig on Skinwalker Ranch. Makes me wonder if it was more of a nondisclosure agreement saying bad things will happen to you if you dig on Skinwalker Ranch. It sounds like it. I mean, we were talking earlier. I said, I didn't really watch the show because I thought it was like another Oak Island thing. And you're like, no, man, it's all real what we're doing there. Yeah.

What did you find on the ranch that compelled you to go to Washington and getting a skiff? Yeah. So, well, that first day when I started detecting these microwaves, they were at levels that would be in violation of FCC regulations, right? Oh, I guess it could jam the satellites. Yes. Oh, so that. And I was like, this is, somebody's doing something nefarious is what I thought. I thought, is it Russians?

Is it Chinese? Is it some kid doing something stupid? Think about the battlefield disruption if you could do that. Oh, Lord, yeah. And none of our GPS stuff would work. Right. So I'm thinking, oh, somebody's jammed. and GPS and why?

No guide and ordinance? Well, think about airplanes landing at an airport. Right. It really was kind of freaking me out. So I went to my, I had a security clearance. You know, my day job was still with the Army, and I went and told our security guys. I said, well, I don't know what to do with that. Let me see, we can call around, see who you need to talk to.

And they kept handing me off up the food chain. And at the same time, one of our other guys that was there with me that day, one of the scientists on the team, he had contacted some contacts. And they kept doing the same going up and trying to figure what. And eventually we got handed off to, well, you need to have a meeting with these people in the Pentagon. And so, all right, so I flew up to the Pentagon and briefed them on all the data. We were going to Skiff and these two guys come in. And I noticed that one of them had a copy of my alien invasion book, which is a serious book I wrote in 2003 with one of my mentors in the intelligence community, Dr. Bob Bone.

We were at a three-letter organization meeting. Is this a serious book called Alien Invasion? It's a textbook on how we would defend the planet and what we should be doing to prepare. Okay. So, yeah, we were in this meeting. You know, two years after 9-11, we're in deep in Operation Anaconda, all that stuff's going on. And so this is a top secret meeting on how to come up with clever ways to understand asymmetric warfare and all this stuff, right? You know, we were on the high side.

Of course, the Iraqis and the Afghanis and all those were on the low side. So we're in this meeting. and this three-star general makes this comment. They go, oh, we need to put ourselves in our enemy's shoes and walk a mile in so we can understand how to think like them. And I laughed. And at this time,

I was, you laughed out loud. Out loud, yes, yeah. At this time, I was like a GS-14 equivalent. And this was a three-star.

And he got harumped, you know, and my boss, my mentor just, he's like, oh, what's, I know what's coming.

now but our boss was a one-star equivalent in the three-letter organization and and he kind of looked at me like I don't know if you should say anything but you know you have something to say and said well sir uh our poor people have xboxes and and two TVs and a car in the driveway and they have a hundred dollar shoes it's unlikely that they'll ever be able to understand these these people that we're fighting because they have a completely different world they live in the only way Americans would ever be on the low side of asymmetric war was if we were invaded by aliens. I was doing a typical southern thing explaining by exaggeration. Well, the general just kind of rolled his eyes and moved on.

So after the meeting, or at a break in the meeting, we're in the break room, and I'm getting a soft drink or whatever. And the three-letter boss comes up to me, three-letter organization boss comes up to me. He says, what would we do if we were invaded by aliens? next question. And I said, we'd probably die. Oh, no. And he said, well, do we have a plan? And I'd say, well, I think you would know more about that today. He said, well, why don't you two look? And he's talked to me and my mentor and said, why don't you two look and see what you can come up with? And so we spent the next year studying warfare, warfare models, intelligence models, technologies. And it led us to, we kind of threw together this book on all the things that we'd studied.

And, of course, we briefed it at other levels, but we asked, we said, can we publish this as a book? We're sure, we don't care. And so we did, and it's interesting on the cover of the book, the first version of it, the chief scientist of the NRO actually put on there that it was fascinating. So, anyway, we, so I'm in, move back to where we were with the Skinwalker story. So I'm in this room in the Pentagon, this guy's got a copy of my book. And it's got some post-it notes in it. And after a bit, he asked everybody else to leave, but me. And he says, I'm Jay Stratton.

I'm the director of the government's present UFO program. And I was at Skinwalker Ranch in 2009, or whatever year it was. I think it was 2009. And he said, I'm aware of what's going on out there. And I'd like for you to come work for us on the UAP. task force. It wouldn't call that. At the time, it's called the interagency, interagency task force. And it was, that's just how we referred to it. It was no official title for it. But it was official and funded. It just didn't have an official title. I think for a purpose, right? Right. If they give it

a title, then they have to worry about explaining it to somebody. Right. ATIP was not an official title, right? ATIP was never an official title. So what it was, Ossap was actually a contract. Right, that's Bigelow's program. Yep. And what it was, they actually released a call for proposals. And Bigelow Airspace was the only company that responded to the proposal. So, I mean, they awarded a contract. Sure. And then when, so the interesting thing about that, and the award, the award, original award was for $20-something million. But some people in the Pentagon found out about what was going on, didn't like it, and pulled about half of the money.

And I think Bigelow, I don't, I mean, rightfully so, got pissed, you know, they didn't get all the money that he was supposed to get. And so what you got from the end results of that was just a final report written by Eric Davis and Howe put off or whatever. And none of the details of the findings, and everybody thinks Bigelow still has something hidden away somewhere here in Vegas at his facility, you know. I whether that's the case or not, it doesn't matter. I mean, what the government got was what they got. Right. And I don't think he's hiding anything. I don't think Bigelow's hiding anything at all.

In fact, when we've talked to him, he doesn't have any desire to go back to the property. He thinks it was not beneficial to him and his family, right? And by the end of it, they were so perplexed as to what the hell was going on that I think they just kind of gave up. And while he was happy to get rid of it at the same time, he's still curious. I think him and, well, I know him and Jay still talk a lot. And I think him and Brandon talk occasionally as well. Brandon Fugle the new owner of the property. Well, I think Bob wants to know what's going on.

He just doesn't want to pay for it. Well, I get the impression that he became a billionaire by not wasting his money. Of course. And when I talked to his team members of time, they didn't have a lot of funds and a lot of resources. Right. I mean, they would get stuff when they needed it. And here's the other thing. In the 90s and early 2000s when they did this, the technology that we're using today,

would have cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars, and we're paying 50 bucks or 100 bucks for something. That's such a really exquisite piece of equipment now. So just due to, you know, more potential, the new, the research we're doing out there now is way better funded. It's way better documented. I mean, we've got better equipment. Just because technology and improvement, right?

Before we get back to the ranch, can you tell me what's an alien invasion? What's our strategy? What are our tactics? So I created a model. Well, first is to be. prepared. That was our first thing, was basically the Boy Scout motto,

be prepared, right? And we're not. No. We're not, we don't, we, when we talk to people within the, the services and the agencies, they all said, we treat it like any other invasion and, and do reconnaissance and then decide on a tactical plan. They had no strategic plan, right, for this. It's all going to be, we'll treat it just like any other warfare.

But it's not going to be like any other warfare. No. If they can travel from here to there, they're going to have levels of technologies that will look like magic, and we're going to have to think about that. And we even actually came up with scenarios that were religious invasions, political invasions, you know, magic, things like that, that we wouldn't really, or time invasions. One of things that time invasions. Yeah, it was think about, think about like this. I use Independence Day as a perfect example. People don't think about what was going on in Independence Day.

They say, well, that ship crashed here in the 50s. or whatever, and we hadn't reversed and engineered much on it, well, did it crash here in the 50s for the aliens? If that mother ship was approaching it and slowing down from near the speed of light, and they sent the scout ship out there, it could have been five minutes on board the ship. Right, right, and they could have been, they could have known that and been done something to prepare us

in a way that would embed weaknesses into our systems, right? So we're not thinking about any strategic plans like that. And so I created from what's called Lancaster's Laws. It's where every video game engine, every combat model, everything is based on. And they were created in 1917, Enrico Fermi should have known better when he did his stupid Fermi's paradox thing. We could talk about that, but it's just stupid. You think his paradox is stupid? Where are the aliens?

Yeah. That's the dumbest thing. because he based it on exponential growth model. Yeah. And there was no known species period in history that's ever grown that way, and especially with no competition, et cetera. And the way predator prey species work was known very well, and it was created a set of laws called Lancaster's Laws in 1917.

And that's, like I said, Lancaster was given money by the War Department to study predator and prey models to create models for warfare. And it worked very well. Otherwise, call duty wouldn't work the way it does. Right. Right. Fortnite wouldn't work the way it does. All these things wouldn't work the way they do.

And so anyway, if Fermi would have known that, he would have realized his question was using math that didn't fit the model. Right. He said, well, I'm going to apply this math that we know doesn't fit any known species and say, well, then all the species in the universe of all radio. overrun us by now. Well, but that's not the same model. It's, it's, it's, it's really bad science. It's really bad science. And for a Nobel Prize went in Manhattan Project physicists to have done that, I call that the famous scientist phenomenon. Sure. Just because he was famous, everybody believes it, right? And I say, I refer to it as Fermi's blunder. I don't refer to it as Fermi's paradox. Right. There's no such thing as elephants. Why not? I've never seen one. That's right. I've never seen one.

And, hey, people think that reindeer can't fly. Have you ever seen them not? Right. Just because you haven't seen them, it doesn't mean they can't. They just choose not to when you're there, right? So that's that square root of four thing again, right? So where were we going with it? Lance.

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I created a model in detail on a modern invasion scenario. They accounted for everything. Mobile forces, ground forces, air forces, air forces. artillery, blue on blue, which is, you know, self-infliction. And everything I could think of, embedded in the model, and then started running scenarios of invasions. And I would give the invading force, force multipliers.

Like, for example, it would take 10 hits of a 5,65 round, you know, before it would penetrate. And they have armor or force fields or whatever. Is the call of duty bullet sponge? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And I would give them speed. Maybe their mobile forces were three times faster. I tried all sorts of different scenarios. And basically, in no scenario did we win. And I did something like 100 to 200 different scenarios. And the only one that I did find a solution where we

would win, it was really interesting. I said, well, let's try Independence Day. All of them at once. They come here and they invade us. And let's say that, they can get reinforcements back from their home world, say, every 20 years, and to some amount of reinforcements. I gave them numbers, right? If they started with some numbers, say they had 100 start with, and they could get 10 every 10, whatever it was. And the invasion starts, they pretty much wipe out 90% of the population in the first, you know, day.

But, now here's the scenario. every human being of the age 14 or older, which I just guess that's the age old enough to carry a weapon, was carrying a weapon or in some form or fashion supporting the war effort. Every female of fertile age was pregnant with triplets. Okay. And at that point... This is the way we went?

Yes. Okay. And at that point, the population starts in cycles increasing to a point where we had a resistance basically an asymmetric situation and after about 40 years it became too expensive for the aliens and they would either completely be attreated

or give up and leave and when I got to look at the model I realized I just recreated the Soviet Afghan war yes in the 70s yes and that's exactly what happened right now the only thing different is the Afghanis did have a

a symmetric organization feeding technologies to them. They did. You know, we gave them, you know, anti-aircraft weapons and stuff, but, or anti-helicopter, mostly. But that was the only scenario where we, is if we create a, you know, a resistance movement, we repopulate as fast as possible. And so I was thinking, you know, fertility drugs, whatever. Was it America only or the whole world?

The whole world. Yeah. So that has to happen. too. Yeah. Everybody's got to get in line. Yeah. Well, so the onslaught at the beginning would just remove, you know, government lines.

That's true. Yeah. It's just, it's Terminator at that point. Yeah. Yeah. I got to read this. It's kind of dark. Yeah, it's, it's, it reads very, it was, it was written like a textbook.

It was dry. But it, but it, but it, it is to say, all right, somebody needs to look at this and realize we're not doing it. You know, one of the things that, um, that Jay and I had planned to do, and It's one of my plans I've written about, I've talked about, that the first thing you have to do to create a real team is they have to have a common nomenclature. And so for the first month, two months, I would have the entire team watching every science fiction movie, reading every comic book, watching every cartoon. Because I'll give you a perfect example. John Ringo, best selling military science fiction writer, and I co-authored a book called Von Neumann's War. It was a science fiction basically of Von Norman probes came here and we started defending against them.

Well, I had one of the, they did this in the book. They had a team where they got together and they spent like two weeks cramming on every sci-fi thing they could. And somebody realized that in the second season of Justice League Unlimited, there was an episode called Dark Heart. and Dark Heart was a Von Norman probe generating device crashed on Earth and started creating Von Norman probes, replicators, going everywhere. And they were eating everything and reproducing themselves. And the entire Justice League couldn't defeat these things. It was Superman and all of them, you know.

And it took the atom, Ray Park, Dr. Park, to realize he had to go down in nanoscale and find their main processor chip that had the program to replicate. and turn it off. But, spoiler, I guess. But I had the nomenclature to be able to tell people, hey, what if it's the dark heart scenario,

and we need to figure out if there's something like how they did that, you know, or what if, and not to, you know, throw rocks at a Stephen Spielberg movie, but if you ever saw the mini series he did that made Dakota Fanning famous taken?

Yes. And if you watch Disclosure Day, they're the same plot. Yes. Did you notice that? Of course. They were the same plot. Everything.

I didn't love that movie. Yeah. I was hoping for, it was, it was not bad. It was a movie. It was a Spielberg movie. Yeah. It was, but, but my, my point was, I just used a previous nomenclature to tell you what this scenario was. And now I don't have to go and figure out a way to explain it to everybody.

Right. We have a common language that we can speak. I could say, oh, you remember that episode of Stargate SG-1? Right. Right. Where they did this or that. Or you remember we had a conversation earlier. Star Trek. Where I brought up Star Trek Next Generation, the episode of the threes.

Right. I get it now. Yeah. And so that's our common nomenclature. And I wonder if we've been doing that by accident on purpose. That's interesting. Yeah. I hope so.

I hope so too. Speaking of your books, your first book I think was about a physicist who does something that gets like the government. angry or the cabal or something like that was that warp drive so uh warp speed warp speed well it was a little it's a little it so it was about a the first group of uh scientists that uh that build a warp drive demonstrator and they they go to it's a space shuttle era so this was written in 2000 uh and they go up to do the experiment on the shuttle and um unbeknownst to them, of course, there are some bad guys who realize that a warp drive would be much better than a nuclear weapon. Sure, it was.

If you slammed an object into the planet at, you know, speed of light, you know, you'd crack the planet in half, whatever. You know, I don't know why people would want a weapon that would do that unless you're planning on fighting a whole planet. But, and so there was a lot of mayhem that ensued with that. And it turned out the sequel to that actually, I went more into what that cabal was, and it didn't have anything to do with great aliens from Zeta Reticulai. Well, you eventually, you spent a lot of time in the intelligence community, so what did that author get right? What did I get right in that? What did you get right?

That over your career, you're like, well, shit, I wrote about that 10 years ago. Yeah, so, you know, I had to, before I could release those, the first ones, I was heavy into the I see stuff, and they had to pre-read it and, and do do adopters, what they call it now. You know, say you can release it to the public. And then after I started being more prolific, I wrote about four or five science fiction novels all at want. It comes and goes in surges, right? And so the review team was like,

we're not going to keep doing these. You know if it's classified or not, don't put it in there. If you do, you'll get in trouble. Right. I mean, that's basically. And so they said, we're not reviewing your science fiction stuff anymore.

It's science fiction. And so, but I've always done my best to make it hard science. as true to possible as it could be with as few magic wands as possible. Of course, there has to be a magic wand that we haven't invented yet, or it's not as much fun. I mean, would Raiders of Lost Ark be as awesome if the Ark didn't do what it did at the end? No, you need the faces to melt.

Yeah, you have to, right? So that's kind of the way they are. But I did things like with security, clearances and, oh, you couldn't carry a cell phone. Like, that's one of the things that kills me about Stargate SG1 is they get a lot of it right, but you'll see them in the, in the facility with their cell phones. Yeah. And I'm like, there's a lockbox right outside the door that you know there's no cell phones

in there unless they had some kind of alien technology that allowed them to have super secret cell phones that they could do that. But there are a lot of little things like that to get on my nerves when I see that. How close was your warp drive to like the Albuqueri drive? So it was basically an Alcubieri. Was it? Yeah. So explain how that works.

Yeah. So in 1994, Miguel Akubieri wrote a paper called something like a hyper fast travel within general relativity. And the paper showed that if you created a, basically a dip in space in front of you and a bump in space behind you, that that spacetime itself would push your spacecraft. Not, you wouldn't need propulsion, you know, exhaust or anything. It would just, space time would move it. You just fall. Yep.

And keep falling. Yeah. Right. And you can make it fall as fast as you want to. Arbitrarily fast speeds, he said. But the problem with his paper is he showed that it took basically all the matter in the universe, uh, energy wise to create that. But immediately.

But, so, but that's okay. he showed that it was doable within the theory of physics as we understand it, our standard model. And then that says, okay, then if he can do it this way, are there other ways to do it that makes it, you know, actually engineeringable, engineerable, I guess. Anyway, so immediately before he wrote it 94, before 2000 there were, I'm going to say 100 papers written, where they kept incrementally getting his theory better, the idea. idea better that, okay, we could, and it got down to say, oh, the mass of a star, and then, oh, wait, the mass of a planet. Now, and, you know, I recently had a paper published about a year ago in a journal British and planetary society that showed that if you made layers of material, and you had the warp field in the material, that you could get to almost no exotic matter requirement.

and it's not the mass of a star or the mass of a galaxy. You can get down to actual numbers that we could actually engineer. I think I read this paper. Is this about the electromagnetic field through the waveguides of the metal? It's similar. That was one of the papers. There's a paper like that I use as a reference. Okay.

But I'll send you a copy of it. It actually shows that the idea is you can modify Einstein's equations in the material. Mm-hmm. Right? So it's like you don't change the speed of light in the air. You change the speed of light in the material that is the whole of your spaceship. Which really, I got the idea from some of the whistleblower statements on how they, number one, also from the original arch parts. And I can't talk about the stuff without talking about Art Bell.

He's on my list. Yeah. So back in the 90s, I was a master's degree student in physics at the time, working for the Army. in a directed energy weapons laboratory. And I heard Linda Howe talking about the parts that she had received or that Art had received and that she was investigating that allegedly came from the Roswell crash. And so I emailed Linda Howe and said, I'm a scientist with the Army. I have a laboratory.

My boss says, okay, I could use the lab at, you know, have to work hours. Well, hang on. If we're going to talk about this, let's set it up. So someone calls our bell and says, I've got this stuff. And he says, if it's real, send it to me. and they did, and then Art sends it to you. Yes. After I emailed and said, I'm a scientist for the Army, I'd love to.

Right. And he said, so Art and Linda Howe said, okay, we're going to send it to you, and you do what you can do. And so they sent me all the information, then a copy of the letter that the guy had sent to Art Bell. And so I got the parts and I started investigating them. They were really interesting. They were layers of a magnesium zinc alloy. And between those, there's like one orio. cookie on top of another and the double stuff was pure bismuth and it was really thin like i think it was

like four microns or something like that really really really thin and they were stacked together and there were tens of layers and they weren't delaminating they weren't peeling apart and uh every attempt that i did and i anybody that i know and i even know that some folks at the skunk works tried to reproduce them and they could never reproduce the material without them pulling apart and i know that even at the skunker works, they destroyed a million dollar piece of equipment trying to reproduce the parts. And so since we never could reproduce the parts, number one tells me somebody spent a lot of money or got really lucky if it was a hoax trying to do it. And then my other thought was, okay, it was for something.

Well, in the letter it says, if you get it in a million volt static electric field and expose it to certain frequencies that it'll do things. So I built a million-volt static field generator And then I put the materials in there And I found that when I hit it with a particular frequency I don't remember exactly after it was around 30 to 40 megahertz I know that's interesting that number comes up It is right

It's around 30 to 40 megahertz that Every single time Once it was charged up to a million volts And I would hit it with that The object would either move directly towards the antenna Or directly away from the antenna and it was repeatable. Is there video of this?

There was. I videoed it all sent to Linda. I think it's on her website, actually. Okay. This was in the 90s, man. I would think the military would want to talk to you about this. Well, they never did. Okay.

And then when I got on the UAP Task Force, I realized that the parts that Tom DeLong had were the same parts. The same exact parts? Same exact parts that I had sent back to Linda Howe when I was done with him. Tom got arts parts? Yeah. Wow.

And so his team were looking at it. And there was a guy that was working. So somehow they were, you know, Tom and Jay knew each other through circles. And so Jay was very aware of the research that had me connect with them. And I told them what I had seen. And they had tried it. And they said they had seen, I think, similar things. and nobody had still been able to reproduce them.

And this is 20 years later, right? So in 20-something years, and see, I never had any funding to look at it. I mean, I just did it on my own spare time after hours in the lab. And so Jay and I were going to do more with it at this point. We were supposed to get funding for the UAP Task Force to look into these things. So my point about art parts is I'm not saying they're alien. I don't know what they are. but whoever made them had some purpose for them.

Sure. And if it was a hoax, it was a dang expensive or clever hoax because we haven't been able to reproduce those same materials in the same way and keep them from falling apart. You can't organize bismuth at the micron level. Well, so the way we reproduced them was vacuum vapor deposition. Uh-huh. But it peeled off every time.

and so I don't know how this was put together. And it's really interesting to me there's a, there's a sort of a random jaggedness to the interface between the Bismuth and the metal part. And Hal put off, and Eric Davis, they suggested that it was some sort of fractal pattern that enabled it. And so I got to looking into it, and if it is a fractal pattern,

then perhaps what it's doing is creating points where cohesion can actually have where it can stickiness, right? Like vanderwalls between the points that are close to each other. And maybe that's what's helping hold it together. But that's just a hypothesis. And again, there's not been any money really spent to reproduce these things or reverse engineer them. The same problem happened with the Kona Blue thing, right? that, you know, that's where Hal was supposed to get

some parts to work on and got right up to the end and then some people had it crushed and didn't let, didn't give them the parts. That's right, Kna blue with the K, if you guys want to look that up.

How close was that, that sandwich technique to what you found in the ranch? So, when I first saw the metal flakes that had the aluminum iron coated with the tellurium and uropium. You said coated?

Well, so it's like, the center substrate is a it's maybe a tenth of a millimeter of aluminum iron alloy and then on the top on one side well top or bottom it's up but on one side it was almost pure tellurium and on the other side it was almost pure europeum which is clearly manufactured but why i don't know and so that just because it was layered like that is is the one thing that i thought was interesting uh that was similar it looked like Like visibly, it looked very similar to the arts parts material. Would that stuff conduct electricity? Oh, yeah. The aluminum iron mixture? Are you talking about arts parts? No, the stuff you found in the garage.

We conduct. Yeah, and I'll tell you what, the ceramic that we found, it was really interesting because it was paramagnetic, if not superconducting, at room temperature. At room temperature. Yeah, we could hold it over a magnet and it would jump away from the magnet. And this is a ceramic-like material. We put it in a liquid nitrogen bath, and it would never cool down.

So, and I mean it continually boiled off at a high rate the liquid nitrogen. So it's energetic ceramic? It's doing something that's not letting itself cool down. That's all I know. We let it set for an hour in the liquid nitrogen and had to continually refuel, and the liquid nitrogen was boiling off at a rate faster than standard liquid nitrogen bowl off. Are you guys just standing around like, I don't know? I don't know what it's doing.

That's exactly what we're doing. I don't know. What the hell's going on? And I've never seen anything like this in order. Now, the really weird thing, we need to reproduce this many times before I'll really stand up and down and say there's something to it. But I took a, we called them dollies on Rocket City rednecks because they wouldn't let us say Sharpie on TV. But I took a dolly and I put a dot on one side of the ceramic material. And then I put it in a metler balance.

And I held a magnet above the thing. and I tested many times to make sure I found the range where I wasn't affecting the balance and I held a magnet over it and got the weight. Then I just flipped over the material and repeated the experiment. One side was always heavier than the other. Wow. And we did that like 20 times. That day we had the materials in the lab.

And it was the average over the 20 times was always the one side was always heavier than the other. and it was the same side, it was always heavier than the other. I don't know if this is the right term, but have you ever heard of flux pinning? Yes. In fact, that came up. It did?

That came up in, yes. Do you have to explain that? That's crazy, this came up. Flux? Okay. So that's basically the Meisner effect. Uh-huh. Right?

So if you take a superconductor and you put it, whenever it becomes superconducting, and you typically see this in the videos, they'll pour the liquid nitrogen over the little ceramic block, and then it'll start. floating. Well, so as soon as it becomes superconducting, it sets itself up interior-wise that it is mapping out the magnetic field it's exposed to currently.

Now, if you change that magnetic field, the superconductor had already pinned the flux inside the superconductor in a way that it will always oppose any changes so that the magnetic field stays the same inside the superconductor. So that's why if you touch it, it'll spin itself back to the orientation for the magnetic field. It's that way you can thump them there and spin forever because it's trying to get itself back to where the magnetic field is the way it was when it first became a superconductor. Yep. And so we thought about this. Well, is it possible that this is room temperature Meisner effect that we're seeing happen?

And, but we were hoping that we would see other superconducting properties. And we haven't seen. but what we do see is something that it's paramagnetic like, which is light superconducting like. It's like there's almost superconducting, and it's kind of what we call paramagnetic. And so this is one of the most baffling. So this is another one of the things we can't explain

is coming out of Skinwalker Ranch. Let's say quick break. When we come back, I want to know what can shut off a drone at 3,000 feet. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So seven years of instruments have sketched out something on that property where GPS doesn't work, and what is going on with the drones?

What can shut off a drone at exactly the same height? That's really bizarre, and how? Because the drone comms are encrypted. And so if you're talking about the experiment that we actually just showed this past week, I think. At 3271. Yeah, so we got up to just over 3,000 feet. It's really interesting over the years.

We've flown weather balloons, helicopters, rockets, drones, all sorts of things. Well, drones can't go higher than 400 feet without special permit. Right. But we've flown all the way up to 10,000 feet above sea level, a little bit higher, maybe 11,000, because we've measured anomalies there with instruments. And the weather balloon we launched there went up to 70,000 feet. And we measured stuff all the way up through to about 20,000 feet.

There were high electromagnetic fields that were surging on a perfectly clear day, and the instruments acted like they had gone through an electrical storm. And this happening up in the atmosphere? All the way from surface upwards, in that one spot over the property. And what's really weird is we've launched balloons before, and air currents will take them and they'll go miles and miles and miles. But we had one day where we launched a balloon there and went straight up and came straight down and landed on the property.

That shouldn't happen. No, it shouldn't happen. No, that can't happen. Are you kidding? I've done a lot of high-out-to balloon launches with instruments on them. And I find them in the next state, you know, I don't find it, if you find them at all, right? Yeah. And so we flew one that had a tracker on it.

And when it got to 5,000 feet, it vanished. The tracker quit working. The balloon went away. We literally sitting there watching it, and then none of us could see it anymore. Did it ever show up? Nobody ever found it. Nobody ever found it. And we never found, and it had a tracker on it.

Tracker just went away. And so we've, we hit a, so a few years back, we, we, had an anomaly where rockets kept messing up around 30 feet above the launch pad in this one spot 30 feet around 30 feet and in fact we had a big one we spent a lot of money on building it had a lot of instruments in it and at 31 feet it exploded and so we were doing an experiment with a high-speed camera and a rocket in the same spot and there was a flash of light and then the rocket exploded at 31 feet and then in the high-speed infrared camera there was an appearance of an object overhead that was tens of meters across.

When it looked like Galactus's helmet in the video. I mean, it has a, like a Vika, it had a thing like this. But then we found it in another camera that was 90 degrees off, so it was orthogonal, and it looked exactly the same. So it suggests geometric symmetry, like a sombrero. Yeah. Right? That's kind of what I'm thinking.

It's like a sombrero. So it wasn't exactly opposed to as an angle, so it had to be. It had to be symmetric, or if you. you look at something that's in another dimension. Yeah. It always will look the same. Right. It's like a hypercute.

Yeah. So it was the Tesirac, right? Or Tessorac. So it was one of those things that made that, you know, I said for fun. But what we have, the data, what we have was when we hit this thing at 31 feet, the rocket exploded. There was a flash of light and the object that we captured, whatever it was. We couldn't see with the naked eye, but in the infrared, it was setting there over our heads at 31 feet. We referred to it as the blob because it looks kind of like a blob.

I tell you this is weird. We found a Navajo sand painting that looks just like what we saw in the infrared, which I find really odd, right? Yeah. What a coincidence. But anyway, so we've continually seen anomalies, large energetic anomalies in this location. And so we put a terrestrial laser scanner, LiDAR system there,

to map out and see if we can see anything in there. And what came back and has been repeated 20, 30 different times now, with multiple instruments that there is some sort of bubble that's 2,000 feet in radius that is expanded over the property. It shows up every time in these terrestrial laser scans. And we've used more than one instrument and more than one brand of instrument. And it shows up. And we've measured now with the drones flying through this area where the bubble is,

their 5 gigahertz communication signal is completely cut off while they're in 120, foot thickness region where we estimate the bubble is according to the LiDAR. So we were like, well, let's go up to the top of it, the 2,000 foot spot. That's what we're trying to get to. And also when the balloon had gone up and we'd got measurements, there was a big hit on electromagnetic energy at 3,200 feet. So we were like, well, maybe there's something at 300 feet. And then there was another one at 5,000.

Same frequency? Well, with the balloon, it was broad spectrum instrument. It was a bucket. Right. So it was the drones that told us the 5 gigahertz thing because they have two calm frequencies that are encrypted. One's around 5 gigahertz, 5.something gigahertz and ones at like 2.45 or something, right? And it's interesting.

But it's strange that we've got interference at all these frequencies that we use. Yes, I know. It sounds sort of design, doesn't it? It does. So we were hoping to get the drones up to 5,000 feet because a lot of people think we're just doing a drone light show because these guys are like super light show guys. The sky elements, they did the Wolverine and Deadpool thing at Comic-Con, you know.

I think they're in Guinness. Yes, they're the most drones at one time. Yeah, right. Well, but what people don't understand, to do those shows, they have the most precise navigation systems on those drones in sequence than any other system on the planet, right? I don't know how they do it.

Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah. And there's something like, 61 or something like that instruments on each one of these little drones. They're measuring everything from magnetic fields to electric fields to to inertia changes to gravitational. They're measuring everything. So they actually are exquisite scientific instruments.

The lights is just a benefit. Right. And you can see it visually and track them with cameras as well. So we designed an experiment. We were going to take a bunch of them, like a hundred of them, all whipped 5,000 feet. And nobody had ever flown, swarmed that high.

They had to get special FCC and FAA waivers to do it. And so they were doing the test flights first with just four of them. And they got four of them up to, and it's really interesting because while this experiment was going on, I had COVID. And so I had to stay in my Jeep with instruments and stay a long way away and just watch it from a distance and just kind of be a spotter, right? And I felt like crap.

So as the drones were going up, everything looked normal, and they were chasing them with one of those drones they race with. They called them an FB, first person viewer drone. And so it was going around like 50 mile an hour, zipping around them as it going up. And it gets to a point where something just literally pushed the FPV drone away. And the guy said, I've never seen anything like that. And we've got that captured. You see it here, and then suddenly, boom, it's just like something reached out and grabbed it and just slung it.

I mean, it's like, you know, superhero kind of looks. looking stuff. Yeah. And then the drones go a few more feet up, and you see the lights start blinking. And then they do a quick jump to the southwest, and then something just turned them off, and they fell straight down. And they fell from 3,200, I think it was 3217 or something like that, 3,200 feet, give or take. And they fall all the way down, crashed, straight down.

I mean, I'm in the field, you know, just outside the bubble of 2,000, feed away, you know, and guys, take cover of their falling right on top of me. What the hell's going on? Is everybody okay? Somebody say something. And I know they're ducking under cars and stuff. They don't have time to talk to me on radio. But, um, uh, and so they look through the software and something encoded into the drones while they were flying a subroutine that was a kill command. No way. And this wasn't like interference. No. Something literally told them to turn themselves off. But here's the thing. Didn't tell them to turn them off.

It was a kill command. It literally said the subroutine was literally the guys said, we've never seen it. We didn't code this. We don't know what it is. It's a kill command. It's a what do you mean kill command? It says it means to kill it. It's going to crash itself into the ground as fast as it can from 3,000 feet.

And so they repeated with a new set of drones. And when they got to that, to the exact same thing happened again. Subroutine. Yep. And so this is where they said, okay, we're not doing this again tonight. It's expensive. Yeah.

Well, those drones are like, they told us because three years before we had what we called Dronegetten. Yeah. And so they were going to fly a thousand drones, 600 of them at the triangle and 400 them in the Eastfield out. So one's inside the bubble, one's outside the bubble. We didn't know about the bubble yet. But we had an anomaly out there and anomaly in here,

and we want to see if they were connected. And so the idea was we thought the anomalies were localized. We're going to create a cylinder on each end and surround the cylinder, to surround the spot where the anomaly is with a cylinder of them, and then fire a rocket up through the middle, so if someone's going to get out of the way, you'll see the drones move. That's a great idea. That was our experiment plan.

And we were doing that simultaneously on each end. Well, the drones, they practiced off property, and they were accurate to within a microsecond. Okay? They bring them on property. and they could only get of the 600 that was launched fine the day before or somewhere else, they only get 400 of them to go up. And when the 400 got up, they launched seven seconds later than they were supposed to.

Then ours went up. Ours got up on my end. They created the cylinder and started going around the anomaly. And then on the other end is theirs get up to, they got to about 30-something feet, and then they started going crazy, and they jumped to 70-something feet, and started falling out of the sky. But they weren't just falling. They were physically chasing people.

What? One of the guys literally took his leather jacket off and was beating them off of camera guys. And on my end, we hear over the radio, it's raining drones down here. Everybody getting your effing cars? Get in your cars. And on my end, our cylinder formed. But when they got there, and the cylinder was 300 feet tall. Now, these drones are like a five-pound brick.

Okay, so they're battery. They're all battery, right? So you imagine dropping a five-pound battery from 300 feet. If it hit you in the head, you know, you're not walking away from that. Nope. And so we're out there, the cylinder's up, and there's the action camera guy, me, and another guy, dragon. We're there about to launch the rocket. And suddenly we hear thud, and we turn and look, and the camera guy puts the camera light down on the ground.

And there's one of the drones between us. And we look up and there's another one coming right there. Holy crap. Everybody, we scatter, you know. And we get up there, and the drones are just, they start chasing. us. The cylinders following us. And they even had a fence. So we had a safety procedure. If something goes wrong, we were to run to the southwest because the drones were geo-fenced off with the GPS. It could not go there. Well, they didn't care about that geo-fence. They kept chasing us

and dropping drones at us like bombs. And that continued for a good five, ten minutes, something like that for all the drones, finally got on the ground. And they lost, we added up, they lost something like a million dollars in that experiment. And the company was like, I think they do, you know, one every day, somewhere in the world. And they're making so much money. I think it was, to them, they just kind of smiled and said, well, we learned something. And we're like, yeah, you learned you lost a million dollars for the drones. But so they ruggedized them for the next year and so on.

And they keep bringing them back better ones, but something still keeps affecting them. And this was, you know, three generations from Droneageddon, and these drones still, when they got to this spot at 4,000 feet, something managed. to get inside them, change the code, and force them to kill themselves. Could they do another iteration to prevent the code change? Well, I'll have to say stay tuned on that. Something tells me it doesn't matter what they do. I, you know, it's so funny to me that there, of course, the skeptics and things in the toxic

verse out there started saying, well, you guys could just program the drones to do all that. I'm like, yeah, for a million dollars, have you seen what a documentary series budget actually is? It's not that. No, it's not. Not for one episode. That's basically our entire engineering budget for a whole season. So it sounds like there's something there that is sentient?

That doesn't want, I mean... Well, so the Bigelow guys left us with a narrative. In fact, I think it was Colonel Alexander that actually made up the words. Or it could have been Kelleher, but I've heard Alexander say it of a precognitive, sentient intelligence. Yeah, that's his. Right. and that's what they said they think the ranch is. I don't know, but precognitive, that means it knows what we're going to do ahead of time.

Well, I ask them, does that mean that the future is written and I can see it, or can it detect your intent? And he's like, we don't know. We believe, and this is purely from belief with our personal experiences, anytime we've done something on the fly, we've surprised whatever it is. That's interesting. because we found the blob that first rocket night where we hit whatever it was over the triangle and we saw it in the cameras.

We were supposed to do a different experiment and something fell through at the last minute and we didn't have anything to do but we had the crew and we're like, well, we got to do something. And I said, well, let's just go to the, we got this high speed camera guy. Let's just take it out to the triangle and shoot a bunch of rockets and just see if anything happens. And we did and something happened. And that was like literally we thought of it in like 10 minutes went and set up and started doing it. and we've seemed to, you know, maybe sneak up on whatever it is when we do things like that. And so we believe when we add an intent to something we're about to do, that's when we get a response from the property.

It either hides itself or makes itself visible for us to notice if it wants us to do something or don't want it. I know it sounds stupid, crazy, whatever. I remember laughing at the guys the first day I met them when they said the ranch will, respond to me. They said it responds to different people in different ways. And I laughed and said, it's just a piece of property. It's dirt. How's it going to respond? Every skeptic comes back with the same story. Like, something's going on me. I don't know what it is. I was as skeptical as they could be when I went out there, man. And I've been out there. This would be my eighth year. And I still, I know there's something. I'm not, uh, people say, are you an experience or whatever?

I say, no, I'm not an experienceer. I'm a knower. I know that whatever is there is something. I just don't know what hell it is. Is there other properties like this around the world? So I believe there are. We did a brief foray into some other places because we're planning some maybe some future experiments. Maybe in Dulcee, New Mexico. Oh boy. Out at Secret Mountain. Yeah. Out at Mount Chasta. Yep. These are all the places. Mount Wilson, perhaps. You know, there are some places. There's a place in upstate New York, too. And I don't remember exactly what it's called, but we've had a lot of people reporting phenomena back to us from there. Somewhere it's wilderness, you know, in upstate New York.

All the native tribes have stories about these places. Yeah. Well, you know, upstate New York would have been like what, the Mohicans probably. Sure. So any of any of that, but that's an interesting point you bring that up because the Aboriginal species of the locale seem to somehow be more in-tuned or connected to whatever is going on. on. The Navajo and the Ute really, really are connected.

Like the Navajo don't even like to talk about the place. You know, they'll even, they'll turn away and look away from it if they, you know, get close to it sometimes. Yeah, Manchester, the tribes don't go above the tree line because that's the dwelling of the sky people. You don't go there. So, you know, that's, what do you do with stories like that? You know, I had a, I was at work one day. This is before I retired. This is before I started just working from home as a consultant.

I was working for a company called Radiance right after I quit the government. And I got a phone call. And this lady says, Dr. Taylor said, yeah. And she said, I'm the eldest female of such and such tribe. I don't want to say who it is because I don't want to get anybody into trouble or whatever. I don't know if you get them in trouble. They didn't give me permission to talk about them. Fair enough.

But she said, and we've been debating on talking to. you for a couple of years now and we finally took a vote and decided that we needed to reach out. I said, yeah, you and about a million other people, lady. And she said, no, I really am who I say am. So this is my name. Go on the internet and look me up and find a phone number to contact me. And then you'll know. I said, that's fair enough. So she hung up. And I look up this tribe and I see the elders and there's this lady's name and a phone number for her, you know, for the tribal center or whatever. So I called there and said, hey, this may sound weird, but this lady says, oh, Dr. Taylor said, yeah. She said, hang on. And they transferred me and the lady picked up the phone.

It was, it literally was her. And I said, oh, okay, so you got my attention now. Yep. And she said, so they told us that they bring you inside the mesa all the time, but you refuse to remember it. Oh, it just gave me chills. And I said, what? What is she talking? And I said, who is they? She said, you know who they are. I said, no. I don't know. I don't have any idea what you're talking about, lady.

And she said, they told us that they are bringing you in to show you what's going on at the property at Skinwalker Ranch and that you refuse to remember it. And I said, what, you said, I can't remember it. She said, no, they said you refused to remember it. And we wanted you to know. We felt like you needed to know this. and I was like, okay, who are they? She said, the sky people. No shit.

And so then I like, okay, thank you, ma'am. Thanks, I'll keep that under advisement. What do you do with something like that? I don't know. Well, so this is all, this is linked to something that we just talked about. So, I was, while I was working at this same place within days of this phone call, Jay and I had hooked up with some people who had a private black ops kind of group that if we found something that was down somewhere, they were going to try to get to it before somebody else could. And so they had hired this remote viewer that she's supposed to be like the remote viewer presently.

And you know, Paul Smith verified it. So I'm like, okay, if Paul says she's real, she's real. And so she called me and she said, Dr. Taylor, are you, do you realize that they've taken you and you don't know it? No, I'm not getting into this abduction stuff again. And she says, after the call with it? Yeah. Okay.

And I said, what are you talking about? She said, oh, it was years ago. She said, I can see it. They're showing me now. I'm like, oh, you're talking to them now. And she said, yes. And, you know, this is one of those things, but remote viewing is real, and I understand the physics, the science of that, that we've measured it.

We know it's real from statistical variation and stuff, but. Well, after the story, I want you to explain how that works. Okay, but, but when you take it this far, with, you know, you're saying it works, but, but you don't want any part of it? No, no, no, no, no. When you take to the point where I'm physically, telepathically talking to aliens right now, that, that's where I'm like, well, how do you prove that? And I can't, you know, this comes down to campfire stories.

And that's one of the things I always try to avoid. Physicists don't like unfalsifiable. Yeah, yeah, it's not pauper falsifiable. So what do you do? So she says, yeah, they said you were young. I'm going to guess 15, 16 is what I'm seeing in the images. And you were in the desert. And they took you and you didn't remember it.

I said, lady, I live in Alabama. Everything's green as far as I can see. And so I didn't. And so I didn't think anything else further about it. And then we sent a team to a place in Arizona called Secret Mountain. And there's some natives there kept saying that they had seen UFOs flying into the mountain, pretty much like it's Ken Walker Ranch. And Shasta.

And they go there and they, and I'm looking at what some of the footage that they're showing, some of the film or video. And I'm saying, that looks familiar to me. Where is this? Where did you guys stay? And they say, we stayed in a little town. There's one little town there. It's called Holbrook, Arizona.

And I went, Holbrook, Arizona. When I was 16. No way. My brother was in the Air Force and was stationed in Holbrook, Arizona. And I went and stayed two weeks in Arizona with my brother and his apartment. He stayed, if you want to call it, it was like a little quadplex that four town homes of one that they were all Air Force. I was living in up on top of a big sand dune effectively.

And the base was two trailers and two radars and a chain link fence. And there was like, I think, a high school and that was it. There may have been a 7-Eleven or something there. And I stayed there for two weeks. And all I did was either go and play when they did PT, they played softball every day. I would go play softball with them, hang out with my brother. Otherwise, I'd sit and watch TV during the day or read books. And that's the only time I'd ever been to a desert before I went to Utah.

but I was 16 when I went there. Just like she said. Just like the lady said. And the fact that those stories came to me almost within a week of each other. That close? Yes. And all this, it was, it's one of those things that shakes you.

You're like, I don't believe it. But at the same time, I'm like, how could she guess that? Yeah. How would she guess that? That's the thing. Because I hadn't thought about that. I just wiped it out of my mind about it.

even, I didn't even really thought about it much. And you don't remember anything happening. I don't mean, of course, no, I don't know. I don't remember anything. I don't mean, being at the ranch now weird crap happens all the time, but I, I have crazy, I had night terrors for the first three years I was there, never slept at all. At the ranch? Yeah, at the ranch. It was terrible. So I'd wake up screaming, and it was, it was, it was wild. But I think my brain got numb to it after three or four years. And I, I still have them occasionally when there, but mostly I've gotten where I can kind of sleep there. So it's, it's unusual. I think it has to do with the microwaves that we keep measuring.

I think it's messing up my rim sleep. But you said that you hooked up EEGs to some folks and saw some weird activity in the brain, right? Yes, we've done that many times. And in fact, we've seen what is typical fighter flight response is happening. That's obvious when you see it. But we've seen other types of influences on the brain waves that you would be like in a sensory deprivation tank instead when you're not. And so I find that really interesting. And I wonder about that because we've had people, it's as close as you and I,

where somebody's pointing at something. And since it's right there, don't you see it? And others are like, man, we're not seeing it. Or we've had somebody, I was literally sitting at a table just a little bigger than this. There's about six or eight of us around the table. And a guy sitting between me and one of the other guys just collapsed into seizures. And we took him to the emergency room, and they said it looked like it'd been exposed to microwaves. And he did.

And his memory was basically wiped of about four hours of the day. And he had like his eye, he swelled up and was like bloodshot. We've had that happen to cows. What happened to your finger? Yeah. So that happened right after, that's funny, I'd always told the guys the first few weeks I was out there that I thought they were all bat shit crazy. Mm-hmm. And we were at Homestead too.

And we were looking around. We got a ground pin. We've got a guy pushing one of those lawnmower-looking ground-penetrating radars around, and the one scientist is over there with him, and I'm over behind Homestead 2, there's this cistern behind us, basically a water tank that they used to make in the houses. And so I'm like, well, there could be radon gas or something down in there. I want to check it.

I'm going to pull this lid back and hold my gamma ray detector down there. And so I pulled on the thing. It was pretty heavy, and the camera guy was standing right over me looking down. as I was holding my gamma ray detector over the hole. And I was sitting in such a way, like one knee on the ground and one hand on one knee. And suddenly my gamma ray detector goes off. Nobody, there's all, there's people around me. And as soon as my gamma ray detector went off, all the cameras and all the sound equipment and all the cell phones turned themselves off.

Now, one Android phone was, of all the crew was working. and the director of photography was sharp enough. He grabbed it, started filming with that, and told everybody else to be working on the dang cameras. So they went down and wouldn't come back up? It would not come back up, like something fried them. Like they burned out all the batteries immediately went dead. And so they're changing batteries, swapping out units,

the little doohickeys that have the transmitters on there. They're changing all those things out and frantic, you know, trying to get the cameras up and running. And while the director of photography is filming with the the one android that was working. And so I'm sitting here looking at my gamma rate detector and the dose rate is pretty high. And I'm doing numbers in my head. And I'm thinking it's like that scene in fat man and little boy where John Cusack's character is calculating that he's about to die.

That's what I'm doing in my head. I'm going, and one of the other physicists coming over says, he looks at it and says, that's a pretty big dose, man. That's a big dose. And I'm like, that's a bigger dose than. Then it ain't going to kill me, but it ain't a good dose. So I need to, then they got about this time. So about how many x-rays worth of? Well, I'll get to that.

Okay, okay. So we're sitting here on, they've got cameras on the tailgate of the truck. They're trying to figure them out. And they get one working, and camera guys got one up finally. And so the director starts asking me questions. So what's going on? What was happening? I said, well, here's what we're going to do.

I want you get everybody here and get them back to the command center. I'm going to go, I'm going to take all my clothes. close off outside my trailer and then I'm going to take the shower and when I'm doing that I want you to get someone and go to the beer store and come back with a case of beer and they start laughing and said no I'm serious I got to start urinating as soon as possible this is standard buddy of mine was a was a subdued actually his name is his handle is subdued and he he told we've talked about I've written a bunch of science fiction stories where people got exposed or whatever and we've walked through what the protocol is that the Navy uses on the subs yep and that's the first thing they have them do is sit down and start drinking diuretics right and i'm like well you know they could go the pharmacy and get diuretic but what fun is that right course light yeah that said so i had to go get me a case of course light and i said so i'm going to set out and i'm going then i'm going to start drinking that because i've got to start you know peeing as soon as possible and he said well what about iodine so was too late for that already been exposed right i needed that beforehand and um so and they're like

you're being you're being serious now said yes i'm being serious uh and so we go back and the guy one of the the physicist that was there that year. He also had a medical physics degree, and he ran chemotherapy and radiation therapy treatments at a hospital. And he and I were sitting there doing numbers, and I've got my doctor, my general practitioner on my phone, I'm texting him, and he's texting an oncologist, and we're all doing math over the phone, in our heads and everything. And he says, dude, you just had your lifetime of cat scans in about 30 seconds.

And it wasn't, and my, it's what's really weird, is everybody around me? none of them there no no dose rate went no gamma rate detectors went off just mine and they were as close one of a guy was as close as me and you are now was it from the hole don't know don't know don't know where it came from but but going back that we had a navy team coming the next day contractor coming in next day and checking there was nothing anywhere and so after overnight I drink all the beer I get up next morning and when I urinated is the color of this laptop right here. It's like black coffee.

Oh, no. And I text my, my GP again, and he says, that's probably dead sales that you're passing. You didn't tell your wife any of that. Oh, no,

no. And then, so then I started getting flu-like symptoms. Oh, which is all classic symptoms, right? And that lasted for a good 36 hours. And I was like, well,

I'm going to go home. It's been the weekend at home and try to recuperate and see how I feel. And I get to Salt Lake City Airport, and I'm sitting there, and I order a beer and some chicken wings at whatever restaurant was.

And the waiter looks at me, says, did you get in a fight? And I said, what are you talking about? And he said, well, what's that on your head? I'm like, what's on my head? And I noticed, and I got to think about it, I'd been scratching my knee and my top of my foot was burning, and then I looked at my hand,

and there was a burn mark on my hand right here. And so I get my phone, I turned around and look, and I had a big burn mark right here. And so the way I was sitting looking over, you could draw a straight line through my head, through my hand, through my knee, and through my foot to where those burn marks were. And when I drew the line upwards, it would have gone right through the camera guy that was looking over my shoulder. This is like a death ray. That don't exist. That does not exist. So I got better.

you know, everything was fine, and I had various tests done to make sure there's not any, like leukemia markers or anything, you know. Was it radiation burn? Well, according to two different doctors, it appeared to be effects of radiation exposure. One other doctor said he didn't know what the hell it was. And then when my finger started hurting, it started expanding like this, growing outward. And I'm like, what in the crap is that? I'm too old for arthritis.

I mean, too young for arthritis, and I don't know what's going on. And so I called Kit Green, and he said, yep, that sounds like classical radiation exposure. Here's what I want you to do. He hooked me up with an orthopedist, a surgeon. They went in and x-rayed it and everything, and they set me up for surgery. And so they opened that up, and there were two osteophytes. They're like basically bone growths growing out. And from the x-ray, I could calculate their sizes.

And they were the exact right size to be microwave antennas. Is that not crazy? It's crazy. That is crazy. Well, they shaved them off and then sewed me back up, and they sent the pieces off for analysis. There was no trace of any pathogen at all, no pathogen. And so Kit said that's typical of radiation exposure. So that there's not a virus or arthritis or anything else that could cause that.

No bacterial infection. And if it's, and it comes back pathogen clear, then it's most likely that it was radiation exposure. And so that was that fun adventure. And what it was, who knows? I don't know. But so when I came out of, going back to when I walked back out of the, from behind there and was sitting on that tailgate, my friend Dragon and other guys come down. And they look at me, said, what's going on, dude? And I looked at him and said, well, I guess I'm finally bat shit crazy.

and that's when I really, that day I really started understanding that this was not made up stuff. It reached something to this property. And, but you keep going back. Well, so there's a reason I keep going back. I hope to someday dig out of the ranch a green lantern ring. But seriously, what if there's something there? What if, you know, I firmly believe that fortune favors the bold and, and the fortune might be to, learned something that we don't know.

And I've already learned a lot of things. It made myself get so much better at physics and engineering just from being out there. Sure. But what if we pull something out of the mesa that is, you know, not of this world or maybe it's an ancient artifact from an ancient civilization or who knows what? But what if there's something there? What if it's even some new Mother Nature phenomena that we've never seen before? Either way.

It would be worth it. It's worth uncovering whatever that is. I'm glad you're out there. I wouldn't go. You and Jay are in a band called hitchhiker. Oh, yeah. Hitchhiker effect. Have you experienced itchiker effect?

Yes, I have. And I have documentation of it. Now, Jay, Jay has experienced it a lot, but his is a lot worse than mine. But what happened? I'll let him talk about that. Not me to you. So the really weird thing, and it's pretty gross, it's funny. I had some debunkers try to,

I don't know, this is part I think why they think I believe in paranormal, but I'm not saying anything's paranormal. So we have laying hens, chickens at my house. I've got 17 acres in Alabama. It's in the middle of wilderness. It's green Alabama the beautiful, right? And so at the time, I had a coop that I had rigged an automatic door with a computer to run it, and it had a sensor on it, that,

30 minutes after sunup, it would open, and 30 minutes after sundown, it would close to keep raccoons and foxes out of the henhouse. And it ran on basically like a little Arduino board. I'm sure there's makers out there know exactly what I'm talking about. And it had an actuator that would just open and close, just a little metal aluminum plate door. And it had an electrical eye that went across the door. so if there was a chicken standing in it, it would shut it off.

Right. And the door actually went like, blzz. Right. It literally takes a minute for the thing to close. Right. Right. So there's no way something's going to stand there and, you know, get caught in it.

So I'm at work and my wife calls me and says, hey, there's a hen that's caught in the door. Could you come home and she didn't want to deal with it, you know? So I went home and it basically had guillotined, this poor chicken. and I'm like, how in the hell could that happen?

It was cut in half. Cut in half. Yeah, I, it's so weird of a nitpick. I said something like this at a con, it was cut in half. One of the idiot, you know, Twitterverse people, you know. So, well, he's lying about that because it didn't, you can clearly look at the picture and its head's still there.

Well, the guillotine is closed, the door's closed, and the head's hanging on this side, and the other part of the body's on the other side. I mean, that's how talking. The people are out there about this stuff, right? Keyboard Warriors, we don't. I know, right? Keyboard Warriors, exactly, right? They got Cheeto stains on their fingers.

Yeah. So, anyway. But did that motor have enough torque to do that? It had enough torque. So it could have. It could have, but the chicken would have to stay there. Right. It's not going to stay there.

So I get the board, and I look at it, and it's got all the data recorded, and it happened at exactly. Exactly, it was, it was two, it was 133 Alabama time, right? If I remember the time, right, it could have, it could be remembering, but it was around that, right? And so I look at what happened and it looked like something overloaded the battery. It got supercharged. And then the eye was triggered for safety and it didn't shut off the thing.

And it burned out the main computer drive. And so it's like something EMPed, the chicken house. And convinced the chicken at 1 33 in the morning. Would it supposed to be closed? Well, would it be closed? Right. So it opened it, then closed it. Yep.

But again, if you've ever had chickens, once they get on a roost, they don't move. That could be a snake killing them. They're going to sit there until the sun comes up. So something made this chicken get up in the middle of the night. and go let the door open, go stand in the doorway, and then let the doorway kill it. Don't eat that chicken. Yeah. Well, yeah, I didn't.

So I'm like, so I called the Eric Bard, the principal investigator at the ranch, and I said, Eric, did anything happen last night at the ranch? He said, I don't know, man. I was off on a date with my wife, and I was driving back from Vernal, which is like 40-minute, 30-minute drive or something to the ranch. I was driving back in that damn Jeep that we have out there It just everything on the dashboard lit up And every instrument in it blew up

And I was stranded on the side of the road What time? And that's exactly what our next question was And he said it was 1230 something And they're on mountain time Which is exactly the same time So there were simultaneous events That happened that fry electromagnetic MP type effect

That fried his Jeep and fried my chicken coop. And I noticed that the Wi-Fi in the house had also reset itself at that time. It did? Yeah, when I went back and looked through the logs. So there was an EMP type effect. That's two and five megahertz.

Yeah, that's right. And so, and powerful enough that it blew out my Arduino board, right? And caused, and messed with a chicken? What did it do to the chicken? I don't understand that one at all. So that is one of the strangest, weirdest things that happened, I can't explain it. I'd had chickens before that and after that,

never seen anything like that. I've had other events very similar like that, that things just keep blowing up like that, like they're being fried or whatever. So I've safeguarded everything, I hope, not who would. Now that I've said it'll probably happen as soon as I get home, it'll happen. But that kind of stuff happens a lot.

Do you think that it doesn't want you there, or is it just mischief? You know, the previous owners of the property, the farmers that live there, said they believe it was some kind of trickster. Yeah. Right? To what end? Yeah. You know, but I've always said that we may never understand alien motivations because it's just that alien. Mm-hmm.

And we may never, we might be invaded and never know why. Right. And whatever's going on here could have some motivation that doesn't make any sense to us. That's true. It could be AI motivation. We may never understand what AI's motivation is, right? Heck, I've got a teenager. I don't know what his motivations are, right?

So it's one of those things that, but why, right? And that's one of the reasons that I keep going back is, I do fear that could I be bringing it back with me. A lot of people have had some detrimental things that have been there and they'll never get anywhere near the place again. Well, Colonel Alexander said his wife was not pleased. Yeah. Well, we had one guy, like I said, that he told us flat out.

And he was actually one of the Nimitz group guys that we had to visit us. Yeah. And he came out and he was affected so much that he told us he would never, ever come back again. Did he say what happened to him? We watched it. We started having seizures on the ground. Oh, my God. We went and put him in a Faraday cage and it helped a little bit,

but we eventually evacuated him and seen him to an emergency room. It's not funny. No, it's not. Well, it's not funny. It's crazy. It's funny. Right. Yeah.

It's unbelievable is what it is. That's why I tell you, that's why I think people, I can understand people think we're making it up because it's bizarre. I haven't watched the show because I thought y'all were making it up. Yeah. We're not. There's not a single thing that we're making. Everything is as we're seeing it. Now, like I said, we may get some things wrong.

And we always come back, say, oh, well, we thought this was something, but it was just a bug. Or it was a, you know, snow goose or whatever. But we always are honest about those things. And that's the thing that I want to make clear is if we find something, this is disclosure, man, unless somebody comes and shuts us down in a way that we can't get it out, it's getting out. How far back does the weird stuff go? Well, the one, so every owner that's been there has said something about it.

And like I said, there's a petroglyph on the property that's a thousand years old. Yeah. That's a warning that evil is beyond this. thing. And they even show a portal in the sky. They do? Yeah. Oh, no. That's where you're balloon went.

Maybe. Well, exactly where they draw it. So there's a drawing of the mesa, and then there's the star patterns. And exactly where this little spot is, is right where the balloon disappeared. Oh, my goodness. That's interesting that you bring that up. That's a good analysis. Where did the remote viewer, did she give you any more details when you were 16, where you went, what you saw, what happened?

She said that they just took me and tried to show me something, but I didn't, I wouldn't remember it. And you still won't. And I still won't, apparently, because I don't. Do you believe her? No. Okay. I don't know what to think about it. Why would, why would, why is whatever it is that she can do trigger her, her brain to see something fantastical, you know, that like that's that like that, right?

right? I mean, I would understand if it was just someone that was trying to get, like, publicity, like, spoon-bending huckster or something. Yeah. And I don't mean all spoonbenders or hucksters. I just mean, like, you know, a rain, a rain con man, you know, a rainmaker. A stubble by. Snake oil salesman, right?

Yeah. But she's not that, because she's not getting paid for that. She finds, like, kidnapped children and things like that. and works with police. She's also seeing through time. Yeah. And she's saying that they were showing her this. And that they were telling her where to go to send the team to get a UFO and all these kinds of things.

We thought we had one at one point, but they kept giving us, oh, well, the rebels there won't let us in the property or they need a million dollars before they'll do that or whatever. And we're like, yeah, that sounds right. they sent us video and it looked like they built some kind of prop you know yeah it was one of those things so we've never had anything like that pan out right but now the remote viewing part yeah you said you could explain the mechanism

well I have a hypothesis the think about it like for those who aren't familiar with remote viewing it's been used officially since the 70s in the Stargate program how put off Russell Targ and those guys did a detailed scientific evaluation of it and showed that it was statistically better than guessing.

Pat Price was a miracle. Pat Price was apparently him and Joe McMonigle. And Ingo Swan were the, they were the best, right? And McMonigle still says stuff to Jay. Jay talks to him, you know. But how would something like that work? Well, if you look at how they do it, so we had Paul Smith, we've had remote viewers come out to the property and they've told us some fantastic, amazing things, and we've discovered, we've found exactly what they said right where they said it was going to be or whatever. Like what?

Well, so let me give you one example since they can't spoil it. Okay. But the thing about it, I was about to say, though, is that the network doesn't believe that the public believes it, so they won't let us, they don't want us to air it. Why? They don't believe in remote viewing. The network for some reason doesn't like remote viewing, I don't think. Okay. But to me, it's CIA didn't mind it.

That's what I thought. That's why I keep telling them. They said, well, and they also don't, I don't think they grasp it or get it or something. You know, and I've tried to explain it, but it is a hard concept for a lot of people to accept because it seems like magic. Well, the way it works. So we thought we were going to trip Paul Smith up. We took the date that I was exposed to radiation and wrote it down and put it in a envelope, put a serial number on that envelope, put the envelope in a drawer, and then told Paul

the serial number. Then he took that serial number and gave it through a friend, without telling him where it came from, to two of his students, that he said were his prized students. Different states. One I think was New York and one was out Midwest somewhere. And they both came back with drawings, and Paul did a drawing himself. And the drawing that they drew, uh, was a Feynman diagram for per-production of an electron positron collision.

What? I kid you not. All right. So you say, well, what does that mean? Well, so after I was exposed to radiation, we had this Navy contractor team come out and they put a radiation spectrum analyzer in that exact spot where I was exposed to radiation. They found a spectrum of the radiation I was exposed to. and there was a peak that occurred over a week. The most number of hits they got was at 511 K-EV.

511 K-EV is the gamma ray that's created when an electron anti-electron or positron collide with each other and they create 511 KEV gamma rays. That's what they found. That's the annihilation number. That's the annihilation number. They found that? That's what they found there behind.

Why? Where did they, where did they, where did they, where did they, where did they post-Evon and electron? come from. Right. And why have we got a pair annihilation gamma rays? You know, what I'm talking about here is, you know how in Star Trek they used a matter antimatter chamber to create the warp energy?

Well, we've got a matter-any-matter collision happening on the property at Skinwalker Ranch for no dang reason. Well, but these remote viewers drew the date that we told them in the GPS coordinates. And all they saw was a serial number. They didn't know anything where it came from and know anybody, but they drew the Feynman diagram for electron positron collision and the gamma rays. There's no way they knew about antimatter. There's no way they knew?

No, well, one of them, I asked him. One of them was an art major or something. Right. And one of them was like a data processor or something. But they were taking, you know, remote viewing school from Paul. When you saw that diagram, did you know what it was? As soon as I saw it, I said, I looked at it, said, that's a Feynman diagram. And then the other says, look at it said, he turned it around.

You're right, that is a Feynman diagram. And we're like, what the hell? And when I saw that, I was like, you're not, you're not going to convince me anymore that remote viewing is made up, it's magic or whatever. It's a real phenomenon. Now, what is it and how does it work? Well, what did he do?

He took, we took a piece of data and we gave it an address. and it stored away on the memory stack somewhere. And then we gave the memory stack location to these people. And all they did was they know how to look at the memory stack and read what's stored there. That's a great way to describe it. And that is another piece of simulation hypothesis or some sort of mechanism that the universe is created through software or a matrix-like environment that would suggest that these people have understood, they now understand how to read certain locations in the memory stack.

I hadn't considered that, but that makes a lot of sense. They can see the code. Yeah. They can access the memory. And you know where, and I also, that also explains quantum entanglement. Quantum entanglement is nothing more than the inventory. So think about Minecraft Steve, right? He, mine's a diamond.

over here at position X, Y, Z, and T, time one. He picks the diamond up. He plops it into his inventory. It's up there in some location, and you can pick up with the inventory. It's in this block right here. Yep. Right?

Then he walks around the world map and goes to some other position and time, and he reaches up into his inventory and magically plops it down, and there it is. Where was it all that time? You say, what was in his inventory? What is an inventory?

It's the memory. It's the memory. And what I just explained to you is how quantum teleportation works. Quantum teleportation, if you draw a diagram for how Minecraft Steve moves items with his inventory, it looks exactly like quantum teleportation moving information from point A to point B. Doesn't it move it instantly? It moves it non-locally.

Non-locally. You still have to send a classical signal to tell them how to make the measurements and things. And where is the non-that's the big thing is. Nobody understands where the non-local place is? No. It's the memory stack. Right. It's everywhere.

It's everywhere. It's the Akashik record. That's right. Where is that stored? It's everywhere. Yeah. It's like the morphic field, morphic resonance. Right.

So whatever the holographic universe that we're living in, that information, the information universe, whatever it is, that information is, that information is stored everywhere, somewhere, somehow. And so these people that have, they didn't find a back door, they just understood how to, read what's there. Doesn't that make the secret work as well? Absolutely. I think it's all the same thing. I think they're all manifestations of the same concept. Monroe Institute. Yep. All of it. All of it. Makes sense to me too. Let's talk about Jay Stratton for a second. He's got a book coming out.

Yeah. And he recently said that about disclosure, like it's already happened, but there's a lot more coming. Do you know what he means? Well, uh, well, Jay and I talk all the time. I mean, we're in a band together. Is he a good guitar player? Yeah, he's a good guitar player. Jay's pretty. Jay is awesome, man. He's an amazing person.

And you sing? Yeah. I play on some of the songs. I write some of the songs, but I'm the lead vocalist. All right? So that's Hitchhiker on Spotify this week, right? Yeah, yeah, man. Spotify is Hitchhiker Effect.

Okay. Hitchhhhhhhhhhh effect, okay. So, yeah, Jay was, so for people who don't know who Jay Stratton is, Jay Stratton was the director of the UAP Task Force. But before that, he and Jim Likatsky, Dr. Lekatsky, were the two people working for DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency at the time. And they had noticed a bunch of people reporting weird things, pilots and so on, and they thought, well, somebody should be looking into this.

And no, I don't think anybody is. And so they started investigating. And they came up with the idea to create the, uh, create offset, which is like advanced weapons, something systems program. I don't know what all it stands for.

Um, and that was actually a contract. It was a proposal. And they let out a call for proposals that, uh, any contractors could bid on that, uh, that,

uh, that could get security clearances, uh, to, uh, to, to, to investigate what,

what they were calling range fowlers at the time. Range fowler would be, they had, a test range or flying doing experience like top gun kind of stuff. Yep. And pilots would see something that shouldn't be there so it's not safe. So they needed to find out what they work. Was it enemy drones?

You know, what was it? And Bigelow Airspace was the only company that bid on the proposal. Now, let me, if you've been in the defense intelligence industry at all, you know that any opportunity that someone in the government releases to give you money, there are 30 companies, companies that go after it. Yep. So why did nobody respond to this except for Bigelow Airspace? And that was endorsed by Harry Reid at the time.

Yeah, yeah. So what happened, Lackatsky and Jay went to Harry Reid and Noyei and there was one other senator that was a Republican. I can't remember his name, but there were three of them. So somehow they briefed them and they were like, well, we could put in a plus up on the next bill to get you some seed money to get started on this. And then you guys can go through the standard channels to start a program, right? And there's nothing odd about the day.

I'm telling you, that's how everything works in government programs. Yep. Every time. I mean, it's unusual if it happens a different way. And so they are set, they're getting going, and Bigelow had an interest already in Skinwalker Ranch. He had already bought the place and had been funding the Nids guys. Was it National Institute for Discovery Science or something like that? To go out, that was Eric Davis and Hal put off to go out there and Kelleher.

Yep. To investigate for whatever the weird stuff was. And I think Bigelow was more interested in the, in the, what you would call paranormal things, supernatural or whatever. I think because there was a death or something in his family that he was really affected by. And he was wanting maybe try to do an. reach out to the afterlife or something. He's into a lot of near-death experience and after-death experience. Yeah.

So I think that was what was driving him more. Yes. But something had happened on Skinwalker Ranch that led Bigelow to tell Lackatsky and Jay Stratton that if you want to see a nuts and bolt spacecraft, UFO, you need to go to Skinwalker Ranch. And Jay tells that story, like, I mean, almost word for word like that, that Bigelow told them. If you want to see a UFO, you've got to go to Skinwalker Ranch. And so Jay said, okay. So him and Likaski, you know, packed up and went Skinwalker Ranch.

And Jay said it was like the first week he was there. He saw what he calls a dart, triangular shaped craft that flew over the property, I think. But worse, they had an event happen in what we now call Jay's tree, which is, it turns out, is right. I mean, we put post out to mark where the terrestrial laser scanner said this bubble phenomenon is, and Jay's tree is right by where we put post number five. And so they were walking, and as they got closer and closer to this tree, all of them were overcome with fear and couldn't walk any further and turn around the left. And it's right at that.

I mean, it's literally right where the terrestrial laser scanner tells us the edge of this bubble is. Is it a hard edge or is it kind of fade off? Well, so what the drones told us this year in an experiment was that it's potentially at least a 5 gigahertz, 120 foot thick. Wow. I know, right? And you can hear it on AM if you tune your car to a station, because it cuts right across the driveway as you come in. You can hear it as you drive the car through the radio crackle. Oh, my goodness.

And it could be placebo effect, but the distance from my trailer to the gate and back is a one-mile. run and I'll often do a one mile run in the morning or whatever and I run right through the bubble out and in back and I swear I feel sinus pressure every time when I go through there but it could be purely placebo right I'm too front-loaded to it to believe myself on that one or to trust that measurement so anyway Jay and Lackatsky continued with the offset program until such time as someone in the Pentagon thought they were looking for oogabuga stuff at Skinwalker Ranch and went and had the program funds killed. Didn't have the program killed.

They just pulled the funds, which kills a program. Yeah, that's how you do it. And even though Harry Reid and Harry Reid couldn't fight it, apparently, you know. But, and that's why I'm convinced if Bigelow had more, I wouldn't give it to the government either because they paid him half of what they told him was going to pay him. I'd been giving the government the finger, basically, right? So, but I don't believe that he's got something squirrel. He's got a UFO squirrel away. And when he talked, when we've talked to him, he said, no, we never, we never dug up a UFO.

We never saw anything like that, you know? I don't think he does. No, I'm convinced he, I'm convinced that he doesn't. And I believe that he and Jay have such a rapport that he would have told Jay that if he did. And, and, uh, now they did have a lot of sightings. and we do have he did give us that data of like dates and times and descriptions of the experiences and so on and nuts and bolts sightings

well they were things in the sky and nothing landed and came out and said to take it to your leader but not an orb I think they were mostly like orb like yeah it's interesting that you said annoyé because remember his famous speech about there's a cabal with its own air force

its own military that answers to no law is that is he's he talking about like the Collins group? I wonder. I've thought that too. And so where is this Air Force? Where is this?

Where are these people? And how are they hiding it in plain sight from us? Right. To me, that's fascinating. But it sounds a lot like a legacy program that's not being brought into the open. Why did Ronald Reagan talk about a space force that there's 3,000 people on crap? Remember that weird slip? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And what is all the stuff that's in the, was it the Snowden leaks and the WikiLeaks and all that different stuff? And the British guy, Gary, the British guy, Gary. Gary McKinnon. Yeah, him. You know, the files he found.

Yeah. What is all that, right? You know, it's got names of ships and manifests and all that. Yeah, officers. And they weren't Navy ships that existed. So what were they? You know, I love the story, but it's just, how do you launch stuff without anybody knowing?

How do you keep that kind of secret? It seems like impossible to me. Well, is it? If we launched a rocket right now out of Annenberg, what would you think about it? Satellite going on. Another satellite going up. If we launched something out of the Cape

or out at Texas at the new spaceports out there, Elon doing something else, right? No, that's no thing anything about it. And for years, they were launching top secret satellites on, you know, Titans and stuff out of Vanneberg and up out of Codiak and wherever else. So, uh, you know, why, we never thought anything about it. Who knows what they put up? Could there be a shipyard up there?

I think, I think now you couldn't hide it as easily because there's enough commercial radars and all that. And just like with the whole moon thing, Elon's going whether we want him to or not. Yeah. So he's going to know if he don't already, right? Uh, and I, and I think, uh, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, one of the things that we'll, we'll find out very soon. I think disclosure has to happen simply because they can't keep up with the technology progression, whoever they are.

Sooner or later, regular civilians are going to be able to go and hike on the moon. Yeah, that's coming soon. That's probably in our lifetime. I think that is in our lifetimes. So I'm really hopeful that we'll get to the bottom of some of these things. And then hecklefish will be able to go and see that there, that a Apollo 11 did actually happen. And there are remnants of us landing on the moon, and we walked on the moon in 1969 and early 70s. You don't like that conspiracy theory. Well, my dad was part of building the thing.

Oh, that's right. And I've been part of experiments where we bounced lasers off of systems that they left there on the moon. That's true. So I know. There's something there. I mean, you think there's something weird on the other side? Do you believe Carl Wolf's story and all that? Well, I don't know what to think about that.

I've heard the airbrushed photos things. And I'm one of the guys who found one of the three lights in one of the Apollo 17 limb photos that was just released from the government. I'm the guy who found that. I didn't know that. And we don't know what that is. And I went to the limb in Huntsville and crawled all around that thing and looked at, tried to figure out if there's a way that this external camera was seeing blue lights somehow on, and the official debunking is, oh, well, the actual film had holes in it.

And when they scanned it, blue lights came through the holes. And I'm like, well, I looked at hundreds of canisters. And if that were the case, all those films would have like holes in it like that. And this was the only one. And I had an AI run it and it found three others in the photo. There are blue lights on the moon. That's a fact. Well, there was a triangle with three blue light.

It was a triangle. It was a black triangle with perfect, with the apex lights typical from the stories, right? Could you get a sense of how big it was? No way of knowing how far away it was. Right. Because it's just one camera. I'm trying to match it to what you saw over the ranch. Yeah.

There's no way to tell. No way to tell, right? But this is in the NASA archives. Anybody can go look for it and find it? I can even tell you, unless they've changed the archive, I'll tell you exactly which canister it was in. and we presented this to the White House. We presented it to the appropriate committees in Congress to NASA. NASA said, yes, this is real, it is our image.

It is there. We don't know what that is either. Then half the people in the room immediately started trying to say, oh, maybe it's meteorites in, you know, coming in perfect, you know, triangle, you know, like all this. And then the other half was like, we need to look, we don't know what that is. And so my thoughts are that if I, what I was doing, I wasn't looking for UFOs.

I was working on a project where my second PhD was using craters on the moon as dishes for large, very large communications antennas. That's fascinating. Because a meteor crater is already parabolic by physics. Sure. And the lunar regolith is 11% reflective in the microwaves and in RF. And so I was calculating using some of these 50 kilometer wide craters. as antennas. And so I was looking for better pictures to see if I could figure out how smooth it was,

so I could calculate the error that would be put into the signal. And while I was looking for better pictures in the Apollo and I looked at the lunar reconnaissance orbiter, all that stuff, I found this one picture in there. And I was like, what is that? That's not supposed to be there. And I called, I sent it to Jay, and Jay looked at it. I said, what is that? I don't know.

So I started doing analysis on it. and I did all sorts of, to make sure, number one, it wasn't an airbrushed image. It was a real image. It did say this was a scan of a photo, which is what it was, because it was a 35 millimeter camera on the outside of the limb, and then since NASA has taken all the photos and digitized them. Was 17 Edgar Mitchell's mission? It sounds like he was, right.

No, that was Conrad and Schmidt. That's right. So, but who knows or maybe, I haven't looked, I only looked through handfuls, but if I found an anomaly in, say, a hundred out of a million, the odds are there's a lot more anomalies in some of those. I bet there are. Before we go, you wanted to set the, you wanted to set me straight about how and about some of the things I got wrong. Oh. Well, so I just wanted to say. set you straight that

none of these guys Jay, Howe, Eric Davis, none of us. I mean, of course, we'd be telling you this. Right. But the aviary. None of the ones that you're talking about

in the aviary, except for maybe Kit, because Kit often tells me stuff that he says, well, I can't tell you that. And I'm like, well, why can't you say, well, because they, I can't. He's still worried about whatever programs he worked on and when it and it's not by nefarious reasons it's from don't want to go to prison reason right but how yeah yeah yeah none of none of the guys that uh from that particular

group have a nefarious bone in their body uh most of them are they're they're extremely american patriotic but uh they also are extremely want to get to the bottom of whatever all this is and I don't think other than the threat of prison, right, violating some NDA they signed, they would be giving us false information. What's your take on Richard Doty, who worked with Howell and Benowitz and all that? So, the Condor, the Falcon. Richard Doty's been caught in so many misdirections that I wouldn't trust anything he says just because of that. Because even if he was doing it under orders, right. It's still, you don't know if he's, telling you something that was under orders to be a lie or not.

You don't. And so that to me is a, that's like trying to study randomness to find more randomness. It's very frustrating. Yeah. So I don't, I, that's just the source that I don't, I don't even consider a source because of, of that purpose, right? Because of that reason. Lou, I don't, Lou is, he has a different approach to the history of, of, of, all sap and

A-Tip. A-Tip was never a real program. A-Tip was the name they used internally. And Jay often says he wish you'd never put the word thread in there because it made people think it was an alien threat or something. But it wasn't what he meant. He meant, was it a threat to our airspace? And, you know.

I've been hard on Lou. Have I been unfair? No. Yeah. I mean, everybody, we're grown-ups, right? We're big boys. And if you can't take it, you know, you should go cry to your mama or something, right? Whatever.

This is a toxic universe. It is. But so what Lou, I can tell you what Lou did, but now it's possible too that Lou was read into some program I wasn't read into and there's always a chance. And I don't have anything bad to say about Lou, right? But what I'll tell you that I know is Lou was, he was doing whatever his day job was and he had a program that had a top secret SCI caveat for it. but the program wasn't active. And so there was nothing under that clearance. And Jay and Lackatsky, after Ossap, needed a place to park classified things.

And they knew Lou. And they called Lou, and Lou said, and they said, hey, Lou, could we use your caveat to park our classified stuff in? We'll rewrite the class guide and so it'll fit to yours. And we'll just mark it as your classification. And you'll monitor the security for it. and Lou, and they agreed to it. And to my knowledge, that was all that happened with ATIP, right?

And it wasn't like a big program. And while there was no official director, so it gets kind of, in nomenclature, it gets thrown around at Lou was the director of this or that. Now, Lou was the owner of that top secret caveat. And I don't know, I mean, to my knowledge, there was anything other than like videos and things put in it. Well, a big problem with Lou is the Pentagon got kind of cagey and started kind of twisting the narrative a little bit. Where they're like, no, he was never the director of anything, which is true. But Lou's like, hang on.

They did the same thing with me. They said while he worked with, he was never the official chief scientist. And Jay said, never official. He introduced him to the council of the White House as the chief scientist of the UAP Task Force. But it wasn't on your business card. Whoa, that's another interesting point. So, you know, Greenwald does the Black Vault or whatever? Yep, John.

So, John, interestingly enough, John was a producer, writer on Rock City Rednecks. I didn't know that. So I know John. And so I've reached out to him a few times when he's gotten things wrong or whatever. Oh, him too? Yeah, him too, right. And so try to get him straight. But anyway, so John apparently did a FOIA request for any emails from me and Jay to each other.

and the government's response is there are no emails between me and jay me and j emailed each other for years right which is the most bizarre thing to me and some of them were like hey how's it going to oh there's coal up here today i hate marylander you know something like that uh and uh and why would they not at least release and one email to show him just let him back off or whatever but instead all it does is fuel conspiracy thought right so they said we don't have them or did they pull that classification. They said they looked and didn't find any. I hope he appealed that.

He did, and they basically have, so every, he's been after it since like 22. And they've been responding to him constantly. And basically gave him a final, don't call us anymore, response. And he just posted on X a few days ago. I saw it and it was like, me and Jay were looking at it. I said, well, how did that? We couldn't believe it. It was not that we care.

I mean, there's nothing in the emails he's going to get other than just us talking about, we're going to. going to meet and well if we talked about anything it was on a tanberg or in a skiff so i mean there's not going to be anything in the emails you could get and you don't violate clear as by saying yeah we did email no no you could say that yeah that's so weird i i i don't understand see those there are those kinds of things that make no sense this is why people get angry at a lot of you guys and it's not really your fault it's not my fault i didn't tell them not to do it i mean i'm sitting here right now i'm saying you i did email jay scrant and and and and it's nothing

illegal about that. There's nothing to be classified about that. I mean, I've emailed you. So, I mean, that is so just bizarre. And so who is driving that and why? I think it's just to stir the daggum pot.

It's just like Richard Doty. Just to get us fighting and distract us while Lockheed and Raytheon are doing their thing or whatever's going on. I think you might be right about that. And it might be somebody like a Richard Doty's in there that it's their day job just to make things look at they're playing the god the trickster god part yep is there anything you want folks to know before we say goodbye uh well you know uh we just finished i think uh the last couple episodes skinwalker ranch season seven are almost done this

year uh we are headed back out to do season eight uh and hopefully even more crazy stuff will happen and we'll catch it and you'll get to see it uh my uh my uh I don't know, I've lost count this time, 26th, 27th science fiction novel, just hit the book stores. Oh, we did? It's called Apogee. Okay. It is the sequel to a book called Ballistic, which my publisher said was the best book ever wrote. So we'll see.

But I think you'd find an interesting. There's a lot of simulation hypothesis, a lot of the Minecraft fish new stuff in it that we've talked about. I'll check it out. Hitchhiker effect is on spot-off. I was just about to say. And so Jay Stratton and I, along with Micah Hank, and Michael's brother, Caleb Hanks, John Kneeberger, Jim Kellegard, and Rob Nelson. We have a band called The Hitchhiker Effect, and we play hard rock, a lot of like sort of a guns

and roses, Metallica flare with a little bit of a southern bit thrown in. You know, I can't leave my Skinner Groots. But two singles are on Spotify now. One's called The Tether, and one is called I Bet They Rock and Roll. And they're available. So hope you enjoy it. And we're going to be playing live at Phnomicon in Vernal on whenever Phenomicon is like the second week of September. Okay.

That's worth checking out. Yeah. So come see us. But more than that, this has been a lot of fun. As always, it's great to speak with someone knowledgeable about all these things and realize that you're not an army of one and you're not by yourself. And other people have been looking into it as well. and everybody else is just as frustrated and just as interested as we are. And I will tell you that we don't worry about someone coming to a podium

and telling you that disclosure has happened, right? Disclosure is happening right now around us all the time. You watch Skinwalker Ranch, you'll see we're disclosing whatever we can find so that you can see it. Dr. Travis Taylor, this has been a joy. I hope that you come back and see us. Anytime, man. Appreciate you.

Yep. Bye, everybody. That was Dr. Travis Taylor. He spent part of this conversation angry at a reporter who wrote the words his alleged education. So let's start there. He's got two PhDs, three masters. He's working on his third PhD in his 50s on theoretical physics. So that's all true.

He'll also tell you the chief scientist title was never official, and that's not the thing a resume pattern would volunteer. Now that moon photo was interesting. Travis was looking for craters smooth enough to use as a radio telescope, which is a cool idea in its own, but he found three blue lights in a triangle in an Apollo 17 frame. And the Pentagon put that frame in the UAP files that they just released in May, and they admitted nobody knows what that is. Now, what about the drilling at Skimwalker? That blew my mind, as you saw.

So they're like, what did he say, 70 feet, 370, whatever it was. They're drilling into the mesa, and they can't get through this metal. They get some shavings of it, and it looks manufactured. It's in layers, like arts parts. and then somebody jokes that the only thing missing to make this a meteorite is nickel. Well, they didn't find any nickel in the metal, but they pulled out a 1964 nickel out of the same hole.

The boring explanation is the true one. Archaeologists very adated coin so the next crew knows the site's been dug. So Travis pulled every public aerial photo of the property. 1963 is there. 1969 is there. There's nothing in between. Now, I don't know what's in that mesa.

I don't know what's in that hole. It sounds like a spaceship. I don't know, but I want it to be something. Travis's new novel is Apogee, the sequel to Ballistic, and if you're into hard sci-fi like I am, the books are really good. There's a reason they're bestsellers. His band with Jay Stratt and his hitchhiker effect.

I haven't heard it yet. I can't vouch for it, but I'm not going to miss it. He says it's like, Guns and Roses meets Leonard Skinner. I don't know what that sounds like, but I'm down to try it. Everything I mentioned is link below. Until next time, be safe. Be kind and know that you are appreciated.

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