The Wolf Of All Streets - $1,000,000 Bitcoin | Bobby Lee
Episode Date: August 24, 2021Bobby Lee immediately saw the promise of Bitcoin when he was first introduced to it, and set out to build the first crypto exchange in China. Bubbling with passion and a desire to build, Bobby went on... to write one of the most popular books in the space, The Promise Of Bitcoin, and also built a revolutionary wallet called Ballet. Throughout this episode, Bobby made a number of insightful predictions bound to both excite and surprise everyone, including where he sees Bitcoin going this bull run. Don’t skip this episode - Bobby has the ability to inspire the Bitcoin investor in all of us. -- Matcha: Matcha is the easiest way to trade in DeFi. Matcha enables you to trade across all the major DEXs so you can be sure you’re getting better prices than going to a centralized exchange or Uniswap. Connect your wallet and start today at https://thewolfofallstreets.link/matcha -- Sorare: Where fantasy meets reality. Collect, trade and earn weekly prizes on https://thewolfofallstreets.link/sorare. #OwnYourGame -- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co ーーー Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members
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This episode is brought to you by SoRare and Matcha.
Stay tuned for information on both of them later in this episode.
What's up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast where twice
a week I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading,
art, music, sports, politics, basically anyone with a good story to tell. And that's definitely
today's guest. Today's guest is a true OG in the crypto space. Having co-founded the first crypto
exchange in China in 2011, Bobby Lee has probably been through and seen it all. Currently he's on
the board of directors of the Bitcoin Foundation, has founded a new wallet company called Ballet,
and even has his own book titled The Promise of Bitcoin, which I have a copy of right here. Bobby's book outlines Bitcoin's ideal role in the future in a way that readers of all levels
can understand. It's my hope today that Bobby will share what that promise is, how he has seen the
crypto space evolve over the past 10 years, and what he predicts for crypto moving forward. Bobby
Lee, thank you so much for coming on. Scott, thank you. It's a pleasure and honor for me to be here
on your show. Thank you so much. And thank you for sending me the book and for sending me the
wallet. It's absolutely awesome to be able to see those in the real world before talking to you. So
listen, I once had twins, the Cockfosters on the show at the same time, but I've never had
brothers actually. And I had your brother, Charlie, on an older episode. So I'm curious
if you have anything that you'd like to say to him or about him while he has no chance to respond. Oh, that's an interesting proposition.
You know, I don't. I don't have anything to add to that. But that would have been great if I could.
Well, he was absolutely, he was an amazing guest. I'm curious, did you guys discover crypto together or was one of you first?
So he discovered it first and he was indeed my angel to bring me on board Bitcoin. So this was in early 2011. So I think he read about it on some online web forum or something like that. And then he and then at that, you know, we we communicate closely, even though at the time we were living in different parts of the world.
But we during one of our phone calls, he told me about it.
And I think when we met up in person the following time, we'd really discuss the the we were just discussing like what what makes Bitcoin valuable?
Does it give it value? Because thinking back again, this was in 2011.
OK, and then 10 years prior to that, around 2001, 2002, we were actually roommates together in California.
And the reason I bring that up is because those are the early years where he and I would look at gold, you know,, and we would buy gold coins and we'd talk about
what makes gold valuable, even though it was not backed by the government. And that conversation
sort of is relevant because Bitcoin, in essence, is a similar kind of thing, right? An asset class
that's not backed by the government, yet inherently has features and properties that makes it valuable.
What do you think made it so interesting to you already in 2001? Because even though obviously
you went into Bitcoin in 2011, clearly you were already understanding the problems with money
and the problems with money being backed by a government as far back as 2001. I think that's
before most people started really thinking about their money.
Yeah. So we grew up, many people know this,
we actually grew up in Africa, Charlie and I were both born in the Ivory Coast. So many people
haven't been to that part of the world, West Africa, used to be a French colony, it got
independent, went independent in 1960. So it's still very highly French influence. And in the
1980s, when when I was growing up, it was actually a very stable, very advanced country relative to
all the neighboring countries in that region of Africa, which constantly had coup d'etats,
uprisings, and all that stuff. So Ivory Coast had a decent, good economy growth and so on compared
to its other countries. And we also saw the currency. There's many, many different currencies
all over Africa. And some were well known to be inflationary, hyperinflationary. There's many, many different currencies all over Africa, and some were well-known to be
inflationary, hyperinflationary. There's always a concept of people wanting, not just the people I
see, but also my family, relatives, and people in the Ivory Coast, wanting to convert whatever
they earned into a hard currency, such as a US dollar, the French franc, the Swiss franc,
British pound. Those are seen as
safe haven currencies. When we were born, given that atmosphere, we knew that currency
was not all the same. Some currencies are better than others. Some were safer than others because
of the inherent ability to store value or retain value. So I think that's sort of the insight in
our childhood. And then of course, gold, then we thought about, hey, gold, you know, gold being valuable is actually baked into
society, right?
If you think about in the US, a lot of the credit card programs, we talk about gold standard,
you know, even in vernacular English, the gold standard, airline miles programs, credit
card programs.
I think there's a gold tier, total reward points.
So society language has already adopted gold as something pretty good. And of course, that now there's this platinum tier. That's funny,
platinum tier is even better than gold. But what's ironic is that over the years,
the precious metal platinum actually is not as valuable as gold, right? So it's something
interesting in that sense. That makes sense. There's a few things that strike me there. One
is that as growing up in the United States, as I did, you never consider your money. So I don't think we
had that sort of forced education maybe that you have. And number two is that growing up in Africa,
your stable currencies were the dollar and the pound. But if you're growing up here,
you have to take a jump beyond those currencies to gold and Bitcoin and other stores of value.
Exactly. Yeah. So we
had a unique vantage point of seeing multiple currencies from an early childhood. And that
gave us, so it wasn't assumed that currencies were stable and stuff like that. And then the other
fun story is we would visit the US every so often. And I remember road trips down the highways,
up at East Coast and going to McDonald's, going to these fast food restaurants. And especially in fast food restaurants, this happens today, you still see
these either these images of the 1950s scenes at the fast food restaurants, you know, and then you
would see signs, you know, burgers and cheeseburgers for five cents and 10 cents, right?
And a Coca Cola for like a nickel. In fact,-Cola held its price for a nickel, you know, five pennies for many, many years, right?
And then you look at the prices, you know,
in the 1990s of burgers and cheeseburgers and Coca-Cola.
Why is it much higher?
Was that a phantom dream?
But like what happened to the US money, right?
So it gives you a perspective.
In fact, you know, this week, we just passed August 15th,
which is the 50-year anniversary of the new US dollar. I'm sure you're familiar with what I'm talking about.
Of course, Bretton Woods. Of course, Bretton Woods. And it really is interesting to see what's happened to the United States dollar in that 50 year period. 50 years ago, 1971, August 15th is when Richard Nixon took us off the gold standard and closed
the gold window. So the US dollar was no longer backed by gold starting on August 15th of 1971.
So today we've been living for the last 50 years. I'm actually only 46. So all my life,
money has been backed by nothing. Whereas my parents and grandparents, it was not the case.
Right. And of course, the US dollar was backed by gold while all other currencies were effectively
backed by the US dollar.
So that was a violation of the trust against the rest of the world for us to remove that
gold standard.
Exactly.
It's like turtles all the way down or whatever you call it.
We're all floating.
Right.
So like you, I'm 44 years old.
So roughly the same experience.
I was born in 1976.
So after all of that happened and
have dealt with an inflationary fiat currency for the entirety of my life as well. So it's
interesting to me, though, you say you guys talked about it in 2011. You started to sort of,
you know, build the idea in your head of the potential Bitcoin. You didn't stop there. Most
of us hear about Bitcoin and we maybe buy some or consider it. You started an exchange in China. Well, so more accurately, I actually, I did, so I started mining. So Charlie
was mining Bitcoin. I started, got into mining Bitcoin, the GPU mining. That was the summer of
2011. And it was just, oh, the other, the other ingredient is Charlie and I, we both had computer
science degrees. We both went to good schools. For him, it was MIT. For me, it was Stanford. And we studied computer science. So that also gave us, if you will,
the confidence and the background in computer science, mathematics, cryptography, again,
like the peer-to-peer network, software, all that stuff. So for us, it was natural for us to dive
into Bitcoin. At that time, we didn't tinker with the code, but it was natural for us to really
examine it, look at it. Is this something that can be valuable down the road?
Just like we looked at the internet.
He was two years younger, but both he and I, after we graduated from college, we went straight into an internet company.
For me, it was Yahoo.
For him, it was a startup and he went to Google.
So we were primed to get into crypto because of a computer science background.
That makes perfect sense.
So when did you make the jump from mining to I'm going to open an exchange?
Because that was a very foreign concept at the time.
Yeah.
So it was by chance.
So at the time in 2011, for me, crypto was a hobby.
Bitcoin was a hobby.
Actually, I didn't even, I made the mistake of not buying Bitcoin.
And I attribute that to me being too much of a geek.
I couldn't find a good enough and a safe enough
wallet that's comfortable for me to store Bitcoin. So remember back then it was Bitcoin Core.
At the time it was called Bitcoin D, the classic Bitcoin client. It was running on your PC or
Windows or Mac. And what's crazy about it is the wallet file that stored the private keys in that
program was not even encrypted. It was a plain text file that stored all your private keys. So it was routinely common at the time, even for
thief and hacking, where people would take your computer or a backup, whatever, and basically
steal your wallet.dat file and steal all your Bitcoins. And there was no sort of cold storage
solution or anything like that. So I was
uncomfortable buying more Bitcoin. I mined some Bitcoin, but I didn't actually put real money in
it until 2013. Charlie started a little bit earlier than me. So he bought in more Bitcoin
at a lower price than I did. But regardless, I actually, by late 2012, I left my job at Walmart.
And that's when I decided, hey, you know what? I should commit to my previous promise, which is if
I ever do a startup, I should do it in Bitcoin. And that's what got my idea that I
should launch a Bitcoin company in 2013. And then I was looking at my options, and I found my
partners at BTC China. So the rest is history, so to speak. And so what is that history?
Yeah, so basically, I talked about in my book in the promise of Bitcoin a little bit,
basically. I've got it here too. Yeah. I've got my copy right here. Yeah. So just a brief history
is I started BTC China as a co-founder CEO. So it was actually the very first Bitcoin exchange
in China. It was launched as a website in 2011. And then I came on board in early 13. And then
we got venture funding. We were the first
crypto company in all of Asia to get venture financing in early 2013. At the time, the actual
earliest exchange is actually MT Gox based in Japan. Of course, Mark Karpeles, everyone knows
history. By late 2013, the trading volumes on our side actually exceeded that of MT Gox. So for a
while, we reigned as the king of the hill, if you will, for Bitcoin exchanges. And at the time,
there was no regulation. It was all free for all, right? Looking back, it's kind of crazy to think
that back then there was no identity verification, no need for KYC. It was bank accounts galore,
people moving money in, moving out. Now, the amounts are small by today's comparison, but literally people were buying Bitcoin, withdrawing, you know, hundreds
or thousands of Bitcoins, you know, willy nilly. It's kind of the Wild West days, literally.
So how does that contrast with what we're seeing in China now?
Oh, well, it's a huge, huge difference. So historically, people recall in late 2013,
that's when the rally went to $1,200.
It passed the price of gold measured per ounce.
And that's when China had its first announcement banning Bitcoin on December 5th of 2013.
So technically, it didn't ban Bitcoin.
What it really did was just place caution.
It tells people that Bitcoin is legal to own, but you couldn't buy things.
You couldn't conduct commerce in Bitcoin. So there's some
companies and coffee shops and restaurants and car dealerships trying to accept Bitcoin as payment.
But once that sort of regulation came out, it froze the market and the market crashed a little
bit. And then the bear market came in 2014. Of course, MT Gox, that bankruptcy came about as
well. So a bunch of bad news came in early 2014 and a sort of frozen market in a
very bearish state for the next two, two and a half, three years. Yeah. So do you, having seen
all of the different levels of regulation around the world, we know it's coming, obviously it's
at this point, I think Bitcoin is too hard to ignore for regulators. Do you think that regulation is a threat or a potential positive for the space
moving forward? Or both? The way I see it is nothing can hurt Bitcoin, right? The only thing
that can hurt Bitcoin is if it were useless. And because it was designed to be impervious
to control and regulation and censorship,
I'm speaking very optimistically,
very much like a Bitcoin maximalist,
that nothing can hurt it.
You can punch it, you can ignore it,
but it doesn't hurt Bitcoin, right?
The real regulators, the government,
they can ignore it and the Bitcoin will still go up and still be more popular amongst its people.
Or you could try to suffocate it, regulate it to death, and Bitcoin will still survive.
So we see it already.
We see countries like China trying to regulate it tightly, trying to practically almost banning it without banning it.
They stopped the commercial companies from
doing business in Bitcoin. They stopped the exchanges from operating. They've stopped the
banks from providing transfer services for Bitcoin transactions. Now they stopped mining activity.
And they've also stopped all the ICOs and token issuance and all the leverage trading, they stopped all that. And I think the
only nail left to hammer in the coffin is to literally declare Bitcoin as illegitimate and
contraband. So they have not done that yet. I think that would be the last hammer in the nail. I don't think that's going to come this year, but it's not crazy to
see it come about in three, four or five years. When Bitcoin hits a million dollars, I think
China's going to get nervous again. So on the one hand, I don't want to see Bitcoin banned in China.
On the other hand, I want to see the factors of Bitcoin being so popular and so successful where China wants to ban Bitcoin.
So it's a tug of war.
So you just said when Bitcoin is a million dollars as if it was a foregone conclusion.
Oh, it's a foregone conclusion.
To me, it's a foregone conclusion, right?
It's kind of like this, Scott.
Unless you can promise me the U.S. will no longer ever print and expand the US dollar circulation amount, unless that happens, Bitcoin reprice will go up because you're measuring something that right? So in this case, there are more US dollars constantly much more than there are Bitcoin.
And Bitcoin's value will just keep going up and up and up.
So for me, it's a foregone conclusion.
Then why does the average person think we're nuts for saying that?
They do because they think the US dollar is stable, right?
They look at the $20 bill.
It's the same looking $20 bill from 5, 10, 20 years ago.
And I say, you know, it's not. $20 bills today are, we are awash in $20 bills, right? You know,
they used to be called the yuppie note, right? $20 could get you so much as a yuppie,
young professional, right? Whereas today, $20 doesn't go very far anymore. It's really sad.
It is really, really sad. It's interesting. China is such a closed,
obviously, economy and country. They have a history of banning things, right? I mean, obviously, the Facebooks and Twitters, and we've heard it all, Google's, and sort of build their
own version of everything that's popular everywhere else. And we now see a central
bank digital currency being built. We all know that's
not Bitcoin. But do you think that the Chinese view is that we build our own central bank
digital currency, less privacy, more control of the money supply, push Bitcoin out?
Well, here's my take. So you're absolutely right that China has suffocated the foreign
versions, whether it's Twitter, Google, Facebook,
and all that, and they try to build their own sort of uneven, unlevel playing field.
But what you've noticed is China has never tried to build its own internet that's cut off from the
rest of the world. They're trying to, but the internet is still the same internet. There's
still the same protocols, the same fundamental systems like the DNS, IP, and web browsing standards and HTTP standards and all that stuff. Now, I know there's
a great firewall in China, there's all that stuff, whitelisting and all that stuff, but fundamentally,
it's still the same internet, even though the connections may be at risk. With Bitcoin,
for them to ignore Bitcoin and to build their own system, here's a big place where it doesn't work
out because Bitcoin's value is actually in it being an open global system, right? If you cut
off from that, you build your own, by definition, if it's your own, unless it's an open,
decentralized version, then it cannot compete with Bitcoin, right? If China were to say,
okay, let me take Bitcoin code, fork it, instead of calling it Litecoin, call it China coin,
and truly be decentralized and let all the miners mine it with China having no control over it,
right? Then that might have a chance at competing against Bitcoin. But if it's a controlled private system
that is managed and authorized, whether it's a Chinese government or the Chinese central bank,
then by definition, it doesn't compete with Bitcoin. So that's a fallacy. And most people
don't understand that point. And they'll embrace the digital RMB. And I'm like, for me, the digital RMB is just a fourth
version of the RMB, right? The fourth version, right? Because let me share with you this insight,
okay? Even the US dollar, how many versions of the US dollar are there? There's actually three
versions circulating in parallel today. Here's what I mean. There is a paper note version,
the US dollar, the $20 bill, the $100 bill, the $1 bill. There's a coin version,
right? The quarter, the nickel dime, the Anthony B, the silver dollar, whatever,
the pennies and nickels. There's even the half dollar, right, from years ago.
And then there's an electronic US dollar, which is the account balance you see in the bank deposits.
So these three versions actually are interchangeable, but the circulation amount
is actually different. Think about that. The amount of coins, the value of all the US dollar
coins comes up to a total amount, which is different than the value of all the paper bills,
which is different than the value of all the electronic money in the Fed wire system. That's
aside from the paper notes and the paper bills. So there's three versions of the US dollar,
just like there's three versions of the Chinese RMB just like there's three versions of Chinese RMB.
Now, the digital ERMB, the so-called CDBC, or if you will, DCEP, that new thing that's coming out that's being tested all over China, it's just the fourth version.
It's monetarily the same value.
It's pegged to the same value as the other three versions.
And it's interchangeable, but it inflates at the same rate.
Yeah, which makes perfect sense. Obviously, not a competitor to Bitcoin. And it's interchangeable, but it inflates at the same rate.
Yeah, which makes perfect sense.
Obviously, not a competitor to Bitcoin.
Literally, you could argue that a central bank digital currency is the furthest version of fiat from what Bitcoin is. Because it even allows more money printing, more control, and less privacy.
Exactly. Exactly. More control, more scrutiny, less privacy, and more fear of God, right?
It's scary, right?
To me, it's like you really surrender your rights as a private citizen.
Yeah.
If you don't control the money, you don't control anything.
And so even a slight bit of control with cash and things like that gives citizens a chance. So what's interesting to me is that, you know, we saw Bitcoin obviously drop
from 65,000 all the way down to roughly 30,000 to a lot of people, not myself included. The
narrative was China banning mining. But if you listen to people who understood Bitcoin before
that, their biggest fear was that China would
centralize mining or take control of the network. And it's such a conflicting view because anyone
who understands it knows that China is missing out on their opportunity to control Bitcoin.
Yeah. So let me give you my two takes on this. All along, all the people who are naysayers saying,
oh, Bitcoin is bad because China
controls and centralizes the mining. I tell them that's not true. The analogy is that, hey,
if all the mining or most of the mining is conducted and empowered by, let's say, the male
half of the species, of the human species, where the females were not doing it, let's just make
that assumption, then does it mean that the men control Bitcoin and women have no say? That's not true, right?
Bitcoin is not sexist. It's not like the men control it and the women don't control it,
right? Bitcoin doesn't have country borders. It's not that Chinese miners control it because
Chinese miners are just like the men, right? No different than the XY chromosome versus the XX
chromosome controlling Bitcoin, right?
So for me to draw a line and say, oh, the Chinese government is controlling all the Bitcoin mining, that's not true.
And now what happened in May and June, the actual banning of mining in China,
I'm actually happy because that will prove the point that Bitcoin was never centralized and is never going to be centralized.
Now that Bitcoin, a lot of the mining machines are being shipped over to the US and maybe dispersed in other countries of the world. So be it. Even if the majority of the hash power is in the US, the US won't control the mining of Bitcoin any more so than Bitcoin
itself can be controlled. So I'm actually happy this has happened. Same, same. So obviously,
both of us kind of believe that a million dollar
Bitcoin is a foregone conclusion. If you step out, if you step out and attempt to play devil's
advocate, what would you say are the legitimate threats, if any, to that happening?
If so, trying to be very, very thoughtful and to be very sincere in answering that question. a more sort of sound money principle where they really refrain from excessive printing,
excessive devaluing, where they start to balance their budgets, the national budgets,
so they don't run into a deficit spending that requires all the additional fiscal
money loosening policies and all the issuing of all the bonds and the debts and the
treasuries and all that stuff. If the governments of the world can sort of move away from ever
chasing GDP growth, wanting to see better numbers from the lower left to the upper right,
if they can sort of get behind that and really manage fiscal spending and
manage monetary policy and potentially going back to a asset-backed money, such as gold-backed
or partially Bitcoin-backed, then I think Bitcoin's outlook, Bitcoin's going to slow
down in terms of its competitive against fiat money.
Whereas today, what the governments and central banks are doing is, what's the expression? The insane are running
the asylum. What's the expression? The asylum is just run by the, I forgot the expression,
but you get my point, right? It's mayhem. It's mayhem. Like, I can predict very reliably in five years, the money supply will be even much more than today in probably, you know, three digit percentage points.
Right.
In the five years from now, each president in the US will be responsible for printing even ever greater amount of money. Right. You see these sharp rises, these hockey puck of the US money
supply. And to me, that's crazy. That's what's giving Bitcoin legs. Literally, the US government,
the central bank, the Federal Reserve, in coordination, in collusion with the ECB,
the European Central Bank, with all the other central banks around the world, they're just like,
it's like a race to print as much money as possible. And that's the shooting themselves
in the foot.
That's what's giving Bitcoin legs.
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dollars is unicorns and fairy dust, right? Because we know that none of those things are going to
happen. But yes, a return to a gold standard or something and responsible fiscal monetary policy
might do it. Exactly. I think that's a better way to say it. Responsible fiscal monetary policy. Okay. So we're good for now. We're good for now. So basically,
that's why I'm like so confident. So, so optimistic. Like if the U S does well, economy,
economy wise, and all the fiscal wise, Hey, great. Good for the country. If the U S prints more
money, Hey, great, great for Bitcoin. So I'm hedged both ways, right?
So it's like great economy, good for Bitcoin, terrible economy, good for Bitcoin.
Whatever happens, good for Bitcoin.
It's a little bit sad, but that's sort of what I think is going to happen.
It's sad, but at least we have an option now.
Because 20 years ago, the situation wasn't much different, just a little less amplified and people didn't really have an option.
That's right. That's right.
So, you know, you've obviously been building in this space for 10 years now.
And a lot of people would argue that in the early years, the 2017 bull run, certainly the 2013 bull run that you talked about. We talked about institutional adoption and big money,
but we all know that the infrastructure was not there yet to support real
money coming into this space, which I think exists now.
You've chosen to start a wallet company, right?
Yeah.
And I think one of the things that was lacking before was that people
didn't understand how to secure their assets.
They were afraid of it. So they just didn't buy Bitcoin, right? Yeah, that was me in 2011.
Yeah, exactly. So what problems did you see recently that caused you to say, listen,
I want to focus on a wallet. This is what I want to do. This is where we have a gap in the market and we need improvement. Yeah, it's actually a long story in the making.
In 2011, we didn't talk about wallets. It was just the Bitcoin program or nothing, right? So
there was no concept of a wallet. The wallet concept came later. And the earliest wallets
were custodial exchanges, where exchanges would allow you to store Bitcoins on the exchange on the platform, whether it's Coinbase since 2012 or BTC China, Bitstamp, Kraken and MT Gox.
So over the years, even at BTC China, we later renamed to BTCC, I actually launched two separate web wallets.
These are custodial wallets. The
first one was called JustPay. It was called PicassoPay, JustPay. The second one was called
Mobi. One was desktop browser-based. The second was mobile phone-based. These were both custodial
wallets. No different than putting your coins on Coinbase or an exchange. In hindsight, looking back,
that was not the responsible thing to do. But at the time I was running an exchange,
that was the right thing. That was like the natural thing to do, to launch a custodial wallet.
The reason is that when I launched a custodial wallet, people are entrusting me and my company
in guarding their assets. And
of course, there's hacker risk, there's a failure of business risk, there's regulatory risk,
there's a theft risk and all that stuff. So for various reasons, looking back, we did not give
the users control of their own private keys. So having been sort of experienced that, I sold my company, the new management team
took over, they controlled everything. And then some of the users, some of my existing friends
had trouble getting the funds out, taught me a lesson that the only responsive way to teach my
friends or to let them store Bitcoin is to give them full control of the private keys. And then
I was a real user of Harbor wallets in 2018 and 17.
And from the earliest ones, the cold storage solutions from Armory to Electrum cold storage to
Ledger, the Trezor was the first hardware wallet that was announced in the early years.
Trezor, Ledger, even had samples Credit card size samples
With Bluetooth technology, NFC technology
Plug cables
Batteries, e-ink displays
I've played with a lot of fancy, fancy wallets
All these years
But there was one common theme
They were all too complicated
And fundamentally
They weren't as safe as they were
Cracked up to be
Because all of them required constant software updates and firmware updates.
If a chip-based hardware wallet was so safe, why would you constantly need to update the firmware?
It was always to patch holes, patch zero-day exploits, and so on and so forth.
So finally, I decided I had enough.
I said, you know what? I have an idea. Let's go back to the basics. The classic paper wallet, which Michael
Caldwell turned into a Cassatius coin. I don't know if you remember these Cassatius coins,
right? Which we then copied at BTCC to make BTCC mint coins. These were pre-made coins with metal
coins, titanium, with a paper wallet stuck on it using temper
evidence sticker technology.
And it was a loaded coin.
We sell it from BTCC.
And looking back, that was really easy for people because they would actually be able
to buy Bitcoin, hold it, and put it away, whether it's in the desk drawer or put it
in the safe deposit box.
And they can then hold it for many years.
And best of all, they don't panic sell it
at the exchange when the first price comes down, right? So many people thank me. They say, oh,
thank you for making these BTCC mint coins because it actually saved my bacon because I didn't panic
sell the coins. Whereas all the coins I had on the exchange, I hit panic sell on that day and
they liquidated, right? So by having it sort of half a degree removed in a drawer or in a safety
deposit box, it sort of holds your,
hold your horses and not get swept up in the emotions of panic selling.
And, and so using that technology, we developed, you know, what,
what today is called the ballet wallet. Do you have it in front of you, Scott?
Yeah. I've got to open the package. I've got a pack of three of them right here.
For the people listening,
they won't hear it, but I'll open one
for those who are watching.
Well,
actually, they won't hear it.
This is the wallet that you can actually hear
because it's made of stainless steel.
You can
actually hear it by knocking somewhere. This is the wallet
you can touch, you can feel, you can hear it, you can almost hear it by knocking somewhere this is a wall you can you can touch you can feel
you can hear it you can almost taste it but actually one special thing is you can actually
smell it too i'm going to show you this really cool thing that one open it let's open it let's
opening yep you slide it out uh it's a stainless steel card it's kind of heavy it's heavier than
your classic credit card it It's even heavier than those
platinum or titanium cards. Some fancy people have fancy credit cards. It's even heavier than that.
Right. How do you feel it? How do you like it? It's incredible. It makes me feel like I'm
carrying an American Express black card. Yeah. Yeah. It's a Bitcoin. It's what we call the real
Bitcoin card. Okay. So the name is called real Bitcoin and it's serious.
It's a bearer asset, right?
So you're familiar with bearer assets.
In the old days, it was bearer bonds.
Bearer asset is basically where the holder, the owner of the item is a person who has
physical control over it.
It's not a titled asset.
So in contrast to titled asset, like real estate, cars and boats, stock accounts, bank accounts are titled assets.
Titled assets, by definition, are controlled by a third party.
This is something people don't think about.
All our life, we grow up, we have a lot of our wealth in titled assets, real estate, bank accounts, stock brokerage accounts, retirement accounts, bonds, even things like frequent flyer miles, hotel reward points.
Things like cars and any sort of large ticket item, titled assets.
They're tied to my name, my identity.
And if I'm ever blacklisted, if I'm ever on the sanctions list, they deny me access to it.
They control when or not i can sell right whereas a bearer asset is a cash gold diamonds jewelry bitcoin
for the first time we have bitcoin as a bearer asset physical bearer asset so scott here's a
challenge you can see it you can feel it you can touch it touch to feel the feel the logo
it's incredible lost it's really raised and here's the smelling
part if you scratch the qr code gently your finger with your fingernails go ahead and bring
it up to your nose and smell it yeah it smells great wow see that's like an air freshener yeah
yeah it's a special ballet sort of scent it's it's partly for anti-counterfeiting purposes
uh it's partly for branding purposes rightounterfeiting purposes. It's partly for
branding purposes, right? You see me, I'm putting it on my neck like a sample at the store. It's
really incredible. Yeah. So the other best part I forgot to tell you, it's ready to go. It's ready
to use. You can give this to your grandma. You can give it to your parents, your siblings,
your coworkers, people who are not in crypto, or even people who are in crypto. It's ready to go. Literally,
you open it up from the box, you can send Bitcoin to it and you're good to go. And it supports over
100 different currencies. Oh, that's interesting. It's not just a Bitcoin wallet. It's obviously
the ERC-20. Yeah. All the Ethereum, all the ERC-20 even Binance Smart Chain stuff, Litecoin, Dogecoin, very popular Zcash, all the cryptocurrencies you can think of, XRP, you know, even stablecoin, USDT, right?
You could load up $1,000, load up $10,000 of USDT or USDC.
And then you could literally, it's a savings bond or if it's, you know, it's a bear asset, right?
And people use this for poker tournaments,
for poker games. It's really awesome.
Well, they say that possession is nine tenths of the law, right?
It's an old expression about bear assets.
Yeah, exactly. This is a hundred percent possession based. Yeah.
So you just mentioned.
That's why I started this company.
I was really passionate about providing a solution that I could really let my friends and family use and I could sleep at night.
Because I know that with this, because it's open standards-based, even if ballet were not around, your Bitcoins, your cryptocurrency, Ethereum, Litecoin, they'll be safe as long as you have this card.
There's no dependency on us as a company.
It's completely open standards-based.
So I really sleep well at
night to know the security and the safety and longevity. It's the only wallet, by the way,
that's designed for 20 years, right? If you want to hodl for 20 years, this is the safest choice.
And you do suggest that people lock it up in a safe or put it in a safety deposit box or?
Yeah, there's many options depending on what how much amount obviously if
it's just a few hundred dollars if you feel comfortable right uh putting in some people
carry with them just a few hundred dollars that's fine but you have thousands or more then you want
to put it somewhere what you consider safe whether it's a home safe hide it in the refrigerator under
the under the rug or or hide in the bank uh bank vault somewhere and pay for that storage service.
And we're eager to announce a new service coming up that's going to even allow for more choices
for the wealthy people. So I'm curious, for those who don't understand, what would happen if you
lost it? Well, if you lost it, we've turned digital virtual currency, right? The government
still call it virtual currency, right? We've
turned cryptocurrency into physical form. So once it's in physical form as a bearer asset,
it's no different than any other physical asset you have. Gold, silver, diamond, earrings,
gold necklaces, cash, a stack of cash. So what happens if you lose it? You lose it.
So don't lose it. That's the lesson. Yeah, just don't lose it.
Yeah, but the benefit is because it's physical,
your eyes are on it.
It's not going to disappear.
What we hate as human beings
is when things disappear in front of us
where we don't know some voodoo magic
because we screwed up some internet settings
or we press the wrong button
or we forgot a password and things disappear.
We can no longer get access to. That's what we hate. But if something gets stolen in front of us,
then so be it, right? If I misplace it, so be it. What happens when you lose your phone? So be it.
Yeah, right. What happens when you lose your necklace or your diamond ring? Some people do
lose their, some people lose their engagement ring, $20,000 engagement, they lose it on a vacation. Well, so be it.
So that's the thing. So if it's really worth a lot of money, don't bring it on your vacation.
Don't bring that $20,000 ring on your vacation. Or if you do bring it, you better be careful.
So if you have $20,000 of Bitcoin on this card, don't bring it with you everywhere you go. Put
it somewhere safe. Makes perfect sense. So you mentioned that a lot of people use it to play poker. I read that you're an avid poker player.
Yeah, well, that's still one of my hobbies. Yeah, I love the mental aspect of the game.
So interestingly, I often make the comparison between poker and trading, trading in general, but cryptocurrencies specifically.
I'm curious if you see those parallels and what things you do see as parallels, if so.
So I'm not a big trader, obviously. I'm more of a hodler. I hold. But for me, poker has a lot of
analogies to real life. So for me, playing poker is a great distraction. It really sharpens my
mental skills because poker is a game of incomplete information,
right?
You're not just playing the cards you have.
You're playing against people around the table, some of who are more experienced, some of
who are less experienced, some are more wild, some are more risk-taking, some play for game
theory, some play just based on their gut instinct of how they see you, right?
So in that sense, it's very much like trading.
Like, for example, the latest price swings from $65,000 down to $30,000, right?
So, you know, earlier in the year, I predicted this could very much be a double top year, right?
So even last year, even late 2018, I was predicting that prices would start rallying late 2020 and the bull market years this year, 2021.
So, Scott, we're in the middle of the bull market year and we saw the first peak in April at sixty five thousand dollars effectively.
And I am fully confident we're going to see the real peak come in the second half of this year, probably in late Q3 or Q4, around October
through December timeframe. And that's when I think it will peak out easily over 150K,
more likely over 200K, and even a good chance at over 300K. And why does it do with poker?
Because it's all human. It's kind of like a human nature. It's kind of like this, this thing where what's expression,
where we want it to happen. So it happens, right?
Self-fulfilling self-fulfilling prophecy, self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
When I, when I,
when I yell on Twitter is that's going to happen this year and people all
believe it and maybe it really does happen. Right. So, so there are a lot,
you find a lot of bulls out there predicting a
big comeback later this year. And when enough of that sound, that's when prices go up, right? So
we see that in the last two weeks, right? It went up 50% from $29,000, $30,000 to now over $45,000.
Right. I mean, going up four or five times for Bitcoin is a very casual move.
It doesn't every year or two.
So as much as the numbers seem huge, if you think of it on a percentage basis, it's really not even that aggressive.
It's really not that aggressive of a prediction.
Go up three or four times, you're talking about.
Yeah, exactly.
So I've already tampered down the magnitude, right? Whereas in 2013, whereas in 2017, we saw 10 times, 20 times, you know, to the peak, right? Now we're just saying, hey, give me a healthy five times, you've seen every cycle, right? But do you think that in this modern world, that for that to happen, we need to see some sort of news or fundamental catalyst?
The Tesla buys $1.5 billion or El Salvador's legal tender, those sort of things.
Do you think that there needs to be a spark?
We will. We will.
It's not the first spark.
No one's going to see this first spark okay it's
kind of like the wildfires that are burning i know that's a sad topic but by the time you see it it's
already burning you don't see it there's always that first spark somewhere whether it's whether
it's arson or whether it's by nature right right it's very hard to go backwards and analyze it because you don't have cameras all over the nature, right?
So by the time you see the wildfire, it's already going crazy.
And then it's going to go crazy for even longer.
So it's no different.
When the bull market comes, by the time you realize the bull market, it's already gone to $100,000.
I think today we're at $46,000, $45,000.
No one's thinking about it much.
But I think very soon when Bitcoin crosses $65,000,
it's going to jump up to $70,000, $80,000 very quickly.
And it might linger at $80,000, $90,000 for a while.
And then it's going to take a peak above $100,000.
And when that goes, man, it might come back to correction.
But when it's steady above $100,000,
it's going to be a slow march up to 150, 200, 250, 300.
And that's when FOMO kicks in.
That's when everybody forgot about the fact that Bitcoin was banned in China, the fact that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the bad news.
That's when the good news start rolling in.
You have other companies, whether it's Intel, Microsoft, or whatever, Apple, will say, hey, we want to buy some Bitcoin on our balance sheet. And you have, you know, one day in my book, I have 15 predictions. I say even the Warren Buffett's of the world will turn
around and say, hey, yeah, maybe we should add some Bitcoin to our balance sheet because the
US dollar is just so underperforming. Well, we haven't seen Warren Buffett do it,
but we've seen his contemporaries, right? I mean, Ray Dalio was a huge critic of Bitcoin.
Exactly. Paul Tudor Jones, Bill Miller, Druckenmiller. I mean, all of these guys at one point were just, even Michael Saylor was dismissive of Bitcoin.
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And the way I see it is I'm not the smartest person in the world,
but I'm smart enough to know that smart people eventually will get it.
Right. They may be naysayers at first, but they will eventually get it unless they're really,
really stubborn. Right. I mean, there's the term, strong opinions loosely held, right?
The smartest people in the world are the ones who can actually process new information and
admit they were wrong and change their opinion. Exactly. And we're going to see more of that. And that will all come compressed in Q4 of this year.
And that's what fuels the bull market.
It's so interesting, Phil.
You say, you know, all the news will come in at once.
Why is it?
And this is human nature as well.
But why is it that-
It's not crime.
They don't, there's no group coordinated schedule where the orchestra, where the conductor says, everybody bring out your good news.
There's no conductor.
But what happens is it's just this game theory where when good news come out, other people want to announce the good news too.
So this is –
And the same on the way down.
That's what I was going to ask.
Same on the way down.
Exactly.
We're one country.
Exactly.
China, India, Russia, all three of them somehow have some news banning Bitcoin every time
the price drops. Energy, ransomware, only for criminals. We have the same narratives over and
over and over again, but only when price is dropping. Yeah. And then people do panic. What's
funny is it actually works. People panic. They dump the market, the futures, the leveraged
positions all get cut. And it really causes panic and really comes down, right?
We saw that.
We saw from 65, boom, boom, boom, down to 40, down to 30, you know, went to down 29,000,
28,000.
And it was like, wow, crazy.
You would think that people would run by now, right?
Do you think that that was literally people panic selling?
Do you think that was a function of too much leverage in the system?
Do you think that it was manipulated as people love to say? It's combination of all three, right? There's panic selling, function of too much leverage in the system? Do you think that it was manipulated, as people love to say?
It's combination of all three, right?
There's panic selling.
There's too much leverage.
It's also the human nature where experts are predicting people will panic and predicting there'll be closeout positions.
That's why they're selling ahead of the thing, right?
There's a lot of professional traders, as you know, that will actually do it, not because they don't believe in Bitcoin, but they believe in the momentum trading aspect.
That's literally why, if you believe technical analysis and looking at charts works,
literally the reason that it works and that patterns form is because that's just where
people are going to either be fearful or where they're going to be greedy. And that's really
what you're looking at. Everything that you do is a manifestation of human emotion.
Yeah, I love the analysis for the Fibonacci numbers,
the Fibonacci retracements.
I'm sure you're familiar with these terms.
I'm not as much, but when I hear these,
I look at these trials, like, oh yeah,
it's literally a self-fulfilling prophecy.
People do it.
And because you can't prove it one way or the other, right?
It's not like you can get all the traders in the room and say, hey, why did you guys move this way, right? So your wallet, as you said,
can hold a number of coins. It's not just Bitcoin. Do you have other coins that you're excited about,
believe in, or not specifically, even what's your take on the market as a whole beyond Bitcoin,
which is all that we've talked about?
Yeah, for disclosure purposes, we hold all the coins.
I myself own Bitcoin.
That's my single largest position.
I own Ethereum and Litecoin.
And I actually don't, off the top of my head,
I don't know whether my Litecoin is worth more,
my Ethereum is worth more.
It's a fraction of my Bitcoin holdings.
So I'm a Bitcoin bull. I still have some of the fork coins from Bitcoin. I haven't touched them. I haven't bothered to sell them. In hindsight, I should have sold all of them.
But these days, I don't even think about it anymore. So for me, I wrote this book,
The Promise of Bitcoin. Unashamedly, it's all about Bitcoin.
I don't talk about blockchain applications.
I don't talk about all the other shit coins or altcoins.
For me, the reason I talk about Bitcoin first is because it's really for the new audience, right?
Crypto is hard enough.
If you say, hey, spray to them and say, oh, buy all these coins at this rate, it's going
to overwhelm them. So what I tell people is read this book, buy Bitcoin first. Once you're familiar
with it, then you can venture out and buy other coins and other platforms, other tokens as you
wish. But to get your foot wet, to get your feet wet, you have to start somewhere. And Bitcoin's
a great place to start. And especially treat Bitcoin as a long-term investment and not as a short-term
sort of a strategy, trying to make money quick. It can be a gateway drug, certainly,
for a lot of people into the other coins. And I'm addicted. I'm addicted, right?
You and me both. You and me both. But that said, obviously, there are other potentially life-changing applications of
blockchain technology that we saw.
DeFi and obviously NFTs.
Do any of those excite you or is it just not your game?
So truthfully, it's not my game.
I only have so much bandwidth.
I'm trying to run a full-time company here.
And so I don't myself get to play with all the newest DeFi,
the newest NFT stuff, but I try to keep updated on all that stuff.
So our wallet actually supports all the DeFi stuff.
We're launching a Wallet Connect API soon.
So it allows people to connect all the DeFi platforms,
the OpenSea and the NFT stuff.
And we also allow scoring of NFTs.
So we already have support for ERC721 NFTs,
such as CryptoKitties, CryptoPunks.
We're going to launch ERC1155 support soon.
And we're going to launch some other NFT platform support soon.
So we really are, from a wallet company perspective,
we're agnostic.
I, myself, and much more of a Bitcoin maximalist investor, long-term investment. But we have ability for people to change. So we partner with several vendors where you're allowed to do what they call crypto-crypto swap between Bitcoin, Ethereum, and all the other tokens. you can change back and forth. Also, if you have a bank account in the US,
if you have a credit card or even bank account in Europe,
you can buy crypto directly onto the card using one of our vendors.
So that's a quick way to onboard people.
Yeah.
It makes it easy, right?
As a gift and someone to hold it, right? You don't have to worry about account passwords or anything like that.
Yeah, it's really, really a cool product.
So you said you make 15 predictions in your book. What are your, what are your, some of your
favorites? So I talked about the Warren Buffett one. So this 15 predictions actually number is
actually the last chapter. When Warren Buffett buys Bitcoin might be my time to sell, to be
quite honest. I don't know. That might be the ultimate top signal. Or Peter Schiff.
You're right. You're right. That is, that would be a top signal. That would be a top signal. Yes. More institutional
investors will participate. This is sort of generic one, but it's happening. Oh, regulators
will approve a Bitcoin ETF. So I'm very confident that's going to happen. I know it's been in the
making for many, many years. Yeah. A lot of countries have done it. So I know it's been in the making for many, many years. A lot of countries have
done it. So I think it's inevitable. Yeah. And also prediction 10, I say China's domination
won't continue forever. So this book was published on May 18th. This was before
the official ban and all that of China, the mining and stuff like that. So it's coming true,
right? So China's dominance will decrease. More women in bitcoin so i'm eager to see that you know
in my company we we have a lot of female uh uh members in our employee base so i'm very happy
that uh we're not just uh run by a bunch of men yeah so mining will continue to be robust um
yeah and the last one was about regulation My last prediction is the US and other countries
will create new crypto regulatory agencies. So the idea there is the reason regulating crypto
has been so difficult is because crypto is neither, it's not truly a stock, a security,
not truly a foreign currency, not truly a real estate, right? And not truly like a futures
commodities kind of thing.
So it's kind of like this hybrid unicorn, crazy animal thing.
All right.
So how do you regulate it?
So that's why all the regulatory agencies, when they're asked to regulate it,
they only see a certain angle of it, right?
So that's why it's been so hard.
So I predict that in the coming years, serious countries like the United States, Europe,
they will actually have to establish a new agency
and name a czar, so to speak,
that will regulate crypto
and basically take that regular power
away from all the other agencies
and they will regulate it squarely and cleanly.
And I think that's the only way to solve it.
So that's my 15th prediction.
And I guess the interesting question then
is how those will interact with one another.
Because you're going to see that people are going to move
where they're treated best, right?
People are going to move to the country
where they're treated best.
Americans will have no option.
We're going to have to pay our taxes
no matter where we go.
For other people, I think that-
I'm still on that.
Yeah, it's going to be a lot of arbitrage, right?
That's what you mean when people move countries trying to find the best, better jurisdiction. And down the road, the UN will
have to be involved, right? I think lately what you saw was there's a coalition of countries
trying to clamp down on corporate tax escaping, right? Where countries give really low corporate
tax. So there's a lot of corporate tax evasion. So there's a cartel, not a cartel, but what do you call it, a coalition of countries now saying we're going to have a minimum corporate tax rate so not to allow companies to leap, to jump around.
So I think that's going to happen in crypto as well. I think probably it will take 15 years for the UN and other global trade groups, whether it's G7 or the G20, to get involved and say, regulation
of crypto will be at that level.
And that's going to be very serious, right?
Think about it.
I mean, Bitcoin, you know, 12 years ago was like a piece of software.
Now it's going to be something at the global stage, at the G7, the G20, the United Nations
level, the World Bank, right?
So to me, it's huge progress.
We've made it.
We just saw it freeze the entire United States infrastructure bill.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's just a very small thing.
I agree with you. They're going to have to create a sovereign like agencies specific to crypto and have to start talking about it on a global stage. I mean, most things we've seen
in the last few years, nothing has really surprised me in the Bitcoin space. El Salvador surprised me.
Okay. El Salvador accepted-
The country choice or just that one country?
No, that a country this early decided to adopt Bitcoin as legal tender. Do you think we'll see
more of that soon? We will. We will. Now, El Salvador,
very honest, I haven't been there. I don't know whether the announcement is more lip service or actually there's a lot of actual execution behind. I'd love to go visit and find out whether I can
pay Bitcoin at a hotel, at a restaurant. I don't know yet. It may be just lip service for now.
But if it didn't come this bull market cycle, it's starting to come next bull market cycle. So I'm confident more and more countries will
allow Bitcoin as legal tender. I mean, practically in Japan, you can now. I think, I don't know by
law, I haven't been to Japan lately due to COVID, but many, many businesses are accepting Bitcoin
in Japan, as far as I know. So it's really, it's becoming a common thing
for businesses to allow acceptance of Bitcoin. There are certainly pockets around the world
where adoption is happening. We just haven't seen it sort of proliferate on that grand scale.
Yeah. And I want to comment on your word adoption. So for most people, when they hear adoption is
the way you phrase adoption as in the usage of Bitcoin to pay for things.
I've had a change of heart on that concept.
I know in the early 2011, 2013, for me, Bitcoin adoption was about companies and business.
Peer-to-peer cash.
Sure.
Yeah.
Right.
Peer-to-peer cash like Tesla accepting Bitcoin.
But lately, I've had a more different leaning towards that.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I realized that that's not the critical thing. I think Bitcoin to me personally, and I think to more people,
should be viewed as an investment, as a diversification of their asset in cash or
in other asset classes. So for me, Bitcoin staying in my wallet and its value going up,
to me, that's using Bitcoin as much as it is for me to use Bitcoin,
actually spend it to buy coffee or buy a Tesla.
Yeah, nobody wants to do that anymore.
Yeah, in my mind, Bitcoin is your savings account.
You know, dollars are for spending and Bitcoin is for saving.
I 100% agree with you.
And it's something that you hold forever and pass on to your children, ideally.
And frankly, you know, when it-
And pass it on to a ballet wallet.
Yeah, exactly.
And frankly-
This way, you don't take your Bitcoins to the grave with you, right?
A lot, too many people, you've heard of these people who, most famously, David Kleinman,
he had a USB encrypted drive on his necklace the whole time.
And then he passed away young, you know, to some disease.
And his family thinks that that drive has, you know, whatever millions or billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin stored in it, but they
can't get to it because only he knew the memory. And unfortunately, that you take it to the grave
with you. Yeah, right. So whatever hard or what are you using, whatever passphrase, whatever
account, secret key, if you just keep it memorized, great for you, but you're going to take it to the
grave with you. Yeah, if there's a timely crazy. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Perfect. Well, we're out of time. So where can everybody,
where can everybody follow you? Grab a wallet and buy the book.
So on Twitter, I'm my, my handle is Bobby C Lee, B O B B Y C L E E. I just crossed over
a hundred thousand followers. And most importantly, if you follow me on Twitter,
if you're in the US, you have a chance to win a Tesla Cybertruck. So I have volunteered to give
a free Tesla Cybertruck to a follower of mine who retweets my Cybertruck tweets. So I made this
prediction last summer that the price of one Bitcoin can actually buy you a Tesla Cybertruck.
And the Tesla Cybertruck, even though it's been delayed to next year, the base price is only $39,900. And today the Bitcoin price has
exceeded that. So I'm going to honor my promise to give away a free Cybertruck. I'm going to
announce a winner at the end of the year. Just follow me on Twitter to do that. Otherwise,
you could feel free to buy this book, The Promise of Bitcoin on Amazon. You can get it on Kindle.
I think there's an audio book version coming out later this summer.
That's what my publisher says.
It's published by McGraw-Hill.
So very excited.
It's already a Wall Street Journal bestseller.
And then for the ballet wallets, you can get this on our website, balletcrypto.com.
It's only $35 in the US, free shipping.
You can buy on Amazon.
You can buy it all over Europe as well, Amazon.
So it's a very affordable hardware wallet, cold storage.
Awesome. Thank you so much. You've been doing this over Europe as well. Amazon. So it's very affordable hardware wallet, cold storage.
Thank you so much.
You've been doing this now for 10 years.
I can't even imagine what 2031.
I can't even imagine what 2031 will look like if we have this conversation.
10 more years.
I can't wait.
I can't wait.
I'm going to be older, but I'm going to be happier.
I think, well, inevitably we'll all be older.
The happiness I hope for to be true for all of us. So thank you very much for having this conversation. I encourage everybody. I'm holding this in my hand, man. It's really an impressive. I can't wait to
give it away as a friend or give it as a tip or something. I will. I will absolutely do that.
That's an awesome idea. And thank you so much once again. Okay, great. Thank you, Scott. Bye.