The Wolf Of All Streets - Altcoin Market Cycle Deep Dive | Crypto Town Hall With Alex Kruger, Vinny Lingham, Flood Capital, Dynamo Patrick, Joe McCann, Gracy Chen & Others

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

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Yo, yo, yo, can you hear me? Yeah, you can go ahead and change that title if you want. Give it to the team. You have the power. You have all the power. All the power. Ran, we're getting your show, buddy. Ran, for anyone who wasn't here yesterday, Ran finally had it.

He said, I'm done with the ETFs. I don't care. Let's de-jet. And so here we are. No, I mean, I just think, to be honest,

I'm all for legal discussions and stuff like that, but I just think that we've become, we've just been talking too much about the legal discussions and the ETF discussions.

And the truth is that you can only listen to it a couple of times before it's like, okay, we've heard everything there is to hear. And it just now becomes ridiculous speculation about things that people, you know. Also, it just becomes like insane nuance. This is literally nobody cares about.

Like when it's deep into the legalese of, and listen, I'm glad that we have that perspective and people who can give it, but like when we're on clause 17.9 of law you just i'm asleep yeah i mean ultimately i'm here because i want to make money and i'm here because i want to change the world and uh i'm not sure because i want to talk legalese um i can leave we can leave that to the legal people they can talk legal people and we will i mean we should carry on those discussions um we will i think as much as we carry them on as we get more news, right? I mean, at the core, this is a breaking news show. So when we actually see something that's worth digging into, it just became like week two of digging into the same one line sentence about Ripple or

about Coinbase and such. So I'm glad that we can pivot here and actually talk markets because I think, you know, at our core, that's what we're all here for. Yeah, and I think today we should talk markets. We should talk market cycles. We should talk about, you know, whether this is the right time to invest or whether it's not the right time to invest. And if you are investing, what kind of narratives there are to invest in. Because, you know, the truth is that while everyone has been talking about the Bitcoin ETF for the last month, and Bitcoin has been ranging between $30,000 and $31,000 and literally the Bitcoin ETF for the last month, and Bitcoin has been ranging between 30,000 and 31,000,

and literally been doing that for the last month, there have been a whole lot of other narratives which have been flying. I'll give you some examples, like a roll bit. Roll bit's probably down at 10x in the last month. It's a very, very, very interesting product. It's a very interesting narrative. There's obviously pros and cons. We should probably discuss them.

If you look at Flex Exchange, which is Carl and Sue's exchange, that's done fantastically well the last month. There's been a narrative around trading bots, which are trading bots that allow you to trade directly from your Telegram messenger. And those are doing

10x's and 100x's in a day. That's where we're at. It's like a new meme coin trend. So I just thought what we should do is we should maybe for a couple of days just not talk about legals until the legal discussions need to come back and let's actually have some fun and talk about – there's East Paris,'s uh east um east paris which is happening right now um which i think a lot of people that that that are on this on on the panel

here today are at the east uh east uh event in paris at the moment so we should probably listen to what's going on there and what the future is so i think slightly slightly different uh show format today uh maybe mario will join if he wakes up. Hopefully he'll wake up pretty soon. Yeah, but I mean, I guess that's what I thought we should do today. Let me know in the comments what you guys think

and if this is saying that you want to see more of or less of, which would be very cool to get everybody's views. Awesome. Well, I'm excited to handle that we put together

a lot of fresh faces, old friends, people who could definitely talk to this. A lot of people actually on here that I was following when I first got into crypto at the very beginning, looking for trade ideas at Alpha myself. So it's awesome. So I guess we'll just go ahead and get started. Alex Kruger, you're here first. Maybe give us the broad strokes on the markets and where you think we're at. I think that we should just set the table with context, maybe get the correlation conversation out of the way and where you think markets're at. I think that we should just set the table with context, maybe get the correlation conversation

out of the way, and where you think markets are in general, and where Bitcoin and altcoins fit into that. I think also, just before you start, you've got Don Crypto. DMs all day. We'd love to get him up. Go ahead, Alex. Hey, guys. Where we're at, I think we're at the point of the market where

we're still going up, but the easy money is behind us in the sense that in the first half of the year everybody's been so bearish that it's been rather pretty easy to be bullish. And we had quite a few catalysts to push us very much to where we are right now, which has been pretty good. I mean, Bitcoin and ETH are up 80%.

I see a lot of people complaining, upset, and a lot of people still bearish and concerned, which I think stems largely from the main problem we have in crypto, which is not regulators, is not Gensler, it's PTSD. That's the main problem that we have. That being said, I think what happened last week between Ripple and the SEC, I think it set up the stage for some sort of an alt season. To be honest, I expected much more follow-through. I personally, if it counts, you were talking about basically altcoins and Dejan, and I don't have much Dejan stuff in my books,

but I do have a lot of Ripple right now, and I have a lot of Sol. Oh, Ripple's moving again. Ripple's moving again today, right? You had that kind of first two-hour bump, but now we're starting to see some follow-through. I agree with you, though. It was like five hours of massive alt season

and then kind of nothing. Yeah, yeah. I think it's temporary i think uh i may be entirely wrong of course but i think that ripple can can still i i i think it will uh go to um say 120 140 once it gets there i'm gonna turn the page, basically. I'm not a Ripple holder. Yeah, I mean, pretty much that. So, Alex, are you trading the momentum trade? Are you just trading the retail coming back trade? Is that your trade here? I'm trading the SEC narrative, Ripple winning against the SEC. The SEC is going

to appeal. There's going to be bad news. It's going to push price back down again, but the way I understand this, the way I see it, that's not happening for quite a few months. The appeal is not happening right away, so Ripple has to

run, but it's... I heard six Mouth even more so, so we have room to run. It's basically, let's put it this way, Ripple got completely destroyed by

regulators for years. Other alts has been Six Mouth. Ripple has been years. Other alts has been six months. Ripple has been years. A coin that's been that humbled by the market doesn't adjust to its fair value, whatever that may be, in a couple hours. So I think it should be higher. So Alex,

let's talk about the market. So like, if I look at the NASDAQ, 5% from its all-time high, S&P 5% from its all-time high. A lot of people are saying that it's seven stocks that are driving up

the NASDAQ and the S&P, which is Microsoft, Nvidia, Meta. There's four others that fell. The AI stocks, Tesla and a couple of others. So question, what is this cycle? Is this cycle those seven stocks pushing up everything to all-time highs? Or is this cycle those seven stocks leading and then the other stocks falling. And the reason why I ask that is because if the latter is the case,

then there could still be a massive bull run ahead of us. If it's just the seven stocks and those seven stocks are going up and everyone's thinking that, you know, then if those seven stocks come down, then we could get quite a big, quite a nasty correction. So very interesting. Yeah, that's a very interesting point, topic on basically the breadth of the move on equities. And that's worth an entire show or article about it because there's a lot of data and

the data points in both directions. So whoever is using that to say that that's a sign of weakness, that the market has gone down, hasn't done the research. Because you can have plenty of data to justify the exact opposite view. It's really a matter of bias of whoever is presenting and talking. What's your view? What's your thesis? Is your, like, what's your thesis? Is your thesis that we could go into full bull and that all the other stocks are going to follow?

Like, I look at it almost like a Bitcoin and then altcoins. Like, I look at those top stocks as, I look at those like big stocks as the Bitcoin of the market. And then I look at all the smaller stocks as the altcoins. And I think like, you know,

the market's going to get confidence in those stocks, and then potentially the rest of the stocks could actually follow. And if it happens, we could get way past the old all-time high, given that the old all-time high is only 5% away. That's my thesis. My thesis is what's happening now eventually spills over the rest of the stock market. Wow, okay. I'm glad to hear you say that because you're actually a little bit more conservative than I am

usually. He's bullish. We've been chatting. But I do want to stress something to the very beginning to what I said before is the easy money. The market already moved a lot. So for example, I'm fully deployed right now on both crypto and stocks, but in crypto I'm a little bit leveraged in fact, and then in stocks I'm fully deployed. But I wouldn't be deploying here. I would be waiting for a correction that will come at some point in the next few months. It always happens. I don't know exactly what that's going to be. But if I'm in cash right now, I'm literally waiting for the dip. Yeah.

I'm not chasing. Hey, Rand, I want to get Ryan, Horse. Dude, I still think of you as Cantor and Clark. I can't help it. It just mucks me up. But, Horse, what, I still think of you as Cantor and Clark. I can't help it. It just mucks me up. But Horse, what do you think about what Alex said? Where do you think we're at in this cycle? And then after that, first of all, I want to make it clear to the guests, you guys can jump in whenever you want. We're not necessarily going to go around the table and call on you. And we are going to get deeper into the crypto specifics, but I think just kind of the broad

strokes to start. Go man yeah what's going on man it's a pleasure to be here um yeah just i mean i echo alex's then i think a lot of this trade was etf trade um you know there's no like fat pitches uh in the near term i think broader market cycle everything's really lining up uh it's just a matter of, I've said this many times, like big shift turning slowly with the crypto market. So I think we're setting up for a really good 2024. As far as Ripple, I'm personally in the camp that it doesn't really move much higher. I could see it. There's this phenomenon known as the money roll. And a lot of the time that's when you're closer to sort of like a dollar or 10 cents, a hundred dollars. But it also happens around 80, whether it's 8 cents, whether it's 80

cents, whether it's $80, where you see sort of a slingshot from where Ripple is now from 80 cents to the point around a dollar. So I could see maybe possibly a little bit of overthrow there. I mean, there's someone that's aggressively TWOPing right now and it doesn't appear to be on the short side. So higher prices, I wouldn't see it much for like 110. I'll tell you what I'm seeing. Let me just get in here real quick, Rand, because I just want to run off. As far as alts go, I think that we remain consistent with what's been in the past like there's a couple darlings of the cycle but i think that the xrp

ruling doesn't benefit xrp as much as it does benefit new projects that i guess feel a little bit more um a greater set of security of coming to market now. But I think that alts that were popular last cycle are not going to be the ones to capture a bunch of mindshare moving forward. And honestly, on the subject of mindshare and alts that I am most interested in, they're the ones that have the most negative mindshare. So specifically, someone mentioned Rollbit, and then you have the exchange by Kyle and Sue. These two coins take up a ton of mindshare, but they're absolutely hated. And if you just look at Rollbit's numbers, I know a lot of it's based on notional values. And when you deal with an exchange, it offers that much leverage, like notional misleading.

But I think that they're just absolutely proving that they're under-owned because there's a ton of people talking about them and the market gaps are very low still. And the people talking about them are just absolutely hating on them. So I think this market is going to pivot and we'll see more growth in those two pairs. And then as far as breadth with regard to legacy markets, I mean, like Alex said, you can interpret it according to your bias. I mean, their market cap is as it sees. NVIDIA benefited around AI. I think AI is going to be a bubble that just blows away the crypto bubble

just because we're not even at the stage where there's any IPOs or anything that's coming to market. It's pretty much the proxy trade around it. The AI movement has been NVIDIA and has been Microsoft and already stocks that have been major events in market now for some time. So yeah, I mean, honestly, I think much of the move for crypto is in the rear view at this point. I wouldn't want to get overweight where we are now. As far as stocks continue to

move up though, you have to consider that portfolio managers can't really, they can't be out of the market and have the stocks move up another 10%. I think at this point, there's a lot of career risk to not be exposed. So you could contain a CDS and be, march on through all time highs, NASDAQ the same, to NASDAQ rebalancing happening. But yeah, I mean, I said a lot, so I'll- Rand, you told me that about,

you said that exact thing about Flex to me in February, by the way. We were sitting in Dubai and I was like too over-emotional about the three AC guys. I i was like no fucking way i'm investing a single penny in these guys which by the way maybe i still stand by but you told me it was gonna absolutely moon for all those reasons yeah i mean i i you know i i i said i wasn't gonna win a popularity contest um and they are you know they are quite hated those guys but i mean you know there's a lot of movement in the token again i don't claim victory yet because i think the move

a short-term moves is not what we're judging we're going to judge much later and you know whether the exchange actually gets traction but i i certainly think that there's a whole lot of narratives that are running uh flood capital i see you've got your hand up um i know you've got some interest in roll but as well. You've been following Rollbit, if I'm not mistaken. I think it was you that wrote some research on that? Yeah. Yeah, so I can go into that eye level if you want to pin it.

Well, yeah, I think a lot of people that are listening have no idea what Rollbit is. We've obviously used it quite a bit, but maybe just start off by just explaining to people what Rollbit actually is and what all this noise is. And I did throw it up top. Yeah, if you do need to refer to it, it's up there for people in the nest.

Oh, sweet. Great, thank you. Yeah, so basically Rollbit is an online casino that kind of uses crypto as payment rails so it's casino has a sports book and it also has what i'm kind of most interested in a thousand x leverage trading on like bitcoin that you can go up to like 500x on like xrp and kind of like a bunch of other pairs so it's pretty it's pretty degenerate in terms of uh that but the product is extremely smooth like you know right if you've tried it out you know i would probably go to say like one of my areas of

research is kind of derivatives and like defy derivatives i think it's like one of the smoothest products in crypto uh like kind of hands down and it's kind of simplest to use obviously extremely risky trading on that sort of leverage but uh it is kind of a casino so you get that casino feel while also being able to like access a lot of leverage which can give you some asymmetry if you're able to uh to get the trade right but i'm kind of most interested in it from like an investment point of view so obviously the product's great i've tried it out i i think it works really well but but from an investment point of view, like these guys are generating kind of insane amount of revenue, uh, and kind of in the thread above how I estimate revenue is anywhere between 10 to 30%

of deposits and kind of so far in the past six months, like since January 1st, um, if you use that between like, let's say 20% of deposits, it would be $150 million in revenue. And kind of since deposits are accelerating with all these new crypto Twitter accounts starting to promote them and their futures volume kind of blowing up, I think

they could be on track to do something like $400 million by the end of the year, which is pretty insane. And i kind of break down like why that is feasible right yeah we have a lot of times where we see these uh platforms and like the platform can do particularly well but the token doesn't does any i have no nothing very little about roll but does any of that value actually accrue to the token? Because like I said, I mean, literally Ripple could be a great company and XRP could be zero, right?

Yeah, exactly. Scott, you should know better than to say bad things about Ripple, the company and Ripple and XRP, the token. You should know way better than that. Whatever, man. You're going to get sold in 2023. I'm free of my bombs. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, so for for instance right so the comparison i make on this first chart here and the thread is versus uniswap right and as we all know uniswap you know takes fees but none of that actually goes back to the token holder and like the 4.4 billion dollar market gap the uniswap has is kind of based on the hope that eventually they're going to turn on the fee switch and send it back to holders. So that's one pointed layout. And the second point is, yes, Rollbit token does have utility. So it gets right now 20% of the casino profits, not revenue, but profits. But that's only the casino that doesn't include the sports book or the futures platform. And kind of Lockheed, the co-founder of Rollbit, has been writing a lot of threads. They've gotten more active.

They've kind of recently revamped the platform, moving liquidity from Solana to Ethereum, like signed some big people like Haseka and like Alex Weiss, Sisyphus, that JimBot account, like all in kind of the past couple weeks and then they've started to get more active on twitter like making a bit more of a push uh around the token and basically they're just kind of going to set this up it seems like uh like an exchange token so you know maybe in the future they're going to have some sort of buy and burn with with more utility like you know the plans are kind of unclear, but so far what we've seen is like over the past couple of weeks,

it's just like continued added utility in like small increments and kind of them saying there's more to come. So I think that it's definitely, you know, on its way and it's kind of in everyone's best interest. I mean, net, net. I mean, I think a lot of our viewers are very basic viewers and I appreciate the research that you've done. I read it, obviously. I think that

what Rollbid does is... Look, and to be honest, I've got a very small position that I invested in Rollbid, full disclosure, and I invested in an open market a few days ago. What Rollbid is, is it's a casino and a futures exchange if I were to really summarize it. Now, I mean, you got to understand, to me, much I don't really

agree with casinos and whatever else. I do agree that casinos are going to be an ultimate big use case for crypto. And I think that RollBit's capitalizing on that plus the other casino, which is a derivatives platform. Yeah, I mean, I think they're making, they're certainly making all the right noise. Again, not telling anyone to buy it, but it is definitely one to keep on your radar because it does appeal to a huge market. I think they regulate,

are they regulating in, they're regulating in a certain jurisdiction. Sure, it's a jurisdiction where they regulate them. It's something like that. Yeah. Yeah, I did do some research, and they were regulated as a casino, or they had a casino license in one of the jurisdictions.

Certainly not for the United States. Sounds... Yeah. Altcoin Sherpa, I see you've had your hand up. Hey, guys. Yeah, thanks for the invite on this call. Yeah, I just wanted to echo kind of what you guys were all talking about in terms of, you know, which altcoins to really target and which altcoins are really going to take up a lot of the mindshare. I totally agree with you guys in terms of Rollbit being a cash cow. Full disclosure too, I also bought a position on

the open market. I think that in the short term, it's going to be a pretty solid one. Again, don't buy it, do your own research, et cetera. But I think that for people really talking about all season and which altcoins are really going to move and what kind of environments are good for a quote unquote alt season. You know, in my opinion, like liquidity has really been fragmented since 2021, where we've seen certain narratives pop off. I don't think we've really truly seen like a full traditional alt season since like early 2021 in January, where everything was just like simultaneously going up 20 or 30% a day. Like Clark said, there's only going to be like a certain outperformers. And also Ran, you talked about this as well, where certain altcoins are going to highly outperform the market. And it's really important to decide

and look to see which ones those are. I don't really truly think that there's going to be like a strong alt season until we see like a catalyst and a true leader. It could be roll bit. I don't know.

I guess we'll see in the next coming weeks. But if you've looked at any of the previous quote unquote like alt runs that we had over the last few months, there's always been like a strong, strong leader. So, you know, back in February, we saw like a strong AI run led by Fetch AI. You know, later on in the year, we saw like a strong meme coin run led by Pepe. And, you know, as of right now, we're still kind of looking, I think, for like a strong leader and a strong meme coin run led by pepe and you know as of right now we're still kind of

looking i think for like a strong leader and a strong catalyst and um you know once we see like that leader take take a hold it could be as i said it could be roll bit it could be unibot it could be any sort of other layer twos with um eip 48844 coming out. I think once you see the leader, then we can kind of decide and see what the narrative is. Two quick points. So interestingly, a lot of the past few cycles you just talked about, obviously Fetch.ai, but that AI cycle was triggered by ChatGPT, something outside of crypto. And the metaverse fall that we had, whenever that was, was triggered by Facebook rebranding to meta, sort of these external things and not the internal narratives like it used to be. So I guess that's one point. But the next question, I see Patrick and Horace,

you got your hands up. So next. But talking about these very thin narratives that drive alt seasons within a very minimal sector, will we ever see those 2017 Bitcoin goes up, it consolidates, which by the way, it just did, and we haven't seen it. But Bitcoin goes up and consolidates and every altcoin goes up 50%, right? Or something goes up 5X, you rotate into literally something that hasn't moved, it goes up 5X, the good old days. Are those cycles dead? I want to know people's opinions on that. Go ahead, Patrick, then Horst. All right. So yeah, I want to know people's opinions on that. Go ahead, Patrick Denhorst. All right. So, yeah, I said a couple of thoughts on casinos real quick before all season. I really think that not necessarily just roll bit, but gambling and casinos overall has a potential to be the killer use case of crypto in the midterm beyond cross-border payments um i agree with you patrick i agree with you 100 i i cannot stress how much i agree with you uh scott i think this

came from a discussion that you and i had where you said you know humans love casinos and crypto by nature is just a transfer of value for one place to another it's the ultimate asset for casinos. And when I say casino, I don't mean casinos like gambling on Relit, but casinos as in derivatives. To me, derivatives are one big casino. Crypto is one big casino. I think that's the ultimate use case. It's the ultimate use case for crypto.

Anyway, carry on, Patrick. Thank you. Yeah. If you wanted to design an industry that would be more perfectly set up to use crypto, it would be casinos and gambling because it requires financial rails and often struggles to get access to them. Depending on the jurisdiction, not everyone can even access casinos in person or online. And also, crypto allows anyone to create new, never seen games right so you don't just necessarily have the standard types of bets or um or casino games just like with defy you could have anyone whipping up some some new website and you can't really do that easily on traditional rails because you'd get you'd get cut off and then also you have the ability to add token incentives so you could

have a site come up and often incentives to people who play, and I think that that opens up the possibility for a DeFi summer-esque type event at some point in GambleFi, where you could have these fork casinos opening up, offering token incentives and people moving between them

simply because they were going to be allotted governance tokens like they were in DeFi. Horsh, go ahead. Yeah, I think... Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, just really quickly, I think this is why Rollbit has gotten the traction it has.

Even today, over $4 billion in future volumes just because it mixes the casino aspect with the killer use case of crypto so far, which has been, you know, like perps. So it mixes that with the 1000x leverage. And so it kind of appeals to basically everyone who wants to like straight up the gambling in the casino or, you know, actually speculating on Bitcoin and ETH. And it also opens up like with the casino, you know, the odds are against you you like you're for sure gonna like lose over time but at least with like bitcoin and eats like if you get the direction right you could actually become you know pretty profitable over time obviously it's difficult

on high leverage yeah i think 200x leverage uh direction uh you probably have less odds than putting on a crap stable it's like at the point i think hold on i think i think we should draw a distinction between games of luck and games that actually require luck. When I think about a roulette, when I think about blackjack, the odds are against you eventually definitely, it's just a matter of time. But if I look at like, leverage trading, I don't see that in the same bucket. I agree that they're both extremely risky, but to me, leverage trading is,

you know, if you've got a thesis that Bitcoin's going to be higher tomorrow than it is today, and it's more of an investment instrument, and you want to go and take your bet on leverage as opposed to taking it on spot, I'd draw a massive line between that and playing on a roulette.

And the same thing with sports betting. If you've gone and done your research, I don't know anything about sports betting, but if you've gone and done your research and you know which team is better and which team favors the wind and which team favors the rain and you somehow can increase your chances of betting, that to me is more of a game of skill than a game of

luck or a game of chance. I don't know. I draw a big distinction between the two. Yeah, if I could just add, one, you made a point about, I guess, just previous market cycles and flows from BTC to alt. I think those prior markets played out, they were just sort of obviously very connected

to the way markets were structured back then. You didn't have as many stable coins. It was like, do you want to be in btc or do you want to jump ship and and chase you know the next area of momentum and there's no other market that's really like this it's not like you know if you're trading commodities and you're you know long crude oil uh then you have to get out of crude oil otherwise you're going to take positions margin doing crude oil and you're kind of trying to play this game of just like leapfrogging from one lily pad to the next so i think now that there's stable coins um it's a lot different and and those days are it's just kind of

different moving forward and not necessarily um not necessarily worse i mean markets aren't really changing much over time market structure has but people's inclination to just like chase momentum is always going to be there um as far as rule bit the one thing that i'm i guess concerned with because i think it's a great trade but i do think that it does have shelf life um because it is it is a casino and it's it is sort of labeling its products or the instruments future futures they're they're essentially binary options. They're negatively convex. I mean, I've used the product myself. They actually, I was at talks with them previously and I turned down an offer.

But I think there's a really important distinction to make. It's sort of like, in terms of it being negatively convex. If you're trading B2C, if you're trading B2C futures that were leveraged, that were margined in BTC, so the BTC margin products, that's negatively convex. The way that your P&O profile changes over time, you're going to lose more to the downside

than you gain to the upside. And the way that Rolbix products are, they're set up that way. So it is sort of like a binary option. It's not a futures product. And the one thing that I think is on the table is the existential risk of some kind of regulatory crackdown because we are, it feels like we're kind of getting out of that, but we still are in that environment where I think that it's just dangerous to play sort of fast and loose as a growing entity in this market because you do have sort of possibility of DOJ or some regulator stepping in and saying, like, no, no, this is not- Yeah, to your point.

And the bigger you get, the more attention you get, the more risk there is in that arena. It's actually advantageous to be small and not be growing and not get attention if you want to fly under the regulatory radar. Yeah, and I definitely agree with the regulation being a big question mark. I think you can apply that to a lot of the derivatives protocols. And then a point on the negative convexity,

I actually think it's a pretty good fee structure because basically how it works, if you go 1,000x leverage long on rollback, they effectively effectively give you anywhere between 700 to 900x on the long side and 1000x on the short side so you're going to get liquidated faster than that you would make like equal amount of money on the long side but they do that by waiving the flat fee so you can actually enter and exit the trade for you know no slippage and no flat fee. So I think it's actually really attractive for some traders who would prefer to be in and out of trades on no

flat fee. And then you can also switch to the flat fee model if you prefer the traditional perps. Yeah, I completely agree. It's a phenomenal product, product honestly for someone who's like a tick scalper essentially sorry my mic wouldn't someone with your hand up hey guys yeah going back to what you asked earlier Scott you mentioned

the days of this like 5x goes up and then oh find the thing that hasn't rallied yet and then just buy that and it'll go up you know are those days in the past and i i would say no first off that's really a good strategy i mean that rotation strategy actually had this conversation with some of the other day and he said well why do you even trade bro like why not buy things you know it's so easy to catch 100x which i kind of laughed at it's it's really not and to catch 100x you've got a hold of 50x and then you're waiting on a 2x like it doesn't make sense that rotation game mathematically um is it incredibly powerful the compounding and all that so like the idea of like are we out of this market where we can and we can see rallies across the board i don't think so because they're driven by human nature and the casino is open

as we've been talking about the casino being the markets the stock markets the biggest casino in the world the crypto markets 24 7 365 but one thing that i'm being paying close attention to as we get into this next cycle whatever that's's going to look like, is trying to find, and this is a little bit personal for me too, because I've had three babies since the last one. So I've got three young kids at home and I can't afford to play the move fast and rotate every day. I'm not paying as close attention. So I've got to be really careful with what I look at and finding those new narratives. The one that I'm most interested in is, you mentioned earlier, is value accrual. There's a lot of talk about RLB, RealBit. And then the question is like, well, how much of that token

accrues value from these revenue numbers they're putting up? And that's a really good question to ask through this cycle, because there is so much fit in the market as we all know and a lot of it is great ideas using a token to get funding and build their ideas but how much of that drives revenue and how much of that revenue sees its you know value go back to the token so looking at projects that are solving problems and then driving revenue and fees and then obviously rewarding holders and this is a point brought up uh by noah seedman captain rational guy who's on our stream last week and he he mentioned this idea of like i don't want to hold a token that's primary purpose is someone to buy it with hopes to sell it

later at a higher price that's where you don't have money here yeah you know that's where you all need a lot of money by i am crypto nobody really gives a shit about exactly no yeah i think and that i didn't saying so that's where i see this pivot as we go forward and as the market matures i mean we've got presidents talking about bitcoin backing the dollar say like presidential candidates like we're moving into a more longer term adoption cycle as I see it. And I think the old hat of buy-sell, buy-sell, look, I love that game. It got me to where I am today.

But now moving forward, I'm really looking for things where it's like, what if there's a token that I can buy and I don't have to sell it to make the money? The token pays me. Pays out staking rewards, real value accruals. So that's really something that I've been focused on in the last few months. You know, plant a seed, maybe number go up, sell half on a double, get a free position, and then stake it, lock it, whatever that is. So that's really just been my focus going forward this year.

I think we're going to see a move away from the shit, just like we did the utility tokens 2017 ICOs, right? Like, they're literally old. Yeah. And so we are moving towards a more value accrual token model and um that's really exciting because the idea of not having to sell your token to realize the gain is is a paradigm i'm here for yeah i think that's uh yeah so basically i think

the market is moving towards that long term obviously but i think it's like highly dependent on where we are in the cycle right so like for instance last cycle like you could have bought dogecoin and outperformed btc and eat by a crazy amount uh in like 2020 2021 then when 2022 rolled around right like we saw the best performing coins in the top 100 were gmx and gns which you know derivatives platforms that give value accrual directly back to the token, like as soon as like the froth came out of the market, that's when value accrual started to matter. Right. And I think some people are like still in that mindset because we haven't gotten like super crazy yet. And obviously, in the future, that's eventually where the market's

probably going to settle. But I still think the narrative stuff is extremely powerful right now. And then obviously, if you can nail both the narrative and value control, which is like kind of what we were talking about with Rollbit before. Right now, Rollbit sends like 20% of its casino profits back to the token. And like, hopefully they're going to be sending, you know, like their futures profits and sportsbooks profits back as well. But I feel like that's kind of the golden area is where you find the narrative and the hype kind of line up with actually some some

fundamental value and then kind of what we saw in 2021 was you had these kind of reflexive cycles of that where like luna right like luna had a massive buy and burn but that was kind of driven by like the token price and anchor. So those earnings weren't necessarily like real or durable over like a long period of time. But kind of the hype fed into the quote unquote fundamentals. Then that's when something goes really bananas. Yeah, I really like that you brought up the DMX. It's actually only 38 and a half, 39 off its all-time highs and so that's a really

good example of how the underlying fees and then the value accrual to the token the stakers glp true state gmx like it's a perfect example of that where through a nasty bear market and we just saw one of the nastiest coming off the highs um you know it's still down less off of its highs than a lot of others i think that's a subtle hint at exactly kind of what i was talking about with the value cruel tokens if you can hold something and get paid you're less likely to sell it off and you get less intense volatility which look some people are here for that intense volatility i love that shit but as i said as i get older and as i settle into this stuff a little more, I'm looking for things that solve real problems, collect fees for doing so, provide services, and then roll that back to token holders.

And I'm going to make a shameless plug here for Hero Network because I've been doing content for them for years. pair of mutuals, you know, Moonrec, very much gamified short-term binary options type thing, and really moved into a unified liquidity network, similar in some ways to GMX. And so really taking that fragmented liquidity problem we're seeing on chain derivatives and solving it by creating a unified liquidity layer. So like full disclosure, I have a big bag of that. I've been buying it throughout the bear market, but that's the kind of model that I think is really going to take off here in the next little while and GMX obviously being the leader there.

And there's a ton of that kind of stuff popping up. PICA and Optimism, like there's a lot. So it's going to be interesting to see who you know, I'm glad we're having discussions like this in terms of like value accrual to token holders. I think that's a very important discussion to be having. I mean, a lot of people buy tokens where they don't really understand the value accrual to token holders.

I've been guilt-treated many, many times. One of those where I did, and again, I'm not talking badly about it because I think it's a great article, but I bought Immutable X, the token, and I didn't realize that the token only gets 20% of the value that's accrued and the other 80% goes to centralized company. Now, that to me is not the reason why I entered tokens

and I want to be part of a decentralized network and I want the full transparency or whatever else. But it's good that we're having these value-accrued tokens and I think the other good discussion that's good for us is that we actually want to agree that the biggest use cases, or what I've heard, is that the main use cases are speculation and the innate human

nature to get dopamine rushes and play in the casino, because we're all speaking about exchanges, casinos, and speculation. And I know Scott has very strong thoughts when it comes to this. Yeah, well, I only came up with those thoughts after about seven drinks sitting with you at dinner.

But yes, I generally is referring to the fact that I've been to the epiphany that 99% of this is largely trash and that it's only good for trading, which is generally my funny. I had that same number at 99%. So really thinking high time frame, I just see a pivot with, you know,

when you get data points like GMX coming down off its highs, way less than that kind of understanding in the market. And I think we see a flight over time in long term. There's going to be some real stinky shit coins and meme coins that outperform in the meantime. But long term, I see us moving towards more of this value accrual model and then there's some other fun narratives to real world assets because the question is like what is the staying it's going to move past you know buy low sell high speculative stuff eventually it will settle into a space where it's providing real value and services to the world. And I think the ones that send as much value back to token holders are going to be the

ones. Right. But we're talking about tokenizing. There's kind of the core of what I was discussing with 99% is that the technology can do very well. A lot of these companies can do very well, but most of them didn't need a token to do that. And that's, I guess, where sort of, I think people are going to have to innovate and really, really add major value to the token holders. Because tokenizing real-world assets, that's incredible. I think it's an amazing case for blockchain, but how do you invest in that? Right? Exactly. Yeah. Well, you buy the chain that you think is going to be the most reached, and you

hope that you get some kind of value of coin. And then all the infrastructure. Yeah. Does anybody else get the feeling that somebody needs Bitcoin to be over $30,000? Because it feels like every time Bitcoin breaks down below this $30,000 mark, some art finds its way back up to just above $30,000.

Does anyone get the feeling that maybe someone needs to have the price there? Sorry, I just want to say something quick before I need to jump onto what you guys were talking about before and Rollbid and GMX. Something for the audience to consider, I think is very important, is these very illiquid coins. So you want to look at basically distribution of holders and then check what

happens if holder number seven, for example, sells 1% of the supply. How much liquidity is there to absorb that. Maybe that's just one guy is big enough to make price dump 40%, something like that. So I think this is very important things to consider that it's not just about cash flows. Also need to think when you have very concentrated holdings that just one guy waking up on the wrong foot can send your investment down the drain very fast. Just that. Guys, thank you very much for having me. I need to jump. Thanks, Alex. Yeah, if I could make a... Oh, sorry. Yeah, one thing I was going to say is we're talking about, I guess, projects that should accrue value reasonably based on not just being like meme coins and the fast-moving garbage.

One of the things that this market, one of the features of this market that makes it great but also sort of detracts from that is the fact that there's really no friction to come to market. So if you have, you know, two projects buying the market and one is trying to actually build something meaty and another is just trying to create pump economics to set it to, you know, infinity,

the thought that's going to captivate people the most is going to be the one that, you know, gets everyone's attention by, you know, just moving up vertically. And, you know And without stock market, there is friction coming to market. So there's a process for that. We don't have that here. So I mean, this market, I think, will always sort of punish the legit projects, the things that should reasonably accrue value, because there's just so many other things that can come into

market and can gain mindshare in a very short amount of time by just being somewhat flat. Yeah, meat and coins. I mean, we wouldn't have these massive meat and coin moves if people in this market care about value accrual to tokens. Right. At the very basic level. Patrick, go ahead. Yeah, one thing I just wanted to add about the value accrual discussion is I'm all for tokens having a reason to exist. And I think long term, there has to be some sort of value passed along. But I can't think of another industry that expects what's essentially a the project might be better served by the team having that money to be able to continue to build. I mean, just to give GMX as an example, big fan of the GMX team. I've referred tons of people to GMX.

And I don't know right now, but I've held GMX for most of this year. But if I'm holding it long term, I'd almost rather than getting whatever the 10 or 15% payout, I'd rather that money go back to the team so they can add more pairs and grow the protocol. Yeah, that's actually happening in V2. So the split right now of revenues is 70% to liquidity providers, 30% of the token, and then it's going to go down to 10% to the team, 27% to the token, 63% to liquidity providers in the future but exactly but to my point you know what other industry is a startup expected to pay out 20 30 of its revenue to as a dividend yeah for

sure but like gmx you know for a while only had two developers and they made a protocol that was spitting out like hundreds of millions a year in fees like i think the leverage that code and crypto gives you um you know it kind of allows you to do that but and i think that during the bear market that's what the market was really focused on like cash flows right now and that's why gmx performs so well during the bear market but definitely agree like over a long time horizon like you want to make sure the team has money it's a well-funded and has money to grow but i don't think that's really a restriction for gmx at this point we're really strong treasury and war chest but i agree with like your your general point it's a valid point you want to have balance in how the the the revenues or or value accrual goes out to the token you got to

have a strong treasury you want to see growth there. And in many cases, the teams also have team tokens and they're welcome to stake and opt-in do. And that's somewhat how they get paid too. But yeah, driving a lot of value to treasury is going to give you the staying power that all the token holders should want. So that's a really good point. I mean, we keep talking about whether we're going to see these cycles and what's going to happen, but I think currently we know that there's just no liquidity and very little volume right it'd be hard to expect to get these massive moves if there's no new money coming in you know coins on exchanges or historical lows volumes are low but i guess the next question is maybe vinnie you could take this what's going to drive new money to come in so there's actually enough liquidity to see these massive moves?

Yeah, it's a good question. I've been asking myself the same question. I think, as we've seen over the past decade, a lot of the liquidity is driven by the Fed. So the Fed's pulling liquidity out of the market. It affects all assets. The everything bubble has come down. And, yeah, if we look at the stocks, it's mainly led by the top 10 stocks as well and that's because people are chasing cash flows and and yields um you know so i'm not sure where the new money comes from right now i think the there probably has to be something in the traditional financial system that breaks that puts pushes people into crypto uh or rates

have to start coming down and excess liquidity flooding the market. But most of the new money, so to speak, is either coming from... It's not new money. It's like this recycled... Right. Some people make gains. The old Washington shit. Exactly. Exactly.

So you see people make gains and send coins, then they go and buy Bitcoin with it or they go buy Ethereum or whatever it is. And that's what's happening all the time. Even the meme coins. Guys go and make a million bucks of meme coins, they're going to Bitcoin with it or they go buy Ethereum or whatever it is and that's what's happening all the time even the meme coins guys go and make a million bucks on meme coins they're going to go pop it into Bitcoin so that's why the dominance has been rising steadily over the past year and a bit and Ryan and I famously had one of his crypto

magic sessions where he was emphatic that it would not go over 50% and I think it was like 38% at the time and I was saying Ryan it's going to go over 50% in this bear market cycle and Yeah. Interestingly, though, people talk about this meme coin cycle. And I heard a lot of people trying to compare Pepe to Doge. But Doge brought literally millions of people into crypto who had no interest in it before, obviously, because of the long must. But I mean, I remember talking to exchanges or saying, listen, we're getting 100, 200,

300,000 extra people signing up a day. We can't hire enough customer service people strictly because of Doge. This is not the same what we're seeing these times. This is just the washing machine. Bunch of degens who are already in crypto or buying Pepe, looking to dump, we get into something else. I mean, Doge, for as much as people seem to hate it, it probably brought more people into Bitcoin and crypto than anything else we've seen. Yeah and a point on that and I can send you this chart but basically I've been monitoring like kind of stable coin market cap. So like USDC, USD and Tether and then I guess like the true USD and basically that's down from it got up to 150 billion or so

uh kind of april 2022 and it's kind of been just kind of slowly bleeding down all the way to kind of 115 billion so that's like 45 billion dollars in stablecoin liquidity that's kind of exited the system and obviously like a big reason for that could be like the T-bill yields being like 5%. It's like, you know, if you can, why wouldn't you off board and get 5%? But it's just kind of another indication to your point. I think most people that are, you know, heavily trust stable coins

are probably not the same investors as T-bills, although I do agree with you. I think that largely Silicon Valley Bank and right right you know when uh people for a weekend thought that the usdc might be at risk in the very fact that people are afraid of regulation and non-stop but to me that would sort of answer to the decrease in uh stable coin market gap maybe i was wrong but it feels like there's certainly a lot less people right now that trust having their money in the industry for various reasons. Yeah, no, for sure. I just think that that was one of the massive drivers of the bull market last year.

Like in September 2020, stablecoin market cap went from $20 billion all the way up to $150 billion, which is just like kind of new money to bid Bitcoin, to bid these, to bid alts. Go ahead, Vinny. Money coming into some new alts. Can you hear me? Hello? Yeah, you're good now. Yep, you're good. Okay.

There is new money coming. Yeah, we hear you. We hear you. Okay. There is new money coming into There's new money coming into crypto. It's coming into crypto via Bitcoin primarily. So people are buying

Bitcoin on a global basis. And so that's the funnel for him you know the other law are buying bitcoin quite in quite a big way globally yeah so that literally that's exactly how the old cycles that we're talking about happen right i mean a bunch of people got into bitcoin everyone says all coins are dead bitcoin's gonna take the entire hard cap and then people get fucking bored and they start speculating and

trying to beat Bitcoin and there we are. And that would indicate that we're going to get back to the same cycles once enough liquidity has come into Bitcoin. Yep. Yeah. And to that point, Coinshares publishes a really good weekly asset flow

into kind of the trad byproducts. So like into like GBTC, different ETFs. But what I thought is interesting is a lot of the flows, like there's been 750 million flows over the past four weeks, kind of off the back of this ETF news. But a lot of those are going into kind of like the ProShares ETF, which is like cme kind of like paper bitcoin it's not like actual um you know bitcoin like entering the or like in the system that could kind of rotate into alt so a lot of that money is going into kind of like cme futures rather than like on-chain bitcoin which could like hypotheticallyetically get rotated into alts. I think the point about stablecoins really is the biggest point, though, for trying to differentiate

between now and past cycles. And I think, of course, I think you mentioned this earlier, but if you wanted in and out of alts in 2017, you had to go through Bitcoin. You literally didn't have another choice. There was no stablecoins. I mean, there were nothing.

There was really no USD pairs. So that kind of created that cycle. We don't have that anymore. If you can go straight from all coins to USDT or USD and skip Bitcoin altogether, right? CRG and Echos, you guys haven't jumped in at all. What are you guys thinking about this conversation in general? CRG, why don't you jump in if you're there?

Yeah, I'm here. Cheers, cheers scott and hello gents hope you're all well um regardless you were cruel um thoughts i think real world assets are probably the only thing that can really kick start well the interest rates are just too high for a full-blown bull market in altcoins but where real world assets where crypto projects can weaponize volume through real world assets and bring them on chain and bring some non-inflationary yield i think that's probably where um altcoins are going to flourish because like we saw with Luna, inflationary yield, it's just not going to work long term. For example, I'm working with a project at the moment that's bringing debt on chain,

bringing trade receivables on chain. And they're doing that and they'll create some yield for the project. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Go ahead, Nate. Yeah, agreed on that. I'm not sure whether you guys can hear me, but I agreed on that. There's a couple of projects coming around the cycle that are definitely different than the previous cycles out there.

I think when it came to real world assets that never really existed in the previous cycles in 2017, 2018, even 2020 really. So there's a couple out there right now. There's one called PropChain that's looking to bring real world assets backed by real estate. That's in Dubai. They already have working property out there and it's sort of going to be leaning towards real estate and renting as it continuously progresses. It's doing really well well and then another one is going to be debt-based assets so sovereign debt bonds and so forth that's going to be tokenized and i think that's like the next big pivot for the cycle coming up and that could be something that more institutional level players would be more interested in versus your typical meme corner whatnot.

Because as you guys were all saying, big money is not really interested in getting into Pepe. They're more interested in an actual fact-based asset. I mean, I think obviously talking about Bitcoin ETF now, but if you read the investor letter, their annual investor letter in March, largely about tokenizing real world assets. So I mean, BlackRock is talking about that. It's definitely going to be one of the next narratives. Patrick, I would give you the chance to comment. I want to ask a general question to everyone after that. Go ahead. I agree. It'll be a quick comment. I just wanted to add a number to context to what they were saying. Since the start of the year, the value of assets that are tokenized as real

world assets on-chain has grown from around $120 million to almost $700 million. Actually, almost $900 million. Almost $900 million. So it's gone 7, 8x since the start of the year. What is the

composition of those assets? When you're saying take a real-world asset and bring it onto the chain, just walk me through what a real-world asset on chain actually looks like. So a lot of those are, for example, in ONDO finance, which are tokenized US treasuries. You have tangible, which would be tokenized real estate.

And then it's a selection of a lot of assets like that. So I hear you, and I'm trying a collection of a lot of assets like that. So I hear you, and I'm trying to understand the use case for it. If I've got a tokenized treasury on chain, I mean, what do I have? I have a token that represents a real-world asset, but when token transfers, what is to say that the real-world asset also transfers? Do you understand the question yeah yeah i understand the question and i mean i think that's that's getting into legal aspects of it that that are probably beyond um beyond uh me yeah because i i really i i buy

the list this assets training chain thesis but what I don't buy is a token that represents your ownership in an asset. But if a token changes hands, the thing, the, the, like when people talk about real estate changing hands, as far as I know, and I may be wrong, but you can have a token that represents real estate. Ultimately, unless the title deed changes hands,

the title deed, I deed, your token is... Grant, I can tell you really quickly how that's working. It's actually pretty novel. Roofstock, I think, is a company I interviewed at a meeting last year. And so what they do actually to do it in the United States in a compliant way is that they open a Wyoming LLC. The Wyoming LLC owns the property, and the tokenized NFT version of the property is actually

a transferred ownership of the LLC or control of the LLC. So you get the asset owned by the LLC. Very novel and complex, but that's how it's done here because Wyoming has a favorable regulatory environment that allows that, basically LLC central. So you're not actually buying the asset, you're buying control of the LLC that owns the asset. But yes, that gets very, very complex if we're going down this rabbit hole. Yeah. See you at GS, see you at Amazon.

Hi mate, yeah, sorry about my phone going a bit... Yeah, I think instead of kind of, when you've got real estate and tokenizing assets it's not really um there's obviously longevity in it but short term i think it's about weaponizing volume um that can reoccur over time for example um, there's projects I know that are delivering short-term debt funding to the crypto space and bringing it on chain, which means every 60 days or every 30 days or every 90 days, debt is funneled into the crypto space. It's pinged around an ecosystem and it's then um and then value accrual is given

to the token holders via um yeah i think we lost you there for a second i'm not sure if you hear us but uh yeah so i and uh while you get that sorted out, I'm going to go ahead and mute your mic, CRD. Here's my next general question that I wanted to ask before Patrick went. So I guarantee every single person on stage here gets the question often, what will be the best performing asset of the next cycle? Assuming we see one of these cycles. I kind of flippantly at this point joke that whatever it is, I probably haven't even heard of it yet because I don't really want to necessarily own a bunch of stuff from 2017 in the next cycle because of bag holders and such. Do you guys think that we can see the older coins massively out to form or do you think that it will always be whatever that next new

narrative is that we're chasing that's going to perform in each bull market go ahead barbs yeah so my i mean someone asked this question recently in a loop and so i think i mean i uh i'd miss to say that if that i think it's probably going to be roll bit um roll bit would be up there as long as it's not like just absolutely taken out by regulators uh roll little bit i think pepe is probably um a darling and fan favorite and then honestly to echo my earlier point this the next cycle is going to be populated by coins that we haven't even heard yet that's like my strongest opinion and i think the area that we see really well is our projects that sort of pivot and attach themselves to to ai because like i said you know ai i think ai honestly is just people are sleeping on it um because we have incumbents like

nvidia that are gaining all the traction around it but there's nothing that's ipo'd yet there's nothing i mean we've we've been able to try the actual tools and things have come of it, whether it's ChatGPT or some of the like fun or art related programs. But that's non-serious. I mean, that's trivial compared to what I think probably comes over the next few years. And we haven't even seen the market reflect that with any new projects or companies. So cryptos themselves, AI, I think will probably outperform because I mean, honestly, stock market beta has been outperforming BTC and outperforming each. So any crypto related stocks have been outperforming crypto incumbents or crypto native pairs. So I'm most focused honestly on how projects attach themselves to AI

because I think that's the most compelling narrative. And we've seen that behavior in every single cycle, right? I mean, it's like the Long Island blockchain iced tea, but Albinon. But we obviously saw every project all of a sudden became a DeFi project for six months and then they all became, had some NFT platform or something.

And so, but AI probably has a lot more staying power than any of those, to your point. Go ahead, Sherpa. Do you think that AI and crypto actually mix? I've heard conflicting reports as to whether AI and crypto actually mix. Andre Crenier famously wrote a blog about it. I've always thought that AI and crypto

really mix very well, but I'm keen to hear everybody else's views. Is it a real thing or is it just a... Let's discuss that for a second. I think AI is a very, very big space. The service area for AI is massive. You've got to hone in on what are the core components that crypto could help with.

And what we're seeing is things like Rendo, for example. They're a massive GPU network. And the one thing I can tell you about everything I've looked at in AI is we're running out of GPUs. We just don't have enough capacity. In my company, for example, I'm running right now, Waitroom, we use AI to process video conferencing calls and create summaries, et cetera.

If Zoom tried to do this using the current world infrastructure of GPUs, there just isn't enough. The amount of minutes being spoken every single day on video conferencing is hundreds of millions, probably, and there isn't enough

GPU capacity for it. So what do you do? You're going to need some sort of infrastructure that can be powered by crypto where people can connect GPUs to the network and allow their GPUs to be used. There's a lot of idle GPUs out there. Gamers use their GPUs maybe two hours a day with these big 4090s, RTX 4090s, et cetera.

And so this is where I think crypto can help is really on the infrastructure side and resource sharing, like an Airbnb of GPUs. There's a couple of companies doing it. REN is one of them. I think that's a really interesting space. Now, it's not crypto and AI being merged together, obviously, but it's resource provisioning. And I think that's important.

And I think there are other areas where we can apply the crypto mindset to the AI ecosystem, but I think they are somewhat detached. Sherpa, go ahead. Yeah, what about rewarding users for their data in AI models? Because obviously AI models rely on user data. And right now, as the user, we are the product. We're not getting any of the value. But the ability to reward users for being the data in the models. So here's the interesting dirty secret of this.

I spent, as you know, a lot of time on data privacy at Civic and trying to create a better identity infrastructure. The problem is that the economics just don't add up. Individually, our data isn't worth much. I mean, you can take your data and obviously, like, you know, maybe ultra net high net worth people, etc. Very small percentage of the population, their data is worth a lot.

The majority of the population and data isn't worth that much. This is why, like, no one solved this problem of giving you money for your data. What's your data worth? 10, 20 bucks a year? That's it. In aggregate, it's worth a lot. And you have to aggregate that data because you're then looking for trends, et cetera.

But you just can't monetize it. So this has been a problem for, like, I haven't seen anyone figure out the economic model of redistributing value to people who do it all for their data because the economics of it just don't add up. It's just too small on an individual basis. And Facebook knows this. Google knows this. They all know this.

And they can't make it work because it just doesn't work. The economics on that are... Sure, but jump in. Yeah, fair point. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Thanks for that. Yeah, I just wanted to go back to the previous questions on what will be the next altcoin in the

next cycle. I'll just piggyback on whatever what else said. I don't think we honestly truly know what will be the next darling, so to speak. I think that people generally like to just go to the hot new thing, hot new tech. There's going to be new market needs. I don't know what they're going to be. Maybe they're going to be tokenized real world assets, maybe some metaverse stuff, maybe more gambling. There's going to be more narratives that crypto fills throughout the next cycle. Last cycle, obviously in 2021, we saw more layer ones happen. We saw more metaverse happen. We saw those types of gaming types of narratives come up. So I'm not sure what's going to happen in this next cycle. I think that there's going to be some pretty, not sure bets, but some events that are high probability, meaning I think meme coins will eventually do pretty well.

Doge is going to have its run. I don't know what it's going to look like or doge or shiba um and like clark said maybe like pepe will like do pretty well too disclaimer i still have a pepe bag um i still think that it's uh you know eventually going to move i don't know what it's going to look like or when um but as far as like actually seeing which types of coins are going to be there i think that we just don't know at this point um and like i'd rather just wait until a leader emerges and then just hop on the train at that point instead of just trying to like spray and pray like obviously if you're in venture then you just take that approach but um like on liquid trading market it's a little bit different

in my opinion so i'd rather just like go and wait for the leader to actually start like moving hard and then just hop on the train at that point and then um kind of see what happens at that at that stage instead of trying to just guess yeah i think the narratives that i'm pretty excited about um the clear so obviously like the casino stuff and the trading stuff we've talked about a lot about but also and you know gaming big last cycle, but we didn't really see any games that were like actually kind of like AAA or fun to play. So I think that that's going to be like a sleeping giant. There's like a lot of projects that have been kind of raising over the past couple of years with like big budgets that can bring like high quality games to crypto. And I think like crypto and gaming make a lot of sense. Like, you know, digital ownership,

I'm pretty sure like CSGO skins, hair strike, massive kind of game and big e-sports scene, but they've done like $32 billion in volume on the CSGO skins, which is just like kind of aesthetic based over the past like four years since 2019 so i think that's going to be a huge market in the future once good games come out that are actually fun to play and then kind of like tokenizing or making items within the games

nfts i think that makes a lot of sense so i would probably say like the casino slash training and then also gaming which is kind of you know it's hard to see like what to invest in right now on a liquid standpoint but i think in the next year or so some some clear winners or you know potential winners will kind of come out in in that space what do we make of the fact that a lot of the dinosaur defy coins have been moving obviously i mean it was kind of a short-term narrative, but comps still continue to go up. Ave, I mean, do you think that we can see rotation back to any of these sort of classic, it's funny to call them classic after a couple of years,

but these classic popular sort of protocols and coins? Nick, what do you think? I think so. I mean, I think that like Ave, for for sure there's always a use case behind there right lending is always going to be popular thing especially with money coming in and and coins sort of moving um i think that before like in terms of multiples right i think that you will see some definite players like for example like solana like some of these layer ones have done really well in the past i had these huge um ecosystem like fun still as well as these huge um uh userships you will still see

them like probably do really well coming into the next cycle now in terms of like i mean we briefly touched base on this i believe sharp i was the one who brought this up but my overall use case for crypto that i think that can be drastically improved is overall ui ux in the space and that's where like i'm extremely bullish on unibot i think that we've briefly touched down on unibot and i think that that is going to be the big mover coming up it's no i mean it's not like really a uh surprise everybody uses telegram here in the space you know for you to be able to manage your own tokens as well as trade on it through both like leverage as well as options as well as d5 easily from their phone is going to be like the big mover and um yeah i think that that's really just

that's actually i did a whole show today about these trading bots and how much i love this narrative it's it's repeating the altcoin altcoin meme cycle, meme coin cycle, but actually I really think that the use case of these bots is unbelievable. To trade, to farm, to farm for airdrops using a bot on your Telegram, I think that is unbelievable. I think we've just seen the beginning of it. I try not to show my own show here on the spaces

but i think if you go watch my show it was just an introduction to the bots and we're actually building a full spreadsheet of these trading bots what they do um what uh you know which ones are the good ones which ones are the bad ones but for me that's a massive massive narrative with a big use case it's it's effectively probably also going to be the crossover between AI and crypto, where these bots are going to be AI-powered bots that effectively just invest on your behalf or farm

on your behalf. There's some of these bots that are doing airdrop farming, and they're pretty much better at airdrop farming than any of us will ever be. You just plug your water into these bots and you let the bots just do its thing, and they airdrop farm for any of us will ever be. And you just plug your water into these bots and you let the bots just do its thing and they airdrop farm for you. I think it's a massive, massive, massive,

very strong narrative. Was anybody here using them heavily? Really glad. I mean, I tried Maestro for whatever for a brief time and just kind of forgot about it. But if anybody's using them, RT can make a point for it. I haven't used them yet. I was going to gonna say i'm really glad you brought up the bots um i've been sitting here thinking

about you know the idea of waiting until seeing what next cycle looks like before we necessarily take predictive bets and and that's not a bad strategy that's more of a momentum trade and then you know you miss some of the start of the move but you you know you jump on board when you kind of know it's moving um but going back to what i said earlier i'm really looking at the obviously value accrual i just beat that horse dead today but um thinking about the use case of crypto we talked a lot about it today there's pretty solid consensus on like thus far it is trading and speculating gambling for lack of a better word and so i'm looking at projects that are building the infrastructure to do that and solving the problems that we're dealing with right now whether that's high fees on ethereum

through last cycle it was near impossible to move around with less than you know really a hundred thousand dollar position um you know you don't want to close a four thousand dollar position on a five hundred dollar fee so things like solana avax some of the other l1s some of the l2s right they're they're working on solving that problem um but as you brought up the bots it just made me think of yolo nolo another one of those uh discord bots you know they're going to have perps and all that um personally not my cup of tea right trading through a text interface but if there's a market for it that's gonna be an area where we see growth like you said trading on your phone through telegram managing your assets buy sell

whatever um and so going back to hero network which i think the market just waking up to right now as we're starting to see some movement there after the solana rally this year um but it's really this perfect storm of the fact that hero 1.0 was this web 2 you know single dap kind of thing or app really like a web 2 style um but with these unified liquidity pools there's going to be a number of. There's about 12. Did I cut out? I went mobile. I don't know if you can still hear me. No, you're good. We can hear you.

Okay. Well, just pointing out that if you have a unified liquidity pool like they've built there, many dApps plug into the same liquidity. And so you've got YOLO NOLO Bot bot which is being compared to Unibot right now um plugging into that then you've got a new one they just uh into that Pepperdex that just launched their discord there's apparently more than one rollbit-esque type platform being built in their pair mutual protocol so all plugging into the same liquidity and as we know

liquidity is reflexive so liquidity begets more liquidity. So that's obviously and again I'm obviously biased I work and do the content with them but having taken a really close look at it that remains my pick for the type of thing I want to be looking at which is

infrastructural plays that solve the problems of the real use cases of crypto right now which really are just trading gambling all the rest and i i for one hope we evolve past that long term but as of right now that's objectively what we're looking at that's the use case so i want to buy that infrastructure yeah another piece on the infrastructure side i think like you know Bridges had a pretty good run last year. But, you know, on the infrastructure side, I think like, you know, betting on, you know, Ethereum, just core infrastructure, like fueling all this stuff. I like some of the Bridge coins that are going to help, you know, connect the block space between everything. And, you know, as more retail users come on on they kind of get priced out of ethereum so

kind of like the l2 is a new structure plays a new l2 i'm kind of looking at which was previously a bridge is synapse and they're going to be launching their l2 and their l2 relatively soon and that's going to be like an evm optimistic roll up that kind of connects data across all the evm chains and would essentially allow you to build like an exchange on chain to like natively trade uh kind of in one place you know assets across kind of any any EVM chain on one place like infrastructure it's kind of another area um obviously that's been around for a while but like kind of another area that you can kind of count on to probably be a big performer especially as we onboard more people and more users people get priced out of the ethereum and what else are your thoughts on the on the bots my only concern with the bots it makes a lot of

sense but it seems like it's very insular like telegram bot is still very much built solely for the crypto community and not for any sort of mainstream adoption yeah but i mean i mean everybody's sniping if you have everybody eating a bot to snipe the same launches doesn't it become ineffective i know i mean then it becomes yeah and then it becomes just like pvp right um it really just comes down to who knows what who knows the contract addresses early then of right? It really just comes down to who knows what, who knows the contract addresses early. Then at the day, right, it just comes down to basic trading where it's a zero sum game.

I think that's where you would have your edge. But at the same time, there's certain bots out there, for example, Unibot. I don't want to keep showing this because I do own a bag, but it is relatively large market cap at this point that gives token holders a portion

of the revenue. So you could simply just buy it and hold without even staking and still earn pretty decently off of it, just off of that yield alone. Yeah, also, let's not make the assumption that any crypto people use Telegram, and let's not make the assumption that these bots will only operate off Telegram. I mean, there's already Discord bots which are operating. There are no WhatsApp bots because WhatsApp doesn't have an API or doesn't have a usable API.

So I think that for as long as you're using WhatsApp, that's not going to work. But I think that bots are going to be the future. We're seeing it in our industry in that it's becoming going to work. But, you know, I think that bots are going to be the future. We're seeing it in our industry and it's becoming a trading bot. But I think, you know, with AI, bots are going to be

the future of, you know, how we handle customer service conversations, how we even handle our own conversations and stuff like that. So I think,

yeah, so I think that, you know, look at Unibot now. And again, I'm a very, very small bag holder. If Unibot and all the markets have no special favors or anything like that, you know, look at Unibot now. And again, I'm a very, very small bag holder. If Unibot were on the markets,

no special favors or anything like that, I don't have any interest to show it. But the reason why I bought it is because, A, it's starting to get very widely used. But I also believe that if these people develop this bot, then they're going to keep up with the times and maybe we'll get email bots, and maybe we'll get a Discord bot,

and maybe we'll get all of them other bots. So this is just the entry. And I think that bots right now are going to be a big topic. And I think that I did my whole show. Again, I try not to show my show on time at all, but I did my whole show today on these trading bots. Because I just think that the community needs to start finding out about them pretty early. And understanding the value accrual gets and the fees and what these bots actually do.

So I don't think it's going to be the next narrative as big as Layer 1's, but it's certainly nice to see a narrative which is, in my mind, it's a clean narrative. It's not like meme coins where, you know, they prided themselves on having no utility. These bots have actually got good utility. The more money the bot makes, the better the bot is,

the more money it makes, the higher the token value goes because effectively, in most of the models, the token holders are getting a percentage of the fees generated by the bot. So it's a clean narrative. It's not a narrative which is filled with hot air. And it's based on a real-world use case case you know what i'm saying you're a hot air hey guys real fast i don't i don't want to show a specific project but i want to just show you guys sort of screenshots um of what these bots can do right if you actually look at the pin post right now and i'll unpin it because i don't want

to show the bag but um you guys can actually see just how dynamic these bots are and exactly what they're doing, right? So both of these projects are farming bots. So essentially, they put all the labor, the hard work that it takes to qualify for airdrops, and it does it automatically for you. Simply just throw in Ethereum into a wallet, distributes out, and it runs the tasks for you. These tasks would take you hours every single day. They're very tedious and these bots are automated. So they're pretty dynamic and they're pretty self-explanatory. And by holding the tokens, you get a cut of each airdrop as well. So as you guys were saying,

I think that the use case around these bots is very powerful, and you will continuously see that going forward. I'm glad we're having this discussion. I mean, it's so timely that I did my show on it today, and we're having this discussion. Patrick, I see you got your hand up. Yeah, thank you, Ren. I think one thing that's so powerful about these bots

that you kind of hinted at a second ago is that because they're a platform, you can ultimately hook up all sorts of other narratives and technologies to them. So what I'm watching for is I'm expecting this bot narrative to start to merge with the AI narrative, as you're already seeing some of them are incorporating AI more into their product offerings,

and then also to merge with the gambling casino narrative as you see bots that help people with, for example, sports betting. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's why I sound very, very, very bullish on this narrative. I discovered the narrative a few days ago and been looking at it since. I think it's a very, very, very strong narrative which actually has substance as opposed to a lot of the crypto narratives which I say

don't really have substance. Scott, I mean, if there's not much else happening, if anybody has any closing thoughts, we'd love to hear them. Also, just a reminder that from next week, we're going to be broadcasting from the Crypto Town Hall account, which is

the little red microphone. I think it's a speaker or a listener. Little red microphone. Yeah, Crypto underscore Town Hall. We're going to be broadcasting using that handle, I think starting sometime next week. So if you guys don't miss the broadcast, maybe just subscribe to that account, just join that account.

Otherwise, if anybody's got some closing thoughts, let's close it out for today. Not me. RT, I'll W you. Let him close. Let everybody close at once. Go. I'll jump in. I think the ETF is probably going to be the biggest source of new

cash, fresh money into the ecosystem because these ETFs, they're going to have to hold spot at least at some level. It's going to have pressure or upward pressure on Bitcoin's spot for sure.

I don't think there's enough in the derivatives market otherwise. So that is my take. I think that's the catalyst we should be hoping for. Yeah, but I guess the first ETF approval is at least six months away, right? Best case. I mean, I can't see the SEC.

I don't know what I did. But I think that's optimistic. We will start to get answers in August. That's all. We will actually start to get them for us to make some sort of decisions as soon as August. Yeah, I mean, I think James on my show, James from Bloomberg,

and he said December was the soonest, if anything. Well, the longer it takes, the closer we get to happen. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah, I think the... I'm going to hop off,

but I think the first time around is probably they're going to kick the can down the road. But more importantly, make sure it is really meaningful for the market. I mean, it doesn't guarantee instant demand. It's not like BlackRock's going to go out there and just start scooping up a bunch of BTC. But it is great for allocators, more traditional types that were skeptical of crypto because there's a significant stigma involved to start passively indexing. And I think that's one of the types of flows that this market is really missing,

that kind of passive indexing. You know, really, I mean, they'll rebalance, but as soon as they're adding BTC to their basket products, it's not like they're going to have zero allocation moving forward. So I think it just adds. Don't forget the impact of like 401ks now being used.

Sovereign wealth funds, 401 wealth funds and it's more about the dollar cost averaging part of the equation like every month money's gonna start going in from all these accounts and not adding it to the portfolio so it has some a massive upper push on uh on Bitcoin so yeah guys really quickly I mean I'm just seeing this we're about to dig into it maybe we'll dig into it tomorrow but a new new U.S. Senate bill was proposed today that wants to regulate DeFi-like banks. And the bill, check out the name. The bipartisan bill,

the Crypto Asset National Security Enhancement Act of 2023 would require DeFi protocols to impose bank-like controls of their user base according to a description of the bill reviewed by Coindex. My God, good luck. Yeah, we'll do that tomorrow. And I've been trying to do that today, but that sounds like when the US Senate was talking about

DeFi and saying we've made it, at least to some degree. Alright, man. Let's wrap it up. I'll see you guys all tomorrow, same time, same place. Much love, guys. See you guys.