The Wolf Of All Streets - Beginning Of Bull Market? | GameFi w/ Animoca Team | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

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Hey everyone, we'll kick this off shortly, just waiting for the panel to come up. I see a bunch of speakers already up. I want to do a quick market update. I know the goal was to focus on GameFi today, but I want to get some of the analysts to come up. We've got a pretty sick panel when it comes to gaming. I want to go through the market. I know we covered it yesterday.

There hasn't been much happening today, but I know we closed a massive green monthly candle. Since we've got a few speakers from the gaming ecosystem, from Web3 Gaming, it'd be good to get an update when it comes to alts in general with a focus on gaming. An update on VC funding as well. We've got Mohamed, we've got Tyler from Animoca. We'll see if Ran can jump in as well today. Scott could jump in. As of next week, he's back to normal. Ran today, I don't know if I'm allowed to say why he's not on here. It's up to him dig into web3 gaming and to get a bit of a market update i know you've been very active in our

spaces for the last 48 hours but i'm going through the agenda today it's been a pretty quiet day i just looked at the market before the space but there's a few metrics i think the etf inflows have been doing really well i'm not sure what they are today and we're not going to talk too much etfs but let me see the numbers today if I've got them. Hold on. Since I've got no one here for the ETF, I'm going to do it myself. All right. So ETF inflows today are, okay, pretty, they're very low today. Hold on. Total net inflows into Bitcoin is only less than a hundred million. So hundreds of millions over the last few days, which is okay. It's quieting down. And then net day net outflow. Okay. I think there is a typo here from the team. Because they're saying there's a single day net outflow from grayscale of 600 million

and net inflows of 92 million. I think they flipped them. The grayscale outflow would be 92 million and net inflows would be 600 million. That would make more sense. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Because BlackRock ETFs at 603 million inflows okay so the numbers are uh seem to be messed up i'm gonna try to get the real number the the proper numbers here

uh numbers are wrong 4.2 um but if we look at the entire week uh fix asap i'm gonna get the numbers from the team but if we look at the entire week the I'm going to get the numbers from the team. But if we look at the entire week, the ETF inflows have been doing incredibly well. And I've got the numbers for the last few days with me. And we open up on the agenda. So today is the 1st of March, yesterday, the 29th. ETF inflows, we talked about it yesterday, but total Bitcoin ETF trading volume hit a record. I think it was just two days ago, a record of $7.5 billion two days ago,

which is two and a half times the previous record. Could kind of explain why the markets are pumping. And then we've got record-breaking volumes. I think the volume two days ago was bigger than the first volume, the first day of launch, on the day of launch of the ETFs. We broke that record, not by much, but we broke the record of the ETFs launch, which is just crazy to think of. Net outflows at Grayscale have been dropping as well.

And the markets have been responding accordingly. And I talked about it yesterday. We've got the biggest candle when it comes to biggest monthly candle in dollar terms. I think it's at 20K for this month. Last one, last biggest one was in 2021. I think the last three were in 2021. 17.5, 13.5, and 12. This one is 20K.

So in percentage terms, it's obviously not the biggest, but in dollar terms, it's by far the biggest. And then we've got the – another thing. Okay, cool. We talked about it yesterday. I'm going to give the overview myself. We talked about yesterday and the day before about being in price discovery right now, and Dave was on stage explaining that for us. And I broke down the days, how many days we've spent and which price targets. Between the price of 66 to 68K, we've only spent two days in that range. If you look at the price range of 64 to 66K,

seven days, 62 to 64, 10 days. So 10 days so anything above 60 000 we've spent less than two months in that range and dave you know explained it two days ago in the space how we're already a price discovery and that's why we're seeing that level of volatility and the question that i had for dave's um i had it known for ralph paul yesterday maybe dave could could explain it a bit further is that dave what i asked asked Raoul yesterday is why are we seeing this level of volatility with ETFs in the markets and institutions in the markets, considering retails either just getting into the markets with Coinbase being down and KuCoin and other exchanges or not even entering the market yet? Yet we're already seeing crazy volatility. If you look at the price action two days that you covered it with us live. Well, I mean, the answer is pretty simple, actually. A couple of days ago, when the inflows started coming in really big, the price started moving up. And as I mean, Scott likes to say, humans will be human. And what ends up happening in crypto is people will start piling

in the leverage. And for those who don't really understand happening in crypto is people will start piling in the leverage. And for those who don't really understand what's happening is people will take 10, 20, you know, 20 to one or more leverage on these positions on the theory that, okay, it's a fixed supply. These guys are going to send it to the moon. Well, the reality is financial advisors or the financial advisors themselves will set limits. And so there's only so much on any individual day that they'll chase the price. But the DGents in crypto a couple of days ago basically said, ah, OK, so let's push the damn price up. And the easiest way to understand it is it's like Wile E. Coyote chasing the roadrunner, you know,

and all of a sudden he looks down and they're off the cliff and then poof, look out below. And so now there's this air pocket that they pushed the price up and it was only speculators and they have no one to sell it to. And all of a sudden, someone comes in and says, okay, great. They bombed the price down. They sell some. And now all these people start going into liquidation. And we saw something that we had never seen or not in a long time. There was $700 million, according to Coinglass, of liquidations a couple of days ago. It was almost 50-50 evenly split. That's amazing. And so that's what caused that volatility.

I think what's also amazing, and people need to understand this, is it happened in the context of month end. Once again, in crypto, no one cares. But in TradFi, people do care. And the result is the second to last day and last day of the month very, very often have more inflows. And the other thing that was talked is, so one thing, you just dropped out. You're back, Dave. I know you're on the move. Can you hear me? Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I can hear you. I'm going to tell you what. me drop back now you oh cool yeah let you drop off and come back yeah another thing that was uh probably asked

dave and ask uh others um that will be on stage or anyone that's on stage just you know following the markets beyond gaming and that's something that doosu was talking about from three hours capital so ryan interviewed him you should check out the episode i know he's someone that everyone loves to hate but there's a lot to learn from everyone. He talks about how the halving cycle is probably going to lose importance, especially if history doesn't repeat itself this time around.

We could see halving playing a smaller and smaller role when it comes to timing the cycles. But we'll talk about that in a bit. Something we've covered heavily this week in my other shows is gaming. And we've scheduled this that in a bit. Something we've covered heavily this week in my other shows is gaming and we've scheduled this show for a while now and Web3 Gaming with obviously Pixels and Portal launching in the last couple of weeks

is finally seeing the interest, in my opinion, that it deserves and Animoca is working on Mochaverse. Would you have Tyler and Mohamed from Animoca? Guys, can I give us an overview on the markets? I know Tyler's first time on stage. Mohamed, you talked about it yesterday. We'll go with you, Tyler, first.

Just give us an overview in general, the appetite when it comes to, investor appetite when it comes to Web3 gaming. Because Raoul did say something interesting yesterday. He said gaming will probably take longer to get traction just because games take longer to develop. But hasn't it been long enough? Like Web3 gaming was, you know, kind of carried the last rally, the last altcoin rally in the last bull market after the meta hype died down.

Tyler? Yeah. Yeah, Jim, Jim. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So maybe I can describe a little bit about what we see from Animoca lens, and then I can talk a little bit about from Mochaverse lens as well. Animoca has been investing in quite a bit of GameFi projects since a long time ago,

and well, a long time has been, I guess like two, three years ago as GameFi pickup. And actually starting from then, we see large gaming studios coming in, but it takes time to build, as you said, right? So I will say recently in this quarter, we see a lot of good game launches. Actually, those games have started building since one and a half to two years ago. And that's why you see that lag in terms of major game launches. And in terms of the deal flow that we see right now, actually, there are a lot of massive appetite in gaming,

not just from Animoca Brand's perspective in terms of that capital appetite, but the broader investment and VC appetite is really, really strong for gaming right now. And I will say, like, we'd love to see basically Pixos and Portal getting massive success on Binance, and it's really great for the whole industry. And we do believe basically what we see in the pipeline,

the token launches, is going to be a lot of them coming by the end of this quarter and as well as early Q2 as well. Yeah, and the question I have for you, Mohamed, is there were a lot of complexities in the last bull market. I think play to earn as a concept got a lot of criticism, including Axie, who we've had on stage a few days ago. And that's because the model was very flawed.

We've also seen a lot of resistance when it comes to Web2 games, integrating NFTs, integrating blockchain into their ecosystem. Now Portal, and I would love you to talk about Mockaverse as well, but something we talked about with Portal was that their strategy in onboarding Web2 games to Web3, and it's going to be a slow process where it's got to be seamless and players got to get the benefits of decentralization without knowing

that they're using NFTs or the technology behind NFTs. So Mohamed, we'd love to get your thoughts on how to bring Web2 to Web3 and the image, the reputation of Web3 games. And maybe tell us more what you're doing at Animoca from an investment perspective and in terms of Mochaverse,

who we could become investors in. Hey, Mario. Good to be on a space together again. There's so much to unpack there. I guess we'll start off with Axie. It's probably a good place to start and the rise of Play to Earn. And fundamentally, sometimes what we forget is when the play to earn narrative was penned there was never a play to

earn narrative before it was the first of its kind did anyone expect Axie to be as big as it got I don't think so and we forget Covid played a role with people not actually being able to work and having then shifting from you can argue slave labor work in southeast asia to playing games online being able to earn more that coupled in with the beginning of the ball cycle and the compounding effect we saw on price for axi and it blew up beyond anyone's expectations but what it really gave us was a blueprint as to the potential of gaming within web3 and fast forward and to tyler's, where we are today, a lot of these games have been developed. Sorry to interrupt you,

just before you fast forward. Just with Axie, can you give us an update? What happened with Axie? It was the sexiest token for months in the last bull market and obviously collapsed along with the rest of the market.

They've been developing, I remember getting some updates throughout the bear market. I think they launched a free-to-play game. I't been keeping track even though we've had alexander on stage the co-founder a few times can you give us just a latest update on axi what their focus is now so i'm a bit rusty myself on the latest tracks we're actually doing a research report on that so next week i'll have a bit more information, but fundamentally it's the mindset change. Or not the mindset change, there was a lot of learning.

We knew where this idea of a sustainable token economy within gaming wasn't an issue until it broke. And what we saw with essentially the pyramid or the Ponzi-nomics, which I think is quite unfair to call Axie, but with the copycats that came afterwards, but it's the learning. It's how can we look back and reflect?

And credit to the Axie team. They knew there were flaws, but we had to test the hypothesis. And as the hypothesis was tested, we saw the rise of Ronin Chain, for example. And then we saw the rise of, well, Ronin Chain works for Axie. We have the free-to-play, like you said.

What else can we be doing to grow the ecosystem? Because we know Axie is a special kind of game for Web3 gamers. It wasn't really on board the Web2 gamers for the fun aspect, but maybe for the earning aspect in lower-income populations where a few dollars a week is the difference between having a roof over your head or not so there's been a big shift in focus around that around the sustainability making sure that the access token slp token is more sustainable there's more sinks for that and we'll probably see a rise of axi again maybe not to the same heights as last time because we have much better

quality games that have been released but there there will be a comeback and we saw the launch of pixels on ronin as well and it was insane that the valuation of pixels was higher than the valuation of of ronin which in theory shouldn't happen you know that the valuation of pixels be ronin what what do you make of that so so pixels which were investors in i think animal's investors in as well, we did their launch space about a week or two ago. And big fan of the game, big fan of Luke and the rest of the team.

But their market cap right now is more than Ronan? It was at the highest point. I'm not sure. Yeah, it was at the highest point. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, we can, we can. Sorry, just a bit of a lag cool yeah it's all good all good and we're obviously now all good and um you know talking

about the ecosystem now so for people entering the market there's obviously people from the last bull market that are entering now um the answer for them for the question i'm about to ask will differ to the people that just entered the market now and weren't investors or weren't players of Play to Earn game or Web3 games in the last bull market. And of course, you've got the people that have nothing to do with crypto, maybe gamers that are not deep in the crypto space that are entering the market. So my next question, if you can tailor to those three categories, what to look for now in a game? And I'm probably going to sit there and listen as well. We're investors in many games. We had like three launched this week alone and so i'm probably going to learn a few things there but

what are some things you'd want you'd want um listeners or investors and this is not financial advice this is even for gamers to get involved in the ecosystem what would you look for and muhammad and tyler that question for you and then we'll go back today for a quick market update before going back to the panel so fundamentally for gaming it's the persona of a web 2 gamer is very different to the persona of a web 3 gamer so it's designing different loops or games what we call it meta games where the web 2 gamer will come in for the actual fun of the game for being part of the community within that game ecosystem for the clout um but then the web 3 gamer will come in and they're playing a very different game.

For them, it's all, or in most instances, it's about the ROI. It's about how can I buy an asset? And the value of the asset will increase over time, be it fungible or non-fungible. And be it if I'm actively working to increase the value of this asset or I'm just riding the wave,

the speculative nature of the space. So in general, you're building two different mechanics for two very different audiences. But then over time, both of these will come together. And that's when we start to see adoption, where Web2 gamers are just like, okay, I have this asset. Wait, this asset has value? I can trade this asset?

How do I do that? And what we'll see is a motivation to want to learn more about web3 as opposed to us being like nfts nfts in your face nfts you need to download the metamask this is all the friction points that you need to be able to get into the space we've come such a long way in the last two or threes in abstracting away the technology gamers don't care about technology most of us in in web2 do not care about the technology we care about the experience and the front end application so that really has to be the focus and then it's just it's a learning journey after that based on a motivation versus an incentivization if you like

for web 2 web 3 is quite the opposite yeah and tyler you just dropped out just sent you an invite dave i want to go back to you not sure if your connection is better now until Tyler's back up on stage. I was talking about the halving. I'm not sure if you heard what I said, Dave. But do you expect the cycle to repeat itself in terms of the post-halving bull market? And then the second one is comparing this bull market to previous bull markets. We asked that question a while earlier. Do you expect this to be a shorter bull market than the last one? And then I'll add one more question, Dave, so I'll give you the mic question a while earlier um do you expect this to be a shortable market

than the last one and then i'll add one more question dave so i'll give you the mic for a while is um what happens when when we see a massive correction what is if the 30 drawdown when it comes to bitcoin what happens with the etfs then could that outflow of etfs cascade this to a much bigger correction could we see that same fear when it comes to the ETFs, similar to how retail reacts to a dump? Or will it respond similar to gold ETFs, where just investors will just put in their money and forget it? Well, there's a combination of both. Well, let's start with the cycles. I want to be really clear here. One of the things I have, for those who don't know me, I spent basically more than a decade running quant trading teams between Citi

and Two Sigma. And when someone gives me three data points and tries to claim statistical significance, every fiber of my being says, what the F are you talking about? So the entire cycle, which is monetary policy, yes, it has had impact because it had impact. And maybe it's coincidence, maybe it's not. I don't think there's enough data to conclude anything about it other than the fact that when there's a supply shock, there's a need for it to price to continue to go higher for miners to be able to supply that network. And if you look at the size of the network, it's obvious that the impact of ordinals and layer twos and other things going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem are moving along with price because, as I pointed out many times,

people keep saying, well, we're close to the all-time high. And if you take the all-time high and divide it by the total hash rate in the network or any other network metrics, we're not even sniffing the all-time high yet. So, you know, it really depends on how you look at cycles. I personally think this cycle, to the extent there is one, because there's a political business cycle, etc., I think that there is a difference now. Basically, we unlock more than half of the world's investable assets and then provided the marketing departments of some of the biggest asset managers in the world at the same time to get toward Bitcoin. Why do I think that matters? It's a narrative shift. The whole point of Bitcoin is, will it gain adoption

as an inflation hedge towards being digital gold? And the answer right now, probabilistically, I think most people on this space are listening. I don't know how many people are listening. I'll bet you we're at 80% of the people think that we're more than three quarters likely for that to happen, that Bitcoin will eventually gain that acceptance. But the market is pricing it at 10%. And so that's really a large amount of the people who are buying in the ETFs right now. But the ETFs are also really good trading vehicles. They're way cheaper to trade than spot for U.S. investors, for U.S. retail investors. You're paying zero commission. It's a penny wide spread. And so, yes, that marginal buyer or seller, when there's a sell-off, will accelerate the price decline to an extent. So there's cross-currents. The short

answer is, until we see large-scale adoption by major programs, and you've had Matt and others on talking about this, and it is happening, yeah, there's certainly risk that if there was a major dump, it could accelerate. But having said that, look at the price action over the last few days. We had this massive run up from 57 to 64. It retraced literally 50%. And typically in Bitcoin, when that happens in a day, it's going to reverse and start trending lower. But it hasn't. It's actually covered some of that to sit in a fairly non-volatile range between around 61. And so there's clearly a bid here, and that bid is relevant. So if you ask me what do I think is going to happen in this cycle, I think that there's just limited supply, and I don't think

at the same time. The 70% to 80% of the holders are going to sell at these prices to that significant increase. And the halving itself, honestly, that's just the new supply. And if inflows are bigger than that, and that becomes much more likely, I do think that it will matter in the end. But it's not a straight line. And so you can't look at markets as a straight line. Because in this point in the cycle, we would expect several weeks of consolidation of Bitcoin while, in fact, maybe drifting downwards as money moved into alts. And we're not really seeing that. And so it's not the same as previous cycles, is really the point that I make. The other question I had, I'm not sure if Scott

can speak. I know you're in japan so it's very late for you but if you can speak let me know i'm just checking the group you're speaking there um but one interesting thing you mentioned dave is that generally when you have such a massive pump again i'm not a technical analyst i'm not even a trader um so it's an interesting point that you mentioned if bitcoin pumps the way it did yesterday, sorry, two days ago, and then there's a 50% drawdown afterwards, that usually signals a trend reversals, if you look at Bitcoin historically. And considering that that hasn't happened, if anything, Bitcoin's going to get caught up on some of that drop, indicates that the likelihood of a massive dump cascading into more dumps is lower than previously

than you have previously. I would say, well, yes, that your first point is exactly what I was trying to articulate, probably when my phone got, you know, someone called me. So you may have lost me. That was literally the point that I was making. It shows that there's still a bit and a substantial one. So, look, it doesn't, people need to understand that all investors are not willing to FOMO and chase price. They tend, the people who do that are the ones who go on leverage. That was a point I was making earlier. The leverage got extreme. And right now, we look at leverage, and I'll look at it right now. I'll go in here, here right now, leverage is still higher than it was before this rally started, but it's about 20 percent lower than it was two days ago.

Okay, so hold on. But Dave, the $600 million outflow from GBTC on the 29th yesterday, which is the second largest outflow since the 11th of March, since the ETFs launched. Sorry, 11th of Jan. Does that link to that massive pump and that volatility? No, you have to understand there's a few things going on here. First of all, we know that there's still some more GBTC held as collateral against debt. And that could have been, you know, a slug of that. Second, you have to understand what happens on the last day of

every month in US-based asset managers. If you're a U.S.-based asset manager and you're holding in your portfolio a position, you have to be able, ready to defend it. U.S. asset manager who potentially on behalf of tax-exempt funds, to the extent that there are any, holding GBTC, even if you're a crypto manager, people, the hedge funds are going to ask, why the hell are you doing this? And so they may have wanted, so there's people who would naturally want to sell that and rotate it into other assets that are more defendable. So there's those two things. So it's not terribly surprising that we saw that at the end of the month. And it's not terribly surprising that the market is much calmer today being the first of the month. But it's also a Friday. My personal

thing is my thesis is you'll see more positive Bitcoin stories over the weekend. And therefore, you have to remember the markets are closed on Saturday and Sunday. You'll have two days of demand going into Monday morning. And so if the markets stay around here and who the hell knows, that's a huge if. You would expect to see more big then. So it really is about your date dynamics. I know that it's – I'm having to remember the way it used to be for me because I've been in crypto for six years. But 35 years in TradFi, and I do remember this stuff. Yeah, so just on a positive note, despite the $600 million worth of outflows, there's still a net inflow of $92 million.

So the day is still closed in the green. And so far, total inflows since the ETF's launch is $7.5 billion, which obviously beats all expectations. And it's been, what, since 11th of January. And what are we now, 29th of Feb? And keep in mind, the consensus was $15 billion for an entire year. That was where the consensus seemed to have been. So, yeah. And we're already halfway there.

And it's been, what, a month and a half. So it's well beyond expectations. So it kind of goes back to the market reacting the way it did. And kind of my next question is, this is the first time that Bitcoin broke the four-year cycle, the resistance before the halving. Does that mean anything? Is that just the ETF inflows doing what to do? Well, is there more to it than that in terms of what happens next? There is more to it than that. I mean, look, you know, whether it's me or Mark Yusko or Michael Saylor or any one of a number of others, the narrative has changed.

And keep in mind what it is you're investing in. And this is, by the way, this pitch, because my brother's a financial advisor and I've had this conversation with him. The market at 60 some odd thousand is basically saying there's a 10 percent probability that Bitcoin, it's 10% of gold. And if you believe that as the world goes more and more digital, that, and by the way, when gold price goes up, lots more exploration happens and the gold inflation rate actually increases. That does not happen with Bitcoin. It doesn't matter what the Bitcoin price is. And someone said it this morning, people are not used to it. People who are speculating on gold when they think that monetary aggregates are going crazy and they want to hedge, they know that the gold price shot to $3,000, there'd be a ton of investment in mining. And the inflation rate in gold will go from 1.8% or give or thereabouts probably to 3% or 4%.

So that matters. And so I think the narrative has changed. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean anything for the rest of crypto, but I do think that that kind of asymmetric upside narrative is why people are buying. Now, why that matters, Mario, is if that's the dominant reason people are buying, those are longer-term kinds of bets, and people are going to ignore the squiggles. They're not leveraged, they're longer-term, and they're less likely to pile out in the downturn, unless there's a story such as U.S. government bans Bitcoin or something like that. Elizabeth Warren gets her way, that kind of crap. So it does matter. So it is different. Yeah, and Matthew Hyland did put out a tweet as well that we could also – there's just a lot of history being made. We could also close for the first time ever a seventh monthly green candle this is the first time ever we've

closed six consecutive uh green monthly candles the first one was november 2012 till april 2013 second one second one was october 2020 till march 2021 so it's the beginning of of uh so it didn't happen in okay it didn't happen uh in in the market. So it happened in 2012, happened in 2020, end of 2020, and it's happening today, which if I interpret it correctly, just indicates things are extremely bullish. And this could be, this is likely the beginning of a massive bull market. But if we hit a seventh monthly green candle, is there ever a level, Dave, where you're like, things are too frothy, even at this at this stage the beginning of a bull market even if we haven't broken all-time highs yet uh could we could you look at all these metrics and say all right and and obviously the the open interest and say all right things are too frothy it's no way it was very unlikely we're going to continue reaching all-time highs without some sort of correction well i mean a couple of a couple of facts i mean

james lavish i was looking for the tweet posted something about the S&P that this is literally the longest rally we've had without a more than 2% correction ever. And so we're kind of in a weird place. The other thing that he posts, which I love, is the expansion of the U.S. national debt and the debt of basically the G20 is the same. When you look at that as a backdrop, understand that people will say, well, Bitcoin is not a good hedge against that because it hasn't done it. Well, it hasn't done it because it hasn't been adopted yet. So, yeah, I mean, there's more likelihood, and this is dumb. I'm not going to defend this behavior, but this is something that market technicians will tell you is true. In traditional markets, the frothiness is generally measured in short-term periods.

So, 4%, 5%, 10%, 6% a day, 3% in a day, stringing 20 of those days in a row, that could happen. We saw that in 2000 in tech stocks. We saw that. The difference was that was based upon cash flows that never materialized. And so the skeptics would say, well, you know, this company could never grow into that. Look at what it would require. But in Bitcoin, virtually 80% of the holders, if not more, say, well, Bitcoin is going to grow into digital gold. So what are you talking about? It's gotten ahead of itself. So there's a difference in terms of the naysayers. The naysayers in Bitcoin all think it's worth nothing. And that's very different than when you look at frothiness in the way, you know, when any fundamental metric, and it does matter.

Well, we'll open up to the panel. We'll go to Ryan, then the rest of the panel. I'm seeing the comments asking about how to best get exposure to the gaming narrative and Web3 games. For example, there's a question here. Should you hold AVAX rather than hold game-specific tokens? Before going to the questions from the audience, and you can put them in the bottom right corner, Dave, the last question I had for you is the rotation. I know you've talked about this in previous spaces. I don't think we've talked about it on Crypto Town Hall. How long and how aggressive do you expect that rotation to be from Bitcoin to altcoins?

Or history may not repeat itself there. This is a Bitcoin-led rally. It's Bitcoin ETFs. There is no ETH ETF, spot ETF. So we may not see the same rotation we've previously seen. I think that the more Bitcoin does well, crypto assets with use cases that capture people's imaginations will do incredibly – will do better because it's new money for two reasons. First, crypto natives will have made money and can redeploy capital. And they – of course, the maxis will say, yeah, you should be stacking stats, yada, yada, yada. Others will say, well, you got to be opportunistic.

The truth is people get wealthy and they spend more. But I do think that there are two narratives and you harp on them all the time. One is AI and the other is gaming. Both are real. If it shows reality, money will follow. And the thing that it's doing is it's bringing more eyeballs to the space. Bitcoin will be a gateway drug. It was for me. It was for a lot of others. I personally think Bitcoin is singular when it comes to store of value. But I think that there

are many, many other use cases. And this panel is one of them. And you have lots of great panels to describe why. But now you have a lot more people who will be listening to this narrative. How do you stand on these two narratives? AI is obviously a lot newer and just gaining. It just makes me feel, as Suzu said, that it just makes me feel like it's a 2017-type rally, similar to the meta rally, where anything that has AI in it suddenly pumps.

And we're too early from use cases yet. We just started talking about it a few months ago. And Web3 gaming, which obviously we've been talking about it for a lot longer, but it's just had its ups and downs. So where do you stand on these two narratives? And then we'll go to the panel. You can be honest, David. My honest answer is, look, I've actually said it on the panel. I think the WorldCoin, for example, just because it's Altman's coin, that rally is absolutely insane.

And I think there are lots of insane rallies. That said, there is 100% a need for decentralized LLMs and validation, decentralized validation of LLMs. We've seen that. And there's never – look, what we saw with Gemini, it should be a massive point to builders. And I think there are probably a lot of builders out there, and some of them are going to come up with things that are going to be worth an enormous amount of money. But just like the Internet bubble, I'm not an expert, and I don't want to try to guess which ones are going to survive and which ones are the ones that are going to win. From the Internet bubble, when we looked at it, I mean, Amazon survived and thrived. A few other companies did well, but Google hadn't even IPO'd yet. It was still, you know, whatever.

And Facebook was still just a glint in, depending on who you listen to, someone's eyes in Harvard dorm rooms. So the truth is that there's a lot there. There might be projects that you've invested in that are going to be the ones. I just don't know. You know, in terms of gaming, look, gaming is all about ui ux and experience you know when that when that's solved there are a lot of people out there uh these are the the best biggest games are all um mmos are all multi multiplayers and therefore having a community is a big deal for a game and to the extent that you can make that model work it it will work eventually, but you got to get the technology has to catch up. And once again,

I am so not an expert in knowing which ones will be there. I would love your thoughts. I see your hand up and you can comment on the markets in general as well. And then obviously start honing in on gaming. You know, Dave raised some really good points. And I think that the cycle is very different. You have the Bitcoin ETFs, you have Bitcoin ordinals, you have fungible tokens, runes, and you even have L2s being built by these giants like Marathon. And this really suggests that outflows, especially to alts, will be very different this cycle. And I'm excited to see it. I've been a bitcoin miner since you know

2017 deployed about 32 megawatts of miners on the topic of of gaming and gaming tokens i i do believe specific crypto tokens are for those who are ready to do their research and find the true diamonds and that's where the biggest gains will be made but you have avax ronin imx and those these core coins the l1s are for safer exposure i would never sleep on the main hub like whether it's avax or solana with its high throughput which is perfect for games and you see huge huge titles like star atlas br1 aurora honeyland and then you have these other coins like bonk that are rolling out titles as well. It's exciting. I want to hear earlier, we'd love your thoughts on what's been discussed so far. And the previous question I had is what, actually, it's this particular point, how to get exposure to the gaming market.

How's Animoca? What's Animoca's strategy this time around? How does it differ from the last bull market yeah maybe i can jump in here sorry i was um drop it a little bit twitter just rocked me um but yeah so animoca has been investing in about 450 plus companies and more than half of them are actually gaming companies and we've been talking about investing in a lot of these companies but mochaverse is really the play to finally have a product layer to integrate and busy grow that network effect and being able to cross-pollinate cross-pollinate users utilities resources across the whole network with the public infrastructure that we're building here with accounts traction wallet with digital identity,

on-chain reputation system and on-chain point system, and surrounding basically is going, if you think about it, we're building an economy with multiple platforms and projects. And on top of hundreds of companies, Mochaverse is actually building that meta layer and that network layer. It's almost similar to building an L1 or L2 chain in a way without really becoming like a nation state, like these games need to launch on our chain and stuff like that.

But really, we're playing that chain and offstick role in the industry and to maximize that network effect and that focus on distribution and growth. And Mochaverse do not only focus on gaming, but we also have a massive network of Web2 consumer apps and consumer products, partnerships that will be onboarding tens or even hundreds of millions of users into Web3 through the digital identity and onboarding and cross-pollinating users. And speaking of that, it would be music products, could be sports products and so on, that can tap into a massive fan base. And gaming is a way to actually formulate that economy.

And I will say one game itself has its own economy, and Mocha versus Metal Gear is an economy of multiple economies and being able to share that network effect yeah is it would you say that mocha verse uh would finally allow one of the biggest use cases of web3 games and that's interoperability among different games would would you allow for that to finally happen and how long would that take i just want to maybe you can explain maybe you can explain to the audience what that interoperability looks like. Like when you own an asset in the physical world, you can move it from one country to

another. You can move your identity from one country to another. In Web3 games, you don't have that level of interoperability. It is very complex to achieve as well. Games are struggling to build their own token economies, let alone a token economy that integrates with another 10 other token economies. So maybe you could touch on that as well, Tyler.

Yeah. So a lot of the games actually experimented, not only games, but platforms also experimented with the gaming character being interoperable. But in my opinion, I think we are too early for that right now. I think the most interoperable layer right now is the base layer,

which is the user identity that can be interoperable layer right now is the base layer, which is the user identity that can be interoperable across multiple platforms. And that's regardless of chains as well. So if you look at our integration with Pixos, Pixos is on Ronin and we have other games that we have signed already that is on Immutable, Polygon, Arbitrum and so on, and Solana as well. So right now the users are being bounded actually by the chain and there's friction to move from chain to chain. But from a user perspective, that shouldn't be the case

because the user actually played a game, they do not play the chain, right? So really having that identity layer that is interoperable across multiple platforms, multiple games, and able to carry that reputation, that point system, and able to be token gated by multiple games

is going to be very powerful. And we are going to play the role on board the Web2 users through digital identity and going to cross-pollinate those across the whole network. To ask the same question to other panelists, and then we've got a lot of data from Vijay that we'll share later,

and Roger is deep in the Web2 gaming ecosystem. It'll get his thoughts on this but maters and jtv i'm going to ask you that same question for investors in the market not financial advice as always but if they're looking to get exposure to this narrative um what would you say is the best strategy the best strategy for web 2 individuals to get into web three okay so you can split it into three buckets you got obviously the crypto investors or gamers that want to get exposure well let's focus on investors here they want to get exposure to the narrative uh you've got web two investors or gamers that want to get exposure and then you've got your average joe that usually follows me comes into my spaces listening about the war here or silicon valley bank that's

interested in the ecosystem so you can maybe kind of touch on all three buckets okay yeah so for the way that products are generally come to the market is you have entrepreneurs obviously and then the investors come after that um then from there as investors come in and try to help um kind of build the build the product and then figure out a way that other users will even want to use it so the investors come first and then you're going to have that following of people that are more just trying to touch the water, basically, and curious gamers are just like, okay, what is this? Or maybe people have had a bad experience.

I'm a native RuneScape player. Played that for a long, long time. The asset ownership side makes a ton of sense to me, and I think it does a lot of people there. So exposure, I i mean for people looking at it they should do their research that's such an obvious answer but a lot of people don't and i actually go try the game i have people sorry i'll only do your research and then i'll go to to materso muhammad on that particular point after you're done but i'm doing your research and then i'll go to to matersa muhammad on that particular point after you're done but i'm doing your research what do you research like understanding a token economy

understanding value accrual across different digital assets i just don't see even experienced investors um even gamers to be able to determine how that value will accrue when us vcs struggle to kind of answer that question disagree between each other other. Yeah, I get that. That's for sure. I mean, when I look at these games, first off, I want to know what the game is like, which a lot of games aren't there, for one. But for those that are, go play it. See if it's fun. Is it intuitive? Is it basic enough that other people will even be interested in trying it? I wouldn't so much focus on, okay, I can play this right now and maybe make a couple hundred dollars, because that is going to go away very quickly as more people kind of do that. So riding the hype there is definitely not the route.

But I think experience the product more so than the tokenomics themselves. Although that's really important, because if they're bad, they'll run it straight into the ground, even if it is a good game. So the question I have for you, JTV, very briefly, and we'll go to Mohamed and Matus, any specific games with obviously relevant disclosures

that you'd recommend for people to look at, either gamers or investors? Again, not financial advice, it's your personal opinion, which games you like, which games you think are there. Because one of the biggest arguments against Web3 gaming is it's very far

from having that same level of gameplay as Web2 games. Right. So a game that we're working on is an MMO style just for lack of time inspired by RuneScape. And

I definitely would recommend trying it out and see what you think. It is live and available on a public alpha stage, which means we're just in testing periods. But I would say that, I mean, Shrapnel's been doing really good. I think that we can learn a lot from how they've been doing their gaming.

And I think that they've captured a lot of fun in it. I've watched friends of mine stream it, and they seem to genuinely be having a good time. And I think that that's a really, really positive outcome. I'm sorry for the background noise. Mohamed, same question for you. So JTV, other than the game you're building, which I think is called Exodus Goodbye World, which I'm not an investor, Itv other than the game you're building um which i think called exodus

goodbye world which i'm not an investor i don't know the game um another game you recommended is shrapnel who i think were investors and i know we've had them on the show a few times muhammad any specifics maybe you can answer the first question is what to look for but how to get exposure and then any specific games that are interesting to you, Mohamed, with obviously the relevant disclosures and Matas afterwards? Again, none of this is financial advice. It's fundamentally we all like games, so finding a game that

you enjoy, if it's a first-person shooter, if it's an MMORPG, if it's casual or hyper casual, and then actually testing out the game, seeing if this is something you enjoy, sharing it with friends, seeing if this is something you enjoy sharing it with friends seeing if it's something they enjoy because really what what makes games successful are the network effects around games and this is in the conventional sense not in the web3 sense and we mentioned runescape like world of warcraft some some of the the earlier games

that really had i mean even like another one well, that really had those network effects and have stood the test of time. But we asked about research and from an investment standpoint for Web3, and it's, we look at metrics, we look at who else is invested, we look at founders and previous experiences, the founders and exits maybe they've had. So it's a mix. There is no exact cookie cutter standpoint towards what will be successful the approach we're taking given we have such a vast portfolio is every new game every new token

economy is a hypothesis let's see what's and we take into account what's previously worked what hasn't worked where the market was at where the technology was at because there's so many different moving parts that to get something that hits all the criteria is very challenging. And especially when we talk about Web3, I mean, speculation is about 80%, utility is about 20%. So it's looking at all of these, again, moving parts together, but coming that into games. So we have Phantom Galaxies, for example.

And Phantom Galaxies have released... For anyone, Mohamed, for anyone who doesn't know I just wanted to jump in, so you are the head of tokenomics at Animoca and Tyler is the head of projects at Animoca and is building the Mochaverse for anyone listening, would you have the Animoca so when Mohamed says we, he's referring to

Animoca brands which are obviously leading the charge when it comes to Web3 gaming, so what was the first when it comes to web3 gaming so what was the first one you mentioned sorry so the first one was phantom galaxies so again it's it's triple a standard um the game was released at least the beta version was released on on epic we have if you're if you're into racing or drifting we have talk drift 2 which recently was released on epic as well and again there it's the focus on the gameplay itself is web 2 and then the web 3 inputs are like a layer abstracted away

in terms of that splitting how the web 2 users engage and how the web 3 users engage we have grapes which has been developed by vika studios they have a raft of hyper casual games pixels obviously is one of the hot ones right now we've mentioned shrapnel we've mentioned core pro for karnal in terms of first person shooters so there's loads of games that are out and there's a lot more games that are coming out and it's fundamentally something that you enjoy do you enjoy playing but also in terms of getting exposure some of these projects in general it's an nft first approach and it's maybe getting exposure to the nft exposure to the community seeing what is this a community that i

resonate with is a community that i can vibe with and then when we talk about network effects in web3 that's really what a fungible token allows it's for more users to be able to come in and a great example we've seen of that maybe in the last cycle was ApeCoin. And we saw how Yuga with the board apes and then the serums to give us mutants and then the kennels. And then it was ApeCoin. It was an ongoing process of expanding the ecosystem

because there were the positive network effects around that. Meme coins for some reason seem to have viral network effects where people will buy into a narrative. If it's Doge, if it's Shiba Inu. So finding something that makes sense, Meme coins, for some reason, seem to have viral network effects where people will buy into a narrative. If it's Doge, if it's Shiba Inu. So finding something that makes sense, a narrative you believe in, and then actually adding value. If I'm going to be a holder, if you like, I'm just buying because I think this is going to 10x or 100x.

Again, not financial advice, probably not the best strategy, but if you're going to be involved and actually add value, that's where we get the positive network effects. That's where we get that growth or that meaningful growth. What happened with the ApeCoin and ApeWorld, Yuga's gaming ecosystem? I haven't been keeping track. I don't hold any Ape. I'm a punk guy, but I know Apes were the number one NFT in terms of floor price, and they've

dropped significantly. Is that just a representation of their ecosystem having just too many things going on? Or are they doing well? Do they have any users? Has it launched? Haven't been keeping track at all? No, I mean, specific to that,

I think it was just a reflection of the market because you can argue they were the biggest project in the previous cycle. And as the market dwindled and we saw liquidity being taken out, it affected everyone, and Ape was no different to that. Whereas they've been building, if it's with the other side, if it's with different games that are coming out soon, we've seen Dookie Dash being relaunched as well as a great way to engage.

So it takes time to build good games, but the network is there. When we say the network, which is the user base, the community is there. And when you think of a user base like Ape just within the NFT holders across maybe the main two or three collections, you have 10, 20, maybe 20, 20 to 25,000 different holders across boards, mutants,

and the other side land, the other deeds, sorry. So imagine having tens of thousands that you can then take with you from one game ecosystem to another game ecosystem, which, and I'll touch on Mochaverse very quickly. We have over 700,000 unique ID holders. So all of a sudden you have a vast army unity that you can then take with you into different game ecosystems,

not just games, into different ecosystems. And where people feel that they resonate to something, they will stay around. They will stick around to that. And naturally, if something has attention, people are talking about it, it correlates to the price of the assets within that ecosystem. Yeah, Mateo, someone asked you the same question that I asked earlier to Mohamed, is getting

exposure to the narrative. And the question I've been asked is, are we just too early? Are we still too early? We were too early in the last bull market, you know, games, anything that had play to earn and it started pumping similar to how anything had meta and anything to do with the metaverse was pumping in the last bull market um now that we're getting traction again i've never seen a narrative pump more than once and correct me if i'm wrong anyone pump more than once just based on hype so usually gets a lot of hype pumps like crazy then it crashes and then it starts growing based on

utility based on use cases um so do you say, similar to Raul Palas, games do take a long time and this narrative will take longer than others, or do you think it's been long enough and games are launching, there's good games out there with good gameplay? We'll ask Mateus and then Roger that same question. Yeah, I think that, first of all, thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure to be here, Mario. And I think that last bull cycle, we had a lot of ponzi schemes that called themselves games, but was not games. And right now we have a lot of games that raised a lot of money two, three years ago and built good products

that are coming to the market in a way that can attract a lot of users from Web2. And for me, investing into games, I think that the best way is to look at the growth potential. And for that, I always try to understand what is the best narrative. And right now, I think the best night is play to a drop ai stuff into games okay i just i hate whenever you squeeze a lot of uh terms together so i don't

know what play to earn gaming with ai roger i'll ask you that same question as i just asked mateos any any are we too early in your opinion? Yeah, so, you know, I work with... Roger, I'm not sure Dave or JTV or anyone, can you hear Roger? Can you guys hear me? You can hear him. Roger, I'd love to hear your answer. So I'm going to bring you down and back up so I can actually hear what you're saying. I think, Mario, we can hear Roger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just... Yeah, all good. It's a common glitch. I've just, yeah, it's all good. It's a common glitch. I've just brought him down and sent him an invite to come back up. I'd love to get to our curious thoughts on Vijay. Actually, Vijay, look at me.

Okay, Roger's back up. That was quick. You're good, man. Yeah, go ahead, man. Yeah, so I work with a lot of game studios now and I'm always upfront with what I say. Like, are we too early? It's possible, right?

A lot of games were too early in the past that could be, you know, where it is today. Look at Helldivers 2. Helldivers 2 was put on the back end, and look, it's one of the biggest games right now, right? So, you know, you think about it. It's all about timing, right? But it's also about how these studios operate and the community they build. So, yes, I said this on the other space on the last one I was with you guys.

In five years one percent of these games that we're seeing today will survive one percent it's not a big number most of them won't be here and that's a reality we have to face but it's up to these studios to continue to build these communities so that doesn't happen so um to be honest yeah some are too early some are at the right spot but yeah it's you have to do your research and like you said how do you do that it's tough you know you got to be on the socials you got to be following certain people individuals because it is also pumps people are talking about it when people talk people start buying it's just how it is right now so you just have to watch any any any specific games roger any specific games you can mention with obviously relevant disclosures? Specific games in what sense? That have potential?

That have potential that are doing well, that the gameplay makes sense. I actually wrote down the list that Mohamed mentioned. You mentioned one of the partners here, Sharp Mill, they're doing great things, right? I think they messed up talking about how people game them the other day. You never want to tell people how you get gamed, right? You never want to

tell people how to cheat you. So I thought that was kind of, but they're doing great things. BR1 is doing the play to earn per kill. I think that's very interesting for a long-term ecosystem play. Play to earn per kill. So it's actually you earn as you kill? Yeah, so you pay to enter the game, and then each kill you get, you earn a dollar.

So it costs $1 to enter, and every kill you you get you earn a dollar so if you so it costs one dollar to enter and every kill you get you're in one dollar so ryan's actually the ceo and founder of that um he has a lot of insight to those things which is why he's so into the tokenomics side because what they're implementing will change how web3 operates inside competitive gaming oh nice yeah ryan i'd love to talk to you off the space and maybe getting involved. It sounds really cool. I want to go to Roger. Any other games you want to mention before we go to Vijay? Yeah, you got Star Heroes that are building a great thing. Neon Heroes, who has a big people from Amazon and other stuff like that. So, I mean, you have a lot of games right now with a

lot of big people pushing it. So, listen, a lot of games have the right people behind them. Like you said, we just have to hope they're just not too early because the right people are there. They're pushing the right narrative. So, you know, a lot of games, like I just said, and then, you know, it was a great game. The trailer was amazing. What's it called?

So we'll see how that operates and how they go. So, yeah, a few of those games, these shooters. You know, I just want to mention one. I want to mention one thing. What was the last one you mentioned, Cold? And then are you, and maybe just a quick disclosure, are you invested or working with any of those games or marketing them or anything?

Roger? No, I'm not invested or working with any of the games I just mentioned, correct. Okay, cool. I appreciate it. What was the last one you mentioned, Cold? I'm just taking notes here. After Ryan's okay cool i appreciate it what was the last one you mentioned called on he's taking notes here after after the one after ryan's game you mentioned the game the last one oh the last um it was um conflict sorry i have it right here oh conflict i don't know it's citizen conflict citizens conflict correct yeah yeah we're

we're invested yeah we're invested in that one i saw that trailer i learned a lot about them they look really good you know and the people behind them are very interesting as well so you know i've seen a lot of games like that i just want to mention too like you know you've seen dr dr disrespect you know launch what he has with you know the um you know the the studio that he's building and there's not a lot of noise there so i think that's something to pay attention to, right? Why haven't we seen too much noise from them over there? Are they delaying? Are they waiting?

I think it's interesting to see what type of play they're doing too, because they have the biggest creator behind them that could get them every user they want. So it'd be interesting to see how they operate. Yeah. Vijay, I want to go through some of the numbers. I know you mentioned that in the previous space, kind of to wrap up the show is we've discussed i've asked a question sorry that are we too early do the numbers show otherwise uh definitely not uh we were early in the last cycle but if you look at this cycle uh the numbers have tremendously grown and uh one thing that I repeated earlier, people need to realize that gaming takes time and effort to build, right?

You cannot build a game overnight. And then if you look at all the massive fundings that happened last cycle, those teams have delivered. They started delivering. Look at Strapnell, look at all these conflict games. And there are so many others that are doing really well. So now is the time that people have realized

that they want to put forth the focus on gaming rather than telling which chains. One of the other speakers earlier echoed that same sentiment. Because at the end of the day, I don't care if I'm playing on Solana or

Avalanche or Polkadot. I, as a gamer, I would obviously love the gaming aspect of it. So once people focus on that, obviously that gets massive, that gets bigger. And then we from BitScrunch lens, we are

actually seeing that. we are seeing the numbers spike up numbers picking it uh picking it up across chains that's the beauty right now now we have nfts getting traded getting minted almost free of cost in the last cycle there was ethereum which was obviously on the massive chains and and there was solana but But then now look around. We have Optimism, Zora, BASE, and Avalanche subnets. And then so many NFT-focused chains are also coming up. Burnt is a chain that is NFT-focused. So now that the bandwidth is spread, we can expect more games. And obviously, three-digit fundings that have happened in recent times with EigenLayer or similar other projects is a testimony

to VC's open up for massive fundings. And gaming definitely requires big funding rounds. And I'm really excited. From a data lens, I'm already seeing a lot of numbers. So looking forward to the next

set of cycle and games. Yeah, Vijay, maybe you can send me offline. I know we've mentioned too many games, but any interesting games where the numbers are looking good, I'd be very grateful. Otherwise, yeah, I think we've covered the ecosystem really well. I love Dave's jumping in and giving us a market overview as well. We'll be back on Monday.

We'll be covering narratives. I'm not sure what we'll do next week. I'll check with Ryan and Scott. Ryan and Scott will both be back Monday as well. And we'll probably cover the markets as always, cover the news, and just dig into different narratives now that we're in the midst of

a bull market. It was a great discussion. Really appreciate it. I think it was gaming week this week. Anyone in the audience, let us know your thoughts on Web3 gaming, but more importantly, what narratives we should cover next. Also go through the audience. I didn't do it too much today just to come up with some questions and recommendations for the panel.

A lot of the questions I ask, sometimes I don't give you guys credit in the comments. I get it from you guys. So I appreciate the good questions. But otherwise, great space. Enjoy your weekend, everyone. If there's breaking news or Bitcoin bumps or dumps, me and probably Dave will be there in an urgent space. Thanks a lot, everyone.

Have a wonderful weekend. Bye.