The Wolf Of All Streets - Being Defiant With Bitcoin: Peter McCormack, Host of the “What Bitcoin Did Podcast”

Episode Date: July 30, 2020

Peter McCormack is the host of the “What Bitcoin Did Podcast,” “Defiance Podcast,” and “Defiance TV.” As a journalist and filmmaker he has covered some of the most pressing global issues such as tyranny, corrupt monetary systems, inequality and technological advancement. After accruing millions of downloads and views, he is currently setting out to be the best filmmaker he can be. Scott Melker and Peter McCormack further discuss, bitcoin as monetary defiance, traveling to Venezuela, impending stock market doom, Stockholm Syndrome, American politics at its best and worst, the Craig Wright defamation lawsuit, a personal letter from Ross Ulbricht, spending bitcoin to make a movie, overcoming hardship, making the best of life, and so much more. --- CHOICE IRA by KINGDOM TRUST Don’t be part of the 7.1M Bitcoiners who have bitcoin and a retirement account but don’t have bitcoin in their retirement account. With Choice IRA by Kingdom Trust you can hold bitcoin in your retirement account. The first 1,000 users to open a Choice IRA will receive $62.50 in free BTC - visit RetireWithChoice.com/WOLF to join the waitlist and secure free BTC. --- VOYAGER This episode is brought to you by Voyager, your new favorite crypto broker. Trade crypto fast and commission-free the easy way. Earn up to 6% interest on top coins with no lockups and no limits. Download the Voyager app and use code “SCOTT25” to get $25 in free Bitcoin when you create your account --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe.This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

Today's episode is brought to you by Choice, by Kingdom Trust, and Voyager. We'll learn more about them later on in the episode. What's up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast, where twice a week I talk to your favorite personality from the world to Bitcoin, finance, art, music, politics, and sports. This show is powered by BlockWorks Group, a media company with over 20 podcasts in their network. Check them out at blockworksgroup.io. Now, if you like the podcast and you follow me on Twitter, you absolutely need to check out my website and join my newsletter where I share all my trades, charts, analysis, market thoughts, and lessons on improving your trading and investing. You can

check all that out at my brand spanking new website, thewolfofallstreets.io. With that, let's get into what's actually important. And that is today's guest, who is Peter McCormick, the host of What Bitcoin Did podcast, Defiance podcast, and Defiance TV. When he isn't interviewing guests about Bitcoin, he's on foot all around the world covering some of the most pressing global issues such as tyranny, inequality, censorship, technological barriers, and more. As a result of his hard work as a journalist and filmmaker, he's accrued millions of downloads and built an incredibly fast-growing platform. So Peter, man, thank you for taking time out of that obviously busy schedule to be here and chat. Well, yeah, thanks, man. Thanks for having me.

Not so busy right now, obviously, with the lockdown. Well, a different kind of busy. But as we're doing video, can we just explain? I've just got off my Peloton and that's why I look like shit and I'm like sweating. Yeah, well, we've all been there. And, you know, I think that we've seen a different side of every single person as a result of this lockdown. Like everybody's, nobody's well kept, nobody's well dressed. It's just kind of the nature of the beast at this point, I think. But yeah, so Peter just did 90 minutes on his Peloton. I told him that I can do about 30 minutes before my butt is raw and I lose patience and give up. So he's a beast. Dude, my butt's raw. Do you know what you were saying earlier about the padded shorts? I've got the padded shorts and the gel seat that goes over the top of the seat. And now I'm thinking of

doubling up the gel seat because I've had that thing the seat. And now I'm thinking of doubling up the gel seat because I've had that thing for a couple of months now and it's not getting easier. No, it's pretty brutal. So as I alluded to in the intro, man, you do a lot. How do you manage to produce so much quality content? I mean, how do you get all that done? Well, I have a team now, thankfully.

So it's all kind of built with having a team. So when I first started, I had one show a week and I was engineering it and doing it all. And, you know, that was fine. And then I kind of went up to two shows and engineered it a bit and got a little bit busier. And some guy wrote to me and just said, look, can I do your engineering?

I'm like, yeah, not a problem. And then I started Defiance. He got busier and I was like do you want to join me full-time and he was like yeah and then he takes over a lot of the work so when I've you know when I've done a show I just send him the files he writes all the scripts I record the scripts he masters it and then does all the publishing work and now we started producing these kind of audio documentaries I've now got a producer and a researcher who work with me for working on the background content. So really, it's just, I mean, look, I work hard.

I've always worked hard. I've always known that I've not always been the smartest, but definitely I can outwork people. And so I just work really hard. And I've been lucky to build this business up. And I've got this really amazing team around me who do a lot of the work for me now. So, yes, just scaling a business, dude. Yeah, it's awesome. So tell me more about how you got here. I mean, obviously, we all, everyone in this community knows who you are and what you do now.

But what were the beginnings of your story? I know that you've had a pretty colorful background Yeah Like I've told this for I mean, it's just a weird chain of events. I like first discovered Bitcoin in 2013 buying drugs on the Silk Road just amazing It's like yeah somebody somebody who liked his drugs that was such an amazing thing to be able to do because it just made everything easier and The review system they had in place just cut out all the shit and the crap quality. I don't do drugs now, but that was cool.

And obviously I had to use Bitcoin, right? So I first discovered Bitcoin then, but then just kind of like, just kind of, yeah, I stopped taking drugs and yeah. And then I had no need for Bitcoin. Didn't really think of anything beyond. I honestly never looked into it. I didn't know what it was. I just used it.

And then a few days later in the 2016 when my mom got sick, I wanted to buy her some cannabis oil. So just bought some more Bitcoin. And I got divorced and my company had collapsed at the time. So I was just like, I had nothing to do. So I thought, like I'd gone on Coinbase and bought the Bitcoin, but seeing there's Ethereum thing as well. divorced and my company had collapsed at the time so i was just like i had nothing to do so i thought i just like i'd gone on coinbase and bought the bitcoin but seeing this ethereum thing as well and i was like okay what's this and i just started reading about it and you know i spoke to my dad

put some money into it started trading and made and lost a load of money very quickly um but knowing knowing i was never going to be a trader because I was just crap at it my friend this guy Rich Roll has this podcast he's like this vegan athlete and I'd gone to one of his retreats in Italy just when I was having my spiritual slash midlife

breakdown slash post divorce recovery I was just being mental I was just like fuck I'm going to meditate and go to yoga retreats anyway I met this dude and he said slash post-divorce recovery but i was just being mental i was just like fuck i'm i'm gonna meditate and go to yoga retreats anyway i met this dude and he said like if you ever in la come and see me and i did and it was during the bitcoin time and i was like i think i'm gonna do a podcast about bitcoin he's like do it dude like here's the equipment here's how you do it so i just ordered it all on amazon and and then text luke martin i was like he because he was in la i was

like luke i'm gonna start a podcast you want to be on it and he said yeah so. I was like, because he was in LA, I was like, Luke, I'm going to start a podcast. Do you want to be on it? And he said, yeah. So I got an Uber up to his, recorded the first show and here we are approaching episode 250. 250, my God. That's funny because I think I texted you. You were one of the first people I was like, so what's up with this podcast thing? Should I do it? You're like, absolutely, man. Let me know how I can help. Yeah. It's so it's kind of funny to hear that you had a similar experience there. So what was it about?

Yeah, I love it, man. I love it. So what was it that really turned you on to Bitcoin when you sort of went down the rabbit hole? Because obviously, like, I mean, you're a person who cares about other people, you care about global issues, all the things that I sort of listed before. Did that bring you to Bitcoin or did Bitcoin sort of bring you to that? No, and not even the ability to buy something from my mom made me think about it as some amazing technology. I'm not trained in economics.

I didn't even think about that as a big issue. All that happened was at the time I was able to buy this digital money. It seemed to be something interesting and different from PayPal. And I was like, if this is a new wave of like decent, not really understand what decentralization is, but like just knowing that there was this new form of decentralized money, I was like, Oh, well, if you get in early, you can make a bunch of money. And I was just like, I just thought I can make a bunch of money. That's all it was. And yeah, just, and just traded and did hit a bull run, like say made and lost a load of money. But during that time,

you know, just real, because what happened was when you're trading the assets, you have to learn about them. It's like if you're going to invest in a company, dude, you've got to look at their P&R. You've got to look at the innovation. You've got to look at what their competitors are doing. So you end up doing that for like crypto assets.

And I did that. And so then I ended up learning more about them. And then, you know, learning more about Bitcoin and realized, this is really really cool and interesting and kind of gone that kind of full transition now where I don't I don't trade anymore I don't really look at charts I don't really look at the price the only time I ever know the price is when people tweet about it right and because what I mean it's different for you you're a trader dude But like I've tried to separate myself from the price to focus more on the tech And yeah, I mean and here I am now like doing this show all about it and you know, I'm a huge supporter of Bitcoin

and I think it I think it can change the world and Look, I'm not like the most hardcore Bitcoin is I don't think I've either either they're wrong and they're And look, I'm not like the most hardcore Bitcoiners. I don't think I've either, either they're wrong and they're, they believe Bitcoin can fix things it can't, or I'm wrong and I'm not there yet where they are. But like, I feel like as time goes on, I become more and more of a Bitcoiner.

It's interesting because, you know, it's kind of like the meme, I guess, in this industry is Bitcoin fixes this. And as you just sort of alluded to, they apply it to literally everything. And it obviously doesn't fix everything. I think I agree with you more there. But, I mean, you've been all around the world. What does it fix?

I mean, you know, I know you were in Venezuela. I know it fixes a lot of problems in a place like Venezuela. So can you talk about that? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really fix much stuff in the US and the UK right it fixed my ability to get some it fixed my problem with scoring crap cocaine down you know in a Tesco's car park from some fucking loser it fixed that but it doesn't really like not important issues um and i know that might trigger some people and they'll argue and like of course it does i wouldn't have it if it didn't fix some

issues um but basically the most important use case i've seen was in venezuela now it can't fix venezuela yeah no of course you you need to get rid of the men with the guns and that is maduro and that needs to happen right and i know someone will make the argument well if we have hyper bitcoinization over a long enough time period then there is no money left then blah blah blah like i get that right we're a long way off that right it's not going to fix it's not going to fix venezuela this year or the next five years and it's not going to help most people because most people are living on like a dollar a day or even less it might be something like ridiculous like six dollars a month so they can't even

use Bitcoin because transaction fees are too high. And they just don't care. Even if the transaction fees were so low, I just don't think people would care. I think they care about how am I going to eat today and how am I going to make the money to do that? And I'll just use whatever money is there. Now, if you're middle class in Venezuela, you give a damn about Bitcoin because you have access to the technology, you're educated, you're earning enough money to care. So when I was out there, I met these miner dudes. They kept all their money in Bitcoin and all they did is every week they transferred what they needed into the Bolivar and then spent that money over the week. But they didn't hold their money in the Bolivar because at least 10% inflation every month. And you didn't have access to your money. I mean, there's limits on how much you can take out of an ATM. I mean, they literally have dysfunctional money.

Yeah. And I met some Argentinians when I was in Uruguay and they get it as well. They've been through La Corralita where there was hyperinflation and then the banks, the government was stopping people actually getting their money from the banks. So they've had their money seized and inflated to nothing. So there are people that get it and it can solve those problems. And I imagine there's a bunch of people in Lebanon right now who are going to hear about Bitcoin. They're going to be like, damn, I wish I bought Bitcoin. And there's going to be people in Turkey right now who've just, I think they've just hit nearly 13% inflation. They're going to be like, damn, I wish I bought Bitcoin. And there's going to be people in Turkey right now who've just, I think they've just hit nearly 13% inflation. They're going to be like, I need Bitcoin right now.

And that is a definite problem that Bitcoin can fix in these countries. It's whether we see through this current crisis, higher inflation levels in the UK and the US, whatever people think of MMT, like it's coped until now in a god awful way, in a number of ways you can criticize it, but we still haven't had hyperinflation yet. We've had this slow, insidious inflation. What will be interesting to see is if we get higher inflationary numbers in the UK, even three or 4% would start to scare people if we get to like 10 that'll be super interesting but i think that's one i think that's almost the main use case for me now

is this kind of hedge against government fuckery i think seizure resistance is important i think privacy is important i think they're all important but right right now, inflation, like everybody who's living under any form of inflation is being stolen from right now. And Bitcoin can help prevent that. Do you think that there, as a result of COVID and this global economic crisis, that there's been somewhat of an awakening among average people about that problem where maybe they didn't even realize it at all? I mean, I don't think it's kind of like you alluded to with people in Venezuela. There's certain things that matter to you and there's certain things that don't. And at a basic level, everybody's just trying to eat, take care of their kids and

do those things. But now it's like there's these huge macro issues that people maybe are becoming aware of. I mean, do you think that your average person gives a shit about inflation or you think we're still far off from that? Way, way off from that. And I'll tell you why. I've stopped using my Facebook as a place to put pictures of me and the kids going on holiday. I just don't care anymore. I just got bored of that. But I didn't get rid of it.

And all I do now is I use it just to push news or push things on Twitter. So Raoul Pal might put the 10-year bond yield chart up, which is trending towards zero. And he'll explain in the tweet why this is dangerous and what this means. I'll put that up on Facebook with an explanation, hat tip Rao Pao, no one gives a shit. I'll explain what inflation is, no one gives a shit.

I'll explain what money printing means, nobody cares. Because I think for a couple of reasons. I think it's too much to get your head around it in a social media post. I think most people are just getting on with their lives. And right now they're like, because most people have this government Stockholm syndrome, which I had before I discovered Bitcoin, but they're like, the government is just this thing we vote for and they fix stuff for us, right? Right. Not many of these people I know are libertarians or even know libertarianism is like an idea.

So they just get on with life and they're put into lockdown and they expect the government to fix it and the government puts people on furlough and pays out the money and they just think, oh, cool, that happens. None of them have gone through the process of questioning what the money printing means and the potential for inflation. And honestly, I'm relentlessly explaining it. And some people will argue back. And occasionally I'll get somebody going, I think I've got like 2,000 friends on Facebook. And that's only 2,000 because I get people like at me now because of the show, but my auntie asked about

buying some gold and another guy posted a link to an article. He said, Oh, I think people call max, right. And it was something to do with inflation. People just, I don't think they realize what might be coming. Now, if you go to someone in Lebanon now, if they get their, um, they, if, if they get their loan from the IMF and they fix their economy, and you go to people there and say, do you want to buy a bit of this alternative currency that can't be inflated? It's called Bitcoin. Explain it to them. I think they're going to get it. And if you go to Argentina, I know they get it. And people in Venezuela who have enough money get it. I think you almost have to go through the pain to get it.

And I think it's only when, if we start hitting something like 10% inflation, 15% inflation in Western countries, I think people are going to go, hold on, what the fuck is this? I just don't think people are questioning it, dude. Yeah. And I don't think that's likely, honestly. I mean, I think 3%, 4%, like you said, it gets scary and it's possible, but I just, you know, I don't see 10%, 15%. And as much as that's sort of the Bitcoin maximalist wet dream, I just think that that's very far out, if even possible at all. Right. Yeah, I don't know. It depends.

I don't know how it pans out. It depends how long this covid thing goes on it depends how long they try lockdowns for but we are heading for an economic crash like apocalypse the uk gdp was down was it like 25 last month every one month that's the biggest drop in 300 years and we're not going to have this v-shaped recovery. Lots of jobs are being lost. But I don't think we're going to see the impact for at least three months. I think the furlough scheme is going to end, and there's going to be a lot of people out of work scrambling around for jobs,

and then it's going to get a little bit more serious. And if the government keeps having to print money to support welfare here or to support big infrastructure projects to provide jobs, it may have an impact on inflation. I just don't know. Yeah, it's impossible to predict and probably irresponsible to believe that we know what the government is thinking or what kind of plans they have because they leak so little of it, honestly, to us. It's funny, you touched on the V-shaped recovery and people point to this, literally, you look at a chart, you see the V-shaped recovery on the stock market. And so I think that a lot of people are fooled or believe that because the stock market's backed up, the economy is fixed, which is just so incorrect and terrifying that

people, at least in this country, see the stock market and they say, it's fine, we're good. Election's coming, my money's made, you know, my beautiful 401k or whatever. But I agree with you. I mean, I think that we're headed down a really, really dangerous path and it's going to get far, far worse. But what do you make of the stock market recovery in context of what we're seeing with actual economic data? Well, it just proves what a big scam this all is. I mean, there's a V-shaped recovery for the stock portfolios of rich people. Or let's not even say just rich people. I mean, stockholders. But people talk about V-shaped recovery because that's what happened

after 9-11. The skies were shut down for three days. There was a definite impact on the stock market, an economic crash. People didn't know what this meant. 9-11 was one of those moments, one of those probably three or four times in your life you know exactly where you were when you found out about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do.

You do. I can tell you the exact story. And then we all watched the news for three days. No one did any work. The stock market crashed. Nobody knew what it meant. But there was little impact upon the economy because what really happened? Everyone just stopped working for three days.

The momentum of business has changed now like like airlines are not going to get back to the capacity they were at that could be years you've got planes just sat there on you know and the economics of flying a plane then that it's not cheap so there's a bunch of planes sat there not doing anything which means you're to have a lot of pilots losing their jobs. Ryanair have just negotiated a reduction in salaries for pilots in the UK, and they're about to close some of their bases in Germany because they can't renegotiate. There's going to be a lot of pilots, a lot of ground staff,

a lot of air staff. They're going to lose their jobs. That's just one industry. Then you've got hotels. Then what about restaurants? What's going to happen with restaurants or even bars? When we went to the pub on Saturday, it's not a packed bar because you have to book the table.

Right. So the only way the economics works for them is they have to raise their prices. Of course. That's inflation in a different way. Right, it's still inflation yeah so there's just a lot of a lot of stuff that's to come and i just think the stock market right now is really the u.s stock market leading things and i my guess is this is mnuchin and um uh donald trump playing one of their cards for 2020 election. If the stock market drops, that's the only card.

This is the main card left. So I just, I don't know. It just makes me think more bullshit. Well, what is your perception? I mean, I know you can't speak for everyone all over the world, but it's funny, as an American, I know how I view our country at this point. I'm really curious as to, you know, from an outsider, someone who's on the outside looking in, what do you make of what's happening here? It's really interesting.

So I think in terms of your election, you're in a very similar position I was in our election. I couldn't vote. I didn't vote because I had a choice between an actual socialist a real socialist not a democratic socialist an actual socialist who wanted to um he wanted to for certain industries i think it was like the railways he wanted them taking them back into government ownership. So he was an actual socialist. And then we had a guy called Boris Johnson, who was a proper right-wing Tory. Now look, I understand the libertarian arguments against social safety nets, but whilst you have a government and whilst you have people paying tax, there needs to be a certain redistribution.

And the redistribution and the austerity by the Conservative Party was very harsh. And I just couldn't vote for either of them. And I think probably I won't ever vote again. And I think, I look at the US, I think at the same time now, you've got Donald Trump, who is a fucking moron. He's objectively speaking a moron. No, he's actually an idiot.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the people who like him either like him because they're Republican, then therefore they're like anyone. I think there's that. I think there's the burn it down crowd who like him because they're like, he's just fucking ridiculous. And that's great.

And I think there's the crowd who like him because they hate the left so much. But like, objectively speaking, he's a lying. He lies. Now, that's not to say he doesn't do other good things, right? I think he does a lot of great stuff. But he is a compulsive liar, and everything is about him. And I struggle with people who can't see that. But at the same time, I would never want Joe Biden to be my president.

I think the Democrat Party is a joke. So I think it's a very similar position to the UK. What I think the Democrat Party is a joke. So I think it's a very similar position to the UK. What I think is most interesting, I'm a big fan of the US. I've traveled there 70 or times. Love it. Love the country. Love the people. The politics is the only downside to me of the US really. Just love the country. And I've spent a lot of time studying the constitution, the declaration of independence. I've watched documentaries about Washington about Jefferson you know just really try and understand what what happened during the civil war what they tried to do when they built the country and it blows my mind it's really really cool everything that happened and it just

feels like people talk about the Constitution a lot but they tend to use it in defense of certain arguments but it's not like they believe in the whole Constitution anymore the cherry pick the same thing I mean it's the same thing for religious people with the Bible right they they they choose their one story that they love but ignore the story that involves like you know throwing stones at someone for interrupting their parents or something. But it's like the you know the Constitution for me it's not about the individual points it's almost like it's what they were trying to do in building

the nation what they were trying to prevent like understanding human nature and understanding how man can be corrupted and uh yeah man or woman now but you know and then and then it's generally more men anyway but um understand how man can be corrupted they wanted to create a way like that could protect the like the sanctity of the government and it just feels like that's lost now you You have a government based on surveillance and corruption and money printing and lies. And it's just like, this is so far away from what I believe they tried to build. And that's really sad to me. It's sad to me as well. As an American, I agree 100%. Also, though, interesting, how much wisdom is there left in great thinkers from hundreds of years ago? Now, I believe in the Constitution.

Don't get me wrong. It's just sort of a devil's advocate or another way to view it. People who are religious, like I, are very religious, which is their choice. Like, you know, they look back at the Bible. And like I said, they sort of cherry pick the lines they like, but forget the ones that they don't. They don't really take it into context that, you know, they're listening to scientific arguments from people who thought the earth was flat, you know what I mean? And you get to go back to 1700s.

Well, these guys, yes, they had these great principles, but they also own slaves. And, you know, it wasn't really freedom for everyone. It was sort of freedom for white men. So, you know, how much do you believe that, like, they really understood what could possibly be coming? Or, you know, do you think that countries like ours and yours, which is even older, should be rewriting their constitutions for, you know, current times? Or do you think that the wisdom is really there? Well, we need a constitution in the UK. We don't have it. In general, right.

We have terrible free speech laws. I mean, I'm being sued by Craig Wright in the UK. We don't have it. In general, right. We have terrible free speech laws. I mean, I'm being sued by Craig Wright in the UK in the High Court because of our terrible libel laws, right? And it's absolutely bullshit. We don't have a constitution. And I envy your constitution because at least you have that to refer back to. And when I've read the constitution, I still think an awful lot of it stands up today. But I'm not educated enough and I'm not American,

so I couldn't debate whether it needs updating in any way. But when I have read through it and I have studied it and when I have read the Declaration of Independence and I've watched these documentaries, I still felt like a lot of it still relevant today. I mean, I think the Second Amendment was designed for different kinds of weapons. And I'm in this weird position where I do a lot of work with Americans and I have a different view on guns than the US. I would never dare to say people should not have the guns in the US anymore because I've educated myself about

it. I've been to places like Wyoming and I've learned about yeah but at the same time I would never want guns introduced in the same way in the UK because we don't need it and I know that's against ultimate freedom blah blah blah I get all that I understand what people say I just I'm just not at that point where I want that yet but I do think a lot of your constitution still stands up today. I think it's, I'm jealous that we don't have one. Yeah. I mean, the second amendment obviously is interesting and goes to that exact thing. It's you're interpreting an ancient document that was written for a somewhat separate and specific purpose at that time, right?

What you kind of touched on, right? You're talking about muskets and militias, but the principle of it being that you should have the right to protect yourself from the government is prescient and definitely like something that is relevant now. You know, and people may have those fears. So I can see both sides of an argument like that. You talk about you had the defiance manifesto and you use the word defiance, obviously, in your branding and all those things. What does defiance mean to you? Yeah, good question. That manifesto was actually written by Alex Gladstein from the Human Rights Foundation. Obviously, a close friend of mine now.

Defiance for me originally was I wanted to do other interviews that weren't Bitcoin. I felt myself falling into that. I did the interview with Lynn Albrecht, Ross Albrecht's mom. I did one with Ali Eve Knox, the adult actress. I did a few of them like that and I felt this desire to do other interviews, but Bitcoin has this reputation problem with certain people, it puts them off. So I just wanted another show, and Defiance felt like the title. Has the show truly lived up to it? Not entirely. I've done some shows which aren't entirely based on Defiance.

But to me, Defiance means it's like standing up against authority or rules standing up and saying and believe and saying you don't agree with this and you're willing to fight against things whether that's fighting as an individual or as a group but it's usually but for, it's against unfair or agrarious authoritarian rule. Right. Makes sense. And how does Bitcoin fit into that? Or does it? Or is it really you just were separating yourself completely from Bitcoin to go that route?

Oh, no, definitely. I mean, Bitcoin is like monetary defiance for me. It's like, fuck you. I mean, the great thing about bitcoin is i've got bitcoin and people cannot get it off me i know now because like i'm i'm i've gone the the step beyond just having the hardware well i'm now set up with a multi-sig nobody can take this bitcoin from me now and that is brilliant and they can't tell me what to do it they can't they can't steal it from me they can't even tax me i mean they threaten to, but they can't if I don't want them to.

And that, to me, is defiance. That is, this is my money. Fuck you. This isn't a certain amount that's insured in the bank or like pounds which you can inflate. This isn't money you can steal. This is mine. You cannot get your hands on it. To me, it is an act of defiance.

Don't be a part of the 7.1 million Bitcoiners in the United States who have Bitcoin and a retirement account, but don't have Bitcoin in their retirement account. Seriously, you can hold Bitcoin in your retirement account and not just GBTC. How can you do this? Through a self-directed choice IRA by Kingdom Trust. The first thousand users to open a choice IRA will receive $62.50 in free Bitcoin. Visit retirewithchoice.com slash wolf. That's R-E-T-I-R-E W-I-T-H-C-H-O-I-C-E dot C-O-M slash W-O-L-F. podcast listeners receive extra points to move up the wait list and get their choice IRA first. Do it right now. It's time to take control of your financial future and free yourself from the restrictions of classic retirement accounts. Are you sick of paying

ridiculous fees to trade crypto? It's time you try Voyager. It's hands down my favorite place to buy and trade crypto and it's's 100% commission free. Voyager gives you easy access to more than 30 top crypto assets, and you can instantly transfer cash from your bank account so you never miss a trading opportunity. Even better, you can now automatically earn interest on your crypto holdings. Currently, they're offering 5% interest on Bitcoin and 6% on USDC. Yes, you heard that correctly, 6%. And there are no limits or lockups, which means your funds always stay liquid. Find out why so many people are making the switch to Voyager. Visit investvoyager.com or search for Voyager on the iTunes or Google

Play Store and get $25 in free Bitcoin when you use the promo code SCOTT25. That's investvoyager.com, promo code SCOTT25 for $25 in free Bitcoin and start trading today. Can you talk about multisig? A lot of people here may have not gone that far down the rabbit hole, but it's important. Yeah. So I set myself up with Casa. I was just, you know what, I don't know about you, it's just been bugging me for a while. I'd gone that step to the hardware wallet. It was here in the house. I'd backed up my private key. But I was always like, if my house burns down, I'm kind of fucked.

Yeah. Because my private key was written down in a piece of paper. And it was also stored on an air gaps machine in a house the house burns down the the memory um the hardware while it's dead the air gap device is dead and the books burnt that was a scenario and also i was just worried about me fucking up right like what if over a few years i forget about something or what if you know one of these devices get hacked so i spoke to cars when i said and i they offered it to me for free but i was like i want to pay i was just like look i think it's about this time i took that step the really

weird thing about setting up the car so if people listen to a multi-sig it just means that if you want to send any bitcoin from your wallet you have have to sign from three devices. The really interesting thing about this, this might sound mad, is that when you set up your castle multisig, you don't have to back up your private key. Do you know why? No, I don't. It actually makes your security worse. Yeah, exactly. Right. But you don't need it because what happens is you've

got a three or five multi-sig you only need three of the devices to sign a transaction if you lose a device you don't have to restore it you just buy a new one and you swap it out right so that was private keys become a point basically become a point of failure for you, which people don't realize. And I've had, you know, I've been down that rabbit hole because my security, I'm looking into multi-sig actually, I never got there, but it's much like you said, it's like, I've got this shit all over the place. Right. But one big bump on the head and maybe somebody doesn't understand my weird security configuration, even though, you know, I know that like my wife

will have access and all these things. But this isn't a safety deposit box either. This isn't a safe here. This isn't a safe here. And I'm the point of failure there. And like you said, private keys, well, they can be burnt or they can be stolen still, no matter how much you secure them. Have you seen the film Parasite? Yes. Did you put it off for a while? Did you watch it straight away? I put it off for a little while, yeah. And I never put off the number one, like,

the Winnie the Pooh. I always just watch it. And this one, just because it was like Korean, it was subtitles, I was like, uh, I just put it off for a while and then I watched it and I was like, that is brilliant. Multisig is the same, right? I just kept putting it off I was like I can't be bothered

do another day do another day I did it and I'm just like it's such a relief how good is that movie yeah but dude that movie blew my mind it was not what I expected at all same mostly because it's like every kind of movie wrapped into

one you start with this sort of playful and light comedy. And all of a sudden you're in a horror film, which then goes into like this deep dive into the human, you know, psyche and soul. It was really one of the most brilliant movies that I think I've ever seen. Well, the funny thing was I watched it immediately again. Cause I got my son home. I was like, dude, you gotta watch this film. He's like, I don't want to. I said, trust me. And I watched it immediately again because I got my son home I was like dude you gotta watch this film he's I don't want to trust me and I watched it again and it's one of those film when you watch it for the second time you spot so many different things can you hear

this noise by the way I gotta do that just a little bit doesn't matter yeah um it's one of those films where like did you ever you've seen the film screamream, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. A hundred times. I've probably seen that movie a hundred times. It's from our childhood. So that film, the second time you watch it, because you know who the killers are, it takes an entirely different spin. You're like, shit, look what they're saying. Right, because you see every hint.

They basically told you and you just didn't know yet. You just didn't know. But they do it very, like, everyone's a hint. But it just blows your mind watching that for a second time. I watched this for a second time. just didn't know yet. You just didn't know. But they do it very, like everyone's ahead, but it's just, it just blows your mind watching that for a second time. I watched this for a second time. There's so many different things

I spotted that I didn't spot the first time. Like, for example, do you know, actually, I'm going to give things away. There'll be plot spoilers. It's not, it's just some,

there's just some, you just said there's going to be a spoiler. There's some, there's just some like, just one little bit. you know the bit where they're getting clothes because their place has been flooded? yeah. that's cut at the scene where the other mom is in her walk-in wardrobe picking her outfit and it's just like little moments like that. i was just like i didn't see it the first time and i was just like ah they're just

the kind of the class difference they were highlighting yeah yeah but there's so many different bits like that through the film that they just i was just like oh that's cool i didn't spot it the first time yeah so you found bitcoin as you said before because of the silk road and buying weed so um you've okay interviewed lynn albre Ross, Ross's mom. I did as well. Um, and really mind blowing conversation to be honest and just brutal and painful. I know there's another side to that story, but having been a user, I guess of the Silk Road and seeing the, the, the path that led Ross down, how, what,

what's your take on his situation and on the Silk Road collapse in general? I mean, it's very sad. Objectively speaking, the Silk Road was a solution to the war on drugs. I mean, like all the evidence is there, prohibition doesn't work. The only person who benefits from prohibition are criminals because they take advantage of the positive economics in that because these are illicit substances, there's a big markup in the trade. What we've seen with the gradual legalization of weed and cannabis within the U.S.

is a professionalization of the industry, standards improving, the quality of the products improved. I'm not sure on the price. I think the price has been fairly stable. But at the same time, and the world hasn't collapsed, people are still smoking weed in places where it's not legal and people are smoking in places where it's legal. The difference is you've removed the criminality and you've improved the product.

I believe, as controversial as it is, that should be the same for all drugs because the war on drugs has failed. All it's done is created cartels and crime and drug addicts and all kinds of different problems. And militarized police. Yeah, militarized police. And it's just a big waste of money. What the Silk Road did, the Silk Road was essentially what the legalization of weed had kind of done in the US in that it professionalized it.

So I know a journalist and he said one of the people was using the dealers on the Silk Road. They were in the middle of nowhere. They created a little warehouse. They were packaging up their product, and they were selling it. They weren't driving around the streets involved in, like, gun battles or anything like that. It was semi-professionally packaged when you ordered it. But the great thing is the room.

Yeah. But it was, you know, one of the problems where if you especially if you uh if you take cocaine is that so many times when you're buying cocaine the quality is shit you know it's like am i gonna get rubbish batch here and you know you go and you do a line you're like oh it's a good one oh that's a crap one oh that's an all right one the great thing about the silk road is because the dealers were reviewed, nobody dared sell shit or overcut anything because they didn't want to get a bad review.

So you knew what you were buying. That's amazing. And if you actually look at the research from the Drug Policy Alliance, they explain how the Silk Road reduced harm, not only in the consumption of drugs, but also reduced harm in the streets. It took violence off the streets. It stopped people having to go into violent situations

to purchase drugs. If you legalize all drugs, they'll professionalize and there won't be a trade for the criminals. It will become professionalized. Seems obvious. And you're not going to get worse problems. It's become professionalized. Seems obvious. And, and, and you're not going to get worse problems. It's not like society is going to collapse.

And you'll be gathering, you'll be collecting tax revenue as opposed to putting your money to work on the street to stop a problem that you can't stop. Right. Yeah. I mean, and you'll stop sticking. If it's going to happen anyways,

and you're the government, don't shouldn't you want to be the one who's profiting from it? Although they are in other ways. It's funny, I've never heard... Go ahead. Sorry, it's just that my point being is that Ross actually proved something with the Silk Road. And for him to now...

Look, he committed a crime. He took a risk. Not that I believe he should go to jail, but I believe he understood the consequences and he's faced those. And I asked Lynn about this. I asked Lynn, what do you think? And we both agree, time served is fair enough. What good, what use is society being served keeping him in prison? It hasn't been a deterrent for people creating dark web websites. It's costing them you know

whatever 40 50 60 i don't know what the cost is thousand dollars a year to keep in there he could be a benefit society it's serving no purpose to anyone um he should be released i don't think he will be under the current administration and we just have to hope he gets a pardon at some point but it's terribly sad i'm a big fan of ross he uh he wrote to me once which was amazing um which was just blew my mind and he wrote me this really kind and genuine letter and is he going to come out and create another dark web website or become a criminal no way yeah exactly dude he would just add to society so hopefully at some point he will get a presidential pardon sadly it probably won't happen until he's like 50 or something,

which would just be awful. Yeah. And it's interesting that the people who are actually selling drugs on the site got light sentences and he's got like three life terms plus 40. I mean, it's more than El Chapo and these, I mean, literally cartel leaders. It's just absurd. And I don't understand how, even if he did every single thing that he was accused of,

it still doesn't seem like the sentence fits the crime. Or it doesn't fit almost. They were just trying to prove a point. Judge Forrest, you know, is a bit of a cunt if you ask me. Clearly. But the interesting thing, Silk Road 2, the guy did that. Didn't he get like two weeks or something yeah yeah i mean like he maybe served a few weeks or months or something but whatever it

was and that guy knew exactly what he was doing there's no argument i think so i was going to say i think they had child porn on the silk road too ross didn't allow that no like yeah i mean people accuse uh ross and the silk the Silk Road of hiring hitmen and child porn, but that's all completely false. And I think that's a result of what Silk Road 2 did. And the guy who did Silk Road 2 obviously knew what he was doing by copying the first one. You can make an argument that Ross was a bit naive, obviously. He was trying to build this libertarian paradise or whatever. And so the people who followed up and did it knowingly should have received a much harsher sentence than him. But how amazing is Lynn?

She's so awesome, man. I mean, I feel so bad for her. It's just, I mean, what a terrible, and there's, you know, listen, there's a lot of people suffering through similar things in this world, unfortunately, all over the place, but it's really just couldn't have, you know, it's the last person you would want to see it happen to when you speak to her for sure. You touched on something really interesting there though about Silk Road that I'd never heard or considered, which was the reviews. But the whole world now is like every business is made or broken based on a

Yelp review or a Google review. And that was not the case back then. So you're basically saying that they were way ahead of their time, not just in like the libertarian marketplace, but in the way that you like verified a product, a product or, you know, the way that a user could really tell another user what they should or shouldn't be buying.

I mean, that the whole world runs on that now. Yeah, dude, it was, it honestly, that was the game changer. I remember I used to buy and you'd pay more. You'd see this guy, he'd be like 86% pure Peruvian flake, 100 pound a gram. I'd be like, I'll take that shit. And it was brilliant. It just totally worked. And look, I don't do drugs

anymore now because I went too far with it. And I realized actually, you know, certain drugs like cocaine, they're not good for you long-term. I mean, even short-term, they're not great. And I would never want my kids to do them. But I still believe prohibition is worse. Of course, just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that there's not, you know, a place for it in the world, unfortunately, for better or worse. So you mentioned obviously the shit libel laws in the UK and your situation

with Craig Wright. Can you give a bit of an update? I'm sure everybody here knows the situation, but maybe give a very quick intro and an update to where that stands. Well, yeah, I mean, he's suing me for libel because I said he's not Satoshi and said he's a liar and a fraud. So right now we're going through something called Discovery. Trial date is set for May next year.

There's different steps in the process. I can't talk about a lot of it, but there's different steps in the process we have to go through in in the case and there's different times it might collapse i can't believe it hasn't collapsed it's the most ludicrous situation that everything that you've seen happen in terms of information provided and lies and such and such which you you've seen in the climate case, is happening in this one. And I look forward to winning the case or having it thrown out or whatever happens. And hopefully he goes off and does something else.

I mean, somebody clearly has mental health problems to be able to be such a compulsive liar. Yeah, it reminds me of someone else, but we already touched on that person earlier, I guess. Some of our politicians. So how can people help you with that? And I guess also to ask, has this been exceptionally expensive for you?

Has it kept you up at night? I mean, it seems like a net negative for you to be sued, you know, actively by someone who clearly has somewhat unlimited resources. Yeah. So I've been very fortunate in that people have helped support. I could not have financed this. We've went to the hundreds of thousands. I'm not a wealthy person. So a couple of people privately helped me to begin with. That's not been announced their names. But Tether are now helping finance my legal costs.

And I mean, it's really, really expensive. And what it does highlight is that libel laws benefit to the rich who can pay for expensive lawyers. And people who don't have money get silenced. This is why the first amendment that you have is so fucking important because it's a leveler and we need that leveler and you have to accept people therefore being mean to you and lying or whatever but that's better than having a situation where rich people or governments can silence people through lawyers and money but it's

it has been stressful at times um It's been quite good fun sometimes. I'm not going to lie. Like some of the ludicrous things that have happened. I mean, no one can really help. It's more of a case of patience now because people want to know what's going on. But you know, I'm just having to like, just say, be patient. Be patient with the case being resolved. So I've noticed that you actively publish your earnings for the podcast. And what struck me when I've, when I've looked at it before is the level of your expenses. Cause you know, for people who do it, I guess like this, you kind of have your zoom call, you have your producer, you post it.

Are those expenses coming from your heavy travel and actually going to meet all these people in person is that is that where the expense comes from uh so the majority is now staffing right yeah like i said i've got the two full-time employees and two part-time employees and you know these aren't i'm not employing cheap people like My engineer is really shit hot. He's expensive. So I'm spending like, I don't want to give anyone salaries away, but let's say I'm, let's give a broad area. I'm probably spending in dollar term, 20 to 30,000 a month on salaries. Wow.

Yeah. Across freelancers and full-time yeah um my travel used to be ten thousand dollars a month because i would be traveling to the three weeks i would be doing you know if i came out to the us and i would do five cities and 15 flights you've got the flights hotel costs food and the thing is when you're traveling that intensely, you just want to spend that extra 50 bucks on a nicer hotel room. Oh, of course. You get to your hotel and you just want to sit at the restaurant and have a steak and a glass of wine.

And I could have done everything cheaper, but it was just a hard work. You just want those kind of comforts. But yeah, the podcast does well but i reinvested all most of it back into it to just grow the product and the business why was it so important for you though to be face to face with people and to have the interviews in that manner yeah it's a really good question because obviously i've not been doing it for the last four months it was a number of reasons, Scott. Honestly, when it first happened, my marriage breakup was awful.

Like the fucking hell I went through with that. And I think I almost like, not in a hippie way, almost manifested a life where I could get away every two or three weeks for two or three weeks. So I'd be with my kids and get away. But what actually ended up happening is that I started doing these interviews in person and then some remote. And once in person, you have a much better rapport. Right now, we see each other over Zoom. Not the same.

It's not the same. That peripheral vision, you talk over each other less. There's more body language that goes into it. You get more emotion out of the interview. You draw things out in certain interviews you wouldn't normally get like i did one with the malice family and that could not have happened if it wasn't in person um that said post lockdown i don't know if i'm going to travel as much um because uh i'm kind of over a lot of my breakup issues.

My kids like having me around more. And I want to be a filmmaker. So I need to be here working on a craft. I work a lot on... I studied a lot about podcasting. I actually tried to teach myself how to be a better host. And now I'm trying to learn how to be a filmmaker. So I just won't have the time to travel.

So what did you learn about being a better host? Because I could certainly use a few tips. I'm new to this. How many have you done, mate? We're about 40, 40 something-ish in recorded. So it's just a baby. Have you done any in person? We haven't been able to do them in person at all because i started basically right before covid and we were bootstrapping it and so yeah it's been all uh and a lot of them without even video so you know we

were just just talking which obviously you can tell when the person's you know checking their phone or disinterested or doing other things yes uh where is where you are a secret no i'm in florida florida okay so there are people in florida someone like jun seth you could interview or krista rose and you could do that in person and you should do one in person yeah yeah yeah charlie fuck yeah of course charlie i mean you should do one in person to see what it's like. So it's hard. Most of it is just experience, right?

Like you're a DJ, dude. When you first got behind the decks, when you first, and it was proper 1210s, I imagine, you're terrible. And then over time, you just got the hang of it, and then it becomes more natural. That itself will come. The biggest step change for me in my podcasting is when I try to make the transition from having a list of questions to having nothing. Yeah.

So I started to go into interviews with nothing and just talk. Just talk. And that was really difficult to begin with, but it got easier. And I also spent a lot of time listening to Rogan and tried to listen to how he moves interviews forward. And he does brilliant things where he gets people to explain things and blah, blah, blah. And then I got to the point where I didn't have questions anymore. I went into every single interview without any questions prepared. I knew who the guest was and just did it. And I did that for like three months and that was an absolute game changer because it meant it became a conversation just like two people hanging out and kind of a bit of fun.

I now have questions, but the questions are only if I need them and they don't like tomorrow i'm interviewing brian armstrong from coinbase i can't have questions there because there's a shitload i want to go through with him and i don't want to miss anything out right but but if i was going to interview you scott i would just get on the shoot the shit with you and that was that was the big biggest game changer is to not have a pen not have a a pad, not have any questions, just talk to people. And yeah, that was the biggest change I found in podcasting. I appreciate that. So now making the transition into filmmaking or focusing more on it, obviously you've been doing it for a long time. What's the next project? What are you looking to do?

So I did my first couple of like mini documentaries just to learn um i don't think they're great i cringe watching them the whole time other people have said nice things i i think some people being nice i mean i know they're okay i think they're not bad for my first go i think with with the right team around me i like i can i can do better my My long-term goal is to make feature films, right? That's my long-term goal. So the intention is once lockdown ends is I'm trying to work on making a music video. So there's a band, I've got a concept for a music video. Hopefully I'm going to be able to make that. And then what I think I might do is just

for a couple of years, make music videos or short films if i can if i can break into that um and then i've got a like a very very loose outline prepared for for a concept for a film which will be a short like 30 minute film which i'm about to start working on the script for um but most of this stuff I expect it to be shit until I learn how to do it well, right? That's my experience in music, dude. You're literally describing, I can't even listen to stuff I made in the beginning.

And it's amazing to hear the progress, obviously, and to be able to look back and have a record of basically your entire process. So I would imagine with music, it to be able to look back and have a record of basically your entire process. So I would imagine with music, it's very similar to filmmaking. But man, yeah, it takes a long time before you ever can look back without regret on the things that you put out publicly. Well, it's like my first podcast, my first few, I listened to them. I, God, I just hate listening to them. But all this stuff is just hard work. That's like just relentless hard work.

So people will say things like, oh, you're just creating a podcast. You just switch on. I'm like, you've got no idea how hard people work. Yes, you can just turn up and do an interview. Or you can craft an interview. You can practice it. And then you can craft you know you can craft an interview you can practice it and then you can work on document like i'm i have like a go and i'm just working really hard to do and look i might fail you know film filmmaking might be one step too far but i'm gonna give it a go

i seriously doubt that so have you ever uh thought about uh doing a movie about your life story no that'd be awful and shit. I'm not that interesting. I really have no interest in telling my life story. Although I do have an idea of a script for a film which is based on just part of something that happened in my life. It's actually about somebody else, which I think is like a really solid idea. but these can all come with time. right now I just want to be

able to get to the point where I can make a short film. it's really interesting because I've looked out at some of the films that have been made on low budgets. so do you know Darren Aronofsky? mm-hmm of course.. Did Mother and Black Swan. But one of his first films, Pie, was made for $60,000, which kind of blew my mind. And it's such an epic movie too. Dude, so epic. But it can be done. But there's another film.

Have you ever seen Primer? I don't think so. No. It's like a time travel film. It's brilliant. I found it was made for like $7,000. I've never seen it. Dude, you've got to see this film and know it was made for $7,000.

You would think it was made for like $700,000. Like I can't understand how they made it for $7,000. I just don't understand it. But they did. So in my head, I'm like, right, if I want to make a film, what can I make for X budget? And yeah, like I said. So engineer it from the budget yeah yeah like but i don't give a fuck right if i had to sell my bitcoin to make a film i sell my bitcoin to make a film and just go and do it and like

i don't give a fuck but that that is that is the goal just to make films yeah the the one the like low budget film of my life, the one that like had the biggest impact on everyone. I think of our generation was clerks. Do you remember, did you ever see the original Jay and Bob? Like I, if they spent more than 50 bucks on that,

I would be surprised. I have no idea how much Kevin Smith spent on that, but I always still blows my mind that, you know, you can put together, it proves that the story is what truly matters. And I think that's, you know, interesting. And you touched on obviously going back and saying, yeah, I wouldn't do my life,

but there's this story that came from my life and that would make a movie. And I think that any artist finds all of their inspiration in, you know, their own experiences from, from the past, because otherwise it comes across probably as contrived or, you know, being, being a poser or a LARPer or whatever they say in this, in this world. But, you know, you have to really, it has to come from a place of understanding and I would imagine with filmmaking, that's a huge part of it.

Yeah. I mean, look, there's people's life stories I want to see because they're super interesting, amazing people. But I do think a lot of filmmakers come up with concepts from things that have happened in their life and affected them. That I expect happens all the time. Like, you know, I've had drug problems, I've been through a divorce. There's plenty of things that can inspire ideas from in those two ideas alone. I think that's what happens for a lot of people. So, yeah, we'll see what happens with that, dude. So you just said you would spend all your Bitcoin to make a movie.

That attitude about like it's just money, kind of fuck it, did you always have that or did that come from the experience of basically acquiring the wealth, losing the wealth, acquiring the wealth, losing the wealth? Yeah, good question. I just don't care, kind of. I'm just a risk taker. I always have been. So I just don't really care.

I live a kind of simple life. I live in a small town called Bedford. We haven't got a particularly big house. We have a couple of holidays a year. I live in a small town called Bedford. We haven't got a particularly big house. We have a couple of holidays a year and I have everything I need. Like what more do I need? And look, I would love an Aston Martin or a Lamborghini, but I don't need it. And I'm not really one of those people who's like saving for his retirement. I expect I'll always work. So like I've got what I need. So if I did say,

say I managed to save up a hundred thousand dollars and then I wanted to make a film and it costs a hundred thousand dollars. I wouldn't think, Oh, I'm not going to do that because you know, I need that for my time. I'll be like, fuck it. I'll spend it.

And then what will I learn? I'll make enough film and can I make another film? Um, right. And I've been really like, I've been so lucky in life, Scott. I've,

I've last year I went to 18 countries and I've been to 40 countries, I think with this podcast and traveled the world, met amazing people and everything's kind of worked out okay. So yeah, I think things kind of work out okay. I love that positivity because, well, there's plenty of people who would have gone through the things you've gone through and be like, I had a shit lot in life or, or you know life is hard or it's unfair and you're like yeah life's great you know like it's all worked out so that attitude is probably what carries it

but i didn't like i had two parents who stayed together and loved each other i went to a good school um you know i live in a i live in england which is a good country I've not grown up in Eritrea or fucking I don't know shitty regions of China or East Siberia I grew up in England and I grew up to

good parents who worked hard who loved us all I've not had a hard life. I went to Venezuela dude, that place is fucked. I went to this when I was there I went into one of the barrios which is like the slums and I went to a NGO which is providing meals for 300 kids a day because they've got no money and you see it firsthand and it's shocking. So like what's, what's the worst that's going to happen to me? My very worst case scenario is I lose everything and I have to get a job in a pub or in a cafe and I still got a nice life. I still

live in England. Like I go to work, I watch TV and I can go for a run. So, so whatever happens, if you're in a country like England or the US, your basic form of life is really good. Yeah, we have a nice big pillow if we fall, for sure. I love that, but I just love that approach to life. It definitely echoes the way that I view things. And it's very refreshing and great to hear. And also probably a good time to go because I know we're up against it here.

So where can everybody follow you, see what you're up to in the future? Yeah, just if you want to listen to any of my podcasts, just search for What Bitcoin Did or Defiance. If you want to watch my films, it's youtube.com forward slash Defiance TV. And if you want to hit me up on Twitter, it's at Peter McCormack.

And thanks for having me, dude. Oh, man, thank you so much. And we're definitely going to do this again. I feel like you're the kind of person I can talk to for like four hours. But next time I'm flying to you so I can get my first in-person interview out there. Do it, dude.

Oh, well, like I'm probably going to be in Florida before you're here, though. So maybe we do it in Florida. That sounds good. I'm in. Let me know. Let's go. you're here though so maybe we do in florida it sounds good i'm in let me know