The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin BLEEDS $235B As Saylor "Gaslights" Holders

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

Bitcoin shed $235 billion in seven days and Arca CIO Jeff Dorman is calling Michael Saylor's "AI capital rotation" excuse for the crash pure "gaslighting." Strategy may have only ~5 months of cash flow left to fund STRC dividends, meaning the world's biggest Bitcoin buyer could become a steady forced seller. USDT just printed a golden cross (historically bearish for BTC), Bitcoin dominance cracked under 58% for the first time since September, and Bloomberg argues the entire industry is structurally pivoting away from speculation toward stablecoins. We break down whether Saylor IS gaslighting holders, when the forced-seller overhang breaks, and whether $60K is the cycle bottom or the trapdoor before $50K. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGEMG emigem operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. Bitcoin bled $235 billion in market cap last week, and there's zero consensus in the industry on why the selloff happened. Michael Saylor saying that it was AI-related, Jeff Dorman at Arka saying that Michael Saylor is gaslighting us, and Marcus Eelon from 10x research saying it's all about inflation and neither of them are right. We're going to unpack that. But everything else in the news today, of course, with Andrew and Tillman, but with special guest Bill Barheight from opera. Let's go.

What is up, everybody? Happy Tuesday to those of you who celebrate Tuesdays. It's great to see none of you through the screen, but to know that you're here. I've got Bill Tillman and Andrew. Good morning, gentlemen. Good morning, good morning. How is everybody doing? Hey there. Good to see you all. So, yeah, I want to start with the first story here because, Bill, I've got you and I want your opinion. I've talked to these guys a lot, obviously, about Sailor and the sell-off, but Sailor. or blamed AI for Bitcoin crash.

ARCA has one word for that nonsense. And then as I said, we have some research that says that the real problem is probably inflation and neither. So listen, there's a lot of, we'll call it Fudd for now around Siler, around what he did, what he should do, the signal from the 32 Bitcoin that was sold. I mean, how do you frame this whole thing? Well, there's a lot in there. So the 32 Bitcoin, I think he kind of had to.

to do that. I think we talked about it the last time I was on. As soon as he started marketing to retail, the whole narrative shift and the legal requirements for what he needs to be able to do, show, you know, disclose whatever changes significantly, right? Because the narrative used to be, you know, if you're in retail, just buy Bitcoin. Like that's what he would say. Like, don't buy my stock. Now, of course, he's out saying, buy my stock. And not, not MSTR, but stretch, which he basically uses then to buy Bitcoin. So I think he had no choice. via, you know, his kind of legal cohorts. But I don't think that's why Bitcoin's been selling off if that's the question.

I think Bitcoin's been range-bound for several weeks, and I think it's bottoming now. I think, you know, I think liquidity is coming back into the global system. I think maybe mid-July to mid-October, we're going to start to see, you know, moves upward, unless liquidity changes, unless, you know, war expands, which I think is probably the single biggest issue that would prevent a catalyst from moving us higher, meaning if we get clarity and we don't move higher, I can only see that being some kind of war-oriented thing. There is some truth to the fact that a lot of money is moving into AI stocks, but that tends to be different money than was coming into crypto in the previous cycles anyway.

There's a lot of money out there, okay? It's not all the same. So this idea that, oh, it's only over here or it's only over here or it's only over here, it doesn't really work for me. So I think what's been holding crypto down for a while now is two things. One, I think there's a lot of truth to the narrative from Q3 of last year that as Bitcoin hit $125,000, it was an IPO moment for the space where very, very long-term holders took to profit. And that's not unreasonable. If you're, you know, if it's newfound wealth and you want to sell 25% or something like that, that makes a lot of sense to me. And then the last thing is just the global liquidity narrative, right? I mean, we never got to reset the interest rates the way Besson wanted. And there's a lot of reasons for that in the late stage debt cycle. And I think that they know or believe now that they're unlikely to get those interest rates down. And so they're

going to bite the bullet and start implementing something that looks like quantitative easing, yield curve control, whatever, whatever FUD narrative you want to give it that basically avoids the reality that we're going to be buying our own debt, pumping money into the system and resetting expectation narrative probably closer to 4 to 5%. I do have a corollary to that, though, to ask. So I agree that liquidity is not all in the same buckets, right? There's different pools of capital, but we do have SpaceX IP. this week. OPEI just announced their intention,

Anthropic announced their intention. If all of these are going to be funded and traded as heavily as we think, that is a shit ton of liquidity, no matter where it's coming from. And I would imagine it has to come from all buckets, just to keep the market afloat with the size. Well, it depends what you mean by liquidity in this case, right?

Because bringing a new stock to market, in and of itself, doesn't, even if it's worth a trillion dollars, doesn't increase liquidity. Not everyone is, well, unless everyone is selling at the same time and everyone starts buying at the same time, I don't know if that's going to happen. But again, I've had more sucking liquidity from everything else for the FOMO to buy those three things. Well, that's what I was about to say.

I don't, I'm not convinced that that's going to take money, more money out of crypto. Crypto is tiny compared to, you know, CME. Like, CME is basically going to drive the floor on AI in the short term, right? Meaning what does the put-call ratio look like on Micron, on Vindia, on certain other shares that basically act as the benchmarks for AI? That's what smart traders are going to look at to figure out where that floor is and, you know, is the play exhausted. I don't think it is, but, you know, I don't follow it as closely as I used to. So I don't buy into the narrative that that's sucking liquidity. It's certainly sucking attention away from the broad public, but the attention's been gone from retail crypto for quite a while.

And that's what makes me believe we're chopping around the bottom because we need retail. For the price narrative, for the defy narrative, which is just booming. I've never seen so many exciting announcements happening at the same time with Neo banks and cards and, you know, Morpho raising 175 million and ABRA launching, you know, yield-bearing tokens. I mean, it's awesome what's going on. But that's not a retail narrative, right? So if you want retail, you need to give them something. And I think that something is going to be money to spend very soon. And we'll see.

But I think there's a lot of different things happening in the markets at the same time. And people like to complate things to create a story that links everything together. Yeah, so tell me an Andrews, sticking to sort of the sailor versus ARCA versus inflation. I mean, just quick takes on what you think of what Saylor did, obviously, the 32 Bitcoin sale. I think we all agree with Bill's narrative on that. But I guess maybe we can expand to the fact that he bought 1550 Bitcoin, added $100 million to his cash reserve. But in this one case, it was not increasing Bitcoin per share. It's dilutive to micro-strategy shareholders, which is where a lot of the criticism is coming from. If you zoom out, I think on the year,

it's still up like 15% or something, but this week, obviously, you know, that was not a benefit to micro strategy or strategy sharehold. I think, you know, just like I couldn't have said any of that better than Bill. I mean, obviously, when the printing press finally gets turned on, we're going to see a lot of their narrative shift. And I think there's going to be a domino effect of good news that comes down the pike. I think gas prices and the burden, that that is on everybody on a daily basis, I think is a reminder to everybody that's hard to get ahead of until the prices come down. It's going to be difficult for the normal family to focus on anything else, in my opinion, especially as travel picks up in the summer months.

There's just, there's people are, you know, there's bigger fish to fry, if you will, in most people's lives than the talk that we have about all these different macro. I think we're going to see relief when there's more money for people to spend. And I think that's coming soon. I think the AI narrative, the one thing that has floored me about the potential here is, you know, if public-private partnerships are the way in which we choose to push a lot of that liquidity out to market, I could see this as being a major portion of how the money gets distributed. the economic boom that these centers cause in the towns, you know, if you take it at scale

and then you, you know, extrapolate the race that we have, the narrative around the race of AI and how much intensive buildout is needed in order to keep up with China. You kind of have a recipe for an endless print. I mean, that bill could get beyond comprehension big. And if you're trying to find the biggest vessel to inflate into, AI is probably the one I would choose as well. And so I will say this, that the bigger AI gets and the bigger that this, you know, Web 3 of the future gets, which in a lot of cases, is just going to be agent to agent transaction. Bitcoin and crypto are going to be at the center of that. And to Bill's point earlier, I mean, we see that in defy growth and total value.

you locked on a lot of these utility-based layer ones that are coming out, for example. So it's a good time to be alive. Andrew, yeah, to the point about Sailor, you know, I would simply say that the narratives are comical at times. I don't know if it's boredom inside of retail crypto-Twitter and they have nothing else to talk about. but until somebody comes along and, you know, does what he has done and continues to do unabated, by the way, okay, sell 32 Bitcoin. Like that the level of comedy that that is in terms of how small that particular sale was.

And then the conflation associated with, okay, what can we assume out to levels and levels and levels and levels from a 32 Bitcoin sale? got frankly crazy nuts inside of our space. So I look at Sailor as somebody that has figured out a way to do what it is that he does at such an incredible scale. Until somebody comes along and does it or does it better, you know, let's stop questioning the guy. You know, he has so many levers to pull and continues to pull those levers. And I don't care how many times Peter Schiff screams at Saylor as a reply guy, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Beyond that, there is no stoppage to the lending that banks are doing with Sailor and Microstrategy.

That hasn't slowed down in any meaningful way. And I don't expect it to. So until somebody comes along and does it better or does it meaningfully differently so that there is an argument associated with sailor, the idea that he's in trouble, the idea, you know, I saw, you know, tweets that got enormous engagement associated with margin calls for sailor. Like that is just poppycocked stupidity. By the way, that would signal at 17,000 when he sold and bought back and apparently he was going to be liquidated on the way down. If you want a bottom single, they could be repeated. We had a small sale from Sailor, which he immediately bought back the next week when everybody said it was over. Yeah.

And so there's absolutely no noise, very limited noise associated with sold 32 and then bought 1,500 back at a lower price. Very, very limited commentary about that because he just makes everybody else look stupid for the past week. and then of course different parts of the media grab onto it so until yeah until otherwise until it becomes clear that somebody else has figured it out and doing it better

just stop you know stop creating narratives where they don't exist yeah so like I you know I've had the battle here kind of with I guess with Jeff Dorman from ARCA for my own personal reasons but you know he's saying like any company can raise capital at 11.5

percent bullshit. Like, no way, right? First of all. But two, like, they keep saying that either STRC, Bitcoin, or micro strategy has to be sacrificed. And, like, I've asked this question. And first of all, I have a checkered past with him. I will go out on a limb. I wrote about there.

But, I mean, he's CEO of ARCA. I was very proud when I, a CIA avoided the Luna collapse. And then I got a letter from them when Luna was $24 saying that they'd done their risk management and they were doubling down on Luna at 24. a dollar three hours after they sent the thing and blew up the entire fire. So maybe like I take issue with people who have literally the worst risk management in history discussing other people's risk management. So I will put that out there that maybe I'm biased.

But like nobody will answer for me is what happens if Bitcoin just goes up from here? Yeah, his reply is absolutely epic. I've been doing the work on micro strategy and sailor for five years. Right for three months. Do you realize the self-owned that that actually is? Five years and all the things that you thought may or may not go wrong haven't happened. But like Bill, like Bitcoin just goes up, all the stress is gone, right? I'm not saying it will, by the way, and I'm not saying that's their plan, but like the leverage reduced, the MNAV.

Yeah, sure. But no, no, no, no, I don't agree with that. Because if the price goes up, they're going to start buying more because the back you're going to open up again. because the bank's a sheep but he takes advantage of the sheep so so he's at 11 percent i think their balance sheet as about i think it's about 11 percent levered right now now in in bitcoin terms that's nothing and and so the difference is the retail narrative of stretch right so now i don't use equities for yield if i did i'd be buying stretch at 92 i i mean that's you know that's a 20 percent return on something that should be in the S&P 500.

So not stretch, but MSTR are the underlying. So, so I mean, that's a good deal, right? For a balance sheet that's 11% levered. And to explain what I just meant with the other comment, their ability to do converts is probably somewhat limited right now, just given the state of Bitcoin. I don't think it's the state of micro strategy. Okay. I think if Bitcoin hits 110,000 again, we're going to forget what we were talking about last week because that's the nature of crypto social media. We have the memory of a net. So when, you know, the memory of a net starts to focus on Bitcoin at 110,000, he's going to be able to borrow all he wants. And my guess is he'll be more than 11% leverage. But no one will be complaining because the price isn't going down. And we're all looking for somebody to blame when the price is going down because we don't know what else to do with ourselves. And so that's, you know, I think 11%, you know, it can't do peg in your tweet on that was excellent,

but I'll use the phrase to pay because I don't know how else to describe it. And it gets below the target price of 100 at an 11.5% yield. I'll take that deal. If I'm using equities as a strategy to generate yield, I'll take that deal. I bought STRC at 92 bucks on Friday. I was like, either a magnitude goes to zero or I get. 8% anti-earned the yield that I want anyways. Like, whatever.

There are some, there are, never yelled at me as you should have bought Bitcoin. I'm like, I did that too. So shut the fuck up. There's some D-Fi protocols that we use for USDAF that actually capture some of that, some of that yield. And, you know, they basically deep, DPEG temporarily as well.

And that was a great buy for us. So, so again, it's, yeah, I don't know. So again, DPEG is a crypto term. Right? It's a, I don't know. No, no, no. No, I'm agreeing with you, Bill. But like, DPEG has nothing to do with STRC.

It's a preferred security. Like, what are we talking about? Yeah, this is the stupidity of crypto Twitter. And I literally mean that. The stupidity of crypto Twitter. Oftentimes they don't know what they're talking about, but they talk about it with conviction, right? Sure.

Now, let me steal man this for a second, right? So because I have good friends that are on the other side of this, right? Like in some of them, you know. Steel man or straw man? Which one are you picking? Well, I'm going to try to basically, I won't do a good job of representing their side because they're just wrong. So it's very hard to make an argument when you know the other side is completely wrong. But, you know, their perspective is that he's created a house of cards which has to collapse on itself.

Okay. And that is mathematically incorrect. Right. It's just absolutely incorrect. And these are smart traders that I know. I mean, you know, and like I said, you've had them on so that you know who I'm talking about. And I don't know why they refuse to dig in on the math on this because it took me 10 minutes to figure out that his balance sheet is like 12, maybe tops 12. I think it's closer to 10% levered, which again, in, you know, prime brokerage world is nothing.

So, so I don't really get it. But that's the perspective of, I'm going to call it. call them haters because I do think they're generally convinced that that he could bring the whole house down and it's just it's just wrong. I think he's created unfortunately a very short fuse in by paying a dividend monthly and now I think you got approved now twice a month. Everyone's counting the reserve pool against the dividends that need to be paid and when it gets to a level that's concerning and concerning being the, you know, subjective word here, people start to freak out. I think that, you know, I saw most of the backlash when it got down to four months of dividend payouts.

You know, he could solve that problem very easily by just having a raise that he doesn't spend on Bitcoin and segregate it for dividend payouts. And then none of this, you know, no one can really cast any blame on him at that point because, They can see the runway that the plane has to land on. It's just a fear-driven mechanism based upon the fact that they're unsophisticated compared to what he is. And he's paving new way. And I completely agree the fact that he's 10% leverage. Yeah, that's just nothing.

I mean, he literally has 40% to go just to get the industry standard. And so the sky's. Yeah, I think the second half of that argument, and I'm just trying to, I'm trying to think through from their perspective is, is okay, yes, he's 11% levered, but if he has to start selling to meet those liquidity requirements you're talking about, then that puts more downward pressure on the price, which creates a spiral. That's true to a point, but it also presupposes that he's the only one interested in Bitcoin on the planet, which is obviously retarded. So, sorry, I don't, I should.

One of us, one of us. Michael Gaggleon set a precedent here by calling himself Mick Retard like three months ago. So now we say retarded. Who said that? Who said that? Who said that? He called himself Mike McClone, yeah. Oh, I see.

I see. Retards. People are calling him make retard. Yeah. Good friend. Yeah. So listen, all those guys that are, you know, quote unquote, done the work on micro strategy, they're just, they're just, they're just joan.

in to be the Michael Berry of crypto, right? They want to be right. You know, it'd be legendary if they're right, and they'd be known as the guy that called micro strategies blow up really, really early, and I was right. That's really what's behind it all. Again, it would take, I have no idea what it would take for a blowup to actually happen.

The thing that people don't understand, I think, I think the thing that people don't understand about Burry's perspective is he's got this kind of Nicholas Talibb perspective on sure if you're going to make micro bets on things blowing up relatively speaking you don't have to be right all the time yeah i mean i mean his one of the right yeah his one of his tulip's funds are killing it because they don't have to be right except for one percent of the time and it doubles funds so if if you're just betting on bitcoin to blow up, then that's a stupid my opinion. You know how you should invest.

Yeah, I was going to say, here's the one. I keep saying it, but I think that what people are not articulating isn't actually the fear that he's going to blow up. I think the underlying fear is that if the machine stops for a while, he can't buy. The bigger fear is what you said before is the idea that he's the only buyer in the market and what if it stops. I think that's the real fear that is not being articulated. I have friends who believe. I have friends who believe. I have friends who believe that he is generally the reason, the only reason that Bitcoin is up and to the right. I'm just like, say, look, he's not buying those ETFs. He wasn't the one perpetuating Warren's attacks on Bitcoin that was holding the price down that caused it to double when

Trump was elected. And so, you know, again, it's this kind of myopic, you know, easy social media headline view of what's really going on as opposed to digging in. It's not hard to dig in. you just have to do the work. Yeah. The ETS for all intents and purposes have a much, much, much bigger role in the price of Bitcoin than anything else. And you've seen that in, you know, the beginning of the year, February, March, you saw three plus billion go in.

And in April, May, up to now, you've seen more than $3 billion go out. And so what does the price? What did the price do then? Well, a little bit up. And when the price did it in, significantly down. It's it's they're they're tethered together. Tether. There's another part to that though.

Yeah, there's another part to that though. Where the financial engineering narrative is, is one that we don't like we and, hey, we're in this. We're in this because. Sure. Right. You know, these new products, whether it's, you know, gray scale five years ago or, you know, now, ETFs, they lend themselves beautifully to myriad financial. engineering products that do affect the price. But we don't really like to talk about those things much because they don't really fit our narrative of you should just, you should buy Bitcoin and

hold because the government's going to print money forever. And that has nothing to do with the financial engineering narrative. That's often driving a lot of the liquidity in these markets, just like it did when Genesis and Grayscale had their perpetual motion machine a few years ago, which blew up, right? So, so that, you know, we have to to be fair and say like that is a big part of of what's driving uh market interest in the etf products yeah i would say that black rocks etf plus their options is what's meaningfully driving the market like exactly that's i i yeah i got options have become an absolute behemoth which again very very few people in crypto retail twitter talk about very few they don't understand right exactly

Thus, your point about, you know, retarding my point about them not having a grasp of what's going on. Well, I think it's doing, Bitcoin is doing exactly what Bitcoin is designed to do and what it's done every other cycle. It's had volatility. And each cycle, it's less and less volatile because the asset is more and more mature. There's more liquidity involved. And we've seen that exact same thing. Now, the driver of the cycle is completely changed to y'all's point. I think the driver is now Wall Street driven, which is, you know, it's a lot different than a four-year cycle.

It's almost selling may go in way type mentality. And you're, you know, Bitcoin's going to be right there with everything else in that basket, unfortunately. And we've seen, I think, 3 billion plus have outflows in the ETS side of things in the last month. So it's obvious what's driving. against a net 50-something in inflows, right? And this is the same, it's the same problem that, you know, humans have with the recent bias and panic. Like, because Michael Saylor diluted stock on micro strategy for one week, it's over.

Right? Or because we have outflows for a month, it's over. But you zoom out like anyone else. I mean, here you're kind of talking about the damp and volatility. Bitcoin bear market correction drawdowns. Of course, this is easy to say before we're convinced that the bear market bottom is in. But I think we all know that, to your point,

the upside and downside of these cycles, if we believe the cycles continue, will continue to be less. We don't expect 17x upside on one move in Bitcoin over a year anymore. Maybe we get it. I have no idea. But you also can't really make the case for 85% drawdown being normal, right? Yeah.

Yeah, if you begin to connect sort of, traditional financial market data to Bitcoin, which we probably should do at this point, given the fact that it's interwoven into the likes of ETF, BlackRock, and options, and all those things. Think about broader markets over the past three to five years, right? So everybody on TV wants to talk about the next recession, the next downturn, this is the catalyst, this is going to happen. And yet the S&P is effectively up about 20% year over year for the, for the,

the last five years and we go from we're at 4,000 and all these bad things are going to happen. The next thing you look up, we're at 7,500. And every time there's a dip, at most, it's a 5% dip, but everybody just shovels money into whatever has dipped. So, you know, if we get, you know, 23 to 27% upside annualized over the next three to five years on Bitcoin, everybody that has been in Bitcoin up until this point will have. hate it they will hate it but people that don't hate it and just decide to sit in it are gonna make out huge right that's a plus 100% return like you know the volatility is just common sense right so

we went from a world where uh you know when bitcoin was worth a billion dollars you had bitmex perps that you could buy up to 100x that would the market 40% a week because, you know, you would basically wind the rubber band up so tight on what was obviously a very small asset class. I've had dinner with family offices that are holding more than the entire market was worth back in those days, right? So, so obviously those oscillators would unwind. They would cause, you know, price drop. It would get to the point where, you know, they were too far unwound the other way and they would rebound again. And that was offset by the fact that there was just growing demand.

And that oscillator of, you know, 100x leverage would become less and less important as the demand got higher to make the market cap higher. Right. So basically you end up like this as you're going up. But when you get to a trillion dollars, those oscillators can have the same impact, right? on the entire asset class. It's not possible anymore. And what does that mean in English? It means lower volatility.

And so it's just common sense, right? If it, look, if for some reason, you know, it breaks and it does go to a billion again, you know, so be it. But it can only happen because you've got 50 million people who stop believing at the same time, basically. Well, I just think you just beautifully explain to me the engineering beauty of Bitcoin itself because that rubber band is the strongest rubber band man's ever created in terms of managing volatility. And that is the intrinsic values. And that's why people who understand the asset of volatility realize that to your point,

I mean, to be able to play an asset up at a 45 degree angle with inflation, and for it to be able to provide you tremendous range in that volatility. I mean, that's a dream come true, especially when you can put as many dollars into that asset as you can possibly imagine without incremental overhead expansion costs, without any burden of ownership, without any cost to carry. I mean, it's just a tremendous vehicle, unbelievable. Bill, anything else on your mind before I let you go? we kind of talked about Saylor and the general, but I mean, you guys have been building out

incredible things. I loved your point about Defi exploding because the public perception has been that defy is failing. So retail is getting washed by Defi, but institutes are adopting it at a historic rate. It's kind of a really interesting kind of a high polarity there. Maybe because a lot of it's happening outside the U.S., I'm not sure. But my, you know, Twitter feed is just ballooned with all kinds of daily announcements on card products and neobanks and new yield products and new vaults. So I'm in Dallas for the yearly RIA crypto event. This is 60 or I'm doing it, I think, or 50 or something. And most of my talk today is going to be about defy.

And it went from what's Bitcoin and why should I care five years ago to, you know, literally talking to wealth managers about defy now and how Aver can basically help them, you know, navigate the space. It's remarkable and it's real. I mean, these are amazing product innovations that I'm just seeing nonstop. And obviously the Morpho announcement is probably the biggest one of the day raising 175 million, which is, which is, you know, a function of the product uptake they've had. I think they're managing 11 billion or 12 billion in collateral now. And that's at depressed prices, right? So, so, you know, I wouldn't be surprised that they're at 20 billion by the of the year just on price increases, right? So, so, so, so, you know, in that regard, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's very exciting to me. How much of the conversation is centered around RWA's and DFI's and DFI and expansion into that? Yeah, a lot of interest in in tokenization right now is, is, is like, that's part and parcel to the defy narrative, meaning it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, I, I, I, I want to have tokenized equities. I want to have tokenized money market funds. I think the banks, you know, want to compete with each other. And so I think you're going to see a lot of tokenized money market funds make their way into RIAs. And that's going to be the beginning of all of these spaces converging, meaning banking, wealth management, private clients, institutional primes. They're all going to look like each other in five years because once everything is tokenized

and everything's defy-based, what's the difference? right and and people are starting to get that uh and it's this whole tokenization narrative is is again largely black rock driven but kudos to them for getting it uh is definitely a topic of interest here i would say defy and tokenization are the two big kind of flavors of the month right now yeah i definitely think that tokenization r wa are definitely the biggest flavor of the month and the people who get it know that that's the defy story and the people who don't are soon to know that that's a defy story. Everybody talks about tokenizing it bit, you know, faster and cheaper and obviously as plumbing.

They don't realize that defy is what's going to open the door to actually be able to put those things to work. Right? That's right. The most important tokenized real world asset right now is Bitcoin. And wrapped Bitcoin drives defy. You know, and so it's a pain in the ass to deal with. But it showed us that, okay, these are the nuances and the complexities of dealing with wrapped anything, whether it's an equity or Bitcoin or real estate or fund.

It's all complex. And we all get that now. I think Circle announced their own wrapped Bitcoin today or yesterday, didn't they? I just kind of been passing in the news. I didn't pull up. There's like 10 of them now. And when Bitcoin got out of the space, it really opened the door. Coinbase has been trying to corner that.

market. Very unhappy with how they've done it. There's another show, but luckily there's a lot of competition now. I didn't know. Quay Mason Circle are partners, but Circle launching a competitive product. They did a deal that Circle

would gladly unwind. If they could. I mean, they have to give like what 40% of their revenue. I wouldn't call that a partnership. I would, you know, but it doesn't matter. What would you call it? I'm just kidding. extortion sorry

willing extortion yeah exactly you can't you can't be mad at somebody for striking a good deal no I'm from New York I mean you know it's Rico

we admit to Rico so yeah yeah he's going to pick up this bag and it better be out front and we're going to you know wrapped in newspaper

delivered to their door right. All right, Bill. We always appreciate having you, man. I know totally where you are and you got other things to do. Everybody give Bill a follow-up, as always, man, and it's been great. Thank you so much. All right. Good to see you guys. Thanks, Bill. All right. I want to talk to you two guys about bottom-ticking the shit out of Bitcoin. I woke up. I was like, oh, we bought under 60. yeah 59 111 yeah I'm not I'm kind of mad because I feel like I've done manually I would have gotten like 59 70 yeah it's uh you know all the talk about tokenization um all the talk about defy you know at some point

you know those buzzwords are great but the reality is it just leads to 24 7 trading um and if if you don't if you're not using tools like this that do this, that, that's impossible. It's literally impossible to do on your own. I mean, the narratives on Friday associated with Bitcoin price, nobody wanted to buy it at 59. Like everybody and their brother thought it was going down further. Literally, the most ardent believers who had been in this space for a decade, It's going down further.

And so the ability to, you know, algorithmically automated, pull off a trade like that is just, I mean, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. Bitcoin has enough upside attached to it that you can de-risk it and still be really happy. And so the derisking is the part that people really mess up most of the time. It's like when price moves asymmetrically one way or another, that creates, that volatility creates opportunity. And it was just like what Bill was saying, the channeling and the breadth and the width of that volatility is how you harness energy and how you make trades like the blue arrow at the very bottom of that giant red candle. And then you took a little profits at the purple arrow at the top of that green candle. So, you know, what is that?

Well, that's just being available when those opportunities present themselves and having a plan in place that can execute without you sitting in front of your computer. And that's what we do very well at Archpublic is we can put these recipes together, if you will, for whatever you want. Your will will will be represented in the market. And when the conditions meet your will, then you won't take trades. So it's something that if you haven't experienced before, it's exceptionally empowering and makes you really look at the market very differently. That's what the feedback over the last week has been in particular with, you know, we've had kind of an influx of new customers. And the common thread in their feedback has been, boy, I thought we were going higher when we were in the 80s and I was ready to load the boat. and I'm so glad that I wasn't able to because I was prudent about my,

and measured about my approach because of the software. And so that's the intention is to not let the conditions of the market drive you into an emotional state that then leads you into a decision. Those decisions most of the time are bad ones. And if they're not, they can even be worse because there's an old age, you know, adage that my dad used to tell me and my granddad used to tell me is, The worst trade is a trade that you make money on that's a bad trade. Because then you convince yourself that bad trades will make you money and you lose a lot of money going forward.

So you've got to have a strategy and you've got to deploy it without emotion. Yeah, there is a, you know, the best way to say it about what we're doing at Archpublic right now is now imagine those types of trades on equities, right? So we're in a position. Yeah. Yeah, we're in a position where we're going to release some new products that innovate in the space of equity. So whether it's Tesla or Nvidia or Microstrategy itself, right? The ability to do what you just saw on those charts with equities is coming to our public. And again, the scale and broadening, you know, both depth and breadth of what we do is about to move meaningfully up into the right.

And we're doing this in a lot of ways because our customers have been asking for it. Can we do this in other areas? We say, yeah, yeah, let's make it happen. And it's the right time, too, because customers are hearing about agentic trading in other spaces, which is really just a version of, hey, here's a sandbox. And if you want to build your own Python weird stuff, go ahead and do that. And nobody knows how to do that. So we give them tools and then walk them through with our customer service division and put them in a place where they can benefit from all this innovation.

But then at the same time, you know, broadening into additional markets as those markets are on the cusp of going 24-7. Like, Scott, you put out a tweet either today or earlier, like, okay, you know, imagine 24-7, like, 24-7 is coming to all of this stuff. And if you aren't comfortable with having tools do this for you, whether there's volume or not overnight or on weekends, at some point there will be. At some point there will be movements. At some point there will be these opportunities. And you have to be able to use tools to take advantage of them. And so we're preparing people. We're giving people the understanding and the opportunity to use tools.

the way that they want to use them to get the outcomes that they want. And so, yeah, we're moving as fast as we can into other markets. I giggle because he said, you know, you have to have tools that do this for you. And in my era, we used to call people tools. And then I grabbed at you, everybody at Archpublic's a tool. The way our mind works is something to the whole. You have a bunch of tools handling this. for you guys.

Yeah, it's, um, listen, being on the edge of, of innovation is not easy. It's difficult. Um, you know,

all, all credit to Tillman for the creation of, of these tools and the, the uptake of them in the pace and speed that it's actually happened. You know, we're above 25,000 users at this point. Uh, our equities work will,

will really explode that. To be fair, that particular ocean of users and need is, you know, immeasurably larger than the pond that is crypto that we've been doing things in. So, yeah, the scale is going to grow. And again, two years from now, this type of stuff is going to be ubiquitous everywhere. You know, we talk to a lot of firms, a lot of exchanges, a lot of brokerages. And they want this event. for their customers. They really do because their customers want it and need it. Well, I mean, if you just ask yourself, start the journey with a simple question.

Everyone talks about Bitcoin as having this feature called volatility. And they talk about yield farming and yield harvesting and all of these things. Ask yourself, what are you doing to take advantage? Are you deploying a strategy that takes advantage of the volatility, Bitcoin. And the only way to do that is to respond when the volatility takes place. And if you're not a professional trader and don't sit in front of your computer all day waiting for those events to take place, systematically engineering software to take advantage of them for you when you're not at the computer is going to be more and more

important, to Andrew's point. Going forward, when you have real world assets being traded 24-7 across defy markets, central crypto exchanges, and your connected brokerage of choice on the traditional side, that's a lot to manage. And technology is going to stand in the gap and really help you manage it and help you build a prudent strategy that then you can deploy and then oversee, and it can be completely at your will and be user-driven. So that's what we're kind of at the forefront of. Well, and the current movement is that there are a couple of brokerages that want to teach you agentic trading, but it's only on their platform.

It's not platform agnostic, right? So we're on a journey to be completely platform agnostic. We work a bunch of different crypto exchanges, some traditional changes, Robin Hood and the like and some more that we've got coming. There's real value in that, extreme value in that. versus an individual exchange like Public that says, we've got some agentic tools now that you can use. Well, you know, stuff that is proprietary, let's call it, is not great, not awesome. You want something that's agnostic as it relates to the platforms that it deals with. And that's what we do.

Yeah, perfect. And there it is, archpublic.com. You guys can go check it out yourselves. I can't wait for equities. I need to get the tax lost harvesting, firing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got to do that yesterday.

Yeah, it's a, you know, we're going to go right back up to 80 and I'll be like, Gotcha. We, we. That means we're one 50, guys. It is, you know, again, a testament to Tillman and all of our dev guys. Like the amount of product that we put out. out. We haven't even really talked on this podcast about our tax loss harvesting tool. That's an extraordinary tool that, again, meaningfully reduces slippage. Does the tax loss harvesting for you?

Again, you've got to deal with your accountant and talk about your cost basis and all that stuff. That's super important. But then the actual execution of those trades are done algorithmically energetically in a way that is, you know, again, way ahead of where we are, as opposed to, well, I bought it at 82 and now it's at 63. I think I should tax loss harvest. Click. Those thoughts are very, very difficult to walk through on your own and then take action on your own. Having tools that do it that show you what it's going to look like before you do it. It's in value. Right? It's invaluable. That's just another thing that we've released, you know? The tools that are going to show us what it looks like before we do it?

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, Josh is a principal tool. I'm not remember when the calls used to be to like you and Tillman. If you call customer service, you get banned. There's better people than us today. More than other people than us that are in. Yeah, we all know our strengths. All right, guys. Public.com. Yeah, I can't wait for equities and to tax loss harvesting, but the execution is just outstanding.

I mean, just peeking over and seeing an alert go off that you bought Bitcoin under 60,000 is just absurd. 100%, yeah. You guys can do it for free. So stop. That's all we got for you. See you guys next Tuesday. Thank you guys.

Bye.