The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin, Boomer rocks, and flying money with Mark Yusko

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

A fan favorite from his first appearance on the podcast, Mark Yusko returned for round 2 to discuss Bitcoin’s epic price appreciation. From schmuck insurance to boomer rocks to flying money, this episode will raise your Bitcoin conviction at least two notches higher no matter where you’re at. Yusko’s epic career in finance continues to race ahead of the curve, making this an episode not to be missed, plus he is the only guest to actually howl on the show. Follow Mark Yusko on Twitter, @MarkYusko. In this episode, Melker and Yusko discuss a range of topics including: Halvings + human emotions = cycles Energy converted to value Financial natural selection Satoshis instead of Bitcoin Zero is off the table Being wrong vs staying wrong Boomer rocks Flying money Concentration vs diversification Group stink Opting out of systemic devaluation ---- NEXO Try Nexo’s full-suite, instant crypto banking service, featuring: Savings accounts with up to 12% interest on crypto, stablecoins & fiat Flexible crypto-backed credit lines at just 5.9% APR An exchange with 75+ crypto and fiat pairs and best-price guarantee All this and more wrapped up in a single Nexo Wallet. Start banking at nexo.io Or download the app on Google Play or the App Store.   ---- Legacy of Dead  This episode was brought to you by Bitcasino. The worlds leading Bitcoin-led online casino and crypto-centric gaming destination. Wager your way into a world of opportunity, with the ultimate Fun, Fast and Fair crypto-casino experience.  Deposit, wager, and withdraw in real-time with a host of top cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin (BTC), Ethereum (ETH), LiteCoin (LTC), Tether (USDT), TRON (TRX), Ripple (XRP), and more!  Use the promo link bitcasino.io/scott, to unlock your 200 FREE SPINS in the Legacy of Dead Promotion. –––– COSMOS Visit cosmos.network to learn about the Cosmos Hub and how the $ATOM can connect every blockchain. Cosmos is the port city connecting chains like Bitcoin and Ethereum to ensure your liquidity on any chain can be used anywhere. Find new staking opportunities, applications, or build your own parachain at cosmos.network. https://cosmos.network ---- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co ---- Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members

What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast. I first interviewed today's guests all the way back in April of 2020, when Bitcoin was well below $10,000 and the entire world seemed to be melting down. At the time, Mark was convinced that the government wasn't acting in the best financial interest of the people and that Bitcoin was a sound solution to opt out of that broken system. We're back today, and I think it's safe to say that Mark's assessment was correct. The price of Bitcoin is over $50,000, and adoption has accelerated at breakneck speed. Honestly, it's even taken me by surprise, and I'm a mega bull. So we'll see what Mark has to say about that. Obviously, not only does Mark understand emerging markets, but his

expertise runs much farther and wider than just cryptocurrency. He's the founder, CEO, chief investment officer of Morgan Creek Capital Management, plus a friend of the Wolf team. And I can't wait to dig into his thoughts on what is really going on in the markets right now. He's also the only guest that ever made me howl at the end of an episode, literally. So Mark, thanks so much for coming on a second time. No, thanks for having me. Really excited to be here.

So before we get into the questions, once again, you're listening to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, where twice a week, I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, art, music, sports, politics, anyone with a good story to tell. This podcast is powered by my friends at BlockWorks, the fastest growing media company in the digital asset space. You can check out blockworks.co for access to the highest quality information in crypto and beyond. And if you like the podcast and follow me on Twitter, please check out my website, my YouTube, all of the things that I have. You can find all of that at thewolfofallstreets.io. So to get into the episode, as I

said in the intro, last time we spoke, Bitcoin was under 10,000. It had actually recently just dipped below 4,000. Clearly, you've been proven right, yet the market is currently in a panic again because Bitcoin is correcting slightly. Has your conviction changed at all since our below 4,000. Clearly, you've been proven right, yet the market is currently in a panic again because Bitcoin is correcting slightly. Has your conviction changed at all since our last conversation or basically same, same? No, look, I appreciate the kind words and the acknowledgement. It's amazing that that was a year ago. It feels like 10 years ago. It does. As we were talking before we got on the show, I just made my first trip in over a year ago. It feels like 10 years ago. It does. We were talking before we got on the show, you know, I just, just made my first trip in over a year. I went out to San Francisco and, and it was,

it was fine. Right. I mean, I've, I've, I've had the virus, so I feel pretty invincible, which is probably not a good way to feel, but it was good. And it was nice to be out and meet with people and go to restaurants. And so life is getting back to normal. But what isn't normal, Scott, what is just not normal is the government's just blatant disregard for money. And, you know, we talk now in these trillion numbers. And as we talked last time, right, a trillion, right? You and I would have to sit here for 31,710 years, which would be pleasant to talk. But after a while, it would get old, 31,000 years. And we'd have to spend a dollar a second to get to one trillion.

Now, they just threw out $1.9 trillion. Although, here's the weird thing. I figure what, there's 360 million people in the country. Let's say half of those are eligible for the stimulus check, because some are too young, some have too much income. So let's call it half. You do the math, multiply by the stimulus check, get about $300 billion. Where'd the other $1.6 trillion go? So that's the first thing to worry about,

is where's all the money going? And now they're talking about $3 more trillion, with a T, for fiscal stimulus. And you ask if my conviction is still high. My conviction on blockchain technology, on cryptocurrency broadly, on Bitcoin specifically, on DeFi, all of those convictions just keeps getting stronger every day because we keep moving along this technological adoption curve. And the S-curve for Bitcoin, we're just at the knee of the curve. We've gone from the innovators to the early adopters to maybe, maybe the beginning of the mass adoption. But people want to say, oh, it's the end, or oh, there's this huge correction. I got in a Twitter fight, which I should never do, but I got in a Twitter fight with somebody. So hard.

Yeah, I should just block, right? I think you and I have talked about this. The best advice I ever got when I came to Twitter was block early and often. Yep, we have talked about that. No time for troll, no time for hate, no time for disrespect. But this guy, he's like, it's going to zero. It's going to zero. I'm going, look, literally, and I put up pictures of his tweets from 2013, 2017, 2020, saying Bitcoin is going to zero. I'm like, at some point, right, you have to acknowledge, okay, maybe I'm missing something.

Because look, being wrong, never a problem. I'm wrong all the time. Ask my wife, she'll tell you. Okay. Staying wrong is a problem. And the information that we all look at objectively, if we just look at data in terms of adoption, wallets, and blocks, and transactions, and just use cases for these technological innovations just keeps rising. So fundamentally, my conviction is incredibly strong. Now, is this a normal corrective pattern in price? Absolutely. And you and I talk about this, and you talk about it with your other guests. Look, price is volatile, right? I mean, as John Burbank says best, price is a liar. Value is more stable, but the price rarely reflects the

value of anything. It know, it swings like a pendulum from side to side, from extreme to extreme. So to your point, neither one of us, when we talked a year ago, thought we'd be sitting here a year out talking about 50,000 or 60,000 or 40,000 or 30,000. You know, it was a pretty scary time back in April of 2020. And I think we both had conviction that things were going to recover, but I don't know that we had really thought through where in the cyclical bull market we might be. However, if you step back and look at whether it's stock to flow or whether the original parabolic model based on Metcalfe's law or, you know, what's now I'm forgetting the guy's name, but Crane, not Crane Island. Oh, shoot. It'll come to me. But, you

know, he's done a lot of great work on on the whole Metcalfe's law phenomenon. And if you just look at that, we knew we'd be somewhere about halfway through the bull market at this point. Right. Probably end up, you know, call it July, August, September of this year with that that, you know, crescendo. Now, where we go in that crescendo, we'll probably talk about, but that's a long answer to your simple question of how's it going. But I think that that's really accurate

and important to note that price does not reflect value, which you and I have talked about before, so the ISA and also that conviction should not be dependent on price, right? Oh my gosh, I'm tweeting that tonight. I'm hashtagging that. That is awesome. I like it. Go for it. I really think that is true. I want to touch on something else that you said, because I find it so interesting about this person you had the Twitter fight with, because clearly they had an emotional

feeling about Bitcoin that was not going to change regardless of the information. I think it's actually interesting to note that some of the biggest Bitcoin bulls now were detractors early, including Michael Saylor, right? So isn't it really a sign of emotional intelligence and maturity that you can have, I guess, you know, strong opinions loosely held and you can actually change when presented with new information? Oh, come on. I mean, all of that is axiomatically true and sounds really good when you say it that way. But Lord Keynes, right, is a perfect example. He gave a speech, gave a similar speech a week later. And the guy in the front row said, Lord Keynes, last week you said the exact opposite. He said, yeah, when the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do,

sir? And the idea that you won't change your mind, particularly when it's an emotional, not intellectual call, when there's new information presented, just makes no sense to me. And look, I put myself in that same category in that I came into this very skeptical. In fact, everybody I know that I respect came into this world very skeptical because it was, to borrow a good British term, it was rather dodgy, you know, from 2009 to 2013. And it really was just starting to move beyond the cypherpunks and the Silk Roads. And look, I think we might have talked about this last time, but all technology starts on the fringe. And I joke that I've lived my whole life hanging out with the bad guys. And they'd be like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, if you think about it, I've spent my whole career investing in innovative technology. And innovation always starts at the fringe. First person to have a pager, drug dealers. First person to use the internet, porn. First people to use Bitcoin, drugs. Today, cannabis uses Bitcoin. Why? Because they can't get into the main banking system. And that's what incumbents do. Incumbents create moats through regulation, which they bri back to any technological innovation, people use it out of necessity.

And therefore, in those early days of cryptocurrency, and particularly Bitcoin, there weren't a lot of normalized use cases because people didn't understand it. And yet, those who got exposed to it, and I got exposed to it through a good friend, Dan Moorhead. And I think I told you the story, right? I had a chance to invest in his Bitcoin fund or his blockchain infrastructure fund. And I made lots of money investing in infrastructure, whether it was Google, whether it was Yahoo, whether it was eBay, which my board laughed at me. You're going to invest in a garage sale company? It might be bigger than garage sales, maybe. Or payments, right? It's like, ah, I got Visa and MasterCard. What do I need electronic payments for?

That square thing or, you know, so, or PayPal. Again, pretty good things. So the, I went down the wrong, a different rabbit hole. I've lost my train of thought. But no, but I got infrastructure. I immediately got infrastructure. And look, no one's complaining.

Those Pantera funds, they're up 11, 12, 13x, whatever. But I should have put the money in the Bitcoin fund because that's up 574x, not 574%, 574x. But why didn't I? Well, I was not a cypherpunk. I was not selling drugs on Silk Road. I was not exposed to the use cases. And I was pretty skeptical, right, to be honest. And more importantly, I let my emotional response to something that happened a few months later. And again, I think we talked about this. I wrote one paragraph, not a long paragraph, just one paragraph, 40-page letter on why I thought Bitcoin might be an interesting, what I quoted, or what I deemed a special situation investment for a diversified portfolio. Again, don't put all your portfolio in it, but try it. And I joke, the next paragraph was about Saudi equities, which with the benefit of hindsight,

is way more controversial. I mean, it's not even close. But I had people saying, look, we'll fire you as our advisor if you don't stop talking about that stupid stuff. And so I did what a business person would do. I said, OK, fine. We'll talk about it. And to your point about price shouldn't impact conviction, I think is such great insight because price did impact my feelings because I hadn't formed a conviction yet. But we went from 500 in April to 175 by September. And that price movement made me say emotionally, oh, those guys were right. See, I don't need to pay attention. And it's dead. And then it went from 175 to 300 to 500 again, then got back to 1,000. I'm like, oh, wait a second. And again, price shouldn't influence. But what that price movement did, it didn't change my conviction because I had no conviction at that point. But what it did is it made me do the work.

And that's the key to all of this, is everyone I know that I respect that started skeptical, then did the work, and is now wildly bullish. And I probably shouldn't even use wildly, just bullish, right? You don't have to be wildly bullish. You just have to be bullish. And they're bullish not on price. They're bullish on the technology. They're bullish on the innovation. They're bullish on the evolution, the financial evolution. I call it financial natural selection. If you're not scared about what's happening to our currency, and not just our currency, to the euro, to the yen, to all the developed market currencies, if you're not scared by that, you're not paying attention.

And I talked about this right before we talked. And I had done my 10 surprises for the year, and not right before, but in January that year. And in that, I said, look, my bonus surprise was Bitcoin is likely to have a really good year. Now, I didn't think it was going to be up 300%. Don't get me wrong. I thought it would have a really good year. But what I said was not necessarily because Bitcoin will make any great strides, but because the dollar, the fiat, will get destroyed. And that's the whole issue around money illusion. People look at the stock market.

Oh, stocks are up. Well, they're only up if you denominate them in a depreciating currency, the dollar. If I denominate stocks in gold, they currency, the dollar. If I denominate stocks in gold, they're not up over the last three years. If I denominate them in Bitcoin, it's getting crushed. And Bitcoin exists as Bitcoin. People say one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin. But that's not the way you and I do it. We buy it in dollars. Someone in Germany buys it in euros. Someone in Japan buys it in yen. Someone in Venezuela, hopefully they don't buy it in boulevards.

Hopefully they just buy it with something else and get out of the boulevard. So that price is relative to something else. And what we are all relative to is a devaluing, depreciating asset, because governments, when pressed throughout history, will always devalue their currency. They will always devalue their currency because it is the only way out. And this idea that somehow we're going to grow our way out of the debt problems that we have, not going to happen. Yeah, it's absurd. Yeah.

I mean, in all fairness, skepticism about Bitcoin in the early 2010s was probably a reasonable approach and skepticism to everything, especially when you're approaching things on the fringe is a reasonable approach. And at that time, the payments narrative really kind of was the core narrative, right? I mean, you were seeing what was happening on Silk Road, but it was invented as peer-to-peer cash. So I think that the reason that so many people become more bullish when they've done the work now, and largely in the last year, is because of what you just stated. So you had sort of the approach to Bitcoin back then, which would cause

skepticism and doubt. And now, if you still have that, when you see this sort of store value, gold 2.0, whatever you want to call it, really solidifying. That I don't understand. No, look, I'm right there with you. And that's such an important point that there are some that look at it and say, well, the white paper says a peer-to-peer cash network, and that's not what this is. Well, okay. But technology can change, right? There are lots of examples. History is replete with examples where something was invented for one thing and then found its best use case in doing something else. Lots of examples of that. You know, how about, my favorite actually is artificial sweetener, aspartame.

What was it invented for? I don't even know. This is awesome. This is awesome. So they were exploding bombs, ordinances in these rooms to test them. And the generals and stuff would walk in and they'd notice that it tasted sweet, right? There was this film in the air, particles in the air. I go, that tastes sweet. And I wonder why that is. So chemists kind of looked at it and said, oh, that's the formaldehyde that when it implodes, one of the, I don't remember if it's one of the H's or one of the O's, it doesn't really matter. I think it's one of the H's gets blown off and that is, uh, aspartame. And so remind me to avoid that. Well, here, that's the crazy thing. That's why they say, if you drink too much diet soda, you get tip of the tongue disease because formaldehyde. Okay. When it,de, when you drink too much, it goes into your of people use it, but it came from something else. And so I think this idea that Bitcoin must be bad because it wasn't, you know, Satoshi's

original vision, that's silly. The second thing is when we think about money, right? Money has a lot of different functions, right? It can be a medium of exchange, right? Money has a lot of different functions, right? It can be a medium of exchange, right? You and I could exchange money for goods and services. It can be a store of value unless there is an entity, usually a government, that can create more of it by fiat. And so if you look at the history of money, and it's interesting because I literally just got back from this trip to San Francisco, my first trip in over a year. And I went out there to help film basically a history of Bitcoin and history of money series that some guys are putting together. And I think

it's going to be amazing. And my job was episode one, kind of explain the history of money. So I did a lot of research on the history of money and how coins were created and how Bitcoin is an evolution of that. And money is really interesting. It's been around for thousands of years. Literally, there have been coins for thousands of years. And when you got wealthy and you had too many coins, you couldn't carry them around. Your donkey or your mule or your camel got tired of carrying those big saxo coins. So you deposit them in a bank, and they would give you a certificate that turned into paper money, or as the Chinese,

the original Tsang dynasty called it flying money. Because if you put it down outside and didn't pay attention, it would fly away, unlike coins. And what's interesting is when money was based on a commodity, gold or silver, had a pretty good track record. I say, the history of commodity money is pretty solid, pun intended. But when we decoupled from that in the 70s and went to this fiat standard, history is not so good. And if you look in the history of paper currencies, there have been 775 paper currencies in the history of the world, three quarters of them no longer exist. It's a pretty bad track record. And the oldest, the pound sterling, you know, it's 380-ish years old, used to get you a pound of sterling silver, hence the term pound note. Today, it takes 174 pounds of sterling silver

to get a pound note, which is a devaluation of the currency. So every empire in history has become profligate spenders, has concentrated the wealth in the cronies, and then devalued the currency. That is the dictator playbook. It has gone on forever and ever and ever. It's going on right now in front of our eyes. And somebody tweeted this yesterday. I can't remember who it was, but oh, it was Lopp. I love Lopp. And he tweeted that, hey, y'all, you are the frog being boiled if you're just not paying attention. And the problem with that is at some point, you literally become paralyzed. The frog becomes paralyzed and can't hop out. And that water is getting nice and hot. And it's getting dangerously close to that opt-out stage, which we talked about

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I miss most people still don't understand this, right? I do think that we've seen a certain percentage of the population that obviously had to raise the obvious question of, keep printing money. What does that mean? Why do I pay rent? Why do I pay taxes? You know, these obvious sort of questions that come up. And as you say, this has happened throughout history. But in the United States, we've never seen 40% of the circulating money printed in one year, which we've seen in the last year. So this isn't a small problem. And it's gotten dramatically worse since we spoke last time and pegged it as a huge problem. Oh, look, Scott, if I actually thought about it, like if we just sat here and thought about it, I would actually get a little scared because this construct that we can decouple from the reality that money, again, currency, has to be tethered to some

ultimate reality. This MMT movement is such an assault on logic. It's an assault on truth. It's an assault on logic. It's an assault on truth. It's an assault on decency. It's an assault on the hard work of the average person. Look, if creating wealth was as simple as printing money, wouldn't everybody do it? Wouldn't every country just print money? So that's not how wealth is created. Wealth is created by doing this, by exchanging value, by getting up in the morning, feeding yourself some energy, and going out and adding value to the world. All of life is about converting energy to value, which is why Bitcoin is awesome, because it turns energy into value that can then be stored and transferred anywhere instantaneously without loss or diminution. But this idea that governments in particular, one, are good at making allocation decisions, history does not support that, that they act in the interest of their constituents, again, history does not support that. And that they have used the COVID crisis

as a shield for justifying this insanity of MMT, modern monetary theory, which there's nothing modern about it. There's nothing monetary and it ain't no theory. It's just BS. And I, every time, I don't even want to call her Professor Kelton, but every time she comes on, my skin crawls. I literally go crazy because I can't handle the fact that we're propagandizing this idea that we, the government, by either giving you money, although they didn't give you very much relative to what they gave their cronies, again, $300 billion, $1.6 trillion, who got the better deal. And this idea that, I mean, look, I live in North Carolina, we have great roads and they got all these beautiful flowers next to the roads. Awesome. And somebody is making a lot of money because that's money from the government gets handed to

them, graft and corruption. But I'd be okay with a little less nice roads and a little more money for head start so we can teach our kids to read so they don't end up in prison because the number one indicator of whether you go to prison is your score on the second grade reading test full stop they build prisons in this country based on county scores on the second grade reading test. Crazy. We could fix that actually. And I actually feel really strongly about that one. But this idea that we are going to be stuck in this treadmill of increasing the money supply as you so appropriately summed up is very frightening. And I said, if you're not scared, you're just not paying attention. But that's the problem. The average person is working hard. They're trying to get through the

crisis. They're trying to get their job back. They're trying to get their business back. You know, how many businesses have shuttered? How many people lost their livelihood? While the people that make the rules, their jobs weren't threatened, their retirement savings weren't threatened, their healthcare wasn't threatened. I don't know. The incentives just don't line up. But there's an end game. You talk about the increasing speed of the hamster on the wheel with the money printing. I mean, eventually that wheel is going to pop off and go off the spokes and it's- Well, it is. Look, look, look. Think about it, right? Bitcoin from sub 10 to over 50 in less than a year, the hamster wheel is running on the ground. I mean, that is an unbelievable thought. And we've all seen the quotes, right? You know, how did you go bankrupt? Slowly at first and then all at once. Or, you know, how do these things happen? Well, they happen slowly at first

and then all at once. And what I think is really interesting is, I think we talked last time about, you know, Bitcoin gold equivalents, right? That was my original kind of premise when people first started saying, Mark, you're an idiot. And that's been a common refrain for a long time. And sometimes it's true, but here it's just not true. It's just that I've done that work, not ahead of everybody. There are plenty of OGs that are way better off than I am and are way earlier. But I was that skeptic, that turned supporter because I did the work earlier than many. And there's some that still haven't done the work, but they will. And but the issue is the people still want to say, oh, no, you're an idiot because you're being bamboozled by this.

No, it's just math. If we think about gold, there's $8 trillion of it in the world. And now all of that doesn't count in the sense that there's a portion that's in jewelry and that's been lost or stolen. Asteroids. Asteroids. But the monetary value of gold, give or take, is about $2.6 trillion. And let's say that's plus or minus a couple hundred billion. It's kind of like when the Saudis took Aramco public and the underwriters were saying,

well, the value is somewhere between 1.2 and 2 trillion. Like within $800 billion, you can't get a little better estimate of its value. But let's call it $2.6 trillion. So at $2.6 trillion, we're about 40% of the way to Bitcoin gold equivalents. And that's the monetary part. Now, if we go beyond that, so that would mean at another 150%, we'd be somewhere in the, you know, $200,000-ish. And, you know, $200,000, that begins to, I think, reflect a good representation of the use case that we've found, right? Which gold has been a store of value for 5,000 years. It's been perfect. One ounce by the fine man suit,

suit of armor, suit during the American Revolution, Savile Row today. That's perfect store of value. Now, gold suffers from a lot of defects. It has a lot of great things, but it suffers from defects. It's heavy.

It's hard to transport. I can't email it. It's hard to transport. I can't email it. It's hard to divide. Breaking a bar of gold is really hard to give you half of it. So Bitcoin has all of the elements that are positive gold, and then it has some extra elements like divisibility to eight decimal points. I changed my Twitter handle to at Mark Yusko, hashtag 2.1 quadrillion. And people are like, what is that? That's how many Satoshis. Someday we're not going to talk about Bitcoin. We're going to talk about Satoshis. And Satoshis will be the unit of measure. And there aren't 21 million, they're 2.1 quadrillion. That's plenty for everybody to have some Satoshis. So that idea of divisibility and transferability for Bitcoin is better.

So we found that great use case. that other $6 trillion of gold in jewelry and bars and stuff is actually used, again, as a store of value or as a store of wealth. So could Bitcoin then achieve that level? Not just a monetary use, but a pure store of wealth and value use. Yep, it could. And that's where the original, Raoul Pal wrote the first one saying that was a million dollars a coin. I kind of adjusted it to say it's really about a half million dollars a coin. If there's 21 million, you got a few lost, multiply that,

you get to that 8 trillion. So at 450,000 per coin, people are going to be freaking out, right? Oh, you know, it has to go to zero from here. Zero is off the table, right? We've reached the network effect critical mass where this technology is here to stay. And there are a lot of things it's going to do beyond just the gold store value use case. And there'll be other things that do that. And beyond Bitcoin, there's a whole world of Ethereum and DeFi and Polkadot and Cosmos and Solana and all these things. And again, story for another day, but as big or bigger stories than just the Bitcoin story, and the Bitcoin maximists don't want to hear that. No, it's all accretive. It's all good. We're taking a trad-fi world and an analog world that went to electronic and centralized finance, that now we're going to move to truly digital and a decentralized world, which is just far superior. And in 2024, we'll be talking about

this blockchain era, this trust net, value over internet protocol, or money over internet protocol, all those things. So again, long-winded way of saying we're early. There's a long way to go. And my conviction in the path and the direction has never been stronger. My conviction that volatility of price will continue, never been stronger. Now, the cool thing is that volatility is falling. Now, that's good and bad. Some people say it's good because it means more people will adopt, and I agree with that. I like volatility.

In fact, I should go put on my embrace volatility t-shirt that I have. Volatility is your friend. What is not your friend is semi-variance. Downside deviation from a mean is not your friend. Upside deviation from a mean, awesome. You should wave that in all day. In fact, I actually had this proved, right? It was rumored that Harry Markowitz, who won the Nobel Prize for the CAPM, said that he would have used semivariants in the CAPM, but the math would have been too hard and he wouldn't have won the Nobel Prize. And I'm a big Markowitz fan. In fact, someone made me a t-shirt once that says Markowitz is right, that I have at home. And I got to have dinner with

Professor Markowitz once, which was awesome. It was awesome. And I said, Dr. Markowitz, is it true that you said that you would have used semivariants, but the math would have been too hard? And he says, of course. I wanted the dang million dollars. Absolutely. He said, it's a stupid measure of risk. It has nothing, you know, downside volatility is what you worry about. And so here's an interesting factoid that I learned recently that I've added to my story about Amazon. So again, I don't remember if we talked about it or not, but Amazon has been a public company for 21 years. And in every year, including this year, it's had a double digit drawdown. The average is 31%. Average,

five times more than 50%, twice more than 90%. So very volatile. In fact, the volatility of Amazon is almost precisely the same, 81%, as the volatility of Bitcoin. Interestingly, the compound return at over 200% is almost precisely the same. Now, Amazon's 21 years, Bitcoin's 12 years. So Amazon's got a better track record. When was the right time to sell Amazon? That would be never. Never. Never. Right? Never. How many people bought it 21 years ago at the IPO and hold it today? There are four. Jeff, his mom and dad, and his ex-wife. That's it. And so why didn't anybody hold it? Because it gets shaken out. And, you know, I don't know if you coined the term diamond hands or somebody else, but I feel like it wasn't me, but I like to use it. So this idea that weak hands are real, right?

People get shaken out because they focus obsessively on price. And we just launched a product in December. It's called a risk-managed Bitcoin fund. And people say, what is that? I go, look, we use techniques to mitigate volatility so that we're trying to protect you from yourself, right? Because all of us will react to volatility in a human way, the wrong way, but in a human way.

And the best thing you can do in investing is to find volatile assets early, lock them in a drawer, and don't look at them. In fact, one of my favorite stats, you know the best performing accounts at Fidelity? Are the abandoned and deceased clients. The ones that nobody's ever touched. Nobody ever touched them. And so because people are prone to do something, and there's this great ad,

I have hashtagged it, right? Don't just do something, sit there. The sitting is hard. And look, are we going to have another bear market in Bitcoin? Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, no question. And it's cyclical. And is it around the havings? Yes, but it's havings plus humans. Well, I like that havings plus humans. Just coined that. So I like that because humans are the ones that go from skepticism, okay, to optimism, to enthusiasm, to euphoria. And when you get to euphoria, people are piling in and price moves way up above fair value. And then that happens.

And then we mean revert and then we go back. And then the fear on okay, on the other side, pushes things way below fair value. And that's when the next bull market starts. And so anyway, so I think sometime later this year, you know, we'll have that event. And there will be a time, again, not to necessarily sell all your Bitcoin, but to think about, one, do I want to hedge over the short-term cyclical period? Maybe. Or do I need to do something to get it off my radar so I don't do something stupid? Lock it away so tight that you have to think really hard, long and hard about selling it.

I think multisig is really good for that. Am I going to go to the bank? Am I going to go to this other bank? Am I going to check? Yeah, right. Of course. It's interesting. First, I love what you said about maximalists.

I love maximalists because they're the best cheerleaders for the space and their conviction is truly what brings people in. But that kind of thinking just doesn't jive with me at all. Bitcoin is so many things, it's just not everything. And if you want a future of decentralization, as you said, DeFi, I mean, they're all going to play their part and you'd be kind of silly not to at least take a look, right? But the idea that there's only one blockchain application that's good. Yeah. That's just kind of silly.

It's just kind of silly. And look, I absolutely believe, and I think I can actually back it up, that blockchain technology is and will be the operating system for the internet of everything. And the same way that every operating system in history has eventually yielded to the next innovation. Look, there's COBOL and Fortran were not bad things and they served a very good purpose. Now, the fact that a whole bunch of our legacy financial system is built on COBOL and FORTRAN, and there's nobody left to fix it, we should probably fix that. MIKE CERREIRA Yeah, probably. DAVID SANGER And Mike Cagney at FIGURE is trying to do that.

So there are lots of things that need to be upgraded over time, And evolution is a good thing. Revolution sometimes is necessary, but mostly is not a good thing. But evolution is a really, really good thing. And financial natural selection is real, right? People ultimately do figure out the highest and best use in finances. And we have, you know, look, I remember when I first took high yield bonds to my board back in the 90s at Notre Dame. And we can't buy junk bonds. Well, why? Oh, don't you know, those guys are bad guys. You know, Michael Milken, he's a bad guy. Like, okay, well, let's take Michael aside. Good guy, bad guy. I mean, I think he's actually an amazing guy. And yes, he made a mistake, paid his dues. I still think that was a waste, right? Rather than put a guy like that in jail, we should have sent him to East LA and said,

you can leave when it's fixed. And he actually would have fixed it. He actually would have fixed it. But my point was, let's take Michael off the table here, or any actor for that matter, and let's look at the innovation. What did high yield funding do? Well, it opened up a whole world of opportunity for access to capital to companies that were, again, on the fringe or just developing. And it has created millions and millions of jobs, trillions of wealth. And it was a great innovation. Yet at the beginning, that's where the bad guys are. And I think the same thing is true with Ethereum and DeFi. These people say, oh, it's not good. And it's got all these scammers. I'm like, no. Every innovation, including Bitcoin and all these others, the really smart, good people go at the beginning, right?

And they get exposure. And then when there's money involved, eventually, other people show up. Because look, the Toronto Stock Exchange, I got to tell you, there are a few scammers up there. Now, there's lots of good companies and lots of good, but penny stocks. I cannot believe we just set the all-time record in the United States for penny stock trading, worse than 1929. That probably doesn't end, and that's probably a good thing to talk about on the Wolf of Wall Street show. But Wolf of All Street, sorry. Yeah. But obviously an homage to the Wolf of Wall Street, which is accurate. It's so funny you talk about the scammers.

I mean, technology doesn't create scammers. Scammers go and find the technology that's superior for their scams. I mean, once there's enough money, like you said, they show up and they want to scam people. It makes sense. So it's interesting. We were talking about maximalists and all that. So obviously, I believe stable coins have somewhat replaced the cash use case of Bitcoin, which is fine. We've seen the OCC say that banks will be able to experiment with stable coins versus Swift and ACH, talking about ancient technologies. It's funny, my dad worked for the space shuttle

program. He was their doctor and he used to joke that they had like 30-year-old computer systems still on the space shuttle. They were using 70s technology in the late 90s and stuff and crazy. We see that, right? And that's effectively ACH and Swift and all these. So I guess the question is, we know that it's superior, but what happens now when the banks get their fingers in this, right? I mean, we know central banks will probably eventually put this on their balance sheet, right? Are we going to see them corrupting this decentralization, rehypothecation, fractional banking, lending? I mean, is that all coming to destroy what we love? Well, again, I think it's coming for sure, but I don't think it has to destroy. Look, this will not be popular with many people who might listen to this, but I actually think fractional reserve banking is one of the great inventions in history.

And, oh, that's ridiculous. And it's like, well, let's think about it. Let's look at countries around the world that have good fractional reserve banking systems versus those who don't. One might argue that the economic value per person is higher in those that do. Quality of life and, you of life is probably higher, GDP per capita, all those things. And it's because leverage is just a tool. And used appropriately is a very good tool. Used inappropriately can cause a lot of stress, like the global financial crisis. And it's not an accident

that Bitcoin was created at the depths of the global financial crisis. It wasn't just, oh, I think I'll release it today. Just imagine. No, there was intentionality there, and there was planning. And it's not an accident that there's a reference to the Times article on the second bailout for banks in the Genesis block. That's all not exactly happenstance. But this idea that we want to be completely outside the world of rehypothecation and lending. And no, what the difference here is fiat is going to exist. And it will eventually be digital. We'll have digital central bank currencies instead of electronic. And that's great. And will that challenge stablecoins? For sure. Although it's interesting, stablecoins might have been tough to overcome. You put that in the hands of 2 billion people around the world. Now, again, if it were me, if I were the US government,

I would have said, go for it. And then we're going to be your partner. Yeah, just take it. That's what they should do. Nationalize Diem. Here's the thing. The decentralized world is going to exist as well. And in that world, I believe there is room for the, or I guess in between, there's the room for, you got traditional finance, then you got centralized finance, and then you got decentralized finance. I think there is room for centralized finance, which has all the defects, shall we say, of the traditional banking system that one might point and say, I don't like that or I don't like that. But has the advantages of a link into the decentralized world. And so here's the thing,

the average person, right? So all of us in the space today, and pick a number, however many there are, it's a small number, right? Relative to the population of the world. And the reason I went to do this documentary project is their goal is the next billion, right? Not 7 billion, but the next billion, right? Beyond the couple hundred million that they kind of are aware and are using. The billion people who are working their life, going to work, they're getting destroyed every day by inflation, their wealth being stolen and given up to the top through that myth of inflation being good for them. They probably aren't going to want to manage their keys.

They're probably not going to want to deal with multiple storage places and wallet. They basically want to live their life, but know that they can have some of their wealth protected from the ravages of this fiat fiasco. So I think creating systems and structures and organizations, and we've invested in a number of them that will do that, I think is awesome. Now, for the people who want to be on that purist end of the spectrum, great. And I think you'll get some of the extra benefits of concentration. You and I, again, we talked about this on Twitter is, we all know concentrated portfolios make you rich and diversified portfolios keep you rich. So yeah, those that super concentrate and are right, the key is you have to be right. Because if you super concentrate and you're wrong,

you lose everything. But if you super concentrate and you're right, you make a lot of money. And unfortunately, history is written by the winner. So you only hear about those. You don't hear about the 99 other things that didn't work and people lost a lot of money. But I think we will find ourselves in a place where we can recreate the benefits of rehypothecation, fraction reserve in a decentralized world where we don't have to rely on a trusted third party and we don't have to use, you know, 70 year old legacy software systems that can't talk to one another. But, you know, we can use software, smart contracts, code to, you know, dominate the, or not dominate, to regulate the exchange of value across the internet. There's never going to be a time when your average person doesn't just want to do what's familiar. I want to put my Bitcoin in a bank and know that it's safe and know that it's insured and not worry

about it. That's 99% of the people, no matter what we love to talk about. And should that migrate over time to a a better mix of people who say well sure i do want some self-sacrifice i do want yes of course but every change other than that that was foisted upon you through force, is incremental, right? It's not immediate. And incremental change is important because we want not just a small, look, a small group of Bitcoiners talking to each other and telling them how smart they are. That's fine. That's fine. And look, and I'm really happy for everyone who did see the light, saw the crypto light early and made that investment and has done well. That's fantastic. And have created wealth and independence. coolest text the other day. My daughter sent me a text from a high school friend of hers, sent her a text saying, you know, I came across an article your dad did a couple of years ago and I followed his advice and we bought some Bitcoin and we just bought a house and we bought

all the stuff, it changed our life. And I'm like, you know, that is awesome. And that's just awesome. I didn't even know it was happening, but that is awesome. And there are people in this community who will say, how dare they sell and better their life? Yeah. And I had this conversation with somebody that they shouldn't, they shouldn't have sold. You know what?

He still has a nice nest egg of Bitcoin. He also now has a house and furniture and a place for his kids to play. And that's okay. And could he have, if he had deposited in a crypto bank and taken a loan against it, done it better? Sure. But perfectly fine. But that's not his goal, right? And are there things in all of our lives we could have done better? Yeah. I've done plenty of dumb things. I've sold plenty of

things I shouldn't have sold. The problem is it's only in hindsight. Yeah. Comparing yourself to the best possible outcome at all times in life is a certain way to remain very, very unhappy. Oh man. And that is so well said. That is so well said because, and ultimately your quality of life will suffer because of it. Yeah. Constantly doing that. Miserable. I, you know, that's a psych, a psychological thing with investors and traders is that you always compare yourself to whatever the all time high of your portfolio was rather than where you've come first, say, a year. I mean, you see it all the time, right? People on Twitter say, oh, I'm down a million dollars today when you're probably up $20 million in the last year, right? Yes, exactly. No, you're up 19 million bucks, man. And look, Sam Walton was the best on that, right? It was paper yesterday. It's paper today. It'll be

paper tomorrow. And look, we all want to maximize what we do. Great. But, uh, I think ultimately the greats, right? The really great investors, players in sports, business owners, they have an unbelievable ability to focus on the next play, not the last play. And every shot they missed, they just forget, right? Look, I've made tons of mistakes, but if I dwelled on them and tried to, I can't fix it. It happened. It's past. The water's already flown. And I think constantly focusing on the future and how can I make things better and how can

I improve either my process or my philosophy or my implementation or my discipline. And it's also interesting in that people say all the time, okay, well, how much should I have? I just had this conversation with a client who put a little bit in and now has a lot. And I said, look, as a percentage of a diversified portfolio, yeah, history would say rebalance and, you know and continue to diversify. That said, let's think about how your portfolio fits in your life, right? He fortunately comes from a family of means, and they don't have to worry about everyday necessities.

So we're not talking about investing to cover rent or college or things like that. This is the money that's multi-generational. It's going to go to his kids, his grandkids, his philanthropy. He's young. So yeah, I could say pressure winners, right? Let that winner run and build wealth that will then be impactful for multiple generations versus somebody like myself who, you know, getting up there, having some diversification so that I can fund things that I want to in real time, but also have another part of my portfolio where I think in perpetuity. So in that case, I'm still young. And plus, I got a 10 year old, so I got to do this for a long time. Yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, I used to preach rebalancing heavily, and I just don't

do it out of Bitcoin anymore. I rebalance all the other stuff I have in the crypto world, certainly. But I just don't, right? If I don't need it, if the purpose of it is to hedge against what we know is coming with inflation and, you know, irresponsible central bank, that's not going to work for me with other assets. So at this point, it's just, I think it's funny. We've seen everyone go from, you should have 1%, maybe 5%, maybe 10. And everyone's like 50% is totally cool now, right? I mean, it's just, it's a very funny evolution to see that. And then you add in being able to earn interest on it,

better interest than you can get on anything else. It really is the perfect storm, I think. No, no. And you bring up that. That's an important point. And this, I've been talking about the digital divide for a long time. Ask anyone under 35, I'm sorry, over 35, who's your broker? No, Merrill Lynch, UBS, whatever. How much gold do you have? I don't know, 5%. How much Bitcoin do you have? Oh, are you kidding me? It's a Ponzi scheme. And don't you know that Peter Schiff guy hates it? None. Zero. Okay. Ask anyone under 35. Who's your broker? Robinhood. What's a broker? I got a Robinhood account. What's a broker? Robin. Okay. How much gold do you have? Oh, are you kidding me? Boomer rocks? Pet rocks, nothing. You don't know that shift guy? How much Bitcoin do you have? I don't want to talk about it.

No, I'm not telling you that. Why? Because it's a really big percentage and I'm kind of embarrassed by that. Yeah, it's fine. And that point then, that goes from that digital divide to boomer rates. Here, I'm picking on myself. And millennial rates, 0.5%, 6% to 8%. That's a big difference. If the return on capital invested that is being lent out, is that different? Why? Well, supply and demand. And there's just too much capital over here. There's too much boomer capital. There's too many dollars, too much fiat. So interest rates are very, very low. And that's the myth. And this makes me actually crazy that people say, oh, low interest rates, isn't that good? I'm like, no,

no. Low interest rates are a sign of economic weakness, not economic strength. Look at every country in the world where you have high growth, you don't have low interest rates, you have higher interest rates. Look at every country that is sucking wind. They have low interest rates because they can't afford higher interest rates because the debt burdens are too high. Well, it's great for rich people who want to borrow money really cheap. Well, it is really great for rich people who want to borrow money. And it's really great for the banksters because it is a, again, a wealth tax on the masses to funnel up to the rich. Because when interest rates are low, you're penalizing savers, you're penalizing retirees, you're stealing their wealth through inflation. So they have a negative real return. And where does that money go? Money goes somewhere. It's zero sum. It goes up. And we have the highest wealth and income inequality in the

history of mankind. And the fact that the masses are so comfortable in their hot tub is kind of scary. I mean, I'm not saying take up pitchforks and storm the Capitol. We saw that's a bad idea. But I am saying storm peacefully, right? Convert some fiat to Bitcoin, open a DeFi account, start to decentralize your life, start to think about how you can opt out of that corrupt system that doesn't have your best interest at heart and you know i i actually am wearing you know someone asked you the question uh you know about my socks so everyone friday and uh so i have the uh orange socks magic internet money join us socks for my friends at Mount Socks. And I got the Bitcoin orange pants on too. But it's so important to join us, right? For us all to collectively come

together around this idea of enhancing society from a financial perspective rather than being assaulted. And those are strong words, I know, but we are being assaulted. And if we just sit and take it, that's bad. And to stand up, you don't have to take up arms. Look, I can go hang out with Lopp and he's got all the guns I could ever need. And, but I don't need to go there. All I need to do is open my wallet and diversify out of, you know, the, the money that's being assaulted and come into the money that is going to be a safe Haven. And, don't know, it seems so simple. And for people who have seen the crypto light, it is simple, but boy, there's so many people. And so I want more

people to listen to this podcast. I want more people to dive deeply. I'm constantly out there trying just to get people to just spend a little time, do a little work. Because it's not rocket science. I mean, it is. I mean, the elegance of Bitcoin is unbelievable, right? The elegance of the code, the elegance of the system, the built-in incentives, the built-in resistance to a 51% attack, I mean, it's unfathomable that a person could create that, which I probably as other day, I didn't know this. I used to say he, she, they, and, uh, someone on, on this, uh, thing that they were recording said that, uh, Satoshi self-identified as he like, Oh, that's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah. I thought there was a lot of debate about that.

I know, I know exactly. But I thought that I'd, I'd never heard that. So, uh, I still, I still probably come down to the they. I think so too. It's just so, it's so incredible from a technological standpoint. It's hard for me to believe one person could have, could have done that, but they probably had a lot of help. Possible. I know we're going to run out of time eventually. And there's like 90 more things I want to ask you, but I did.

So we have the, we have the institutional money, obviously is the big narrative of the last year, Michael Saylor leading the charge, Tesla, Square, etc. Okay, so that's big money. I think we're going to see a lot more of that. I know that you are very, you know, well connected and work with university endowments in particular. I want to know when we're going to see the endowments and pension funds coming in and we see the just tens and hundreds of billions rolling into this space. Well, so the endowments are here. So the endowments have backed a number of the firms, both in the VC landscape where we play, as well as the liquid crypto landscape. There are a number of

endowments that have meaningful positions, not billions, but measured in tens and even in some cases now hundreds of millions. Pensions are coming. I mean, we had the first two pension funds, two very leading edge, innovative CIOs that saw the light three years ago. And they're going to anchor our new fund on the venture side. And they're fantastic. I mean, they're just visionary leaders. And some are starting to follow them. The sovereign wealths are around here and there, but they have more money than God, literally. And they could do far more and should do far more. And I think

they will do. The corporations, as you said, are definitely here and coming, but the great wallow money, as I like to call it, of the big pensions, right, the big public pensions, they still suffer from a couple challenges. One, the decision makers are not stakeholders. And I think that's always a problem. They suffer from, you know, the great line that investment committee should be an odd number and three is too many. So their investment committees are too big. And it's fear of losing your job. committee than to actually say what you think. Right. And Barton Biggs wrote a great piece about this called Group Stink. You can find it on the internet. And it's the best two pages on why groups make bad decisions. Because groups, the members of the groups are more focused on staying as part of the group. You don't want to be ostracized by saying something that other people might disagree with. You ever seen American politics by any chance?

Amen. Amen. And it's all about in and out. You just want to stay in power. Do or say, it doesn't matter. You can change your mind overnight as long as you stay in. And so I do think we're seeing, you know, meaningful capital commitment. I think the one thing that's still a challenge, and I don't really know how to fix it, I don't necessarily want to fix it completely. But there are a lot of ways out there, or, you know, exchanges and providers that are still, in my mind, providing too much leverage to people. And when you have that kind of leverage, like 100 to 1 type leverage, it can cause temporary periods of price fluctuation that, again, whether you or I like it or not, people are influenced by that. And particularly the big money crowd, they see that volatility, particularly that day-to-day volatility, and it scares them. Now, the other thing that I think probably needs to happen is more of a PR move than anything else, because there's no information content. The price is at a point now where it causes some people agita.

It shouldn't, right? It should be, hey, I can buy a half, or I can buy a quarter. I can buy one 100 millionth. And that's why stocks historically have split their price. When the price gets too high, investors don't want to pay a high price. And other than Berkshire Hathaway, which most people don't own, because it's like, oh, my gosh, it's $300,000. Well, no, you don't have to buy a whole share. Now, in the old days, you did, but now you don't. So I think that's part of it too. Regulatory fears, I think we need the regulators to come down hard. I don't mean hard

like mean. I mean hard like, hey, this is what we believe, and we're going to stick to it, and we're going to be consistent, and we're not going to let the rumors spread about, oh, this commissioner is going to do this, or this commissioner is going to do that. Let's do it and set that down. So I think that's part of it. But the money is here a little bit. It's coming in size. And the infrastructure has almost caught up, right? That's the question. I mean, is it the ETF? Do we just need an ETF and then they go, it's fine? We need one of the big custodians to buy one of the specialist custodians, right? To get a brand that people trust as the custodian. Like Fidelity, most people trust them, but they really want to see Bank of New York or State Street or somebody say, yes, we believe in these assets. And so I think that'll help. And then just more of this, right? More people like yourself

who are consistently telling the story and getting people to say, huh, okay, I was skeptical. Now I've learned a little more. Now here's some more resources I can go look at. And movements are always one by one. And that one by one starts to grow exponentially. It's like the old Breck commercials, you tell two friends, and they tell two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. And we're getting to that point.

Yeah, that makes sense. I have one more thing I want to ask you. I know we're about done, but you talked about, we talked about rebalancing. I get it every day. I literally got a message yesterday. I was homeless. I was raised homeless. I bought some Bitcoin. I now like bought my parents a house and I have over six figures in the bank. But now what? Right. So I guess the question that I want to ask is when it does come a time to take some sort of profit, what does someone do when they exit? You know, if they're like basically all in crypto, how can you, you know, sort of rebalance and what what can you buy? You're not going to just sit in cash. Right. So, yeah, look, I think what you want to do is you want to convert to the things that you need. I use the example of my daughter's friend. He needed a house. So now he's got a house. Your example here, they got a house. That's good, right? That's not cash. That's not fiat. I mean, it's denominated in fiat, but it's a usable asset that has utility. And so, you know, need a car to get to work? Buy a car. Buy a car.

It's okay. Now, should you deposit your Bitcoin in an interest-bearing account and use that interest to make the car payment? I think Peter McCormick was talking about that. Yeah. And you don't have to do a Lambo, okay? You could do a Hyundai or a Kia. I like Kia. I have a Kia.

Get a Kia. I have a Kia Telluride. Yeah, way better, way better than selling the Bitcoin per se to make a car payment. Now, we have to all remember that there's likely to be another crypto winner. And that in that period, it will feel way less good to sell than to provide some fiat for our daily lives. So one thing we know is it's better to rebalance when things are going well and not to sell completely,

but to rebalance. Because here's the thing. The difference between rebalancing and speculating is very simple. Rebalancing is movement toward a target, and speculating is moving away from a target. So if your target is 100% Bitcoin and 0% anything else, then anytime you sell, okay, you will be violating that rule, okay? Because that's your target. I think that's a bad target. If the target is X% Bitcoin, let's pick a number. If you're, you know, under 35, you want to have 30, 40, 50 percent. I can't argue with you.

But whatever that number is, pick it. Have a number for some equity. Look, I think some equities, particularly we like the area of SPACs because we think those are the companies of the future. Those are the Amazons of tomorrow and the space travel and e-sports and online gaming and autonomy and electrification. By the way, contrary to popular belief, we have zero robo-taxis. Zero. We were promised a million, we have zero. Someday we're going to have a lot and autonomy is going to be a big deal.

Owning autonomy companies or electrification companies, really good idea. So owning some of that is good. Having some cash that you can use to fund your lifestyle, important. And the way I look at it is I always talk about the buckets. So at the bottom, you have a liquidity bucket. It should be 10% to 15% of your wealth, and it should be purely liquid. And that, I used to say cash, because that is what you need to spend. Now I could argue that not all of it should be cash cash. Some of it could be Bitcoin or other things that are liquid, but it has to be really liquid because you're going to need it to pay bills and spend. Okay. Up at the tippy top, you got another bucket, 10 to 15%. That's the get rich bucket. That's for all the brother-in-law tips and the cousins

real estate deal. You're going to lose all of it, so keep it small. Then there's the stay-rich bucket, which is 70% to 80% of your wealth. And that should be a diversified portfolio. But diversified doesn't mean just stocks and bonds. It means stocks. It means bonds. It means real estate. It means commodities. It means digital assets. And right now, I can make an argument that any traditional bonds, short-term bonds, short-duration bonds, yuck, don't like them. A little tiny bit of long-duration treasuries as a deflation hedge in case things blow up, good. Some equities, particularly equities focused on innovation, great. Some emerging markets where there's going to be massive growth like China, India, great. A big old hunk in Bitcoin, some DeFi assets, that's a beautiful portfolio. And rebalancing that on a periodic basis, quarterly, annually, not daily, not monthly, not weekly, is great. And ultimately, that stay rich bucket should drip down into the liquidity bucket. And if you spend 5% a year or 10% a year,

you replenish that and you do it the next year. And that get rich stuff, if you want to hit a home run occasionally, that replenishes the stay rich bucket. So that's the way to think about it. There's no shame in selling a little bit of crypto, particularly if you've done really, really well. On the other hand, if you can sell other things where you think the risk reward is greater, do that. In the short run, I believe we're still in a bull market. I believe we will be through sometime the end of this year. Then I do believe we'll have a bear market. In that period, it'll feel way better to have rebalanced a little bit, still on a hodl over that period into a long duration asset. But that's the way I think about it.

Yeah. I always feel that every time I take profit, it just takes a little more pressure off. Yeah. A little pressure release. I know we literally have less than 30 seconds. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can everybody follow you after this? I'll put it in the notes, obviously. So I'm, I'm, I'm easy on Twitter at Mark. You go Morgan Creek cap, CAP.com is our website. It's got always fun to do this. And, uh,

I can do it for all day. We got to do it. We've got to howl. All right. Three, two, one. Oh, let me do it alone. That's a good one. Thanks buddy. Have a good one. you