The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin Drops Below 90K - Was That The Bottom? | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

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Good morning, everybody. Happy Monday, bloody Monday to start the day, but looking like we're getting quite the bounce still. Bitcoin, obviously, starting the day today, I think around $94,500, as high as $95,882 during this trading day, which of course, you know, is 24 hours, So kind of a rolling day, but going below $90,000 today for the first time, I believe since basically mid-November. November 18th was the last time that Bitcoin price, looking at the chart, traded below $90,000. Went there today, but it was brief. If you were watching Macro Monday this morning, my show that I do on YouTube at 9 a.m. every Monday with James Lavish, Mike McGlone, and Dave Weisberger, I pretty admittedly bought Bitcoin on that drop while we were sitting there on the show. The comments were, hey, Scott looks really distracted. Why is he looking at his phone? What's he doing? I bought Solana and I bought Bitcoin on that drop. Just for full transparency, it doesn't mean I think that they can't go lower.

But for me, long term, I very, very strongly believe that this asset class continues to rage massively upwards. And that seemed like a very, very good buying opportunity. Bitcoin almost 93,000 right now. What a bounce. We have the topic here, Bitcoin drops below 90K. Was that the bottom? I don't like to say things were the bottom, but that looked like a bottom. And I think that if you're trading, certainly when you see a massive area of liquidity sort of tested like that, you know that at least initially you should see a big bounce because buyers step in

that have been interested, like myself, at buying Bitcoin back below $90,000 if it got there. But there's a lot of, obviously, things happening in the macro picture. And I think that Bitcoin, obviously, has these moments where it sort of starts to correlate to other markets. That drop happened right when markets opened. If you guys did miss that, it was right around 9.30 AM about an hour ago, just under an hour ago, which is pretty crazy that we were under $90,000, I believe, 45 minutes ago, now trading back at $93,000. But obviously, when you woke up this morning and saw the DXY, the dollar index at 110. And at the same time, you can see what was happening with interest rates. I think markets hate uncertainty and we are in a very, very, very

uncertain point at this moment because none of the data seems to line up. It's hard for people to determine whether we have a good or a bad economy. And I think that that's obviously putting pressure on markets. I mean, DXY was 110, and the 10-year yields hit 4.8% before retreating on US 10 years today. You know, last time I checked, when the Fed starts its rate-cutting cycle, the expectation is that interest rates will come down, and they've gone up, and they've gone up massively. So I think it's just causing a hell of a lot of confusion. But I mean, Dave, we were just on YouTube watching Bitcoin go below 90. And you're saying, well, look at that balance right back to 90,500.

Well, now we're back to 93,000. I mean, look, you got a lot of motion, right? You know, people were still in this period of time before Trump comes in. People are still worried about what's happening. We've just seen a absolutely catastrophic disaster unfold in one of the richest areas in the United States. And, you know, there's just a lot of cross currents here. I mean, frankly, as I said to you on the show, what's happening in terms of potential drops in confidence in the in the financial system and saying, Okay, I need to make sure I'm okay. They sell what they have to sell, you know, what they can sell, they don't sell what they want to sell. And so you see these sorts of moves, it's not all that surprising. But it's, it's

amusing in a way, you know, if you're sitting here with no leverage, and with your liquidity needs for the next couple of years, you know, you know, salted away, you know, which is where that's the situation that I'm in. You know, I just look at this and I say, well, OK, this is a perfect dip buying opportunity if you wanted to. And frankly, you did do that while we were on the show. You did it live. kind of amusing, but it's not really that surprising to people, or it really shouldn't be, because there's nothing that's happened in the news cycle other than potential short-term U.S. government sales in the last week before we get a new administration that's going to change anything.

Yeah, but do you align with sort of the, I mean, I know you do, but this just uncertainty of how markets are reacting to each piece of data that sort of comes out right now? I mean, you got strong jobs. You got obviously unemployment down. But as James said on the show this morning, we're expecting an actual sizable uptick in inflation with CPI this week. And you have the incoming administration. And nobody believes the numbers anyway so is this just markets hate uncertainty to me that's what is happening well yeah it's uncertainty and watching the bond rates right watching the long end you know people's

fears are always going to be that the government loses control of the bond market. And we saw this in October of 23, right, as it approached 5% back then. And it was equally fearful. And being October, we saw equal sorts of volatility. And you can go back and look at it, it shouldn't surprise anybody. I mean, this is exactly what happens. Now, what is my theory? My theory is post October 23, when when the government figured out how to inject liquidity to stabilize the bond yields and actually make them go back down into a more acceptable range, there was a pretty sizable rally in all risk assets. Am I saying it's going to happen again? Well, it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, if I'm the Trump administration, I kind of want to see this to be a crappy week and to come in with a lower baseline so that they, you know, for them to measure themselves.

And but we'll see. You know, everyone was talking about by the, you know, by the rumor and sell the fact of the inauguration. I think at this point, it's pretty clear that the selling of the inauguration has happened early and we'll see what really happens. I think it could be it could be quite interesting. When you're obviously tracking the macro, I saw you kind of giving a few emojis when I was talking about this sort of confusion and uncertainty. What do you think? Well, yeah, certainly. Good morning. And just looking at you know like looking at uncertainty um you know we're definitely seeing quite a bit of uncertainty in the sense that we have a very strong dollar and uh parts of the commodities complex are rising in the face of a strong dollar which is a bit alarming right we have uh copper silver gold um aluminum they're all up on a month to date uh

basis i mean i'm sure you've talked about this to death this morning, but yes, you know, a hundred thousand is definitely a psychological resistance level here. So we saw some, you know, some interim push back, I'm down to say 90,000 level. But if that is a new support, because we've seen an influx of investors kind of moving out of Bitcoin on, on the interim. And I think some of that was just some of the sentiment overall with the Trump administration and their positive outlook on Bitcoin. So if that's the new support level, you can make a contrast or a comparison to something like copper. If this is a new level of, say, like $4 with copper,

and then you have this level of, say, $90,000 to $92,000 for Bitcoin, I think that is fairly positive news. One area that we shouldn't overlook is the geopolitical front and what's happening here. So we have a lot of sort of interim to long term catalysts that can arrive for Bitcoin and for some of the commodities complex here as well. So obviously, with the comments coming from the incoming administration about tariffs, there's been some news of a crackdown on India for their purchasing of Russian oil. You can even look at something like some of the comments coming out about the Iranians and their proposed nuclear program. And then also even with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it doesn't look like we could have a resolution on that front either anytime soon.

So if you put all of these things together, this sort of geopolitical uncertainty is quite positive for Bitcoin. And then also if we have any sort of commentary coming out of the administration with Bitcoin as well, that's positive sentiment. So I think we saw some of that trade that Trump trade priced in. And I think that we may have seen a new support level here at around 90, 92,000, but we'll have to see what happens in the future. But on a long-term basis this does look uh positive for bitcoin overall david sounds like you you know well i mean

like i i don't know whether it's news or not news i mean you know on the twitter feed so i'm at trump basically talking about forming a crypto advisory council of 24 leaders to do this stuff i mean you know if he follows through and you get people who actually understand markets and know how to build this stuff and draft the right legislation in a way that isn't you know the way most securities regi securities regulations tend to get built by the lobbyists of the large companies, as long as it is not done that way. I mean, it could be ridiculously bullish, but we will see, right? You know, he's not president yet, and we haven't seen his people get nominated through. I mean, they should. And if they all start sailing through, I think you're

going to see a very strong rally in the market. But I think people are very uncertain as to what kind of blockages will happen and what will what will go on. But you know, geopolitically, I mean, look, I think that right now most people are skeptical. And you know, I was talking to people this weekend who actually know something, you know, have some relations to some of the people who are in the know think that there could be some upside surprises there as well. So you you know we'll see what happens anyone else specific go ahead someone's jumping in alex yeah i mean i think there's cryptos classics sell the news kind of thing i think we're getting in

to the close into the inauguration and we haven't seen i don't know there's not a lot of movement on anything right now i'm not saying there won't be movement over time but like people just kind of don't know what's going to happen on it there is a lot of instability i think the bond market is a huge part of it the this is obviously not just a u.S. phenomenon. You're seeing government bond rates kind of skyrocket across the globe as there's just a lot of selling of bonds and not nearly as much buying right now. And in particular, nobody knows what Trump's going to do to the debt. The combination of the TCGA definitely getting extended. If he starts dropping a bunch bunch of tariffs they're going to be deeply steeply inflationary uh inflation hasn't been cooling off so again i think it's just uncertainty someone else already said this but it's uncertainty across the board and markets don't love uncertainty

simon yeah you know it is a global story while While we all look to the US, everything has happened outside the US is accentuated. We, you know, we're, we're, the reason this is a Bitcoin story is because we're at peak centralization. And we're in the midst of several currency wars, just take one economy, look at the UK right now, you know you've got the highest level of national debt and debt to gdp for an incredible for a long time you've got the pound weakening you've got um guilt long-term rates rising and remember the uk has the most leveraged uh you know pension fund that's backed by guilt in the world um last, one of our prime ministers tried to actually implement some capitalism. She was overthrown by the Bank of England within 50 days because it broke the gilt market and ended up with a run on our pension. And so immediately, you have to return to the same types of monetary policy that breaks everything in the first place

and so you know we are witnessing and that and i know people are saying we don't know what trump's going to do i think i know what he's going to do i i stand to be corrected he's going to increase debt he's going to have more debt than his previous administration he's going to have more debt than the biden administration because this is the way that the system is um is set up now you know bitcoin is there's no doubt that bitcoin is being fed with some of those dollars and so therefore there's an element of is it risk off is it risk on but the reality is is that bitcoin was designed in a way where it doesn't matter whether the Fed keeps feeding it, it does have some short term impact. But it could be fed by any central bank or any outflow of a fiat currency into trying to protect yourself with the properties

that Bitcoin gives you in a global currency war. And the type of environment we're in right now where everything's breaking because the only thing you can do in this environment is buy Bitcoin or buy US stocks or lend it to the US government or own real estate. And real estate, quite frankly, we had a little shock because tragically, some of it's burning down in LA. Yeah. Go ahead, Carlo. Good morning, Scott. Yeah, what a roller coaster. And it seems to be a repetitive pattern

that we're seeing every Sunday. We wake up early, early Sunday morning and see everything dump. And then we see an eventual correction. I have to agree with Simon. I mean, if you can't stop nation states from debasing currency and printing endlessly to keep this thing going, which is what they all seem to have aligned themselves to do, you're going to have to trade it. If you can't beat it, trade it.

That's what I've always been saying. And I think the best trade right now is to accumulate Bitcoin within your comfort level as a hedge against all of this global instability. But all of that being said, Scott, the fundamentals haven't changed. Gary Gensler's out in seven days. Trump is getting sworn in with perhaps the most pro-crypto administration the world has ever seen. Tech is definitely influential in White House policy. So I cannot see anything but upside for risk assets in crypto if this plays out as we all think. Yeah, I think that the big question mark right now, in my mind or with markets in general, as for Bitcoin, Carlo Carlo kind of to your

point I think we all know that there's nothing but tailwinds when it comes to Bitcoin reserves and adoption by corporations countries sovereign we know that the Trump administration will be bullish for Bitcoin I think what a lot of people are waiting to see perhaps is how much it's prioritized against other items on the docket in the first hundred days. Right. We were talking about this this morning again, Dave, you and I and Mike. But, you know, to some degree, I think it's fair to say that Bitcoin is priced for perfection right now based on all those things. Right. We've gone up to one hundred and eight thousand dollars because everybody knows that Trump's coming in. I don't think so, Scott.

No, no. I mean, yeah, I'm generally, that's the caveat, right? I'm telling you a lot of people think that way. I'm not saying I think that way. So they want to actually see movement after the inauguration directly. So there could be a letdown if all of a sudden it's not a priority in the shorter term. I don't think that matters at all long term. And I think there are so many potential catalysts like a strategic reserve that send Bitcoin flying.

But I mean, it is reasonable to think that a lot of people will be watching and waiting to see what he actually does versus what he's actually promised. But what he has done so far is put up a lot of appointees that are very pro crypto. That's meaningful. Yeah, I think the point I was trying to make will crystallize to this when traders are looking from second to second minute to minute hour to hour and investors are looking at month to month to year to year and so you get all sorts of disconnects so it look what is not priced in is something that within the first six months is 100 likely to happen but it's not priced in which is that every financial firm will be allowed to apply and offer crypto trading services that is absolutely not priced into the market there's no way because

you do not understand what that means what that means is all it's the great unlock of half of the wealth of the world and how many other countries will then follow in those footsteps that's just not price tip it just isn't sorry and it's 100 certain you know paul atkins is not going is going to call robert cook at finra and say if you get applications from firms to fight to to trade bitcoin you have to let them you can't just stonewall it which has been the exact opposite of what we've had. It is absolutely certain more and more companies are going to adopt Bitcoin as a treasury asset. We know that is true. Maybe that's priced in, maybe it isn't. I doubt it. Right. You know, the Strategic Reserve is what everyone's talking about. I mean, it's probably somewhat thinking about maybe priced in and maybe be disappointed isn't I doubt it

but it's a very big difference today right now as it stands most Americans either have hard time even buying the ETFs or they have to go through and sign extra stuff and certainly buying spot crypto is not easy through the normal channels that is just not priced in I'm sorry uh but there are many other things you're right that we don't I mean, I think that one of the proximate causes for things to be down is the fact that, I don't want to use adjectives, but when people like Steve Bannon and others from the right are attacking Elon Musk and making it look like it's going to be dysfunction in the administration, I think that panics people, that things aren't going to get done. And so we're seeing all those stories play out. So until we actually see the administration take shape, I think there's

going to be a fair amount of uncertainty. I think one piece of good news I don't think is priced in is the fact that Cynthia Llamas is going to chair the Digital Asset Committee in the Senate. She's the author of the Bitcoin Act. I think that means we are very likely to have hearings in the Senate on the SBR on why it's a good idea. My view is that the most important part of the SBR is actually not the amount of Bitcoin that gets bought. I mean, maybe if it's a huge number, but if it's a huge number, that can cause problems for the dollar. But it is the United States signaling that Bitcoin is a legitimate asset, that it's serious, that it's a strategic imperative. And, you know, Lomas chairing the Digital Asset Committee, I think basically guarantees that that conversation is to be had in public and produce a whole bunch of soundbites

that could move the Overton window on how people think about Bitcoin. And that's 100% accurate. I've been saying sort of regard, obviously, in the face of the Silk Road selling, right, that people are very concerned about with the DOJ right now. It really doesn't matter how much. It just matters that we say we do it. If there's 100 Bitcoin left and the United States says Bitcoin is a reserve asset on our balance sheet that we intend to add to and they just don't for a long time, doesn't even matter.

They've said it. Right, Zach? I mean, that's why it just matters that they do it. Yeah. We broke our executive order into like three parts for that reason. The first is just the legal establishment of an SBR, which doesn't require any action other than President Trump saying so on the ESF. The second one is moving any coins that we have into the ESF. We'll see what we have into the SBR. We'll see what has left. And then and the third is buying but i think honestly that first announcement is probably the part i care about the most zach interesting sort of nuance with lummis she's very very pro bitcoin obviously i wouldn't say

she's anti-crypto she's pretty dismissive and she's even at times i think being critical of stable coins in the past so is this one of those things that maybe is very positive for Bitcoin, but not necessarily for the rest of the market? No, I don't. Remember, Cynthia Lennis is also a co-author of the, I think, best, most comprehensive version of a crypto market structure bill we've seen, right? The Lemus Gillibrand bill, which creates the concept of these ancillary assets, which would legalize crypto VC fundraising. I think she is broadly pro-crypto. I think she understands Bitcoin and sees it differently than she sees the rest of crypto. But I expect that a lot of things about the incoming administration will be positive for

non-Bitcoin crypto assets. Yeah, I agree. Go ahead, Alex. Yeah, I was going to say, I think there's also a chance we get the inverse of what we're talking about here of just an announcement that doesn't actually have the buying behind it. The announcement of an SBR, and I'll put aside if it's just an executive action one, since that can come from Trump solely, obviously. But in terms of something going through the legislature and going through Congress on it, the staking that we're going to that we think it's a reserve asset is actually the expensive part for the government.

It's also the thing that is potentially risky and destabilizing for our financial system and currency in the U.S. overall. So there's also just the possibility that sort of the government starts accumulating or doesn't sell some chunk of the Silk Road bitcoins, but does so without actually saying we're going to make this thing a reserve asset since that's the expensive thing for that. I don't think the politics point in that direction. I think if Trump is going to make that move, he's going to take credit for that. I don't think the politics point in that direction. I think if Trump is going to make that move, he's going to take credit for it. Have we said, have we heard, and maybe we have, and I just have not been paying attention. Have we heard Trump himself say strategic reserve asset

about Bitcoin? Because at the actual conference in Nashville, he came up short of saying that, and then Lummis came out and proposed the actual legislation. He just sort of said we won't sell. Right. I think he said strategic Bitcoin stockpile was the phrase stockpile that was the terminology that was used the first time but i i honestly there's so much news and i'm sure we've reported on it but has there been more clarification on that since then that was many many months ago to anybody yeah i guess uh i i can't i can't really recall either so uh do we have an expectation then that zach if she is chairing that committee and we're seeing all this aligned that this is a real first hundred days issue in your mind for that committee a right so the fear that uh crypto is not on the docket in the first 100 years 100 days is maybe overblown because if she's carrying the money look there's a difference

between the the digital asset subcommittee is going to be solely focused on crypto right like and so they will be focused on it is it going to be a priority of the overall Congress in the first 100 days? That is still an open question. And then even if the answer to that is yes, the three big legislative priorities that are competing against one another are the SBR, a market structure bill, and a stablecoin bill. And we don't know which of any of those would get through, even if it is a priority. So what's going to get passed into law is a more difficult, nuanced question. But I think safe to say the Digital Asset Subcommittee will be focused on crypto and will be focused on the SBR. There's also, I think today I saw

Saylor was tweeting about it, but I was busy and Trump as well about maybe some more specifics as to what a committee would look like or what his intentions are with this sort of panel of experts that he's putting together to focus on crypto. Did anybody see that news? I'll dig deeper for it if nobody else has the quick summary, but he's definitely still talking about it on a daily basis and still seems to be news. Speaking of Taylor, I don't know if anybody saw it, but if not, we'll move on. Speaking of Saylor, he bought another $200-something million worth of Bitcoin, I think at about $95,000. When does this guy run out of dry powder? Anyone? Is it indefinite money glitch here? I know he continues to raise money, but is there a time

when Michael Saylor doesn't have the ability to buy hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin on a weekly basis? Dave what do you think i think there's exactly good chance i say good chance the answer eventually is yes yeah even i guess our idea that he can't buy in january's out the window then yeah i think you know i think january was sort of conjecture based on people's assumption of timing of the inclusion in the uh nasdaq 100 but uh i think that i don't think it was necessarily pinned to january or if it's like a certain blackout period depending on when they're getting added so maybe that could still be a thing i don't know yeah just when i came off from you a loud car went by apologies for that yeah i don't know why there, just when I came off mute, a loud car went by. Apologies for that.

Yeah, I don't know why there'd be a blackout period around index inclusion. I mean, the index inclusion event has nothing to do with MicroStrategy. It has everything to do with the index construction. Do we have a date for that, index inclusion? Because that's also going to be quite a catalyst, I think. Who knows? But I think I thought what I had understood, and I am not an expert, it was that he was done selling stock. And now it's a question of loan proceeds from

convertible debt issuance. And I still think there's room there. And obviously, if you're dollar cost averaging, you're going to do it every week. It's really that simple. I mean, the thing that I think people were concerned about was that he was doing bigger pieces but you know it doesn't seem like you're doing bigger pieces anymore and so whatever he's dollar cost averaging it is what it is yeah but uh it's been aggressive dollar cost averaging right what was the stat that we've shared it before, but like to the first 100,000 Bitcoin took him six months or a year or something, and then the last 100,000 at a much higher price, and this was weeks ago, took him like two or a couple weeks, right? So I mean,

this isn't, you know, he's clearly seen a major upswing in his strategy here. And it's definitely given a lot of confidence to the market so is there any fear that if he stops that the market loses some confidence or do you think that he's pushing through until we have these other catalysts if we get an sbr it's not going to matter how much michael saylor buys on a weekly basis right well i mean keep in mind that that he won't be alone you know in terms of you know treasury i mean micro strategy started as a tre as as as a treasury-based company and then he got the idea uh of doing convertible debt after he established scale and so and the convertible debt takes

advantage both of scale and of monetizing volatility. And so it's an interesting scenario. I mean, I just think that it becomes less and less important to overall Bitcoin over time. And if it doesn't, then there's a big problem. And I think that's sort of where I think Zach was saying, you know, it really, while he's certainly a leader and will probably continue to be a leader for a long time, it's a question of the relative importance of the community should get less and less. If it doesn't get less and less, then there's a problem.

I think we all need to be prepared for the next. of the price action was just a combination of a bet on an SBR that didn't happen and Michael Saylor buying and that it was all fake. And, you know, Bitcoin is not actually legitimate, like we say it is. Well, I mean, that's true, Zach. And I think I think a hell of a lot of the people who are selling believe that right now. I've heard that from quite a few people. So I think that that is the current fear. And you know, good mark bull markets climb a wall of worry. And that's the big worry. So just take it, you know, as with a grain of salt, but understand that that is actually a very big deal. I mean, it's becoming the new China FUD. Really quickly, speaking of FUD, well, a great segue, Dave, I just happened to open this article as I do while we're doing this show. You guys may recall that last year in Davos, I think that's basically a year ago, right? They had Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan out in the snow, bitching that he was never going to talk about Bitcoin again, lamenting the fact that people kept asking him about Bitcoin, pissed off that he had to talk about Bitcoin. Well, he's talking about Bitcoin again. He did an article yesterday with CBS News.

And here's a couple of quotes that I just saw because hilarious. So he said it has no intrinsic value. But here's the quote, in case you've never heard Jamie Dimon's takes on Bitcoin before doubling down on the false ones that we know are not true. But here you go. We are going to have some kind of digital currency at some point, not against crypto. Bitcoin itself has no intrinsic value. It's used heavily by sex traffickers, money launderers, ransomware, Jamie Dimon said in an interview. And here's one that we've heard before, but maybe some of you have not. I just don't feel great about Bitcoin. I applaud your ability to want to buy or sell it, just like I think you have the right to smoke, but I don't think you should smoke.

And then came on to say, blockchain is real. It's a technology. Thanks, Jamie. We use it. It's going to move money. It's going to move data. It's efficient. We've been talking about that for 12 years um yeah so uh anyone want to comment on uh jamie diamond doubling down a year later still

with the same tired fud that sounds like it's coming directly from elizabeth warren's mouth and she doesn't even seem to say this stuff anymore yeah coming from uh jeffrey epstein's banker of course how many times have we pointed that out yeah listen how many times has jp to say this stuff anymore. Yeah, coming from Jeffrey Epstein's banker. Of course. How many times have we pointed that out? Yeah, listen, how many times has JP Morgan paid fines for money laundering? Or money used for criminal activity? It's billions and billions and billions of dollars it seems to be on a yearly basis. But still, what's the angle here? Is this like Peter Schiff? You know, is Jamie Dimon so deeply entrenched in his feelings that there's no piece of evidence that's going to change his mind about bitcoin or is he still

parroting a narrative that has some political or monetary benefit to him that's the question i want to ask well it's it's the structural so if um if you think about jp morgan's interest they're one of the largest shareholders in the federal reserve um they created their own you know jp morgan coin stable coin in order to do cross-border transactions they're one of the primary members of the bank for international settlements um in terms of through their shareholding in the Federal Reserve, which is testing a network of central bank digital currencies. So, you know, J.P. Morgan is a shill for the Federal Reserve System. And so he seems to have been the last one, whereas other organizations like BlackRock have said,

if you can't beat them, join them, build a position. It seems like his allegiance is to the Federal Reserve, the system that his organization created in the first place in order to steal the dollar and the benefits of the dollar from American people. Anyone else have any specific thoughts there, Dave? Yeah, you know, first they laugh at you, you know, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win. You know, winning, you know, in this particular case is I'm not going to fight you anymore.

So what you're basically getting is the gradual movement from, yeah, this is just horrible to, okay, well, whatever, do it. I don't really like it, but, you know, I'm not going to stand in your way anymore. I mean, I would be, I will go so far as to say that with virtual 100% certainty, JP Morgan will be offering in their brokerage division crypto trading services within a year. Maybe they'll be the last one, but it will happen. Already, don't they? I mean, to some degree, maybe on the brokerage side. I'm talking about when we have a new SEC chair and a new communication with FINRA and they stop because right now they forced every broker dealer to, if you wanted to offer anything with crypto, to create a totally separate affiliate that has nothing to do with any of the licensed entities.

That's how Robinhood had to structure it, etc. And that's why so few firms have offered it. That's why Morgan Stanley even said they're going to start it with E-Trade and form a separate affiliate. But it'll be a mainline offering within a year. The big question is, when do we get Vanguard? Vanguard will be forced when vanguard's forced i mean when every other broker when offering bitcoin trading services is no different than offering precious metal trading services i mean is vanguard going to allow it and maybe maybe they just say do they allow people i don't know

so maybe you don't get Vanguard. And you know, then it'll be really interesting. Because here's the thing, you know, economics is a wonderful thing. If your 401k platform is the only one that doesn't allow Bitcoin right now, quite a few of them don't most don't. But when all the other 401k platforms allow Bitcoin directly, then Vanguard will either change or they'll let money flow out. But until then, you know, right now, none of them have it. I mean, you can buy it in an ETF and a self-directed 401k. But, you know, I don't know if anyone's checked their their defined benefit plans or their defined or their their option plans that they get. Most of them don't have it.

And that is going to change. That's a very big driver that people don't talk about a lot. But, you know, it really is about economics. You know, Vanguard will do what Vanguard is going to do. You can buy GLD on Vanguard, by the way. So they offer the ETFs, but obviously not like physical precious metals. But they don't offer Bitcoin ETFs. So obviously not like physical precious metals. But they don't offer Bitcoin ETFs, so that's the corollary. Well, right now, J.P. Morgan

services about half of all the Bitcoin spot ETFs and more. So they're already in the game. You just don't see them. They're behind the scenes. Yeah, they're the authorized partner or whatever it's called, right?

Authorized something? They're a market maker. Participant. Participant, sorry. The authorized participant. Yeah, authorized participant. That's it, yeah. And one of the things...

And JP Morgan coin, I mean, they use, as he says, I mean, he admits this, they use the technology all the time. I mean, one of the projects was at Catena. One of those came out of JP Morgan coin. I mean... he admits this. They use the technology all the time. I mean, one of the projects, was it Catena? One of those came out of J.P. Morgan coin. Keep in mind, one of the things that's been predicted,

I can't remember who was talking about it a lot, is that one of the first things that will change in the new SEC is you'll be able to have the Bitcoin ETF move to in-kind creation. Esther Perr said it in an article, in an interview with Zach Guzman,

she said in kind creation and that Ethereum staking could come, just to give people clarity. So what does that mean? That means the authorized participants, in order to be competitive, will need to trade spot Bitcoin. That's what it means. Right now, the authorized participants are trading in futures, and that's why the futures trade at a premium, full stop.

So when you look at the CME futures, they trade at a premium full stop so you look at the cme futures they traded a premium people are making money in the cash and carry trade that's going to disappear when it goes to in-kind creation because there won't be a need to use the futures and people who only have to pay a premium are going to lose money compared to those who don't and i wonder how the in-kind increase is going to work with uh tornado cash coins well that's probably not probably not very well that's interesting i had an interview dan with frank holmes from hive uh obviously one of the first publicly traded minor uh last week and he actually made the point non-specific to that but that they only he was

talking about why they don't take loans or convertible notes to buy bitcoin on their balance sheet and he said very specifically part of their company ethos, and he thinks will be very important moving forward, is to only own virgin Bitcoin. Yeah, there probably should be a premium attached to newly mined Bitcoin. And if you had newly mined Bitcoin that were mined in the US using green electricity, I could see a point where they, you know, it goes against the ethos of what Bitcoin is about, but I could understand why they would trade at a premium. Yeah, maybe Dan, for people in the audience who might not know, like, well, why does that matter?

Like, what does that mean? I said the term virgin Bitcoin or green Bitcoin. Yeah, I can expand a little bit. I mean, that obviously, who was his name? Mr. Fantastic or whatever his name, the American guy. Mr. Wonderful. Yeah, Mr. Wonderful, yeah. He was saying, I want all of my Bitcoin to be mined with green and the US. It's the provenance of the coins, right? They've come directly from the Coinbase issuance, the term Coinbase rather than the company Coinbase. They have no history.

They've not been involved in money laundering. They've not been through any of that kind of stuff. So I suppose in the sense that, and this is a known phenomenon even within physical currency, if you get two coins or in the US two notes and one's crumpled and old and one's nice and pristine, if you go and buy

something, you're going to use the old note to buy it, right? You're going to use the old coin. So we do, even though they are fungible, associate some higher level of value to the coins that are kind of nicer um whether that plays out and whether we see that as a premium in the actual market i don't know that would be very interesting to see i suppose that is something that's really new because historically that's never been there i don't think as a side note i don't know that this is particularly huge news, but definitely worth just mentioning because this just happened. BlackRock launches spot Bitcoin ETF on CBOE Canada. So now they will have access on CBOE Canada to the BlackRock spot ETF. Steve, you're the ETF guy. Does that matter? It doesn't matter a whole lot. It mainly hurts the people that are already in Canada offering it. What was it?

Was it 2019 when all the Bitcoin spot ETFs were approved in Canada? Yeah, they were ahead. It's such a small market. It doesn't really matter. But BlackRock will slowly take market share away from the incumbents, and they'll win there like they win everywhere else. Does it mean it's priced in CAD though? Because that's significant for everyone putting it in their retirement funds and pensions in Canada, right? The new Prime Minister of Canada is a Bitcoin resident.

He's not. Yeah, I think I think the important part is when they get approved in each country, if they're like in the UK, you still can't really put a GBP Bitcoin ETF in your retirement fund at the moment while the regulators catch up. But you know, it's all about enabling because they obviously want to have these priced in the local currencies. And so, yeah, it just adds a bunch more capital.

But there are already Canadian traded ETFs, right? And they have been for a while. I'm assuming they traded in the States. I think they were one of the first. I think the first were Swedish Nasdaq. I remember buying that before I got properly into Bitcoin. My first exposure was through the Swedish Nasdaq and things there.

I've still bought that from... That was like 2013. When I left corporate, I ended up with this self-inversed personal pension. Through Hargreaves Lansdowne, I was able to buy that and that was like in 2014 but the the premiums are very high on that what you pay management fee i think is quite high yeah they're crazy but um

obviously the returns from 11 years of holding so yeah but yeah i think canada's had canadian dollar denominated etfs for a while, certainly before the U.S. So I don't know if it would be that much of a game-changer to have a Canadian dollar-denominated ETF because they already exist. Yeah, so both have existed. And the Canadian dollar ETFs are mainly bought by people in Canada. The dollar-denominated ones were mainly marketed to people in the US. I don't know if many people knew this, but you could actually, you know, I can go into my brokerage account and buy a Canadian Bitcoin spot ETF. They weren't allowed to market it publicly, but everybody did.

So, I mean, 3iq actually hired marketing people in the US to go out and promote their ETF without promoting it. So, yeah, it was quite interesting. And now that we have dollar-denominated Bitcoin spot in the US, people have slowly moved out of the Canadian because there's additional taxes you have to pay to buy the US spot version. Yeah, also, I think Scott was talking about Hive earlier. If memory serves me right, the

many of the early mining IPAs were all done on the Canadian market before the US market. Yeah. Buzz? Yeah, we have a sponsor today. I mean, this has been a great conversation. It's nice to hear everybody's thoughts and it's such a red day to keep us relatively optimistic. But Mario's company, IBC, does marketing, incubation, and investing. Sponsors on this show are sponsors working directly with IBC and not necessarily Crypto

Town Hall or Scott specifically. And today we have World of Deepians. So World of Deepians, why don't you test your mic and give a bit of an elevator pitch on what the project is. Hey guys, can you hear me okay? Yeah, loud and clear. Nice, nice. So good morning or good afternoon, wherever you are. My name is Gassman, I'm the PM of World of Deepians. For those who don't know anything about us, World of Deepians is an MMORPG game

available on Epic Game Store for download, but most recently it got listed on Steam Marketplace, which is the next step and bigger milestone for us to bridge Web 2 and Web 3 altogether. We have been leading the gaming ecosystem for the past year right now, being one of the top games in the market. But we are not just providing just a gaming platform. What we're trying to do is to build all in one platform, merging together four main pillars, as we call it, like DeFifts gaming and ai so we could give the best possible experience to

not only crypto users and businesses but also to the web to users and entities to join this this world and go beyond traditional ways of generating more revenues or growing their brand in terms of business relations. So yeah, thank you for having me today. Yeah, happy to have you and I appreciate the intro. The audience of this show is definitely mostly folks who are looking at the macro market at large. I'm sure a lot of listeners who are tuning in have um seen different game 5 projects pop up or different web 3 games maybe as we're starting the ama here describe what what

makes world of deepens unique compared to these other games or platforms that people may have heard of across the market yeah uh more than happy to give like a short overview, just for everyone to understand on what we are doing. So when we started, let's say, working on the project more than three, almost three years ago, we saw a gap into the market that there weren't a lot of quality gaming platforms so far. There were only Play to Earn and so on. And what we're trying to build

is to bring the same Web2 enjoyable gaming experience to Web3. So we could bridge the Web2 and Web3 gap and bring as many Web2 users to the Web3 space. So this stands as one of our main focuses. We have achieved that really good during the past year right now being just sharing some stats about 900 000 daily active users and monthly roughly 2.8 million

which is really really huge for us and for a gaming platform. We are a multi-chain platform so we chose to be that way because we didn't want to have any blocking point for the users to join our game. We are leading many networks that we are available on, like BNB Chain, Taiko, PBMB, Base, Manta, Core, Viction, Scale, and others as well. And we aim to expand into many different networks to not have, let's say those blocking points and to get everyone a chance to join our platform. Some of the major highlights is that we got included or featured two times in Binance Research Report, one in September and the last one in December, on 31st of December being, let's say, one of the most

contributors to the Web3 gaming space. And also we got featured on Binance Wallet under the BNB chain ecosystem. So the idea is that we love to see that Binance appreciate what we have been building and what we are offering into the market so far to bring as many users as we can to join, let's say, the Web3 space and to have an enjoyable gaming experience. But not only that, because I mentioned before that we are not only providing gaming, but also DeFi, NFTs, and AI integrated into our game. the main idea is that almost every week right now we are got we got featured by coin market carb and up rather uh let's say reports as leading games uh game five projects uh plus uh the recent launch on steam marketplace it's a huge step for us after being launched on Epic Games, because I think that there is a huge possibility, not only in crypto users, but also to the web too as well. You mentioned being featured in two different Binance research reports.

And my understanding is that BNB chain is also one of the backers of the project. Could you speak a little bit more towards who some of the other backers and investors are and also some of the other key partnerships? Yeah, for sure. So during the last year, we got more than 40 partnerships, let's say, or even projects that collaborated with us in many different areas. But I want to mention that one of our strongest and strategic partnerships is with BNB Chain, as they have been helping us a lot during different activities, collaborations, campaigns, and many other things so far. Even, let's say, different partners that we have been collaborating with, like networks that we integrated, like most recently, Say, not Chain, but also we even we launched, let's say, our own token, WOD,

recently with Trust Wallet Launchpool. Even some of other partners that we included are, let's say, some of the biggest projects in the Web3 space so far. And you can find, let's say, all of them in our website easily. But also we have been recently doing a lot of campaigns with them and a lot of new activities will come into the future. You mentioned the WOD token, W-O-D.

What's the utility within the gameplay? Yeah, very good question. So as I mentioned before, we are not just a gaming platform. So we are trying to merge everything. And the utilities of the token are really uh not focus focusing only on gaming but also uh they are on different parts as well one of the main utilities of course is uh in-game economy as what is being used to purchase you know different skins and fts or even participate in different events within the game. So this is one of the main utilities.

Another one is DeFi. So we have integrated DeFi into our game. So players or users can now easily stake their assets to earn more rewards, not only to our website, but what we're trying to do, and this is something innovative that we're somehow offering is to offer the in-game defy integration so they will be able to take their assets directly within the game without the need to to go to our website or any different platforms uh another thing is that we have our own NFT marketplace where another utility for the WOT token is being introduced as players can now trade, sell, and buy within our marketplace.

We have our own governance that we launched where all of the players right now can decide for the future of the gameplay, of the game itself, by being, let's say, part of different decisions. Recently, we announced the first ever Metaverse launch pool being launched in World of Debian. So this is another utility for the token. But also other utilities include world domain IDs, which we have collaborated with Space ID. include WOD domain IDs, which we have collaborated with SpaceID.

And last but not least, we are using the WOD token in utilities for the fees and also different incentives and rewards for the users with the campaigns we host with our partners. If you look on Cato AI, which I've been using lately as a tool

to kind of see what crypto Twitter is talking about, the AI sector has dominated the conversation, not only just with Twitter posts, but even a lot of the spaces that we're doing. How are you guys integrating AI within the gameplay? Yeah, very, very nice question, to be honest. And this is what we have been focusing in the past, as we have implemented some AI features, basic one, within our game. But this year, we have a really good focus, especially with some collaboration with our partners to introduce AI, further advance AI within our game.

And this means in many different areas. For example, one of the most important things is education and learning academy that we're building within the game. So Web2 players right now that we will be listed on Steam and every Web2 player can download the game they don't know anything about crypto space they don't know what the blockchain is they don't know what exchanges uh what the token is how to make a transaction and so on so what we're trying to

do with ai integration within the game is that uh we get them on board step by step, not only in a simple way to watch a video or learn, let's say, read an article or something like that. But we will have a museum and learning academy within the game that can give quests directly to the players so they can learn step by step, for example, what a wallet is, what an exchange is, how to deposit, for example, what token on a certain exchange,

and a lot more. And this will come in an enjoyable gameplay, which will be also powered by AI. AI is also integrated within the NPCs on our game, which will be, let's say, providing real-time interactions to all of the players and help them within the in-game journey to fight bosses and so on. Last but not least is that one of our NFT collections called Cats and Watches Society, or Cows, has been integrated directly within the game. So every owner of this NFT

can have the exact replica of it within a game and is AI powered, which helps the main character or the player within different quests within a game, within, let's say, to fight bosses or complete different events or challenges within the game and a lot more. So this year is somehow focusing just to provide really good gaming content,

but also to further enhance the AI advancements within our game. Wonderful. So being listed on Steam is obviously a huge milestone for any game, let alone a Web3 game, and probably a huge funnel for you guys to onboard people from Web2 into Web3. What other plans do you guys have to really accelerate that onboarding? Yeah, you know, so the listing on Steam

happened like a few days ago. So this was one of the major milestones we achieved so far and is the cornerstone for what is going to come next. And we have some really exciting, let's say, features or plans in our roadmap to further enhance our commitment for the Web3 gaming, but also to our platform. We are going to release the multiplayer mode, the PvE and PvE events within our game to make a more connection to the players to give that collaborative feeling to it, which will help the game even grow more,

especially from players that are coming from Web 2.0, because they are somehow used to play or to have the same gameplay in Web 2.0 gaming, and why not to have it in Web 3.0 again? But also, we're going to have some, as I mentioned before, AI advancements within the game. The main idea is that we're going to offer some exciting campaigns in the near future with some of the biggest names in the industry so far that are coming really soon.

We're going to have some new exchange listing for the WOT token, which also is going to tie up with to increase WOT token utilities within the game and a lot more features related to education and learning academy, which we are offering right now as a possibility to onboard as many users as we can to our game. And we have been doing this really good so far. We have a really good traction and hopefully we can grow even more this year as the main idea is that we love what we're doing in the gaming space.

We have a lot of experience within Web3, but also Web2 space. We have, let's say, 26 people full-time working within the project two headquarters one in romania and the other one in albania but also remote workers all around the world and we expect to grow even more uh during this uh this time we have about uh 4 000 listeners in the space right now. And as we're wrapping up, what would your call to action be for them that they can get involved in right now? I assume one is actually playing the game.

I'd love for you to give an overview of what a user can expect if signing up and playing, but maybe taking a look at the token as well. Yeah, sure. So to every new listener listeners or to everyone right now uh in order to to get on board that in world of defense is like in any other web 2 games you don't we don't have any poking point for the users to connect their wallet and to play the game you just need to create an account using your email and password, and you are free to play, enjoy the gameplay, and all of the features that we offer right now within the game.

But also, at the moment, you want to get interacted in Web3 world, like you get to know step-by-step the Web3 space. You can connect your wallet, purchase the dedicated skin or NFT, or even engage with our products that are somehow innovative into the space participate in d5 or even in decision making in governance but also what is most important that the launch pool the first one in metaverse is coming soon uh and uh the experience is any other web to game so So somehow most of our community compares us with World of Warcraft, but in Web3, and that's what somehow what we're trying to build,

the same features to provide an enjoyable gaming experience to the players. In regards to the token, you can just, let's say, feel free to use it and to enjoy the utilities within our ecosystem. You can get it on different exchanges like KuCoin, Mexi, Gate, also on PackingSwap, but also on TrustWallet. As I already mentioned, that token was launched by TrustWallet Launchpool, which gave us success to more than 160 million users worldwide. But also, I will tell you to stay tuned on our official social media channels for the upcoming campaigns and a lot of more activities that are coming in the near future. Awesome. Well, if you're tuning in, make sure to give World of Deepians a follow. Their accounts up here with a nice gold check.

So you can click on their profile. And in their profile, they have the website as well. I know that I was able to go on there and see a lot of the clips of the gameplay as well. And you can also sign up on their website there. So World of Deepians, I really appreciate you guys joining today. And just as a closer, I just want to note that IBC is hiring for writers, journalists, and moderators. So if you're looking to join a really great team, or if you're a

project wanting to work with Mario or IBC, make sure that you DM Mario's account there. His team is watching the DMs all day. So if you're a project, wanting to do an AMA, just like the World of Deepians just did, or if you're just out there looking for work in Web3, make sure to DM the account and they will certainly get back to you. So World of Deepians, I appreciate you guys joining. Make sure that you give them a follow, give the other speakers a follow here as well. And I know it's a bloody Monday, everybody in the crypto markets, but hope everyone enjoys their day. And if know it's a bloody Monday, everybody in the crypto markets, but hope everyone enjoys their day. And if you do need some time, take some time away from your screen, because I truly do believe that we are still in a bull market and that there's green

horizons not too far away. So thanks everyone for joining and have a great Monday.