The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin Dumps As Halving Nears. Why? | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

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so tempted not to see you maybe you see me out the window taste taste of your own medicine come to the fuck come to fucking dubai couldn't get out of the airport to say hi and then just leave to singapore this is the worst city this is the worst city on the entire planet that nothing could possibly be worse than whatever you guys have done to every visitor for the last 36 hours i'm supposed to actually be at dinner right now. You probably too with Scaramucci. Do you know what he did? What did he do?

He landed last night around the same time as me. He looked out the window. He got to customs. He looked at the airport and he said, fuck you guys. I'm out and got on a plane home, which is exactly what I was threatening to do at the time. I sat at the airport for six hours until I bribed a guy with a Toyota Tacoma with big wheels to let me drive his car through the apocalypse to my hotel till five o'clock.

So I want to, hold on, let me dig into this. First, Scaramucci went back home? He literally took his like 15-hour flight apparently and then turned around, booked another flight and flew home. Which is exactly what he wanted to do he's in the states right now that that that is that is the uh unconfirmed rumor did you fly there's no way and he said and he said to gorov and i quote your your city your city did not let me in and turned around all right so just for anyone that doesn't know um dubai is underwater everyone there's actually people that died i

didn't know it was that bad there's about 12 deaths so so hard to go out to the families there and there's others that complain because they're pussies and one of them's on stage with us yes bro let me tell you what happened okay this is the biggest storm they've had here in 75 years And there's others that complain because they're pushies and one of them is on stage with us. Yes. Let me tell you what happened. Okay. This is the biggest storm they've had here in 75 years, but there's no drainage in this city at all. So once the water's here, it's very hard for it to leave. But the real story is that they seed the clouds to make more rain and they seeded the rain clouds and created the storm that has flooded everyone. Correct? I cannot confirm

or deny. I can neither confirm or deny. What I can tell you is that Rolls Royces perform horribly in rain because of all the cars I've seen drowned and screwed in the city, it's almost all Rolls Royces. Even the SUVs for the luxury cars. But outside your building i saw in a row a ferrari lamborghini and rolls royce all completely trashed people don't i mean this is it is the apocalypse here it is i am legend it is absolutely bananas today we tried to go back out and go to a conference where you and i were supposed to do a uh you're not supposed to

do a fireside chat i went for the fireside chat from your building uh four hours round trip to be there 17 minutes and make it back in time to do my youtube show it's going really good here i would say you didn't go by the way i didn't go to the i didn't go because there were no cars available and i was you know i'm not gonna say i was happy there were no cars available but i was like fuck cool i have an excuse not to get out into the into the abyss yesterday while you were stuck in the airport everyone my team was stuck everywhere by the way so bob was yeah it was literally everybody everywhere it was really crazy i feel bad for people not everywhere i was home in the hotel because i live in a hotel complex i was home and i went down to the hotel cafe chilled worked had a nice meal so i was fine scott just to

to kind of let you know but you were you were dying on on from from you know i'm pretty much depression in the airport almost took a flight back your voice the airport by the way ran out of food in case you guys were wondering so my my uh dinner and it is what it is but i literally ate a snickers and how'd you how'd you get out how'd you get on a truck by you know, made somebody an offer they couldn't refuse. How much did you pay? There was no cars leaving or coming to the airport. And some guy dropped somebody off and he kind of knew a guy that knew.

Yeah, the thing. You know, we did the thing. Did you pay anything? You want to hear the craziest part? Since everybody's really interested. So I was sitting with a guy from Point72, you know, Stevie Cohen, the hedge fund on the plane. It was all crypto guys. And I was like, dude, it looks really bad down here. Let's, uh, he was like, I'm going to go ahead and book a airport hotel, which I told you. Right. So I'm staying in your hotel. I knew there was no way I was going to get there. So I

booked a hotel in the airport. He did the same thing, same hotel. So we exit the plane. Obviously they shuffle us through customs to baggage claim of course right and we get there and we say someone where's the hotel they say it's it's in the terminal and i said but you guys made us clear immigration and uh you know like you can't get your bags unless you're clear immigration they're like no you should have just checked in and left your bag till tomorrow um because now you can't. So we spent actually the first two hours trying to bribe customs officials, which does not work in Dubai, by the way.

They're very honest. To get back just to the hotel, we ended up just sitting on a bench. Great. It's a good day. Okay. Should we talk about crypto, maybe? Something?

I don't know, man. Like this story is pretty fascinating. Today, the roads are still flooded, so no one's going to events. And I'm sure a lot of people listening are talking 2049. You know, I missed the fireside chat. Hold on.

Did you end up having that fireside chat with Gaurav and pretend that Gaurav was you? Yes, I pretended that he was you. I literally pretended that he was you. When we got on stage, I made them announce him as you. And then I called him your very tan, shorter AI. And I had a conversation about decentralized journalism, pretending I was talking to you with someone else for like nine people in the audience because nobody could get there and then I came

back well I'm glad you enjoyed it well now we can talk about crypto is anyone else in Dubai by the way anyone else on stage Leila you're in Dubai Leila hey Mario no I'm not in Dubai and I'm so happy I didn't go you know I was I was thinking of going. And you know it's like it's it's like it wasn't meant to be you know the market crashed i know people had issues flying in because of the the rockets in the air with iran and israel and then this happens and one of the weirdest things and i saw people asking questions about this twitter why and how did the water just like disappear like it just disappeared overnight. I don't know.

There's still a lot of water. I don't know what water is disappearing. I don't know what water is disappearing. So much water. But I can't get out of my hotel to the city. There's so much water. Yeah. There's certain areas that have cleared,

but like by and large, you drive through and there's like entire highways that are, you know, like cars are literally covered. It's important to point out, it is a desert and, you know, things get hot in a desert and the heat does evaporate the water. So, that helps and they pump it out because they got a lot of money to buy the pumps. Yeah, I think it's a very important lesson that you should always try to use science

to manipulate the weather. It goes great. All right, well, you can talk about it once you leave Dubai, Scott. Let's go to the topic of the hour is the markets. I'm sure you've been following the markets since you had nothing to do in the airport. We talked about it yesterday. They just don't look as, oh, wow, the greed index is down significantly. I'm looking, it's down at 60, just barely at greed levels.

I know you don't give a fuck much about that index. You're too smart for this. It's useful. I think it's useful. No, I think it's useful. But there's other indicators as well. I know you don't give a fuck much about that index it took you know too smart for this But either there's other indicators as well So obviously we invest heavily in projects and like the the hype time I'm not saying it's a bad thing But the hype type project launches where every projects doing a 10x those days have have not ended They've just quieted down. Obviously we had I did a space earlier for Omnia which listed a

3 billion they did a minus launch pad we did a countdown space for and they they wanted a three billion dollar fdv which is insane um and then we did another one early before that for a launch pad on merlin merlin chain and but they only did like a one point something x like a barely barely above uh above launch price um which and i'm looking at other projects that have launched in the last few days, ones we invested in and ones we haven't. And it's just a lot quieter on that front.

No more meme coins have eased up as well. I know there's a big launch today that'll be coming on later in the space on base chain. Base chain is getting a lot of traction. But the markets have slowed. And that's a good thing. And maybe, Scott, it would be good to get your thoughts on the market since you haven't been on the space for fucking two months. It would be good to get your thoughts on the markets and why I'm sure you agree with Dave Weisberger and others that this is a good thing.

It's good for markets to consolidate, for things to ease up, for this to be a long bull cycle rather than a short-lived massive hype. Go ahead, man. I don't think this is uncommon at all. I think that price is ranging, first of all. Basically, if you open a chart between $74,000-ish and $60,000, and the way that human behavior works and the reason that these things exist on a chart in theory is because humans are very predictable.

They're panicking when we get to the low of the range and then it bounces and liquidates the people who short later, you know, or exit the market. And then you get to the top and everybody gets euphoric. You know, listen, a month ago, we talked about this. We were having meme coin spaces every five minutes. And I kept saying this, I don't know what price is going to do, but I kept saying like, we have incredible froth in meme coins, right? When you get that meme coin insanity, it's usually at least a local top signal, in my opinion. If you looked at any charts, everything was massively overbought. You know, if you're looking at RSI, bearish divergences everywhere, just all of the insanity that if you took the emotion out of it, you would say this is probably a good time for this to pause.

And to be quite honest, now, it's almost like I'm starting to feel the opposite of that while things are now getting oversold. And so, maybe that's what's causing the range lows and to bounce around 60. But I think that we made a new all-time high before the halving. That's something to celebrate. We can analyze what that means for the future of the market to death. I don't think anybody knows. I take it as a positive when price goes up unexpectedly. So, I'll take that as a win. And I think we're going to get a nice long cycle. And just like every other cycle, we'll get these significant corrections and long periods of consolidation that shake people out because they're bored you know so i i don't think you know my base case a month ago with all of that i sent this tweet you know and obviously like you could tell just from the reactions people didn't want to hear it is maybe now we go back to the normal four-year cycle you know we have

our having we have a really boring summer and then all of a sudden price goes up in the fall i have no idea if that's what's gonna happen that's what's happening every other time summer fall can you use months so i can relate yeah so listen the last having was around this you know kind of same time of year then summer was extremely low volatility price kind of dipped and then in the last two havings we've effectively i think i don't remember two ago but you know you get like kind of up only in september and october summer is historically boring for markets in general but bitcoin I think I don't remember two ago, but you know, you get like kind of up only in September and October. Summer is historically boring for markets in general, but Bitcoin specifically. And, you know, people get excited about the halving.

Then you realize that it takes a really long time for that to matter, right? For supply reduction to matter is not the thing that happens the day the halving, right? Yeah. And I'm looking at other reports here so we got um a jp morgan saying bitcoin's outperformance means some of the expected post-harving rally may have come early as so jp morgan knows that mining stocks have slumped ahead of the bitcoin halving the bank favors riot platform and iris energy bitcoin's outperformance may mean that part of the typical post-harving rally has been pulled forward uh let me try to get an exact what appears yeah and

goldman sachs goldman sachs also had a report i believe today that said by the way they believe don't look at past cycles because this time has been different because of the new time i'm the metric but then you got bernstein bernstein says bitcoin's bullish trajectory to resume post halving and still has a target they have a target of 150 and bernstein also said by miners like very directly they said by miners ahead of the halving right now. We expect Bitcoin's bullish trajectory to resume post-halving. Yeah, exactly. When the mining hash rates have adjusted and ETF inflows resume back.

Because today is another day of negative inflows. Oh, sorry. Today, another day of net outflows. Further integration of spot bitcoin etfs with wire houses rias rias will continue to provide structural demand for bitcoin in our view we continue to expect bitcoin to touch a cycle high of 150k by 2025 i think the the the expectations of when we'll hit that all-time high or a new high or hit six figures we've kind of changed and if you see yesterday's space people were still bullish but a lot more conservative from like just a week ago it's crazy how how big yeah i mean that's just

yeah emotion nothing's changed some of the smartest people um you just cannot um avoid getting uh having him you know kind of the negative emotion i wanted to ask james but he just disappeared i wanted to ask him specifically about the etfs but i'm inviting him again if he can come back up but yeah we had eric yesterday we had eric as well talking about the hong kong etf but he's just not that you know a lot of people are excited about bitcoin and etfs in hong kong but the inflows expected from they were pretty minuscule according to to Bertruma's expectations. He expected about 500 million, I think, in flows, which would be a successful ETF in Hong Kong.

But I'll just send the invite to Eric as well. But I'll let you go to the panel, Scott. Yeah, I mean, I think we should just see what people's thoughts are on obviously the topic at hand. We have the having a couple of days ago and I missed yesterday. So maybe we can jump start start there. I mean, Simon, what do you think as far as what you've seen with the cycle where we stand? And, you know, could the top be in as people are calling for? Yeah, I think it's really hard to separate Bitcoin macro and geopolitics at the moment. So in terms of if we're looking at these shorter term cycles, so much is dependent upon the war situation.

And then obviously commodities reactions to that and then the Fed's reaction to that. So I think it's very hard to just think about. So I still believe we'll be at all-time highs by, you know, at some point this year. But, you know, immediately in the aftermath of halving, you've got Israel's reaction. If Israel and Iran go into a tit-for-tat, you know, that can escalate to Russia. So that can get pretty nasty pretty quickly. But obviously, the immediate thing in terms of commodities would be the reaction of gold and oil. Gold is near all-time highs. Oil is just under $90 a barrel.

It took $120 a barrel to break the U.S. banking system in 2023. And so obviously, that led to spikes, you know, hikes in rates and an inflation recycle. All of that is on the table. And so I think the story of how Bitcoin reacts in the general commodities market, and then you've got the Bitcoin halving story in relation to mining stocks, because they've had a significant correction. I think everybody chose the ETF because the last time, there were very few public Bitcoin mining stocks during the last halving. So no one, there was massive uncertainty around that. They chose a leverage play in micro strategy or they chose just to go to the ETF and get Bitcoin direct without all the leverage. So those have significantly corrected. Marathons come from, I think it's like about three and a

half billion from a peak of six, six and a half billion or something like that. So you've got to take the general stock market in relation to how they perform. But I do think that Bitcoin is going to become a commodity play in all those stories, whether it's inflation, whether it's war, whether it's rate hikes or even rate cuts. I still see a new all time high for Bitcoin at some point this year. But yeah, the immediate aftermath, I don't think you can take Bitcoin in isolation. I think you've got to look at the macro and geopolitics that will determine the short-term trends. Yeah, James, I'm going to go to Tom and Leah right after and continue the price conversation. But James, Tom, I know both of you actually had mic issues because Spaces is glitchy. But James, just wanted to ask what you think right now with the ETF flows or give us a quick update there where we stand and then we'll go back to the price

conversation. Yeah. I mean, real quick, I'll say that a month ago, I was scheduled to be landing in Dubai around the same time you were, Scott. But I had to cancel because those business class flights would have burned through way too much of my travel budget for the year. So I was very upset to not be going to Token 2049 about three days ago. And I have completely, completely changed my- Consider yourself blessed, my friend. I would have loved to see you, but I wouldn't have seen you anyways, because we'd be screaming from hotel windows. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think Eric did a good job yesterday from what I heard, but essentially, yeah, the flows, they're flat for the most part.

People are like acting like it's the end of the world that flows are flat in some cases online. It's kind of hilarious to witness. There are going to be days where these ETFs see like significant outflows, not just from GBTC, but once these things get more stabilized and more settled, that's going to happen. That said, right now, we're still in a point where a lot of these platforms still haven't like fully signed off on these things being able to be

solicited to their clients or recommended to their clients. So for the most part, any platform, unless you're like a completely independent advisor with your own like back office and doing different things. If you're like at a UBS, a Merrill, Morgan Stanley, Raymond James, one of those shops, for the most part, you can't recommend these. Yeah, you can probably buy these for your clients if they're specifically asking for it or jump through special hoots, but you can't be like, hey, I think this fits in your portfolio. So that stuff is still going to come online over the rest of the year. So it's not completely done

yet. That said, most of the stuff now we've seen has been a largely retail story. And it's been some of those independent advisors. That said, I mean, they've taken in $12.5 billion. I mean, even with the outflow yesterday was basically nothing. I mean, it's essentially flat compared to the numbers that we've been seeing. So at some point, we will see meaningful outflows, just not yet. And then I think Eric probably did a good job explaining the Hong Kong stuff. People are way blowing out of proportion. The Bitcoin ETFs now are larger in the US than the entire Hong Kong ETF market. So like people acting like this is going to be some massive deal, at least in the near term. I mean, obviously,

Hong Kong's a financial hub. This could be like the Asian financial rails like the Asian equivalent, but at some point, it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. So the other thing is people like, well, it's going to open things to mainland Chinese investors. No, it's not. Not anytime remotely soon, right? These are not going to be in that Connect program. Mainland Chinese investors are still restricted from owning stuff like this. So yes, that could change, but it seems very unlikely in your term. And just James, can you, sorry, can you just go back? I missed the first part,

glitched for me as well. You're talking about, I think you said a comment like we're going to see more meaningful Bitcoin outflows, ETF outflows, or I misheard you. Yeah, so I'm just saying at some point, like I'm not saying this is going to happen over this timeframe or whatever. But like people are freaking out now about like these ETFs having zero flows on different days. But like at some point in the future, these things are going to have meaningful outflows on a on a given day or a week or monthly time what would trigger what would trigger those outflows so there's it depends right so one it could be panic selling which i tend to not think is going to happen a lot of these types of investors most of the time are just buying and they're going to sit and hold um i think some of these etfs will be very highly uh advantage trading vehicles but also if you're going to have these ETFs, right,

if you're an advisor or somebody who's buying this as a slug of a portfolio, like 3% or 5% or what have you, if this thing runs up 100%, like it probably has in some cases for the people who bought really early on when these ETFs first launched, now you're way overweight the position of what your goal was the portfolio. So after like at a quarterly rebalance, you might expect to see some sort of outflows if it's gone up really well, or the exact opposite if it's gone down. So there's like two competing factors here, like are people buying as it's collapsing, which is what these ETF, like if you're doing it as

a slug of a portfolio are likely to do, or are they fear selling? And it basically depends like how much of the the overall market is these people that are retail and in it for short-term stuff versus these long-term buying old investors and we don't have enough data to know exactly how that's going to play out when you say when you say fee selling do you just mean like a massive correction and then the ria start freaking out i don't think the rias will freak out i think the problem is right now a lot of this is people that were buying these things in their own brokerage accounts or their own IRAs or some other tax-deferred vehicle. Or people that were like, oh, I want to buy Bitcoin and now there's an ETF, so I'm going to buy it.

And then if it dumps, they might sell. But like the RAs, they're not putting 30%, 40% of their portfolio or anything like that into these types of ETFs. They're going to be a lot more nuanced and calm and collected about their positions and they'll rebalance to a target allocation. So they have an allocation they want to hit. And if they rebalance quarterly, semi-annually, or even annually, they're going to rebalance every time they rebalance the portfolio and either buy more of these ETFs or sell some of the ETFs to get it back down to the weight that they have a target allocation for. Scott, do you have any other questions?

No, I think that makes sense. I would just add before we go to Tom and Leah that I would bet that most people who have bought a Bitcoin spot ETF and put it into like a retirement account or something don't even know that there's a correction. I think we take for granted that we're all in the echo chamber and we check price every day, but I think a lot of people just start checking it at all. They take it quarterly or every six months. I'm just saying there's a huge narrative for us. But like looking and seeing the Bitcoin 64 or whatever, if you bought it at 69, it's a non-event to a person who bought an ETF and put it in their IRA.

Yeah, but those corrections, no. But I think bigger corrections, I think either you cannot avoid the headlines. I think this is where it could play a role. Yes, true. Yeah, no, but I think bigger corrections, I think either you cannot avoid the headlines. So I think this is where it could play a role. Yes, true. Yeah, no, exactly. That's what I was going to say. I don't think these 5%, 10% drawbacks, what have you. What drawback, James?

What drawback do you think will have an impact on ETF outflows? Like a significant impact? Anyone in crypto has experienced 50% to 80% drawbacks, right? So they know what is coming. And you'd like I'd like to think a lot of these people, particularly advisors have looked at this and know that those drawbacks are common and likely to happen over different cycles. But these retail investors, the people who've just been hearing by hearing Bitcoin and now see an ETF and are buying it that don't understand that these things could be subject to a 70% correction or 50, even 50% correction, like they might panic sell. But I'm with what Scott was

saying. I think most people like a lot of this money came in before it even crossed 60. So for the most part, people are still net positive if they bought these ETFs, right? So they're not looking at this like, oh my God, this is a horrible correction. They're probably not, they don't even care as much as the more crypto native crowd that is very much intraday in the weeds looking at prices every single day. But those corrections is pretty much the end of the bull market. If you see a 50 to 80% drawdown, that is capitulation in a year or whatever. Yeah, 50 to 80%. Yeah. But maybe like I think the 30, we've seen 30% drawbacks pretty much every cycle that continue into bull markets. So something like that might scare somebody.

But for the most part, that happens every time. And how quick do you think those outflows will be? How quick would they end up capitulating? I have no idea. We don't have enough data on exactly what this makeup is. And like I said, right now, I think it's a lot of retail and then also some independent advisors, maybe some institutions that wanted exposure. But we don't have the massive level of advisor interest that we're used to seeing in different ETFs. And also, when we look at ETFs, if we look at like S&P 500 ETFs, SPY, which I'm sorry for people who don't care about this, but SPY is a trading vehicle. Like

that thing trades like a trading vehicle. When things are doing well, it has money pouring in. When things are doing bad, it tends to see significant outflows. IVV from BlackRock, the same index, has a little bit more nuance. It has a mix between long-term holders and these traders. And then VU from Vanguard, again, all the same exact products. VU almost never sees outflows, comparatively speaking, to IVV and SPY. So it's not even just the type of ETF. It's also the ETF itself. Some different tickers that do the same stuff are going to trade differently. So it looks like iBit is becoming the trading vehicle.

How much of that is going to be buy and hold? Whereas some of these other products are going to be much more buy and hold type products. But we don't have enough data to know exactly how that's going to play out and what to look at. No, I appreciate that overview, James. Any other points on the ETF, Scott? Because I want to move

into a few questions on not only the markets, but also the Bitcoin ecosystem that I'm getting more and more bullish on. Cool. Well, Scott, just FYI, if anyone's listening, Scott has gone down to get a car. He got to get a car because he's sitting... Listen to me, Scott. You're going... You're stubborn.

You're sitting there complaining for the first 10 minutes of the space about being stuck in the airport for floods, And now you decide to get in a car, go into the unknown to go to a dinner of a friend of ours. So if you get stuck in the water, yeah, but I'm in the safety of my own home. Do not message me if you're stuck in the road, just to be clear, you could message me in the airport. That's fine. You didn't know. Now, you know, and you ended up going, do not ping me and start complaining about you being stuck in the flood.

I've learned how to bribe locals for rides. I'm good. Okay. Beautiful. I want to go to Isabel and Iago is there as well. I was going to expect you to come on, Iago. It's perfect timing. Isabel, we're hopefully going to start working together as well.

You're very deep in the Bitcoin ecosystem. And maybe a quick 10-second overview on your background there. And more importantly, start digging into the to the bitcoin ecosystem and and i think we had one of our speakers in the previous space the first place we did today the countdown space was for a launchpad in the bitcoin ecosystem and um one of the speakers joa who scott knows well so they expect a lot of tvl to kind of um to to kind of move away from from other other other chains and get into the Bitcoin ecosystem. Are we starting to see that shift? Do you agree with Joa's view and give us a bit of an overview on ordinals and L2s and Bitcoin?

And Bitcoin DeFi as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, this won't be a surprise to anyone on this stage, right? But for a long time, I think Bitcoin was seen as sort of this inert sort of Bitcoin, excuse me, boomer coin. It can't really do anything, no utility. It's not good for anything other than being a store of value. And that narrative really shifted after the launch of the Ordinals protocol last year. So a little bit of my background, I've been in marketing communications for digital assets companies for a long time. And last February, I had sort of a

life-changing success, which is I was able to manage the comms launch for the Ordinals Protocol under Casey Rotemore, who is basically just, you know, an independent developer who built this thing effectively in his basement and kind of changed the face of Bitcoin permanently. So yeah, so since the launch of the Ordinals Protocol, which sort of called into question this idea that Bitcoin has no utility, right, outside of being a store of value, he made NFTs possible on Bitcoin, layer one Bitcoin, native Bitcoin, real Bitcoin, no side chains, no funny business. And that was just a massive, massive innovation that's bringing a ton of investor interest into the space. I think now you're going to see a lot more interest in... I mean, you are already seeing

a ton of more interest in terms of what else could be possible on Bitcoin, right? NFTs are possible on Bitcoin. What else could be possible? And I think, you know, L2s are a big part of the story for investors right now. L2s on Bitcoin, how do we solve the bridging problem? And we're all in the Ordinals ecosystem following the Havning very, very closely. Ordinals have a huge impact on fee markets. And so, you know, and there's a bunch of really interesting Orinals projects that are going to be launching, happening that are going to boost fees. So yeah, we're watching that very closely.

Well, again, as I said, Scott, I think you're, or you dropped out because you decided to fucking go on a ride. But Scott will come back as a co-host, just if we can send him an invite. But we're investing heavily. I think I talked about the one we launched today where there's another big one called Portal DeFi, which is the DeFi on Bitcoin.

And Iago, obviously, you're the go-to person on Bitcoin for a while on this show. Maybe get your thoughts on what Isabel was talking about and why should people, why should investors, why should, the weird thing about Bitcoin is you've got on Solana this huge ecosystem of dApps and memes and tokens and users and developers. And then on Ethereum, which is even bigger, you've got an even bigger ecosystem of dApps and memes and tokens and users and developers. And you've got the Sol token and the ETH token and all of those things combined, both ecosystems combined, are still smaller than Bitcoin is without any of those things. And just as Isabel was pointing out, there's a major, major change happening in Bitcoin right now. It's all because of the introduction of Taproot. There was a major upgrade three years ago to Bitcoin called Taproot. Taproot introduced new ways

of performing transactions on Bitcoin. And then exactly nothing happened for two years. It just took developers a really long time to figure out how to use Taproot. And Casey figured out the first, but certainly not the last major use case. So he introduced NFTs. And Casey figured out the first, but certainly not the last, major use case. So he introduced NFTs overnight.

Bitcoin showed its power overnight. Ordinals became the largest NFT market. The most valuable NFTs were ordinals. And this has been the situation up until now. In just a few days, we've got the Bitcoin halving. With that, there'll be a token standard for Bitcoin called Runes introduced. And that also is a brainchild of Casey. It's kind of like the ERC-20 moment on Ethereum, but for Bitcoin. So potentially very, very significant.

And now with Taproot... What was the one you just mentioned? Sorry. So Runes. Runes, okay. significant and now with taproot what was what was the ones you just mentioned sorry so runes yeah so so you can think of runes as like erc20 but for bitcoin now it's a token standard it's going to allow multiple different types of tokens to be created and traded uh on bitcoin and then um with rollups there's now also the introduction of smart contracts onto Bitcoin which will make runes and ordinals way more useful. Your thoughts, Jago, your thoughts on Merlin Chain?

Honestly, I don't... I struggle to see the connection between Merlin Chain and Bitcoin. It's a chain built on aetherium But they've managed to pull in a lot of BTC. So I think it remains to be seen what will happen How does it work and by that just for the audience if I'm geeking out too much on

Bitcoin, let me know in the comments like say if you want to move on to another topic But I was fascinated by the Bitcoin ecosystem. bitcoin ecosystem how would you explain merlin chain uh merlin chain is a polygon cdk chain so it's a roll-up built on the polygon on ethereum uh standard um and um currently it's uh it's also not fully live. What they did is they had a points program that ran, and it's just basically ending now, in which a large amount of BTC were deposited in order to earn points, which basically go towards an aird some of the people who have moved a lot of BTC in to earn the points are probably going to move out to try and earn points elsewhere but Merlin have done an amazing job of marketing and

I think it will be interesting to see what they do but to me they're not really a Bitcoin project so you don't consider it a Bitcoin project yeah but how so you don't consider it a Bitcoin project, can you play devil's advocate and sorry Scott or anyone if I'm geeking again, if I'm going too deep into Bitcoin

let me know but what's their selling point how would they say they're unleashing Bitcoin's potential so they're saying that their goal is eventually to become a Bitcoin roll-up

and to allow trading of Bitcoin and to allow dApps on Bitcoin. How exactly what their roadmap is, I don't think they've revealed. And I think a lot of teams that are working right now on technology to allow for roll-ups and bitcoin and so you know i know of 50 different teams that are working to

bring roll-ups to bitcoin and in all likelihood in in a few months as the technology becomes available that's going to become the biggest story it's going to be bitcoin now has roll-ups it has smart contracts it has tokens it has nfds it has everything and there's going to be Bitcoin now has roll ups. It has smart contracts. It has tokens. It has NFTs. It has everything. And there's going to be this giant sucking sound of this massive sort of vacuum of opportunity. Right. Getting, you know a big part of what drew capital into that uh universe really early on was you know specifically the ability to quote unquote stake ordinals right so it wasn't just bitcoin that you could get these points for it was the big you know splashy new ordinals collections that you could get points for so So, you know, NodeMonks, which is the biggest, I believe the biggest by market cap of the art inscriptions projects on ordinals, right? Like, I think 10% of the supply of NodeMonks is currently wrapped up, locked up on Merlin. And they're, you know, folks are effectively, quote, staking these ordinals to get yield or

in the form of these points that they're distributing. Right. So I think and they have a very I mean, to Yago's point, they have a really like DGN style marketing campaign. They're very like, you know, it's like wizards and it's super consumer friendly, very retail focused. And so I think that's why they were able to, you know, just lock up a ton of capital. Let me go to just back to the market, Scott, unless you have more questions on Bitcoin. Cool, Scott. Really great insight, man.

I appreciate it. I've got a question. Yeah, go ahead, Simon. What's the, what's the big difference with Rune? Like,

how does that compare to like BRC20? And what's the, what's the thing people are excited about with Rune? That's to Yago. So there already was an attempt, mostly as a joke, to create tokens on Bitcoin, which kind of exploded. It was BRC20 and was created by Domo. And what it basically did is it took ordinals and sort of chopped them up into little pieces. So you took these NFTs,

you chopped them up into a lot of little pieces and you got fungible tokens. But you couldn't really trade a single fungible token. You had to move them in chunks. It was very, very awkward. You couldn't use multisig with it. As a result, a lot of what was developed around it was pretty insecure. Runes is a much cleaner protocol.

It's lower cost in terms of memory on the Bitcoin chain. It's cheaper to transact. It's far more flexible. And it's easier to develop on. And so it's a much – it's actually – it's not like a hacky standard. It's an actual standard built from the ground up to provide Bitcoin with tokens. As opposed to ERC-20s, these – so when you have an ERC 20 you create a smart contract you call that smart contract and then you can move the tokens around basically the the smart contract itself just changes the

balances for addresses runes have taken a much more bitcoin approach you actually are transacting via the UTXOs themselves. And there's sort of like client-side validation of the different rooms. So Bitcoin doesn't have smart contracts. And so a lot of the data is stored off-chain and that actually ends up making the transactions far more efficient and scalable. And how expensive are sending these things? Sorry, Mario, if you want to go.

I'll ask a question. We'll go back to the markets and get Tom's question. So basically, you can think of it as the cost of a Bitcoin transaction. But I will point out that Bitcoin transactions are likely to become very, very expensive over the course of the coming year. I suspect that Bitcoin block space, because it's only eight megabytes every 10 minutes, is going to become the most scarce computing resource in the world over the course of the coming year because it's going to be used for ordinals, it's going to be used for runes,

it's going to be used for roll-ups to aggregate all of their transactions to Bitcoin. And so everything we thought about Bitcoin, which it up until now even though it was the biggest chain was a relatively cheap chain is uh changing and i think a huge amount of um bitcoin transactions are going to have to migrate to roll-ups for uh uh for scale um and bitcoin itself is going to become much more of a settlement layer for the ecosystem built around it. So people should be. I think you just dropped out, Simon. Not sure if anyone else could hear you.

Let me go to Tom. Tom, we've gone deep in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Not sure if we got any thoughts on that, but maybe want to go back to the markets. What you're seeing in the markets from a similar position to us working at Master Ventures and uh you know you guys having a launch pad as well um and uh more of a broader broader perspective on the markets as well yeah sure um good morning everyone i hope everyone in token 2049 is is doing okay i decided to cancel my trip uh too unfortunately mostly because of the war, but, um, didn't expect a, a biblical flood as well. Mostly,

mostly of the war. I need to buy, I need to buy you a map. So we're a bit far. Dubai's a bit far. You can chill here. Well, I'll send you a map of where the Boston direct flight flies through.

And it's literally over Iran. the flight, the flight will be very inconvenient. That's true. So that's a good reason. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And unfortunately, I'm pretty old. So I have two kids. If I get stuck in Dubai for a week, it's brutal for me. But anyway, so yeah, writing our investor quarterly letter and have a few interesting insights in the market. And I think we just need to take a bit of perspective, right? So we just had the biggest quarter in terms of trading volume on both SEXs and DEXs since 2021. We also had the most daily active users

at over 10 million across layer ones, and most blockchain fees paid across the quarter. So we're seeing a huge increase in usage across the board, which is extremely encouraging. We've had big upgrades like Dancun and upgrades coming on Solana that are really encouraging up and above sort of the meme coin trends we've seen, right? If you looked at sectors this quarter, meme coins actually were the best performing sector,

which is interesting, unfortunate, but I think notable, right? Talking to our friends in the hedge fund space, we operate in the private markets, but talking to a lot of the friends we have in the public markets, if you didn't invest in meme coins this quarter, you actually underperformed drastically, unfortunately. So interesting to see sort of how that proliferates going forward. Are folks going to start taking more speculative bets because they sort of have to keep up with their peers? On the private side, we've seen a huge uptick on the reported data. We had nine-figure rounds from Hashkey, Eigenlayer, Optimism, Monad, Barrett chain. And those are the things that are just reported, right? Most of this data is six to 12 months lag.

So you're gonna see a lot of this stuff continue to come in and talking to our peers in the private space, we have seen, you know, most of these guys are only roughly 50% deployed on the bigger funds. So, you know, you have a lot of capital still coming into these markets, still marking these rounds up,

and still filtering into the private side. So I think there's going to be a lot of continual flows into the space. And that's up and above just what the basic inflows that we've seen from James and others talk about on the liquid side. But the private side is just still very, very active and um a lot of money still flowing in and what's your strategy at master ventures you guys still pretty active as active as always we kind of being a tiny bit more conservative to seeing where the markets head to over the next few months yeah so for us um you know we're very pre-seed seed stage investors we like particular verticals, deep end

infrastructure, a few others. But the rounds are really getting marked up so quickly that it's really challenging to find great deals right now. Luckily for us, we have a very big funnel, so we can filter those. We have a few value adds that we think we can bring to the table to negotiate. But man, you're seeing any stage deals getting any but sorry to interrupt any specific sectors that you'd find uh you're finding pretty interesting now and any you're avoiding like you're still down the same you know ai gaming deep in deep in and rwas or is there other other niches that um you're paying attention to because we've seen a few restakings gaining traction. There's two projects, Omni today and EtherFi. We're invested in both, listed on Binance.

They're both restaking protocols. So we'd love to see any other narratives that are interesting to you guys. Yep. For us, primarily focused in deep end, it's the actual sort of use case on both sides of the equation for both demand and supply side for the token. You know, very bullish there. A lot of different sub verticals. We like compute, storage, etc. And D-Pen, generally bearish on social pie. A lot of these things take a long time to develop network effects um you know gaming we invested in heavily in the last cycle this cycle um i think it's going

to take you know it takes a long time for these protocols to sort of spin up so would be hesitant on making new gaming investments for protocols that have not already been developing for years. RWA is actually, I think, a bit contrarian here. We're fairly bearish on, sort of think it's a next cycle play, right? If you're coming on chain, especially private credit, real estate, a lot of these sort of 7% to 12% yield sort of plays are, I think, are not what people are taking smart contract risk for. So especially a lot of these protocols take a long time for liquidity to develop in their marketplaces. So not bullish on those for this cycle and passing on a lot of those, but certainly think eventually we'll have an ecosystem on-chain where you can invest in everything you can invest in,

in traditional portfolios, equities, bonds, real estate, etc. But probably more of a next cycle thing. So for this cycle, we're really looking deep in infrastructure, etc. to sort of capitalize. But we're very, very cautious on making investments right now. It's just that valuations are very, very high. I want to go back to just looking at the markets here. We've got Jason, we've got HC Burger as well.

HC, I want to go to you first. You know, you put out a nice post. Yeah, I pinned a nice post from 2022. But instead of reading it, I'll give you the market. Tell us where you think the markets are heading, where you think the markets are at now. And, you know, it's just fascinating to see the fear and greed index being so volatile in crypto there were a peak greed just a week or two ago and now we're barely in the greed levels i don't know why i like that indicator go ahead hc yeah well i think we're uh roughly where uh we should be so the price is neither too low nor

too high we're sort of in no man's land at least according to my own estimations, which is the power law corridor. Where we're going from here is also pretty hard to say. I tend to think that the halvings don't have any causal effect on the price, or maybe they do, but we shouldn't think of them that way, because it doesn't really matter. The price does seem to have periodic cycles of strong upward movement but they they're sort of um limited in length so they they last for maybe one or two years something like that so if if that general trend continues again then we could well see the price continue to to increase over the year but uh not until the end of 2025 or something like that like a lot of people tend to expect if um the price starts to increase after the having

uh this time it seems to be different the price increased before the having which is something new and it also speaks in favor of the the having not having a causal effect on price appreciation. Unfortunately, of course, this doesn't guarantee anything. And the price could, of course, just gradually slide down again to maybe something like even the 40s or even 30s could be possible. Oh, wow. What could lead such a such a slide uh for anything i i don't i don't think it necessarily needs to be something dramatic you know it uh it's just everyone is expecting price to go up but how how such etf inflows how could how could the market slide with so much money

still coming into the market just a lot of sellers i guess we still have a lot of sellers i mean most people are hodlers right they have bitcoin which they bought before the etfs existed so uh yeah it could happen i mean 30k is sort of really on the low side but it's uh what i have in at the bottom of of my corridor of possible values so i i can't rule it out i don't think it's the most likely scenario. But it could happen. I mean, in general, people have been expecting prices, which are way too high in this in this space. I mean, stuff like the stock to flow model, and I don't know if people really believe it, but like the stock to FOMO model, which sort of expects an infinite

price within a reasonable time horizon, all of that is way too high. So, yeah, I think it's better if we not expect, but if we take into account the possibility that the opposite is going to happen of what we think should happen right after halving. Cool. Leia, Jason, we'd love your thoughts. I'll go to Rarida Cool. Leah, Jason, I would love your thoughts. I'll go to Rarita afterwards. Yeah, for sure. So I think what's happening right now in the market is pretty interesting. You know, I think that the Bitcoin ETF has definitely propelled the market

much further than where we should be right now. Naturally, obviously, you know, we're seeing this correction. But I think what's interesting is every single cycle, we always see a correction around a 20% correction, sometimes 30% COVID. We saw 50% around the halving time. But here's the interesting thing. The market has, the ETF has pushed us further than we should be. So now we're correcting. But what if we're going to correct again to where we should be? So we, I think we should be at around $60,000, but I think we're going to correct again before or probably straight after the halving. So I wouldn't even be surprised if we saw Bitcoin back down into, you know, the $30,000 levels, that seems a lot more healthy, a lot more sustainable and a lot more, um, makes a lot

more sense of where we should be. And then I also had somebody earlier talk about, you know, what's going on geopolitically, and maybe we won't see this bull run. But in terms of that, I completely disagree. You know, I think history is the best thing that we have to go on when we want to predict the future of the market. And COVID was an incredible example. You know, we saw the world shut down, everything shut down, and yet Bitcoin crashed 50%. But then we still got that incredible bull run. So I think despite what goes on in everything shut down, and yet Bitcoin crashed 50%. But then we still got that incredible bull run. So I think despite what goes on in the Middle East, and you know, how much money they decide to print or whatever it is to fund more wars, I think we're still going to get this bull run, the halving is going to happen, we will correct, like I said, maybe down

to the $30,000 levels. And that's obviously quite bearish, but I think it's definitely a possibility. And then from then onwards, I think we're going to have an incredible bull run, 18 months and that's it. I don't think anything's going to be particularly different this cycle. Yeah, Leah, I was saying that from a bull run perspective, I think all of that is bullish for Bitcoin. Oh, I see. Oh, absolutely. And it always is because, you know, especially money in a place where it's safe. And the fact is, if you just zoom out and look at the chart, Bitcoin is the greatest

store of value. You know, it's always moving up and to the right. And when times were so uncertain, you know, during COVID and even with Russia and Ukraine, when all of that started, Bitcoin just continued to surge. So I totally agree with you. I think it's going to be extremely bullish for Bitcoin. On that point, though, Simon, you saw bitcoin's price reaction when the attack started so i think pretty much instantly yeah sure i think short-term short-term reaction and then

it always happens where people see it as a risk on asset during the crisis and then they realize the fundamentals and the market gets back to what it should be and they realize it's bullish i don't know if the market thinks it's a it's a a hedge against uh i guess black swan events and a store of value then the price should reflect that from the get-go and that should be the emotional response like all right cool store of value bitcoin and we haven't seen that i'm not saying we're not gonna see it but just to kind of point out so seeing is a risk asset by the looks of it. But let's go to, I don't want to go down that path yet, because if we start getting into geopolitics, Scott will be pissed. But Jason, I'd love to get your thoughts on the markets, you and Fred,

because I want to kind of go back and forth with the reader afterwards. Go ahead, Jason. Yeah, sure. Hi, guys. Good afternoon. Good morning. We're coming to the end of the session, so I'm not going to sort of reiterate a lot of the points. I think Simon's macro summary was very good. I think James's ETF summary was very good. There's no points I would disagree with there. As to your point about the reaction to geopolitical events, Bitcoin is still very young. Let's not forget this. So, it doesn't have that real kind of safe haven feel about it. We're

a long way off that. But equally, we are past the stage where Bitcoin is seen as an experimental idea. The fact that the concept of Bitcoin going to zero or going away, that's gone. We're past that stage. It's now a question of where we go from here. And the reality is when I come into these spaces, I love listening to you guys because you guys follow the markets much more closely than I do actually. I've been in the space eight years, been mining large scale for about seven years. And I just sort of, I'm a zoom out kind of guy. I love the maths of Bitcoin. So, amongst all the noise that's going on, to me, the signal is, what does the maths say? And the math is always about that balance between supply and demand, that ever decreasing supply and that

ever increasing demand. Yes, with bumps everywhere, but with those two lines unequivocally diverging in the way that they are. So, the short answer to the question you know will bitcoin go off the halving the answer is yes so we're done now the spaces is finished um but the time scale is obviously the question there's all these other factors that affect it and the weight of them on what we're doing now how much it will affect it but look in the long term zoom out, you know, chill, relax, have a glass of wine, buy, store, hold Bitcoin securely and just enjoy the ride. Fred, before going to Rita, we'd love to get your thoughts on the market. I know we've discussed it a few times over the last few days. It'd be good to get your take so far. Yeah, I would just say, you know, we were talking on Friday and I said, you know, the only thing I know about charts technically is from the guests I watch on Scott's show.

But I went back and I just looked at the halvings and where we go after that. And I said, hey, we got to get down to the low 60s. And then we had everything happen over the weekend. Here we are at the end, which is you see a 20% to 30% dip somewhere around pre-halving and post-halving. It's happened every single time. And then every single time you've got five to eight months later is when you do the massive explosion. So I still think you can bank on five to eight months later. Everybody who's holding is going to be very happy. What's going to happen between now and then is we should just get some chop.

But you got five to eight months to wait. And we all got a little excited with the ETFs and the early high. But we're still in that window. It's always been like that ever since Bitcoin started. And until there's a reason it won't, I'm just following that trend. It's a reason it won't, I'm just following that trend. It's a fascinating, it's a fascinating trend. And Scott said it like,

no matter what, at the end of the day, it hits you a piece of itself and everything else ends up being noise. Obviously the ETF kind of shook that up a bit. And we've had, we're talking about reports from, I can't remember who it was. Well,

there it is. One of them was from JP Morgan, Morgan morgan and morgan stanley as well talking about um the rally the post having rally being a bit more mild considering we've seen some of it already and then we've got bernstein being a bit more bullish having a target of 150k by 2025 but read i want to get your thoughts on the discussion so far again going back to the question ask tom's like any specific narratives that are interesting to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure thing.

Thanks Mario. So, just quickly talking about the Bitcoin price and movements this cycle. In my opinion and based on our analysis, it's been very predictive. Too easy, if I'm honest, which is a little bit concerning in the grand scheme of things because you want to be wrong sometimes. You want to be challenged. If anything, to the upside, so longers have been getting it easy in comparison to the shorters. And prices have been front-run.

So typically what we do for our kind of entry points, we look at three entry points, right, and we look at the base model, and then we normally used to keep it very simple and break it down entry points, right? And we look at the base model and then we normally used to keep it very simple and break it down by thirds, right? But we've noticed every single time, you know, kind of the first and second gets hit and then the last one gets front run typically. So I've heard obviously the 20% retracements,

which is a very valid point looking at historically what's happened in the past. Having said that, with the inflows coming from the ETFs, I don't know whether we're going to get that last pullback to bring it down to that 20%. So normally it does get a little bit front run before we get to that. This is just kind of comparing it over the past few months or so. We've heard, obviously, the numbers of $30,000 have been mentioned, which was at one point a very viable technical level, which I believe after the ETF news kind of broke out,

we did drop to about $39,000 or $38,000. And that kind of gave it that tick, right? So we kind of checked that and moved on from that. So I don't personally, from a personal opinion, I don't see ourselves going back to that level. Having said that, you know, we are kind of going retracement now and we had two key levels, right?

We had the $59, now and we had two key levels right we had the the 59 000 59 000 and we had another one which is 55 to 56 000 so the 59 got kind of checked very briefly uh during the the you know the kind of uh the night conflict between iran and in israel um are we going to go and see the 55 000 56, 56,000 yet to be seen? Right. A couple of things that we're looking at very closely is the potential rate cuts that would happen at some point in the summer or predicted to happen at some point in the summer. So we know it is kind of generally a sell event. Right. But eventually you get that big run afterwards.

Also timed with normally summer, which is quite a time, you know, in the summer and go on holidays, that kind of stuff. So we are kind of watching closely what's going to happen over the course of the next few months. What does it mean to Bitcoin, right? Are we going to get that run post-halving that even when we get kind of a pullback in the summer, it's not going to make much

difference if you enter now or enter later? But also, how does it translate? Because you've asked, and this is a nice segue to go on to alts and narratives. What does it mean to alts, right? Does it mean that alts are going to get hammered in the meantime, right? And they're only going to see

a bit of a break post that kind of run that's going to happen in Q4 so September onwards will remain to be seen. In terms of the big plays that we we're looking into now so real world assets i know one of the the panelists you know they were a bit bearish on them for this cycle yeah so uh we are on on the other side of that so we we kind of doubling down on the real world assets we're doubling down on deep in and um we've always been doubling down on infrastructure so anything assets we're doubling down on deep in and we've always

been doubling down on infrastructure so anything related to that we see it as money and we see it as as on a major growth plan going forward something else which is absolutely gold that's being briefly touched on previously i believe by isabel or somebody else so apologies if i didn't capture the name it was the fees on Bitcoin. You know, we're predicting the fees to grow, right? So some of the people that have been talking a long time, and I think we had this space, Mario, last year, where we talked about miners and investment into miners and what it means and what have you.

And I think people now are slowly starting to understand that there is money to be made there, particularly the predictions of the fees on Bitcoin and what have you. Thank you. And Tom and Rita, why, Tom, can you repeat why you were bearish on, not bearish, but you think that the RWA is our next cycle play? And Rita, I want to put it back and forth there because I want to try to make my decision on how aggressive to be on that market.

Yeah, we've seen, man, dozens of protocols in real estate, dozens of protocols in private credit, and very similar sort of verticals that are, you know, giving you 8 to 15% yields. And I think I am just very hesitant to think people are coming on chain for those sort of yields. You know, in a previous life, I used to do that and allocate to those assets for institutional investors. And one of the biggest things is recovery rates and understanding defaults and all that. And none of that is established on chain right now. And there's no history of that. So I have a very hard time believing folks are coming into the ecosystem to try to allocate to those verticals.

In terms of RWAs, great, very happy to allocate to treasuries, but I think that space is already really over allocated with Ondo and a few others. So up and above treasuries, RWAs are a next cycle play to me as folks continue to build out their entire portfolio on chain. Right now, I still think we're at the bleeding edge of, you know, consumer applications and, you know, other things like Deepin, like Brita said, is our favorite play. Let me, so father of memes, we're going to chat to you in a bit. I appreciate coming as a sponsor of the show. And we talked earlier, Tom kind of mentioned of meme. We're going to chat to you in a bit. I appreciate coming as a sponsor of the show. And we talked earlier.

Tom kind of mentioned that meme. I think it was you going through some numbers and meme coins led this kind of rally. Radar, your thoughts on meme coins is something that we've discussed a lot on the show. And we're probably pretty more confident now to kind of discuss it and debate it rather than before. It's like kind of more taboo for a big part of crypto. Your thoughts on meme coins. And is that just a short-term hype and kind of pump and dump-ish, or you're more panellist than before?

I believe that this is more of a trend and similar to ICOs in 2017, NFTs in the last bull market. The concept of decentralised communities based around memes, around stories, could have a lot more potential than we're currently seeing yeah yeah it's always an interesting uh conversation particularly that you know for me personally i hold my hands up um i'm new to memes in the grand scheme of things

but it's been a very steep kind of learning learning period for me uh getting involved in you know and investing in a lot of projects and trying to understand, obviously, what makes them special and what would make them better than other projects out there. But in the grand scheme of things, I don't see that as a seasonal kind of type hype. I see that as something to remain. There is a lot of volume that's been vacuumed into the meme sphere, right? And for me personally, as somebody that comes from, you know,

kind of corporate institutions, kind of venture capitalism and what have you. When I start kind of getting involved in terms of investing in memes, I just find them incredibly fun. Like they're very captivating. Right. And also they move very, very, very quick. And I could see why a lot of people are completely attracted by that, because it's fast and furious. We're talking about, generally speaking, shorter-term investments, right? So long-term in meme is not the same time as long-term investing in an infrastructure project where you could be investing four, five years, right, really building that ecosystem. So I see a lot of people, a lot of the new entrants into the market being captivated by that, right? Not necessarily going 100% into memes, but at least allocating or continuing to allocate a large portion of their portfolio or portion of their portfolio into memes and therefore from from a narrative standpoint this is something to remain for me personally i've got theory i've

got theory that means not gonna even that even in the die even in in the bear market there will always gonna be a few memes that would still have decent runs. And those memes will continue to pull people in because, you know, it's those big success stories that really attract the attention of people. You know, we're talking about the Pepes. We're talking about the Flokies. We're talking about similar kind of, you know, Project Pork, for example. I don't know if I should be mentioning projects here or not. But generally speaking, you know, those kind of big success stories

in the bear market where everybody's taking, you know, the the pain not a lot of people are making profit and what have you uh really do wonders in terms of marketing and pr thank you yeah we're going to talk to to book of meme uh just in a bit in a couple of minutes um you guys are on base chain and and obviously basis is gonna taking a lot of the limelight now for meme coins but let me get some more thoughts on this tom and leah any other thoughts on the discussion? Yeah, so I think that meme coins are actually one of the best things to happen to crypto. And here's why. The reality is we all know Bitcoin is the best store of value. We know that it's the best type of money. But unfortunately, nobody really cares about decentralization. Nobody really cares about freedom and security.

What they want to do is have fun, make money fast because the world is going to shit and nobody's able to make much money these days. And so they want a place where they can do that. And meme coins are providing that value. They're a lot of fun. People are making a lot of money. And at the same time, it's an amazing way to bring more people into crypto because like I said, people just don't care about Bitcoin. They don't care about security. They don't care about decentralization. And on top of all of that, meme coins are actually saving a lot of these chains. You know, Cardano is basically a ghost chain at this point. Nothing's been built on Cardano. Nobody cares about ADA. But perhaps if they built some meme coins on it, it might actually bring life back

to the chain. You know, the only thing that's really blown up base chain is memes. That's exactly what's happening on base chain right now. It's what's happening on Sol. And it's also an amazing way to test these chains. So let's just look at Solana for a second. We all talk about mass adoption and we all want, we all want, you know, Bitcoin and crypto and the whole space to go mainstream. But how's it going to go mainstream if it can't even handle all the transactions that's happening? Solana was an amazing example. All these memes blew up on Solana and the changes couldn't handle it. So not only is it fun and people can make money and it brings more people into crypto, but it's also a great test for when mass adoption happens. Yeah, we kind of saw that in action. Obviously, we're seeing a base chain

now. We saw that with Linear. There's a project called Foxy. They did a meme coin. It's a meme coin that launched on OKEx, Huobi, Qcoin, Bybit, et cetera, just all the top sectors. And the amount of liquidity they brought to Linear, the amount of attention they brought to Linear, which is a blockchain launched by ConsenSys, which hasn't been getting a lot, I think, the attention it deserves, has just been incredible. And I think memes are, the power meme coins have on bringing attention to a chain is just –

it's still mind-boggling to me despite being deep in the meme coin world as an investor and incubator and on the media side. It's just been fascinating. But let me go to Tom. Tom, it's more long-term. Like a lot of people – Scott kind of made that argument. I think Ryan, we debated it heavily. These meme coins are just an online, decentralized casino, pretty much.

Decentralized casino on steroids. And I just don't like that characterization. I think that's true. It would be an idiot to kind of deny that. But at the same time, I think there's just a lot more potential that's still untapped, similar to NFTs.

It's just a lot more potential than crypto kitties, and obviously that's materializing. There's more potential to decentralized communities based around a meme, a story, a narrative. Yeah, so I think this and lay ahead on it perfectly, I think financial nihilism, so the ability to make life-changing gains in a very short period of time and sort of YOLO into these meme coins and others is actually a financial use case for crypto. So, you know, and, you know, a few folks have

talked about this, but, you know, that's how people are looking at crypto from the younger crowd. And I think that's fine. That could be one of the use cases of crypto and meme coins fit perfectly with that trend. What's your strategy before what's your strategy master ventures or you guys are personal level on the media side with kyle uh with meme coins i don't know like rand for example has gone went all and even launching his own meme coin others like scott a bit more hesitant where do you guys stand yeah so i represent the fun side so we're a traditional long-only venture fund. So meme coins are definitely not our bag. But I think on the other side of the business, in terms of what

Kyle and the rest of the entity is exploring, it's hard to ignore the gains that have been made. So definitely considering allocating there. But it's a a it's a slippery slope right it's uh you know these things can go to zero very quickly so i just want to make sure we manage risk but um yeah go ahead yeah we'd love to just uh zoom out a bit because i know we're getting close to the end of the space and just want to give some perspective on kind of as we approach the having here in the next few days. I'll go back up. Tom, go ahead. We'll keep it short because we are kind of shifting to memes because we've got Father of Meme on stage.

He'll be doing an AMA back and forth with us. Hey, Kyle, how are you? Trying to bring you up to 10 million invites. What's up? I heard you. I was just enjoying listening. But when you asked Tom about the meme side of things, I figured it's probably best that he doesn't respond to that.

I tried to lure you in and it worked. Tom's supposed to be the, you know, not supposed to be. He is the buttoned up institutional kind of, you know, even though maybe he loves them at heart, he's, you know. Anyway, that's me, independent Kyle. You know, the DGEN side of me, the side that handles my own money, not that of other lps and investors um but

uh i yeah so for me i think that uh like it's quite fascinating um you know i actually so i talked to the some of the guys that are behind pump pump pump dot fund did you know that they're generating about like five hundred thousand dollars a day in revenue um which is crazy nuts uh and nuts um i think what's what most people have said you know it kind of kind of covers the gamut pretty well um but i i do unlike a lot of people and just quickly sorry i forgot pumped up fun just for the audience it's like a it's like the shopify meme code just allows you to easily launch a meme coin it does it in a way to avoid uh you know kind of you reach a certain amount of uh uh uh you know you reach a certain level with the raise you kind of put those targets and as soon as you hit that liquidity number then the token immediately lists and yeah you know the problem with it right now is that like

snipers will go in there and they'll they'll take like a bunch of the yeah so it's not perfect but um but anyway they like they've got investments from some of the biggest... I couldn't believe it. Teams from Oxford or something like that, and they've got investments from a lot of the really big tier one funds, which is crazy because when you go to the site, it feels like this hairy...

Equity or token? We'll talk about it later. I don't even know if I'm allowed to disclose most of this stuff. But yeah, so my theory is, and what I'm looking for is, I actually think that we're going to have to evolve. Like I said before, this meme coin thing feels exactly like the 2021 NFT run, right? It's like people pretending that there's like, the communities really matter when the thing was just invented yesterday. And I think initially, you have like a lot of these influencers that are shilling these things and saying, yeah, community is great. I like the art. But they know they're just like dumping on each other. It's PVP environment.

But eventually, when the influencers realize that like, they have to be more transparent about what's going on, then they start saying, yeah, well, this is all just a game about who's exo-liquidity. But my opinion is memes have been part of internet culture for a very long time. And they do attract attention. And they're valuable to us. Like anyone that's under, I mean, probably 40 and under is going to appreciate memes. I think that it can be a very powerful thing to identify a brand around something. And I think that memes, I think that will evolve to ones that have utility.

And I think I know that right now a lot of people will say, oh, once if the devs are still involved or if the second they try to stop being anything but a meme, like it's not interesting anymore. I would tend to disagree when we look ahead of time. A couple of good examples are PepeCoin, which is like the best number one thing ever, which to anyone who doesn't know is the actual original PepeCoin. And the one that launched on ETH and that's now at $3 billion was just literally a direct copy knockoff of that. But if you look at the original PepeCoin developers, they built the world's first layer one for memes and other things. They actually built the world's first NFT marketplace all in 2016. And now they're building the craziest AI project that you've ever seen. And they have a game theory and burn mechanism built in for PepeCoin that I promise you, anyone on this call, that this thing will absolutely explode. One more thing, Mario.

But the other one that I identified very, very quickly, I think pretty sure I was the first person to talk about it, was this Tucker Carlson, right? And I know that I just like, I know how big Tucker Carlson is. I love the fact that he got fired from Fox for speaking

and he started his own X account. And when I saw the first animated film, like a million dollar market cap, I was like, fuck yeah, I'm in on this one because it's great, right? It's really good. So I like this personally. I think this is the evolution of how...

I agree. It starts growing up in our community. There's another token I saw, like RFK token. I think they've been on our show and it says on RFK's website, the token is listed as a meme coin which is you know it just becomes part of the narrative part of the community um a father of me i appreciate you guys being there being patient with us um you know since we're talking about meme coins i think it's perfect time to segue to what you guys are doing and and um you know you guys launching on base chain which

is gaining a lot of the traction right now first question i have for you is um what is book of father of meme well thank you firstly let me start by saying amazing conversation it's been a great space uh just hearing some of the back and forth and how you guys debate you know getting a read on the market is great for new investors and all the besters alike so really great to be here uh But yes, we are father of meme and we are on base chain. We are looking to be the biggest, if not top 10 meme coin on layer two. We've been working on this for a while and we're very confident that the narrative that we've been building with the father of meme, who if you guys aren't familiar, just to give you a little bit of a recap before we go into it, it's Richard Dawkins. Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist that I'm sure we all either hate, know, and love, who was also a celebrity debater of atheism and dogmatic beliefs. collective consciousness for decades now and it really latched on with social media and now it's

become this huge vehicle of wealth we know as meme coins so what better narrative to encapsulate the history that we've all really been a part of over the last 10 years than to start what was that's fascinating by the way i didn't know it's richard that kind of coined the term what context did he i'm a big fan of Richard Dawkins, but what context did he coin the term meme? In what context did he do so? Great question. Great question. So in the 70s, he was writing a paper on genetics

and he used the word meme to define when something is imitated to connect or communicate with others. So it's great that that highlighted what happened when we started this meme culture in social media. There's a bunch of kids who grew up on the internet creating these images and it started off as just humor. We all saw the humor. Many of us maybe never even knew what was going on with the kids who were using memes. And then next thing you know, it's become, I don't think anyone is in marketing right now in college or professionally and not learning how to utilize memes and marketing it's

become a larger than life thing and i don't think uh the irony is missed on any of us that the guy who doesn't believe in a creator has inadvertently created one of the massive uh pieces of our generation which is memes and you guys launched can you tell me exactly in a couple hours we launched oh sick and eastern we're on the precipice of the launch here so that's why we're so excited to be here with you guys um so so can you tell me more about first you're launching on base we're big fans of base big fans of brett for example the biggest meme coin on base yes on the base ecosystem so and and as i think it's lay or someone mentioned like me because i bring so much liquidity into base and as as i've done solana and they're going to do to other chains.

Why base? And where do you see the future of base in meme coins? And I'm glad that you mentioned Brett, shout out to Brett. They announced their partnership with us among many others that we're looking forward to roll out as we come to launch. But why base? Everyone wants to know why base. Well, meme coins are made on a lot of networks and I think the points that you

guys made before me coming on are great. Meme coins are some of the biggest drivers of wealth in the last cycle. If you missed out on meme coins, you missed out on your competitors and trying to keep up with their games. And what Leah said about meme coins testing the network, I think that's a great point because it makes kind of like an inadvertent utility. I think meme coins test pop culture and they test the strength of networks across the space. The meme coins really are drivers of what the people who are using these technologies, who use the internet, who use social media, what is their finger on?

What are they worried about? What do they care about? There was a point in time where Elon Musk could tweet and that tweet's going to be turned into a coin within minutes and go to hundreds of millions of dollars in market cap. So I really believe if Bitcoin, Litecoin, you name these things, are the organs of the body of crypto, meme coins is slowly becoming the powerhouse of the cell. It's the mitochondria that's driving these chains and bringing new investors to see where can I make money the fastest? And that's what these chains and bringing new investors to see where can I make money the fastest? And that's what these meme coins really can do. And that's why we want to take base chain because base, Coinbase is probably the biggest adopter, right? If you want to get on

crypto tomorrow, probably someone's going to say, well, download Coinbase. So why not use their layer two, which is probably going to be on the forefront of anyone who when memes turn household like we've been saying with pepe when memes become more of a known to everyone they're going to know where to start and that's probably the coin base layer two solution because in my opinion i think the other people agree is the best solution when it comes to layer two and you you guys are just going through twitter got a lot of traction so before asking on your strategy on becoming as you said you want to become a top 10 meme coin, like your strategy to get there, because there's no playbook to get there.

I think there's a few things, building a community, KOL, play a key role in meme coins. I think just the basics, locking liquidity, et cetera, which go without saying. And especially building that credibility uh doxing founders i don't know how important that is but i just feel like just uh an interesting story in narrative the timing of the narrative and just you know knowing how to create traction um kls being one of the main ways of doing that and i'm curious to get an idea of how you guys created so much traction based on your twitter engagement yeah great question so we believe that some of the things you point out, that's exactly what it takes to make any good project in the space. You need a great community. You need to have

connections. You could have a billion dollars. If you don't know how to network or know what you're doing in the space, you're not going to be able to do anything successful. So you need the community, you need to network the connections, and you need the narrative. You need to have a good narrative. So we've been confident to build over the last couple of years, a lot of different projects on our own. Some of us in the team have worked together. If we haven't worked on our own projects separately, some of them are very active, even though we're not here to talk about those.

We're talking about FOMO. And we believe that when we put all these connections together, we could create something big. So we started building and we came up with the father meme and we did the raise, which is probably our first sign when testing the waters at how much potential we really had. And if you didn't know, we raised $15 million in one hour. I'm glad that it was only an hour. Who knows what the potential could be? I think a year or two from now, we're going to see meme coins easily raise $100 million. And this will all be just an afterthought. But for today, we are the biggest thing in the space.

We've already made history, and we're going to continue to do so with this narrative. And now what makes this so exciting, even though we had this plan and everything, these goals, now that we've already started to make waves, if there wasn't a person we had had a connection with or someone we couldn't touch before we absolutely can touch them now so there's no place we haven't reached and no stone we can't turn so we're really excited you've done enough you know the team loves you enough you're on our stage so congratulations on that as well and i'm sure you'll you'll be uh you'll be doing well beyond that but you know the next question is you know how do you and this is more curiosity first obviously talking about yourself and appreciate you partnering with us, but more personal curiosity, like how would a meme coin become a top 10 meme coin?

Like what would be your plan when you sit behind the scenes with your team and come up with a plan? Absolutely. So you got to hit that plan from a lot of different avenues. Obviously, you want to make sure that you have crypto Twitter on board. And I believe with what we've done so far, we've got the proverbial blessing from crypto Twitter. And with some of the marketing that we've done. How do you get that?

I'm curious. So, I mean, you get it by putting your experience, your money where your mouth is. So people have followed us. We already started to network behind the scenes and we started to move and spread the word of our Twitter. And it grew faster than we could expect our Twitter and it grew faster than we could expect it. The raise grew faster than we can expect it. So we knew that the catalyst that we were using, the KOLs that we already networked with and the market makers and everyone else that we had in the wings and the advisors and amazing people like you guys getting behind us led us to

this point where it's like, okay, we have the narrative. We have the spaces here. Now we need to make sure that we use these vehicles correctly because obviously we've done projects. We know how to get the right calls, get the right exchanges, but how do you put that all together and make value? Because I think what the last speaker said is a good point. It can become very PVP. You got a couple of projects that last year's Pepe is 3 billion now, and we hope that more and more projects come because that's how memes will continue to become household names, with more shivs, with more Pepes, and with more FOMOs. But we also know that a large group of people investing are chasing these pumps, these dumps. It's this PVP play of where will the liquidity go next? The only way this space really grows and stops

contracting is by bringing on new investors. And we have to figure out ways to onset new investors. And we think that layer two with base is going to be on the forefront with that. Because when they do things like the smart wallet that I don't know if you heard about they're implementing and going through test net, that smart wallet is going to be huge. Because right now, I would think that many would agree, one of the most intimidating things for someone who's never done crypto are these seed phrases. If I told you, okay, listen, you got to put your hard-earned money and your savings into something where if you forget this random 12-word phrase, you lose your money forever. That could turn somebody off from wanting to hear

anything else. But when you have base chain working on things where there's look, you know, your Facebook, the same way you recover your Facebook password, you can recover your crypto. That will make people be more open to the idea. And that's why we're excited to be on base chain and hopefully the number one coin on base chain in a couple hours. You wanted to introduce to other guests on stage that you brought up? Oh, absolutely. Henok, I see you. Thank you so much, buddy.

How you been? It's great to see you. And Leia, thank you. Yeah, it's such a privilege to be here. You know, it's really funny. And I love what's happening with the father of memes. I'm really bullish, really excited about this insanely hype launch today. But it's so interesting and fun to listen to all of you guys talk because you guys

would be considered, you know, mainstream crypto media in the eyes of the crypto verse. And to see you guys acknowledge and value and validate meme coins is such a beautiful thing for those of us that have been building here for years. And I'm 100% convinced that meme coins are going to stay. Meme coins are here to stay. This industry will continue to grow. And it is what it is, right? And so I think at this point, everyone listening should develop a thesis around how are you going to navigate memes in general? This is going to be here for years, maybe even a decade or two to come. Who knows? We don't know exactly how long this will last the way it is. But it's here. It's here to stay. You know, what was once ridiculed, you know, stomped on,

disregarded, devalued, it's now the thing that we're all into. So I'm excited about FOMO. In what form? Hang on, hang on. In what form? FOMO, by the way, is the father of meme for anyone listening. But how would meme coins look? How would FOMO look in a year from now? I don't know. Bitcoin began as a meme. At the end of the day, it was a brand, it was a logo, it was a narrative, and it was a community, right? And it's evolved into so much more than just that. So, I don't know. This is the legacy of our entire industry, online communities rallying around these brands.

So, I don't know exactly what it'll look like, but I think that'll always be, you know, the two basic components, right? A brand, a logo, a narrative, as well as a community. It's a great point. I love that, Hannah. And I think when people who are new to the space, or people who are old in the space, one of the things with FOMO, with Father of Meme, it's chronicalizing this journey. We've done amazing animations. I hope some of you guys, my favorite one's the one with the lightsaber fighting BoJack, but we've been working with some major animation studios on more long form motion animations to kind of bring that narrative

to life for new investors and let them know like who are the biggest names in the space who have made the splashes and the meme coins and and helped us to like i said when they counted us down bring us out of the dirt and showed us no we're here to stay and that's what the father's here to bring us all all together with so yeah i'm real excited thank you henok for being here leah were you going to say something next and mario of course can i just say something yeah hey, were you going to say something next? And Mario, of course. Can I just say something, guys? Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I love what you guys are doing,

Father of Meme. I've been following you since, like, since I think you had, like, hardly any followers on Twitter, actually. So I've been watching you guys grow. And I think that your whole narrative is actually extremely creative. And, you know, people often think that memes are just a joke and, you know, just put a that memes are just a joke and, you know, just put a picture of like a dog or something with a hat or whatever. But I really like what you do, because what you're doing is kind of like a tribute to the entire meme narrative,

which, as I said earlier, I think is actually what's holding up crypto right now and actually allowing a lot of the chains to survive. You know, you have a whole dedication to the father of memes, you know, the person that came up with this entire narrative. So I think it's really creative. It has a really nice story. You have an amazing community. I've saw there are some really cool people on board. I saw, I think Mike Novogratz follows you guys. So I need to look into that. That's right. That's right. We're definitely getting signed. Yeah, no, I'm just, I'm right. So no so no i'm just i'm just excited for the launch and um yeah keep killing it it's really nice to see and obviously your partnership with brett is really cool so yeah i just feel like you guys are kind of at the

forefront of this whole new narrative which is driving crypto right now um and yeah i'm really excited to watch how it goes so best of luck with the launch hashan yo? Yo, what's up, guys? Can you all hear me? Yeah, man. As you guys know, I'm one of the most popular people in the crypto community, one of the most knowledgeable people as well.

So yeah, I've been listening for the past 20 minutes and I find it a very interesting conversation. But what I want to say to all those people out there who think meme coins aren't here to stay is 10, 20 years ago, we hardly used social media. Think about how much life has changed. Think about how we now meet people online. We start dating people online now.

Everything has now become online. Memes have changed the way we market everything, right? Kids nowadays, they don't send each other anything but memes. Everyone sends each other memes. And you've got to ask yourself, who are the ones buying all these crypto coins it's not well traditionally it's not 75 year old women it's not 75 year old men it's traditionally young people and it's people who would send memes to each other so i think mean coins are far far far more attractive than the regular cryptos such as bitcoin or ethereum And another reason for this is because young people traditionally don't like small return on investment. If you say to someone, buy Bitcoin now at $60,000 and then it goes up to $66,000 or $68,000, it's too small of a return

to interest the masses. And if you want to make crypto very, very mainstream, you need the appeal of fun. You need it to be fun. You need it to be emotional. You need it to be exciting, right? Because only young people are going to find the, only the boring nerds, the older people are going to find the small returns worthwhile. The young people want to see big returns. I know so many people through my various networks who are saying wow how's that we can make a 10x on this we can make a 5x on that that's what people are interested in no one's interested in small returns so bitcoin although it's great i have lots of bitcoin i have lots of ethereum it's too small to get people excited because what you guys need to realize

you 6 000 people in this space right now is that people don't buy on logic they buy an emotion right so you want to make things emotional for people. And the reason why I love meme coins so much as well, and I've been talking to various friends of mine and been getting involved in a lot of meme coins myself, is that people are buying all this shit on emotion. So if we can buy without emotion on these emotional projects and then get out at the right time and then know when to sell and all these kinds of things, we can make lots and lots of money. So that's what it's about. All of you guys in this space right now, if you manage to buy at the right time and then sell at the right time, you'll make a lot of money. Whereas with Bitcoin, even if you time it well right now, it's hard to make too much money because Bitcoin is not

going to double any time really that soon. Whereas the mean coin, it can double in two seconds. It can double overnight. It can 10x overnight. So for me, mean coins are the fucking future. And what I want to say also is look at dodge coin right dodge coin started off as this joke and now it's become huge you see someone like elon musk the most famous person in the world talking about dodge coin so it's only a matter of time before a lot of other memes become big i've seen father of meme i actually follow them on twitter as well and i like their project there's a lot of other people whose projects i like but i like their projects a lot just the name is what just the name alone the reason why i like it is because if we're going to

be talking about meme coins then the father of memes the father of you know it's a very cool name it sounds like it's the number one meme coin it sounds like it's the best right the father the head of the household numero uno i like that but yeah look at dodge coin sorry yeah i won't go to father because i know you just dropped out father you're back up i know you you you brought up you're working now man yes i was wondering whether hassan hassan is um we're still fomoing for fomo all right i'm good yeah man i think hassan was just talking about meme course in general kind of talked about i wasn't sure how he's affiliated to you guys because i know you brought him up with hannock um but kind of to to uh wrap up father of meme um you know you've got the launch in what a couple of hours you say got the launch in a couple of hours at 3 p.m eastern we got to get back to work

really soon i'm lucky i had even time to get on this space there's so many moving gears right now i'm glad that some of the people who are on board were able to take time to get back to work really soon. I'm lucky I had even time to get on this space. There's so many moving gears right now. I'm glad that some of the people who are on board were able to take time to get on the space with me. Hena, Hasan, Leah, you guys, Mario inviting us here. We have so many more people behind the scenes. I almost slipped up. I can't say, but just keep watching our animations. Stay tuned for the launch.

We're really trying to break through and achieve that escape velocity. We're really trying to break through and achieve that escape velocity. We love crypto Twitter, but we want to bring the rest of the world on speed and see why meme coins matter. So strap in and join us for that ride, guys. Yeah, man. I think you've done well based on the engagement you guys have, the traction, the people that follow you. I think Leia just mentioned Mike Novogratz, among many others, that you guys are either backing you, invested in you, or just, I don't know, following you for one reason or another. So congrats on the success so far.

Obviously, the launch is the next step, and you've got that in a couple of hours. It's a pleasure for us to be part of. I think we're invested as well. So to be part of that launch. And it should be exciting. I enjoy these meme coin discussions, especially when Scott is not here, because he'll just start complaining when he's here. I think you guys are leading this bull market.

The meme coin ecosystem is, in my opinion, here to stay, not for the same reasons that Rand and others usually give. It's like, hey, people want to make quick money, et cetera. I think it's important. But I think meme coins just have a lot more potential than what we're discussing now. And the meme coins that capitalize on that will be the ones to win long term. But I think it was a great space, guys. Really appreciate it.

Father Rameem, pleasure to have you. For everyone else, thanks a lot for joining. Appreciate you. We'll see you again on the next one. Bye, everyone. Thanks a lot. Take care, boys.