The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin Is Replacing Gold, Featuring Mike McGlone of Bloomberg Intelligence

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

The last time Mike McGlone appeared on The Wolf Of All Streets Podcast, Bitcoin was sub $10k. But even at these low prices, Mike’s sentiment was infectiously optimistic. With current prices sitting almost 6x that level, Mike continues to envision a future where Bitcoin is a global reserve asset, ultimately surpassing $100,000. Although this will likely require an ETF approval, the roadmap is already drawn out and investors are slowly beginning to realize the incredible value opportunity this presents. Follow Mike McGlone: ​@mikemcglone11 This episode explores: Learning from the trading pits Tesla selling Bitcoin Counter trading your sentiment Running a Bitcoin node Learning to take profit Volatility as opportunity The ubiquity of Doge Leaving gold for Bitcoin Feeding the market Gods Deflationary technology --- Voyager This episode is brought to you by Voyager, your new favorite crypto broker. Trade crypto fast and commission-free the easy way. Earn up to 9.5% interest on top coins with no lockups and no limits. Go to https://thewolfofallstreets.link/voyager and download the Voyager app and use code “SCOTT25” to get $25 in free Bitcoin when you create your account. --- Mina Mina is the world's lightest blockchain, powered by participants. Rather than apply brute computing force, Mina uses advanced cryptography and recursive zk-SNARKs to ensure a super-light and constant sized chain, that allows participants to quickly sync and verify the network. The team behind Mina is backed by VCs, including Coinbase Ventures, and Mina's adversarial testnet was the largest public testnet outside of ETH 2.0. To get involved ahead of Mina’s mainnet, visit https://thewolfofallstreets.link/mina --- Matcha Matcha is the easiest way to trade in DeFi. Matcha enables traders to seamlessly swap tokens using 20+ aggregated liquidity sources that deliver better prices than going to a centralized exchange or Uniswap. Connect your wallet and start today at https://thewolfofallstreets.link/matcha --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co ーーー Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members

Today's episode is brought to you by Voyager, Mina, and Matcha. Stick around to hear more about them. What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. The last time I had today's guest on the show, Bitcoin was hovering around $10,000, which seems crazy. In that episode, Mike provided a solid list of reasons why Bitcoin would likely rise dramatically. Well, now we're above 50,000, but seemingly everyone has found a reason to be bearish anyways. I doubt Mike is.

Mike McGlone is a senior commodities strategist with decades of experience. Now working for Bloomberg Gathering Intelligence, Mike began his career hustling his way down Wall Street to eventually becoming an expert trader and visionary. Today, I get to pick his brains on the current state of the legacy markets and what role Bitcoin will play in disrupting that.

Mike McGlone, thank you so much for coming on once again. Hey, Scott. Thanks for having me. I enjoy your podcast, particularly your latest with John Najarian. I started in the business in the trading pits right where he did, and he just brought back memories like, man, it was like I was down there five years and I learned. And I like to say I've got a lot of these degrees and things. And there's nothing like what I learned down there in five years. It's just you learn so fast and you eat what you kill down there. Absolutely. Well, we talked about you, obviously, in that podcast, since you

listened, it was the first thing that I thought of. But before we dive into it, once again, everybody, you're listening to the Wolf of Wall Street podcast, which airs twice a week. And I talked to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading, art, music, sports, and politics. This podcast is powered by BlockWorks. You can visit them at blockworks.co for access to the highest quality information in the space. And you can find everything that you need about me, which is probably very little, at thewolfof of all streets.io. Now to get into today's episode, the big story this week has been Tesla selling 10% of its Bitcoin holdings. How dare they? Everybody was feeling bearish, but ironically, Elon Musk was the one to come out and say, hey, Bitcoin proved to accomplish

exactly what it was intended to do. We were able to get some liquidity out of this thing, right? So what are your thoughts on the Tesla news? Yeah, I love that news about them taking $100,000 in profits on a position that started at $1.5 billion. It's probably closer to $3 billion now. And it's a simple lesson that we learn in the trading pits is you don't mess with the market gods. And a lot of times you have to feed the gods. And that's called taking a little bit of profits.

If the market gods think you're selling, it's going to go up. They think you're buying, it's going to go down. It's just the lesson of being a trader and used to having hair. So I looked at that right away, like, oh, that's just prudent money management, skim a few profits, adjust their cash flows a little bit and prove to the world what's going on here. And it made me really think, kind of profoundly, sometimes you got to hit these little inflection points. It made me really think what Tesla is. Tesla is to auto manufacturers. They are now the largest automaker on the planet in terms of market cap. But Tesla is to the auto manufacturers, but Bitcoin is to gold. Tesla's moving ahead, moving forward, like automobiles did to horses

and like paper money did, you know, into gold. And then we're switching back a little bit to that. But to me, that's what Bitcoin is doing to gold. And Bitcoin is doing in a world that's going digital. It's going digital rapidly. And Bitcoin is that digital reserve asset. And I don't see what's going to stop it. And that's what I want to kind of bring out of you at some point in this interview.

What do we need to worry about in this trend? Because I see, to me, the next key threshold for Bitcoin was getting to 50,000. But the next key threshold this year is really getting to 100,000. Yeah. Psychologically, I think six figures, obviously, will be a huge barrier. But as you sort of touched on, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that we get there. So it's somewhat makes me laugh. That's the problem. That's what I'm afraid of. That is a problem. For me too. It's like, that's what I'm afraid of. Okay,

I have little doubt. That's why I'm like of. That is a problem. For me too. It's like, that's what I'm afraid of. Okay. If I have little doubt, that's why I'm like, you know, as they say, I think the way it was that with Mark Twain, who said, you should fear what you don't, what you're not, what you are certain about. No, I mean, I think that's absolutely true, right? It's the greatest sentiment trade is probably counter trading your own sentiment, right? If you're, if you're sure of something, it's time to sell it. If you're in terrible fear, it's probably time to buy. Well, everybody was terribly fearful recently

when it drew back from 65 to 47. And so I think that was a good time to buy. But yeah, I'm pretty convinced that we're going to 100. I agree with you. So what are the things that could stand in the way of that happening? I think the key thing is if we have a definitive rejection I agree with you. So what are the things that could stand in the way of that happening? I think the key thing is if we have a definitive rejection of US ETFs, because to me,

right now, I view the probability of ETFs being launched in this country as very high and only increasing every day that goes by. Bitcoin is legitimate. And one of the key reasons that first of all, say our ETF team at Bloomberg says they think it might happen in June. Might, potentially, because there's like a 45-day period. I don't know all the nuances. But it's happening in, I mean, this whole sense that, OK, we get it, you missed Madoff, but now let's not miss this big one, too. It's happening in Canada.

It's happening in the rest of the world. And then there's this sense, I think one of their pushbacks initially was it didn't trade on any legitimate exchanges. Well, Coinbase is now public. Okay, we're past that. The world's largest auto manufacturer is allocated to it. Every corporate treasury on the planet and pension funds and endowments and sovereign wealth funds are all trickling in.

This space is legitimate now. And an ETF would get it over that final hump. And so I think it's just a matter of time. But there's always a risk that they might fail. And to me, until we get past the US launch of an ETF, which I think is a matter of time, and widely disseminated, I can't get bearish. And Bitcoin means it has to probably get to a higher plateau, get overbought, and then expect a decent correction. Otherwise, what we saw recently, that's just noise in a bull market. It's interesting, though. It's sort of a chicken and an egg scenario with the ETF. You talk about sovereign wealth and pensions and endowments

wanting to come in, but endowments and pensions need an ETF to be able to gain exposure to the asset. So it's a catch-22 there, right? Well, the futures, our volume is legitimate enough now to do an ETF. I mean, they're more volume than on the wheat futures, and we have wheat ETFs. We have the Coinbase, the legitimate exchange in the U.S. So to me, it's just a matter of time, plus a change of leadership, the SEC, and they're very simple. There's got to be major pressure on the regulators who do come from private sector and go back to the private sector from the private sector in the US are saying, oh, by the way, guys, Canada's wonderful.

They led in ETS, but we're falling behind now. And the US needs to lead the world in advancing technology. This is becoming a pretty significant Cold War. And the US can blow the world away as long as we lead the world in advancing technology. And here's one good thing I'll leave you on is we don't have to go there too much, but people keep talking about central bank digital currencies

and things like that. I'm like, and China, are you kidding? The most widely traded crypto on the planet is Tether. It's double the volume of Bitcoin. And guess what? That's just the digital version of the dollar. Right. Absolutely true. And there has to be so much pressure, as you said, seeing how successful these ETFs, not only that they exist in other countries, but the Canadian ETF launch, the volume was absurd. I mean, it smashed everything else that was being traded. So, I mean, it's absolutely proven that there's a demand for this and that people want it. Yeah, so that to me is part of my dangling carrot of bullishness. And that's just like life. You always want something to keep you to look forward to. It's something to look forward to. And, you know, it's part of what's keeping me bullish.

And that's what to me is we're going to get past this inflection point. I'm glad we had a decent correction, almost 30% in 2017. We had, I don't know, five, at least 20%. So this is the second one this year, at least 25%. And it's going to good levels. It's markets turning like a good bull market should. So this is the second one this year, at least 25%. And it's going to good levels. It's markets turning like a good bull market should. Get way too leveraged long on the upside.

I thought it would go to 70 and stopped at 64. Nice little correction. And sometimes that's what we used to learn, a lesson I learned in the trading pitches. Sometimes markets, certainly bull markets, need to probe. Need to probe support levels. Need to probe down and actually break support levels. Hit the stops and see who's below. See if there's bids below. And that's what we just did. We hit a few stops. The leverage guys got, you know, the weak hands got flushed out and the strong hands are back in control. And I expect that to fully happen. I suspect we're going to see more of a

mature advancing bull market. Who knows what surprises are going to come, but until that ETF is launched, and I think that's what gets us to a hundred thousand and what else it might be, I don't know, but we're also talking about Tesla and a lot of dollar based and corporate treasuries and things allocated into Bitcoin. How about the rest of the world? It doesn't have this reserve asset. And, you know, to me, that's just a matter of time. And it's one of those, I'll end on this. To me, it's one of the, I think the most important thing about markets that I felt I've had a good sense for is human nature. And this to me is one of the most unique examples of human nature I've ever seen in markets is, say you've been a money manager, professional, or even someone who's been

holding gold for centuries, and you have 100 units of any asset, if you do not allocate at least one or two units of your portfolio to this thing called Bitcoin that's rapidly become a digital version of gold, you risk looking back from the future and being told, oh, you were an idiot as the world changed. You missed Netflix as Blockbuster was being put out of business. You missed Walmart as Sears was being put in out of business. You missed Kodak being put out of business. This is a new world, rapidly advancing technology, and Bitcoin is part of that. I don't know what's going to make it fail, but I can really see it replacing gold. That's really interesting because I think the narrative for the last few years is certainly if you're at a bank or you're in charge of a

corporate treasury was that the reputational risk of exposure to Bitcoin was too much. I'm not touching that. I don't want to be the cowboy. Now it seems like we're 180 degrees. You have reputational risk for not being exposed. You're the idiot who didn't see it. And everybody's running away, as you said, and you're still sitting here contemplating it, right?

How did we get that flip? That narrative has slipped. I remember, I love that one of my favorite programs was very recently about the battle between Edison and Tesla. And I'm reading about it, but I just saw the movie recently. And it was about Edison said, well, in the future, it's going to look back and they're not going to remember a time without electricity. I think that's going to happen. We're going to look back when our kids have kids and not remember a time when you use cash.

And, you know, we're going to have digital currencies everywhere. It's just inevitable. It's just like cable TV taking over. It's just a matter of time. And it's a better way of doing things. And now let's look at tokenization of stocks and things. And, you know, this fact that I got a really good lesson from it recently is I'm a markets guy, but I have a son who's really into coding and he's 20. I said, can you please start a node? So he started this Bitcoin node.

We've learned a lot together. Now I realized how the strength of the network is part of what people complain about with electricity is this use of electricity is completely decentralized. We have solar panels, so our cost is nothing. We don't mine, but it's running a node, uses electricity. But that is part of the strength of it. It's completely decentralized, no central point of attack, and it just can't go down. And every time people add to it, part of the strength of it. It's completely decentralized, no central point of attack, and it just can't go down. And every time people add to it, it increases the strength of this decentralized network. That's open source software. It's like Stephen Driesen, I think, said software is going to take over the world.

And guess what's happening? Absolutely. So I agree with you that there's going to be a time when very soon that we'll never think about cash. Everything will be digital, much the way we don never think about cash. Everything will be digital. Much the way we don't think about how our cell phone works or how the internet works, we just transact digitally. It's just going to be the way it's done. There's a lot of people who think that that's in some way bearish for crypto because central bank digital currencies will come in.

People will just use those. I take the opposite. I think that those are basically going to be gateway drugs to Bitcoin, right? People are going to learn how to transact digitally. They're going to learn how to use a digital wallet. And then they go, crap, the government can just take my taxes right out of my wallet. Maybe I want something different. Well, I'm glad we went there because to me, that's the key thing. First of all, with analyzed human nature, anything that's this new and disruptive has to have naysayers. It has to have the old guard who reject it. If it doesn't, it's not that disruptive. It's just like anything

else in history. I remember reading about railroads and they said the train going faster than the speed of horse would mess up people's metabolism or something. And the key thing about digitalization is digital currency is still going to be the liability and project of that government. Look at the central CBDC in China. It's still that government's got to manage that currency and the cash flow and monetary supply and everything. It's just going to reflect the value of that currency. But there'll only be one ever digital reserve asset. And right now it's Bitcoin. Now it could, maybe Ethereum is

going to be the digital reserve asset for the crypto space. But from a global macro standpoint, which is my background, all macro economics, there'll never be another Bitcoin. So no one's project, no one's liability. And it's already won the adoption race. So to me, it's that classic thing of life is, okay, it's already won adoption race. And now it's about people accumulating and getting into space and still such a small percentage. So something's got to go wrong. I can't predict. Otherwise, I think we're heading to that phase of price discovery where that price level from basically 30,000 where we ended last year until we just dipped to around 50, maybe 47. There's a gap

there. I have a feeling we're never going to see those levels again as we go up to 100 and maybe plateau again. Yeah, I agree. I don't see us dipping that far. So that said, we've always had the narrative Bitcoin could go to zero. Do you think that in the last year, especially considering the March 12th drop and the recovery since. Do you think that that narrative can officially be put to bed? Yeah. Well, here's a good example. Dogecoin. How about XRP? That's one thing as an analyst, it doesn't matter if you love it or hate it or hate any of these other bogus coins. I'll watch my language. It's the fact that they don't go down.

So I use this, we'll start with XRP and then I'll get to my story is the fact that XRP was subpoenaed. Now I say the SEC has come down and claim that they're, I just accused them of being a security and there's issues there. And then it went from like 60 cents down to 20 cents. And now it's right now on the screens at $1.37. There's something more organic going on there that I can't explain. All I know is markets is trained. A lesson I learned in trading pits, market's always right. When you hit this, the market's always right. Now, sometimes in the short term, yes, it can be wrong, but it can remain irrational. But this market is very impressive. And I'll end on where I really learned that lesson was with

Tether. Hong Kong, 2018, I was there right after the typhoon and basically a year before the protests. And I remember it was a Bitcoin bear market and people there love cryptos and they didn't like the fact that I was very bearish, but they were very open to me. And I remember pointing out one key fact that everything in the planet was going down. Every crypto was declining and market cap and price except one thing, Tether volume and market cap was increasing. I'm like, I don't know what it is. I don't really know why, but here's a fact. Things are going digital. This is a digital version of the dollar, and people want to guess what?

Tether's still doing that. It trades double the volume of the dollar. So I look at it as organic demand for digitalization of money. The global reserve currency is the dollar. It's the most widely traded digital asset on the planet, and everything else is trickling up. And also, I'll leave you on this, a key level lately, key thing I've been watching is Ethereum. Now, I don't understand it so much as I get, you know,

how it's the platform for the whole space and Tether is basically an Ethereum token. But the fact it's broken above 2000 and just won't come back, something's going on there. There's organic demand for this and I don't see what's going to stop it. I agree, actually. I've said, and John Majorian said exactly the same. We said, listen, Bitcoin's the investment, it's the digital gold, it's the hedge, but Ethereum's probably the trade right now, in my mind. For the foreseeable future, even on the most basic level of, hey, look what Bitcoin did when it broke its all-time high, it tripled, and Ethereum hasn't done that.

So if you even want to take it there, but I believe today it broke its all-time high. It tripled and Ethereum hasn't done that, right? So if you even want to take it there, but I believe today Ethereum saw an all-time high in network transactions. I mean, it's actually being used and adopted in the DeFi space. It's not just an idea. So I think that, you know, I agree. And also just technically the chart looks ridiculous. Yeah, well, it's always going to be fundamentals that really keep things going in the long term.

It's like one thing I learned on your podcast is some of the best performing accounts ever are the ones that where people die or never trade. Oh, she's tough. Yeah, it was great. I was like, yes, so true. I've learned the lesson the hard way, trying to be a trader.

Just that's why one time sometimes it's best if you have a big position. You got to skim a little bit, but not a lot. Just to test the bond guys. But to me, that's where I look at Ethereum is fundamental. I see what's happening. It's one that adoption for billing platforms, for smart contracts that can trade tokens, that can trade stocks 24-7. And by the way, if I'm an exchange, I'm getting worried here because, yes, the regulations come in this place, but look at Bitcoin. It never stopped trading 24-7, you know, last year when things were collapsing and there was no one, the fact that there was

no one responsible for it. I'll leave you on this. I'll never forget during the 9-11 attacks and the New York Stock Exchange was so proud of the fact that they opened up right away. And I had left the trading pitch in Chicago a little while ago, and they had all gone electronic. And they never had a problem. I'm like, sorry, but you're just the old technology, old analog. You should have gone electronic five years ago. You would have never had to shut down. And this is what's happening.

It's, you know, low guard pushes back, and then technology is taking over. And to me, this is what's happening with COVID is we're in that rapidly advancing stage of gradually then suddenly in terms of major technology taking over. So you just touched on the idea of skimming a bit off the top from profit. So I want to go back to Tesla because in my mind, that's somewhat what happened, right? They bought $1.5 billion worth. It doubled. They sold $270 million for a $110 million profit, I believe, meaning they have a hell of a lot more money in Bitcoin than they

did when they started and have now taken their initial out with profit. Playing with the house's money can never be questioned again that they made a good decision because they can't lose their investment. And it buoyed their quarterly earnings where they basically made no money selling cars. Right. So why does this piss people off so badly that this very savvy and seemingly obviously rational move? It's very important for our listeners to listen to some of the more experienced market people rather than tech people because I love tech they're driving the world they you know geeks are inheriting the earth and that's

why i encourage one of my sons to go there but there's a key thing about the discipline and the lessons of markets that will never change since the beginning of trading and it was the first profession i'm sorry it was just trading it was not what other people might believe and that is the prudence of proper money managers i..e. you buy some Bitcoin in your portfolio, your money managers, it doubles in value. It's an overweight. Prudently, sometimes, sometimes versus other things, sometimes you have to skim that a little. And that's what's happening with Bitcoin. We go through these cycles. It goes up 10x, hangs out for a while, up another 10x, corrects and hangs out for a while. And I think that's where we're now. But it's just the part of the maturation.

But it's that lesson is number one lesson I learned on Wall Street and in the trading pitches. It's all about taking some profits because what's the alternative? It's like people complain about aging. Well, what's the alternative? Taking some profits is the essence of the business. That's all they did. Yes, he might have framed it looking for liquidity, but you got to skim some off the top once

while. I like to use the simplest method that I use is don't mess with the market gods. Feed the market gods a little. Give a little money back to the market and say, thank you. And that's all that is. It's a simple lesson that's very profound, but also very simple way to look at it in terms of karma. Yeah, so true. I mean, they made like $400 million in the quarter. $110 of that was Bitcoin. And the other 300 was credits, right? Like energy credits. They actually didn't make money selling cars. So if you're Tesla and you're sitting there and you're like, we can take this number from 300 to 400, make it our most profitable quarter ever by skimming a little Bitcoin, seems like a good move. So I want to go there a little bit, and then we can go on to wherever you want to go next. Because I had the honor of interviewing Kathy Wood for the Bitcoin Crypto Summit.

And I had to bring up that trade, long Bitcoin, short Tesla. And here's what's happening in the real world. It's long GBTC, the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, short Tesla. I'm not saying you don't have to short Tesla, but so far in the year, as much as people poo-poo this trust, I see GBTC up about 46%, and Tesla's unchanged. Okay, so yes, unfortunately, there was a premium in this trust, and now at the discount, but you're still the most significant asset on the planet with the best performance of 46%.

It's pretty good. So, and if we get into this ETF space, it's going to be an ETF that premium, that discount, which is six or 7% got pretty extreme last week, is going to go back to flat and still appreciate an asset. Yet Tesla has already priced to where I think Bitcoin's going. It's the largest market cap automaker on the planet. And if you're anyone who's smart and any automaker, you're doing everything you can to catch up to Tesla. I mean, Ford knocked the cover off the ball for a while,

and then GM and all the other makers came in and beat up on them with competition. So I see that happening, but I don't think Bitcoin's near that plateau yet. But I love that position. I'm not so bearish Tesla, but I just think Bitcoin has a more bullish trajectory at the moment, even though Tesla outperformed it last year. Interesting. And so you obviously made the comparison that Bitcoin is the Tesla and these other auto manufacturers are somewhat the gold, but they are in a position to innovate and evolve as well. If they could put Bitcoin on their balance sheets,

that would be huge news and a big move. And they could start accepting Bitcoin for their cars. Whether people want to spend their Bitcoin on a car is a completely different question. So do you think that we'll see that with other automakers just because they want to compete? Well, it's kind of one of those things in life, human nature, you kind of have to.

If you're falling behind and you're losing, you'll do anything to catch up. It's like, do you want to be Kodak? Do you want to be Blockbuster? Do you want to be Sears? Even Walmart's getting crushed by Amazon. This is just massively advancing technology. So I don't know so much about the Tesla part, but they have to do something to lead the world to catch up with autonomous cars and electric vehicles, because it is almost a fact that just following simple trends right now the cost of a typical ev will be low that of a internal combustion engine about in car in about five years i have an electric car i'm a volt i'm a poor man's tesla to cover it's just an awesome vehicle i bought it with subsidies but it's just a fact and once we have the charging and increasing,

just to figure normal appreciation and the ability to charge and battery costs going down and, you know, maybe getting to a 500 mile range and charging 15 minutes, because that's just a matter of time, unless things go backwards, which they won't, this is just going to happen. So the rest of the manufacturers get it. But the key thing I like to compare with Bitcoin is there's 9,000 wannabes who've tried to be like Bitcoin. Ethereum is the only one that's gotten close. And it's for

a different reason. Ethereum to me is a completely different investment. It's not like they're ever going to be the one that's adopted like Bitcoin as a global reserve asset that you would never use to buy a car, never use to spend. History has proven the last thing you want to do is spend a collectible. You might skim some off when you need a little bit, but you spend digital dollars. And the thing about Tesla is the competition is just going to have to dig in. If it doesn't, just, you know, capitalism's got to kick in a little. They have to. The key thing I want to bring into this is the rest of the world, as far as balance sheets,

sovereign wealth funds, and central banks essentially have to allocate some of their money to Bitcoin because 10, 20, 100 years from now, what if it is a digital version of gold? What if gold is replaced? One of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes is when gold was replaced 50 years in the future. It was worthless. That is something that is trickle up domino effect. You have to take those one or two units and put some in gold just for that risk that

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right? Morgan Stanley says, hey, our wealthy clients can gain exposure if you hold $2 million. If you have $2 million with Morgan Stanley, we'll allow you the honor. We love that. We love that narrative. Yeah. Be able to buy Bitcoin. So now, hater of all haters, Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan opening a Bitcoin fund for their wealthy clients. So do you think that we see those dominoes just falling in the same way? They have to. It's classic human nature. It's just one of those things. It's like, OK, so you're still using a lamp for light and the neighbor's got a light bulb and electricity. It's just the key thing that I really found profound was a few weeks ago, there was a Bloomberg story that said about Goldman was doing something. The quote was in there, customer demand. Every place I hear it's

from client customer demand. If you're losing assets, and I heard this from one of my good friends I've known for 30 years in the business who manages a lot of his money, his quote was two years ago, he says, I'm afraid of GBTC because if I get involved with it, I could get sued. But now he says, customers want to get into this space. They need exposure to Bitcoin and cryptos, and they're just finding out ways to do it. ETF gets them over that hump, but it's organic. That's why I like to point out is this is an organically developed asset on a global basis. We've never seen that. Really, that's happening from the ground up, rather than trickling down like SPACs or junk bonds or something like that from Wall Street. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So then I'm

curious, what becomes the place for gold if Bitcoin really does continue on this trajectory? It always, gold, of the 118 elements, gold will still always be used for jewelry and it's very shiny and beautiful. And if you drop it on the bottom of the ocean 5,000 years from now, it'll still be there and it'll look just the same once you clean it off, let's officiate it, but the fish will poop it later and you'll find it someplace later. But I mean, it's indestructible. So it always have that value, but in investment portfolios as in central banks, it's being replaced.

We just look at this problem. Anytime there's a war, what's the first thing you see? Say Alexander the Great, the Nazis, you name it, the Contisodors, you always go for the gold, but's gone now if if the world starts going to i mean it's not gone it's still there but if the world's going to a digital version of gold that's not really you can't really steal and easily transportable and transmittable it's just oh you know what that sounds like to me human nature just made a major leap and we just haven't figured it out yet some people are really smart in bitcoin it took me a while some people are really smart on but the rest of the world is so to me that's what's happening is gold will always be pretty but investment foreclosures i mean it's been falling

to the wayside forever etfs really pushed pushed it back up it was kind of the things from you know up to the up to like the year 2000 and it's really you know it's yeah etfs helped but since then the stock market's been such a cool place, the best place to be. I view now Bitcoin as taking over that gold space in portfolios. And I don't think a lot of the gold people get it yet, but they know the risks. They're aware of the risk. And unless they're not an astute money manager, they realize, OK, this is risk reward. I got to at least allocate some of this gold I was going to put into gold or I have in gold to Bitcoin

because the greater risk that Bitcoin just keeps doing what it has been doing for its 12 years of existence. And that is well in the way becoming the world's digital reserve asset. Well, you say the market's always right, obviously. So does that replacement occur

when the market caps flip? I mean, is it simply when the market says, hey, Bitcoin's worth more than gold? See, I kind of dispute how they measure gold, because never going to use Bitcoin as jewelry and to make a watch, which happened a lot during when the government banned it. People just made these cheap watches made out of gold. I mean, it's jewelry. So I view Bitcoin as some of the key things. I see Bitcoin getting to maybe more than the value of gold, potentially. So people use, what, 12 million ounces and they say the average that would bring Bitcoin to about half a million dollars.

I think there's potential it can be more than that, particularly if it just keeps doing the same. Now, that's a big, far out thing. But measuring something based on a total that's been mined in history of mankind, and a lot of it's locked away, not used for investment purposes, versus Bitcoin solely will be used on balance sheets for financial purposes. It's different. I think it fits into that financial space much better. Now, let's look forward. So I guess you look at total investment assets in the world, bonds and stocks are about $200 trillion.

And Bitcoin is what, a fraction of that right now? Let's just say it gets to 1%. So, that's $2 trillion Bitcoin. How about 10%? $20 trillion Bitcoin. That's, guess what, a million dollar Bitcoin, $1 million per Bitcoin could get there. The problem is I think we're going to, we might be running into price resistance where the price is so high, you know, like when you do a stock split, as one of your guests would point out a lot of times it makes it more attractive, but.

Yeah. But Mark is saying we've, we've kind of referenced my conversation with Mark Yusko a few times. He said that we would just stop talking about Bitcoin and start talking about sats because there's 21 quadrillion of those. Yeah, I think I got it. I don't know if it's good or bad. I'm listening to your podcast because you get me too bullish. I need to embarrass things. It's always like you need to get more bullish. But that's the key thing that you bring out in your space is some of the smartest people on the planet get this and they all say the same thing and now it's so much of that the key thing that struck me about Michael

Slayer back in August was when he mentioned the history and a bridge that was built during Roman times I'm like you nailed me because that's where you got me I'm like oh it's the history of money and mankind that's where it brought me to I when I go to London, I love to go visit the hordes at the museum where people found a box of precious metals in the ground because someone couldn't transport it, couldn't come back and get it. And that's a problem in history humans have always had that's just been solved by digital assets, most notably Bitcoin. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So we talk about GBTC and the ETF endlessly. What happens to GBTC when there's an ETF? They have, this is part of the win-win case for GBTC I've seen since it traded around below 10 last year. And I cannot say, I haven't changed. And so GBTC right now is around 46 or so. Yeah,

46.7. It's got as high as 58. And year traded around five well of course we had that plunge but it's a win-win situation okay so if we um do launch ets we all know the whole price of bitcoin goes up gbtc converts to um etf and guess what it's the gld of the space gld is the most widely traded commodity in gold etf on the planet it would be the winner depending on when they launch it and the discount right now is around four or 5%, 5, 6% goes to zero. It has to, if it's an ETF. If we don't get ETFs, if they keep pushing it back, it might go back to a premium because it's the only place it's in. So the whole space will go down, but that premium comes back. Guess what? Fact is on regulated exchanges in the world, there's no larger asset that's appreciated more than GBTC.

And I'd love for someone to tell me which one it is that it has, because the only one that's really comparable is GLD and maybe a few stocks. But as far as assets like that, it's still, yeah, it's lost its premium. It's at a discount, but it's still outperforming virtually any other thing in anybody's portfolio. That's not a regulated exchange. I expect it to continue. GBTC is doing exceptionally well. Just the GBTC trade evaporated. But that has nothing to do with the asset itself.

That was people taking advantage of an opportunity. That's a really good point you make, which is basically that they'll be the biggest ETF on the planet, assuming that it converts over. So they've already got the name brand and they've already got the assets. And the downside is the ETF is gone and their premium just absolutely pumps again because the ETF has been rejected. I didn't really think about that side of it, which makes a ton of sense. So we now have another asset that you can buy without gaining direct exposure to Bitcoin, which is Coinbase stock. Yes. Right? So where do you think Coinbase stock fits, I guess, in a portfolio versus just buying Bitcoin?

Do you think that we'll see institutions buying Coinbase ahead of an ETF because they don't have an ETF? What do you make of their entrance into the market? I'm kind of confused by it. I go by the smart people and the fact that Kathy would like, so that means I like it. I used to see her in the morning train. So to me, it's all part of that infrastructure. But I do expect at some point in the future, history to repeat and the equity market to mean revert. It always has, always did, unless maybe it's different this time. And so at some point, this equity bubble we're in, it's a good bull market for good reasons.

We'll have some period of underperformance. And I do expect, if history is a guide, that Bitcoin will become a risk-off asset. I think we're going to be hitting that transition, but we're nowhere near it now. We still have this massive model, liquidity in the system, stock market can never go down. And, you know, things that have proven in history at some point that it always does. And Coinbase is a stock. So, and so I'm worried about the whole equity space and that's why I've been

overweight gold, precious metals, and suggesting overweight gold, precious metals in Bitcoin for a long time. And that's why I've been overweight gold, precious metals, and suggesting overweight gold, precious metals, and Bitcoin for a long time. And that portfolio is doing well. But the thing is, you can't hold precious metals now without Bitcoin in a bucket. I view it's a stock, and the whole stock market is the most expensive ever in terms of market cap versus GDP. We know that Warren Buffett lesson. And then I look over things that like real estate, well, relative to these still commercial real estate, I'm not sorry, not commercial, but residential, still pretty cheap historically. Yeah. So that's interesting. You think that the biggest obstacle for Coinbase is the stock market itself? Well, it is a stock. It is an equity. It is an equity. They make money. I get it. They'll probably outperform when we do get a

correction. The question is, is it going to happen in my lifetime? And I hope I have a long life. And I just appeared of underperformance. So just remember, it's an equity versus a physical asset. That's a digital reserve asset. It's a collectible. That's why I wanted equity piece of paper. As Sam Walton said, it's all paper versus Bitcoin. It's not paper. It's open source software, digital reserve assets. So different. Very different. Yeah. I just think there's people who maybe like the, you know, picks and shovels approach or they're just afraid, or they're still afraid of Bitcoin. And then I guess that, that leaves you at, you know, Coinbase, maybe you consider micro strategy ETF at this point. I don't know. And then, you know, there's been a lot of people that have been interested in mining stocks as well. I don't know if you track those at all, but I mean, they've basically been Bitcoin on steroids. They retrace harder, but they pump a lot harder as well. Yeah. I like the whole space. The key thing I like to point out about is we

will, if history is an example, get a bit of a cleansing flush in cryptos. It's just almost always happening. We're not near it now, but the fact that we have 9,000 now, last year we had 4,000 to 5,000, means ease of entry, simple use of economics, and massive supply means something's going to have to give eventually.

That's always happened. The last good example is the dot-com bubble that burst from 2000, and half these companies went out of business. So that will happen. It's a question of time. And when that happens, the trading firms will get hurt. Now, I'm born and raised in the business.

And we used to say in the trading fields, yeah, I was just one of the guys on the phone. I was not a trader. I was a guy on the phone dealing with institutional traders. And our job was to sell them shovels. And so we would just be in between trades, give them advice, tell them how to hedge and make money. And we sold them the shovel. So it's a great business. I love it. Like I said, Cathie Wood. But at some point,

when you do get that correction in the whole bubble of massive supply of cryptos, Coinbase will suffer because it's all about trading, right? I 100% agree with that. But what's interesting is that people always make the criticism, we're talking about gold and Bitcoin, that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, but that dollars and gold do. First of all, what do you make of the term intrinsic value? So that's a very good one. So I had to, there's this, first of all, Bitcoin does have simple intrinsic value if you look up what that means in a world of electrification. Typically, it means wattage, megawatt power, things like that.

And Bitcoin's intrinsic value is the largest decentralized network on the planet. And that's just getting over that hump of going from Blockbuster to Netflix. People have to adjust. This is the world. This is a new world. This is how things are. We don't have to touch music anymore and have an album to listen to it or um or watch movies we don't have to have that dvd or the but you know the cassettes it's it's all going that way so to

me the intrinsic value and tangible that the tangible value is the size of the network the jewels or i guess you could say or the megawatts or the power. And I got that from, I wrote a little while ago, Facts and Fantasies of Bitcoin, partly in relation to the same thing was written about commodities about 20 years ago. And that was one that a student suggested to me that I said, I didn't really think about because it's the main question he gets from his parents and the old guard. I'm like, the intrinsic value is the value of the network. And that's how you really measure these things in a world that's going digital and electrifying. For instance, here's a, how do you measure when you have like the value? I used

to have a Suburban, it had a 40 gallon tank. It was great. I'd fill that tank up and I felt like I have value in my gas tank. But now things going electric um it's the battery's charged but it's not a physical thing the battery's it's electrons it's a charge right it's just world's moving to this type of digitalization electrification that's the way i view it and also and then think of one of the drawbacks of gold is trying to transport it what does it cost to transport a decent amount of gold over an airplane from across, you know, maybe to Asia or the U.S.? And the amount of armed guards and expense and electricity for that. So to me, this is just the world going, humanity jumping up to the next level of existence that's actually better than the past. I agree. And I think that term intrinsic value being used for

a dollar, which is a piece of paper backed by trust in God we trust or the signature on the other side, I just think it's kind of a laughable comparison and really leads you down the road to what does it even mean to have intrinsic value? Because I agree with you. I think the network effect and all the things you discussed about Bitcoin give it more intrinsic value than a lot of these other assets. Well, I do believe in intrinsic value of the dollar. I pay my taxes in it and I earn in it. And it's the world's reserve currency. And China, Russia hate us for it. And guess what? They're going to continue to lose the battle as we go digital. Because I want to go there because there is any country in the world that has issues with currencies,

they all want dollars. I remember traveling when I was young in Europe and being in Greece and remember eating my way out of the country because, man, I love those euros, because the drachmas were worthless when you left the country. And I didn't go to South America, but it's worth it. I have a colleague in my office. He's from Zimbabwe. Guess what? He loves Bitcoin.

So to me, that's part of the intrinsic value of the dollar. It is actually increasing. Yes, there's massive money supply, but guess what? The problems here are less worse than the rest of the world. I mean, I don't think it's going in Europe. Yeah, it's all relative. And also a key thing I want to end on is I want to mention this to a lot of Bitcoiners, really push back on how bad what central banks are doing with printing money and everything is. The facts are they are being very prudent. This is one of the most deflationary periods in the history of mankind based on the back of one key thing, rapidly advancing technology. And I'll give you one example. The price of crude oil, 60 bucks a barrel. It peaked at 145 in 2008. So it's down, it dropped, well, dropped 100%, but it's down, what, 70%. Yet U.S. money supply has doubled since then. Quantitative easing from the G4 central banks has gone from 10% to 55%. They're just catching up to these

deflationary forces of rapidly advancing technology, pressuring prices. And a key spot for there is Bitcoin. Bitcoin is pressuring gold. Gold used to be the best hedge against dollar devaluation and inflation. And you can't have that gold anymore without Bitcoin in the same bucket. So that's a key thing that we always need to remember, especially technical people who push back on how bad central banks are and governments. They're just catching up to massively deflationary forces, i.e. you want to raise the minimum age? I think it's a great idea.

You're just going to replace people with robots and technology, and it's just going to give them more incentive to do that. Right, but what's the end game of that policy? I agree with you, but there's only two paths, right? You either print endlessly because, as you said, technology is deflationary. We're never going to have less technology. AI robots are going to replace your jobs. That makes goods cheaper. That's deflation, right? And there's a world, if you could teleport

us there, like Jeff Booth would argue, there's a world where we have this beautifully deflationary economy. People work like two hours a day because they don't need to have jobs, but things are so cheap that they can survive like that. We have a renaissance of ideas and entrepreneurship. And OK, that's great, but we can't get there without so much pain that it would be unimaginable. But the flip side of that is to try to pretend that this deflationary pressure doesn't exist and just print our way out of it, which also can't go on forever. What's the answer?

The answer is just what you said. There's no end. There's only one way for it to end. First of all, I'm glad you mentioned Jeff Booth. I'm listening to his book for the third time now and my weekends. I just love that, The Price is Tell. I'm addicted to that.

Another one similar is that 21 Lessons of the 21st Century by Yuvo Noah Harara. I can't really pronounce the name. Yeah, the same guy who wrote Sapiens. that the price of I'm addicted to that. Another one similar is that 21 Lessons of the 21st Century by Yuvonua Harara. I can't really pronounce the same. Yeah, the same guy who wrote Sapiens. Yeah, exactly. It's just like, yes, that's where the US needs to lead the world. And that's why we have to accept ETFs. And we have to embrace the technology because you don't have venture capital in China, we will crush China. If we simply embrace rapidly in-tech technologies. No way they can keep up to this inherent spirit, this DNA of America, just find a better way to do things. So to me, that's why we got to accept this. It's part of that war that's getting more significant and it's getting down to bit on cryptos and digitals. But I completely agree

with you. There's only one, there's other ways out of it. Maybe we really do well with it, but you have to diversify and be prudent up your Robin hood and put that a hundred bucks in Bitcoin. And so you can look back and when dad's an old dad's gone, you can say, Oh, thanks. You did me a favor, old man. That's funny. I love it. So I'm curious, we just saw, we we've alluded to, and you know, we're obviously recording this on April 27th, but we saw the drop from 65,000 to 47,000. We had endless narratives for why that happened, but I think it's somewhat clear when you see 10 billion in liquidations and under a day that it was too much leverage in the system and that was just being rinsed. How much of a threat? We all agree that Bitcoin is an exceptionally valuable asset and spot to own yourself as a

reserve, but most of the market is seemingly leveraged, right? And it's people trading derivatives. So how much of a threat is that to the actual value or to the actual, you know, importance or to the future of Bitcoin as a reserve asset? Yeah, so I love this narrative. I'll answer the question and I'll give you an example, Bitcoin volatility, 260 volatility is on a trajectory to be the same as gold, which is around 20% in about four or five years. That's a fact based on the regression analysis since 2011. Just a fact. Bitcoin volatility, 260 volatility is only slightly above that of Amazon at the moment. In fact, it's about where Amazon, it's much lower than where Amazon was 10 years ago. And that doesn't include when it traded in the pink sheets. So looking forward, greater depth, increased adoption, Bitcoin volatility will decline and it'll continue to decline.

So if you say it's too volatile now, there's a good risk you're going to miss out. And that's where some of you'll hear it is volatility is the opportunity. Like John said, you look to buy dips and volatility gives you those dips once you drop to 20 percent volatility i didn't say if um you won't get those anymore and it'll be probably from a much higher plateau with tons of participants etfs futures options you name it everything um leveraging that market and keeping it in check and you'll push away the R like one R I find very impressive right now is you'll be able to buy GBTC at a discount and sell futures at a premium thank you very much a lot of people going to do that that's going to go away with greater

participation so I think it's just a matter of time volatility right now is the opportunity for those who are astute enough to look forward and it's the bane of people who are saying who look back and say it's too volatile and like you're not looking forward. Where's this going? Volatility will drop below that of gold if it continues to do what it's doing. And guess what? If it remains volatile, then you didn't lose a big portion of your portfolio. So it's just going to suck everybody in. And when the volatility decreases, it becomes a lot less fun to trade. And a lot of that leverage will probably find its way out of the system. Yeah. Well, the leverage, it'll get arbed out. So I look at it simplistically. When I came to New York in 93, I left the trading pits. I was honored that we had the honor of being

promoted from the pits to New York, which is a big deal. I guess I got them fooled. And I came to be an over-the-counter option market maker in US treasuries, the most liquid market on the planet. right? And there's no VIG. I mean, I make bids and offers, only offers, only people, only bids, only people ever want to do sell calls. And there was no way I could sell that at a decent spread. And same thing in cryptos right now, anybody who's making markets can probably get 10, 20, 30% bid offer spreads. Those are awesome. They're all going to be arved out as the market gets bigger with just more greater depth, more participation. ETFs are part of that. It's right now a trader's dream. Those who are smart enough to hedge their deltas properly, bid an

offer, and just look at selling the shovels of markets. They provide liquidity. But the more liquidity they provide, the more narrow, the spreads narrow, volatility declines. And there's one key fact I would leave you with. Every market, every commodity has two key factors for volatility, supply and demand. Bitcoin only has one. Supply's fixed, demand's a matter of time. So I had to make this example to my kids recently. I made them watch that movie Trading Places because the whole sense of that movie was about the uncertainty of a crop report, which is supply. They didn't know what the supply was going to be. Bitcoin supply fixed 900 coins a day until 2024, then to 450. And then for the next four years after that, then to 225. It's a fact of the code. All that matters is demand. So volatility will decline

because there's only one measure that's uncertain, and that's demand. So Bitcoin is not frozen, concentrated orange juice to reference that movie, I suppose. But the more you talk about it, like you said, you've said it so many times in this conversation, I just don't understand how you can be bearish, but that's problematic. The more things we say, I mean, I just, I can't, I can't find it. I need, I need to get like Peter Schiff on here or something. Yeah. Someone to push back. And, um, I, gosh, if Nori Robini ever flips, I, I, boy, that's the day you sell. I always joke that Schiff, Schiff capitulation is the top. You know, I, I live, um, I think I mentioned this. I, I, at least his You know, I live, I think I mentioned this, I live in his old house. I live about two miles from where he does in Weston, Connecticut.

And I used to see him in town, actually sat next to him at a few events. But I think he moved. Probably found out you were there and got scared. That's right, get the heck out. And what do you make, just to completely pivot, but something I just wanted your opinion on, because last week's narrative was Biden and taxes. It's a good problem in life to have to pay. That's for my father.

Good advice from my father, who's an accountant and ended up as a CFO of a steel company, is having to pay taxes as long as it's based on income and as long as you pay your fair share. That's just part of being in a good system and you're never going to get away from death and taxes. Now, that's fully expected. We all knew it was coming. The fact is for people over income of a million dollars,

that's a very small percentage of the population. And it depends if it's going to be passed. So I look at that as great. Finally, an excuse for a dip, an excuse to flush out, as I mentioned, the word you use, you need to flush out those speculative excesses, bring the market to the more um the stronger hands and there's a lot of people buying bitcoin right now who don't plan on ever selling it um and just holding on to a certain portion of it and letting pass on the generation worry about the wealth tax yeah i mean exactly because i just

love to be able to look at this from the future. People like Ben Franklin said he just would love to come back to see how things would advance and see where this goes. And I look at it as if it fails, I'm not going to really care about certain percentage, but if we just continue what we're doing, which I fully expect we will, it's going to be worth a lot of money. And taxes are just part of life,

and you should expect to pay taxes, and I hope people do. It's just not worth it messing with the IRS. I have a father who's an accountant and a son who's an accountant. That's a good business, being an accountant, because you're always going to get paid to figure out the system. Yeah, and I think that a lot of people who think they're going to get away with something now aren't really understanding that they can come in six years when they have the technology and come take it all and more.

I had a colleague talk to me the other day about how he was and not you know finding ways to not pay taxes on profits why just pay them i mean come on thank god it's profits thank god for the system you're allowed to do this thank god you weren't born in uganda somebody zimbabwe it's just that's just part of it and there's certain things you should do in life and that's pay if it's you know hopefully it's not too much and then there's ways around it you can um you know it within the law on the system but i view it as just part of life is and paying taxes on capital gains is part of the goal in in the business and just imagine if you have to take losses you can only write down 3 000 a year and that's been the same for what 20 years yeah exactly so uh talk to me about your plumber dogecoin oh man so what what

i i complimented him so him and his son came over we were talking he bought doge around five cents so my sons are teasing about it so i i double-dogged there they were teasing each other at bars they're you know they're back out and in and social media everybody's it's it. It's such a fun thing. It's the doge. But some people are going to get hurt. So they're trading it 24-7 at bars. It's not like the stock market bubble. I remember in 2000, you'd go to a cocktail party,

and people all talked about the stocks they were buying. And like, okay, but you couldn't do that on weekends. Doge is happening globally on your phones, and's just fun some people are hundred dollars my plumber said he put a hundred in i think it's up to like 600 and he sold some like yeah perfect that's just like going to vegas risk a thousand bucks expect to lose it and play have fun but the thing is at some point maybe it gets to one i don't know but it's to me it's indicative of the big dichotomy in the market. There's Doge. It's play money. It's casino money.

Play with it. It does have a unique probability, a unique attribute. It's no one's project, no one's liability. Not like Ethereum. I mean, that's Vitalik's project. But play with it. And then there's Bitcoin. Bitcoin's serious.

Bitcoin's getting very serious. Global digital reserve asset. They're different. And anytime you make profits, I mean, maybe scroll some over the Bitcoin. And then, of course, there's always cash. And it's always good to just a rule of life when you make money paying profits, just making profits, just pay your taxes. I mean, there is the problematic side of it, which is that people who maybe don't understand

the space actually think it's a serious asset. Yeah, well, it's not. It's fun. I mean, it's, it's just, take it as fun. It's never going to be the digital reserve asset, but gosh, I shouldn't never say never either. I mean, yeah, never say never, but you know, portfolio, there you go. Yeah. And also, you know, it, it helps that for all the years of trading crypto, we've had these assets that you could only trade on crypto exchanges.

And then Doge all of a sudden is just everywhere. Right. I mean, you can gain exposure to Doge. It's seemingly everywhere. I had a look at the price, 27 cents. I think that is high as 40. And that was about 45, I think. But, you know, who knows? I heard it's casino money.

Play with it. Right, but a dollar wouldn't surprise you, you said, but neither would a penny, I assume. Exactly. And at some point, to me, it's indicative of the, you know, there's coinmarketcap.com, 9,460 cryptos. Okay, that's kind of signs of speculative excess. Doge is fun.

There's going to be a flush. It always is, always has been, and always will be. But, and be prepared for that and be ready and don't be complaining that you lost too much money. And that's why entities like, you know, once a while it's good to scale profits. Certain things like this, I remember during the internet,

by the way, anytime I bought a stock that were just fun, that doubled the money, I'd sell half. And then just, you half. And then you play with the house's money and have some fun. Okay. So you brought up the internet bubble. We have 9,000 something assets. Is that what happens here? I mean, do we see five or 10 or even a hundred or a thousand make it through, but we see literally 8,000 something assets go to zero? I don't know. If history is a guy, there has to be a flush. It's a question of time. I think Bitcoin and Ethereum win, most notably Bitcoin. Again, Bitcoin is different, digital reserve asset. But just the fact of economics, the rules of economics do not play well in this environment. Unlimited supply, ease of entry, not play well in this environment. Unlimited supply,

ease of entry, prices will not go up forever. That totally makes sense. I know we're running against it here with time. But I mean, you said it earlier, stocks only go up, they only keep printing. You've said it has to end at some point, but is this the kind of thing that could just keep going on for decades? Yeah, decades is scary because it could. I mean, who knows? It just, it's always been some form of shakeout. I mean, we had a quick little one last year that was sharp, but it was so short. It was not a bear mark. It was just a correction in a bull market.

And COVID. Yeah, exactly. And a good reason for it. So I just look at it in terms of relative value, the highest stock market capitalization ever to GDP US on a global basis is not a good place to be looking to load up and overweight. We also have what's happening demographically. Millennials are cashing in. We have alternative assets like real estate that looks somewhat attractive. And then there's things like Bitcoin that is in the price discovery stage of getting to become the global digital reserve asset. So I think

underweighting equities and overweighting some of those other assets probably is the prudent thing for a lot of investors to be doing. And there's certain lessons in life. You just, you don't want to be overweight equities at the highest market cap, the GDP in history of mankind. I couldn't agree. And I think that's a great way to conclude. So where can everybody follow you and keep up with your work? Well, I'm on Twitter, Mike McGlone 11, but a key thing I really use and respond to is LinkedIn because of the potential professional connection with Bloomberg. So I'm happy to link in with anybody.

And if you want to get on my distribution list, I'm happy to do that too. It's like the greatest thing to wake up to is when I get one of your emails, I have to say, including today. So thank you so much. This is, I mean, you're just my favorite person to talk to. I absolutely love these conversations.

I have a feeling that you'll be a guest like your seventh time in 2029. We'll still be hopefully doing this if I have a podcast. Well, the way you started, the last time we talked it was 10,000. Man, if we're up 5X from the next time we speak, that would be a bit of a shock. But I do want to thank you

because I find you, your questions, your tone and how you ask the questions and your voice is like one of the best in the business. So I really appreciate what you do. So thank you. That means so much. Thank you so much. And we will do it again soon.