The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin Rips Toward $75K! Most Confusing Market In History?

Episode Date: April 14, 2026

Bitcoin is ripping toward $75K, up 17% since the U.S.–Iran war kicked off and outperforming stocks, gold, and silver as traders call Trump's bluff on the Strait of Hormuz. But while the S&P sits 3% from all-time highs, consumer sentiment just hit the lowest level in recorded history. Add in the Clarity Act returning to the Senate, stablecoin payments moving tax-free, the Fed approving Kraken as the first digital asset bank, Deutsche Börse dropping $200M into Kraken, a Kraken extortion scandal, and the Bitcoin halving officially hitting its halfway mark — and you've got the most confusing market in modern history. Today we break down whether Bitcoin is front-running a policy-driven breakout, or masking the fractures forming underneath the entire financial system. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Tellus Online Security. Oh, tax season is the worst. You mean hack season? Sorry, what? Yeah, cybercriminals love tax forms. But I've got Tellus Online Security. It helps protect against identity theft and financial fraud so I can stress less during tax season or any season.

Plan started just $12 a month. Learn more at tellus.com slash online security. No one can prevent all cybercrime or identity theft. Conditions apply. Bitcoin ripped towards $75,000 in the most confusing market in history. But maybe the bigger story right now isn't Bitcoin's performance. It's the fact that in an event like as common as seeing unicorns mating in the metaverse, we have Ethereum outperforming Bitcoin by a pretty significant margin.

Ethereum up almost 13% in a 24-hour period. We're going to unpack that. And everything else in the markets with Andrew Tillman. and of course Josh Frank from the tie. That's good. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to said Metaverse, where unicorns have been mating. I didn't know that that's what my background would look like today. I was surprised by my producers, but I'm going to be honest.

I like it. I feel like I'm in either Narnia or the Lord of the Rings, and both are equally more pleasant than actual planet Earth right now with this news cycle. I've got Tillman, Andrew, and Josh. Good morning, gentlemen. How are you? Good morning. None of you appear to be in the Metaverse.

I'm not sure I know how to do that on this software, but if I can figure it out, I'll join you. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like the Metaverse we were promised was Zuck with no legs having a board meeting. So whatever I'm doing is much better. I'm not surprised that the Metaverse died. But let's talk about Bitcoin. Bitcoin at $74,573 right now. We've got an article here that says it's because of Trump's bluff on Iran. Whatever.

whatever. We can get a narrative for literally anything. But like I said, Ethereum actually outperforming pretty big. That's not something we often see where there's enough confidence in the market or I guess enough risk on that you see even Ethereum, the largest all coin, outperforming Bitcoin. I mean, Josh, what do you make at the price action right now? Or is it all of us getting extremely bullish right at resistance again? I mean, I'm not a technical trader. So I can't talk about, you know, resistance or not resistance. It's not really my expertise. All lines matter. I think it's all lines matter. All lines matter for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination of things. I mean, I think it's bullishness and hope that, you know,

Trump wants to end the Iran war solely, you know, or primarily because he only likes when markets go up. And, you know, he created something where markets go down, even if he, you know, thinks the war should continue. I think he cares about markets. it's more than anything else. And so I think there's certainly some optimism there. I think also there's some optimism about the fact that Saudi and other countries have created ways to move oil that don't revolve around the Strait of Formuz. Also, the fact that Iran is demanding Bitcoin for payment for people to cross the Strait of Hormuz. So I think it's a confluence of things. There's also a little bit of increased chatter about potentially the Fed

still cutting rates this year. Obviously, the market isn't really pricing it. But there's still a chance. Yes, I think it's a combination of things. And the way that crypto moves is everyone trades with so much leverage that, you know, you get a little bit of a move, you get some liquidations, and you get a much bigger move. And so I imagine that that's probably part of the equation as well. Or we had almost a billion dollars in inflows in the ETFs last week. And we had Morgan Stanley's ETF come to market.

And I don't think these things are necessarily. And Michael Saylor and Michael Saylor bought a billion dollars in Bitcoin. Yeah. My point is I don't think these things are... I don't think these things are ores. I think these things are ands, right? It's always a combination of things that's going to move to market. I mean, he did at $1.1 billion in volume yesterday on STRC.

Now we're getting back to calling it the Infinite Money Litch and the press, which I don't love. That's not great. But that, you know, I think people say he could have bought six. 600 or 700 million just yesterday on these flows, right, after the announcement of whatever he did last week. Crazy. I think we're seeing the biggest shift in holders and types of holders that Bitcoin's ever seen. The gates, the on ramps for paper Bitcoin, for ETFs, for all sorts of derivative products,

options, all of that is driving more capital into our market. And there is a very different narrative on both sides of the fence. If you're late to Bitcoin or some would say from an institutional perspective very early to Bitcoin, you know, you're not at your allocation percentage that you want to be. You're still acquiring Bitcoin. And so you're looking for, okay, how much further you're doing analysis, you know, every all-line matter type of analysis as to where you think you should be putting all-of-your- your purchase orders then. And I think that there's more people coming into that than there could

ever be sellers in Bitcoin. And so it's just a matter of major whales, you know, kind of getting their bag finally. You know, we've always joked about kind of the guys in the van down by the river with, you know, a thousand Bitcoin. Well, you know, I know I've heard personally, you know, through multiple friends, a lot of those guys are selling and they're kind of cashing out. That's a good sign. Why? Because there's buyers available and the price isn't plummeting to nothing. It's literally getting soaked up as fast as it can get soaked up by Wall Street. And, you know, those folks have a lot more liquidity and a lot lower allocation percentage. and the next wave, they're not going to be forced sellers and or enticed sellers like the folks that have,

you know, that started what started the industry. There's too much money for them to go get right now and change their entire, you know, their entire lives. And I will say this, there's a lot of companies that are built on blockchain. And those people also become forced sellers if they're not profitable. I don't want to name names, but there's lots of exchanges that are not profitable. And there's lots of people having to sell Bitcoin in order to support those efforts. And more power to them. That is innovation at its finest.

There's a lot of market share to be made and people are going after it full tilt. Because the integration and the things that I really look at to see whether the price matters if it's falling, the price can be an indicator. It can be one data point along with many others to tell you that something's wrong. But if it's just price and everything else is going the opposite direction, you know, you have more financial institutions adding ETFs that are Bitcoin related. You've got a ton of products being created and integration being created across, you know, I saw a headline this last weekend that now on Cracken, it's basically all equities,

tokenized equities are now available. So 24-7 markets, 365 markets are being announced on every front. Well, there's only one type of asset that can be traded 365, 24-7, and it's tokenized assets. So to think that we're like shrinking as an industry just because the price, you know, is doing what it's done. It is very unpredictable. And markets and people don't like unfurricular. predictability. But the amount of dry powder out there and the amount of allocation that we could pick up during these uncertainties, I think is, you know, it bodes well to me that Bitcoin's doing

as well as it's doing. Yeah, legacy finance keeps buying crypto-adjacent crypto-direct type of tech, right? So Deutsche Boris, you know, why are they putting a bunch of money into Cracken? Well, they want to share notes, right, having to do with 24-7 trading. Nasdaq did the same. NYSC did the same. Everybody is getting their hands into, okay, we know where this is headed. We're probably not all that ready. So let's go find some partners who've been doing it for a long time and figure this out because there's money to be made here. So it is, you know, traditional commentators, there's traditional financial journalism, all those things. They've laughed at crypto for such a long time.

They still do, by the way. But then there's also the reality of what's happening in the traditional financial space, wanting access to crypto, opening up access to crypto, because there's tons of money to be made, whether it's the tokenized world that is directly attached to 24-7 trading. Black Rock won't shut up about it. And that means that once BlackRock won't shut up about tokenization, which they've been talking about for six to nine months, well, now you see all these legacy organizations that frankly, you know, are almost beholden to BlackRock products in terms of volumes. They now are doing things and taking positions in organizations that will help them move to the tokenized space as quickly as possible.

I find this cracking deal really, really interesting, actually, because as you said, they took 200 million from effectively the, it's like the ice of Germany, right? Really, operator of the exchange. It's actually a down round, right? Because Cracken raised, I think, at a 20 billion valuation from Citadel and others, another $200 million at the late 2025. And this is $200 million at a $13.3 billion. So, like, I think uneducated people are looking at it and saying, Cracken just became worth less, right ahead of IPO. But I think if you actually look at it, it's more of a strategic investment from an operating. I don't know. Cracken has, Cracken has been on a buying spree and has spent a tremendous amount of money trying to get ready for IPO. They were planning on IPOing in Q1.

They weren't ready. I think the CFO might have gotten ousted. There was some turmoil going on there. I wouldn't necessarily look at it. This is pure, I'm sure maybe there's a strategic aspect, but this might also been an aspect of they thought there was going to be a capital raise that came alongside an IPO. That didn't happen. They needed more money. They went out and raised. And I want to comment on all this tokenization stuff. I think this concept that tokenization means crypto prices go up is a misconception because I have a lot of these conversations with institutions. And, you know, ultimately a lot of these institutions are basically going to go the route of like,

But think like, you know, if you're building a business, right, and you're figuring out where to store your data, you're going to get a quote from AWS, Google Cloud, you know, data bricks, whatever, all these different data companies and data storage companies. And you're going to figure out where you want to store your data based off what's cheapest. And there are a lot of conversations that are happening around tokenization and moving money around and transactions where, you know, you look at places like the DTCC that are plugging into like 20 different chains. And ultimately, they're going to choose to go wherever is the cheapest and the most efficient and also where more institutions are. So I think you've got to take with a grain of salt whether or not, I think we're yet to see whether tokenization is going to do anything. I mean, tokenization is nothing to you with Bitcoin.

I mean, yes, Bitcoin is crypto and tokenization happens on crypto rels, but tokenization is not happening on Bitcoin, right? So I think we need to be pragmatic and practical about what the actual impact of this stuff is going to be. Yeah, I think that you just raised the point that we discuss here all the time, which is that it's definitely being adopted, but will we be able to participate in any of it as retail? What can we buy that will actually go up? Or what do we hold is a better question that will actually go up?

To the fat protocol thesis, right? Which I think it's worth revisiting. And if anybody doesn't know, the fat protocol thesis was introduced by Union Square Ventures in 2017 or 2018. Basically, the idea that in the Internet, all of the value went to the, the apps, right? The value didn't go to HCTPS. The value went to Yahoo and AOL. And obviously, over time, it's changed from Yahoo and AOL and Pets.com. But the idea, the thesis originally was that all the value was going to accrue to the protocol, you know, the protocol, the L1 layer. There we go, 2016, even longer, even longer than 2018. But I think we're starting to see a shift

and a change where, you know, you've seen, you know, what's selling off in crypto the hardest is a lot of these layer ones and layer two's, you know, the L2s are getting smoked for the most part, and a lot of the applications that are actually generating revenue are starting to be the, you know, the projects that are thriving and growing. And so I think, you know, I think, you know, the if tokenization continues to take shape, and by the way, leaves pilot phases and enters production phases because a lot of these tokenization initiatives are pilots and they're testing grounds and value does not accrue to L1s and L2s. And I think it also has to do with how the L1s and two is are designed. I think Canton, for example, has done a very good design with their

burnment equilibrium. So I think a lot of these layer ones, I mean, you saw, for example, Starkware yesterday firing a huge percentage of their staff and deciding, hey, we need to focus on profitability. We need to revisit what we're doing here. Right. I think you're going to need to see a bit of a, yeah, well, yeah, I agree with you. But, but yeah, like, I think you're going to need to, you know, I think there needs to be more dynamics than, you know, I think just we are a chain that an institution is building on that has a token doesn't mean token price is going to go up because it doesn't necessarily mean values accruing to token holders. And I think that that like conversation is starting to happen and needs to happen a lot more because certain chains when

institution chooses to build on it is going to have a much bigger impact on the token than other chains. Yeah. I would agree and I would say it a little differently. I think we're finally at the age of utility. I think we've looked for alt coins and the true utility behind them and the use cases to come to life in the real world and create the deltas that we know it can create, but also improve customer experience at the same time. The user experience is what drives all of this. If people find value in the interface and in the tools that you provide, look at Pump Fun. Pump fund may be totally dead. I have no idea what it's going to look like in the future.

But boy, the volume was insane when it was at its peak. And what does that show? It shows you that if you build something that is a market and you allow the gates to be open for people to participate, then people will come. So if you then take that narrative and you apply it. By the way, pump fund is still doing, it's done 500 million in revenue over the last year. it's still doing, you know, on a good day, on an average day, one to two million in revenue. So it's still massive.

Yeah, that's still, exactly. And so you just take up the narrative. And you say, okay, well, they're Napster. I'm not saying they are. And that no, no implications beyond just the, the point I'm trying to make. You know, they came out of nowhere. They provided something that had millions and millions of people found value. you in. They built a market and then, you know, bigger boys came around and said, well, we're going to

create Apple music and try to compete with the fact that we can do exactly what you can do, but we can run, you know, we can sue you into oblivion. And so you're going to see this war for, I think, supremacy on the alt-coin list. And the alt-coins are not going to survive unless, they partner with the legacy providers that have users that are built into the equation that they can literally just plug and play. And I think that's what you- I think Jeff and Hyper Liquid beg to differ. Well, Jeff and Hyper Liquid, again, though, they built something that is one of its kind and it's very unique. And I think that they're on the bleeding edge. And as long as they can stay on that bleeding edge, then more power to them.

I thought something like they've made almost a billion, I don't want to misquote the number, was 900 million or a billion in total revenue so far, hyperlickle with 11 employees. Yeah. Oh, I think it's a million. No, I think that was never dated. That might be very dated last year. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's way higher than that.

What would you say that they would disagree with what I said? I'm not picking up on. Oh, I thought your point was that you said you have to partner with traditional institutions. They are not really doing that. They're building everything themselves. and they are growing massively with a team of 10. Well, I agree, but I'm saying that they've run like one mile in the marathon. They will partner with somebody eventually, or they will run the risk of someone going after their

market share. And that's just the nature of business. Like look at every single business that's ever existed. And when you're successful, you create competition. And that competition. I'm not disagreeing with you create competition. but my point being is they're doing 800 million in annualized fees, 700 million in revenue going back to token holders.

And they're eating into not just crypto revenue streams. It's a fraction of what the CME is doing and what other traditional exchanges are doing, but they're actually winning volume. But what's your point? Are you saying they're never going to partner with anyone in the traditional? My point is that you can still disrupt things that happen in traditional capital markets. That's as far from my point as I was not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the markets need each other in order to put the best product on the street.

You know, there's a lot of users out there that aren't going to use hyperliquid. They're never going to even understand what hyperliquid is. Can we agree that the vast majority of people want on ramps that have a grade that looks like this, not that looks like this? and hyper liquids looks like this. And so the ease of use and the user interface itself and the amount of people that you can serve matter as it pertains to market share. And there are two worlds that have very distinct customer bases that are served by different products, different user interfaces, different worlds apart. And all I'm saying is those worlds are being merged. And in most cases, it's a lot more carnivorous than it is now.

It's a lot of partnerships. You see American Express standing side by side with Coinbase. You see J.P. Morgan Chase. You see ICE. You see all of these massive, massive traditional finance companies, traditional customer acquisition companies on the finance side, partnering with people I've never even heard of before. There's acquisitions that we've talked about on this show

that are to the tune of like $1.7 billion, you know, for a company I've never even heard of. And so that's my whole point is, is that I think that we're on the verge of something that's going to give, you know, the old adage of build it and they will come. The 24-7, 365 markets are going to happen. They're going to happen quicker than we think they're going to happen.

They're going to integrate faster across all nodes of the markets that than we can possibly imagine. And what's going to be a byproduct of that? Well, there's some intended consequences. which is more customers doing more activity online as it pertains to trading. I think that's the goal of every market maker and every exchange is to acquire more traders, right? But I think that there will be a lot of unintended consequences to that endeavor as well. And I think that most of those unintended consequences are going to result in large M&A deals.

There's going to be pieces of the puzzle that are going to be needed to be filled. And by God, it's going to drive the need and the price of that need way up. And there's going to be these niche little crypto companies out there, to your point, like hyperliquid, that have built something incredibly disruptive. I would give you 100%, like as disruptive as any technology I've seen in the space. But, you know, not more disruptive than Coinbase, not more disruptive than Bitcoin. And all, you know, there's just bigger, there's bigger liquidity. pools than what we're, you know, talking about that are going to want to pour liquidity into these

markets. And what better way to do it than to partner with the company right before you turn on the spigot and douse them with liquidity. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's how the big multipliers are made, especially when you're having to do the big multipliers at, you know, $100 million plus placements. I think we agree on is what I was trying to echo your sentiment. I wonder, obviously, I think the most important thing I got out of that conversation is that hyperliquid actually accrues value to the token, which is really important. And Pump, and Pump does as well. Yeah. And mechanically, I'm curious if institutions or what kind of institutions actually from a fiduciary or risk managed perspective can actually utilize these platforms right now.

or if, you know, for any of them to actually use somebody. The general role of thumb with a lot of this stuff is if you're a prop trading firm, you can do it. I mean, they're always the first adopters on a lot of this stuff, right? I mean, a lot of people don't know this, but the founders of Hudson River trading have been funding Bitcoin developers for the last 10 years or something out of their own pocket, right? HR team, super early to crypto. But so are all the market makers. I mean, the proprietary trading firms, you know, your your tower researches, your jumps, your Susquehontas, your Jane Street. You know, the more it's your own capital, the more flexibility you have around what you can do and what you can touch. So they're always going to be the earliest adopters to stuff.

But there are a lot of traditional hedge funds where there are a few traditional hedge funds that are touching some of this stuff. But it's, it's very different when it's your own versus its external LP money. Amen. Yeah. And I think based upon what I hear and what I, conversations I'm in, it's a lot of foreign entities. It's, it's any, basically anybody that's connected to Binance in any way from a market's perspective, those, those would be the people.

I mean, look at Binance and OKX and the markets they serve. It's not surprising that there's a lot of liquidity and a lot of these products that aren't accessible and really aren't, you know, prevalent in the U.S. The one thing to note on Binance to a bunch of exchanges, I mean, a huge percentage of their top 10 market makers are U.S. firms. They're just using offshore entities to trade, but they're U.S. proprietary trading firms. Can I ask you guys the most important question since I haven't been able to ask any of the review?

What do you think of World Liberty Financial? Who cares? Who cares? In the line of, I think it fits Trump's portfolio products very well, from, you know, Trump vodka to Trump water to, you know, Trump stakes to World Liberty Financial. Just another one. It blows my mind. Andrew say, who cares?

I know that it's easy to be kind of dismissive of it. Justin Sun seems to care. Who cares? Who cares again? Who cares about Justin's son? Who cares? I wonder, well, I mean, it's interesting timing with the Clarity Act trying to be pushed. We're definitely giving more fun.

The Clarity Act was dead six months ago, guys. I mean, that's so obvious. That was so obvious then. It's so obvious now. What do we got? Like about 11 days? It needs to be passed in the next 11 days or else it's basically over because we go into the summer and the, you know, Congress goes away. Yeah, I mean, it's it's political theater.

You know, it's a talking point. It's interesting. Everybody gets to yell and scream at each other from one side or the other. Again, what matters right now in the crypto space are basically three things. Innovation, traditional finance, not only putting toes in the water, but jumping in, you know, head first. And then flows. Where are flows going? You know, to the commentary about L1s and L2s and who wins.

and utility and all that stuff. You know, I take a look at where are we going to be in two to three years when it comes to where money is actually going. And where money will continue to go is Bitcoin and Ethereum via the ETFs in those flows. And then at some point, there is going to be an aggregate ETF that becomes the third largest ETF in the space. That is going to say 90% of the money that matters in this space is going to come from, the Black Rocks, the Morgan Stanley's, and the J.P. Morgan's of the world. That's just the reality.

That's how it ends up working out again and again and again. In the same way that there were winners and losers in 1999 to 2004, that's kind of the space that we're in with crypto. There will be winners or losers. Some of them we don't even know about yet, and they'll grow up in the next two years. But there's going to be an aggregate that wins. And four to five years from now, the space will look very, very different. But there will be winners. How do we make money? I think 90% of people that are going to put meaningful capital into this space are the kind of folks that invest in ETFs. And the way that they're going to win is they're going to put a meaningful amount of allocation into a Bitwise fund that has the top 10 of blah, blah, blah into that ETF.

And that's how they'll participate. It's very, very, if not impossible, to be able to find winners in crypto. Even if you're us on this show, it's nearly impossible, given the schizophrenic version of this industry. So the way that people that have lots and lots of money have figured out how to do that, okay, give me the ETF that's got everything in it. I'll put 1% of my portfolio in there. And let's talk about it in three years. I think there's two things to comment on that. The first thing is that. that in agreeing with you is that cryptocurrency are generally pre-seed and seed startups that are trading as public equities, right? And if you think about the amount of pre-seed and seed

startups that are going to succeed, right? It's a fraction of a fraction. When you're when you're an investor that invests in seed companies, right? You basically have to only invest in things that are, you know, you think have the chance of being 100 X is because you have the expectation that 90 plus percent of them are going to go to zero and the only way that you can return money to your investors is if some of these things become big successes. And I think you have to view tokens in that way once you start going down the risk curve. And it also depends on what your investment time horizon is. But I do think the fact that the market is starting to price in and value revenue and real financial metrics is also going to make picking winners than losers easier in

crypto. The one thing to note, though, is obviously, you know, it was brought up earlier, which is disruption, right? In crypto, it's very easy to copy and paste, you know, what somebody else has built. And so the ability for some of these protocols to be disrupted is higher and their ability to build moats is lower. So that is something to keep in mind. But I do think that as the market matures, understanding who's going to win or lose is going to be easier on the point of passive products. I will caveat one thing. I agree with you broadly that I think people will come into crypto via passive products. But I think the reason why passive products has, have to exist and have to be limited is purely a matter of liquidity.

Like if you're BlackRock, you just can't launch a product for anything outside of the top five by market cap because any, any about of buying activity from your customers is going to just quadruple the price of the thing and you're never immediately and you're never going to be able to get out of it. I mean, it's just, it's purely just a liquidity issue. I agree. Depth of liquidity is what they manage more than anything. What if they're in debt?

Sorry, right. I mean, I agree with you. It depends on how the index works. So if it's a market cap weighted index, yes, for sure, because then it's like, okay, then it's a 1% position. But if you're trying to like equal weight an index or do a single asset product, there's just no way. So Matt Hogan was on last week and he said the buck basically stops at hyperliquid, right?

Isn't that what he said? It said like this will be the last single or feasible, I guess, single asset, ETF will issue in crypto. Everything else is going to start. have to look differently. He basically agreed with you, Josh. Like, we've run out of liquidity for these single things. I know there's like, but also it's like, is it going to be worth your time and launch your product that's going to get $5 million in buying activity? Like the great thing is once you have an ETF approved, you can pretty much just copy, paste the template and refile

with the SEC with the new asset. But at some point, it's just not worth the juices and worth the squeeze, you know, to be listing, you know, insert random token that's 37 by market cap apologies to whoever is 37 at this current second. I have no idea. I'm not looking at it. But, you know, by the way, is it, is it lost on anybody that maybe we should look up pumped up fun volumes and hundreds of millions from 2022 and then potentially correlate that to what hyperliquid is doing now? I don't know the hyper liquid numbers. I know that when I was paying attention to pumped up fund, the biggest number I ever heard was that did 17 billion and 24 hours What always struck me was the one month last April when it was like eight million

total. Well, I think the great thing is that you don't need to look at volumes and you can look at revenue and revenue going to buybacks. And I mean, that's the most important metric here and how sustainable that revenue. I don't know. Revenue is, is, I don't, I would, I would, I would say. 90, 90. If you have a high revenue company with a low customer count,

you need customer count. And if you have a low revenue company with high customer count, you need revenue. But the same thing goes on volume. You could have one customer being all your volume. So that would be not a good market. That would be a very- But they have a lot of-

I mean, they don't have a single customer. I mean, we can Google it. I'm sure- My point is that it's one, folks have made the case and it's worth at least exploring that, you know, the quote unquote crypto pie from a retail standpoint, has not grown in any meaningful way over the past three or so years other than the ETFs. So, you know, active daily trading associated with whoever has just moved from spots.

Washington machine, I agree. Like hyper liquid traders that when you see that like a few weeks ago it was silver and gold were the most traded assets on hyperliquid and then the last week it was oil or whatever, you know, last weekend. And usually it's the weekend numbers when they pump. You know that's just a bunch of old meme coin. and all coin traders that now found something with more volatility to trade. It's not like oil traders have come to hyperliquid to trade.

So it's hyperliquid over the last 24 hours. And obviously you could take some of this with a grain of salt because you don't know if an active user is actually a person, right? Somebody can have multiple wallets, but there's 66,000 active users. That's a lot. To my point. The bigger players, if they're trading against, apply, those tokenized efforts are going to be used, is my point, especially as a hedging

mechanism against the commodities harder to move in and out of, the tokenized commodities easier to move in and out of, where do you think the hedging is going to take place when volatility hits the market on the tokenized side of things? And it's just by nature. That's law of nature. People will go there because it will save them a lot of money. and it will give them better hedging tools. And guess what?

Those are the biggest players in that market. Oil market, the biggest players are the biggest producers, I can promise you. Yeah, it's people hedging and taking positions against their own stock and such. Yeah, they'll trade a tanker 15 times before it gets across the ocean. I never really looked at the hyperliquid chart. It's very impressive. It's unbelievable. They've crushed it.

But again, it's just like the connectivity of markets, real-world markets. They're just proving what we already know and what everyone's really moving into, which is just these new products that allow people to. But from 50,000 feet, guys, you know, hyperliquid is still an exchange business. And if you step back 40 years, exchange businesses have not grown to be wildly successful and profitable just as an exchange. This is why Coinbase is doing 17 other things that have nothing to do with the dollars in the middle of my sentence. Can I finish please? Thank you. So they're doing a bunch of other things that have nothing to do with the dollars and cents associated with the

movement of capital. It's a bunch of other things that they're doing that accrues value to what it is. that is Coinbase. Same thing with any other financial services company. Morgan Stanley is not just making a buck on the movement of commission dollars from one piece of equity to another. They're doing a bunch of different things to make that particular entity valuable. Yeah. Go ahead. I have a comment after you. I look and I don't disagree with you. I know Coinbase now has nine different revenue lines to do 100 million in revenue, which was something that they highlighted in their last quarterly, you know, financial or their quarterly call. But Hyperliquid is doing 700 million in annualized profit.

Like just take a step back to appreciate how fucking ridiculous that is with 11 people. Oh, it is. It's unreal. But I would say that everything that an exchange does to make money pales in comparison to when they take positions in IPOs. in ICOs. Like if you look at every major exchange that's made a tremendous amount of money, it's because they've held the liquidity that they needed through parabolic rises in price. Uphold would be an example of that. Like every one of them is an example of that.

And if you go to the traditional side of things, they made their money the same way. They promoted IPOs. They held large positions in the IPOs. They lent lots of money on, you know, with collateral being shares that they can repossess. They made their bet on companies, and then they made their companies very successful. That's exactly how the crypto market has been operating, and it'll never change. And so, but guess what? You can live, you can, you can die on that sword, right, pretty easily. If you look at also exchanges that go out of business in catastrophic balls of fire,

it's typically because they were over leveraged in those holdings. and they couldn't manage them as they grew. So, you know, access to investment tools, access to early, you know, new innovation is where the real money is made. If you talk to anyone that's made any money in Silicon Valley, why do they live in Silicon Valley? Because they literally are like vultures. They fly around all the innovation and they just wait until they smell money.

And they go, hey, here's some money. Can we have some equity and they wait? Because they bought Rave Dow, which is a $0.25 to $14 this week, and nobody knows what it is or why. Okay. There's either manipulation involved or a lot of VZ money involved. One of those two things is probably driving it. They're the reason for all of this. Well, Josh, I appreciate your time.

man, we're going to let you run. Always great to have you. And guys give Josh a fall. Oh, see, I didn't have the little namey things on today. There you go. Okay, thanks. Apparently, I can show headlines. I don't know what that means.

What did that do? I don't know what that did. Oh, let me show us had headlines. It gave us little namey things. You should be able to rotate people's name. You should just go around in a circle. It says headline optional. Founder of Creativity, Inc.

That's what it suggested for me. All right. Thanks, my Ann Tellman. All right. All right. Oh, our heads got big. Do you want to, what do you want your headline to be? I'm going to be founder of creativity.

A bit more commentary about hyperliquid. We've seen this story before. It's, you know, it's neat and it's great. A lot of money being made by them. But, you know, we, it's almost as if there's a rotation in both liquidity and volumes about every two and a half to three years in this space, that's not coinbase and finance, right? Those two have meaningfully separated, okay? But then everybody is just kind of moving around.

Like, seriously, somebody go do a little study. I'm sure there's somebody in a comment somewhere. What was pump. dot fund doing two and a half years ago and what is hyperliquid doing now? My guess is probably pretty close, right? probably pretty close. And there's probably, you know, of those 11 people working at Hyperliquid, I'm going to assume 11 of them are pretty sharp, smart people.

They have to be talking about what do we do next? Like, how do we move on from being to trade on? What can we do beyond this? Because we can't do this for the next 10 years. You're just speaking to the fact that there's a demographic of people that are risky that latch on to that, that liquidity that you see. Yeah, Archipa. One thing before you just put in perspective, Hyper Liquid made 844 million bucks last year. Tether made 10 billion in profits. Yeah. Right. I mean, you know, there's just this, that is the technology is it's disruptive.

It has high potential for customer acquisition. And if you're on the bleeding edge, you almost buy definition to Andrew's point, catch the bleeding edge people. The bleeding edge people just go to the bleeding edge, whether it's tokenized oil or tokenized, whether it's meme coins, whether it's whatever it is, there's a percentage of people that are willing to gamble. And by the way, what was OpenC's volume in 2021? Oh, just off the charts. The charts. They're doing great. Pumped out fond in 2023 and now hyperliquid in 2025. So, again, and what was Coinbases from 2014 to 2017, right? But they figured it out, right?

And now they figured it out so much that Jamie Diamond. Jamie Diamond is screaming expletives at Brian Armstrong at a gathering in Davos, right? So, you know, that's the standard. Well, just to be fair, Jamie probably screams expletives at everybody. I found that some of the best CEOs are really good at screaming expletives. That's what I found. I mean, that's not personal experience. No, political experience.

When you're being assessed for a CEO position, that's one of the question. One of the things, you got to go through a round of screaming. My first job interview out of college was to be the assistant to like a huge music agent because I went to school with his daughter. His name was Johnny Podell. He had been the agent for like the Alman Brothers and like Tina Turner. And then he did crack for heroin for like 20 years and disappeared. Then he came back after heroin and did like the Backstreet Boys and stuff for Insync.

Either way, I went in for my first interview. And the person who had my job was in my interview, the job I was interviewing for. So he just sat, sat the dude there. And you remember those brick phones from like the 90s with like all. You took one of those and threw it across the room at the person. that his job I was. Like it was nothing. And then I showed up and I lost his job

and I got his job. I moved to New York City from Philadelphia and I showed up to work the first day and they're like, who are you? Yeah. I'm here to assist Johnny Podell. They were like, we gave that job to his apartment. You were like, you know, yeah, San Diego. Yeah.

They do the straightforward people to be very pleasant. Well, they do the SWAT analysis, you know, as a CEO, you lead. with my strength is I can scream ex-expletives very well I get away with weakness is you lead with I scream ex-blades so it's like a you know sword it can cut both ways you got to be careful with it yeah but this is I said this before as a as a as a mild joke but isn't this what hyperliquid should do just you know incorporate archpublic let's talk about I'm fascinated pomp said something that I just can't get off of which is AI is changing the world

at such a quick rate that, you know, there's kind of three stages to AI. We started with the Google 2.0 stage where it was like, let me know what I need to know about this. So it was user-based queries. The second iteration was, let me show you everything that I've got and you come up with the questions that need to be asked because you can see everything. That's the kind of the Sylvia CFO type model. The final is the execution model of that. And it's where you can take instructions, whether they're AI generated or whether they're human

generated, but they're your instructions. And you programmatically put those instructions to work. And you leave those instructions in place so that when the instructions meet the requirements, the market actually shows the volatility that you've prescribed. for example, or whatever the condition that you're looking for is met, then those instructions then get deployed and you're in a position to act. And so why is that important? Well, it's important because of what we just spent 35 minutes talking about. 24-7 markets exist, especially if you're in crypto, they've existed for a long time. And we all know the emotional damage that does to you.

we all know the time constraints that we all have to live our lives. And we know that being involved in the markets and being plugged in to the degree that you need to to be available and make decisions quickly is a very taxing endeavor. And so these tools that we've built at Archpublic are specifically geared to alleviate that trouble and to get your will represented in your trading strategies that you can build in your own toolbox and then deploy. those into the markets. And it's getting exceptionally exciting because the feedback that we've had specifically over the last year has just been overwhelming. And 22,000 customers, I think we're up to. And just the help that we're able to provide people that have needed these tools is a very

satisfying and gratifying endeavor. And so it's built a lot of excitement inside of our company. We're growing very quickly. And I think it's because, you know, right place, right time. we just have found ourselves in this execution lane of kind of of markets. And it's only going to get bigger. It's like every single asset that gets added to the tokenized list now is available to to be managed in and out of your portfolio on a 24-7 basis. So the days of, you know, where you hired and registered investment advisor and paid them 1% 2% per year, to have a meeting with you once every six months, that is very, very quickly dying. That I think is going to, you're going to see a blockbuster Netflix type of an event there. And the reason why is because the markets move too quick to rebalance every six months.

You're losing massive opportunity and you're not managing the volatility that you are now subject to whether you like it or not. every market is volatile and it's becoming more volatile, more trading, more hours of trading always brings that. And so you're just looking at something that's going to, I think, get to become mainstay and you're going to hear about it, whether from us or from someone else in the future. And so what we've done is we've made our product free. You can literally come and download it and get plugged in with our customer service division and they will literally walk you through how to use it, how you can set it up for yourself, how you can manage it.

It's completely inside your control. It's on your brokerage account. You can choose whichever one you currently are using or if you want to start a new relationship to use this, that's completely up to you. So no high pressure. There's no sale. You can sit there and use it for free for as long as we're around and, you know, no harm, no foul. So we really want you to have the light bulb moment as much as anything that these tools are

here. And they're very, very powerful if used correctly. And what they're going to, you know, really do for you is provide you if you're, for example, wanting to increase your allocation in Bitcoin or Salonah or Ethereum or any of the other ones or, you know, you're looking at when do I buy, how much do I buy, all those things, well, you know, you can set the best dollar cost average schedule up in the world. And if I said to you, I want to put a million dollars into this asset, any prudent person would say, well, don't buy it all in one chunk, you know, okay, well, do I buy it 10 chunks of 100 grand, 20 chunks of 50 grand, you know, so on and so forth? Or do I wait for the market to present dips where the price of the asset is on sale? And I do it very, very,

prudently with very small amounts of capital across that cost curve. Well, if you play that out, that's going to give you an exceptionally healthy cost curve. It's going to expose you to the entire volatility curve, but it's never going to be putting more eggs in more baskets based upon the emotion that arises through that volatility. So you have a management tool that allows you to harvest volatility in a way that if you're a manual trader, you've never, have never experienced before. So we'd love for you to experience it with us. And we, you know, just reach out to us at archipublic.com. When's the next time we're all getting together?

We're planning it right now. It's, uh, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I think, I, I, know, you know, get together as well. No, Vegas this year for any of us. No. No. I feel like there's like a, a just wild hatred of the Bitcoin conference this year or something. I don't know. Well, I mean, it's, you know.

It's a case study on how to, you know, burn down brand, frankly. If only somebody had said something about this. If only. If only last year in Vegas, somebody had been credit. No, if the community could give anybody credit for making a call before anybody else did, your call about it ending badly and it being a serious bubble last year in Vegas was as good a call as I've ever seen. So, you know, kudos. I have a hard time criticizing it because it's near and dear to my heart.

You know, they've been a lot to the industry, you know, it's, but it has. It's one of the, it can't, it can't last forever just like anything. And don't know if it'll come back with, you know, a lot of glory. But I will tell you, it's probably a hard time to be at the Bitcoin conference, considering Nakamoto's price. You know, yeah, you know what's crazy is I saw that still like the main headliner for consensus, which I am going to actually, and a Bitcoin conference is still Eric Trump, I think. You gotta wonder like with all the world liberty financial stuff, does anyone have this

all to sit up on stage and be like, hey. Somebody somewhere will, but you can imagine though that he's ready for that question. Where are you on the website, Eric? you'd be ready for it i mean he wouldn't put himself out there in public if he's not you know or he's just an unique fool um we'll find out here in the next couple i think they're very passionate about bitcoin i think that you know they they really have um you know i will say it's some of the most passionate people about bitcoin were people that got aggressively debanked and i don't know how true all that narrative is but i know it is a narrative out

there that, you know, they were debanked. But I, you know, I assume the best and, you know, walk forward and move forward. It's one of those things where if people find enjoyment going to the conference this year, great. Have fun. I hope they all go. I just find funny that they aggressively debanked Justin Sun. It is something of an interesting narrative that Justin Son is now seen as a paragon of truth here in the crypto space. So everything

comes full circle, I guess. Simulation is yeah. It's something. To show you how you know, ADD we all are and how much we listen to them news and how it's just

a con like the clips are getting out of control. In fact, I'm going to predict that the nightly news is going to make a comeback, but it's going to be, it's going to look and smell very different than the original nightly news. But, you know, it's people, people, the clipping of the, the short form content is getting out of control, because you don't get any of the story. You just get the little nugget that provides enough controversy to get the spark started.

And then the flame is lit on both sides and everybody's arguing about a clip that was taken totally out of context that has no relevance to the actual argument that they're having. It's a mess. To clip you. I'll write that. I tell you that certain networks that I might be launching shows on in six days are completely changing direction as to the kind of content and news they will be presented. Well, it wouldn't surprise me. I think I know a little bit about what you're referring to,

and they were on the bleeding edge of one, you know, technological revolution, and they're looking for another. More power to them. It's a much, boy, it's a needed space to go into. I think there's a guys in suits on TV is a dying breed. I can tell you that. I thought I was going to get, like, all dressed up and do the news and stuff, and they were like, we just wanted to be you.

We did all the, like, lower thirds and stuff. We had it already, and they're like, we wanted to look like your show. All our shows are going to look like your show. That's the direction of things are going. I think it's going that direction, and I'll tell you another thing I think it's due. And I think that if you look at Seinfeld as kind of one of the things that people said about it that I did not know was it was the most out-of-studio-filmed TV show of any TV show that ever existed. That makes sense.

I never thought about that, but they're in the streets. They were in the streets. They were in the diner. They were everywhere. Like think about all the out-of-studio moments. And I think that the journalism where people are going to be literally going out and taking people into a new world, you know, if you look at some of the bigger rises of YouTubers that are doing very, you know, ambush type journalism and these, you know, gang related journalism where they're, yeah, yeah, I mean, they're growing in popularity because people want the truth. They want the candid look. They want to get into the circles. And, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be awesome. I like that. Very entertaining.

Yeah. And informative at the same hour. Do you think it's possible to not reference Seinfeld? It has an application to every event in life. I think they did that on purpose. I mean, listen, I was watching Seinfeld last night. And it was just, I watched like three episodes. And I have no idea what season it was.

But it was like three episodes of some of the most epic moments of Seinfeld ever. Right. It was Jiffy Park. It was, I'm not a pimp. It was, you know, George's fiancee has a doll that looks like his mom and his dad head off. I mean, he's just, just epic, epic stuff. Greatest show of all time.

Oh, for sure. All right, guys, I think we did it. Oh, once again, I'm going to show the thing again. Yeah. Go sign up. You guys in the comments are talking about how much you like it, how great it is. That's all I've ever heard. and we've been talking about this now for years.

And I've never had someone be like, you know what? I hated all that big, what I bought. Yeah, well, that kind of is the premise. Nobody really regrets that. They regret, man, I should have, I should have been more prudent about my allocation and really managed it, you know, given the opportunity that's at hand

and the asymmetric opportunity at hand, the risk reward ratio that we stand to get, you know, it may only deserve three to five percent of your, your financial allocation, but it deserves, you know, 25% of your educational, because it'll lead you into kind of the new ways of finance, in my opinion. There's a lot of Bitcoin standards. We're about to start testing some new Algo's on a new portfolio on OKX as well. So please hold for that. Yeah, there's some exciting stuff that's happening that we're innovating on. We've got an app that's, we're working on finishing that we're going to launch. All of these markets that are integrating

different product just there's just a lot of fun stuff that we've got in front of us so yeah come come talk to us we'd love to get to know you check out the site ardubublic.com you might get to talk to tilman or hall uh tillman or Andrew that'll be really excited i almost said tillman or holloway either either in the sweater or the one out of the sweater i don't know which one you're going to get well there is a jekyllyn hide there is a jekyllyn hide kind of going on with kilman so you know tillman or hall we know we know we just talked about that he yells at you off straight and cusses and both things. No, that's all

myth. That's all just a myth. Listen, I'm just telling you guys that this is the truth. If you played Division I football and you were decent at any level, I'm not saying I was good, but just I did get

voted captain of the team. So I was a leader. You're yelling and cussing and everybody. You know, that's how you get everybody going, okay? So, you know, it's a sign of endearment. In fact, What's a special session for me and you? Right here, buddy. Not so much here or here.

Right here. That's what's here. All right. Well, we're going to exit before we do anything stupid. We nailed it right to the minute. I got to get good now at, by the way, like my timing, it's horrible. Like stopping things at an exact time. We didn't want to tell you.

All right, guys. It's going to be 10.01. I'm going to blow it. All right. Everybody take out Archbile Week. See you guys later.