The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin Thrives In Chaos As Crypto & DeFi Crumbles In Real Time!

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

Bitcoin continues to outperform through chaos—war, bank runs, and market stress—while institutions like Charles Schwab and Strategy double down with major allocations and billions in new BTC buys. At the same time, a massive exploit tied to Kelp DAO has triggered panic across DeFi, with over $9 billion pulled from Aave and fresh concerns about systemic risk as hacks continue to mount. So is Bitcoin proving it’s the only thing that thrives in crisis while the rest of crypto struggles—or is this just another shakeout before the next big move? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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CBC News. thrives in chaos. If you take a look, it outperforms in almost every instance of global uncertainty. But at the moment, we also have a bit of a crisis in Defi and on the crypto side, leading many to believe that maybe Bitcoin is just the safer option at the moment. I have a feeling that not all of my guests will necessarily agree with that. Today, we've got Andrew and Tillman, of course, but we've got Sid Powell here from Maple, one of my favorites to join and help us break down everything that's happening in Defi and the broader crypto. market. Let's go. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the show. I hope you're all having a

wonderful Tuesday. Happy Kevin Warsh confirmation hearing day to those who celebrate. I know that you'll all be watching very closely as if it was the Super Bowl like the rest of us. But I think right now, the main focus has been on obviously Bitcoin price here, kind of at a key area of resistance or support depending on how you look at it. And of course, everything happening in Deepi. We've got Sid, Andrew and Tillman here to unpack it all. Man, like, we are the kings of the own goal. Like, you know, right when things always seem to be going good for us and we're kind of humming along, you got Charles Schwab, I don't know, I should bring it up. Did you guys see the Charles Schwab educational Bitcoin video with the guy with like the hair

helmet? Really good. I'll find that. But obviously, at the same time that that happens, we have to be on the front page of Bloomberg for hacks. Crypto hack sparks 9 billion outflows from top defy lenders. So this was yesterday years old. And I believe that number is much bigger now. Sid, is that correct? I read as high as 12 or 13 billion capital flight as a result of the Kelpdow hack.

And then obviously the fallout across Ave and other lenders. Yeah, I think that's right. Like we've seen pretty consistent outflows since the Kelpdow hack occurred. And, you know, a lot of people are kind of sitting at, out until they, you know, until, until, one, some of the lending markets need to unfreeze. They're at 100% utilization. And two, I think people are also looking for direction as to, to where the losses or bad debts are going to be socialized. Would it, you know, would it help to kind of give a little bit of a, give a little bit of a recap on like sort of what

happened over the weekend? Sure. Yeah. That would be great because I said this on my, on my show on Yahoo yesterday. Like, my first reaction was $290 million. dollars hacked from kelp Dow what the fuck is kelp Dow how is there 300 million dollars to be stolen from something called kelp Dow i mean what are we doing here but yeah go ahead well takes me takes me back to the food coin days of uh jams yeah uh so what happened was over the weekend uh so kelpdao is a is a staking protocol so you put in if it gets steak you get uh an lst or a or a little with staking token back that earns a yield. But what happened over the weekend was that Kelpdow's bridge was compromised.

So there was an exploit there that enabled a hacker to mint, call it roughly an extra 20% of RSEth. So in effect, they were able to create more than the more LSTs in the backing of that Kelpdow had. And then what the hacker proceeded to do was to put that into AVE and other defy lending protocols. So they could borrow Weaf and then take that and rinse it through tornado cache to try and off rent. So what it triggered, the key reason this triggered such contagion was that obviously AVEA, Euler, these other lending protocols are really big and quite spread across Defi. And so the issue that arose is the concept of bad debts. You have the hacker has deposited collateral that is now worth, you know, at least 20% less than what its face value was and then proceeded to borrow ETH against it. And, you know, they obviously have no intent of repaying that and the collateral has a jump to default risk.

So normally what would happen is that as the collateral value edges down on a defy protocol, you have a. liquidations but here it's just gone from a hundred cents on the dollar to 80 cents on the dollar effectively and and and so that's kind of the state of play at the moment the hack was to the tune of a bit under 300 million okay so it says so many questions but one is how do you get to 100% utilization shouldn't the start smart contract prevent that you know like didn't there be a loan to value in the liquidity pool or something where it's like okay where it's 70% nobody's going to be able to withdraw if we go any higher. I know that obviously, AVE, none of these were hacked and it's really just

a story of debt getting spread around the system, but it also doesn't seem like you should be able to just yolo out every dollar in the pool and take it and go cash it out. Yeah, well, it does raise it does raise a question around that. I mean, what happened was that as people sensed there was potentially bad debt in the protocol, they've then gone and borrowed a lot of stable coins to effectively get their, net exposure on the protocol down. So if I've deposited a bunch of collateral and borrowed, let's say I deposit $200 million worth of collateral and borrow $100 million, my net exposure was $100 million. But if I put $200 million on and borrow $190, now my net exposure is only

$10 million. So what a lot of people did was to risk mitigate, they go and borrow any asset they can. But basically they're just saying, I'll take the liquidation. I lose 5%, but at least I got my money out in stable coins, which are actually worth something. Yes, effectively. Yeah. I'll take that here. And then anyone who any, but the other, so that's one side of the equation, but then the other side is anyone who had stable coins deposited on there,

as soon as there was any spare liquidity, they've pulled it all. So effectively that that yanks you towards 100% utilization from both the borrower side and the lender side. And the most acute stress that has been seen is on the L2 instances of the protocol. So Mantle, Lanier, that's where the question lies. So there's currently two proposals up. So one would be that there's a uniform haircut of RSEF across all, you know, effectively all instances of Arveh. And this is something like 20% haircut on the asset if you apply it evenly. And then the other one is that because the reasoning is that because the exploit was caused by a bridge,

bridge, so, you know, the layer zero bridge. Because it was caused by a bridge, you would only haircut the L2 if, in which case you're going to see a more severe write down on some of these L2 instances of the protocol. So I think that the difference is about 100 nil in bad debt between Proposal 1 and Proposal 2. And you wonder why people use ETFs. Call me crazy here because I didn't understand half of that. I've been in the industry for forever. I'm like, my comment. I was like, I've been here 10 years, never heard of half this stuff.

I at least superficially understand how it works. But it's what I think what strikes me and tell me and Andrew, I do want your takes on this. Like what strikes me is that we've found kind of like a new bank run contagion here that wasn't there before, right? We've had all these hacks in the past where you see 300 million, 500 million. But this time, the hacker didn't just hack and cash out.

They hacked and then went and took the money out, in a lending pool and like spread it around, you know, 20 protocols and put the whole thing in question. It's like, and then everybody, as he said, the bank run isn't, go get my assets out. It's take a loan against my toxic assets as fast as you would be possible. Okay. So there's just some problems there. I mean, Andrew, I think your take is a good one. You know, dude, I never even heard of this. I get why most people are. Well, it's a, it's a, it's almost a commercial that people, that are ETF-centric can somewhat point to and say, listen, you can play around with all this stuff,

you know, or you can do this ETF and this ETF. You've got exposure, right, to the industry and to the asset class, but you don't have to worry about some strange hacking thing and going into pools and then, you know, and then it's the meme and it's gone, right? So you don't have to worry about all those risks. You've got an ETF and your SIPC, you know, insured account here at Morgan Stanley. Right. I mean, we dislike the fact that that's a reality, you know, cypherpunk world.

We wish that that wasn't sort of the truth now, but it is. And there are positives to it. There are some negatives to it. But the reality is the lion's share of capital that will be new capital coming to this industry is going to default there. Now, two to three, four years from now, is there going to be additional security and less risk associated with DFI? Sure, right? They will learn and grow from this and make it more investable by folks that have a campaign. ounce at Morgan Stanley? Will there be packaged products associated with DFI, which will move some of

this risk? Of course there is. I mean, heck, Morgan Stanley's out there. Now they won't, Black Rock wouldn't shut up about crypto and hasn't for a year and a half. Now Morgan Stanley won't shut up about it. Effectively, they're coming out and saying tokenization slash crypto is the future of Morgan Stanley. That's what they said either earlier this week or late last week. So, you know, hack or no hack, we're not going backwards on this stuff. It's just people, these are reasons why people dip toes in versus, let me jump in waist deep. Well, one's the bleeding edge and one's kind of the, let me. I think, here, go ahead.

Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I think people accept a higher risk posture when they use this stuff. It's worth noting, you know, we're not talking like 100% right down here across all these protocols. It's a haircut. But we saw our boss six months private credit, which was the hot new thing in Tradfai, has taken a bunch of haircuts from some of the leading $1 trillion-plus asset managers. So I think you're in danger when you start to close your eyes and think that there's no risk in any of this stuff. And I would say it points to, you know, you should always be kind of diversified across your positions. And, you know, and recognize that risk is effectively that more things can happen than will happen.

and there's always kind of an element of up risk. I think people said, well, since the code will automatically liquidate positions, there is no real credit risk on some of these platforms, but you can see that they obviously just didn't price in the jump to default risk on these assets. Well, I mean, it's a hack, and I do think that there's a culling of the herd that's going to take place, especially, like you said, with layer ones and layer two specifically. I think that you're going to see, you know, a lot of,

of this going forward, especially with what we've seen in AI and, you know, dare I say quantum. But my point really is that it's a good problem to have. It means we're driving the car beyond its capabilities in an effort to get a faster track time. I mean, defy is here to stay. It's going to be the backbone of pretty much all of the financial markets, if you fast forward, you know, far enough. The question becomes is, you know, in our current financial system, there are checks and balances that keep these types of things from going on. One of them being that instant settlement is very rare to find, very rare. And that lag time or that settlement time in the transaction allows people to put the brakes on these systematic runs. And, you know,

we may see there's another iteration that blockchain's brought to us, especially defy, is now cross-market collateralization. And so if you have instant settlement and cross-market collateralization instantly, you can see why there's a lot of dominoes that can be set up very quickly that can all fall in unison. We won't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there'll be multiple iterations of this type of governance, whereby which, you know, you do have. safety gates and you do have essentially market circuit breakers if you will whereby which you know there's a lag time maybe pulling liquidity off protocol or lending against it or borrowing against it or some sort of a settlement period and so I

just think this is a maturing of the markets like we don't know yeah what the unintended consequences are when we open up these borderless protocol this fully integrated instantly settled markets and you know, we drove the car a little bit too fast. So why? Yeah. Before we move on from this topic, Sid, yeah, I mean, Maple obviously is you're deep in defy, right? So I guess directly can ask you, like, how did this affect you? How do you risk manage around this, you know, on the front line while this is happening over a weekend? Yeah, it's a good question. So we got alerts. We had alerts coming through from Saturday

evening when it kind of kicked off. So for us, We provide liquidity in some of these protocols. So we instantly kind of pulled all of that liquidity. Then for us, the exposure was more indirect. We didn't have any loans against RSE. We had some positions on Mantel Avae. And so we were able to work with some of the funds that have been doing looping to help them

underwine their positions as we unwound out. So effectively by, you know, call it early afternoon, someday we were fully out of any indirect exposures here as well. And then we proceeded to process over $800 million in redemptions over the course of the last, what are we now, 72 hours. So I think the protocol functioned fine on our end. I think it highlights the concentration, like the concentration limits and how teams should be managing the overall sizing of exposures because you never want one of

these to kind of take down an entire protocol or platform. And for us, what it's prompted us to do is we now have said we have no defy exposures. So Maple's core business has been lending to institutions against Bitcoin, EF, large cap, collateralized loans. And so we think the market for that is now coming back as a response to this. And so we're concentrating our allocations there and to liquid assets like T-bills. So for us, we're saying the risk reward of defy doesn't make sense at the moment. So we're just going to concentrate on institutional collateralized loans and T-bills where we have idle collateral. And I think it's worth noting, you know, over the last few weeks, we've been getting a lot of comments from some of the funds who were borrowing who were saying, well, the rates in defy were so cheap.

Why would we borrow OTC from parties like Maple? But you can see now within the space of a few days, the rates have adjusted upwards to, you know, to 15%. So I think you're going to see downstream impacts on the borrowing market here. But I expect there will be much more borrowing demand over the next few weeks. Okay. The most interesting part I think of this whole thing is now, in case you're wondering, you can bet on when the next $100 crypto. I think that's one.

I'd be taking the bet on the affirmative there. Yes. That's interesting. It does seem like a lot of people have taken the wait and see. approach with defy after all these years now as a result of this one just because the way it went down i think it's um it also raises the point of like these AI tools are we going to now see a hack every every month or so in defy like if you put you know if you take this tool we can put in the hands of very capable hackers uh you know how frequently is this stuff going to occur yeah i was i talked to bill

barheight yesterday you know from from uh abra obviously and we both had the same conclusion which is why are we talking about quantum when anthropic has mid-boats already that can hack them. You know, like, can find stacked vulnerabilities and apparently hack any system in the world. Like, I think we have bigger fish to fry right now than the quantum threat. So I agree with that. I do want to, speaking of threats, there's a really interesting chart here that I wanted to bring up as we kind of pivot here. I know Andrew and tell me you'll find interesting.

Bitcoin outperforms in every crisis. So we got U.S. Iran escalation all the way up to the Iran conflict now, and you just have Bitcoin outperforming almost every single market, every single time. We've seen it again now since we've had the Iran War and even things like gold that are supposed to be the risk-off hedges have underperformed. I think markets are extremely confusing, but why doesn't this narrative catch on, I guess? Why don't you hear people screaming from the rooftops that you should buy Bitcoin when we're in a, you know, risk off, I guess hard to say risk-off, but when we have global conflict?

Because smart money didn't broadcast what they're doing. number one, you know, if you're trying to accumulate a large position, which I would go as far as to say that most of the people buying right now have a lot of dry powder. They're mostly institutional or high net worth, super high net worth individuals. And they see the potential to get back to all time high as a doubling of their money. That's a very hard bet to pass up, especially if you have dry powder and you're looking for a return. Even if you say, listen, my odds of it going down are the same, there's still a place in a large portfolio for that type of instrument. And so I think it's, I think it is being talked about in the right circles. I mean, we went to the Bitcoin

Investor Week up at New York and they were all talking about it. And they were talking about how resilient it was as is as an asset. But I think that the collateral, uh, people, piece of Bitcoin is yet to shine. And I think it ties hand in hand with what we talked about with Defi is like, how do you collateralize loans in a scalable way that's managed by software? And there has to be gates and there has to be Oracle systems that are governing bodies that have an incentive that have money on the line for making bad decisions. And we're getting there. But Bitcoin, if you talk about the risk of the network, it's, in my opinion, all but over. I mean, there was two primary goals of the Bitcoin network.

Number one, and its primary goal was to fairly and equitably distribute the currency based upon who worked for it or who bought it. That was the primary goal. Secondary goal is to get Bitcoin from point A to point B. We can get Bitcoin from point A to point B with lots of different ways. we don't need the first. We've lost more than we have left to mine. And so I think Bitcoin is going to come out not only looking like an incredible asset to hold through crisis, like you said,

but also something that is the sterling collateral that is instantly repossessable, instantly taxable in the event that someone misses their payment, for example. You could pull liquidity out of a Bitcoin treasury. type of that application. But I do think fast forward three or four years from now, you're going to see all the people that are quietly buying right now come up to the med, and say, look at what we were able to do over the last three or four years. Well, there's been a, you know, there was a phrase that hasn't been used in a long time because effectively, let's just call it risk assets have just gone straight up for more than a decade, basically. So flight to quality, you know,

was something that you heard on Wall Street for decades. Whenever there was a downturn, a recession, a crisis of some sort, flight to quality was moved into treasury type of assets, cash assets. So that was a term that was often used. Bitcoin is proving to be a very, very meaningful and growing flight to quality asset for all the reasons that Tillman just talked about.

Over time, that narrative, will grow. That narrative will grow because that narrative will begin to take hold when Bitcoin moves from a seen as a risk type of asset inside of large institutions like the Morgan Stanley's of the world. And then the worm turns just a little bit and it's also a flight to quality type of asset because at some point the data points that you just brought up that you can't ignore them anymore. and we'll get there. We'll get there. But I think the flight to quality idea, the flight to quality reality,

as it, you know, per your data, is a real thing. And so we'll see it more and more. And then we'll see a narrative build around it. And then we'll see products get built around that particular narrative. We have only scratched the surface of product building around Bitcoin and everything that can be attached to it or adjacent to it in the institutional world. Three years from now, God only knows what we'll be talking about associated with Bitcoin. It will be so big.

We're going to be talking about this guy. I found him. Yes. I guess I got to go that way because I'm mirrored. I mean, first of all, I'm sure I'll talk about this later. But this is Charles Schwab's guy they chose for the video to break down the risk of adding Bitcoin to your portfolio? that that's the guy I mean I would buy insurance from this guy well that that's the reason why

they put that guy because he works like most 57 year old dads who have kids in college I mean they know exactly what they're doing here but I mean this is crazy right we have Charles Schwab make their announcement but now they're putting out videos to be fair they they're launching a Bitcoin and Eth products or trading but if you watch the video it's about the risk of it to your portfolio and not really the outside but okay they're starting starting somewhere, right? But there's nobody left here, Sid. Like, you know, we've got every major institution

on the planet now has a plan and has made an announcement in the past few weeks. I wonder from your business perspective, like, do you see this flight to safety quality to Bitcoin related products? Do you guys focus there? I mean, you know, how do you see it first, the rest of the market?

I think just from a scale perspective, you kind of have to focus on Bitcoin products. Like, unless you want to go right down the credit curve and look at, you know, lending against the, the lending against the 20th token, Bitcoin's the most scalable. It's the most, it's the deepest, most liquid market as a collateral asset. So to Tillman's point before, it's like, you know, this is like pristine collateral. I've now spoken with most of the commercial banks and investment banks on Wall Street and for our line of work and they are all looking at offering kind of in this order,

custody of the asset, trading of the asset, then the next request afterwards is can they do margining or lending against it? So to Tillman's point before, you have this idea of like portfolio margining. So their clients want to be able to post-Bitcoin trade equities, post-equities trade Bitcoin on leverage. They want to look at it in totality. And some of these banks don't have the appetite to front balance sheet to lend against Bitcoin themselves. So they would look at partners like us. So that's kind of where our conversations have trended. But I would say, you know, Charles Schwab is a good case in point. But all of these, effectively all of these brokers, all these banks, like commercial banks and investment banks, are now looking at how do they offer

this service to their clients so that they don't lose them to centralized crypto exchanges. That's how, you know, that's how innovation disrupts them as, you know, folks like Coinbase and Cracken start with a market that's unattractive and then they move up market. Soon they'll be doing equities and other stuff. Yeah, there was an old story in Houston a long time ago. Everybody's probably since gone so I can tell it. But somebody knew, everybody knew that this guy was going to go bust if oil prices hit $10 a barrel.

Landman, I saw that show. Yeah, so he moved, he tried to move his primary residence into a skyrise in downtown Houston and claim the castle doctrine over that building that he got to keep it in bankruptcy. all this stuff. But, you know, what, what it, what the, the part of the story that really, you know, impressed upon me was like, if I owe the bank a million dollars, it's, it's my problem. If I owe the bank of billion dollars, it's their problem. And so, you know, you get to a point where, you know, banks are not good at this, right? And, and you want to, if you want to take over a billion dollar real estate portfolio, you inherit a ton of liability.

a ton of maintenance, overhead taxes, management out the wazoo. Like, it's just a huge endeavor. And so no bank is positioned to take over collateral like that. And yet real estate is in the number one spot in terms of collateral in the United States in terms of lending. I really think you're in a great spot because I think a much better form of collateral than real estate is Bitcoin. Because you can, you can, you can repossess. We can liquidate someone in real time. Come on, man.

You can liquidate somebody in real time, but here's more importantly, I can repossess $10 billion of Bitcoin and I have no overhead management cost increase, no expertise needed. I just basically repossessed another. You can even say it's not even repossessed because you're probably holding it, right? I mean, you're holding the collateral already. Or I'm in some sort of dual signature account or some sort of managed, you know, liability. I think this is the future and it's not going to take very long for everyone to see that and that's why i personally believe once this this domino falls finally there may be a real

case for michael sailor and his uh bitcoin treasury company to be you know taken over by the u.s government as a as a means of national security like this is the future of banking is my point is you what other form of collateral would you ever want to lend against that has better rights say tach none or Michael well I mean he's the one he's flying real close to the slide how many bitcoin does he would win in black rock now which is a pretty like astounding signal

strategy now on some more bitcoin than well you know Tillman had a banger tweet yesterday and it had to do with sailor and didn't you didn't you yeah you had a banger tweet yesterday they make fun of me because my jokes don't land I'm the homeschool kid, I guess. I said, Satochi,

like he's the new Satoshi, but with Saylor in the front. No one got it, and everyone wrote me in the team was like, hey, that you misspelled Satoshi. And I was like, by the time the fourth person called me,

I was like, I probably should just delete the tweet, but I didn't. There it is. I added a hyphen for all the people that didn't. I'm going to like it. Okay, yeah. Thank you.

15% increase in, like, that one failed by public service for the day. Oh, man. But I know, said you got to run in a second. I just really wonder if we're entering this world of sort of have and have nots with the things that everybody understands and directionally all the institutional money flowing into those products and everything else remains a fringe experiment for the rest of us. That's why we've carved out the niche. I mean, we kind of tailored our lending products.

So you can borrow stable coins on chain. But if you're an institution, you can just put your native Bitcoin, not your wrapped Bitcoin. You don't have to put it in a smart contract. You can put in a qualified custodian. You can do a tri-party where you've got a signature. We've got a signature and the custodian has a signature. And then we do soft liquidations.

So you get 24 hours to post-margin. If you hit the stress liquidation level, we only liquidate you back to your initial margin LTV level. So we've kind of tailored our product to suit the institutions because I think we recognize that not all of them want to go forbore into depositing collateral and smart contracts and taking some of the risks that we've kind of seen were probably underpriced over the last six months. That makes a hell of.

I mean, there's some irony in it. I think that at the end of the day, you know, Bitcoin was created the outside the system. But the only way that it's working for large institutions is that there's a centralized system that make sure that it's risk managed properly. I think that that's just future, whether we like it or not. Well, you always have the option to self-custody, but it's just, you know, for institutions, maybe you don't want, you know,

one analyst on your treasury team to kind of have self-custody if you're of your Bitcoin. I mean, what does self-custody mean when you're an institution, right? I mean, it's pretty clear when you're an individual and then you fall in your head and you lose it anyways. Listen, not everyone's cut out to be a pilot. That's why we pay pilots to fly. us around in planes, not everybody's cut out to self-custody. And so, you know, you need to take it

as serious as you would getting your pilots license. You can crash your plane pretty easily if you don't know what you're doing. And the probability of you crashing is much higher in a private aircraft than it is, you know, general aviation. Commercial. Yeah, commercial. And because they're, they do it all day every day. My granddad used to say this all the time. He said, there's some things in life that's best left to the professionals. And there's just a lot of truth in that because liability is it increases. Let's say you have a five times more liability, but you achieve,

you know, 10% more benefits. Well, that's not a healthy risk reward swap. So I would like that to be the same case on self custody. It's good for an emergency fund. It's good for a small amount of money that you, want to play with in Defy, but it's not good for Treasury Bill, you know, deposit.

It's by interesting. I mean, said, but you've, you've effectively, as much as like you guys deeply understand defy and you use it, you've basically just effectively found a really good way that people understand where they can use their Bitcoin as collateral, right? It doesn't necessarily have to do it. Yeah. You're just collateralizing Bitcoin and saying this stuff is pristine collateral that you should be able to use and we will yeah we use I think we we we like the composability of defy we have great partnerships with the number of the large defy players we we allow

people to to deposit into our smart contracts take the you know take syrup USTC and syrup USCT and go and use them as collateral or elsewhere in DFI so I think we've we've tried to position ourselves at the intersection of defy and TradFi or CFI so you can you know you can use our LP tokens composably you can permissionlessly use some of these pools, but we recognize that institutional customers of ours want to be able to use their native Bitcoin. They want to use custodians.

They don't want to take some of those smart contract risks. So you just kind of have to go where the customer is at the end of the day. We come in contact with tons of commercial entities that are now holding Bitcoin. What's the minimum balance of Bitcoin somebody needs for them to qualify as a commercial borrower? For us, our minimum, load size is about 10 million bucks so that would be something like you know 13 and a half 14 million of Bitcoin so you know any any of those customers happy to happy to chat with

them perfect not 13 and 14 dollars I was gonna buy some Pokemon party yeah Netflix money that takes me back the thing yeah we got if we got if we get a FD lending I guess the NFTs would have to just I think NFTs have to come back before nf t lending comes back what's the floor of a board ape now it can't be i've been checked in a while i think i've lost the last board i saw was that um wasn't it justin jason bavory bought one bought one for like a million plus was now worth like less than 10 000 when that happened i went on a twitter spaces it may have even been a clubhouse to be honest but i think it was yeah i remember

the clubhouse don't quote me up it's a hundred thousand 250 grand on a board ape or something. And it was all these, it was me and all these guys with like cartoon avatars on spaces. I know how I ended up there. And I was like, I promise you I'll buy a board ape when their floor hits. I think I said 20 grand. It was 20 or 25. Now I can't remember.

And I got just eviscerated. That was, it was 250 was before. And then recently or like last year they went down to 18 grand. And I bought one and I showed it publicly and they were dunked. And then I immediately, it was like 90. and I immediately sold it for 11th, like a week later. I did technically do exactly what I said. But like some bubbles are just that gratuitous.

I felt about treasury companies last year. Like I saw that. I was like, what's funny about NFTs is they've just been rebranded and now the word is tokenized, right? So there's not a complete one-to-one connection, but it's not all that disconnected. at least the ethos of what NFTs could have been outside of funny. For an idea, we just do what we do in crypto and we ruin it.

Yeah. Well, until it comes back around the carousel and we'll make it will for sure. My port-aids to pump. Sid, man, thank you so much for joining. I know, thanks for having me. I really appreciate and thank you for helping us break that down. It's so confusing. No, no, my pleasure.

All right. Thanks, guys. I'm going to go buy an ape right now. I don't know when you get them for less than 20 grand, but I've been watching them for a long time. They've never fallen below 100 grand. They're still over 100. Scott knows people.

Scott knows. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not talking about Bored A's. You're talking about Punks have held value versus Eif pretty much indefinitely. They've actually been like all laughs aside, a tremendous store value. Right down the Borg's on Doreenkego, board ape floor right now is less than 80. Glad I got out when I. I did after my big purchase, to be quite honest, because I would be down about one-eath if I had held on life. Yeah, I could have told you the board apes were going to fizz off. They were too

ugly. I mean, what wife wants to put that in a picture frame in your house with like, you know, what serious person is going to have that in their art gallery? That is a serious art project. We're the member of a club. And, and, And it was your membership card. Listen, NFT, NFT Miami, 2021 was a movie, okay? It was a movie. Listen, in all honesty, though,

I do want to break this down for the audience because a lot of people, anytime I get a chance to kind of educate people about NFTs, NFTs everyone thinks about as art, but that's one use case, right? All an NFT is is instead of Bitcoin, being indistinguishable between one another. Bitcoin doesn't have serial numbers. It's not I own Bitcoin 0-000-0-0-00-1. It's, you know, I own a Bitcoin. And they're all the same. They look the

same. You can't tell them apart. Well, an NFT is the exact opposite of that. It has distinguishable characteristics to each individual token that hold unique value or unique value propositions to those. And I think Gary V did a pretty good job of showing that with all of his different animals and the different things that, you know, powers or, you know, access that you've got by owning that. It sounds so dumb when you start to do it. You take your artist, you get it, and you get it. Listen, when you harness the power of Pikachu, you can do anything.

I mean, it's like one of those. We're so dumb. Gary V. He did a good job with his animals. Well, here's my point. He has actual events. And based upon which enough T-E-own, you get seats. There are actual tickets.

Like, he tried to put some real utility behind it. You know, you could just buy a ticket. There's management. There's management deltas. There's actual. Let me say this. Imagine a future where you're at Disney World. and you buy a season pass and you go with your family.

And that season pass gets you some discount to buy a new season pass. Yeah, that would be an excellent example. There's so many great use cases for NFT. Collections of 10,000 stupid pictures are not one of them. Well, NFTs would merge. That's the one that caught fire because it was the one you could speculate on. Well, that was not that caught fire because people. That was the only reason why it caught fire.

That one people deal that sold for, it was a top. That was the top, 69 million. million dollars for one NFT. Yeah. Yeah. Well, imagine if NFTs were applied to allocations of like GT3s inside of the Porsche world. Yeah. You think you bought an NFT to get in line or stay in line for the next one. That would go crazy. In that, AP should do this to save their brand. Yeah. Yeah. Any luxury brand should do this. But instead they want you to buy the nine bags you hate before you're allowed to buy the 10th one that you actually want. And they like to talk down on you if you don't want to buy bags you don't like.

You know, it's like, why don't you like this bag? It's the best bag. No, well, my wife hates it. So I'm going to end up selling it on eBay. And then they get mad at you. They go, you know, you know, you got a lot to sell it. You can't do. Yeah.

I thought it was mine. My friend, my friend bought an Airmez surfboard so that he could get a first. Wow. Yeah. Well, I, I can tell you, I went into that store. once and my wife was looking at a $9,000 blanket and we immediately left. So they're very proud with the blanket. Yeah, no, no, no, no, we did not leave with the money. No, I, I, uh, there's, there's, there's cat other places to source cashmere.

You bought matching blankets for all his kids to it. If I bought that blanket, you'd see it wrapped around my head right now. on every podcast. So that would be the way in which I got found value in that size of a purchase. Speaking of value, let's talk about new products at Archpublic. Yeah. Because we are releasing one. It's happening this week.

It's called our Market Wave Alco. And it is an extraordinary leap forward. Innovation is the foundation of everything that we do. New products. as often as we can possibly do it with our team and new products that give people just additional functionality, additional diversity of quote unquote outcomes. You know, I'll let Tillman jump in here. You know, he leads the dev team and just they do awesome work.

Yeah, I think that on prolonged downturns in particular, that like the one we've seen where you have this 50% drawdown, we've seen a need for. new indicators that still trigger a lot of the, the, what we would use to call the arbitrage or the Oracle protocol, but it still triggers the, the volatility harvesting qualities of the Algo, even when your, your powder is running dry. And so it's, that's one of the improvements, but there's many, many improvements. And this is just a continuation of, of listening to our customers and trying to make things that give them better tools, better visualization of those tools so that when they prescribe what they want in terms of the instances, they have more in

lined expectation. So the visualization of our charts has completely changed. We've given a essentially a green and a red indicator on both top side and bottom side of what settings that you put in. And that allow you to know exactly when you're going to be triggering trades and when you're not going to be triggering trades. And it allows you to go back through your historical analysis and see the exact same trade triggers that you would, you know, compared to those green and red thresholds. So it gives you a real clear picture as you're setting up multiple instances. And the common feedback that we've gotten from all of our initial customers that we've given the software to is, holy smokes, this really gives me something that I am very excited to play with. And they've just

started to play with it. And because they understand it so much better, it sparks more excitement to set up more instances. And it's a lot more flexible of a tool than we've ever built before. Well, in the outcomes, right? I'll do my best to stay away from the word performance. But the outcomes have also been extraordinary. So the ability to stack more Bitcoin, the ability to generate additional yield. And here's the real sort of rubber meets the road with Archpublic. You're going to hear about, quote, unquote, agentic investing over the next two years to the point where you're going to get sick of that actual moniker.

You're going to be like, I don't want to hear that word anymore. But what they're talking about there at an exchange or whatnot is you're going to go in there and try and figure out on your own how to create. some sort of code that's not going to screw up what you already have in your account. Whereas at ArchPublic, you have setups and strategies. And instead of doing it yourself, you get to talk to our team a thousand times in the next month if you want to. We will make ourselves available.

So instead of you standing on the cutting edge of innovation, which is like a knife, and you hope you don't fall and take half of the side of your body's skin off. slash capital, no, you get to talk to us and make sure that you're covered across the board while still being on the cusp and the edge of innovation. That's the difference, right? That's the real difference in what we do. You're going to get cutting edge innovation, agentic, algorithmic, huge warehouse of opportunity for you to figure out and what it is you want to get accomplished. But you're also going to have people that you get to talk to and, uh, you're feel comfortable with along the way, right? Well, and you know, if you're playing in most of those

agenic spaces, you'll quickly realize that it's about winning and losing. And the markets, every market is a zero-sum game at its core, which means if you're winning, somebody else is losing. And if you're losing, somebody else is winning. Well, you know, if I'm betting, if my bet is that my robot's smarter than your robot, that's not a bet I'm willing to take. and I can tell you that you can play this scenario out to the end, and you find yourself in the exact same place you are today, which is the markets are driven off of human emotion, they're driven off of scarcity,

they're driven off of marketing, they're driven off all of these things that make short-term timing of the market impossible, and if you are successful, you're lucky, okay? And so what you have to go back to is what really is, automation's primary purpose. Its purpose is to be an extension of your will. Why? Because that's what you expect. And so we want our toolbox to be an extension of your will and we show you how to use it to get there. So here's a good example. If I'm going to, and I use this all the time, if you tell me,

I want water and I go, okay, well, what are you doing to get water? Well, I'm drilling a well in my backyard, probability of success at 20 percent. I'm doing all these different things. And I go, okay, well, have you put a catch basin system on your gutters? No, I haven't done that. Okay. Well, when it rains, you're going to catch water. And that water is going to go into those barrels. And if it rains enough, you're going to have enough water. And if it doesn't rain, you're not going to have enough water. That is a system whereby which you're setting yourself up for success when the rain happens. You're prepared for the rain, right? It's not betting on tomorrow it raining. It's not betting on a week from now at raining. The volatility of Bitcoin is very similar.

The volatility of Bitcoin is like, when is it going to rain? Well, you can guess you're going to have a right percentage. You're going to have a wrong percentage. I can hire a robot to guess for me. Guess what? I'm going to have a right percentage and a wrong percentage. But if you go back to the chart that Scott showed earlier and you go, what has been the best performing asset over the course of, you know, the last decade was as it pertains, pertains to crises? It's Bitcoin. Okay, what allocation percentage do you have right now with Bitcoin? Well, I have none. Okay, well, what do you want to get to? I want to get to 3%. Great. How quickly do you want to get to that 3%. I want to do it in the first month of my journey. Great. I want to do it over

course of a year. Great. How much capital? All these questions go into a model or into software, and it shows you all of these different ways in which you can get to that goal. And then you pick from those, and then you put those in motion, and it's like having those rain catch barrels outside. When the volatility presents itself, you're going to catch the water. When it doesn't, you're not. And in the meantime, you're going to be reaching your goals that you've set as it pertains to getting your 3% exposure to Bitcoin. So it's a win-win. It's not a let me go get my agent to go make bets for me. That's a very, very different agentic trading system than what we're talking about here. And so I just urge everybody. The reason why we've made it free for everyone to use is because we want you to see that it's different. We want you to actually have the light bulb moment of what we've built. And so come check it out. Call us, schedule a demo. We'd love to walk you through it. We'd love to get you trading on it for free. The only time you would ever pay us is if you wanted to essentially get into the high net worth concierge and corporate treasury side of

things. And that just is a function of how much time it takes us to understand what you're trying to accomplish. Some of those are very, very detailed and take a lot of time and then helping you get there from a building perspective. I was just hoping that I could pay you for an NFT membership. Listen, that's coming. You guys keep joking about that. That is going. I am very, very serious about the comeback of NFTs for their actual utility.

Although Andrew kind of hit the nail on the head. They're just tokenized assets. Yeah, they're just going to be called something different. And because we've been talking about the word tokenization now for a year and a half, and it's effectively been co-opted by BlackRock, everybody's going to accept it. Well, you know, if I don't think- about board apes.

I don't think to NFTs will come back to be useful in the tokenization of equities. But I do think, like, to your point, when we tokenize car titles, it will be an NFT. Because each car has unique blemishes, unique characteristic. You have to use that type of a,

a vehicle to encompass all of that. So can we just look at something real quick? I don't know if you saw this, Scott, but Gemini announced, you know, a Gentic investing yesterday. Why don't you go to that if you can? I've been pulling up. And pull up the link that they gave people to go do.

Because this is so important. It's important because the difference between, let's just call it, the exchange idea of agentic investing. And what you have to do and who you have to become to actually pull that off, you basically have to be a coder, man. It's extraordinary. Trade Station was ahead of everybody in this department.

They were decade early. And it's still, it looks just like this most complicated thing. And why agents trading against your agent, somebody still has to win, right? That's right. But who's going to do that? They're like they can all make money together. It's not like a circle jerk of agentic profit. Who's going to do that, though, is my question.

Who's going to get in there and do Python coding? Who's going to do that? Well, especially after you lose money. And then you go, well, what did all that wasted time go towards? And if you talk about the defy debacle that we had this weekend, it's because of this stuff. It's literally because of this. It's, you know, robots having robot wars in the battle arena called defy. That is what's happening right now in the defy space.

And it's going to continue to happen. And these tools, again, unless they meet the expectation of the user, they're worthless. Because our will is what matters. It's because it's our money. And so, you know, if I say to the robot, hey, go, make me money in the prediction markets. Well, if it comes back and it makes me money, I'm happy, right? If it comes back and loses me money and especially loses all of my money in a situation like we had this weekend, I go, I'm not happy with you, robot. And they go,

screw you, I'm unplugging. And there's no neck to choke. There's no insurance trial. There's no bank to go down and see the teller. There's nothing. It's just vaporized. That's not something institutions are going to ever. I don't know. I think the like very subtle blend of human and, you know, automation is the way to go. But I don't think you just want to throw anything out in the wild and let it run. Listen, I can see like experimenting. Yeah.

Like here's 50 bucks. You can do in prediction markets in your wild garden. That's like whatever your threshold is. I am not making, like, make my like broad investing decisions actively. Think about the time. So, okay, I'll take 50 bucks. How much time is it going to take you as a 50-year-old guy with 50 bucks to figure out what we just shown? And Scott, I just sent you a link.

Like, I've got to figure out Python or some socket thing that I've never heard of before to play with $50. Like, just, it's just not a serious. It's just not going to do that, right? Going to buy Bitcoin with you guys. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's crazy. I don't get it. I don't understand it. My God, I don't know.

My friends. We're set, guys. We are, we are old man yells at cloud right now. I mean, it's still, though. No, we're just not there on the default side. I think verticals will sit off my lawn. You said a combination of the robots or AI and humans will be the best outcome. And right now, we just have a lack of humans that understand the robots and a lot of,

more robots that are being created. And so you know, if we look at the Oracle protocols and, you know, ways in which we can kind of custody information being put on chain versus allowing it to just spiral, we'll get there. It just takes time. It's an analogy that I've come back to so many times. Why has Apple over the past 15 years become the behemoth that it is? one of the reasons not the only one is you can go to the store and now half of the store is filled with spots for the genius bar where you can ask questions and get things solved i get in my car i can go to the apple store that's in my town and i can ask questions about my phone my computer or whatever you can do that and no other computer brand has those there's not a dell store

there's not a whatever and at the genius bar are I get to be a genius. So it's like I've, I book all, I book a one appointment per week. Just so like, it's like going to the gym. I've got to put my reps and to be the,

but it's, it's, you know, it's a small thing that turns in a big thing for, for the company. And it's, it matters, right?

It matters. It's why, you know, 15 years ago, most Apple users were aged, you know, 15 to 35. Well,

now a significant point. significant portion of Apple users are now 55 to 75. Those people at the genius bar, about 80% of them are people that are, you know, 60, 70 years old. Well, I would argue that they did a brilliant job of doing two things. And I think you just touched on one of them, which is making their company accessible for help, a real tangible on location type way. And I think they made their products easier and more intuitive at the same time. so there's less need for that.

Because if you had the genius bar and you still were going in there to do that agentic coding, yeah, wouldn't be jam packed. But if you're there to learn that if you hold the icon, that then the X appears to delete it, and I'm a genius when I learn that,

that is something, listen. Yeah, the same people who are languishing like at an actual bar. Like, unhappy 60-year-old single guys who can't figure out how to do the thing. All right, well, let me bring the thing back up really quick. Archpublic.com. It's right here.

Check it out. Check out all the new features. Go get your agent in there. I'm just kidding. Come to that. You are your agent. Yes, you will be. And then in the meantime, I may have mentioned that I launched a new show on Yahoo!

finance yesterday, which will, like, we got done yesterday at noon. I felt like I had just played the Super Bowl. And I was like, I have to do this shit every fucking day. Yeah, that's right. I thought about that today. I'm like five days a week, maybe. I said all those bad words. But I, like, the first thing I did when I got done was, my God, what are I going to talk

about tomorrow? Kelpedow. You're going to talk about Kelpedow tomorrow. I got Kelped out today. But there it is on Yahoo Finance. It's got its own little playlist. You can find it on my YouTube. it comes out on like five minutes after the show or something.

So it'll be on my YouTube quickly as a collaboration. That's all we got, guys. Thank you very much. Andrew Tillman, the ghost of Sid. It was a pleasure. Got to you guys. See you. Frozen lasagna, medium power, 15 minutes.

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