The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin To $400K, Solana To $420, Ethereum Not Worth Owning | Joe McCann

Episode Date: May 11, 2025

Join me for an insightful episode of The Wolf Of All Streets, where I sit down with Joe McCann, founder and CEO of Asymmetric, to unpack the latest market dynamics, crypto trends, and the true potential of Bitcoin. Joe shares his expert perspective on why traditional market cycles might be outdated and reveals where he sees the crypto space headed next. Don’t miss this deep dive into Bitcoin’s future, meme coins, and why AI could soon redefine the blockchain world. Joe McCann: https://x.com/joemccann ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER, DELIVERED EVERY WEEKDAY! 👉https://thewolfden.substack.com/ ►► Arch Public Unleash algorithmic trading. Discover how algorithms used by hedge-funds are now accessible to traders looking for unparalleled insights and opportunities! 👉https://archpublic.com/ ►►TRADING ALPHA READY TO TRADE LIKE THE PROS? THE BEST TRADERS IN CRYPTO ARE RELYING ON THESE INDICATORS TO MAKE TRADES. Use code '10OFF' for a 10% discount. 👉https://tradingalpha.io/?via=scottmelker Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://x.com/scottmelker Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c #Bitcoin #Crypto #investments Timecodes 0:00 Intro 2:27 Trump's Impact on Markets 5:11 Crypto's Massive Repricing 8:30 Gold vs Bitcoin 13:22 Bitcoin Correlation Debate 16:16 Digital Gold Future 19:06 Trump's Crypto Influence 23:18 Meme Coins Explained 28:02 Bonk Coin Origins 34:04 Liquidity Barbell Effect 38:13 Institutional Altcoin Investing 41:10 No Altcoin Season? 45:15 Token Launch Struggles 48:06 Bitcoin Investment Strategy 50:13 AI's Impact on Crypto 54:35 AI & Blockchain Integration 57:13 Bitcoin Price Predictions 1:01:04 Ethereum Price Outlook 1:03:07 Solana's Bullish Case 1:04:36 Follow Joe McCann The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

You're looking good, dude. You don't fucking, how do you not age? Like, especially with all the stress from crypto. Stress. One tweet that says, I care about the market again and you're up 12%. Which is not financial advice, obviously, but if you are, you're shorting a Trump headline.

And so the obvious follow-up question is, well, Joe, what's the killer app? And it's like, if I knew that I'd be invested in it. This trade policy is completely self-induced. Joe McCann predicts $1 million Bitcoin price. Tomorrow. It's become clear to anyone who follows crypto that the four-year cycle is effectively dead.

We would have expected that Bitcoin would make a top and then all altcoins would go absolutely crazy. That has not happened this time. Bitcoin has gone crazy because there's new money coming in and meme coins have gone crazy because that's where the degenerates are spending all of their time, but everything else in the middle is floating around seeking a narrative. When I want to understand what's happening in the market, why it's important and how to view it and price it moving forward, I talked to Joe McCann, who is the CEO and founder

of Asymmetric. Now, they're a VC fund, they do liquid, but at the core, Joe is a trader who's been in markets for over 25 years. He understands what's happening and he has the balls to actually trade on it. You don't wanna miss this amazing conversation. Although honestly, I hope that that was just the podcast and they put that in there. I love talking about Miami and the real estate and doom and gloom and crashes and all these things. But

maybe let's just start with where you stand generally on markets right now, because it's a crazy time. I know this will be a bit evergreen, so it doesn't have to be based on prices today, but we've obviously seen some hiccups in markets right now as a result of uncertainty, Trump's new policies, what's happening around the world. And we have to put Bitcoin and crypto into context of that. So broad strokes. I mean, stretch, dude, because I got a lot to cover.

So let's rewind the clock a little bit and then understand where we got. We'll quit and Tarantino this thing. We'll start at the ending and then work our, you know, go all the way to the beginning. So at the beginning of the year, I had a pretty firm view that the first couple of weeks of 2025 would be a little dicey. Just, you know, maybe a little pullback, something to that effect. And then we rally because Trump's going to be inaugurated and all this, you know, these incredibly positive headlines coming, etc. And so that was right. Bitcoin dipped to 89K and then V shaped out of there, which I was like, wow, this

is impressive. There's a serious bid here. Then you couple that with probably, I mean, arguably you've been in crypto for a while, like I have like the best headlines in the history of crypto, like by far. Times 10. You could not every day. You're like, I can't even keep up with all of this. Like, by far. Times 10. You couldn't, every day you're like, I can't even keep up with all of this, right? Yeah. So, you have this kind of V-shaped bounce,

a lot of buyers coming in from Bitcoin and crypto, you've got these positive tailwinds from headlines and policy, you've got, you know, sovereigns, you know, buying the ETF, etc., etc., etc., right? And what happened? Market went straight down. Everybody was wrong. And I was one of those people.

I'll be the first to admit it. I really thought the positioning, the setup was just, it was too good. It was like, this is just, and in hindsight, of course, it was too good, too good to be true. And for crypto to add to that, obviously, we had the four-year cycle. This was supposed to be the perfect moment in context of the halving and global liquidity

and all those things. Altcoins should have gone absolutely bananas between January now and we saw it happen. Complete opposite happened. I mean, the complete opposite happened. And I've been a trader for 25 years now and it doesn't matter. The market just continues to humble me, right? And it'll humble anyone that thinks that they can outsmart it.

But, you know, again, if you give me that setup, a hundred at times out of a hundred, I'm staying long, right? Like it's just the setups. That being said, what was happening under the market internals, particularly as it related to equities, was definitely affecting crypto. And so you had, there's these large hedge funds called multi-platform hedge funds. These

are your Millenniums, your Citadels, Baleasis of the world. They have tens of billions of dollars under management. They have what are called these pods. These are like individual, kind of like mini hedge funds within the hedge fund that are specialized on specific either sectors or what we call factors, factor-based investing. So this could be beta, momentum, realized volatility, etc. All of these factors were getting destroyed in late January, early February, and it caused an amount of forced de-roasting and then forced de-risking. That bled over into crypto because, well, guess who holds a bunch of Bitcoin ETFs? Millennium, right? Like all of these funds as well. And so you couple that with some of the anxiety around Trump's trade policy and it kind of, you know, in hindsight, it makes sense.

I think what's happened most recently though is the consensus was trade's Trump policy was going to be on average about a 15% increase. And it blew way past that. So the market was trades Trump policy was going to be on average about a 15% increase. And it blew way past that. So the market was priced for 15% going into Liberation Day and was wildly mispriced because of the tariff policy being as high as it was. So what happened, of course- By the way, I was dead wrong that day too, because that morning I was on my show saying, everybody knows tariffs are coming, So what could possibly be bad

news? Okay, I guess, you know, everybody gets there. Every economist on the planet, being up to 200 and something percent on China was above expectations. Right. So, so what we what we saw happen, you know, that day, and subsequent falling days, was a massive, you know, repricing of risk. And this included crypto. I've been a salonable for a long time, as you know. It broke below 100 bucks. ETH traded down to the 1300

handle. Bitcoin down to 74k, which isn't terrible, but altcoins were just absolutely decimated, let alone meme coins and every other AI agent coin and you name it, right? Now, what I noticed on April 7th, and I've got this pinned on my Twitter so I can farm McLeod later, is I basically called it bottom. I basically called it bottom on equities on April 7th, the day at the bottom, and it had a lot to do with a number of factors. One, there was supposed to be this Black Monday event, didn't happen. Thank you, Kramer. Kramer saved us.

Uh-huh. Two, the amount of liquidity available in the S&P 500 futures contracts called the E-minis was at record lows. Three, that also implied that liquidity in individual stock names was likely at record lows. Three, that also implied that liquidity in individual stock names was likely at record lows. It's harder to track that, but likely at record lows. And you could see this in the bid offer spread

in these equities. And then just an enormous amount of capitulative volume. I think that day QQQ and SPY traded a record amount of notional volume or something to that effect or close to that effect. And then certainly a couple days later, we had, you know, Trump or a few days later, we had Trump kind of the 90 day thing and then stuff ripped. A lot of that ripping was the fact that there was no liquidity because these individual

names are so that the stocks are so illiquid, hedge funds, et cetera, are trading them less, which means market makers are holding less inventory or they're widening the spread. So in order for them to make money and furthermore, SPY, the SP500 ETF, its net asset value. Remember the SPY is a basket of the SP500, right? So there's potentially an arbitrage there if the SPY isn a basket of the S&P 500, right? So there's potentially an arbitrage there if the SPY isn't actually equal to all 500 members of that. It traded one day at a 1% premium to NAB.

What does that imply? Hedge funds and fast money traders' institutions are preferring a macro product over individual names because there's more liquidity. And it even wasn't that much. Now, as this was kind of unfolding, what was happening with crypto? Well, it was kind of trading in lockstep to some extent

with the NASDAQ or the Russell 2000, depending on what you were looking at. But what was telling to me was the move in gold. I actually thought gold topped around 30, 50, it didn't. It may have topped today around 3500. I literally, they don't know what day we're recording, but I think I called a topping today big time, but I thought 3100. You get just above the psychological level. Exactly. That's the same thing. Right. And what is telling about the move in gold is that the digital gold narrative of Bitcoin hasn't held up, at least in terms of performance until today, right until this week. I don't know when this is going to go out. But this gold kind of reaching this almost blow off top level. I'm not suggesting that the final final top is in but I think we pull back a little bit here. If you look at the Bitcoin gold cross, right? So that like if your long Bitcoin short gold, that trade has had a multi-month downtrend and it's breaking out right now. And so does that imply

that people that are buying gold are rotating the Bitcoin? Maybe, but Bitcoin is a fraction of the market cap of gold at this point. So I don't know if that's really the case. Secondarily, historically, Bitcoin or crypto has led rallies and equity bottoms. When there's been pullbacks and equities, historically, Bitcoin and crypto tend to lead a bit. And so you could just have a combination of those two things affecting the price of Bitcoin now. But either way, the state of the market for me right now is how can you not be invested? And you say, Joe, you run a fund, you're supposed to say that, right?

It's like, well, I short stuff too, right? So my point of saying this is if we assume that the local maxima in tariff policy is known, Trump came out guns blazing, blew every economist forecast away, market repriced. If we assume he's not going to come over the top again, well, then we know what the local maxima is. In that scenario, if you're shorting here, which this is not financial advice, obviously,

but if you are, you're shorting a Trump headline. And to me, that is suicidal in markets because this guy can tweet one thing and rip the NASDAQ 10%, right? So I look at it probabilistically and say, okay, I was wrong in Q1, I was wrong on the forecast for tariffs. If I reevaluate and recalibrate where I'm sitting today,

I might flat in cash, long or short. And my belief is you have to have some level of investment long because you wanna be long Trump headlines. This is a headline driven market at this point. Fundamentals are utterly irrelevant. Basically investing is beta because you don't know what you're investing in. You're just long, right?

So I do think that there's a strong chance that if we start to see more deals, actual deals, specifically the one with Japan, come hit the tape, this should be bullish risk. We're not out of the woods yet because a lot of folks are using market internals and saying, hey, we haven't had these monster, capitulative volumes. This is just a dead cat bounce at a bear market, et cetera. The big difference, and I think it's very important for people to understand this, is that when you look back historically at, you know, 2022 and COVID and 2018 and your global financial crisis,

those largely were, I don't wanna say black swans, but they were events. Even last August with the Japanese Varshock when the banks were down 27. This trade policy is completely self-induced, which means the Trump administration has been directly or indirectly talking markets down. And so I think the heuristics that you would use historically don't necessarily apply one for one because this is self-inflicted. And it can also-

Because they can talk it up. Yeah. Exactly. So in a blink, it can pivot. We've seen that. We've seen that. Literally, it doesn't matter what he says. We go down 20% or whatever from the highs on the S&P

and the Qs and below. And then one tweet that says, I care about the market again, and you're up 12%. Exactly. And that is exactly my point is that we're kind of in this uncharted territory because the historical stuff that we tend to use to identify market bottoms

or a continuation of the downside, they're not really in this framework where we're self inducing this volatility and draw down in the markets. And so I do think the weakening dollar is certainly catalyzing some of the Bitcoin movement because it's just mispriced if you price it in dollars. So if the dollar continues to weaken, we should in theory see Bitcoin's value continue increase. BTC Sessions Okay. So we've had these endless debates

over whether Bitcoin is a correlated asset. And if so, whether it's digital gold, makes me puke to think that people think it should trade exactly like gold, even if it has the properties of gold, but that's a different conversation, or whether it's just another risk asset and trades like tech and throw it in there as Mag8. But I would say you look at those charts recently, obviously you mentioned the Bitcoin gold chart. It's been taking a beating since making a high not so many months ago. But if you look at a Bitcoin denominated by NASDAQ chart, it's actually making new all-time high after new all-time high and is a steady huge upslope to the right with higher highs

and higher lows. That's not what it would look like if it was correlated to big tech. If Bitcoin was actually correlated to tech, it would be a straight flat line. They would trade simultaneously. I've made the argument that Bitcoin is Bitcoin, that both of those are kind of doing a disservice to Bitcoin by comparing them to either. There are times when they're correlated, but I would love your take because everybody has a different view on what Bitcoin is. It's certainly held a hell of a lot of strength through the tariff downturns. Yeah. I mean, there's two things here. One is, Bitcoin is tiny relative to other asset classes. I can't underscore how important that is. It is tiny, right? But two, on the correlation, de-correlation argument, it's very context specific to like your trading

or investing style, right? So for example, if you're a fast Twitch trader, I mean, you're an active trader, day trader, swing trader, you're gonna wanna track day to day correlations to see like, hey, is Bitcoin trading in lockstep with the Nasdaq? Yes or no? Or is it not?

Right? If you zoom out to your point about the Mag 7, it's clearly not correlated. Right? And I think that this would imply if you're a fast Twitch active trader, it makes more sense from that kind of short-term timeframe. But if you're not, you look at something like Bitcoin and say, well, there is an argument to be made that it is high-tech beta, right? It's even more beta than just like your Teslas and your Apples and Googles of the world.

But on the other hand, the religion of Bitcoin around it being this for this asset that is protecting you against Fiat debasement, I think has some legs to it. The difference will be when more sovereigns, more reserve banks, etc. actually start to put this on their balance sheet. We're seeing a lot of corporates do this. We're seeing a lot of corporates actually copy micro strategies strategy Actually, in fact, we're seeing this with salon strategy So I do think that you know if if if Bitcoin is to be a hedge against Fiat embasement is a digital gold or its's high tech momentum. If it's any of these things, great, because all of those are narratives.

And Bitcoin is the first Internet native currency, if you will. And frankly, in my opinion, it's the first meme coin because the information propagated around the Internet. And so as these narratives continue to take hold, you should see the narratives continue to take hold, you should see the price continue to decouple from HIC and asset, right? It's interesting to see, you know, the massive underperformance of Bitcoin

relative to actual gold this year. To me, this also implies that there's still a lot of room for whether it's institutions, it's reserve banks to actually start adopting Bitcoin, because gold is non trivial to move around and like all the stuff we know, right? It's difficult, it's not a medium exchange, etc. Now, one could argue Bitcoin isn't really a great medium exchange either. That's fine. But it's way easier to transport, you can you can utilize it worldwide, and it's

censorship resistant, all that good stuff. I think that that tailwind of saying, the boomer version of gold, which is gold, is going to jump into the digital world is real and is coming. I'm not going to say the stupid adage of we're so early, because I think that's nonsense at this point. It's just a matter of time, as this stuff actually

starts to cross the chasm over into from the analog world into digital and people recognize that, hey, if China's Reserve Bank is buying gold hand over fist, it's likely because of some fiat related policy or currency war with the United States. Well, if the United States tries to hoard as much gold as they can, which we do have the most gold of any country, they're going to have to find an alternative. Right? And I'm not suggesting China is going to immediately go buy Bitcoin. I'm just saying that story isn't that far-fetched.

It's also not that far-fetched if the United States actually makes a single announcement that they're adding Bitcoin to the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve by buying any. Of course, we haven't even gotten an audit to prove that we have any. But if they indicate that they're buying some, the game theory of that globally with central banks around the world, China or otherwise is indisputable. I mean, if the United States says this thing is a reserve asset and we're buying some, all bets are off. I agree. Yeah, although I ought to be honest, I thought when he signed the executive order,

we've gotten some price action around that and we did it. So it's funny, you know, that the things that we kind of posit will be these huge drivers, seemingly aren't, you know, like at least the announcements. But I think that's just the velocity of announcements coming from Trump at any given time. 100%, I mean, this is the, you know, it's always easy to look in the rear view mirror and say, oh, well, it was, it was already priced in. Right. But the difference was before that executive order was signed, people were speculating on what the

executive order was going to have in it. Thus, if they put in there with a high Bitcoin, right? You know what I'm saying? And so I do think that there is something to be said about, you know, you can look at where we sit now. Okay. We have all this information, the executive order sign, we're going to be getting, you know, hopefully a market structure bill, stable coin bill, all these things by August, according to Tim Scott, but what happens when there's this kind of unknown catalyst, you know, for

example, maybe they come over the top and say, we are actually going to buy whatever 5% of the Bitcoin supply like Senator Loomis is suggesting. No one is pricing that in right now, right? Because we were pricing it before and then it got repriced. It's crazy that really markets only trade on reality versus expectation and not reality. It always happens. I mean, that clearly happens here in the case of the strategic Bitcoin Reserve. But every time we get job numbers, even though we all know they'll be revised, but every time we get job numbers or we get a Fed announcement or we get CPI, it's never about is inflation bad or good? Is inflation better or worse slightly

than what a bunch of economists have said they think it will be. Which just shows you how detached from reality all of our economic data are, and then how further detached market reactions are to that. Oh, I mean, you're touching my philosophical nerve here, because I remember I was on stage in Singapore at Token 2049 last year, and was explaining to the audience, you know, that hey, is everybody familiar with the price to earnings ratio? And like, yeah, I'm like, that's a meme. Like, what was the metric that people use before that was invented?

People don't know because now everybody uses this thing that somebody invented, right. And it's the same to be said of almost all of this, you know, economic data, if you take the formula for GDP, the actual process for CPI, I'm not going to bore people with the details, you should look it up on Grok, it's crazy archaic. Like it's kind of laughable, right? Current GDP doesn't factor in like, you know, things like tech and the AI productivity boom that's coming, etc, etc. These things

are vestiges of a financial system that will continue to exist, but the alternate financial system, which is on chain digital, is going to continue to show better promise and ultimately better results because it's digital and it's above this age, as opposed to 10, 20, 100 plus years ago. Yeah. I mean, CPI, they talk about touching a philosophical nerve. I mean, theyI, they talk about touching a philosophical nerve. I mean, every, they just change the way it's calculated. Not only can you not trust the actual calculation, but they'll just change the way it's calculated to make the numbers look better.

Right? That's right. By the way- We've had others over the years, but it's- The United States is not alone in this. So China has done this repeatedly with their unemployment rates, right? The unemployment rates for youth were horrifically bad. And they just said, oh, we'll just change the calculation. They did the same thing with M2 money supply at the beginning of this year.

People thought there was a huge jump in M2 money supply expansion and it was actually just, they just changed the calculation, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm overwhelmed to remember when like, you knew how to define a recession. Yes. Yeah. Two quarters. But you also, yeah, okay, whatever. Right. So we all know that they're cooking the numbers or at least changing definitions to see how it looks. So what I want to talk to you about then, you're one of the first people who was like constantly beating in my feed meme coins. And I'm not talking about like when we were in the Doge and Ship Cycle, Solana specifically,

Bonk, you were like the Bonk Maxie of all Bonk Maxies. That was really like a little moment in time that preceded the true insanity. Like basically, meme coin degeneracy reaching its final form on pump fun and celebrities and all those things. So I'm curious where you stand right now. Maybe you could, the history of you with meme coins very briefly, but like where you stand now on whether they're a net positive still as you obviously believed. Yeah, sure. So you are correct. I've been labeled the Michael Saylor of bunk. So, and yes, we at Asymmetric, my digital assets investment firm, we were the first hedge fund to buy meme coins in October of 2023.

Early. Well, let me let me take a step back. So Asymmetric, we're a digital assets investment firm, but we sit at the intersection of capital, culture and technology. And I think that most investment firms are either technical or very financial capital driven, but completely lack a pulse of culture. And like you and I, Scott have been DJs, like we've been involved in pop culture and music and fashion and the arts and the kind of creative space, if you will. And that is historically not something that they teach you at business school, if at all, because why would you put a financial value on culture? Enter meme coins. And so in, you know, call it Q4 of 2023, I sort of develop this hypothesis around the kind of tokenization of pop culture and specifically internet culture. And then I looked at the history, I was like, okay, Doge,

$85 billion market cap in the last bull run, Shibinu, $48 billion market cap. That was for Ethereum, last bull run. Solana hasn't had one. I was like, bonk. But this was also pre like Solana's massive run back, right? So you were also taking a risk on Solana, which was supposed to be dead. It's not like you can't look at it through the lens of Solana became the replacement for Ethereum. You did this when it was like Solana is Sam coin,

FTX crushed it, maybe it's going to zero. Oh, by the way, let's trade memes on Solana. I'm trying to give you your extra credit here. Yeah, thank you. So the other aspect of me, you know, my background professionally is I've been a software developer for 25 years, a trader and a software developer.

And so the thing that struck me about Solana was folks that are non-technical or haven't worked in open source, I've been working in open source for 17 years, don't understand the momentum that was behind Solana at the technical level. The price is one thing. I mean, I bought Solana hand over fist at $8. But at this point in Q4, I was trading in the upper 20s, low 30s. I was looking at it going like, in Q4, I was trading in the upper 20s, low 30s. I was looking at it going like, nothing has changed technologically except it's gotten better. It's actually improved, like the reliability, the performance, you have jump trading, investing in Fire Dancer. There was all of these

touch points where I'm like, if Solana did not have a token and it was just an open source project, I would say that this thing is thriving. So that was like the technological bet on it. Then I started to do some basic wallet forensics and analytics to see, oh, a bunch of stable coin flows were coming over into Solana. People were at the time from Ethereum were saying, oh, they're just farming air drops. And it's like, well, it's staying here. It's not leaving. And so then I looked at the charts, I do a lot of technical analysis, you know, and I looked at it and thought, okay, Solana is trading just under the kind of support level that broke when FTX imploded. I was like, if it gets back above that, you're going to have a short squeeze and momentum traders are going to

start buying this thing and it could actually really explode. Well, if that's the case, people that hold Solana on chain are going to see their net worth increase. And what do they typically do as DGENs? They buy a meme coin. Yeah. Right? And I was like, there's only one real meme coin

to buy on Solana and that's Bonk, which has this Netflix quality story behind it, a killer team. I mean, today they have a bunch of products that generates protocolk, which has this Netflix quality story behind it, a killer team. I mean, today they have a bunch of products that generates protocol revenue, et cetera, et cetera. I was just like, this thing's trading a $28 million market cap. I'm like, should be a couple billion if this thing actually explodes.

It was $28 million at that time? That's when I bought it. Let's see why you got that nice view. Yeah. Yeah. bought it. See why you got that nice view. Yeah, yeah. So yes, that was 2023. And we were informed actually in Q1 of 2024 by Prequin, which is a kind of data provider for hedge fund performance. So we were the number one rated hedge fund in terms of net of fees of performance for 2023, which I was

blown away by. And it wasn't just because of Bonk, it was Solana and Bonk and some other stuff that we had traded. Because at asymmetrically, we have a what's called a concentration risk policy where if a token is not in the top 20 by market cap, we can't buy more than 2% of it. The fund that you have is just smart, right? Yeah. Well, you'd be surprised how many fun minutes an actual hedge fund Wow, weird. So fast forward to where we are today, right? Like the way that I look at mean points today is I really do look at it like software versions. So Doge was probably like the beta version. Then Shibino is 1.0.

Bonk was 2.0. Pumpfun was 3.0. And then 3.1, 3.2, but they were like all these tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of Mean Points have been created. Is that good or bad? I look at it from a very different lens. all these tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of mean points have been created. Is that good or bad? I look at it from a very different lens. I love how crypto, the community of crypto,

the industry of crypto loves to rename things like revenue to extraction, right? Like they're like, pump fun, it's a startup, venture-backed startup, is extracting hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm like, it's a startup, venture-backed startup, is extracting hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm like, that's revenue. Only in crypto when your bags are down is it extraction. And it's like, sorry.

No, it's revenue when it comes in in Solana, but it's extraction when you actually cash out to have money. Right. And so like, I'm not an investor in PumpFun, I'm not an angel, an advisor to nothing, I have no dog in this race. That's a killer business, I'm not an angel, an advisor to nothing, I have no dog in this race. That's a killer business. I'm sorry. You can pound the table all you want and complain and bitch and moan on the internet about how extractive it is and farm engagement from that.

The truth of the matter is that it's a phenomenal business. That's the truth. I look at this, again again from a technological lens. Solana's chain has not suffered from this explosion in activity. And even over the past couple of months when we've had a drop in activity across the board, Solana is still two thirds of all network activity. I mean, it's not even close.

And the chain is super, super robust. There has been no reliability issue for well over a year now. even close. And the chain is super, super robust. We have there has been no reliability issue for well over a year now. And furthermore, I did not hypothesize this in 2023. But when the most popular person on the planet launches a meme coin on Solana, what does that tell you? And the chain did not suffer. It hummed right along. Now some of the wallet providers like Phantom had issues. That's not the chain, right? That's a user interface on top of the chain.

And for me, when I saw the Trump meme coin launch and I saw what was happening with all the activity on chain, I was like, this is it. We have infrastructure ready for mass adoption. And it does not imply that Sloan is not gonna have issues going forward. They should, because as you pressure test a network, you're gonna find out new bugs in the code, et cetera.

But this is one of the reasons why we recently launched our Venture Fund 2, which is exclusively focused on consumer applications in Web 3. The first, believe it or not, there's no crypto venture fund that's invested just purely in apps because they're all invested in infrastructure. And like that trade is over in my opinion, like our venture fund one or Bitcoin DeFi venture fund, we invested in infrastructure and that stuff. But going forward, look at what happened and this chain is functioning. And by the

way, yes, there's SWE and Aptos and Monad and Barra and all these other things, BASE, et cetera, that can and probably will have some applications that are built on those chains that could be breakout applications. I'm all for that because if we now have our infrastructure that's strong enough, given the test of things like Pump.Fun and Trump, we should start to see these consumer applications finally

come to fruition. And so the obvious follow up question is, well, Joe, what's the killer app? And it's like, if I knew that I'd be invested in it, like, no, no, what? Yeah, no, one knew. No one knew. Like, artificial intelligence been around 7080 years. No one was like in the 1990s, like chat to you. I want a chat interface to talk to me about everything. You know what I mean? Like it just doesn't work that way

when you're innovating. Like if it was a new form of innovation that you could forecast, it's not innovative, right? It's that simple. Yeah, that all makes perfect sense. Listen, I'm not a huge fan of like the meme going craze in its current iteration. You know, obviously, Libra and Trump and all those things. But I 100% agree with

your point on pump dot fun. Pumped out fun is a platform the extraction is from the people who use it in a predatory manner, not from the platform itself. It's a huge right. And it goes back to the same thing like Bitcoin's only for drug dealers or for criminals on the internet. Drug dealers use iPhones, nobody's bitching that iPhones are making drug money. You know what I mean? And by the way, let's be clear, you bring up a really good point. If you give nefarious people incentive to scam or defraud people, they will.

And let me remind you that one of the biggest frauds in US history was Bernie Madoff, a guy in a suit with an office in New York, well-respected in the SEC. And what did he do? He defrauded people, right? Now it was more difficult to do it the way he did it than it would be, you know, scamming on Pumped Out Fund. My point is, is the entire investment industry a fraud or a scam because of Bernie Madoff? No, the individual actors,

if you give them the ability to do certain things, they will if they have nefarious intent. And that's not going to change for the rest of humanity. It'll always be that way. Agree. But what has happened indisputably is that in my mind, we've had this barbell for this cycle. If we even want to talk about four-year cycles or cycles, we've had obviously a massive

flood of new money into Bitcoin through institutions, sovereigns, and retail, obviously, with the availability of the ETF. I don't think anyone disputes that there's new money coming into Bitcoin. I would argue that all of the degenerate speculative, even those who proclaimed that they cared about utility trading altcoins and past cycles, I think they've been proven to be speculators as well, have all gone down into the Pump.Fun casino trenches. And that's the other side of the barbell for liquidity and volume. And there's been almost nothing in between. all gone down into the Pump.Fun casino trenches.

And that's the other side of the barbell for liquidity and volume. And there's been almost nothing in between. So all of the highly hyped utility products, all that infrastructure you talked about, even the few apps that were there, nothing has caught a bid. There's just no new money on that side. And this time, ETF money is not trickling down into means. So it's a bifurcated market. Yeah. I mean, you raise a great point. And I think, you know, one, I may not be popular,

but I don't think the four year cycle is relevant anymore. And it has a lot to do with the institutional adoption of Bitcoin. Yeah. There's just like real money flows, meaning like asset managers, institutions, pensions, reserve banks, you know, these flows are nothing of the sort that you could imagine pre-ETF. It's just, it's hard for people to fathom how much money could flow into the space purely through ETFs. Bitcoin, first spot ETF, and also a very easy thing to sell to baby boomers, digital gold. How the hell do you sell them Ethereum? Well, clearly we can't, because they got an ETF in Ethereum. It's like a Greek tragedy looking at that chart. Because I believed, to be honest, I I was one of those, it's like, yeah, it'll bounce

here. Oversold, bullish divergence, we're good to go. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck. Anytime Ethereum rips, you just take profits across the board. Yeah. But-

On everything. Yeah. Yeah. But so that's one aspect. I don't think the four-year cycle applies anymore. I just think it's a different game we're playing now as institutions are adopting Bitcoin. But secondarily, you make a good point on the liquidity side, right? Last cycle, retail bid up a bunch of shitcoins, utility tokens, governance tokens, because

there weren't meme coins. Yes. And if you wanted to trade a meme coin, you had to sign up for a centralized exchange. People forget that the whole cycle last time was Doge and NFTs and some Bitcoin, but you had to get online for Binance for two months or Robinhood or Voyager because they couldn't onboard people just to be able to trade it. And that's the difference. Now it really is decentralized and we see the final form of that.

I didn't mean to interrupt you, but it's important to note that now you don't need to be on an exchange to trade the meme coins. That's right. And furthermore, Trump's meme coin launch was testament to normies that have no crypto wallet. You can just useonshot, right? Like you don't need all of this stuff. And this is again, why I get back to like

the reason we're launching a consumer app focus web three fund is the infrastructure, even wallet infrastructure is good enough where it's abstracted the painful process of a seed phrase, all stuff away from the end user, right? So my view right now is a lot of people are saying retail hasn't come back in and it's like they kind of have their trading mean points. And it's not a lot of it is like you know, you're seeing these exchanges trying to list stuff quickly and like they can't keep

up. I mean, the beauty of Trump launching on chain is that no exchange had it in time. Yeah, right. It wasn't like a mean point launched on Binance or Coinbase. It's like, no, it launched on chain. And that's really telling. So I think a lot of that liquidity where historically that would come into utility tokens or governance tokens, shitcoins, is going to struggle because retail, they want the 100X. They don't want some...

They're not going to buy an acre based on some fundamentals. But that raises a different question. Who does buy tokens based on fundamentals? And that- That was my next question and you asked it to yourself. Yeah, it's typically, there you go. It's typically institutions, right? Now, these could be hedge funds.

These could be asset issuers like ETF issuers. And I think it's way early for this. But excuse me, there is a case to be made that if you take some of these tokens like Athena or let's use Gito, a portfolio company at asymmetric. Gito makes tons of money, like billions of dollars run rate right now. They I think about 94, 95% of the validators on Solana's network run Jito and they make a ton of money. And there has been a proposal to put money, basically like distribute that money to Jito token holders acting almost like a dividend, right? Like a stock would pay you a dividend. Well, who loves dividends? Boomers. They

love them. Right? So imagine again, like, I'm not suggesting this is going to happen overnight. But imagine a scenario where we get enough clarity on tokens, you know, from the SEC, CFTC and otherwise, and assume that we can actually have protocol revenue going back these token holders in the as a dividend, asset issuers can wrap those up in ETFs and sell them to boomers really easily. Again, I'm not suggesting this is happening overnight, but asset issuers don't care.

They just want to make money on fees. And if they feel like they can package something together and sell it to the market and make it easy for them to make fees on because there's a dividend associated with it to some extent, I think that is likely going to happen. So we've looked at a lot of the fundamentals in the space right now. So whether it's GEDO, it's Radium, it's Jupiter, it's Athena, it's Maker, there's loads of these projects that are generating real revenue. But using the old metrics, I was making fun of price to earnings previously, using these

old metrics doesn't really apply because they're not businesses, they're protocols, they're networks. And so I think the mental model is, is there going to be a shift away from, like on the institutional side, away from meme coins and super high beta stuff to, hey, we're going to create a fundamental thesis and we want companies that are generating X amount of revenue that own X percentage of this network or this market share or whatever it is, and then just long those things, right? I think that is coming.

Certainly given the pullback in Q1, you see a lot of people making this case now. And I think that that's going to continue going forward. So there's hope for some altcoins that are in the middle of that barbell. But what it sounds like to me is if we're talking about the four year cycle being dead, because let's remember a part of that cycle is all coins going crazy whenever Bitcoin tops and consolidates, which obviously has not happened. So it sounds like you do not have a belief in the throw a dart at the wall and everything eventually goes up all season.

I have been on record all year, much to the chagrin of crypto Twitter, saying that there's not going to be an all season and I don't think there will be. And I could be dead wrong, but I have been saying since the Bitcoin ETF launched in January of 2024, that Bitcoin dominance has not topped. And it in fact hit a new trend high last week. Right? It never tops because there's new money coming into Bitcoin and there's no new money coming into everything else.

Exactly. And so the product of the ETF is easily consumable by a massive audience of people. The product of some utility token or governance token is non-trivial to access. It's really that simple. And so this is why I'm saying the proliferation of ETFs and then the future potential like dividend paying ETFs for crypto, this is going to actually, I would say, create bids in some of those tokens. Right? So whether this is Solana, this is Ripple, I mean, there's a Trump ETF that's been filed. These tokens likely benefit simply because the product is wrapped up in a very easy consumable form, and the ones that aren't

will struggle. Now, the other thing is, a lot of these asset issuers, like there's a bonky TF coming up, right? A lot of these asset issuers will look on chain to see like, which one's getting a lot of trading volume, distribution of wallets, all this kind of stuff as a as a gauge to say, should we go and ETFify this thing? And that's why you see things like Solana and Ripple having their, even Litecoin, having their ETFs getting wrapped up. I think that that's going to feed some of the middle, but as a VC who's got investments in some of this stuff, it's going to be tough to keep providing these tokens unless they actually drive protocol revenue or something beyond governance. I think that that experiment is over and there has to be fundamentals applied to the tokens that are being issued.

One thing I do want to point out though, is a lot of, you know, I see this all the time of like, there's going to be so much supply hitting the market. There's not enough dollars bidding it, et cetera, et cetera. That uses information as we sit here today for a future state that you do not know. So for example, out of all the money raised in crypto funds, VC and hedge funds, about 90% is in VC. We could see that normalized to 50-50. All of a sudden you've got a lot more money

in liquid hedge funds, like a place like Asymmetric. And if that happens, these hedge funds have to buy tokens. Well, they're going to create a thesis or a set of theses around what tokens to buy. And that new money or liquidity coming into the market could provide a bid to some of these assets. Most of them, most of them will ask them to be traded zero. You've been in enough cycles to know there's so many zombie coins that are out there.

They're still out there. Where some of them have hundreds of millions of dollars in market cap. Correct. Yeah. Where some of them have hundreds of millions of dollars in the market cap. Market cap, correct. So the question really is like, I don't believe that there's this notion of all of this supplies coming to market and there's no demand because you're using this kind of fixed framing as we sit here today. Imagine there's new liquidity that comes in either on the institutional side, retail side, or both that can create a potential bid. Those are the things that I'm looking out for. I just wonder if it'll be more selective this time, right? Because even like- Oh, I would hope. Well, selective because there's so much choice,

right? Not only in terms- That's what I'm saying. Because how many tokens you're invested in or that you've been pitched, because you obviously don't say yes to everything, are waiting for market conditions to improve to launch. All of them? They're all going to decide market conditions are good at the same time. Yeah. Believe it or not, one of one of our portfolio companies Hyperlane actually did their token generation event today. So I think I saw Hyperlane. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Listen,

I would like I thought that we had a few launches in the past few months that would be great barometers for what was likely to come. Gunzilla being one of them because it's a legit triple A game, trending on Twitch, has the biggest gamers in the world. And I think it's currently trading under the last round of funding.

Which I passed on. I was actually bummed that I passed on it. Me too. But now I'm like, actually, that was okay. Yeah. I mean, it was high. I think they were getting into the half a billion or something, so they were pushing it.

But my point being is it's a little disheartening when you see something that's absolutely legit that fulfilled every kind of criteria we had in the last cycle for what would be a real blockchain game or blockchain product and the token, at least initially, I still believe in it, but falls flat. Yep. I mean, look, the other thing is some of these, these are startups, right? And so historically startups are privately marked and you do a round of funding, it's at some valuation, it kind of like stays there until there's either an up round

in another round of funding, the valuation goes up, a down round, the company shuts down or the company gets acquired or goes public. That's it. We now have startups that have tokens like trading or, or like the, the valuation is trading in real time really before the, the,

the breadth of the, or the duration of the company's history is, is kind of behind them. And Gunzilla is a great example of like AAA games, straight like top trending on Twitch. All these, it's got all these check boxes, but yet somehow it's not being reflected in the price, right? There's still a startup and there's,

and the fact that there is a liquid asset associated with it, you are at the behest of the liquidity of these markets, right? So if you can't garner the attention of people to buy your token because it's a AAA game, et cetera, too bad. It doesn't actually matter. And just look at meme coins, right?

Fartcoin, as an example, it's up like 4X in the past month or something to that effect. I mean, people are like, I posted this chart yesterday on Twitter. I was like, it's the best looking chart in crypto. It's a massive cup and handle. I was like, this thing is going to explode. And somebody was like, this is why people don't take crypto seriously. And I'm like, this is why they should take crypto seriously. Because this is signal, right? Like if people are buying this, what's that telling you? Imagine what happens when there's something legitimate to buy that has a chart that looks

exactly the same. Exactly. So then you guys obviously are positioning as you already explained it, a VC2, another fund and VC, what else are you looking at in the market right now? What's interesting to you? If it goes 50-50 liquid, what would you be looking at? What kind of things kind of fit your thesis for the coming year or two? What kind of things kind of fit your thesis for the coming year or two? Hedge fund side really quick. I mean, we're Bitcoin heavy. We trade a lot of derivatives options. So we're kind of, if you take the Delta value across our broader portfolio, it's roughly

70% Bitcoin. And I'm a huge salon, right? But it's still the right call, in my opinion, to be overweight Bitcoin and have some exposure to the things like salon and ripple that are having ETFs. I mean, it's kind of obvious. The only short in our book is Ethereum. So that's the hedge fund side on more like aspirational venture related stuff. So yes, we're super interested in like the consumerization of Web3. And the beauty of this is that the Web3 piece is abstracted away. So I'm an investor and advisor to this company called golf in kind of like step in but

I'm in there, dude. I got any of those guys. I've known them forever. I was that was like the quickest sell ever. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. I didn't know you're on the table. That's like I don't even care if you guys like if this does anything like golf app that's gonna track me. It's sweet. Yeah. But it's it's legit, right? And they've done a great job of kind of abstracting away as much as you want with it. Doesn't look that crypto ish. Yeah. Exactly. And it's targeting golfers. Like it's not targeting crypto people or finance people.

It's targeting golf. And so that's a that's a type of product that is the, you know, upcoming consumerization of Web3 because they're they're using web three as a technology, not as like, we're on Ethereum or we're on Solano. That's the dumbest marketing ever because no normie gives a shit or even knows what that actually means, right? What that, yeah, I don't wanna know how my iPhone works, man. Well, exactly. Just give it to me.

How many people log into chase.com and go, what database are you using? You know what I mean? No one gives a shit. So now the consumerization piece bleeds over. We have to talk about AI because that is of massive interest to me. It should be to anybody, frankly, that is an investor, let alone kind of on the bleeding edge of tech. Yes, people understand like ChatGBT and Grok and Gemini, et cetera, and how they can help

you do things and learn stuff and this and that. What I don't think people understand is ChatGBT was like the first breakout app. It's just like one component, right? Now you've got generative AI associated with it. It can interpret images. You can prompt, I forget the name of the company, there's a bunch of them actually, where you can prompt an entire movie script that it just creates the film, right? I don't think people are really grokking how transformational this is, not at the individual application level, but when you tie it all together. I was mentioning to you before we started recording, at Asymmetric we have an

internal software product, we build a lot of stuff internally for our own kind of risk portfolio management, etc. And we've been building LLM and AI tech into it for probably almost close to two years now. And one of the things that we've done is we've created this kind of AI orchestration workflow. So instead of just using chat TBT, we're using multiple AI related tools to accomplish a set of tasks that radically increases our productivity, quite literally having agents write code for our software itself, as an example. That orchestration piece is super, super interesting to me as an investor because

there's precedence here. If you go to AWS in 2006 and they launched, they launched with one service, S3, Simple Storage Solution. Then they added Elastic Compute, EC2. And then they added however many other services they have. One individual service doesn't make AWS all the money. It's the orchestration of all the services or a handful of services that somebody stitches together. That is worth trillions of dollars. And so with AI, we're now at that point where we are at the orchestration layer of components being pulled in to accomplish a task or set of tasks that could be replacing

an entire function of a business. Marketing, for example, like social media marketing, no reason that that shouldn't, you frankly don't need to hire anybody else anymore. You just need to have it be done with AI agents and using the appropriate tools in a workflow that enables your marketing department to basically be replaced. Now you say, Joe, this is an existential threat to human beings. I argue the other side of that and say, we are no longer specialists. Being a specialist in one aspect of marketing, like social media marketing, that's commodity now. You need to be a conductor.

I think of AI almost like a symphony. You are conducting the symphony of tools within AI to accomplish specific tasks. And when these tasks involve financial transactions, guess what they're going to be using? They're not going to be connecting with Plaid to your bank account. Like they're not going to. There's too many security risk. And also, like the TradFi system is just busted.

It's way easier to just send stable coins or send crypto back and forth for payments with agents involved than it is, you know, using the traditional rails. It does not imply that agents won't be using credit cards and Stripe and PayPal and these types of things. It just means that the intersection of the AI orchestration workflow, coupled with the financial primitives of DeFi and crypto, is like a perfect blend in my opinion. People keep wondering where the cross between AI and crypto is going to be,

and I think that it's going to be everything. It is. And really everything crypto. Take any function of any business and look at it and go, what could be replaced with AI? And the answer is a lot of it. Right? And so if a lot of it in any function of any business can be replaced with AI or let's just say augmented with AI, then crypto naturally flows into a lot of that because AI is conducive to utilizing things like blockchain versus these, you know, kind of archaic traditional financial rails.

AI really is the big one. And I think people are missing it. At first, it was just sort of like, Oh, bots are gonna transact with crypto because it's digital native money. But I think that that's just the most basic limited view of what's possible there. When, remember I talked about, I think of meme coins and like versions of software. I see the same thing with like the AI blockchain thing

or whatever, right? Like Q4 of last year, or you had the AI Asian explosion with True Terminal and all the copycats and the AI 16 Zs and et cetera. And then I saw that I was like, this is a ridiculously speculative bubble. Good for people that got rich off of it. I'm not hating, but I'm looking at it going like, these things are, they're not even like,

it's not even AI, they're just tweeting. Like they're not doing anything. And people are like- And they're destroying Twitter in the process, but yeah. Yeah, they're like, it's defi, D F AI. And I'm like, no, it's not. This is absolutely not it, because there's nothing groundbreaking here.

You can write an app, not AI today to just tweet. Like it's not that hard. And that's what these things were basically doing. That being said, I do think the 2.0 version of AI agents is coming. Do I know what it is? Of course not. However, just like any form of software,

through iteration, you get innovation. And that's going to likely happen in the AI agent space. I'm keeping a pulse on some of the assets in that space, but also trying to track something that could be potentially net new. There is one project, full disclosure, I'm an advisor, but I bought the token before I became an advisor called Moby, which is associated with AssetDash.

These guys, I feel like are doing something meaningful because they're pulling in unique datasets and partnering with interesting companies in crypto to provide more insight than just some random agent that's going to buy and sell for you. There's no value in that. These guys are doing something marginally different, if not significantly different, and they keep shipping and iterating. I'm not suggesting Mobi is going to be the thing, but that's what I look for. It's like, who are the teams that are continuing to iterate on what they're doing in the AI agent space, such that they have a chance of being a breakout,

play in the AI agent space. So let's have some fun with price predictions that nobody can possibly hold us to. But let's say that we are in some sort of cycle here. I don't know when, first of all, maybe we can frame it. When do you think we peak for prices for a while? If you had to guess. Nobody can hold us to these, by the way, guys.

Crystal Ball is the dumbest thing, but it's fun for clickbait titles and it's good to talk about. That is. Joe McCann predicts $1 million Bitcoin price. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Tomorrow.

What a loser. Look, I look at it this way. So there is, on the one hand, there's this narrative that, you know, the world is de-dollarizing and the dollar is going to lose its, its reserve status and the U S dollar hedge money is going away. I call complete bullshit on this. And part of the reason I suggest this is around the world, every reserve bank for each country has US Treasuries and dollars. And with those US Treasuries, they use those as collateral

to be able to borrow against. Well, if that collateral, let's assume people say, oh, the US government is gonna default on their debt. Well, then all of that, that US treasury that's sitting in reserve banks that you're using that as collateral for loans, guess what? It's mispriced. Yeah. Yeah.

Can't happen, guys. Like literally everything is mispriced. Yeah. Yeah. Can't happen guys. Like literally everything is mispriced around the world if the US defaults on their debt. Can't happen. And in fact, we saw the latest tick data that came out from the treasury. Like other countries are buying our debt still in the latest treasury auctions.

It's not like, oh, no one's buying it and everybody's dumping it. I'm sure some folks, you know, there's speculation that China has started to reduce some of their reserves. I don't think it's actually true. They may be reducing some of their dollar reserves to buy more gold.

That's besides the point. This notion that dollar hedge money is going away, I just, I don't buy it. And now that narrative is palpable. And if that narrative takes shape, it's in improved form, Bitcoin will be at a million tomorrow, literally, because everything's mispriced. And so you're going to be pricing something in Bitcoin. People are now pricing things in gold. And you can see what happened

with this parabolic move in gold. I mean, a 40% year-to-date move in gold is crazy. It hasn't happened, I think, since the 1980s or something, maybe literally 1980. So on the one hand, dollar hegemony narrative could have Bitcoin's price really accelerate. I see that like very low probability. On the other hand, the institutional bid behind Bitcoin is where I see a potential price target of, call it 200K, 250K. It almost doesn't matter, pick a number, because it's purely flows driven. So right now we have uncertainty indexes across the board at all time highs, never, never had uncertainty indices this high ever. Bitcoin is still under a hundred K. So if we actually get some clarity on the uncertainty,

maybe Trump pivots, maybe sovereign start buying, maybe corporates continue to start adding Bitcoin to their balance sheet. Let's be clear, this is a hoarded asset, just like gold, but there's way fewer Bitcoin than there's gold in the ground, right? And so from my perspective, it's less about like pick a a number 500,000, 250.

Doesn't matter. When you start to see flows come in, the reflexivity of the market, coupled with the lack of liquidity and frankly, the lack of supply, this thing could be way beyond what people are targeting as a price target because of the flows. And so the last thing I'll mention is that if these flows start to come in in any capacity, the chance that Bitcoin makes new all time highs like this year, I think is high. The chance that Bitcoin goes absolutely parabolic, you know, this year, based on where we sit today, it's difficult to say. Now, if Trump does deregulation if he does the tax cuts and he Chills the fuck out on tariff policy. You could see Bitcoin actually rip two three four hundred thousand dollars

It really is just a number. It's more about the flows from my perspective. So what about aetherium? Well, I Give you a spread zero to 5,000. Yeah. I mean, so look, I mean, I've been pounding the table on this for years. I think Ethereum's technology is innovative and it was, and it kicked off smart contract programming like kudos. The asset is not worth owning.

It's just not. And the difference is, as Bitcoin rises, you do get some sort of correlation trading with Ethereum. But fundamentally, there's no reason to own it. And the things that you should own have better fundamentals. Just look at Solana. Right? that you should own have better fundamentals. Just look at Solana, right? I think Ethereum's cost gas cost per transaction yesterday was one penny, like they can't generate real revenue with that. And it's being cannibalized by the L twos,

which is something I've been saying for three years. And people are like, Oh, you're such an ETH hater. I'm like, No, it's just logical, right? Like you're abstracting away the thing that makes the fucking chain money. Like, it's that simple. So price target. I mean, look, I thought there for a second when it dipped below $1,419, which was the 2017 all time high when it dipped below that, I was like, this thing could be 500 bucks on a real nasty liquidation cascade. And there was a lot of stuff on

chain that was going to get liquidated. When there is a rally, it's never sustained. So it's just, in my opinion, it's another way to either hedge your book by getting shorted or sell calls against your underlying to capitalize some carry. But I think Ethereum, if Bitcoin does not really rally to all-time highs this year, Bitcoin's sub-1, this year, Ethereum is sub-1000. Solana. Solana, I think given the fundamentals coupled with the ETF flows that are likely going to be coming up, actually we saw this last week in Canada, they had their first spot ETF for Solana and you saw an institutional bid come in.

Talk to our broker dealers about it. They're like, yeah, institutions are actually buying it the same day that the Spot ETF launched. Now, is Solana going to be as successful as the Bitcoin ETF Spot launched? No. However, this is the fastest horse, right? The president launched his meme coin on Solana. There's a lot of potential narrative tailwinds behind it, but the fundamentals, in in addition to that are suggesting that developers are using Solana and building on it, that speculators, traders, etc. are using Solana for better or worse. We can debate the meme coin thing again. Ultimately, I think Solana trades well above its all-time high. If Bitcoin is going to say 150k, I think Solana has got to be at least 420 or 20. He says 69,420 dollars.

69 for we couldn't we couldn't make that up. And it actually happened. And you know that 420.6 not yet. It did happen because we have some hilarious whales out there who are like, how's the ball bro? Watch this. Exactly. Had to be Sam. I think it was probably Sam. Joe, man, that was awesome. Now I know we actually do need to go. Where can people follow you? Check out everything you're doing.

Yeah, you can follow me on X slash Twitter. You go to twitter.com slash Joe McCann. And from there, you can find a link to my Telegram and you can always go to asymmetric.financial to find out more about my fund. Telegram is fucking epic. Thanks dude. I've told you this before, but like you definitely, for traders who simply just want the quick hits,

you have the best Telegram. It's crazy, there's like 13,000 people that subscribe to the channel now too, and I barely promoted it. It's pretty nice. You know, like who the hell are these people? Well, I remember literally like I, when I first, a friend of mine was like a VC years ago was like, I love

this channel. It's this Joe guy, like you should go follow it. I went and followed I'm in there and I'm like, that I realized it was you. I was like, no joke. I was like, I met him at like World Crypto Con in Vegas in 2019. You know, that was I met you that was like one of the best and worst times of my life because that's also when I met the guys from fucking Voyager. Oh, come on. Charlie, Charlie Shrimp introduced me.

Yeah, they were, they were sponsoring that whole stage we were at. They were like brand new. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah. Yeah, no, Pete Najarian was there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was awesome. Yeah.

What a good time, man. Well, thank you so much. We got to do this more often, man. I really love the market perspective, which we don't really like always like double click on so deeply, but it really helps. Yeah, man. Happy to. And let's do it in person when you come back to Miami. Let's do it, man. Done.