The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin Treasury Stocks Are A Scam - Ran Neuner Warns Of A Massive Collapse!

Episode Date: July 6, 2025

►► JOIN THE WOLF PACK - FREE Telegram group where I share daily updates on everything I'm watching and chat directly with all of you. 👉https://t.me/WolfOfAllStreet_bot I sat down with Ran Neuner for one of the most eye-opening conversations I’ve had all cycle. We talked about how the new wave of Bitcoin treasury companies is creating a dangerous leverage bubble, why this altcoin cycle might be different, and how we’re both thinking long-term about network effects over hype. This episode of The Wolf Of All Streets could completely change the way you think about this market. This episode is brought to you by Binance, the world's #1 crypto exchange, trusted by over 270M users worldwide. Start your crypto journey with Binance: 👉https://binance.onelink.me/y874/wolfofallstreets Binance is not available in certain countries, including the U.S., check its Terms for more information: https://www.binance.com/en/terms ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER, DELIVERED EVERY WEEKDAY! 👉https://thewolfden.substack.com/ ►► Arch Public Unleash algorithmic trading. Discover how algorithms used by hedge-funds are now accessible to traders looking for unparalleled insights and opportunities! 👉https://archpublic.com/ ►►TRADING ALPHA READY TO TRADE LIKE THE PROS? THE BEST TRADERS IN CRYPTO ARE RELYING ON THESE INDICATORS TO MAKE TRADES. Use code '10OFF' for a 10% discount. 👉https://tradingalpha.io/?via=scottmelker Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://x.com/scottmelker Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c #Bitcoin #Crypto #investments Timecodes: 0:00 Intro - Bear Market Blues 2:30 Bitcoin Maxis Launch ICOs? 4:45 Ran’s U.S. Exposure Plan 7:00 Rebuilding After $100M Loss 10:10 Solana Comeback Strategy 13:40 Surviving Crypto Cycles 15:10 From Degens to ETFs 18:40 Crypto’s Tortoise Wins 21:00 Ran’s Investment Thesis 24:00 Meme Coins vs Casinos 26:30 Do You Need an Exit? 28:00 Networks Beat Dollars 31:30 Will Altcoins Dump Again? 33:30 Traders Become Investors 35:00 Altcoin Treasury Companies 39:00 Why Stocks Outperform Tokens 43:00 The Treasury Company Scam 47:00 How This Cycle Ends 50:00 Final Crash Trigger 52:30 Stocks vs Tokens Risk 56:00 Solana vs Ethereum 58:00 Coinbase Is the Winner 1:00:00 Private Sales Are Dead 1:02:00 Fartcoin to Coinbase? 1:04:00 Family vs Crypto Time 1:06:00 Bitcoin vs Altcoin Channels 1:08:00 Monthly Podcast Proposal The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

Yeah, I mean, as I say, you listen to me, I listen to you. So then I listen to your guests. I can call you, you can call me, I can call Amy, Amy can call me and Amy can call you and you can call me. But don't worry, I'm not going to call Amy. OK, so ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I'm completely the tortoise. But sometimes you also have to follow the money.

You just described how it's somewhat of a scam. The best way to make money on ETH is to buy Coinbase. We're in a world where you can literally on a crypto exchange trade meme coins into stocks. And when people do do it, I'm like, oh, you're such a newbie. Everybody needs a good friend to bounce their ideas off of. For me, when it comes to markets, that person is the founder of Crypto Banter, Ran Nooner. Now it's been a long time since we've sat down for a proper podcast, but we have a lot of private conversations, dinners and meetups at conferences where we bounce around ideas about where the market's at and where it's likely headed.

This conversation is no different. We sat down for over an hour here and discussed all of our thoughts on what's likely coming with the market, where we're at now, where the money is going to be made, and where the money is going to be lost. If you want all of the alpha on crypto markets and what this cycle is likely to look like, listen to this conversation with the amazing Rand Nuner. You and I have probably done a thousand shows together at this point, maybe. Yeah. Give or take between Twitter spaces and video. But the last time we did, I think a long form podcast was not long after Luna.

So maybe you can retell very briefly for those who didn't watch it. It was one of my most popular podcasts ever by the way. I think people just related with the pain and the loss that came with that part of the market and the cycle. But quickly tell us what happened because I don't want to talk about how you built back bigger so to speak. I mean it's a it's a highly publicized story. I think that the podcast that I did with you a couple of years ago was the first one that actually did where I actually opened up about it. But the long story short is that I built a very big crypto portfolio.

The only problem is that over 50% of my portfolio was in one token and one token ecosystem, which was Luna. And I think as everybody in crypto knows, that ecosystem collapsed in a matter of 48 hours. And I pretty much lost half of my portfolio, big numbers, I mean, over a hundred million dollars. Not only did I lose half, but if you recall that the other half also got cut in half because the whole market went down when Luna collapsed.

And so it was a very black period in my life. One of the times in my life where I was faced with a decision, give up and just be okay with having failed or pick yourself up, dash yourself off and really fight back to live another day. Now I know a lot of people say, oh, you know, like, yes, we pick yourself up. But there's also something when you lose such a big amount of money, which is more money than I ever thought I'd ever make in my life. To try and get up after that is is devastating. It's it's devastating.

And I mean, I'm glad to say that here we are a couple of years later. And I've, you know, I rebuilt, I rebuild much bigger and I rebuild with much better foundations. When I say with much better foundations. And when I say with much better foundations, that house that I built was a great house, but it was made of straw or it was made of wood, you know, like the three little pigs. So I made a lot of money, but it was money that was made quickly. And it was money that was made without foundations. And it was money that was made through, you know, just investing in one token.

And I keep saying when the big bad wolf came, he blew the house down. And then when I was forced to rebuild, I rebuilt the same wealth, but I built it in a business and I built it in a very, very, very solid diversified portfolio versus a highly concentrated high risk portfolio. And to be honest, I sleep way better at night now because I have much stronger foundations around me. I know it sounds crazy, but the best story that I can think of the Feds and Elegy is the three little pigs. I lived in a house of straw, a house of wood, and now I sleep in a house of concrete and bricks. And I'm not that

scared of the wolf anymore. It know? So it's that simple. I mean, the fact that you've built it all back and more, obviously implies that you've done it largely through the business and not necessarily through the market because we all know that altcoins haven't exactly returned to the grandeur of that part of that cycle. So it's actually a combination. The business, definitely the business is much more valuable than Mistaken Luna ever was. I mean you can't even compare.

The business is a very big business and a very successful business. But also the portfolio, one thing that you'll recall happened after Luna is that Solana got absolutely smashed because Solana had a double whammy. Solana got killed with Luna but also got killed with FTX later that year, so later in that cycle. And I quite publicly went, I basically took whatever I had left and it was a combination of now Bitcoin, ETH and then I just said, look, the rest of it, I must just put down on Solana. And at that time, you know, I posted a Twitter screenshot, actually buying it. At that time, Solana was at $13. And so a lot of it had to do with the recovery in Solana, where, you know, a big part of my bags was now in Solana. And Sol recovered from that $13. And it's, you know, at some point got to $200. But I think it's back at like $150 now.

And so that was also a big part of my, you wanna call it a comeback, a comeback. So, you know, I built a very big business before I got into crypto and there was a great sense of achievement. There was also a little bit of a sense of arrogance. I'll be honest, like, you know, when you build the biggest marketing business

on a continent, give you like, you have like great pride in what you've built and pride can kind of lead to no one's arrogance, but maybe over confidence building a very big portfolio very quickly about that it can give you a false sense of confidence. And I think a lot of people in crypto actually suffer from this because historically and in any other industry, well, historically in any other industry to make money, you have to work really hard. And in crypto, specifically in 2017 and 2021, and anyone who got into Bitcoin in the old

days, landed up making money. But the truth is, they didn't really work very hard, right? So it's like, it's kind of weird because you land up making exponential money and lots of money and money that you never ever dreamt of, but you didn't do the work to get there. Like it's kind of weird. And then that becomes your new paradigm of like, this is how easy it must be to make money. And when I got knocked down, I was forced to really work hard to rebuild. And what it did to me as a human is it gave me an unbelievable sense of confidence to say, you know what, if I do get knocked down,

I know I can get myself up because I've just shown the world that I took a big knock and I managed to build myself up again. So I don't know how to say it. Like I hate saying that maybe good came out of it, but I think I was kind of complacent before and I think when I got knocked down and I was forced to work harder than I've ever worked ever in my life and I actually managed to rebuild it, it gives me like a great sense of achievement and a great sense of confidence and a great sense of calm to know that, you know what,

no matter what the world throws at me, I've proven multiple times that I can rebuild and rebuild bigger and rebuild better. And that's like a really cool, like it's a cool feeling. I don't know how to explain it to you. It's like, yeah, think about how many people we lost in those cycles that were huge personalities and that everybody looked to for advice and who are these legends that nobody even talks about anymore. Cause I think every single one of us who was there experienced something similar. I went through Voyager and all the other things and the collapses of my bags. I lost the bulk of my net worth the same way everybody else did.

And to your point, you either get back up and continue going or you just quit and find something else to do. But it's funny because we were all more lottery winners than like successful business owners. And you looked at the stats on the lottery. I'm looking, I looked it up. National Endowment of Financial Education reported that 70% of people who suddenly receive a large sum

of money, including lottery winners and inherent recipients go broke within a few years, usually in one to three years and most lose all of their winnings in 12 months or less. Yeah. And I think to be honest, like Scott, I've known you for multiple cycles and you've known me for multiple cycles. And we have a crew of people around us that have been around for multiple cycles. And I think we've all won the lottery, lost all of our lottery winnings but decided to stay in this industry and landed up building very

very very successful businesses and now it's not around lottery anymore now we've actually got good foundations, good businesses and to be honest it's a much bigger sense of achievement. One is making money and the other one is making money and having a sense of having built something and the latter feels much more Much more real much more much more like they can't take it away from you You know, it's interesting is that you can also see it in the content that we all made or continue to make I remember going on your shows at the very beginning and it was the most degen of degen Things there was right you were just aggressively flipping all coins,

going crazy. Now we're all political and ETF experts, right? And so, I mean, I think it's a reflection of how the market has changed, but I think we also became oversensitive to the things that might actually be scams or get people wrecked that we might be talking about. And you have this sort of PTSD

about what kind of content you're going to create. So Scott, you know what, I hate bringing this back to kids stories, but I'm going to bring it back to another kid story. I think in 2017 and 2021 in the race of the tortoise and the hare, we were both the hare. We were both out the gates, chasing shiny objects, running around like crazy people looking for the next 100X, 50X, 20X, celebrating when on the screen the price was 20X. And what we realized is that when the race ended, none of those shiny objects actually survived. And who did survive was the tortoise. And those, you know, at the time, the analogy is the people that were holding diversified portfolios, they weren't chasing ICOs,

they weren't chasing meme coins, they weren't chasing AI agents. They were just buying Bitcoin, ETH, Sol and building diversified solid portfolios. Now look, 2017, I was the hare, I landed up making money, but I was the hare and I ended up losing a lot of money. And 2021, you know, I was the hair and I chase shiny objects

but lucky I did I did learn from some of my mistakes and I built a very good portfolio barring the fact that 50% of it was in was in one ecosystem which is a mistake I'll never make again. 2024-25 this cycle I'm completely the tortoise and what I mean, I'm not chasing shiny objects anymore because I realized that in crypto the game is not how much money you can make but how much money you can keep. And what I've realized is that crypto is actually very dangerous. And the reason why it's very dangerous is because it's like walking through the Vegas

casino. You walk in the lights are flashing, the coins are falling, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding the coins are falling ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding and there's meme coins and ding ding ding ding ding ding and it's 100 X's and it's Twitter and it's screenshots on Twitter and the thing is that in 2017 and 2021 those things distracted me I saw people posting their 100 X's and I also wanted the 100 X's I saw people posting their gains to be honest now when I look at it I'm like you're gonna get so wrecked but you just keep posting screenshots but you're I saw people posting their gains. To be honest now when I look at it, I'm like You're gonna get so wrecked, but you just keep posting screenshots, but you're gonna get so wrecked. So I don't do it anymore

And when people do do it, I'm like, oh, you're such a newbie. What I've realized is that that investing in crypto is very much the race of the tortoise in the hair and the hair loses every single time and the best thing that you can do in a cycle is you can have a thesis you can review a thesis once a month once a quarter you can trade you can invest based on that thesis and everything else is noise everything else is distractions it really is that simple and that's really how I've been investing this cycle. Now, what's the upside and what's the downside? The upside is my portfolio is in a much better place. The downside is that I don't give as many dopamine shots to my viewers anymore.

And so I've lost a certain class of viewer because, you know, I don't, I don't have the hundred X alt coins because I'm not playing there. That was literally like, I mean, sorry to interrupt, but at the very beginning, I was known for trading. I was posting charts. I was doing all these things. Now I'm the guy who like interviews Bitcoiners. Right. It's just a natural, I think, conversion. Everybody is somewhere on the path towards Bitcoin, Maxi,

whether you need to get there all the way or not. Or you just become more boring because it's who you are. The way you view the market is the way you're going to present it to the people that are following you. Exactly. So look, I'm not Bitcoin Maxi. I think at this stage of the cycle, it's always very, very easy to become Bitcoin Maxi. You've seen it all.

You've seen all the scams. You've seen Bitcoin run. You've seen Ethereum not run. You've seen Solana not run. But then I keep reminding myself what happens in Q3 and Q4 of the post-harving year to altcoins. I kind of hope that this time will be in a way similar, but it's going to obviously be slightly different. But also my thesis around blockchain is, look, I'm a big Bitcoin guy, the majority of my

portfolio is in Bitcoin, which is not something that I would have said two years ago. The majority of my portfolio is and remains in Bitcoin, which is not something that I would have said two years ago. The majority of my portfolio is and remains in Bitcoin. But I also have a thesis for blockchain, and I execute and build a portfolio around my thesis around blockchain. And I'm happy to share the thesis with you, because I think it might help your viewers. So I've broken down blockchain into its core principles. And the core principles of a blockchain for me, a blockchain is a way, is a method to create digital value. That's what it is. Whether

you're migrating real world value to the digital realm or whether you're creating new value that didn't exist, that is what a blockchain is. That's all it is. And when you have value, there's a few things that you can do with value. You can store it, you can trade it, or you can leverage it. That's pretty much all you can do with value. There's nothing else you can do with value. Or you can say, you can hold it, you can send it to someone else, you can trade it, or you can leverage it. And so if that's the thesis, then my thesis for holding a blockchain portfolio is very simple. Hold the L1s because that's where the value that is being created is going to be created.

I hold probably three or four L1s total. I hold other than Bitcoin. That's been my premise, by the way, since since last cycle so it hasn't gone great yet. Yeah so I hold L1s, I hold ETH, I hold more Solana than ETH, we can talk about that later. I hold a couple of speculative L1s like Sui, I hold a Phantom Sonic, Phantom Sonic is my my Pant L1's my riskiest L1 and then once you own the L1s the next layer is to just own the trading terminals and it's anything to do with trading whether it's a centralized exchange whether it's a decentralized exchange whether it's a perpetuals exchange you kind of know

that the perpetuals exchanges are gonna make most of the money, whether they're centralized or decentralized. And so my thesis is to say, hold the L1, hold the trading platforms, hold the lending and borrowing platforms, because once a person has value, they're gonna wanna borrow against it or lend it, leverage it is what I call it, and kind of hold no projects, like very few projects.

And the reason for that is the minute you hold projects specific projects that are not trading or L1 related or or or lending and borrowing related then you're starting to play in the realm of Will this vertical and this project in this vertical actually succeed and the truth is? once you hold the exchanges and the L1s, the risk return on holding the actual individual projects that are not trading in nature, L1 nature, becomes so high, it's so skewed,

that probably about 10% or 15% of my portfolio lies in those things. And the rest lies in the trading protocols, the L1s and the and the D5 protocols. So you still punt 10 to 15 percent on something that could be a hundred or a thousand X right because most of these L1s you're looking for a five to ten in a really strong cycle, which is correct, but not the days of You invest in a private sale for something and ten days later It's a thousand X like you put, there were days people don't realize that

and you were never liquid by the way. So this was paper gains, it was the casino, but you know, you'd throw 10,000 bucks into something and then it would launch two weeks later and on paper, you would not be vested. So you can never benefit from it, but you'd have like a $2 million investment on 10 grand. Right, of course you rode that back down to 2000,

but hey, those days feels over. Sometimes we made money, sometimes we didn't. Those days in my mind are, if you want that, go to the Mean Coin Casino. And you can do it in a day or an hour. You can, you have to be, you really have to work hard. Just like we really had to work hard to source the ICOs and IDOs. That was like, that was hard work. You had to find just like we really had to work hard to source the ico's and idos

That was like that was hard work. You had to find the source You had to you know, you had to pitch yourself why you should get an allocation blah blah blah You can go to the meme coin casino spend some time in the meme coin trenches and then you know, you can buy these coins that start off at a three hundred thousand dollar market cap and probably end up at a Three million or thirty million or even three hundred million dollar market cap That's where the casino is and you know if you want to take one or two percent of your money and go and play at the casino good luck Unfortunately for me. I don't have the time. I don't have the time to go and find

That you know I don't have the time to be trading the $300,000 meme coin and and to try and find it What I do know though is no matter what the meme coin and to try and find it. What I do know though is no matter what the meme coin is, they're gonna be trading it on one of the trading platforms that I own. And that's really all I need to know. I've said it a thousand times.

You don't wanna be playing at the blackjack table, you wanna own the casino. It's very obvious. The house always wins. You can buy the house in crypto. It's a very rare advantage you have in this market. Exactly L1 trading dex isn't lending and borrowing. That's pretty much where it is. And then yeah, I've got a couple of one or two bets in AI, one or two bets in like, you know, one or two other kind of projects, but otherwise really

just think about how many new ways of trading blockchain is going to create. I mean, essentially even the perpetual future, which is it's quite unique to crypto, right? Like that future perps decentralized is quite unique to crypto. And so that hyper liquid. Yeah. So you've got a great you can get opportunities to invest in things like that. What are you looking for again? Like, just invest in that. There's five and ten X's in that and that for me Like it's I know this I know this the shiny objects that promised you the hundred X Just like the ICOs promised us a hundred X and they gave us a hundred X on paper

And by the time we could actually withdraw our tokens. It was based at one day back at one X If we were lucky and the same thing with memes just like they promised us the hundred X You know by the time we got out of them We were lucky if we got lucky. And the same thing with memes, just like they promised us the 100X. But you know, by the time we got out of them, we were lucky if we got our money back. Yeah, because you not only need to be, you not only need to be right about your choice, you have to have impeccable timing and skill

to actually exit it, give up on the conviction that gave you the power to buy it in the first place. So it's basically impossible. Everybody knows how hard trading is. I don't think it's even worth beating that dead horse. So there's a couple of things we kind of just talked about that I want to dig into.

First, you mentioned that Q3, Q4 are generally very bullish for alts. So I think that, you know, that means you still at least generally believe in the cycle. So I think maybe we could talk about whether you generally believe in the cycle, but more importantly, if that's what you believe, what's your exit plan from that portfolio? What do you plan to do when that cycle ends? Is it back to dollars? Is it back to Bitcoin?

Is it just shaving exposure in certain areas? Because that's been the hardest part for everyone, keeping the gains, as you said. Yeah. The things that I'm playing, I don't think I need an exit plan for. And let me tell you why I think that. So let's just talk about what crypto tokens are. Crypto tokens are effectively the successful ones are pretty much networks, right? So like, and literally, if you think about what a network is, it's the most powerful effect in the world. When I studied networks, and the way that I studied networks is I learned about the WhatsApp network, the WhatsApp telecommunications network. And the one thing I learned about networks is that networks grow and continue to, and

once the network starts growing, it continues to grow exponentially. And there's no way to stop it because it's actually based on two rules, right? So we'll use the WhatsApp network as an example, right? WhatsApp is the ultimate network. Why? Because every user adds value to that network exponentially. Example, if it's only me and you on WhatsApp, I can call you and you can call me and that's two calls, right? If your wife is on there, if Emmy's on there, who's call you and you can call me and that's two calls, right? If your wife is on there, if Amy is on there, who's one of my favorite people in the world, I can call you, you can call me, I can call Amy, Amy can call me and Amy can call you

and you can call me, but don't worry, I'm not going to call Amy. Okay. So that increases. You're on the very short list, by the way, but you can call it. So that the one adding one user to the network added five it grew than the value of the network From two calls to six calls. So every user that joins the network Added value to network exponentially now that just shows you the value of networks Now the thing is when you land in a new country and you need to to find a platform to use to make calls

Naturally, you're gonna go to whatsapp use to make calls, naturally you're going to go to WhatsApp because everybody's there. And as you join WhatsApp, you're going to grow the network even more. And networks can't be stopped. The only way networks can be stopped is through government intervention. And the governments aren't intervening anymore in crypto. We know that. Now, crypto networks are the ultimate networks.

Bitcoin is a money network. ETH is a supercomputing network. Solana is a supercomputing network. Solana is a supercomputing network Trading exchanges are also they liquidity networks, right? So when you hold networks providing that the networks get network effect Ultimately the networks continue to grow so like we are at a point in bitcoins life We're for now for the foreseeable future bit going to continue to grow and continue to grow. Why?

Make it very simple. The more people that use Bitcoin, the more merchants accept it, the more merchants accept it, the more people that, the more accepted it becomes, the more people tend to hold it, it becomes much, much more accepted, right? So I always use this example. When will we know if the Bitcoin network has reached its ultimate value? And that is when you go out with 10 of your normie friends and you say to them, how many of you have WhatsApp and 10 out of 10 will tell you that they have WhatsApp, right? You'll agree.

Like if you go out at dinner and there's 10 people at the dinner, nine out of 10, 10 out of 10 will have WhatsApp, right? Yes. Go to the same dinner and ask them how many of you have, have Bitcoin? What do you think the number is? Two, maybe one if you're lucky. OK, yeah, OK. I've made the point. We're in the early stages of a network and we're so early that two, three,

four out of ten, depending on your friend circle, have it. And terminal point is when 10 out of 10 have it, just like 10 out of 10 have WhatsApp. That's that's a network. And networks are the same. The rules for network and the mathematics behind network is exactly the same. Metcalfe's law. Metcalfe's law. Same thing with Uber. It's value equals the number of people squared.

Exactly. So let's talk about Uber. When you go out with your friends, Uber is a transport network. When you go out with your friends and you say to them, how many of you have Uber? 10 out of 10 have got Uber on their phone, right? It's simple. So we're in the very early stages of networks, which makes me comfortable to say that there's no need for me to exit my Bitcoin. There's no need for me to exit my Solana. Yes, there's going to be market fluctuations, but ultimately, it's still safer for me to

hold these assets than to hold the dollar Right that if I'm gonna exit when I'm gonna exit into dollar the notion of exiting Bitcoin into dollars knowing what I know about US money printing US increasing the debt ceiling by another five trillion dollars the US's inability to pay the high rates in the United States, which effectively mean that the US has to pay $1.9 trillion in interest payments. I don't know if I like on good conscience, I don't know if I can swap a Bitcoin for a

dollar. But if you're right, I agree. But if you deeply believe, let's say that there will be another massive bear market, Bitcoin will draw down. OK, even if it's shallow, 30 to 40 or 50% of 70 or 80. We know what altcoins will do in that situation. If it's a repeat of the cycle, would you consider doing the very dangerous thing

for clear, to be clear, of I'm gonna sell some Solana into Bitcoin and buy it when it's much more wrecked first Bitcoin? So do you think that altcoins will still drop 80 and 90%? Do you think that the risk variable of ETH and SOL still is the same as it was when governments when it didn't have network effect, when governments didn't approve it, when there were no ETFs? I don't think it'll be as bad, but I do. Yeah, but I do think they'll underperform Bitcoin because Bitcoin has a unique situation.

But I also don't, by the way, I think it's very dangerous to sell something with the notion that you'll have the opportunity to buy lower because even when it goes lower, you probably won't buy and then you'll try to go to the bottom and you'll always think it's going to go lower and then you end up buying it back higher and never buying it back again, regardless of the asset. It's nonspecific. I'm invested in networks and by virtue of the fact that I'm invested, I'm not invested in lower altcoins. When we're talking about the lower altcoins, yes, I'm going to start exiting those and getting into much safer bets at some point. But I'm invested

in networks and the thing behind networks is networks keep growing and I'm not investing for one cycle. I've been here for three already or four. Like I'm not investing for one cycle. And so, you know, like I could have sold my Bitcoin at, I don't know, $20,000 at the end of the first cycle. And I maybe if I was lucky, I could have bought it back, but I didn't. I just held it and today it's at a hundred thousand dollars. Cause it's a network. No question. So, so yeah, I mean, I'm, I can weather the drawdowns and as for, and to be

honest, for as long as I can weather the drawdowns, as for and to be honest for as long as I can weather the drawdowns There's no incentive for me to sell the networks. It just you know, maybe I you know, like I'm not a trader I don't trade in and out of things I'm investing in things that I think are gonna get network effects So funny that all of us former traders are no longer traders though It shows that maturity and learning curve that we've been on I mean true But look, I was never I was never a chart, I was never an in-art trader. I was definitely a shitcoin investor. I used to love watching you flip shitcoins live though.

I mean, it was a thing that you guys did for sure. You're even in the meme coin trenches to some degree, right? But at the end of the day, people need to realize that that should be a negligible part of your portfolio, that you're flipping around for fun and you're just going to the casino. Meme coins for me were never more than 1% of my portfolio. It was 1% and that's probably the same amount of money I take to a casino if I went to play at a casino and just did it for shits and giggles and had fun with my friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty fun to watch you guys at that point, I have to say. But now, you know, everybody's seemingly moved on. So I want to talk about maybe what's different this cycle. what could defeat that premise.

I don't think anything, by the way, defeats the network premise that you gave, but perhaps the premise that we don't get the drawdowns or that we will actually get the huge moves on altcoins that we're expecting. Obviously, to me, the clearest is that a lot of the new money that's come into crypto has come into Bitcoin ETFs and Bitcoin ETF money as of right now can't really trickle down into altcoins. And so my premise is that all of the money that would have trickled down into altcoins at this part of the cycle has now found a new home in crypto adjacent stocks.

And that really got kicked off after the ETFs by Circles IPO. So now we're seeing the wildest thing in the markets. I know this will come out in a couple of days. I'm watching Bitmine Immersion Technologies right now. This is the Ethereum treasury company that Tom Lee is behind. So Tom Lee is our new KOL. He's on TV pumping. This thing is up currently since Friday.

I have no idea where it'll be by Sunday, but it's up, let's call it 3000% since Friday. Okay, so it started with respect. I started at like almost a zero base, right? That's fair. I'm just saying a company that is simply buying Ethereum as an asset is getting a 3000% pump on the stock market, I think we can all agree that none of us expect Ethereum to get an overnight 3000% pump, much less maybe ever get a 3000% pump.

So there is a massive disconnect here. And these are the shitcoins right now. Scott, Scott, you just defined who the new buyers are for our altcoins, right? Because what you're noticing is that the treasury company started on Bitcoin, they trickle down to ETH, there's the Solana one, there's Hyperliquid ones, I've seen some Tau or Btenzo ones, I've seen some for a company called SQD, which is a very small protocol. And so you've just defined who the buyer for the new altcoins is. It's these treasury companies, listed treasury companies, that land up buying utility tokens.

That's, I mean, you just described it. You have to understand it. That's the pattern of what's happening. You've got a startup with Bitcoin and everyone's trying to emulate that same product with multiple other tokens. And they're going to work their way down the hierarchy. It's going to go Bitcoin, it's going to go ETH, it's going to go SOL and they're going to work their way down and they're going to start treasury companies you've just described it, why? because that's the ICO hype of the cycle I think the hype is, if you want to define what the hype is in the cycle the hype is crypto exposure, no matter how you get it. And why? Because people saw the returns of MicroStrategy, people then saw the returns of

Circle, people saw the returns of Robinhood. Let me just put up some charts first. I'm showing your conservative recovery portfolio at the moment. We can talk that. Yeah, we can talk about that. I just want to show you something. If you're an investor and you say, what's the best way to get crypto exposure? Should I go into this company called Robinhood, which is a stock on the NASDAQ, which from April went from $30 all the way up to today $94, 215%.

Or should I go into the risky world of Solana, which is risky and I have to open this crypto wallet thing and I have to open this account on this, which by the way from April gave me 56%. I'm gonna go and do the Robinhood thing because that's the easiest way to get crypto exposure. Let me just do it again and go to Coinbase and say, should I just go to the stock that gives me crypto exposure?

Yes. And if I did buy it in April, then I've doubled or tripled my, I've made 150% returns. I haven't been able to make that money anywhere in buying the tokens. I don't need to buy the tokens. I can just go and get crypto exposure. So the narrative of this cycle is crypto exposure. Crypto exposure equals leveraged listed companies, which are taking leverage bets on crypto tokens. That's one of the ways that you can actually get leverage. The other way to do it is getting to ETFs. The other way to do it is to buy the trading companies.

Remember I said trading is the big trading companies, but the ones that are listed on the NASDAQ, which is Coinbase, it is Etoro, it is Robinhood, it is going to be Gemini, it's going to be Kraken soon. Kraken's got a great OTC market at the moment. Kraken seems to be coming onto the market at a $10 billion valuation. And I think by the time it comes onto the market, Kraken is going to be at a $20 to $25 billion valuation. Circle was trading privately the day before IPO and Robinhood users could gain exposure

at like $24 to bucks went over 200. Yeah, so I know Circle was offered to me at 6 billion and I tried to take it and the paperwork was too complicated. And now it's 60ish right? I'm guessing it's about 60. I think not. I think it's back down to like 40ish. I mean, I'll quickly check for us now.

Yeah, that aligns if people were buying it 24, 26 bucks a share and it was up, you know, 200 bucks is an 8, 9 X right at the top. So in a week. In a week. So I'm trying to understand how that money finds its way to the actual token. So I definitely understand in your theory, which is correct, that if these Treasury companies have to buy these assets, then that is the buyer. But this price of these Treasury companies is not commensurate to the amount they're buying or the rise. It's the hype, right? So like 95% of these Treasury companies

are a scam. And I'm going to explain to you how that was trying to go. Okay, so let me explain to you. Can I know this? I can only tell you this because I've been approached by a few of these companies to actually become seed investors. I had 30, probably 30 of them pitched to me in Vegas, by the way. Okay, so let me explain to you the model and how it works. Joe Rubin announced the announcement of the fact that he was going to start this, is it called Sharp Link Gaming or whatever it is, right? And let me try and find this announcement for you because I think sharp link is Announcement, I just want to I want to try because I want to show you where the scam is because I think it will really protect

your community, right? I Was just having a conversation with someone today who's pretty well known Bitcoin Maxi who said and I said I know nothing about this Who said his belief was that Joe Lubin at least was kind of behind all the Ethereum Treasury companies. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Okay, you know, that's right. So you've got it. You've nailed it spot on.

Okay, so let's just read this announcement and it says, it basically says, Sharp Link announcements announces a 425 million private placement to initiate an ETH Treasury strategy. And you read further down the line here and you say consensus software acted as lead investor and the offering included participation from Parify Capital, Electric Capital, Pantera Capital, Harrington Capital, Galaxy Digital, Ondo, blah blah blah blah. What are all these companies have in common? They all had ETH before the treasury company. So what do they do? They go to Scott Melker who has a million dollars worth of ETH and they say Scott listen

We're gonna start this Treasury company you give us a million dollars worth of ETH and you get You get a million dollars worth of our shares But as soon as we make the announcement the markets gonna give us such a premium to net asset value That your original million dollars worth of each is gonna be worth ten million dollars and you go hold on So you are you saying that I put a million dollars worth of each I get shares worth a million dollars at net asset value but this company is gonna trade above net asset value and therefore I'm gonna be Tenacing my my original investor. So now just let's understand the logic here. Consensus has a shit ton of ETH.

What do they do? They put the ETH into this thing at a one to one ratio at NAV, and as soon as they made the announcement, the thing sparked above NAV. And therefore they took something that they had and they multiplied it by 12 I know for a fact that every single one of these companies held huge ETH on their balance sheets It's not a coincidence that these guys all funded this thing. They just found a way to take let's talk about Tether do you remember the deal that was announced with Tether? Right one. Yeah with soft bank Canchel Fitzgerald, of course, and Jack Muller from

Strike as the CEO. First announcement was they raised $3 or $4 billion worth, they're coming onto the market with $3 or $4 billion worth of Bitcoin. A couple of weeks later, Tether, who's already holding Bitcoin, transfers the Bitcoin into 21. So, oh, of course they raised it. They took it from the initial investors. Initial investors got in at net asset value. Every other investor got in at a premium to net asset value. It's a simple thing. Take your Bitcoin, give it to 21 in the beginning, and you'll get X times your Bitcoin back, multiples on your Bitcoin back in shares,

which you can sell immediately. And buy a brainer. Yeah. And buy a brainer. It's a way for you to leverage it. In the pitches you saw, what were the vesting terms for a lot of it? Because a few of them I've seen as you point, you're immediately liquid. Zero, zero vesting, immediately liquid. You can sell on day one. How's this okay? It's got something to do with the way they come to market because it's not an IPO. It's a reverse merger.

So the shares are already available because they're taking shares from an existing company. So it's not like the shares have to be created there. So be careful. Be careful just to the audience. Be super careful. If you're buying these listed treasury companies, you're the product that's buying all the insiders who are putting in their money at net asset value and you're paying the premium and they're taking the money that you're they're taking the

Pre the money and they they're buying back their original ease and still being left with the 10x premium you get it It's like it's it's It's crazy. What's going on? I'm sorry to call these people out, but that's a but there's nothing illegal about it People just need to know what they're People just need to know what they're buying. This is, but I keep saying that this is the ICOs of this cycle and that's, you've just described it perfectly. I mean, I know people, I know somebody who put, you know, two million bucks into one of these. I won't say the person's name or whatever.

And a week later had $56 million. Yeah, it's a simple, simple thing. Just seed, if you can seed the vehicle, which is what everybody's doing with your original money, as soon as the vehicle, you literally have to put your money in like a week before 10 days before. And then as soon as they make the announcement, you can sell your shares and you can, if you can take out 10% of your money and it does a 10X, you take out 10% of your money, you're in it. Just see those money, playing with the house's money. Yeah. And you've got your money and you've got your original

ETH and your original Bitcoin back. It's so simple. It's actually the simplest thing in the world. I was pitched, as I said, so many of these in Vegas. I reached out to one of the people who pitched me maybe a week ago, so, you know, a three week gap or something, and it went from one to one. And I didn't participate because I just, I don't know.

I see these for what they are to some degree. I don't think it's, you know, I think some of them will do very well and that just, I don't know, I've been down this road before, but then I reach back out they're like, oh now it's 3x to NAV or raising app. You know, it's like, do your series A, B, C, D, E, F, G in a month. Yeah, in two weeks. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But look, at least we know how the game's played. Like if you know how to play the game, then you can get involved if you want, or you can just avoid the game completely, which is, I guess that's part of what we're highlighting

here. But interestingly, it captures the moment perfectly because all of that money is already sitting in ETFs and in the stock market where it can't trickle down to the altcoins necessarily. So we've basically just taken the ICO game and put it into a much, much bigger playing field with much more liquidity, much more volume, much more money and found a way for the same people who used to play the altcoin washing machine cycle

to play a stock washing machine cycle at a much higher. Whenever I see these announcements, the first thing I think to myself, okay, let's follow the money who put in the Bitcoin or who put in the ETH. Oh, wow. Jeez, you had those ETH sitting on your wallet for so long and you finally found something to do. Then you finally find your exit plan. Just sell it to retail. Leverage it and sell it to retail. Okay. So sell it to retail leverage it and sell it to retail okay so how does that end and why would someone buy any of these instead of just buying bitcoin how has every other crypto cycle ended leverage the first crypto cycle ended when people when the ico boom collapsed what is the ico boom it was the creation of quick money without any product to support it i.e. What is the ICO boom? It was the creation of quick money without any product

to support it, i.e. leverage. The second crypto cycle got destroyed when Luna, which was money that didn't really exist, because money that was being printed out of thin air, collapsed. And that with it took down all the other leverage in the market because everyone had leveraged the leverage, right? Because everyone took took their Luna deposited their Luna and all these providers yeah FT was being used as a first crypto cycle ended because of leverage the second crypto cycle ended because of leverage and the third crypto cycle will end because of leverage and the leverage this time will be the Treasury companies it's it's bro it's that simple. I've been saying this for I've been saying this

for months but I hate it because a lot of the people doing it obviously I have deep respect for and they're Bitcoin maxis and I think it's just the free money is very hard to pass on and I think a lot of them are actually legitimately convinced that this is good for Bitcoin. Let me explain to you. What's gonna happen. Let me explain to you what's gonna happen There's gonna be all of these leverage these these Treasury companies is gonna be a whole lot of these Treasury companies and these Treasury companies are all gonna be traded at a multiple to their net Asset value right there You take the net asset value multiple to net asset value net asset, multiple to net asset value, net asset value, multiple to net asset value.

Right? And that the difference between the net asset value and the multiple is the leverage. And that leverage bubble is gonna pop. And when it does- Right back to NAV. Yep. And you're gonna go back under NAV.

And those people that have money are gonna be able to buy the thing, but most people are going to get destroyed when that bubble pops. So very similar to GBTC when it was trading at a premium and went to a massive discount and you were able to, yeah, this time it's not locked for six months. And it's much bigger and it's much bigger. It's much because now you've tapped into now you've tapped into trad fires money, right? Right. Before you were dealing with before you were dealing with with crypto money,

and it was a very small amount of money in the big scheme of things. Now you're raising money from trad fire. And that's a that's that's a much bigger part of money. Okay, so let me ask you this question then. You just described how it's somewhat of a scam, whether we decide to call it that or not, but the mechanics of how people are making free money on this. But still, they have to buy Bitcoin, right? So all these entities selling in there, sending in their ETH, sending in their Bitcoin, that seeds the basic fund, but you still need to raise money to actually buy the Bitcoin and Ethereum on top of that, right?

So who's doing that and what is their reason? And how does that end? Because the micro strategy convertible node at 0% and the coupons and the financialization and the engineering, like to me, the 90th and 100th companies who do this are going to end up being, I'm not saying they're scans like Voyager and Celsius and BlockFi, but it's going to be like, oh shit, you give 9% on USDC. I need to get further out of the risk curve to give 10% on USDC. Oh, 10, I can do 12, right? And that just, they take bigger, wilder bets.

And who's gonna buy those? Like, who doesn't get that now? Who wants the coupon on Bitcoin Treasury Company 74? Who bought the ICO? Who bought the ICO, the idea, who bought it? It's the person that thinks that they can make incremental quick money because everybody else around them

is making incremental quick money. You know, Scott, when the bubble pops, what's gonna get removed is the difference between NAV and what people are paying and the premium. That premium is going to be the bubble that pops. Right, so it's the bag holders in the stock of the company that get wrecked. My first concern was that it wrecks Bitcoin, but I've kind of come off that ledge. I think it's the classic thing.

It's like whoever was holding that altcoin that they bought at the top. But then there's going to be no demand and then people are going to want to and then treasury companies aren't going to make money and not everyone is Michael Saylor with Michael Saylor's you know Michael Saylor's first he's built he's built a big base etc etc but then what's going to happen is these companies are going to start folding like dominoes and then they're going to start selling the assets and it's going to be like a fire cell right because yeah it's not there's a whole lot of cost running these companies the the the bubble's going to pop they're going to sell them but it's not actually viable or valuable for me to continue running this and then they're going to start selling and they're going to start liquidating the assets or shareholders or boards

are going to put pressure on their people to say look there's no return in this shit you've you've caused us reputational risk and damage. Just get this crypto thing off the balance sheet. And then there's going to be a fire sale where everyone just starts selling their fire sale off the balance. Exactly. So this was my premise when I saw the first second one of these maybe launched after Sailor. I said, this is what takes what would have been a shallow Bitcoin correction to a deeper

Bitcoin correction. So I don't think it's the bubble that puts in the top, but I think when the top comes and Bitcoin drops 20%, we get a 40% retracement instead because all these people are puking their assets who got in at the very time. That's how the cycle ends, sir. That's how the cycle ends. And this time it destroys stock market value and it destroys crypto value. Stock markets get destroyed with the difference between NAV and what they paid. And crypto markets get destroyed when the company start to say, oh, well, it was a good grift, it was a good strategy.

But actually now no one wants it anymore. I'm out and they sell the ETH, sell the ETH, sell the Bitcoin. And that's when the whole thing cascades and that's the end of the cycle. And that is the end of this crypto cycle. And at the end of the day, all you had to do throughout that entire process was buy Bitcoin and go about your life. Yeah, I mean, look, right now, right now, your best now, right now, the best trade is to try and if you can, to put your Bitcoin or your ETH into these treasury companies

when they're raising money and to sell on day one when they get the stock market. If you can, that's the easiest money in the world at the moment. There's 10x, 20x, and on Tom Lee's one I think there's 100x at the moment. Yeah. The thing hasn't even raised money. Well, sorry, what's the ticker? Let's just, what's the ticker of that stock? It's B... Bit, bit, I've got it right here. It's bmnr Be up more. It's up. It's up more now

Uh from three thousand seven hundred and forty percent. It's been a long conversation So we had to add a couple hundred percent, uh while we were talking it's trading 134 dollars it was four bucks The market cap of this stock is $360 million. The assets are zero. Let's just call this fail to spade, bro. Well, we've removed the veil on all of it, all the fundamentalism and all the maximalism. I'm not saying even Bitcoin specific.

At the end of the day, free money is very alluring to most people in this space, no matter what they say publicly. Look, again, if I get the opportunity to participate in these raises, I probably will participate. I should have, I was pitched so many of these, I would have made so much money already.

Yeah, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, I mean, I'm gonna do it. I mean, there's an ETH one that's on my desk at the moment. I might even actually share it with you and you can have a look at it. But I mean right now the music's on we should dance and you know, like the risk of it going under net asset value is so low because you can only just sell the assets on the market that your risk being a first time... You have assets.

Yeah, well, if you don't have assets, then you can't put it in. But if you have Bitcoin or ETH, that's the basis. I'm just laughing at you at BMNR because as you said, there's basically no assets and you got the... Yeah. 100%. Okay. So Solana, you said Solana versus Ethereum. I remember you saying it and I want to circle back on that because man, do people hate Ethereum. Look, I'm not a big fan of Ethereum's technology at all. Solana is a lot better technology. But sometimes you also have to follow the money. And if you look at where the money's going,

if you look at where Coinbase is and where Robinhood is and where BlackRock is, they're on ETH, they're not on Solana. Like you have to follow the money. You know, BlackRock hasn't even applied for Solana ETF. They haven't even applied for Solana ETF. And so, you know, like initially I was completely non-ETH and now I'm like, well, you know, I kind of have to hold some ETH in my portfolio. I think so. Yeah. So I'm Solana and ETH. Solana is a much

better technology. You can't even compare. I'll show you a quick comparison just so you understand really what the real numbers are. It's not really a fair comparison and I'll explain to you why. This is a comparison between Sol and ETH. In time to finality, ETH is 360 seconds. Solana has 0,1. It's 100 milliseconds now after the new upgrade. Maximum TPS, transactions per second. ETH can do 45. Solana can do 710,000. Daily transactions as reported. Solana ETH did on average 1.2 million. Solana did 88 million. Daily active users 387,000 and 3.35 million. But there's one caveat here and the caveat is that this doesn't

include the ETH layer 2s and it seems like the biggest onboarding vehicle for crypto is going to be Coinbase and Robinhood and Coinbase and Robinhood have both chosen ETH L2s to bring to bring people into crypto so where do you capture the value of that? Well unfortunately you ain't gonna capture the value of that on ETH because very the fact that that Coinbase is running an ETH layer 2 and Robinhood is running an ETH layer 2 very very little of the fear cruel actually goes to Ethereum. So where does the fear cruel actually goes to aetherium so where does the fear cruel actually go to the shares coinbase and Robinhood and that's why I say the play of the cycle is to get crypto exposure but not through investing in crypto does that make sense?

It makes 100% sense. Sad for our bags. Yeah 100% but it's true. The best way to make money on ETH is to buy Coinbase. Yeah, but it's so true. And by the way, the best way to make money on stablecoin is to buy Coinbase because they make more money in circle on USDC. Coinbase is my biggest bag. Well, Bitcoin is my biggest bag, but Coinbase is my biggest bag. Yeah, I've been, I bought Coinbase the first day at 320. It was up in the 400. So I waited till, you know, the dip and bought all the way down to 30 bucks. And I would post these pictures of, you know, like guys carrying bricks underwater in scuba suits two years ago, saying this is a live

look at me accumulating more Coinbase. but here we are, all time highs. And the funny thing is for crypto people, that like took forever. So you had to wait years, you know, but for a TratFi people, man, if you doubled your bags or tripled in 10 years, doing pretty good. Yeah. Well, yeah, look, my Coinbase entry price, my average entry price is about 70 bucks. That's way lower than me because I bought all the way up and down. Yeah.

And I mean, I'm trying now my next buys, I really want to get into circle and I'm just going to wait for like, I just can't get myself to buy it at these price. I can't pay for it, but I can't pay for it. I think that's coming down, but what do I know? Yeah, I agree. But I should have done it day one at 80 bucks. But then it was $25 yesterday. How is this trading at 90? Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is for me, this is what a model portfolio should look like today. And again, that's it today. It really is today

and not tomorrow because tomorrow there could be, but like really it's like Bitcoin, MicroStrategy, Coinbase, Circle, Robinhood, and Ethereum and Solana and Hyperliquid. And that together should make up, I would say 60-70% of your portfolio. And then the other 30 can be trading platforms like Sui, Sonic, and Dexler. What about new stuff though? Okay, so listen, we joked about private sales before you're still getting pitched projects all the time that are coming online. I know you already said you don't want to hold them, but like, do you take a shot at any of these anymore? No, but I love how you described that,

you know, you used to have to like fight for an allocation. It was like, we'll give you four grand and you would have to write a thesis on why you deserve five grand. Now you get pitched these things and like you want 200? Do you want the whole round? What do you believe? Look, long story short, I don't invest in any of these private sales and there's a good reason for it. Why the hell should I lock up my money when there's such amazing opportunities on the free market? When I can buy Tommy Lee stock today and sell it tomorrow at a thousand eggs. Why do I need to lock up my money with six months lock up investing schedules and you know you'll have a vision schedule for 45 years and you'll get 2% up.

I don't need that. Just can go on the open market and I can just buy on the open market. What a crazy world we live in. The only difference now is that the Wall Street guys are going to be one to profit, not the DGNs. Well, no, I think we need to get that the Wall Street guys are going to be one to profit, not the DGNs. Well, no, I think we need to get into the Wall Street game. I think, you know, like Scott, you got to go with the music's on bro and the music's on on Wall Street.

And so you need to make money on Wall Street. And you know, they've actually made it so easy for us because they've even launched these like Circle X and Hood X and Coinbase X stocks that you can actually buy with your crypto money. You can literally go into Jupiter I want to show you something that absolutely absolutely mind-blowing right? I just want to I just want to see that I can actually do it on this computer because it's a work computer Yeah, I can let me show it to you. So this is Jupiter. It's the biggest exchange on Solana the biggest Dex aggregator on Solana

and Literally I can swap Fart coin I just want to show you this because it's like mind-boggling so I can swap fart coin for coinbase That's wild Wild I've like if I press the button and I had file code a fart coin in my wallet I could literally swap it for coinbase stock. It's not real stock. It's tokenized stock But we're in a world where you can literally on a crypto exchange trade meme coins into stocks. That's who we're at. I

can do micro strategy. I can trade FAT coin into micro strategy. This is the world, bro. Yeah, I wonder at the end of the day if these MSTRX also have risk, you know, because you're not you don't own that stock certificate and you might not know who does and you might actually own exposure to nothing. So look, it's a we know who it is. It's highly reputable people. I think crack and crack is also very much involved there. It's not a joke. You know what I mean? Look again

It's not as safe as actually holding the stock yourself on the New York Stock Exchange with a custodian But it's it's close enough. That'll be our next topic of a conversation is how tokenized stocks blew up the next cycle, right? Yeah, yeah next exactly exactly We're over time. Is there anything I miss that you're dying to talk about? I Think as usual I fucking had a lot of fun with you, man. It is all we just got like, it's almost like if we only almost if we had a daily show, you know,

Yeah, I would say the ghost of Rand does sometimes join us for crypto town hall. I wish I wish I had more time, If I was the worst timing for you ever. I'm impressed you made it for as long as you did. It's kids, bro. You know, if it was anything else, like if it was work, I'd definitely find a way. But I get two hours with my kids every single day between bath time, bedtime and homework time and I get two hours of them.

And that crypto town hall used to be one of my hours. And then it was like, you know, in the beginning it was cool, but then watching your kids grow up and then realizing also cool. Yeah. But also I felt like I was like, I was always arriving home when they were just about to go to bed. And then I was like, wow, is this like, is this the father that you want to be? Like you got home like one minute before they were going to go to bed. And I was like, I can't do it.. I just I love you guys. I love Mario

I really love being on it with you and You know now actually in our winter It actually works for me to sometimes join because it's like on the border of when I'm going home and when I'm not going home But when the time zones change again, it's slapping in the middle of bath time and bedtime And that's like my best time with my well in case it makes you feel better you've been on a lot more than mario although we still get his avatar but i don't think we've heard his voice on that show now and over a year since he's uh you know the he's a superstar larry king of our time yeah exactly he's larry king that's it he's quickly because uh you guys have a lot to offer and I'm assuming most of our audience is the

same but some of it might not be. So what can people come expect when they watch banter because it's a lot more even than just what we just did. Yeah. So I think, look, Scott, as you know, I'm a fan of your channel. You usually broadcast a little bit before me. It is. I get like 15 or 20 minutes of freedom before you come steal my whole audience. No, I think look the difference. So I really enjoy the shows and I really enjoy your the guests on your shows. I find specifically that your shows are very Bitcoin centric, very economic centric, very

macro centric. I think what you'll get advantage you'll get a little bit less of that and a little bit more crypto, actual crypto technologies, tokens and stuff like that. Yeah, so I think that's pretty much where we're at. Whereas I love the macro and I love the Bitcoin, it's just for me, what I do every day is a reality show and I spend my whole day studying actual crypto

and what I can bring to the people is I can take complicated concepts inside crypto, not necessarily Bitcoin, and I can bring it to the audiences in the way that they're actually going to understand it. And that works for me. I watch your shows to understand stuff that flies way over my head or like some word I saw on X that I'm like, what the hell is this thing? I thought I knew what was going on and I've never even heard of this.

And you guys are always on top of it. We're on top of trends every single day. We're a little bit more in crypto than we are in Bitcoin and macro. But like at times like this where the macro cycle is pretty much driving everything, we do spend some time on macro, but I think we're much more a crypto channel as opposed to a macro and Bitcoin channel. We do have coverage, probably 30% of our coverage is macro and crypto, but macro and Bitcoin, but the rest of it is very much crypto, whether it's altcoins or development in the crypto worlds and stuff like that. I think, yeah, I mean, as I say, you listen to me, I listen to you. So and

I listen to your guests. I think one thing that your style has changed is you used to be a very much a lone ranger where you used to do your own charts, and you used to like, you used to, and now you rely very much on the guests. You do like a big guest network around you. I mean, I must say, sometimes I wanna see the old Scott at some point.

I wanna see- It's coming back, I've got some plans to reincorporate that. Yeah. Yeah. I miss the days when you used to draw lines on charts in public. Still fun. Right now, now I'm hiding in the closet, do I? Yeah, exactly.

I miss the days when you used to, I mean, I remember that I used to get you onto my shows to actually draw lines on charts. Yeah, it's fun. Then you became the master interviewer. The master interviewer, you managed to get all the guests, all the was fun. Then you became the master interviewer. The master interviewer. You managed to get all the guests, all the big names. I really just enjoy talking to people. Like for me, it's actually like, it's A, it's safer, I guess.

But B, it's just a lot of fun for me to kind of learn from all these people. So really quickly, how many shows do you guys have now? So we have six hosts on Banter. We do six shows every day. I think a lot of them are trading shows and gaming shows and stuff like that. I run the general crypto show.

That happens at about 9.30 Eastern daily. But if you're watching Scott's channel, then you should finish watching Scott's content and then just jump onto mine after Scott's content. The beauty of YouTube is it records. You know, you can, you both, I watch your show like, you know, every, every, pretty much every day. So amazing, man.

Well, thank you for doing this. It's always great to catch up a lot of fun. And you actually gave me a lot to think about as far as how this cycle is likely to continue and where my money needs to be. I've been really kicking around the Bitcoin treasury and all of it. I've been just discussing it ad nauseam with guests and everybody's kind of got the same conclusion.

You know, Scott, like you gave me an idea here. I must say, I've also learned a lot in this podcast because sometimes when you talk to someone who's been in the trenches for as long as you and has seen as many cycles as you, you actually get to voice things that are in your head, but you don't actually get someone who's prodding you to get them out.

And I think for both of us in this session, I think we came to a point where we unraveled what the cycle was gonna look like. Maybe our thoughts before we went into the talk and our thoughts after talk were quite different. So maybe I suggest we do this like once a month. And it's similar to like an all in, but really we'll do it like ourselves.

Just me and I having a conversation about what we are doing and what we are seeing in the crypto world. And I think it'll land up benefiting the audience quite a bit. So maybe let's make this a standing once a month. It's not too taxing on either of us. And it's great for both of us to just share our opinions with each other. Thousand percent down for both of us to just share our opinions with each other. Thousand percent down for that.

I would love that. I literally like I can look at the market and the charts all day, but you just sometimes you need to bounce off the ideas and I need to hear the confirmation that I'm right about Treasury companies. So you gave me that. That's all I really need. Scott, it's been so good, my friend. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on your channel. This episode is brought to you by Binance, the world's number one crypto exchange trusted by over 270 million users worldwide. Start your crypto journey with Binance at Binance.com.

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