The Wolf Of All Streets - Bitcoin’s $100 BILLION Wall Street TAKEOVER Is Just Getting Started | Eric Balchunas

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Bitcoin ETF buying is back after a brief pause, with assets hovering near $100 billion as institutional demand continues to build. Hyperliquid is working with Kraken parent Payward on a path into U.S. markets, while Robinhood Chain is seeing record activity and even outpacing Ethereum in daily revenue. Polymarket is also raising $1 billion at a $21 billion valuation, and GoPro stock surged after Markiplier became its largest shareholder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bitcoin's $100 billion Wall Street takeover is just getting started. That is referring to the ETFs having a total of $100 billion at the peak. Last week, all good news. Now, we've got Eric Boutunas joining from Bloomberg in a bit, but first it's going to be me and Andrew breaking down everything that's happening in the market. Let's go. What is up, everybody? Welcome to my lakeside retreat here where I'm spending the rest of my summer in

Arnia. I hope that you're all having a wonderful day. A big shout out to my non-sponsor, future sponsor, LeCroy, and their delicious flavor pompomous. They haven't called yet, but I feel like they will. I feel like they're going to call. Andrew, good morning, sir. How are you? What's up? How you doing? I think the subject header should just be BlackRock's $100 billion Wall Street takeover, just getting started, given that last week, last week alone, they took in $3 billion in Bitcoin inflows. And I think the total number for like, for the whole Bitcoin category was like $3.1 billion.

Yeah. I mean, let me, let me, that went well. Let me bring this up. I literally tweeted this this morning. BlackRock's customers just bought the dip alone. Alone. Because yesterday the big stories were like, inflows are back after that one day of outflows on Friday,

but it's all BlackRock. Yeah. $206 million of the $217 million. Yeah, you know, I don't know if we'll ever get a meaningful delineation. Maybe we'll get it in some sort of denouement a year from now when it's very obvious that the whole, you know, hacking slash, you know, data issues with cold storage was a very, very meaningful event in terms of the movement of Bitcoin. But my guess is, is that they're, you know, the movement of Bitcoin from. cold storage into ETFs is faster and

larger than we know right now. Like $3 billion in the last week of August, that's a lot, man. That is a lot a lot. Why does BlackRock? Like what's the, you know, what's the answer? Well, because that's the easiest

name. That's the easiest name when you're sitting at a Morgan Stanley, you know, on a call with Morgan Stanley and your advisors and the team, that you work with, Merrill Lynch, you know, anybody, that's the name that you default to, because they're, other than Vanguard, they're the biggest in the game. And here's the truth about, you know, wealth management, right? So Vanguard was kind of a Thor and the side of actual true wealth management for a long time, right? Because they came in and they just hammered fees. And so

Vanguard, even though they're the biggest on the block, just a lot. little bit bigger than Black Rock. Wealth management guys, they don't they don't love Vanguard, right? So they're, they would rather put stuff into Black Rock products than they than they would Vanguard.

And it was largely self-directed. Like, you can open a Vanguard account and just put money in there and you don't have to even deal with an advisor. It's very different than most products on Wall Street. I mean, I guess it was Goldman that acquired Nios. I don't remember. So everybody's trying to compete.

And at this point, you can just merge and acquire your way into the ETF race. Well, it's because, listen, there are so many narratives associated with ETFs that matter having to do with market structure and the way that markets move now, right? Like, nobody will shut up about rates. Nobody will, you know, two months ago, nobody would shut up about the straight of Hormuz. Two months before that, nobody would shut up about Iran. Two months before that, nobody would shut up about something else. and yet the markets just go up or stay at or near all-time highs. Why?

Because ETFs exist and boomers exist. And boomers matter more than bombs at this point, right? Like boomers have learned and understand that even if there's a war, even if there's a crazy person in the presidency, even if Congress is a bunch of Unix that can't get anything done, I'll just put more money into the markets via. the ETFs because all it does is go up. So, you know, McClone, right, he's kind of the anti-hero slash superstar of Macro Mondays, right? Yeah. So you're like Undertaker Triple H.

Right. I don't remember that. So here's the thing that I'm surprised that Malone doesn't understand, right? So the reason why Bitcoin has a real difficulty going much lower. And in a macro way, McLone for like two years has been on the sidelines preaching the market's going to go lower. And when the market goes lower, Bitcoin's going to go even lower. The market hasn't gone lower. It hasn't happened. Here's the reason why. Let's take a look at Morgan Stanley's Bitcoin ETF.

Zero outflows in five months. Not a single dollar. that's the bid underneath the markets and Bitcoin as an actual asset because ETFs are an entity where rumors understand, investors understand, just put money into this stuff. And three months from now, your account's going to be higher. Six months from now, it's probably going to be higher nine months from now, maybe a little bit flat, but it's not going to be down 30%. that's how they think that's how they allocated and and since morgan stanley has gotten into the

et fetef game with with bitcoin and now ethereum you're you're not going to see outflows in those products because those are asset allocation choices that will sit there for years years and years black rock can play all the games it want you know black rock is a tool black rock's ibit is a tool sure it's an investing tool but at the same time it's also tied to their option stuff and and and I bid options. So you've got huge hedge funds, fed funds messing around with all that stuff. So money comes in,

money goes out. But Morgan Stanley is a pure play, American consumer, wealth management client product. Money goes in and it stays there. And so that's the bid underneath Bitcoin. That's the bid underneath the S&P. That's the bid under the NASDAQ.

That's the bid under SpaceX too, by the way. Like, what happened? I thought that, you know, we were going to go to 80 or under 80 with SpaceX when there was all these unlocks. That's because the American investor has learned you commit something and you don't come off of it because it's going to go higher. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah, I mean, Bitcoin's resilience here has been somewhat impressive to me. Obviously, very hard to say that it's been correlated to other assets over the past few weeks. it kind of had its own big move, and it's stuck here around 78, which I find extremely impressive. Yeah. In the face of all those things you kind of laughed at, right? Boomers, boomers better than bombs. It's funny. I used to have a teacher that said drop beats, not bombs.

That was the first Iraq. That was in the Iraq War in like the early 2000s. Anyways. Yeah, yeah. That was really protesting that one hard. Japan's benchmark bond yield rises to 3% for first time in 30 years, right? I mean, oil prices rise has really. renewed U.S. Iran fighting deep into Hormuz supply risk. I don't know if anybody has taken a quick

look at United States bond yield, but that whole percent trying to calm the market thing, I don't believe him. Yeah. Right? It's actually, this is all the macro bad news that's supposed to be bad for Bitcoin. Right. Hang it in there. Well, again, you and I probably both expected because we've been in the space for a long time. I expected, you know, I expected Bitcoin to pull back to 72, maybe, you know, somewhere in that space. Didn't, right? And again, it may, but it hasn't. Right. Well, again, that's the bid associated with ETFs. And once Eric gets there, he'll talk about that dynamic. Once you've gotten a foothold into the ETF space and what is the ETF space. The ETF space is you're part of the hive mind that is now boomer investing,

where it's allocation and allocation and allocation. That's what it is. And so in other words, there's a bid underneath an asset once you've grown an ETF category to a certain level. When Morgan Stanley decides to get into Bitcoin, because they see demand for, from their clients. They're just not blindly aping in to, they don't have anything to do with crypto Twitter, right? You know what I mean? Like Morgan Stanley is saying, wait a minute,

there's data everywhere that this is an asset that our clients want to have access to. They are immediately, when we offer it on our platform, they immediately rushed in with an allocation with competitive products, we need to offer it. Because, you know, even though our fees may be the smallest, we need to make those fees. Like, why aren't we making those fees? And so they offered it and clients are scooping it up.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I replied to some, you know, some post yesterday by somebody having to do with, you know, the latest, oh, this is going to be a problem. I don't know if it had to do with rates or it had to do with the war, probably had to do with the war. You know, the war is going to take longer, blah, blah, blah, but that was my point. Like, already gone to what war? Yeah, war. Yeah, war. In one of the rates in America? Yeah, it is, you know, boomers are bigger than bombs.

They just keep investing. And the other thing to talk about is probably the, You know, this has been going on for a long time. Sort of the disconnection associated with really just bonds overall as an investable asset. Like boomers have taken a look at that and said, yeah, there's some stability there. And yeah, if you hold it till maturity, you're going to get what you get. But, you know, in the meantime, you get volatility to the downside, nothing to the upside. So why would I even subscribe to a 60-40 type portfolio?

I'm more 80-20, and the 20 is going to be in cash so that I can allocate to additional growth-type assets when the opportunity arises. I don't know this, but you know this, but cash rules everything around me. Yeah, right, right. It is. I mean, I look, you go, you subscribe to Wu Ting Financial. Of course.

You know, U-Tang was a meaningful part of my development as an adolescent, as it was dollar, dollar, bill. That's right. So, yeah, there are, there have been structural changes, not only in our world of crypto and Bitcoin, but over the course of a 15-year period in traditional finance as well. There really has been. Like last night, I was watching a show, a social. with the whole Madoff thing, and it was 2011.

And it still sounded like the world was coming to an end because Madoff pulled off a $50 billion Ponzi scheme. $80 billion doesn't feel like that much money anymore. I mean, you know what I mean? 50 billion, okay, it happened and there were problems. Like, didn't, it wasn't the, so what was the hedge fund guy that was like 14 years old or something and, you know, Citadel took all his money? Wasn't that like 45 billion or something?

Asperger's. Yeah. Like that was like that was that was almost a made off level event. And Ken Griffin at Citadel just scooped it up and everybody made memes and there's like, I don't know. I don't want to misquote it. But like last week, it was like a week after it happened. Situational awareness. Yeah.

Yeah. They said it all. Or like 90% of the assets they had bought it. It sold because they bought them at discount and immediately, I'm assuming just sold them at market and took the gap. It wasn't like a deep investment thesis they had in what situational awareness was holding. It was like, this stuff is literally free money. You buy it a 20% discount count and just sell it on the open market and keep our VIG. Yeah.

So again, I'm trying to remember the total amount of money that was involved there, whether it was $30 billion or $40 or $45 or something. But it was, you know, that approaches the highest levels of what the biggest Ponzi scheme in the history of finance was $15,000. years ago with Madoff. And I'm telling you... That loss roughly $30 to $35 billion. I have AI, so I'm smart.

Yeah. So, you know, for a three to four year period, that Madoff thing turned markets into almost an uninvestable type of process. Because people got hurt so bad in the bastion of a financial. New York and surrounding areas, Europe, all the investor class got hit hard. So it's like, who can I trust? I can't trust anybody. The market's rigged.

We can't do this, right? And if you'd have been investing then, if you'd have stayed invested, those are the lessons that have been learned, even when the headlines are working as hard as they possibly can to make you believe that the market's going to go down in a meaningful way. look at Jim Kramer this morning. He won't shut up about yields, right? Which of course means that the opposite is going to happen. Yields will probably finally go down because Jim Kramer's talking about it, right?

So, you know, I guess negative headlines sell they have for millennia. But in the investor class have learned their lesson and they just keep allocating, right? And again, to the point I made before, really? The guy was the, okay. I was not sure if we could pull that off today. I was just going to say, I don't know if you heard of SBF. Yeah, I was literally, I was going to come out of my mouth to hear about that guy who is still trying to get out of prison, right?

And by the way, Bernie Madoff got 150 years in prison. SBF got 25. Yeah, but that's because of who they stole from. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But yeah, I mean, the guy was quote unquote period. I mean, the guy still money. I mean, SBF stole from like the commoner, Bertie Madoff stole from the most powerful people on planet Earth. When you think about how bold that was, university endowments and like, I mean, like, for sure. I mean, the biggest wall of money on planet Earth, he was just using it as person. Yeah, for sure. I mean, the most really, really,

the ugliest part of that story is, you know, kind of what happened to his family after the fact. I mean, that's just, that's really tough. But again, in the aggregate, right? So the truth of the matter is, is that, you know, 35 billion for situational awareness, that's actually worth more than the 50 billion that was, you know, back in the day with Bernie Madoff. So it's, it's, you know, interesting to take a look at how quickly, things change, how narratives change, how, you know, we can be at war with Iran for five years. And from an investing standpoint, markets will be higher.

They simply will. Yeah. I'd like your take on this. Yeah. Trump to raise a $21 billion. The market raise a $21 billion value. So they already had, I think, $200 million in there. They're adding $300 million.

And it's not weird that polymarket is not available in the United States. Yeah. Trump Jr.'s fund is plowing in. So do we think it's- Well, Scott, let me introduce you to a concept. There's legal and then there's moral. Those are two different things probably. You don't understand.

You've been in crypto too long. You know, you don't know that they have a tough time with the difference. So yeah. listen, there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. And oftentimes the legalities, you know, with the actual laws, don't intersect with those concepts. You know, we probably all should be a little bit uncomfortable with the links that, you know, Trump's family has gone to engage in, you know, meaningful profiteering while at the same time understand that it's, it's not illegal. It's politically unwell. It's not helping, you know, their particular party and their

brand. But hundreds of millions slash billions upon billions generally trumps, you know, in quotes, you know, how anybody feels about a political brand. Here's another, because I've been watching some old, you know, like, uh, front line and 60 minutes type stuff, which is weird for me because I'm not really cut from that cloth, but whatever. It's good history. Um, you know, I'm looking back at, you know, uh, the great financial crisis and who did they arrest, who did they not arrest. I'm looking back at the whole Stephen Cohen, the hedge fund manager, um, SAC and now 0.72, who now also owns the Mets. Yeah, I'm looking back at those sagas and in just finding it very interesting.

Like, you know, what did that look like? Why was it such a huge deal back then? It was, you know, in finance, it was the end-all, be-all. It was, you know, every day on CNBC, there was a Stephen Cohen segment. There was a segment from both Gasparino and then Steve Leasman talking about it from both sides, both legality and morality and all that stuff, depositions and videos. And I mean, it was, you know, people were obsessed with it. While at the same time, you come to this sort of fork in the road, which is what is

legal, what can you prove, and then the morality of it. And it's interesting that, you know, you get past it. So, SAC, you know, took a hit. we always talk about 1.8 billion they paid a 1.8 billion dollar fine it wasn't actually 1.8 billion it was 1.2 because there's 600 million of funny money in there um but then it just all just went away it just literally went away there was no reputational damage to stephen cohen like you you now own a massive massive baseball brand um yeah with game stop too right right right he was like yeah like yeah like

Yeah, absolutely. Like he was buddies with the Melvin Capital guy, you know, gave him a bunch of loans to kind of prop him up. And again, the movie, Dumb Money. He was a prominent figure portrayed in that movie. But point being is that markets have seen everything. They've seen everything. They've seen villains. They've seen anti-heroes.

They've seen wars. They've seen rate shocks. They've seen oil spikes. They've seen, you know, game stop and meme coin insanity. They've literally seen everything. And I come back to this again and again and again. Boomers and investors have learned that that may be interesting to keep on on silent in the background in case you want to turn on the sound every once in a while.

Other than that, just keep putting money in the market, man. Oh, someone's whispering in your ear again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who is that guy? Right there. I don't know who that is. Bloomberg. I put on, I want to be honest about this.

Wait, wait, real quick. We need another TV so we can have the devil and angel on your shoulder. Yeah, both, right. I want to be honest with the audience. I do put on Bloomberg periodically to look just a little bit smarter, right? Yeah, I want to the audience. I don't know if Eric Balchunis from Bloomberg is going to show up. Yeah.

I you know, CNBC is kind of the default, right? But Bloomberg just, there's the smartness look to it. There's a lot of headlines here. There's a lot of stuff over here. There's a little commentary there. It almost has a little bit of a British feel to it, you know? So, yeah, I don't, I don't watch much Bloomberg. But for this show to look a little bit smarter with the black t-shirt and the black glasses, that's-

Is that Bloomberg TV behind you? I don't know. The NBC. Yeah, Bloomberg TV. People watch that. Not really, no. I think that might be Eric on the show. He ghosted us.

I mean, I can't see it. It looks like Eric. Well, here's the thing. Right at the beginning, and he was supposed to come at 9.15. He appeared. I don't know if you stopped. You may not be able to see that, but I saw him and I was about to bring it on and then gone. He's in the title, man.

Tillman kidnapped him. That's what happened. I'm going to change. Bitcoin's $100 billion Wall Street take over just getting started, Andrew Parrish. Or not Eric. Belchutis. Yeah, not Eric Belchus. Can we say Balchunis? I said Balchonis. Eric Belchutis and then afterwards in parentheses, JK.

We're going to have to talk about Eric Balchunis type thing. So I was going to bring up the fact that he wrote a book and talk about that. Let's see what else we got. I mean, should we talk about hyperliquid coming to the United States of Americas? So hyperliquid seeks U.S. foothold through crack and parent payroll. in crypto perpetuals deal. So you had Trump saying hyperliquid, which is kind of a big deal. And saying they're going to onshore them.

And now we see that maybe their path is through crack in. Hyperliquit comes onshore and we can degen that hard. I mean, everybody's going to be on notice. It's crazy. By the way, they're also payword. Apparently is the most important company on planet Earth. Yeah. Well, they can't exchange to work with payward to bring biggest U.S. stocks on chain.

Yeah, it is. There's a lot going on underneath everything here. Like, Cracken is a big deal, by the way. And their pay where is a big deal. Just a, you know, just a little sampling. Like our company, Archpublic, we work with a bunch of exchanges. And we never talk about Cracken. You've heard us talk about Coinbase and Gemini and Robin Hood.

And we never talk about Cracken. But we have more clients and more assets. assets on Crackett's platform than anywhere else. And so that that means simply that people appreciate the experience there, appreciate the costs associated with it, all those things. And so, you know, Cracken being somebody that is a big part of, you know, these types of moves, hyperliquid makes a lot of sense. It, you know, again, there are underpinnings to traditional markets, right?

So when Black Rock or Citadel decides that something, you know, decides to start talking about something, you have to listen because that means it's already decided and it's going to happen. In some way, shape, or form, there will be versions of that and our versions of that in crypto. If Coinbase and Cracken are talking about something are involved in some sort of transaction, probably going to happen, right, given their scale. And they're, you know, the fact that they're really great at execution, right? They really are. Like, think about this. Like, Cracken leadership decided to forego their IPO, you know, about six months ago. Don't downplay that decision.

That's a really smart decision, right? How have crypto IPO gone over the past year? Not great, Bob, right? I wish we got some. Yeah, I mean, not great at all. So, you know, smart people at Cracken doing smart things and hyper-liquid, you know, whatever that partnership or whatever that tie-up or whatever, whatever that connection may look like, really, really good thing. And maybe it's just a payward thing and they threw in Cracken in the headline to grab people's attention. I don't know.

Did you ever say in your Moot-Tang days? Do you ever say, what's Cracken? Of course, I did. I mean, what's Cracken? That should be their advertising campaign because just... Listen, there's... There's some commentary here about us being quite white and, you know, our involvement in not white culture during our probably teenage years.

I was pretty involved in not. I'll just, yeah, I'll just, well, I. I think so I'm a loser and I'm a nerd. My wife is like, old now, you know? Yeah. Like video view when you were cool. He said that to you. Yeah.

So it. When you were cool before. Yeah. I was heavily involved. and let's just say basketball culture at high school and in the pretty high level college deal. So, you know, I kind of had to act as if, right? At the community interface. That's a whole other podcast is what that is.

That's an entirely different podcast. I had one of those big CD books, right? That probably had 300 CDs in it. And mine was the one that was used in the locker room. That's all I'll have to say. You're grabbing CDs, throwing it in there, have a good old time. This person says Wu is for everyone. Cash rolls everything around me.

That's right. Rutan is for the children. Yeah, that's right. I used to DJ for Rayquan, and I can tell you that Wu take is not for the children. No, no, not at all. Neither were most of your DJ sets. I have stories. Oh, that's correct.

I have stories. So moving on, this is actually kind of impressive. that we've not only seen this Bitcoin move, but we've actually seen it relatively sustained in other parts of crypto, which I find very interesting. Obviously, hyperliquid moved and Pump. Dot Fon and all these tokens that you can value that have utility and all that.

But quietly, maybe not so quietly, not quietly in crypto, but quietly for the rest of the world, Robin Hood chain, I guess we shouldn't be surprised, is absolutely crushing. I don't know how many I saw, but they have like a meaningful amount of ridiculous meme coins that already have surpassed 100 million. They're having like their own little complete dejection.

generate party over there. By the way, tokenized equity is also heating up. By the way, I've still never used this stuff. Yeah. Robin Hood chain is the largest Ethereum L2 chain of the world by gas fees over the past 24 hours. And I think Robin Hood chain is beating Ethereum, which it's on. Hey, we know that. We know that guy. Hey, Johan. What's up, Johan? And do not say Johon. That's right. Johan. Yeah. But I mean, listen. There's a lot of things happening right now. I think that's the moral of the story that not so quietly,

like a lot of the wild things you start to see in bowl markets are happening. Yeah, it's also why, again, you know, you have these movements that start at, let's just call it grassroots, right? You have grassroots level stuff that begin to happen. And at some point, the scale of that grassroots movement in finance becomes difficult to ignore. So, you know, you have things like, you know, the Robin Hood chain, really moving volume. And so what does that mean? That means ultimately in in Tradfai spaces, they're paying real attention to this stuff.

They're paying real attention to hyperliquid. They're paying real attention to spaces where people are going for, let's call it, you know, degenerate type of activity. I mean, heck, a couple months ago, Charles Schwab announced prediction markets associated with, you know, movements in the stock market. That's just a beginning little just nugget that they're going to offer clients to bring, you know, the next generation of investors and traders into their space. This type of stuff with Robin Hood will also be the case. prediction markets are i mean my goodness prediction markets are everywhere prediction markets are dominating conversations at crypto exchanges at platform every platform you can think of it's all people are talking about and why is that because it's extreme additional liquidity extreme additional

deposits, extreme additional, you know, daily activity. And, you know, gambling is addictive. And whether it's prediction markets or gambling, it generates activity. You kind of can't stay away from it. It's no different than if you start letting your 12-year-old play PlayStation 5. If he starts, he's not going to go backwards in the amount of time that he wants to spend on it. You're going to have to rain that in. Playstations? What? No, PlayStation 5.

I'm on the number 5. You got to move from the PS2 to the PS5, Scott. March Madden, college. And PS5 Pro. You got to have a PS5 Pro. Very important. All right, very important. Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's a dominant theme right now. And it's the kind of thing that's not going to slow down. you know, the Robin Hood headline that you just brought up is simply a separate version of what you're talking about. When people see activity and opportunity to do a 5x, a 10x, a 7x, or even a 50x, they're going to go and play around with it. They're just going to do it. Now, my question is, if you're at 900 million daily or a billion daily, where is that coming from? How many users are doing that? What are the transactions look like?

Are there 20 million users, 5 million users, 1 million users, 200,000 users that are generating that? What does that look like? We'll see. We'll see if it's sustainable, right? We've seen these movements before, and they generally sort of fizzle out. But I don't know. We'll see.

I mean, you mentioned SWAPE before I've reported this, but you see this news that they added Solana, Avax, and Link trading, and this guy. I didn't know. Is that guy? Yeah. You're a crypto cheese. I don't know what I'm doing. What's he doing?

What are you doing? I don't know what to do with my hands. What are you doing? Put your hands down. I mean, of all things, a lot of Avax and Mike. Yeah, it's, uh, um, now they get there, they get there late. But the reason why they get their late is because, you know, boomer kids and grandkids are like, like, hey, did you see this?

Like, you know, this thing has been, I've made a lot of money on this, dad. What do you think? And then dad goes and talks to his advisor and said, hey, what do you guys, what do you guys think about this thing? Like, I keep hearing about it, you know? And they may not admit they heard about it from their kid, but they're, they'll say, well, I heard it about it on Bloomberg or something like that. And you hear that enough in those organizations.

And you're like, all right, let's have these assets because people want them. and we'll get additional liquidity from it. Like that kind of move is simply, hey, you know what, we've done the research and a good portion of our best customers have, you know, $4 million on Coinbase. We'd rather them have it here at Schwab. So how do we go get half of that? How do we steal that from Coinbase?

And that's what platform slash wealth management slash traditional financial wars are about. It's all about assets under management. How do you go get the actual capital? And so that's the reason why they do things like that. You see headlines like that. So I just found out that Eric

Paltchutis is running late in his ass. Oh, he's here. It's here. He's running late. You're here. You know what? I think that's a commentary. You know, he always talks about his morning run, right? So if he's running late, how fast is Eric Belshutus? In the first place,

One has to wonder. You know what I mean? You know, one has to wonder. I get a lot of mixed flack for that morning jog views. But the reason I do that, by the way, listen to this thesis. A, I'm going to come out with a coffee table book called Morning Jog Views. When you go out as a photographer to take pictures of stuff, you're usually going to a place other photographers or you're walking around and hoping something cool happens.

Yeah. But if you jog long distances all the time, the odds of seeing something cool or interesting that you want to, they go, you're just, and you grab your phone, you can take a picture. So like joggers should be the best photographers on planet Earth, given how much they're just looking at stuff all over the place. And I jog all into like the more shady parts of Philly, the nice parts. I go all over town. And so.

He's like raties. So I put it on Twitter. So one day I'll just have all the tweets stored so that I can just like go into sports for morning jog views and make a coffee tale book. Scott, did you not, that was a very serious. serious answer to a not serious question. Did you not tell Eric that this is a pretty off the hinge podcast? Is he not aware of this? Is he unaware? By the way, thanks for turning Bloomberg TV on in the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I said about 15 minutes earlier, I said, I really only do this on Tuesdays because I want to

seem smarter, right? I know. I'm going to dumb down. And you're going back to Bravo. I got live. I got Eric running through Philly. There we go. That's, yeah. I know. I know. There he is. Yeah, my sweatpants aren't as dorky, but it's close. But this wasn't closely at the time. Those are really, like, weird outfit. But yeah, anyway. Wait, we're all the way up the steps in this one?

No, it's not even the whole thing. What is that? I don't know. We're off the rails here. Eric, so I was about to ask Andrew to pretend to be you. And talk about your book, which I, oh, man, I think I'd just wait. No, I got it. Wait.

Okay. First we're going to start here, and then we'll get to your book. Great to have you. You know what I hate? Jockey. I don't run. Wow, that's fresh off the grill there. Good job. I don't like it. 10 minutes ago. We do things here. Hard to believe Ibit is beating Voo since inception, but it's true, although it's close.

And to be fair, Ibit's path that 70% looks like the El Toro roller coaster at Great Adventure. When I first saw that, I thought El Toro Loco, the monster truck, because I went to Monster Jam with my kid. Yeah, I mean, I bet we were talking about it at the top of the show. I mean, it's just an unstoppable wrecking ball of an ETF machine. Three billion last week. And we were talking about how all the inflows are BlackRock right now. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, if you look, the other ones are proportionally punching within their weight. Black, the I bit's just so much bigger. But I think like four or five of them took in money last week. Yeah. That's a good sign. That means it's more grassroots. Because I bit sometimes could be a couple big investors or some kind of rotation or model.

But if you see all of them taking money, do you know like, okay, people are into Bitcoin right now. Yeah. A great question to ask you, and I don't know if you have enough juice to know what these numbers are. But how much of that $3 million, say, last week or the meaningful number in the past couple weeks is cold storage movement into into ETF shares because it just seems to me $3 billion in the last week of August

is almost that's not a normal number. That's not what happened last year in August. You know what I mean? I can answer that question pretty easily because so last week we'll call that ending the 28th. Bitcoin was up 50 bibs.

So yeah, potentially some of it was people coming over because the price didn't move that much. The week before, though, the price was up 22%. And obviously, if people just switch from Bitcoin to Ibit, that's a non-price movement move. Like, it wouldn't move the price. You're just basically switching the way you own Bitcoin. You're not buying new one.

So I just think the price is where you'll find the answer to that question. But I think when I talk to Robbie Mitch Nick at BlackRock and Isabelle Leo in Bloomberg News, was a good story on it. I think we're looking at maybe like only a few percent of the flows are going to be the switcher. Twitch-Ritcher people. But that's still a decent amount. I think Black Rock had done something like $5 billion. They also dropped the limit, right, from like $25 million to a million or something.

No, no, no. They had done $5 billion of what they call incline conversions. $5 billion is a good number. I'm just saying they had recently dropped the threshold to do it so to make it easier in that. Yes. So I think, yeah, there's probably, if I had to, if you gunned ahead, I would say maybe 2%, 3% of BlackRock's influence. are from that. But that's a pretty good number because it sees a lot of inflows. You know, it's a big number still. But I think that number could grow over time. We'll see.

I think if you are somebody who uses Bitcoin for the censorship resistance, you cannot do this. You have to stay on the network. But if you're just using it for the debasement resistance, the ETF's a very compelling way to store your money versus even a wallet at this point. So I think that's where they're might getting some people. But the diehard Bitcoiners, I just don't see them doing this, especially if they are censorship people who want no part of that. And I'll say censorship resistance is a big attribute of Bitcoin and a big advantage. But it's not that in vogue right now because the government's kind of into it. That could change.

And obviously in other countries, that's an important feature. So right now I think the ETF is even more compelling. But if censorship resistance is an important feature in the future, because maybe they're like, I don't know, somebody wins the presidency and they're looking to like tax unrealized gains or confiscate stocks from people. You know, something maybe similar to like a socialist country, people might go back into actual raw Bitcoin, you know, because that would be more powerful. But right now the debasement seems to be the big story and the ETF covers that for you.

It's just amazing to me that like, always the debasement trade narrative never changed, but the price did. Yeah. Debasement trade wasn't a thing when. Bitcoin with 65, even though we were hearing about it. But now at 80, who, the basement trade. Well, I think, I think, uh, only based on price.

That went to set stepping into the market. That went well. Like, that didn't take much. I honestly thought the government wouldn't come in and do anything for, uh, until things got pretty bad, although I do think they'll always step in at this point. I just thought it'd have to be like worse. The bond yields only went up a little and he's like, we're buying bonds. And all of a sudden it reminded people that the government like,

is going to just make the market be like how they want it to be. So it was like it was the sensitivity to how quickly he jumped in that reminded people that this, like again, Linaldon, it's the greatest phrase. It might be the greatest phrase of the last couple years that I've heard is nothing stops his train. Like it's apolitical. It doesn't matter who's an office. And it's probably going to be like the number one issue that we watch in our lifetimes going forward. And the reason it's apolitical is the voters aren't going to ever do anything about it. Like, no one's going to vote to raise their taxes or cut their benefits.

And so if you do that as a politician, you're gone. Therefore, it's like a, it can't ever stop. Well, and boomers have learned that lesson, by the way. Boomer investors have learned that lesson. I just, I stop. They just keep shrugging everything off. Like I replied to a post yesterday about something about Iran. And I'm like, boomers beat bombs nowadays.

Like you can bomb anybody. It doesn't mean, okay, oh, the market's down one and a half percent. You've got to put more money in somehow. What one is right? Did you know that? Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, ETFs facilitate that. I haven't looked it up how long you've been on the ETF beat at Bloomberg.

But if you got there early, man, what a ride it's been, right? And it's not slowing down. I'd be interested in a longer form conversation about what that's looked like, given the pace and speed at which ETFs have effectively taken over the narrative. the entire narrative associated with capital markets, right? Yeah, I mean, look, the underlying still has to be desirable. That's the dog food. ETS are just the best dog food bowl ever created. But the dog food has to be edible.

And so that's why when the Bitcoin became, I mean, when ETS became the whole narrative for Bitcoin, I was a little skittish. I get it. It's a really big deal. But at the end of the day, you have to focus on the food. And why is Bitcoin valuable? It's censorship resistant and debasement. resistant. The dog food bowl is helpful, but it's not the thing. And I think with anything,

US stocks will have to be desirable. But I will say that what ETFs have done is they have made everything trade like an equity. So people love the way equities trade. Bonds are a pain in the butt. Oil futures are pain in the butt. Everything's a pain in the butt except for equities. And now ETFs have put everything into an equity format. But not only that, they come in a diversified basket and they're basically free and they're tax efficient. So they're like four or five evolutionary steps beyond the mutual fund. And in some cases, beyond a single stock because you get the whole basket. Because like let's say a new prime minister takes over in Brazil, they're business friendly.

You want to own that. Like are you going to research Brazil stocks? These are just by EWZ, be done with it. And this has become like ETFs or like even though they're passive, they're like a new way to be active and like run your whole portfolio very easily from your own desktop. They're, you know, just a great tech. technology and I was not surprised when they were a huge hit. And the thing is, ETF investors are the smart money in my opinion because their ETFs don't pay anybody off

to put your money in them like mutual funds did for 50 years. So if you use an ETF, you had to like find your way through people trying to sell you more expensive stuff and then you found this ETF and you're using it on your own. Well, you're probably like a pretty wise investor. So if you bought Bitcoin, you're probably like, yeah, I get it's volatile. It's 3% of my account. And that's why a lot of the money didn't come out as people predicted. We predicted it would stick. And I think that's part of the reason. ETF investors are smarter. They know about volatility. They kind of know what they're buying. And when we saw the U.S. stock market go down 18% in 2022, equity ETF still took in $400 billion. And so these investors are real like long term oriented for the most part.

There's a wing of ETFs that's pure gambling and trading, but it's a very small section. It gets a lot focus but most of the money is just like you know pretty with it people again not so i say retail but this is not game stop retail this is like really smart advisors and uh with it retail investors first time i've heard bitcoin called dog food well here's where that phrase comes from you know in politics campaign advisors will be like the dog has to want to eat the food in other words we need a good candidate. We cannot turn a bad candidate into like edible dog food. And so the dog has to want to eat the food is like a political consultant phrase. But it works for assets. I mean, listen, connecting politics to dog food makes a lot of sense. That works for me. That's what the metaphor

probably works a little better. Yeah, that that definitely works for me. It's, uh, yeah, your post today about VOO and Ibit is people, that's a, that's a big deal. Like, that's a huge, huge deal. Like, BLO, if I'm not mistaken, I mean, that's effectively the biggest CTF on the planet, isn't it? Yes, easily. It's a $1.1. trillion, I think, at this point. And now, and the S&P is, but the S&P is like the sun, the whole thing rotates. Right, right.

22 trillion benchmark to it in some way, shape, or form. Right. And the S&P's been a kick-ass index. Like, everybody loves it. It seems like it's up 20% a year. The feeling would be, if you, if you. pulled 100 people randomly and you didn't let them use charts this morning, people who follow this space maybe.

And you said, like, what do you think is doing better since 2024? I bid or Voo? I would think like 80% would pick Voo. Right. Yeah. So I think what happens with Bitcoin is like the piling on by the media just gets so rough. And then they start to question its purpose.

It's over. It sucks. Like the sentiment gets so bad and the media piles on that it feels like it's down, you know, well, it was down 50%. And I think what people forget is before the 50% drop, it went up 450% in two years. Yeah. I mean, so you do it 50% that sucks, but you're still up a lot, pretty good amount. Like, that's why I sometimes the Bitcoin people, when that drawdown was happening, I would say to them, look, this was due. You're not going to go up 450% every two years.

Like, that's just impossible. And I said, what if you could take some of that 450% scoop it out and put it in the hole right now and make yourself have more like a Voo path to the 22% annualized since then? And they did not want to do that. They'd rather have the roller coaster. But that's effectively what happened. So if you, like, just took the chart and put, and I blacked over all the lines and just put the starting and the ending, you'd say, okay, that's fine. That's a pretty good deal. But just two paths to the same spot, and one feels more nauseating at times, more euphoric.

And that's just sort of, that's why in the book we wrote, we have a chapter on Bitcoin in a portfolio. We look at all these different scenarios. And for a normal person, 60, 40, it seems like if you are into it, and if you are looking at it, 3% is probably the sweet spot between, I won't hate myself. If it goes down 80%, it won't completely destroy me. portfolio, but if it goes up 50% or 400%, I'm going to feel like I got a good taste. And then you go 5%, it hurts a little more. So 3% seems to be like that fomo to hating myself ratio that's like pretty solid for people

who do want a little bit. And again, this is part of a exhaustive effort to look at the different scenarios of it in a portfolio. But the bitcoins, they're in a different world. Like they might have their whole investment in it or 50%. I'm talking about normal 60, 40 people. I think 3% might be like the toe in the water starting point because of that ball. Talk about the book.

More about the book. Yeah, look, the reason we wrote it is because I was a tourist. I was pulled into Bitcoin as a sort of observer from the outside for many years. But I always respected it because it always came back from drawdowns that were really nasty. that impressed me. And it pissed off the right people. I'm not going to name those names, but it just seemed to irritate the people

that I like to see irritated. I felt like I was almost like spiritually with the movement, even though I didn't even really know much about it. So that's why I kind of like, I think I had open mind at the time. So when Black Rock filed, I got pulled in. So I wrote this book as somebody who was like from the outside and spent 100 hours almost, I was forced to spend 100 hours learning about it,

interacting with the people, going to events. And basically, I've come to a couple conclusions. One, it is underestimated by TradFi. On the flip, crypto underestimates Tradfai. We read about that too. So we read about the two worlds misdiagnosing each other a little bit. But the other thing was the ETFs have solved the intermediary problem. It used to be you would either get charged an arm and a leg to do a trade or somebody might lose your money like FTX. ETFs have solved that. that Bitcoin network has always been the same for 17 years. Like, it's never changed. The intermediaries are where all the crazy stuff happens. And ETFs are now making it safe, cheap, and easy to become

investor. So most people are anchored to some bias from 2017 or something. I said, forget that. Let's take a new look at it. And then you also have to learn about the money. Like, if you don't learn about currency debasement and the money supply and why inflation is a silent tax and how all that you'll never really get Bitcoin. You'll just see it as just like nothing. If you really learn about all this, Bitcoin starts to become one solution. There are other solutions to currency in the basement.

I would say gold is another one. Stocks are actually pretty good, inflation hedge. And I think the rise of socialist politicians are now another solution to this thing you can't see, which is that something is taking my money. I can't see it. and I'm just left with higher prices at the food store. That's why Dave Weissberger's like favorite quote of late is Bitcoin goes to a million,

like the case for Bitcoin going to a million is President AOC. Yeah, probably, yeah, I would say so. Because I think if you get a president at OC, it's very possible they look to, again, they're going to find that printing money is just the easy way to solve all the problems. But they also might try to confiscate stocks. it could get interesting. They might tax unrealized gains. By the way, if you get a president AOC and they tax unrealized gains of stocks, that's where Bitcoin's censorship resistance could be super powerful. You could have really wealthy people wanting to store their value there,

just like you have in emerging markets where people are like, the dictator just takes the money and there's 50% inflation. Well, of course, Bitcoin is a godsend there. Here, it's not as big of a deal. The inflation is not as bad and the censorship resistant isn't as urgent. So, But that's just right now, things change. So it's a good point that Dave makes, I think, there. I just think that the ETF in the book, we talk about the currency debasement. And again, we're pretty honest. Like Barry Vittalts wrote a book called How Not to Invest.

And he really takes a shot at that decline of a dollar chart that Bitcoiners love. How not to invest? But he looks at wages have grown. And like, so we try to, again, we're trying to show everything, give it a fair. shake, we show the S&P 500 real return versus nominal. And we really try to educate people on real returns. Real return is post inflation. So once you factor in inflation, I think normal people understand real returns when they go for their annual review and they get a 3% raise. And in their mind, they're like, yeah, this is really like zero because like everything costs 3% more. That's real

return. So you got real, real raise of zero. And so I think real returns can be like a bucket of cold water for an investor, but a wake-up call to, like, realize you have to manage this. And, like, bonds have, like, zero percent real returns, basically. And so I think it opens up the door to a portfolio to be a little more designed to combat inflation and what it does to things. And so that's ultimately crucial for a normal person. Otherwise, they're going to be, like, you know, like that FT reporter was like, well, my two, my, you know, my back molar tooth is scarce. Why isn't it worth a lot of money? You know, I'm like, Well, I mean, honestly,

There's a lot of molars and a lot of people being born that will have molars in the future. To be fair, that's how a lot of people think. Like, when I talk to my friends and, like, my mom and stuff like that, the two words that come out with crypto and Bitcoin are these are the two words. Scam and gambling. Sure. Yeah. And it's, again, and we also go into the Satoshi story a bit.

I find that we, I did two books on the birth of the ETF and the birth of Vanguard. Both those stories were really interesting because you realize these people were standing on their shoulders of giants. And the idea wasn't like, oh, let me just put this internet coin on the internet, you know, magic coin on the internet. It was somebody who really read up on a lot of things that came before them. And they took the baton and took it to the next level. And it happened to be the right thing at the right time. But a lot came before it. And the lead up to all the things that went into making a truly decentralized network last 17.

years are astonishing. And the engineering feat is, again, the more you look into it, you're like, that is how could they even do this? Like all these computers that don't even know or like each other are able to come to a consensus and keep this network running with no president or person running it. And honestly, that alone is just cool. I almost think, isn't it just cool that something can exist that is not, you can't kill it. And it's just not part of the government. And there's a whole, we have a whole chapter on whether Bitcoin is like American or un-American because somebody said, if you're betting on Bitcoin, you're kind of betting on the decline of America. But then there's another person who said, well, Bitcoin could almost be like an amendment to the Constitution,

like the Second Amendment, you know, protection from your own government for the money printing. And we look back at these founding fathers, like almost all of them were skeptical of like the U.S. government making their own currency. You know, they were very, and like I think there's one quote from Thomas Jefferson that kind of predicts. what happened with basically breaking from the gold standard. So I think the founding fathers would be very into it. This is a very American concept, in my opinion, because it's a decentralized democratic system

that you can't just whimsically like change or debase. And so I think as people get more into it, they'll line up with their values. And it's a technological innovation. And then honestly, I think at the end of the day, you have Bitcoin or gold as ways that are very easy to access to store value. And then we have a whole chapter that compares those two. And then, you know, like I said, we go through step by step of like all the things you need

to know to make a wise decision. Now, we do have some skeptics. We have people who are really into cash flows. The cash flow thing hangs up a lot of people. They're like, well, it doesn't have cash flows. That's the Buffett-Bowel problem. And also, anybody with the CFA, it's just like they can't get their head around and it doesn't have cash flows.

And so we kind of try to go into how there are other psychological assets out there, not everything has cash flows that has value. So there's a lot of, I mean, I can't think of anything out there that's like been debated on Twitter or otherwise that we didn't like break down and discuss and really provide color on so that you could walk away from this and not have future regret. And you can be like, I, you know, I bought it with all this knowledge or I didn't buy it with all this knowledge. And then wherever it goes, you can like sleep at night. Listen, an allocation of two to five percent, I think is going to be sort of the standard. I mean, the wealth management organizations like Morgan Stanley and others have gotten quite comfortable there. I mean, it's not Rick Edelman and saying you maybe show them 40 percent that that may be a bit extreme.

But being in that space tracks and will keep people comfortable while also giving them, you know, access to all the narrative. that your book talks about. By the way, we interviewed Rick Edelman. He was one of the 35 people we interviewed. You know where he gets to 40%? I said, that seems high, Rick. And you know his basis for that is really interesting. He thinks that you're alive in the year 2030.

I forget the exact step. But if you're basically, if you make it to 2030, your chances of living to 100 go up dramatically. Like the more time marches on, the longer lifespans will get. And all the advisor models are built for people dying in their 70s and 80s. 80s. Sure. So there could be an extra 20 or 30 years.

And so you need growthier things. Bonds and stocks will not fund that retirement. That is an interesting answer. I did not know that. I thought he was just. So that's, again, there's so much food for thought. That's why this is a, it's weird to be that people blow this off. But once you get into this whole thing, and Bitcoin itself is, you know, interesting,

but what it exposes and what it sends you into or just some fascinating topics, But that's Rick's premise for the 30, 40%. But Rick also is interesting that he built, he's like kind of one of the king of the RIA movement. Of course, yeah. He's not just some fly-by-night like small RRA. He is a big deal. I went to conference last in Dallas.

And there's, these are really good, like, these are smart advice in the room. And they're all. Well, those are the people that Bitwise spend lots of time. time with like 90. Matt Hogan's another one. He came from the Tradfai world. He speaks fluent boomer. And so we have a whole chapter

called suit coiners. Sue pointers are people who can speak institutional, who understand Bitcoin and wear a suit per se. But they speak boomer language. And these suit coiners are, in my opinion, like it's really

the next wave of Bitcoin is the suit pointers. Now, we also go into how OGs are somewhat skeptical. Like there's some OGs who were like, this isn't the Bitcoin I bought. Yeah. And it's a little like, you know,

Seattle Seensters pissed off when Nirvana signed to a major label. You know, this isn't my band anymore. Okay, fine. But good things, go mainstream. You know,

what do you want? You were early in a good band. You should be like, hey, yeah, I was onto them early. It's cool. That's what's happening. So the suit coiner's is part of the story.

But the ability to speak in like sharp ratio and Sortino ratio and shareholder value is crucial because some of the Bitcoiners, come on off a little, they come on a little strong. Thank you. But Matt Hogan, Rick Edelman, they speak more in that sort of like fluent institutional language

that is really important. It's underrated part of all this. So what I'm taking from this podcast, Scott, is that President AOC is political dog food. That's really the headline there. If you want to change the headline for the Belchunis says political dog food. Please don't do that. I get my. AOC is dog food.

I get my wrist left enough. I please, yeah. But I will say, you know, I just think it's, you know, the rise of socialist politicians. Sure. You can't ignore it. The last thing you should do is ignore it, right? You can't ignore it or say it's foolish. You know, hey, we can play a bunch of clips from 2015-16 saying, oh, Trump's never going to be president.

Like, you're crazy. Yeah. So you can't ignore it, right? You can't ignore it. And again, if you tell people, I'm going to give you a lot of stuff. You're going to be richer. Like, it's a powerful message. I think that the Bitcoiners should spend time trying to talk to the people who are voting the socialist politicians in because Bitcoin is a similar, is a private market solution to this problem.

Whereas the government solutions tend to not work all that well. And so Art Laffer, who we interviewed, talked about how sometimes when the governments kind of screw up, like they did with breaking from the gold standard and probably arguably putting too much money into the system the private sector comes up with solutions so bitcoin is a private sector solution and to a government problem so you might say well the government isn't going to solve a government problem because the government created the problem you want a private sector solution and that's what bitcoin is but to me they both speak to the affordability silent tax of inflation issue and so i just think that's a really interesting target market that bitcoiners should be looking at

Yeah. Perfect. N-04. Andrew, I'm going to keep you for two minutes. I'm going to let Eric go. Eric, thank you, sir. Appreciate you showing up.

Enjoy your jog. Thank you. When can we get the book? Where do we get the book? Thanks for asking about it. All right, take care. Where do we get it? Where do we get it?

Oh, probably like you'll get an advanced copy like in a month or two. And it comes out in November 1st. What early dog food? Do I not get an advanced copy? No, I pointed to you. Harris is dog. I say, do. both of you. It was a split shot you.

Okay. Nobody knows what direction anybody's in. Thank you. Hold, let me speak, let me speak Philly and say you. Use. Use. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. All right. You get the book. Perfect. All right. Thanks, Eric. Oh, shoot. I didn't mean to do that.

He disappeared. Then he disappeared at the exact same time is weird. I just want to do this real quick before you know, before we go here at 10. Yeah, now, there's just a real quick narrative, right? So our tools and strategies work across basically everything now. You know, it's funny. I've been watching, again, some old hedge fund, you know,

headlines and all that stuff. And I'm reminded, you know, if you watch a show, if you watch the show billions, or if you watch anything or read anything having to do with hedge funds and their ability to help perform, you know, they always are talking about, each quarter or each month. Are they going to have a down month or a down quarter? And what that means for a retail investor is hedge funds and global investment banks and everybody in the market that's

big have been using the kind of tools that we've created and given access to for retail folks for a very, very long time. Right. Hedge funds aren't long-term investors. That's not what they do. They trade, they trade, they trade, they trade. And our ability to put those tools in your hands is just an absolute game changer. So if you want to use those tools in qualified accounts like IRAs and trade like crazy with our tools and make a ton of money and not have to deal with taxes, go ahead. If you want to use it in unqualified accounts and be more strategic, intelligently accumulate, dollar cost average or tax loss harvest we do all of those things too yeah so it is you know we are

growing in ways that are hard to describe we've gone from about 2,000 users maybe 14 months ago to over 40,000 now as of about yesterday really really really fast growth because people are getting very very comfortable with saying yes put these on top of my account, take my hands off. When I have questions, I'll call your team, speak to Austin or Luca or Josh or a bunch of people at our firm and tee them up, make them ready to go. Just simplicity, but also the type of things where emotions are completely removed from the process. So, extraordinary work we're doing. We love it. We'll continue to grow and expand and you'll hear more and more and more about it. Maybe someday we'll have a commercial or two on the old Bloomberg.

Maybe why Scott. No, he was drunk. Arch Public Trading Automation. Over now. Yeah, guys, check down in the description, click audit. Andrew, dude, you did really well covering the gentleman and Eric for a really long time. Thank you. Thank you.

I appreciate it. I don't know if you know this, but I've covered for you a few times. There's been universal praise, all right? There's been universal praise to those moments. Hash rules, everything, Andrew. Let's get out of here. See you. That's super done.

At least we can quote Seinfeld. Bye.