The Wolf Of All Streets - Crypto Rallies After Wild Weekend! What’s Next? #CryptoTownHall

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

This episode of Crypto Town Hall dives into Bitcoin's volatile price action over the weekend, market instability, and broader macroeconomics. The panel discusses the role of speculation in crypto and traditional finance, ongoing liquidity issues, impacts of upcoming Federal Reserve decisions, and institutional buying in both Bitcoin and Ethereum. The event centers around understanding current market sentiment, analyzing consumer and investor behavior, and exploring the prospects for crypto as a savings or wealth-building tool, especially amid growing desperation and uncertainty.

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Crypto Town Hall. Hopefully you can all hear me. We're in the glitch and I'm on Bluetooth here. So hopefully all is well. We've got crypto rallies after Wild Weekend. What is next? Well, we've got Bitcoin trading about 90,400. We had a massive dip and then a meal rip, of course, on a Sunday when liquidity was low. Somebody can make a lot of money. It's still just absolutely. absolutely baffles my mind when you see something like price going down three or four thousand dollars immediately back up and then hire all in a matter of three or four hours and you and get the tweets about three or four hundred or five hundred million dollars in liquidations I don't understand and how people are sitting there on high leverage when coins trading in a range hasn't done anything convincing literally in months and just getting liquidated on a move where price goes back and forth within a matter of an hour. But it seems that people are very bored and very desperate and looking for ways to gamble. I would love to go to the pan. Talk about, I guess, price action, what was happening in the weekend and what's going on right now.

Anybody thoughts? Go ahead. Raise your hands. I'm kind of driving here while hosting. So jump on in. I mean, I think you're right on the gambling. I've obviously seen a bunch of that over the last months, and it's where a lot of things are pushing overall.

So I think it's also just goes to the general instability. Everyone's feeling across the board on markets right now and really not what's going to happen. Obviously, it's Fed Week. Everyone is super excited for FOMC meetings. We're going to get a 25 basis point cut and watch them continue to ride the middle of the road and everyone continue to be kind of like,

what the fuck's going to happen next? Bloomberg has it at 99% Mike McLean said of a cut this week in the market 94% and I think even CME FAC watch was 89%. So we're getting it cut. The question is that this is that even relevant, especially when it's so high No, I think it, when you've got 94% of people calling it, I think that's the definition

of then basically on it. And there's no way that they I think over perform or you know, go deeper on that and cut the full 50. Obviously, Moran is going to dissent from the 25 basis point and say we should have done 50, but

I'm guessing he's the only one given, again, like all the jobs data, all GDP data, all the data is so fucking mixed, and so they're just, I think, going to keep doing that. It's not really the cut the math. It's

the forward guidance and whether or not they announce RMPs, which would functionally be very akin to QE where the Fed's bank reserves and then injecting those into the banking system by buying in this case bills. So QE normally is long-end, but this would be Treasury bills, which would be much akin to like outright debt monetization. The fact that banks are, of course, can create print dollars. They're the big buyers of Treasury bills versus pension funds. funds and investments funds, which are not depository, they don't the long end.

So you already have kind of a debtization dynamic going on, right? This is what Michael Hall called yield curve control, not yield curve control, I think. And this would be even in that vein. Plus, it would be a liquidity in direction. I don't think it would be very large, but I do think that is the other key thing to watch. the market stress, obviously, this is, they need to do something when even, you know, the Fed officials themselves are basically going out and arguing, whether it's the former Soma manager, or current Soma Manager, Fed Chair, Lisa, actually, who is the governor in charge of financial stability. They're all warning about it. So I think it's highly likely that you see those arms announced, which, would be, again, kind of functionally akin to QE, where bank reserve creation would obviously be starting back up.

What is this all for crypto, I guess, you know, to shift it? So we clearly know that we're 25 basis cut point. We clearly know that it would be, as you said, that's more important than the actual cut itself. I don't know if it's going to be with the pal sneezes or whether he looks up or down or what color tie he's wearing, that people are going to use to judge it. But do you think that Bitcoin is actually on any of this right now? People obviously the argument that forward-looking liquidity is going to be what drives Bitcoin. But I would make the argument based on what we've seen with gold, silver, and stocks that Bitcoin has been uncorrelated for a very long time right now.

And it's not trading alongside any of these. So it's hard to make the argument. Bitcoin is reacting to this if you're making. the argument that everything else is. I think I would argue that it is. It leads for sure. And if you go back to kind of that double around 120, whatever, like, 23 or whatever it was, that was right before, like literally like two weeks before bank reserve started to really decline.

And kind of fed net liquidity to bring that metric back. started to decline. So yeah, no, I think that Bitcoin has been obviously much weaker due to the fact that these liquidity stresses have been holding for the past, I don't know, three months, four months. Right. But then why is everything else up? I guess the question. I mean, you see what's happening with silver gold. I guess that actually makes sense. But stocks are what, 1% off the all time high? Two percent? Yeah. Stocks. What is it leading? What Bitcoin leading? Yeah. Like, and how long of a lag is there if yeah i don't know i personally i'm bullish though i would be but to put it very simply i would

be these depths on bitcoin i'm hoping we get a debt same same but yeah we're still you know we're still unwinding the dat bubble in in crypto and in bitcoin and that's why it's been trading much lower than the rest of the market right we we kind of know that yes we thought bitcoin was going to be this asymmetric hedge to to to you know geopolitical risk globally. It's not. It's still kind of trades like a big tech stock and a big tech stock that had the massive influx of capital over the summer. Unwinding in an interesting way.

And all coin market, the same thing, right? And some of the all coins that just aren't coming back ever, you know, we're kind of seeing blowups. Also the kind of major liquidity event that happened. a little over a month or a month and a half ago where all these alts just took that massive dip, the market that cleaned a lot of people out and they're kind of like, I might go trade in other places, right? And then you've got markets kind of sucking the retail wind out of the meme coin market and I was some of the smaller all coin market. And so you've just seen a lot of

capital in other places currently that was in the cryptocurrency and all coin market. You're kind of seeing Bitcoin even kind of trade down this morning when the market opened. It's really kind of moving towards that of, hey, the ETFs have inflows, they have outflows, get traded on business hours and trading hours. So not sure what it all means. I mean, the macro environment as well, you know, you look at a report came out from Redfin, I think it was like a week or two ago. Like 15% of the homes, you know, were delisted in September.

were at risk of selling out a loss, 70% of the homes listed in September were on the market for 60 days or longer. You know, basically people are taking their homes off the market at the fastest rate in 10 years. There's just not as much the codity out there as I think people would like to believe. Even if it is out there, the prices for everything are wildly out of control that it's hard for people to even justify their brains haven't justified yet that i go pay three hundred and eighty dollars for a christmas tree right or i got to go pay you know like 20 30 percent higher than what i thought for a meal um you know for a family and those things start to add up i think people are still we're not we're not in a place yet where we had this like major rally where people can really wrap their

mind around like this is a new environment that we're living in. Talk to any mortgage banker out there at some of these big banks. They kind of thought three months ago that next year was going to be a big year for them. And now they're kind of pulling back saying like, man, it's going to kind of slog through these high rates for a long time. So not a lot out there to be rosy and happy about. Again, this could be buying opportunities for some of these all coins that are really going to eventually come back in a big way. you pick the right ones and then obviously you should always be slamming as much as humanly possible in the bitcoin yeah and also credit revolving credit that came out friday growing at a 5% annual rate

so the debt-based consumer spending i think that that's really a great point like you know i always point out in the bitcoin spaces we are trying to you know young people to understand Bitcoin as savings technology and, you know, currency debasement, all this stuff, right? But like, they have no money. They're working two, three jobs with a side hustle, right, living paycheck to paycheck. Like, they have no money to put into Bitcoin. I'd also point out in Japan with yields rising and the potential kind of trade issue, that that's a liquidity dynamic in the very large sense, maybe not specific.

to the U.S., but kind of overall it would also come to that. Something to add on the point with a massive innovation events is the amount of Bitcoin on the or the BTC exchange reserves. This going down, down, ending down for a significant amount of time. And we also looked at this and saying, well, this is now institution adoption and an end. But the fact that all that spot has been taken and absorbed,

It means that we have a very unstable BTC price on the short term. Because at this stage now, it's just the big liquidation or the big leverage guys fighting each other. And then over the weekend with a low liquidity, that's the move. So I think the big stability for BTC, if you want to be bullish, you know, shorter. Let's take it from a trade appointment, just bully short term. You almost want to see that stable. And then you want to see the lower. like the four hour and maybe even then start trending upwards before you can really start

thinking moving up weekly time frame but hidden bullish divergence the underlying signals is there for rally maybe just maybe minimum to a hundred you know as a baseline breakthrough then the sky's the limit again so it's there but it's just not ready and I think maybe the timing factor everybody's in such a hurry to get the low in everybody such a hurry to get the santa and so forth that might be undermining price at the moment for us do you guys still here i thought i got this cat did so i'm not sure having trouble here too can you hear me scott can you guys hear me I can hear you, Dave. Well, look, you know, it's funny.

We're talking this morning about where consensus is. And, you know, it feels like the consensus in the crypto world is dismal, which to me is actually a good thing. You know, remember, every one of the indicators Joe was talking about are like indicators, right? You know, we know we had a couple of months where liquidity was being subsidized. the system or at least evaporating in the system and nothing wasn't coming back in and so that's going to change the next month or so and you know we'll see how that goes i mean the truth is that you know it is it is there is some very real issues in the economy and so those very real issues are going to force policy responses and we're trying to anticipate in a

market what the policy responses will be, and I'll let's leave it there. I'm going to be mobile, so I'm probably going to be doing mostly listening, but, you know, I think that you always have to be looking as markets anticipations as opposed to looking backwards, and that's really the main point here. David, I think some of those are lagging. I don't think the market bid-taking retail capital is lagging. I think that's still increasing rapidly. We're seeing volumes on polymarking calculator growing day in and day out. So that's a lot of that capital over there. You can now bet in a short-term fashion, you know, even on the price of Bitcoin, other cryptocurrencies there. So that is pulling some capital currently. And I wouldn't

say that the, like the whole market is a lagging indicator either with regards to, you know, basically sentiment and consumer sentiment thinking especially in young people you know if you live in California or you live in some of these markets you know even like Colorado, Boulder, Austin, some of the prices

of these homes that you got to you have to you know down it's like these kids are just like I'm never going to own a home right? I'm never going to be able to run my own business and I think yes you're still going to have

outliers that smash through those barriers because, you know, it's America, and that's what we do. But on the average, you are going to see a lot of people just kind of saying opt out in some sort of way. I don't have the answer, but, you know, I definitely think that people are kind of saying themselves, you know, what's the, you know, how do I really get ahead? And that's why I think you've seen a lot of it turn into, like, just gambling. They're like, might as well just try and do anything I can.

because it's so like the time value like we need to go teach that again you know back in like the schools and high schools of just you know hey you can be a millionaire if you put away 500 bucks a month you just got to be patient um but we're i think it's just a really wonky spot for this kind of younger generation to be saving and you're feeling the sentiment the market There is definitely a massive shortcoming in financial literacy, but also going back to what I think Robert was saying. I mean, I think there's interesting where the actual lack of wealth and money in millennials and Gen Z is not as bad as it feels when you actually look at the data.

They're not actually doing that bad. Obviously, you can talk about inflation numbers and where money gets spent. it gets into a complex thing. But I think the bigger problem in that, right, is it's the feeling around it. And it's not just that there's a lack of financial literacy. It's that people are disillusioned about the future and burn the fuck out. And so they don't want to save $500 or $800 or something so that it nicely compares in an S&P and grows millionaires.

Because they're pretty fucking sure they're never going to get social. security and they're never going to own a house and stuff and so they rather just go like buy zero-day options uh you know yolo on fucking vanduel i mean i think that you know scott and i were making the point about the rise of calci and fiction markets but you just made the one i was going to respond this morning the fact that zero day options are the fastest growing and maybe the largest product you know in U.S. financial markets today is a, and it's been that way for over a year, is a sign of desperation, I think, from a lot of people.

Everybody's looking for lottery. Everybody's looking for an easy way out because, frankly, you know, the standard work hard, save money, build, you know, build wealth is out of reach for a lot of people. And that is, that's the kind of pathology that is end of empire, not, not, you know, healthy. And we definitely are in that world. I mean, people can wave their own around it and say whatever they want.

But that does seem to be the case. Now, is that investable? Does it matter? Is it a change in the next six months or a year? Probably not. In five, ten years, when people look back, they'll say, ah, well, we should have known that that was what was going on.

Yeah, the unfortunate reality, at least, and I don't know the all stuff, but at least with like, you know, 30% Kager, that, that, you know, you tell someone in Tradfai that, you know, you guarantee them a 30% Kager, they'll, they'll, you know, it'll blow their mind. But for the average young person where, you know, the income needed to qualify house tripled, right, in the span of five years, like in my case, it, you know, I got to admit it's kind of hard for me sometimes. not put it into some meme coin or zero day option, you know, just five grand from zero day and hope I hit a bit. Like it's hard for me to save in Bitcoin. And I know this stuff, right? I spend all day in macro land and monetary policy. It's hard even for me because just how much the, you know, our life, the middle class livelihood ripped away from the way. from us, you know, in terms of the move in asset prices.

I think I'm back, but only as a speaker. So I missed a lot of that conversation, unfortunately, but I was discussing this morning, and you guys can tell me if I'm being redundant to anything that was just said. But to your point, Robert, of what you just said. And there's been something I've been thinking about a lot, which is that rampant speculation is not generally a sign of healthy economy or of happy people, right? And now it's like with predictive markets and crypto before and even GameStop and options and Robin had before that, we've basically just handed the speculators like nuclear weapons to destroy themselves. Well, but the point you missed thought was that, which I didn't get to say this morning, is that zero-day options, particularly in the S&P, are so damn dealer that they've been handed these weapons of mass destruction well over a year ago. And they've been using crazy. Yeah, but the average person who's using market or gambling on meme coins is not using zero-day options, I don't think.

Well, contrary. I mean, these are the biggest, it's the biggest volume product for the V- accounts at Charles Schwab and all the other online brokerages. I mean, they actually bought quite a few of them. There's, you know, Ameritrade, E-Trade, whatever. That's Morgan Stanley. But, you know, it is a huge product. And it is a pure gambling product.

Just from my anecdotal, like, personal experience, the people I know, the young people I know that are doing meme coins and prediction markets and all that, also doing zero-day options on the Mac 7. Yeah, you're also literally betting against the same fucking guys, right? Like, Colchie has with Siskihanah and fucking Citadel to the other side of the sports gambling markets, right? So literally you're betting your zero-day options on the S&P against the same guys you're betting your fucking Raiders game against. That is true.

Yeah, I mean. It is absolutely true. But historically also just like beyond that, Dave, the point I was making this morning and that Robert just as I came back on, is that the desperation to speculate because there's no other way to survive, that has happened many times in history and it's usually not before positive events. Oh, no, there's no doubt. But my point is that the signs have been here and, you know, maybe they're excelled.

rating now? I can't really tell. Look, all this boils down to is a very simple thing, and I see Gary is here, and I quoted you this morning, Gary, is to say that I don't see any way out of an acceleration in the, quote, extend to and pretend policy, and the run it hot, do the best you can as we get into next year to try to turbocharge growth at any cost. regardless of the biologies that they might actually create. I mean, to me, it seems bound in the same thing. Do you agree? Especially since I quoted you.

Yeah. Yeah, man. I just don't know what they're waiting for. I was listening to Jim Wynn and he's still, you know, encouraging much lower prices. I can't build a case against them. I don't think there is any organic crypto buyers. No, there's no pat of crypto buyers.

That's not how bottoms work. Cryptos out. Bottoms work when everyone is time-based and otherwise capitulation. I mean, keep in mind something, and I said this this morning, and I'll say it on this to... People just feel a warning. So, Wynn is, to go to grass, Gary, you're living in a beautiful place. Down here in Florida is gorgeous today.

Look at the sun and the sand and the beach. It's all good. I'll leave you with one thing about Wynn, which is, you know, his notion that he could be long-term bullish about Bitcoin and believe the four-year cycle demands, you know, this response. at least he's semi-intellectually he believes that the amplitude of the move you know are still going to be big all these other people who say that it's a small move amplitude and this this last bull run there's no way you can get to higher bitcoin prices you know whatever with this sort of size moves just think about it that way you just can't

except right yeah who who referring to i missed all the k all the kowels but but win is one of them who says well a long-term bullet but i think it's going to drop you know 70 percent but it didn't rise aren't we quoting the guy who made some money on a game coin that lost a billion dollars on a poor leverage trade has been directionally wrong 90 percent of the time and just happens to be at this moment like what how he's not right is it like i'm just saying like when when he's James Wynn become like the fucking Warren Buffer Oracle of Twitter. It's, I mean, I don't even understand how, and he is constantly, but how is he a topic of conversation? I don't know, because I don't follow it, but is he an expert on anything?

Like, where's the credentials? Is the credentials I lost a billion, so I paid my entrance fee, and now everybody gets to listen to me to be bearish? Yeah, sometimes, you know, that's what you. you pivot to, but I wasn't trying, look, I think there's a lot of KOLs out there that are speaking about markets. All I was trying to show was it, the market, there was 150 people in the room, okay, there's nobody there, people are worn out. I mean, this is, look, and there's a lot going on. I mean, we have an event outside of government control, you know, good. There's just a lot going on that needs to get settled and we're going into the end of

the year and nothing happened until mid-January. So I think we're going to do this. Look, if I had enough Bitcoin, I'd be moving this market around to you look at a sailor picking up 10,000 Bitcoin in the 90s. That's going to be a good purchase. Okay. Like, wow, I wish I'd pick up 10,000 Bitcoin right now. That would be so hard for 20 years. Unbelievable. I think that's what I was trying to say, Dave. I was just, it's the same old news. Over and we're just grunt, like, the thing is,

if y'all weren't scheduled for 10-15, there's really not much to talk. But it's good to see all you guys. We're going to get rich. We just might have a few headaches in between there. And concerns, but I don't see. how holding on to this asset like nothing has changed for me at all i just got more excited to buy and whatever well actually at these prices it's kind of encouraging me to okay let me go

let me do some work create more fiat so i can put it into 90 000 bitcoin because i think you're going to build about 88 000 bitcoin again that's going to happen to it i i I guarantee it's going to happen. I told you that in May. I didn't expect to be right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're still, do you still have your bid there?

No. I filled. I felt the first, that first hit of 88, I, I, I, yeah, I waited six months, seven months. But, yeah, I got it. I was a lot higher just for the record. I'm not, because I also was a dollar cost average in, you know, $1.15, 110. then but my actual like bids that i had kind of heavily from pro may or 88 yeah mark you can go ahead the perspective i have is here at the uh bitcoin mina conference and catching up with a few that one inside is still the old how early we are unfortunately guys i know that as we spin the wheel on

point saying that's not the one we always want to hear but we say that right before it goes parabolic that's that's what i'm saying is we think it should be going higher we understand the system is going to continue to debate and that this thing uh stands out as one of only viable safety technologies available pristine outside the system and are still too early. Sometimes we're too close. The one thing I like about coming here is you meet some very smart, studied people.

And it's good to have another come to Jesus about why are we doing this? Tell me the numbers. Has a complete. TCP IP. Okay, what's the adoption? Oh, my God, we're so early. Which means this thing

got knocked around 15,000 you know 20% bid air spreads within a week not bad as spreads but range within a that's just part and parcel you can't put this in normie equity

chart language this is a different so that's what I got here besides you know sailors just a crazy I have no idea how he keeps the schedule where to get the billion do we know

Anyone? I mean, you'll buy, right? 90,000, 10,000 something, Bitcoin. And it was just under a billion dollars. I mean, we've seen him kind of putting along, you know, with 50 million, 150 million here. By the way, not small numbers. I'm being sarcastic. But then every once a while, he just spikes one of these billions and you just. Yeah, dude. Like his last few purchases, I was worried because I'm like, hey, you seem to be like slowing down here. This was. 10,000. I like it, dude, is awesome. And I think Bitmine bought 600 and something million in the east last week. So, Sailor's not the only buyer in the market. How comfortable do you think he is right now compared to Sailor? You mean, as far as like on the risk side? I mean, I think he's very happy to be buying cheaper since he can.

The whole trade, though, I mean, like, if it's. odds of blue up I would I would have to think are higher than sailors just based on time in the market and structure but I don't know I'm not trying to cause blood wouldn't you agree I mean just I'd be nervous as shit that's him that's a much easier uh bag to release Tom Lee they should rename it um Lee coin really because what's his name skinny little freak show most certainly I'm going to take it to her it's a eight 800 level whatever it's supposed to go to you mean i think buterin was likely to take a 800 for jokes right because uh it was obviously there was a lot of weight on that i got to say i saw

him presentation the other night and uh if that's their leadership like did you sing did he bro the guy looked like he i i don't know what he was doing okay just didn't know what he was doing okay just didn't I introduced her, I guess, at the Paris blockchain. He spoke, I think it was Paris blockchain. And he just came out and sang in Japanese for like seven minutes. It's a new era. I wish I had that kind of false. I'm going to start out on my show.

You guys are going to just come on here, and I'm just going to start singing in foreign languages for the first 12 minutes. instead of the starting music, that could actually work. You dance like him, though? That might be a game ender. You never know, man. You know, this new generation, they like some things that, you know, are unexpected.

It gets really appeal to the kids. If the speakers show up in the furry outfits, who knows, may expand the audience. Okay, I gave us a little, like, hint, but, okay, so in Abu Dhabi right now, you effectively have financing this week, right? Which is like a huge. Formula One, Polo,

Brake, Salana Breakpoint, Bitcoin. Arguably the biggest like week of events that you can basically put together. Yeah. They are buying culture. That's a met a tourism guy was in at the meeting today. And they're buying culture. to build five museums on an island where that replicate natural history, the Louvre.

And they actually get exhibitions from these museums as well. So it's not just fake. They actually will impact some of the works over time in a cycle. One thing. The overall vibe, there's more money than culture. And that's why they're trying to buy it. They're trying to buy. Yeah, I agree with all that.

How about the actual big? coin mea specifically like is it um you know it's about meeting okay it is because you were at bitcoin the big room is the big room's not filled um still people great audience but it's almost built for the publication of the videos after um so that it's it's about it's like the vCR game it's not about it'll run in the in the theater not like Vegas not like no it's And not like, not 20,000. I don't know, but I would say something like, well, the main room there,

Alken slash Nakamoto stage was probably 400 max people to bigger settings. Oh, wow. And, yeah, it's not a, it's not a filled room. But there are real, some real people. here. So it is about getting the audience with the authorities with the sovereign

and the investment authorities. And you do have some access to them. So that's why it's very different than a Vegas or Miami before that kind of conference. And the VIP room makes a difference

as far as connecting with people. That's what does help. But all know. It is, they don't have clubs out here. So you're not going to fill the room. Yeah, I mean, it's easy to fill a room in Vegas. It's a lot harder to get people on a plane to Abu Dhabi. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine that you would anticipate it being a more institutional event. I was just curious kind of what the vibe is on the market, you know,

trade companies, because when we went to Vegas, Gary, you know, it all, it was just treasury companies. That was it. Right. Bitcoin treasury company pitches left and right. And I mean, that only took a few months where people standing on all that. Are those the conversations? Are there conversations about building on Bitcoin? But, you know, when you're saying people are taking meetings, is it just people raising monies for their money for their dad? Yes. No, so there's a guy doing something called Muscat. not musket musket which is a payment system he's a Brit and he's raising capital for that he's been Bitcoin about 10 years it's going to be a something to try to compete with school so you have some investments another group is doing what type of leveraged Bitcoin and so there are business that are trying to

to raise capital that are that are Bitcoin focused so that's so it's not just so although today was on the enterprise stage was all Bitcoin treasuries you know Dylan Metaplanet over the place when's last time they bought Bitcoin this quarter I don't know yeah I'm that seems like yeah it seems like there's a lot of dry powder running out I mean how many of these guys besides say Tom Lee, have you seen active purchasing from? And I think that that does a lot. They're definitely, they're definitely not licking,

you know, in other words, licking their wounds, but overall the deaths aren't. They're not pounding their chest. But it was there today. Sam, Sam was on stage. Calihan running a group. Had, obviously, Nakamoto, you had Lauren Asmiss, Works for UTXO slash, you know, BTC, Inc.

So of course you're going to have Bitcoin Treasury because David's, you know, group is heavily focused right now. And, you know, you're the same. I was NACA's presentation. On a panel, so it wasn't just NACA. Similar stuff. There's not new information. There wasn't any discussion that I heard of.

Hey, was the panel made up of, like was the panel of the 90% down crew or how was it labeled? They, I will, I will, the one thing I'll give to the Treasury guys is they recognize where they,

they're not making light of it. They're not making light of it. and who knows what what comes next I sure don't know what do you think they're saying I mean the truth is I think too many launched

all at the time right but what are they saying you know behind closed doors I'm wondering because some of the boards have to look around and go whoa whoa maybe we got too many of these and there's no plan here there's no what there's no plan

no there's no more money to buy bitcoin which was strategy it's going to be easy for us to raise money we're going to be able to buy bitcoin in multiple levels over you joe individual and it's just not true it's not accurate at all i agree i'm not pretty to the the room i would you know i and a few other guys we're in a closed room and we were sitting on the board to these what would we be saying to each other? Like, I don't, I'm not trying to poo on anything.

I don't know what the exit, what the exit strategy is. You know, how do you, the only way to monetize it is to capture the discount and sell Bitcoin. That's the, that's the fiduciary and dealer committed to it by doing derivative Bitcoin. So that's the only thing you can do

as a treasury and they have to why they would even balk at it you have to do why would you sit there with a discount when you can monetize it no idea to me to me what has to happen is that these guys need to get either merge two broken companies or we're going to start seeing problems which won't be good for the bit sure it would be horrible for bitcoin but I don't know how long this can go on. Cleaning them up would be absolutely helpful. I don't know if it means, you know, people said,

and it might have been said on this call, so I'll probably regurg it to something about Sailor has options, including, you know, buying Nakamoto at a 50% discount. He can sell Bitcoin or maybe he buys another debt at a 10% discount. instead of buying Bitcoin? Because it'll, would it, you know, would that help move it higher? Could he be that, you know, the impact effect?

I don't think, I don't think anyone should wait for him to buy a company. I don't think he'll do that. He's been poo-poohed on buying company so many times, five, six years ago. He hates the whole merger idea, because he knows it doesn't work. No, he wouldn't buy the company. He would just buy the shares. Well, if you buy the shares, you're not buying any of the liabilities?

No. No, you're just, you're just, you're just buying it. If it comes with any baggage, there's no. It's like the GPTC trade, which, you know, probably a bunch of us on his call, had very bad and then very good time if you stayed with him on that trade. Because I don't know what are the liabilities these guys have. I guess they have some. I don't know why they would ever sell sub-market price for whatever big that they have, right?

I mean, there's crying in a casino for these guys at this point. Yeah, but there must, Joe, there must be liabilities and covenant breaches and I wouldn't buy them. He'll wait for them to capitulate and then he can just buy the Bitcoin at a lower. He's not liquidated. And then, I mean, look. looks like this last purchase for that. 95% of the proceeds from common shares from a

strategy sale, and then 5% came from preferred chairs. So, I mean, he's running the playbook. You know, he's going to keep running his playbook. I don't know why he would delve into, I mean, there's so many these companies now. Maybe they try to figure

something out, but like, why pay legal fees, headache, you know, are there employees that you actually have to bring over and like there's just too much there. It's like don't sell the Bitcoin. Culture.

He's got a peculiar culture. Not everybody just his organization. Yeah. I and if you listen to him, Joe, I think right as far as writing the playbook and his playbook has

changed in the last nine months I would say evolved to be the digital capital. which he's more interested in developing product than being cute on how to buy Bitcoin. I mentioned it only because I don't know what else you would do as it that that doesn't have cash flow to buy new Bitcoin and just hoping for discount to go away. I think that's what you somewhat worked is because they did have revenues, right, even though it's dwarfed by the amount of Bitcoin that they have and the speculation and the potential S&P entry, right?

They did have cash, so they do have like a BI tool. But long term, it's like, why wouldn't you want to operate a business that throws off cash and use that? Right. Like, we still live in that world. It would be like just operate an epic business. And like that a lot of these younger founders, you know, that are launching token and what they're doing, I'm like, just figure out how to make money. and start making some money. And if it's not working, pivot into something new

until you actually see a customer paying you. And then you can do all these funky other things on the outset of that. And that's what the big companies do on public markets anyway. Right? They're buying back their stock. They're making profit.

They're buying back their stock. They're just doing that. And then speculation comes when you get crazy awesome CEOs like, you know, Alex Carp and Elon that are, you know, getting these huge paypacks. and, you know, trade at 500 times earnings, you know, you could be that person and be that thing, but you have to live on a foundation of actual fee out of actual fee coming into your business, at least at this stage or Stamcoin or whatever interesting thing that you're doing,

but it's really difficult to do. And, you know, we talked last week about the killer app, like Pollymarket has a killer app, is the killer. Everyone's talking about it, but it's done nothing for the mattock price it's done nothing for the poly price so you know you got to actually make make money yeah i think the reality you're seeing is that there had to be a repricing of these things because none of those things should fundamental move price or they were wildly overpriced in the first place i mean even if you see these this fundamental adoption or you know usage increasing like what the value of a marginal increase in

fees or revenue from gas when gas fees actually should be armed away and become lower as there's competition. Coinbase has no gas fees.

What is the value of any of these things? What? I said Coinbase basically has no gas fees. Right? Use base and use USDC without gas fees.

They're listing almost every token that will be traded on any decks on Coinbase. That game is now kind of over. Right? From a centralized perspective, you'll be able to buy Dex coins.

Like these things are all merging into one. Like, where's the revenue there? You know, I know they said they want to, they were never launch a token. They might launch a token, but that would crush it. Right? All the ETH use on these other chains.

That's the value of Ethereum. Like when Mark said TCPI, Ethereum is the closest thing we have to that. But again, there's no actual revenue coming from these things. Then there's staking, which ultimately is inflating the chain and inflating out the value there.

So it's a tough game for them right now. Even when I had this very public sort of conversation on X with Joel Katz, David Schwartz from XRP, because I, I guess, said something that was somehow determined to be critical of XRP and obviously got assaulted, you know, from every direction. but he and I engage in a constructive debate about it and he even was saying when we were debating the value of XRP

that eventually the gas fee should go to zero and it should not have much value on their own token right so I don't know what the answer is there William go ahead and I was going to ask

why did why would something whatever you said happens on base why would that crush Ethereum? I didn't get that. I'm saying if base launches their own gas token and people no longer need to hold Ethereum as gas fees, Ethan Base.

That's not bullish on Ethereum. I don't think that's related. Again, people think that what's, if some of these L2s are, successful that for Ethereum and this focus on gas fees and revenues that make any sense for Ethereum because it's more than that. It's a lot more than that. Ethereum is the security layer.

So whatever is good for base is good for Ethereum. And users don't think of, oh, I'm going to hold now this token instead of. of the other token. There's just two transactions, and the whole thing grows. It's all the whole ecosystem that grows together. And right now, Ethereum should not be seen more as a revenue user extraction kind of a platform. It's an infrastructure.

It's a public good infrastructure. The closest to it is TCPIP. if the DIP had a token, imagine what the value of that would be. Yes, but if the underlying token utilized is no longer Ethereum and there's no gas being used and those infrastructure is completely different and they're just using the coding language that was invented, how does the value flow to Ethereum? Because Ethereum is the underlying platform. It's no longer the underlying.

No, it is. Base is an L2. When B stops being an L2, then yes, Ethereum will stop being the security layer. But that's not going to happen. All of the security is underwritten, if quote unquote, is underwritten by the base layer of Ethereum. So the L1, that's where the buck stops.

The base is just think of it as an outpost of the ecosystem. Ethereum's function does not stop. I mean, look, I mean, Polygon has their own token and some of the other L2s have token. But Ethereum still secures the transactions. That's how it works. Yes, and would you say that all of the value is still continuing to flow to Ethereum, and it's performed that over the last four years?

Well, Ethereum is still mispriced right now. I have an upcoming report. released this week, where I'm proposing a methodology to evaluate Ethereum like a public grid. And three dimensions, I'm not going to give you the whole spiel, but what we see right now is the captured value. There is hidden value in terms of flows and trust surplus that I'm quantifying. And that's kind of when somebody understands that, then you'll see that Ethereum is a lot more than what's being perceived than what's being seen right now. I've lost the entire panel. Can you guys hear me? I see no speakers.

So I know you were having a conversation with Joe, but Joe seems to be gone unless he's here. Yeah. I... Okay. Well, I think we've, I've been working through enough glitches today. We're going to go ahead wrap this one up a couple minutes early and we'll run it back tomorrow so we'll be back tomorrow for another crypto town hall thank you gentlemen to run this thing when the platform doesn't work so uh go ahead and cut bait and we'll see all tomorrow thank you guys have a good one bye Thank you.