The Wolf Of All Streets - Decentralizing The World And Becoming An Internet Citizen And Chaos Magician | Kevin Owocki, Founder Of Gitcoin

Starting point is 00:00:00 Are you an internet citizen? Are you a chaos magician? Me either, and I frankly didn't know what those things were until I spoke with Kevin Nowacki, but now you can find out. Your Twitter profile describes you as an internet citizen and a, I believe, chaos magician? That's right.

Starting point is 00:00:24 What does that mean? Well, an internet citizen is just, I believe, chaos magician. That's right. What does that mean? Well, an internet citizen is just a citizen of the world. What we're doing at Gitcoin is trying to build higher resolution tools for digital democracy, allow collective intelligence to come together and build and fund our shared needs. And so a citizen is just being a participant in those systems. And a chaos musician is just recognizing that it takes a little bit of chaos and a little bit of magic to make this kind of technology work to try to bootstrap it.

Starting point is 00:00:51 And that's what I've been doing as the founder of Gitcoin. What's better than listening to the Wolf of All Streets podcast? Listening and watching the Wolf of All Streets podcast live. Well, they say what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But this time that's not the case because I'm hosting a stage at a conference from October 10th to 13th. That's the WebEx conference. I'm going to be bringing you live podcasts, live panels, masterclasses from the leading minds in the industry.

Starting point is 00:01:15 This is going to be absolutely epic. It's going to be live streamed, recorded, and presented to you live. You can come have a happy hour with me, eat dinner, potentially play golf, and watch all of your favorite content being recorded in real time. Guys, the link for this is web3expo.live. That's web3expo.live. Use code WOLF20 to get 20% off your ticket. WOLF20 for 20% off your ticket.

Starting point is 00:01:41 Guys, let's hang out in Vegas, October 10th through 13th. Where's the balance between chaos and actually being able to get things done? Yeah, I think that as a programmer and someone who built a lot of early Gitcoin myself, it was a lot of just putting my heart and soul into the product and getting it off the ground and believing before anyone else did. So you have to be a little bit chaotic to do that, believe before anyone else does. I mean, you obviously have a DAO-based model. It seems like DAOs can either be the greatest governance model in history or a complete Lord of the Flies mayhem breakdown.

Starting point is 00:02:14 How do you sort of maintain that balance? Yeah, well, I mean, I think DAOs, which stand for Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, are a design space in which we can design any sort of digital organization from Lord of the Flies to the future of democratic governance. And we've had 300 years since the East India Corporation to figure out LLCs. We're just figuring out that design space with DAOs. I'm one of the founders of Gitcoin DAO, which is a DAO that builds and funds the public good on Gitcoin grants. And that's been going pretty well. We've been tuning that every

Starting point is 00:02:44 quarter over the last six quarters with Gitcoin DAO. And I been going pretty well. We've been tuning that every quarter over the last six quarters with Gitcoin DAO, and I think it's going to be an iterative evolutionary process to figure it out. How do you avoid the DAO itself becoming too centralized, you know, yourself or another entity having too much control? Yeah, well, I think that there's two starting places for DAOs. There's the Yearn style DAO that is just starting from a primordial soup of pure chaos and developing decentralization and governance from there. But I think Gitcoin started from a different place, which is we started as a company of which I was the CEO and founder, and we started with a hierarchical model. We realized that the community wanted more

Starting point is 00:03:22 credible neutrality out of our primary product, Gitcoin Grants. And so we decided to rewrite the governance, the computation, the development, the economics of the stack all to be decentralized. And so we're going progressively decentralizing over time. And so we just have to decentralize each layer of that stack in order to make sure that it's actually a decentralized organization. I mean, I've somewhat made the argument repeatedly that obviously that centralization and decentralization, people view them as bipolar, but it really is a sort of a gray sliding scale, as you just described. And I think for a DAO to be successful, you have to start with almost a centralized entity for it to work, right? Because how can you ever become organized if you start completely decentralized? Yeah, I think what people are after is structure and predictability.

Starting point is 00:04:06 And that can confer hierarchy and an org chart and all the things that come with a company, but you can have structure and predictability from a credibly neutral smart contract decentralized governance process. And so we've been trying to create as much structure and organization around what we call trustware,

Starting point is 00:04:22 having to rely on code and having to rely on smart contracts as opposed to socialware, which is having to rely on your boss and your peers' interactions. So I think that that's sort of where maybe a little bit of the chaos in the chaos magic comes from. But the goal is eventually complete decentralization. Yep, that's right. So Gitcoin Grants is, Vitalik has called it one of the significant pillars of the Ethereum ecosystem because it's funded thousands of projects, including Uniswap and Yearn and 1inch Exchange and all of the ETH2 clients that helped launch the merge last week.

Starting point is 00:04:53 And one of the things that you want in your funding rails for your ecosystem is credible neutrality. You have to know that Kevin Iwaki, the founder of Gitcoin, is in the back flipping switches for his favorite projects. And that's the reason why we're decentralizing Gitcoin grants into becoming a DAO, is so that anyone can inspect the code and see how the algorithms are routing the money to participants in the ecosystem. And the goal is to build a system of collective intelligence where higher combinations of strength and intelligence can come together and fund the best projects in the Ethereum ecosystem at scale.

Starting point is 00:05:24 And it's not about what me as the intermediary or the founder of the organization want. I'm just building that channel for the strength and intelligence to come together. Right. But it had to come from you as the founder for it to really start and begin and to get to where it is. So what made you think of Gitcoin in the first place? Where did the idea come from? And what was your background that led you to be able to build that? Sure. Well, we're really selling pickaxes to the gold miners. Everyone in this ecosystem needs software developers. And I'm a software developer myself. I've been a VP engineering CTO for the last 10 or 15 years. I've hired 50 software

Starting point is 00:05:58 engineers. I know how to place software engineers into projects. And Gitcoin is a place for software developers to get coins in exchange for working on software development. So we really just had this fundamental insight that software engineers are going to be needed in order to make the blockchain ecosystem work. And we want to be the place where software developers get coins for working in the ecosystem. So very much a picks and shovels play. It seems like that's where all the money is made in crypto anyways, the picks and shovels are not at the end. So what is the end game for Gitcoin if you had to give your greatest 5, 10, 15 year vision? Yeah, well, right now we're in the middle of a metamorphosis from a company to

Starting point is 00:06:36 a DAO, which is not unlike the magnitude of change of a caterpillar going into a butterfly. And within six months, Grants 2.0 is going to launch, which is going to be a credibly neutral smart contract protocol for funding grants. And that's going to be really powerful, we think, because all of these ecosystems are going to need to fund their shared needs and they're maybe going to copy what Ethereum has done in order to scale its funding capacity. So we want to build a future where any group of people

Starting point is 00:07:04 can fund their shared needs using cryptocurrency and sprinkle a little bit of a Gitcoin on top and you can measure what your community wants, fund what it wants, and remove any central intermediaries or any central grants programs that you need to have. So it just looks like people funding what they care about. So you also described yourself as an EVM whisperer, I believe. Why Ethereum? Well, EVM is the Ethereum virtual machine, and it's got the network effects. Whether you're working on Binance Smart Chain, or you're working on the Ethereum mainnet, or you're working on Ethereum L2, there are many, many networks out there that use EVM and Solidity smart contracts. And so by being an EVM

Starting point is 00:07:45 whisperer, which is someone who can talk to the Ethereum virtual machine, you're able to write your code once and deploy it on almost any of these networks, which is really powerful. You know, if you're a mobile developer, you probably want to be able to deploy on Apple and on Android. If you're a software developer in the blockchain space, you probably want to be an EVM whisperer and deploy to the EVM. But why not be deploying to the other chains, the Solana's, Avalanche's, and Binance smart chains of the world? Yeah, well, many of those are EVM compatible.

Starting point is 00:08:14 I think BSC at least is. I think Avalanche is. I'm not sure about Solana, but we'll eventually, hopefully get to writing WASM compatible smart contracts in the future. Just that EVM has the biggest moats. That's the first place we're starting. That makes perfect sense. And obviously, you sort of alluded to the recent merge. Were you sweating? I was actually in the room with Danny and Tim as the merge was happening, and they seemed cool and collected. And I was taking my signals from them, and the merge went off without a hitch. I'm pretty proud of what the

Starting point is 00:08:44 ecosystem has accomplished in the last five years by going from proof of work to proof of stake. Do you think that that was the right decision? Well, I think that that's clearly a matter of debate in crypto Twitter right now. You know, personally, as someone who swings a little bit politically left, I am swayed by the ESG narratives. And I think 99.98% less energy usage is pretty incredible. And so I do think that on an ESG, if you believe in the ESG narrative, then it wholly is a win. But you know, we're still debating whether proof of work and proof of stake is more secure or insecure. And I think that we need to have those debates in a good faith place instead of just in a 280 characters on

Starting point is 00:09:24 Twitter. So the jury's still out on that one. A good faith place would be a nice place for us to find on crypto Twitter and in the crypto community, but I don't think that that's happening anytime soon. It really is incredibly tribal. And to your point, I think people are just sort of talking their book and arguing from an emotional place and not from an irrational sort of basis of what could be in the future. Yep. I would agree with that. Yeah. And so obviously you said that you believe in the ESG narrative. There's a lot of other reasons that some people believe the proof of stake is superior. I think Ethereum, this is

Starting point is 00:09:57 very much the first iteration for the merge, right? And it's not going to affect gas fees and transaction speeds. But assuming that Ethereum becomes its best version, how fast, secure, cheap do you think Ethereum could be in the future? Yeah, well, I mean, I think that what we're really trying to solve is the blockchain trilemma, which is security, speed and decentralization. And I don't want to give up the whole maxim is that you can pick two or three of those things. And I don't think any of us want to give up security. It's not a good basis for asset transfer. And I don't think that we want to choose speed over decentralization.

Starting point is 00:10:34 And so we're really what we're doing in this design space is trying to find something in the center that can get all three instead of two or three. And it's going to take years of R&D in order for that to happen. I believe that Ethereum's scaling architecture, which is a modular blockchain, basically not doing everything on the mainnet, but still using all of these side chains and L2s on the side of it, which get the security of the layer one, but without having to process all of its transactions, is a pretty elegant way of solving that trilemma. But the market will decide what is the most compelling way to do scaling. I think that Solana has obviously gotten off the ground over the last couple of years and has doing something that's deeply legitimate. But we'll see whether or not they have L2s in a modular architecture after they reach what they can do

Starting point is 00:11:21 with their monolithic architecture. They've argued that they can do it all just on the layer one, but I think we've seen the proliferation of layer twos in every ecosystem eventually and problems with scaling. So do you then basically view Ethereum as sort of the base or foundation layer of the ecosystem, but you're going to have to continue to sort of iterate and build other layers on top of it to make it operate at scale? Yeah, well, you know, I hold ETH and I'm a big believer in the Ethereum narrative.

Starting point is 00:11:51 I believe that we're going to have a mesh network of blockchains in the future. And, you know, when you and I exchanged emails to book this engagement, we sent an email and that probably went through a dozen servers in order to get there. But none of us are maximalists over any of those individual parts of the network. You know, I imagine a future in which there will be atomic swaps between blockchain networks and you'll be able to easily transfer in and out of these networks. And you're not a maximalist towards any of them. So with decentralization, that not just means decentralization of nodes, but decentralization of networks. And what if we could have a world in which we could transfer assets through all of them without having to choose one as the

Starting point is 00:12:27 economic center of gravity? I think that's a great vision. At the moment, though, you could obviously argue we're very much in the infancy of that, considering every time we try to bridge something, it seems like we get an exploit or a hack. Yeah, I mean, I think that bridges are clearly an area where there's going to be security issues. And I think that we're not going to scale up to compete with TradFi if there's going to be hacks every other day and you have to worry about your assets going away. And so there's clearly some maturity that's going to need to happen. But on a decade-long timescale, I believe that modular blockchains and being able to transfer assets across a bunch of bridges is going to be a pretty foundational thing. So it's just really early. It's like a meme to say we're still early.

Starting point is 00:13:13 But when you describe it in that way, you say a decade. I think like your retail investor coming into the space and they want to see everything happen in six months to a year. But you're talking about decades. Yeah, there's a little bit of a marshmallow test right here. I think that maybe we all want to see this happen in the next six to 12 months. And I don't believe that that's feasible as someone who has a computer science degree.

Starting point is 00:13:35 And so the people who are taking more credible and safer path, I think, are the ones that are going to win out over the medium or long-term, but we'll see, the market will decide. What were you building before you got into blockchain? I've always been into frontier tech. I was working on a computer vision startup before blockchain. I was working on virtual reality, tried to start an AI crypto hedge fund before getting into this. So I just believe that there's a lot of opportunity in the frontier, and it's the people in the frontier who are going to bring the insights back so that we can build

Starting point is 00:14:02 towns and then eventually cities on top of the technology that we discover in the frontier who are going to bring the insights back so that we can build towns and then eventually cities on top of the technology that we discover in the frontier. Okay, well, let's talk about that vision of the future. Yeah. What's the wildest vision of the future? Talking about VR and AI, sort of what you were developing before that we can possibly imagine. Yeah, well, you know, I wouldn't want to represent that I've got it all figured out yet, but AI and when you've got tons of data being

Starting point is 00:14:26 emitted out of the internet is going to just create massive opportunities to create insights that humans could not figure out from their data. And I'm really excited about what's happening with Midjourney and DALI, the fact that we can create art that is trained on the work of hundreds of thousands of artists. And there's thorny ethical questions in that that I think that we have to figure out. But, you know, when it comes to figuring out what the metaverse looks like, I think that it's going to be the combination of all of these technologies, AI, crypto, VR, that we're going to put them in a pot and mix it and hopefully create something that is deeply engaging and educational and good for the everyday citizen.

Starting point is 00:15:07 And hopefully it's going to be something that's decentralized. If we're figuring out the way that we mediate our experience, the metaverse, that's what the metaverse means to me, is how do we mediate all of our experiences with the digital? So right now we're doing that with Zoom and Twitter and things like that. But what is the next way that we're going to mediate our experience with the digital? And I really hope that it's a decentralized metaverse, a pluriverse that's owned by its users and not by Mark Zuckerberg. Because otherwise, we're just going to have ads injected into our eyes and be tracked the whole way through it.

Starting point is 00:15:38 So buy-in for the people is what I want to see. Yeah, I was just going to say this. So your vision of the metaverse is certainly not the Zuckerverse. Yeah, that's right. Which is kind of terrifying. Yeah, well was just gonna say this. So your vision of the metaverse is certainly not the suckerverse. Yeah, that's right. Which is kind of terrifying. Yeah, well, yeah, I agree. And I can't imagine wanting to live there when there's a decentralized option. But it sounds like you sort of have a vision where the metaverse is more of something that's incorporated into our daily lives, as opposed to plugging in in your goggles and opting out of the real world and going to live in Ready Player One. Well, the reason I didn't work out as a virtual reality entrepreneur is I'm not that much of an

Starting point is 00:16:08 escapist. I live in beautiful Colorado where I love to be outside in nature and breathe fresh air. And I don't want to live in a world in which all of our experiences are mediated by the digital. But when I plug in and I want to build Gitcoin, I'm working in the metaverse and I want to have a metaverse that's by and for the people and probably a pluriverse so that I can fork. I have the right to exit out of any one metaverse and go to someone else's metaverse. So a pluriverse would be a world where many worlds fit and we have a plurality of values and the ability to opt into ones that are by and for the people, I think is pretty important.

Starting point is 00:16:42 And that's what I hope that this is all trending towards over a decade-long timeframe, but we'll see. Which then also requires the development of avatars and personalities and identities that can be moved from one metaverse to another, regardless of the chain as well. So that's another sort of interoperability challenge. Yeah, well, you know, I think we're seeing that with decentralized social media.

Starting point is 00:17:01 At ETHCC in 2021, Vitalik identified public goods funding and decentralized social media at ECC in 2021, Vitalik identified public goods funding and decentralized social media as what's next in Web3 after DeFi. And I think that that was very prescient. You know, the fact that you and I are going to go back to our desks after a few days and probably say what's up on Twitter means that Jack Dorsey and his shareholders are going to get the upside from whatever interaction that we have. And what would it mean to use something like Lens Protocol or a social media network that was owned by and for the people that it serves? I think that's a radical question in 2022. But hopefully when I see you in Mainnet in 2025, we'll be chatting on Lens Protocol or some network that we both jointly owned.

Starting point is 00:17:42 Yeah, decentralized social media seems like one of the most obvious and glaring potential use cases for blockchain, but we haven't seen anything that seems so compelling as of yet. I'm not actually so familiar with Lens, but it seems you have a passion for it. Yeah, well, Lens Protocol was built by Stani from Aave. So he's basically already had his first big success with Aave and is now moving on to the next thing, which is a Web3 social network. And the challenge with Web3 social networks is network effects. I go to Twitter because everyone else is on Twitter and everyone else is on Twitter. Because I'm- You got to get the people.

Starting point is 00:18:16 Yeah. Well, not because I'm on Twitter, but other people are on Twitter. And so you basically have to build that network effect of people using your network. And people don't move for something that's 10% better. They move for something that's 10x better. So what's the way that we can leverage the properties of blockchains, decentralization, immutability, programmability, that creates a 10x better social media platform. And that's the design space that we're trying to figure out right now. And Lens is really efficient as a way of doing that is because they've built these protocols that allow us all to share a social graph. And we can experiment and try to find those 10x use cases on top of it.

Starting point is 00:18:49 So it's just kind of like a shelling point for Web3 developers to try to find what's next. And a lot of people in Ethereum are excited about Lens now. You mentioned that you live in Colorado. Your neighbor, Wyoming, obviously has gotten a lot of attention for their forward thinking views in the crypto space and just in general, I think. But Colorado is no slouch now. Yeah, that's right. Well, you know, we've got all of the nature and culture reasons that you'd want to move to Colorado. But Governor Polis out there is also very interested in making Colorado into the Delaware of DAOs.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And so I think that you're going to see a race by the states to create a place where innovation can happen. And Colorado not only has a friendly governor, but you can now pay your taxes in crypto. And we've also got East Denver, which is one of the biggest Web3 festivals out there. So pretty long Colorado. And you've had something to do with it. You've met with the governor, right? Yeah, met with the governor and was basically at a roundtable this week trying to figure out

Starting point is 00:19:49 how we can make Colorado into a more innovation-friendly state, given the constraints of, of course, the federal and level regulation. But he's very, Jared Polis used to, Governor Jared Polis used to be a web entrepreneur himself, and so he understands the importance of attracting innovators to his state. Yeah, the whole evolution now of, I guess, crypto infrastructure and the industry in the United States is really echoing the marijuana industry to me, which obviously Colorado was ahead of the curve, where you have sort of very little guidance and maybe an aggressive stance from the feds. But states are sort of taking it into their own hands to make it palatable and available. Yeah, well, they say states are the innovation laboratories of democracy. And I think that you're going to see Colorado pushing to be up there with Wyoming and other states and

Starting point is 00:20:37 attracting innovation to their state. You know, when you attract innovators to your state, you attract tax revenue. And that's something the bureaucrats pay attention to. Yeah, you talked about the trilemma before. And I want to go back to that, because that's obviously, I mean, Bitcoiners would already probably say, nothing proof of stake is secure enough, right? You said, I don't want to sacrifice security. But yeah, I don't happen to believe that personally. But that's obviously sort of the Bitcoin maximalist argument is proof of stake itself already a downgrade in security? Well, the Bitcoiner narrative would be Bitcoin is perfect. Satoshi had a moment of

Starting point is 00:21:11 immaculate conception and there will never be a second Bitcoin. Isn't that the sailor quote? There will never be another Bitcoin. The foundation of proof of stake is having an asset that is your stake in the network, which can be slashed if you violate the network protocol. So basically, if you're inactive, then you can have an inactivity leak where your stake gets cut down by 0.001 ETH every hour. If you really try to attack the network, then that stake can be what's called slashed, which means taking your 32 ETH and bringing it down to, I think it's about 16 ETH and 80 ETH and

Starting point is 00:21:50 40 ETH. And so someone in the Ethereum space would say, no, we've improved upon proof of work, because now if you try to attack the protocol, we can just cut your stake in the network. And why is that important? Well, if you get into a point in which someone has 51% hash power on the Bitcoin network, then you're basically in a place in which the Bitcoin network has to fork in order to get out of that attacker's way. But the problem with that is the attacker can just point their hash power at the new network. If you believe that the SHA-256 hashing algorithm is the immaculate conception, is the only hashing algorithm that would ever work. And so the attacker can just follow you from network to network.

Starting point is 00:22:29 Whereas in proof of stake, they can't bring their collateral from network to network in the case of an attack. So I guess that's just a long way of saying the Ethereum perspective would be that proof of stake is way more secure because you can actually slash someone's collateral. Whereas with proof of work, you can bring your mining hardware from network to network.

Starting point is 00:22:49 And you also mentioned, obviously, that you obviously believe in the ESG narrative, at least to some degree. I mean, do you believe that Bitcoin is harmful to the environment? Bitcoin mining, I should say, specifically. I think that the state of the debate right now with Bitcoin and energy use is that it clearly uses a lot of energy. And it seems like the energy usage correlates with hash power, which correlates with price. And so the most important thing is in the next bull market, what happens if we have a 5x in price? Does hashing power go up along that and then energy usage increase along that? I think that the Bitcoin maximalist, or I guess they're calling themselves Bitcoin fundamentalists

Starting point is 00:23:30 now, would say that no, a lot of this is using renewable energy, to which my response would be, okay, show me the receipts. Show me we have X amount of hash power. How much can we account for the receipts of what's coming from renewable energy and what's not? And so I think the burden of proof is going to be on Bitcoiners when they're facing narrative headwinds from ESG in order to show those receipts, if they're going to go down that narrative, that Bitcoin is good for the environment. It's interesting because you obviously talked about the historical correlation between hash rate price and energy usage. Right now, hash rate is at an all-time high and price certainly has not followed or led that. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you zoom out, then there's clearly a correlation, but within an order of magnitude, there's going to be volatility between those things.

Starting point is 00:24:22 So you prefer proof of stake, obviously. I believe in a plurality of blockchains and metaverses. And I think that Bitcoin is useful for getting things off the ground and is going to find its own narrative as a store of value. And Andreas, actually, Andreas Anopoulos gave a really great talk about Bitcoin and Ethereum, in which he compared them to lion and the shark. They're both apex predators of their own respective niches, but no one would ever ask you what's better, a lion or a shark. Who the fuck cares? One lives in the ocean, one lives on the savanna. And I think the same is true of Bitcoin and Ethereum. That's very eloquently put because it's my belief as well. Actually, I've argued that Bitcoin should be super excited that Ethereum has gone to proof of stake because now it further differentiates the two assets because I don't

Starting point is 00:25:07 think that they're comparable at all. I think maybe the problem comes when Bitcoiners get triggered when Ethereum say it's hard money and the deflationary debate and it's a currency and it's trying to compete. I just don't view them as competitive assets. Yeah, I mean, there's a sibling rivalry here where they both were conceived in similar ways and viewed through similar lenses. And there's this tribal warfare between the two that has gotten started and I think will take a while to unwind. But yes, we're certainly in a narrative cycle where Ethereum people attack Bitcoin narratives and Bitcoin narratives attack Ethereum people. And I don't know that that will ever unwind. It's kind of like when you're siblings and you have bad blood, can you ever unwind that? I hope so, because it seems like when you really look at it granularly, we're a very small community collectively. And so like infighting when we have much bigger, I won't say enemies, but much bigger obstacles

Starting point is 00:26:02 to overcome seems counterproductive at best. Yeah. I mean, you know, TradFi is a hundred or a thousand X, depending on how you measure it, what decentralized finances. And clearly there's a lot of growth and, you know, it really feels like the game of coins. You know, I've been watching some, some game of thrones recently, and you've got all these different houses that are fighting for their own resources and their own path. And, and I'm not sure how it's going to work out. But I do know one thing, and that's that if innovation is regulated out of the United States, if the innovators are pushed out, then people are going to be innovating from abroad and then America loses.

Starting point is 00:26:38 Yeah, it doesn't go there. Yeah. So an alliance between America and Ethereum and America and Bitcoin, I think, is one of the best things that our regulators in the United States could do for the 21st century. So assuming your grand vision of Gitcoin comes to fruition, what will you build next? Well, I mean, one thing I'll say is that Gitcoin started in my basement, but it's now hundreds of people who are pushing together a vision of helping communities build and fund their shared needs. So it's really fun to have given that off to the community. And it's actually their vision now and not mine. And similar to how Ethereum has evolved, it will evolve past me. Yeah, so what's next for me is that I've actually disaffiliated from Gitcoin DAO. And because the DAO has no CEO

Starting point is 00:27:22 and I had too much soft power with those 100 or so people. And now I'm contributing from the edges and watching them grow from the edges along with everyone else. And we have renamed the company that I founded, which was called Gitcoin Holdings. We've transferred the trademark for Gitcoin to the DAO, to Gitcoin DAO. And now we're renaming that supermodular.xyz. So supermodularity in math is this idea of one plus one equals three. You've got a bunch of modules that fit together really well, and they're greater than the sum of all of their parts. And so we're going to be building on top of Gitcoin DAO's protocols and on things that are adjacent to Gitcoin DAO's protocols. And if we're successful

Starting point is 00:28:05 in creating a network of supermodules, then the sum will be greater than the whole of its parts. So Gitcoin is out of the house and off to college and hope it gets good grades and doesn't flunk out. Well, it sounds like you're going to be working 24-7 until the day you die with that much vision. I believe that crypto can be a good thing for the world. And one of the things that I'm trying to do is make sure that crypto does become good for the world. And I don't think I'll be working 24-7 till the day I die, but I would like to see the narrative of Web3 being a good thing for the world and its everyday citizens come to fruition. So I'll be working on that. Well, I think that's a vision we can all share, man. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks, Scott.

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The Wolf Of All Streets - Decentralizing The World And Becoming An Internet Citizen And Chaos Magician | Kevin Owocki, Founder Of Gitcoin

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