The Wolf Of All Streets - DeFi on Bitcoin? @TeamDefiGold | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

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Can you guys hear me? Give me a thumbs up. Hello. Because dealing with the power out of Jed, Joe, you can hear me. Thanks. Yeah, I got cut off. I got got cut off mid YouTube show today. My power went out right in at the beginning, waited like five minutes came on. I had an LW on luckily, power went out halfway. He just kept on talking until my generator came on and I was able to finish the show for a couple minutes. It was a complete trade wreck. Good times. It's always nice living in Florida.

You never know what day a five-minute hurricane is going to flow through. Hope everybody's doing good. Friday, obviously, I read our own title as Bitcoin slowly recovering to 100,000 next, which is not what it says. But it seems like Bitcoin going from 62 to 63 may not be an indication that we're going to 100 next. I would bet that we're going to 65 and 66, maybe even 67 before we get to 100. But hey, it's always good to have a really hyperbolic excitable title to get people to get people to click uh ryan you there i don't think ryan can hear me mario you there

you're in a worse glitch than me man it's going great, guys. High production today. We've all decided on Friday. Mario sounds like those videos from the moon landing back when that happened.

You know what, though? With his biohacking, I wouldn't be surprised if we found out he was literally dialing in from the moon because he found out that there was some rare pill up there that could make him last three more months. Nothing would surprise me. No, now he's not here. We can say whatever we want about him. Amazing.

Anybody have anything to say about Mario while he's a listener and he can't speak? Joa, any thoughts? Joey, no, I'm heading back to Philly this weekend for my 25th college reunion, our old stomping grounds. Can you hear me? Can you hear me now? Yeah, unfortunately. Ryan is joining. He's going to talk about his new token called Chupa Chups.

Or Chupa Chups. I don't know what country you're from. Yeah, I'm joking. I like Chupa Chups. You guys call it Chupa Chups. I just thought of that. You guys call it Chupa Chups. Different people from different countries call it different things. Chupa Chups.

I don't know. I can't say that my pronunciation is necessarily representative of all Americans. I could be butchering it. I'm just trying to get Joe to come meet me in Philly so we can go clubbing like the old days do you know Mario you know that Joe and I know each other like in real life from 25 years ago or more did you know that

okay shit hold on Joe can you tell me more about Scott 25 years ago please and be very honest and very detailed bro I'm not gonna lie dude Scott was the man. He was a DJ. He was kind of everywhere. He did live in Gaborhood for a while with

a friend of mine which had the funniest thing ever. He had a pizza shop at the end of the street with this guy that looked like Snoop Dogg, but he was gay. He would just make me laugh every time because he spoke gay, but he looked like Snoop Dogg, but he was gay. You know, he would just make me laugh every time because he spoke gay, but he, he, he spoke, he looked like Snoop Dogg.

Scott, you know who I'm talking about? He was always outside. Of course. So that, that pizza shop was on the first floor of my fourth, of a four floor building. And I had the second, third and fourth floor. So that was like literally in my building oh my god mario's on the moon again great job mario you're doing good

yeah yes i lived above a pizza shop if that was the question sounds like you're trying to dj yourself i thought you were a bit different than you lived over a pizza shop no i rented i rented i had a three floor like loft that was above a pizza shop it was a four floor building and the first floor was the pizza shop and it was between as joe said he was not being derogatory that literally, the neighborhood everybody in Philadelphia called that area the neighborhood because it was between a bar named Woody's. Yeah, it was between a bar named Woody's and a club called the 2-4 Club, which is like the only late night club. One of the three late night clubs in Philly, we go out past two o'clock in the morning.

And that was like the adjacent door to the door of my apartment, basically. So it was the wildest neighborhood until like four o'clock in the morning every night. But I'm sure everybody doesn't want to hear this. So I think we can move on. Mario, is your mic actually working now? No, it's not. No. This is literally the worst.

We are producing the worst show in history. Okay, guys, let's talk about Bitcoin. Obviously, we talk about the market here. Having a slow recovery, as it says in the title, I can go out on a limb and say nothing to see here at the moment. I mean, I think this is just kind of the slow sideways chop that I've been anticipating coming for a while, but we got to talk about something.

Somebody else sounds like they're on the moon. I don't even know who that is. It's still just Mario. Great. Going terrifically well. Uh... cool like uh this is going even better than my youtube show to be honest which didn't even happen halfway through so anyways uh mario you're still showing his co-host even though you said you left in the private chat so uh going great andrew, let's start here. What are your thoughts on the

market, buddy? Well, my thoughts on the market is first, Mario sounds like that strange late 1980s, early 1990s television robot, Max something or other. I can't remember what the full name was, but I think everybody remembers how weird it was and how strange it was, which kind of feels very Mario-ish. As it relates to the markets, you know, I said something earlier today that Bitcoin feels a little spring-loaded. That doesn't mean that spring-loaded is associated with today or tomorrow, but it feels like throughout, you know, the next, let's call it three months or the summer. And the reason why I think the spring-loaded part is that I agree with you, Scott next, let's call it three months or the summer. And the reason why I think the spring loaded part is that I agree with you, Scott, that there's going to be chop over the next three months. And I mentioned this, I think last week or earlier this week, weeks are getting

kind of long over here. I mentioned that Bitcoin being, you know, a little more associated with traditional markets at this point, given the ETFs. We have a sell in May and go away reality associated with traditional markets. Volumes plummet. The opportunity for massive moves outside of Black swan events kind of go away. And so the chop associated with traditional markets will find its way to Bitcoin. But that means that when there is a return, when folks come back in late August, early September, I think that's when we see probably a fairly aggressive move higher because there will be demand that will have sort of pipelined its way through the system. And what I mean by pipelined its way through the system, this is what I mean. Morgan Stanley will have come on board. UBS will

have come on board. Other large financial institutions will have approved on board. UBS will have come on board. Other large financial institutions will have approved on a larger scale across their platforms. And something that Bitwise is doing that people don't pay enough attention to, two-thirds of financial advisors don't work at Morgan Stanley or UBS or Merrill Lynch. They work at RIAs or small shops that nobody on this stream has heard of. So the demand associated with the day-to-day work of these organizations getting approvals with platforms that have 3 billion, 2 billion, 6 billion, 20 billion, 1 billion, 800 million, that will have moved its way, quote2 billion, $6 billion, $20 billion, $1 billion, $800 million, that will have moved its way, quote unquote, through the pipeline of demand. And when we see volumes return,

I think that's when Bitcoin takes off again. And in typical Bitcoin fashion, it will feel like gradually and then all of a sudden. That's what we've seen a guy like tom lee talks about that all the time you know the performance associated with bitcoin is generally found in like about 10 days each year um i think we'll see that again um come the end of summer early fall mario you want to give a mic test uh yeah bro you're good you're good oh thank god yeah you can't you can't just sit there and attack me just because space is glitching um your favorite thing to do is so you've literally kicked me off stage before to talk about me while i had to listen and couldn't be invited back on come on you got your you got your revenge pretty badly i wanted to the first thing i was really

curious about and i know we've got the panel for that and there's a lot of topics to discuss it's just the etf inflows and outflows i just We haven't talked about it in a few days. And maybe I wanted to ask you that question, Scott. Have you been watching the inflows and outflows, your thoughts on the ETFs? And then the next question is something that I've been asked a lot, is obviously your expectations in the markets. Do you just expect it to be choppy for a few months now? And how would that choppiness, how would that reflect? Obviously, if Bitcoin is choppy, up, down, up, down, up, down.

What does that mean for the rest of the asset classes, Scott? Yeah, I mean, I think Andrew summed it up well, and I've said it quite a few times here. I do expect no crystal ball. I could totally be wrong. I expect to be wrong. But I've been saying, I guess, since mid-March, right when we topped, that I expected four to six months of complete boredom, chop, low volatility, disgusting summer price action, which we generally get in the summer and we generally get in the halving cycle. So nothing surprising there. As far as inflows, outflows, it's been pretty net neutral from what

I've been seeing. There's been outflow days. Last week, we certainly had quite a lot of outflows. But there's been inflow days. I think some of the days have been either net 10 million or 10 million positive or negative. So really a nothing burger. I mean, I think that if you look at Bitcoin price action, you can roughly anticipate ETF inflows and outflows to relatively mirror that. Until we get one of these unlocks that Andrew always talks about, a Morgan or UBS comes on, or we find out about some huge sovereign wealth position. I think it was reported. I don't know if we talked about it here. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, though, that Susquehanna, I think it was had over a billion dollar exposure to Bitcoin spot ETFs. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's that that seems like that's really meaningful, right? Well, and those those 13 F's aren't done being reported, right? That's effectively the big one. They've been trickling in for about 30 days now, and there's another two weeks left for probably the biggest ones to be announced. So I suspect that there'll be other announcements like that that will find themselves in that of size category. We'll hear that. But again, this is just the first quarter that people can even accumulate any sort of position. Remember, you know, again, the next quarter will be reported effectively at the, you know, the middle to the end of summer. That will be another sort of momentum, you know, positioning type of news making type of thing for Bitcoin to move higher.

Yeah, that makes sense. But Mario, so I guess that sums it up. I mean, not not much expectation in either direction until we either get that, you know, four to six months out of the habit or some catalyst. If you look at if you look at previous cycles, so we saw the, you know, a few weeks ago, kind of came to an end, but we saw a couple of months of just complete craziness, like it's full steam ahead, bull market, all asset classes pumping, most of asset classes pumping. Now, again, I'm not a trader. I wasn't a trader. But if you look at past cycles, is that like crazy initial hype? If you look at it, if you expect the cycle to repeat itself again, do you see that massive hype?

Then sideways, and then the real bull market begins that how it usually works and and then the question the question before that is that how does it what with that sideways movement do you see inflows into other asset classes as bitcoin chops uh for a few months do you mean other asset classes within crypto like down to all coins of course of course yeah course. Yeah, I mean, it's been interesting this time. I think we all know that we preempted the cycle with a new all-time high before the halving, right? So that was different. To your point, we had these huge sort of movements in all coins. But if you actually take a look, Bitcoin dominance hit the highest point it had been at in years. And most, you know, 90 something percent of altcoins, if you looked at them that were not new, are still down 90-plus percent from their all-time highs.

So we haven't even had a remotely an alt season like the ones of the past where everything goes up. It's really been very select based on small narratives. NVIDIA goes up, so all the AI tokens go up or like this brief RWA kind of pump or these things. And then, of course, just the insanity of meme tokens, I think, made everybody have the impression that we'd had these major alt seasons. But we really haven't. And, you know, even in past cycles, yeah, we've had DeFi summer, things like that. These sort of cyclical washing machine from narrative to narrative, but we really have not seen a wholesale movement of altcoins outside of certain ecosystems and narratives,

obviously like Solana had its move this time at all. So I would expect that it's a boring summer for all asset classes in crypto. I have no idea if that'll be correct, and then we'll see. Yeah, just a heads up, just looking at some of the news, just because of Frontecech and meme coins, or mainly because of Frentech and meme coins, base is activity on basis skyrocketing.

About 45% of basis transactions are related to social fi. That's half of their transactions are related to, I'm guessing, Frentech. Yeah, and by the way, Franklin Templeton just released a paper called Base Season and covered it. So institutional attention on base, obviously.

Do you remember when we covered the launch of Base here live? We had Jesse from Coinbase come on stage and discuss Base. And initially, it didn't get much traction, if you remember. Actually, it did. There was a bit of a loophole and people were able to launch meme tokens at the beginning of Base. Yeah, bald. Remember the bald token that was based on Brian Armstrong went nuts and people couldn't even get money off of base at that point. There was no way to bridge that. Yeah, but a side note as well. Have you been speaking to VCs, and Joe, I'll go to you and the rest of the panel, but have you been speaking to VCs a lot? And they've made a really their largest investor ever. Their largest investment ever is in Ton. The Ton blockchain, which is funny.

That must be why Ton is flying today. Yeah. Oh, OK. There you go. Yeah. Patera made that disclosure earlier today. So have you been speaking to VCs? What's their strategy in this bear market?

Are they just going to accumulating, preparing for the cycle to repeat itself? That's our strategy. But I want to know if we're alone. Yeah, I can only speak anecdotally. I've spoken to quite a few. We've seen announcements of pretty big funds. I think Andreessen was doing a billion, something like that. I know, obviously, the DNA guys who hadn't been around for two cycles, we were obviously with them in Dubai. They announced they were launching just now and are starting to deploy. Yeah, I think that there's quite a few. And if you want to talk about what they're doing, I think behind the scenes, exactly what you said. I think they're accumulating, investing, trying to time out with the projects they're investing in strategically,

when will be a good time to launch and such but it listen we had reached a fever pitch as you know a couple months ago with uh you know all of the like pre-sale investments and projects raising it slowed down i think a lot and i think maybe it'll get a bit uh more attention on better projects but yes they're definitely they're definitely very active behind the scenes i think just not as many things are launching. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, from what you've seen? Yeah, mixed messages. I just, I don't understand how people could be bearish. It's like the same cycle time and time again, yet people have been in crypto for a while. For some reason, they find a new reason to be more bearish this time around, but to be more bullish when the market is doing well. Everyone just everyone's emotional no matter how how intelligent they are uh but i think most people are pretty pretty comfortable accumulating um and you know with our south strategy as well as you know the the elections is one thing that people

are watching obviously trump's comments how significant were trump's comments in your opinion i think we should send it to the panel um because uh yeah yeah i mean i think they're significant talk i think it's a 180 from where his position was before and i think it just helps him in the election as well because there is a big crypto community about d5 actually look just looked at this chart the other day that um it's starting like mid-july d5 runs like almost every bull market that's when it starts to get exciting kind of expect the same thing and you you mentioned ton and i'm actually like in love with time it's. If you go to Telegram and just type in at wallet, you're going to have the easiest onboarding experience I've ever seen. And they're faster and cheaper than everyone else.

I see why there's a lot of excitement there. And it's an interesting one to look at. Do you see, Joe, do you see that excitement around the Bitcoin ecosystem? And we have Yago here as well. Do you see that excitement around the Bitcoin ecosystem? And we have Yago here as well. Do you see that excitement around the Bitcoin ecosystem to continue? Scott, I always love to use Brock Pierce's analogy in our interview in our panel a few weeks ago, talking 2049. It's like when you're king, you don't give a fuck about being first. You just let others, you kind of innovators, get arrows in their back and you come in slowly whenever you want because you don't give a fuck.

That was Brock Pierce's words. So do you expect that trend? You're breaking up. Yeah, Mario, you're breaking up again, but I think we got the gist there. So I think Iago and then Alex are the right people to – yeah, I would say Alex as well because they're the two here that have been building there for a very long time. Go ahead, I'll go then, Alex. Yeah, I think, you know, every single cycle has its meta narrative, the big driving narrative.

And it's very hard to identify where this meta narrative is if it's not in Bitcoin for this cycle. We've seen sort of ethereum killers from last cycle we saw d5 from last cycle and if these were done last cycle um and uh and roll up sort of uh probably with a great big ethereum hope for this cycle uh but uh the ui complexity the points program challenges uh also not to mention with eigenlayer make that a very complicated story to sell um i think the thing that has always been at the core of the big meta narrative for every single cycle has been what is the big new capability that we've gotten and the very big new capability that we've gotten and the very big new capability that we've gotten is this time in bitcoin uh bitcoin is 1.3 trillion just as btc

the entire ethereum ecosystem with eth all of its tokens all of its d5 plus the entire solana ecosystem with all of its meme coins and DeFi is less than half of that. And that's before Bitcoin gets rollups, smart contracts, just got NFTs, blew past everyone else in NFTs, just now getting tokens. It's probably going to blow past everyone else with runes as well, though I expect that that's going to take several months. So my expectation is that as this starts to crystallize, the first true Bitcoin rollups start gearing up, getting ready to launch

around September of this year. As we start seeing the first true smart contracts on Bitcoin, as we start seeing the first true DeFi on Bitcoin towards the end of this year, it's going to suddenly take everyone by

surprise even though it shouldn't that this is where the big story is yeah i i think yago is mostly right on that i think the the way i'd put it is that you know last cycle the story was what's the new thing and i think this cycle is what's the new place with the new place being the same as the old place back on Bitcoin. Yeah, there's always the chance, obviously, for some kind of random out of left field thing coming in. But I think based on all of the action we've seen over the last year, just the rates of progress, energy development going into everything. It is just going to be very Bitcoin centric. I will be I don't feel like I have a great read on sort of which of the various ecosystems,

as we've seen, like there's like 50, quote unquote, L2s that have been announced in the last few months and with varying degrees of quality and reality to what they're doing. I think Yago is a little more optimistic about the rate at which we're going to see roll-ups come out on Bitcoin. I think it's going to end up just, I mean, as he knows from also building on it, there's a lot, a lot of technical challenges uh to it and

trying to interact with the layer one given the lack of actual compute on it and so i think it's going to be much more about less you know one particular ecosystem on it taking off necessarily and just one or two specific apps that i think uh hit and, you know, get figured out, you know, whoever builds like a DEX that really has a good flow to it and that people want to use and get good, you know, trading and yield earning protocols up. So I think you're totally, you know, I think you're right that tech does take longer to build than people anticipate.

Although I would point out that Bitcoin is sort of been building for years and years and years and years. You can't expect it to be much slower than that. So I think people have already written off the tech. And so we'll be surprised sort of as we as as a lot of Bitcoin tech starts to reach the finishing line, it will take people by surprise. My expectation is that within the next three months, we'll see the first ZK proofs verified in Bitcoin. I think that is going to be the kickoff gun because that's going to change everything. And I think, you know, to what you were saying, the number one indicator to always look at is where are the devs going? And the influx of devs going into bitcoin right now

is like nothing i've ever seen before certainly not in bitcoin but also rarely in any other ecosystem um it's just a huge sort of i think the number of devs working on bitcoin is 10x over the last six months crazy shidon it's funny you were part of that conversation that mario referenced where brock pierce said that actually i believe yeah yeah it was a great over the last six months. Crazy. Shidan, it's funny. You were part of that conversation that Mario referenced where Brock Pierce said that, actually, I believe. Yeah, yeah, it was a great talk. So personally,

there's only two ecosystems that I'm investing in. And obviously, Bitcoin, I'm full heads in on. And that's the TUN ecosystem and the Bitcoin ecosystem. And the reason I love TUN is, first of all,

it's the only scalable technology that really does sharding right. And that's a big deal. The other big deal is, I mean, you know, after Bitcoin, they have the most number of users by way of Telegram. You're talking about at least 900 million, you know, MAU. And that's absolutely insane. And they're actually using it for their services. You can buy name handles with it.

You can do all kinds of stuff that they have in the pipeline. And the smart contracts there are actually very scalable and easy to build. So I do see time as a potential next step and maybe even number two to build. So I do see time as a potential, you know, next step and maybe even number two to Bitcoin. Bitcoin also has now more scalable contracts than most people realize. It's very highly scalable because they are off chain, essentially. And, you know, for me, it's not even runes and ordinals and all that. I think I think or the L2s. I'm not impressed with the L2s at all. What I think will be the game changer and make everybody realize where Bitcoin is going is when Tether launches on RGB and Bitfinex really starts telling the community about its Iris wallet and where that's headed and how it enables, you know, full smart contracts and do DeFi and Web3, it's going to be a real game changer. Ryan, you had your hand up. Yeah, I mean, I think we're all in agreement that the market's running sideways. We're all in agreement that something's going to move on Bitcoin as far as layer two development.

But we've had layer two development on Bitcoin for the last, what, 11 years. We had MasterCoin. We had Colored Coins. We had Factum rooting into Bitcoin. We've had layer twos and all sorts of expansions on Bitcoin. But maybe this is the case of too early equals wrong. Maybe now's the time and people are ready for it because Ethereum's, you know, bolstered such a great DeFi community. But now we have Base and we have all these other Layer 2s on Ethereum that are expanding out that way.

So I don't see anything taking over Bitcoin anytime soon. I don't necessarily think Tom's going to be number two anytime soon either. I think there's enough meme coins and degens out there that are going to keep Solana and Ethereum up top with Bitcoin. I don't think anything is going to take over Bitcoin anytime soon either. I think there's too much infrastructure rooted in Bitcoin and too much value in its ability to do things outside of

just currency and value store with the way proof of work is being implemented. So Bitcoin is going to explode as more nation states start adopting it under energy policy and i think that's just going to be within the next year year and a half and then we're just going to skyrocket and there's no turning back because there's only 21 million of them that's never going to change so you either start stacking stats now or you're gonna get left

behind there's a there's a there's a regulatory regulatory narrative here too that i think is moving uh markets and and moving people continually into the bitcoin ecosystem right so two years ago there wasn't a ton of conversation around layer twos runes and all the other stuff going on on Bitcoin now. And whether that's conscious or subconscious, the fact that anytime there's even a hint of alt season, a hint of conversation about, you know, another version of something pumping, you know, Gary Gensler jumps in and throws a bomb at some organization that's specifically focused kind of in those other chains and other ecosystems.

So Bitcoin, for all intents and purposes, at least here in the United States, which is the biggest economic market on the planet, is the only approved crypto asset, right? And so there's an interesting, you know, a lot of this conversation over the last 10 minutes, I keep thinking to myself, there's a regulatory component that's pushing people in that direction on purpose. So, you know, Preston's here. I'm interested in his thoughts as a legal guy and a regulatory guy and a guy that, you know, kind of butts heads and writes nasty letters back and forth to people in the regulatory space. You know, interesting, interesting way to look at the drift towards significant building in the in the Bitcoin space and how it has kind of exploded.

What's the question exactly? Well, the question is, you know, do you think that there's a regulatory element to the continued growth in, you know, building on Bitcoin, so to speak, right? As Ryan just said, you know, layer twos have existed on Bitcoin for 11 years, like Liquid, for example, has been around for forever. Is there a regulatory element to folks being, you know, appropriately concerned about if they build this or build that on other chains and other ecosystems that at some point is just going to be blasted out of existence? I don't think so, to be honest with you the the main regulatory problems that we so a regulatory problem um has to be thought about in different

layers of the stack if you're at layer one there are certain regulatory problems that bitcoin doesn't have because you haven't got for example um you know you haven't got an ico right you haven't got a dev team that's centralized, raised a bunch of funds. When you move into layer two, however, you immediately start running into those problems again. We saw recently with the enforcement actions against Samurai Wallet, right? What followed after that was like half a dozen lightning startups shut down because everybody said, uh-oh, like bit players in bitcoin are being focused on by finsen and that's potentially problematic for us particularly

if we focus on a privacy solution um or if we're focusing on lightning and so what i think probably happened was a bunch of lightning companies went out to council and said hold on a second you know we are you know we've opened 10 million channels and we're sitting on a thousand btc are we a money transmitter and the answer to that is possibly yes um so you have different types of of regulatory problems in other ecosystems that are similar so ethereum for example had the tornado cash prosecution uh which is which is very is broadly similar to what's going on with samurai wallet uh and you know might be similar to things that could happen in the Lightning ecosystem in the future. So I don't think that the regulatory push, you know, I don't think regulatory problems are necessarily pushing people onto Bitcoin. I think there are other ecosystems and I'm a well-known Chia shill so like for example the chia guys have tried to address the the sort of ethereum

style applications on a bitcoin style transaction model uh by pushing a lot of stuff out to the client maybe we're going to see more of that whereas ethereum tends to rely very heavily on centralized infrastructure like in fura or you know something similar to adn us so i i don't think regulation really it's directly applicable to Bitcoin when we're talking about the L1 only. But the minute you move out of the L1, most L1 projects have figured out, okay, we're just going to expatriate and leave the United States, which is a shame, but that's what they're doing. And so I think that's just what the solution is going to be until the United States figures out a way to repatriate those projects and normalize trading of those coins within our regulatory framework.

Dave? Well, I rarely disagree with Andrew and Preston. But frankly, if you read SAB 121, which directly targets Bitcoin and the ability to protect customer assets in Bitcoin by the big banks, it's pretty freaking clear that Bitcoin is directly in the crosshairs of what this administration and Elizabeth Warren want to do. So there's clearly no, you know, it's literally the opposite. You pointed this out this morning before your video glitch, Scott. It is literally the opposite of what we all thought, which is they want street to adopt bitcoin no elizabeth warren wants to kill it and honestly i i you know i thought that that counselor that the political idiocy of going after uniswap was

going to be the thing that's going to really screw them but this is is far and away worse i mean i i honestly think it's the political idiocy of going after Robinhood. Oh, that is what's because like it's they went Uniswap doesn't actually exchange anything. And the SEC shows up and goes, you're an exchange. And then Coinbase goes, hold on a second. We're an exchange. And then the SEC says, no, you're. Yeah, that was a great tweet. And Robinhood comes around and they say, we're a broker. And they say, no, you're a clear. I love I love that post of Preston. I really did. That was great. And I did an interview on CNBC talking about the Robinhood thing. You're right. I mean, look, the reason I mentioned Uniswap is because anyone, I'm older than you guys. My kids are just out of college or just finishing college.

50% of all, I asked them all and their friends, 50% of them have played around with Uniswap and PancakeSwap, et cetera. So, you know, that's what I thought. Then going after Robinhood, which is literally the company most associated with democratizing financial markets. I mean, they are literally playing with fire and now basically, you know, saying they're going to veto a bipartisan supported bill to reinforce Gensler's idiotic idea that you shouldn't be allowed to protect customer assets inside of a banking framework. I mean, I don't know. If you want to commit a political suicide, it's a great way to do it. But, you know, maybe that's the most bullish thing about all this, because it really is that dumb. I mean, they

managed to get Trump to put Ryan Selkis up on stage with him at Mar-a-Lago. I mean, I did not have that on my 2024. That is that has been that has been in the works. I'm not going to talk about that too much, but that the Trump and crypto thing has been in the works for some time. What I will say is that there are receptive people in the Trump campaign to crypto. I mean, I don't think I do. I think Donald Trump woke up one day and said, you know, oh, I'm going to be pro Bitcoin. No, I think there are people around him who recognize that it's a political wedge, A and B, that it's something which is going to be relevant for the future of the country.

But Ryan has been very forward about formulating ideas and trying to put them in front of the, you know, the presumably administration awaiting if you think Trump's going to win the election. That that's that engagement has been going on for six plus months. And, you know, honestly, if crypto people want, if you really want to see the regulations change, you need to start engaging with the politicians who are willing to listen to those proposals and who are going to be in a position to make those changes. I was stunned when I saw what Trump said. Mind you, he's kind of like dipped his toe in a little bit. He mentioned Bitcoin once in February. He mentioned it again in March. And then there was that speech on stage at Mar-a-Lago

where he just said, this is ridiculous. We should bring all our people home. We should have all our businesses here. This is where we need to be based right here in America. So now, you know, the election's heating up. Now's the time. If you want to see pro-crypto changes in the next administration, you're not going to get them out of the Biden administration. But I think there's an increasingly good chance you're going to get them from a Trump administration. So now's the time to start engaging with the political process people. The only thing I have to ask about this is, look, you know, forget who's running the country, you know, handlers or this, whatever. I don't care. It always seems to me that opinion polls, you know, tend to drive politics and that, you know, trial balloons get floated in this period

of time. And as we get to July, August, when they actually formalize a platform, unless they're completely asleep of the switch, one would expect, and I know that there are people out there who are hoping this, one would expect that the Democrats to want to try to neutralize this as an issue. I mean, it's right there from the do it, but obviously it's not trivial. I'm just curious, you know, what people think about that. I think the first... David, I'm going at what you're talking about there. I think crypto is not as much of a no-brainer for politicians as

folks in our position might think it is. There was some recent polling that came out earlier this week that yes for a group of people it's a significant mover the flip side of that is like for every person who owns crypto in the us today or every voter who owns crypto in the us today you've got someone else who previously owned it and is not interested in owning it again currently right there's a lot of people that if politicians come out very heavily in favor of it currently right there's a lot of people that if politicians come out very heavily in favor of it for um there's still a brand problem around a lot of crypto especially post ftx um and so i don't think it's like a no-brainer for a lot of these folks uh to necessarily back

behind it that hard um i think from help either to be honest right although i like memes don't help either, to be honest. Although I like they don't help the narrative. The memes don't help that narrative either. It seems like gambling and childish to a lot of people. We just have to be realistic about that. I think with Donald

Trump and time out what Preston was, keep in mind, man, Trump says whatever the fuck like his audience in front of him right at that moment, sharing does he pulled this shit with Second Amendment, he pulled this shit around abortion. I'm not saying that Trump, a Trump administration wouldn't be better for crypto. There's obviously like Gary Gensler would not be in charge of the SEC, someone who is much more friendly to crypto would be in charge but like don't fucking think that donald trump is going to go out and like truly believes in crypto and is going to spend his political capital getting a market structure bill across um i think no like alex you know this because we discussed it in Dubai.

But like the fact is that like this particular strand of engagement with this candidate, right, has been happening in a very direct way by certain back channels for months. And so what we're starting to see is there initially, my understanding was initially that the reception among the campaign and trump himself was quite tepid um from the crypto community right so it and they they detected that as well but what we're starting to see is a feedback process where he's saying stuff about crypto and he's getting positive feedback so he's saying more so i think that i think that there's something really good moving here and it's not just a question of Trump. I remember the Second Amendment stuff. He said we were going to get concealed carry reciprocity, and that they were going to give guns to every school child. I remember that. And I was very disappointed when it didn't

happen. However, you know, the school child thing is a joke, guys. But that's in case you couldn't pick up on that. But on the crypto point in particular, I you know, there are this process has been ongoing for some time. There is direct engagement with people who are rumored to either be up for the SEC's top job or the Treasury Secretary's top job. There are people who are very pro crypto who are being considered for those positions. You know, it is it has been rumored. And I think that this is for real like i don't i don't think this is just trump firing off because you know it's 17 year old wearing pit vipers you know at mar-a-lago asked him a crypto question

there's definitely there's there's some meat to the bones of this policy here yeah and i think selkis in particular gets a lot of credit for pushing this forward the the point where i was going uh preston with it that i think is kind of the critical point is, like I said, Trump, no doubt a Trump admin would be better for crypto. Like I've had the same conversations probably with people about the shortlist for both SEC chair and Treasury secretary. All of the names I have heard on those lists are far, far better than what we're seeing right now for the policies that like folks in this room are going to care about. But the point I was going to make is, that's only one piece. And it's one thing to not have shitty enforcement actions coming against people. But what we really do need is an we do need a market structure, but we do need an actual regulatory regime. And I think the thing that people miss is, consumers don't want a wild west.

Consumers want to know that they can safely and earnestly invest and that like their money is not going to just fucking disappear. Again, FTX was a really, really big hit for this industry. I think it is underestimated how much that did. I think it is underestimated how much damage memes do for people who are not in the degen set and so my point there was going to be we need to keep working with congress and actually be open to the friends there and the people there because certainly a market structure bill is going to have a much better chance of getting signed in a trump administration making across the line there but we need to get the market structure bill and have it be the right market structure bill and that is what i think will take crypto to the next level in the u. it comes to acceptance. Really quick note, before we

go, Yago, you can go right after. But a really quick note is that from what I've heard, and Alec, you've probably seen the same list, but at least in the interim, if Trump did win, Gensler would be ousted and the interim chair would be Hester Peirce, which they could keep or he could appoint someone new, but there would be ousted and the interim chair would be Hester purse, you know, which they could keep or he could appoint someone new, but there would be a period there where likely as the senior Republican on the sec Hester purse, affectionately known as crypto mom who writes a dissent letter every single

time she gets chance against her own sec, she would probably be in power at least for a while. So it is an interesting note. And I don't do politics, but we can state facts. Go ahead, Gago. Look, I mean, as you can tell from my accent, I'm not American, but I think it's an amazing situation to be in where you can actually vote in a way

which is literally going to impact your bags. With regards to, and so I think there's a very strong motivating factor there. With regards to we need a market structure bull, yes, that would be nice, but I don't think we need it. We already have an ability for retail and institutions to get into the space, and that's the Bitcoin ETF. So you get a Bitcoin ETF paired with a more friendly government,

a more friendly, you know, or at least less aggressively hostile regulatory environment, and you get something extremely powerful. But one of the challenges, you know, earlier this week, there was a commencement speaker, I think it was at Ohio State University, who got booed for mentioning Bitcoin. There's like the college campuses

between protesting and taking over halls and booing, they remain as left-wing as ever. And they have polarized this issue. And by polarizing Bitcoin, they've turned Bitcoin into a symbol of free speech and particularly of free markets. And therefore, something which is easier for Republicans to adopt as part of their overall campaign approach. I think that is actually highly beneficial. And where it's going to happen is going to be in the run-up

to the November election. So that's exactly the end of summer that Scott began talking about at the very beginning of this, that we've been talking about over the course of this basis, right? We can expect to start seeing far more excitement, interest and retail engagement as we come out of the summer. And so that means that there's a very good likelihood that the election is actually going to be happening at exactly the same time that interest in crypto and Bitcoin is coming to a new all-time high. And so I think the impact, both on the elections and the elections on pricing, is probably underestimated right now. Yeah, I just wanted to add something. I'm not good at predicting short-term market action, but I'm great at predicting US government action. And you

guys talked about SAB 121, which to me shows that the large politically connected FIs are just not prepared for mainstream crypto. But to add to what Dave said, which is that these SEC enforcement actions, the new wave against Samurai Wallet, the MetaMask investigation, kind of shows that, well, one thing that we didn't talk about here that I wanted to bring up is that Exodus Wallet was supposed to be listed on the New York Stock Exchange like yesterday. And the day the CEO put out an expo saying we flew out hundreds of people, we were going to celebrate the opening of our company on the stock exchange. And the SEC calls and says, no, this ain't happening. And then so the whole thing's been shut off. And the whole point of this is that where the SEC is going and where the administration and the Democrats are going is we are going to ban self-custody. And that includes Bitcoin.

So the maxis in the U.S. should really wake up and realize that. But I agree with Dave that it's bullish it's going to be extremely concerning in the short term but it's bullish because i think that's going to motivate people as scott as you said earlier young rich and angry are the people who are going to get effed over by this the most so um you know it's it's extremely concerning but i think in the end we'll win if everybody you know keeps keeps putting the pressure on all right yeah i just wanted to say you know when i i'm not actually necessarily opposed to what's happening as far as this regulatory crackdown goes because you know

none of these these services were necessarily uh self-custody or just self-custody. They all offered very centralized services, whether they were, you know, offering order routing or whether they're offering coordination services for a mixer. It's very centralized. And, you know, somebody mentioned Shia. The Bitcoin Shia model, you're just publishing software when you create a smart contract. In the Ethereum world, that's not the case. You're instantiating it. You're essentially paying a server or a bunch of servers to host it.

That's a very different thing. You're an operator at that point in my odds. And, you know, these wallets with this regulatory crackdown, it actually makes it more censorship resistant because they can focus on being an actual wallet and a service interface that many people can plug into, in my opinion. And, you know, David had some, I guess, doesn't agree with me. So maybe I'll just let him say why. Slippery flow problem. I mean, it doesn't matter. Yeah, sure. Whether you're Phantom, MetaMask, whatever, they offer swap services. The fact is, is where the administration, where the rubber meets the road, and we've said this with Isabel and I were talking about this

like a week ago, is they want to make sure that they can get their pound of flesh, you know, that the IRS gets paid, like, you know, smart of the smarts of us all pay our taxes when we realize money back into dollars. And what the wallets are doing are allowing you to trade from one thing to another. The instant you want to try to go back into dollars, you want to be taxed. I mean, it's pretty obvious that stable coins are going to be tax reporting from every one of these central things. But the problem is when you start talking about mixers and the way they're doing it, it's totally unworkable.

I'd love Preston to talk about this because I think it may have been you. I've seen a bunch of people talking about it. The fact is you can't control people mixing things. So you put something through a mixer and then send it to somebody's wallet. And now all of a sudden they're supposed to restrict those coins or they're, quote, tainted or whatnot. I mean it creates an enormous problem. And I just want to go back to SAB 121 again because remember, yeah, know, yeah, it may be people might have said, well, the big banks don't want to be able to custody it. I think that's nonsense. Maybe some

do. The reality is, we all heard post FTX, how important protecting investors are and protecting their assets. And this is literally diametrically opposed to that. And one last thing, when you talk about it politically, sure. You know, we all think that the future in this space, I think it probably would be maybe there'd be 5%, maybe 2% people would disagree with the statement that the future of finance is digital. In traditional finance, it's starting to dawn on people that that is true. But honestly, the regulatory problem, though that without a FIT Act or something like it, it means the U.S. will be behind. And so why is it, why do I believe that Trump is sincere in what he's saying? Because people have convinced him, Vivek probably convinced him that if you don't do it, that the U.S. is going to fall behind in competitiveness and financial services

and in competitiveness for entrepreneurial money. And that is the issue that motivates him more than anything else, is that sort of free market American jobs. And so, you know, I know I talked about a bunch of issues, but the reason I disagree with you is going after wallets is a very bad precedent. And while you want to say they shouldn't be allowed to do centralized services attached to them? I mean, I just don't see how you do that workably. Right. So if you have a centralized mixer and it's part of your wallet, I mean, you know, to me, it's just reasonable that if you're operating a mixer, if you're being a coordinator even for CoinJoin, it's still a centralized service. Right. Let me be clear. I agree with you on the sense of if you provide a centralized service whose job it is to obscure the pathways or basically the money launder, yeah, you're going

to be gone. I agree. And that's what they're all doing, right? It allows someone to swap from, you know, Solana to Tuker Carlson because they feel like that's going to outperform and then they'll bring it back to Solana or back into dollars if they need to raise it. If you're offering the lowest cost price and you're taking commission on that, then you're acting, you're acting as a money service business in my mind. You're not just letting people do it, right? Samurai is not just letting people do CoinJoin. They're optimizing CoinJoin. MetaMask is not just letting you trade. They're optimizing it and taking a fee for that. I think that's a valid point. Yeah. And that's all the government has done.

These guys haven't just published code. They haven't created a browser that allows extensions and other people to plug in these services into it. I think the whole thing is overblown. I think what this is going to lead to is actually better wallets, more true self-custody wallets, and it will just be good for the ecosystem. Shadan, since you have the mic, can you hear me fine, Shadan? Absolutely.

Yeah, it's good to speak to you again. My original question before going down that rabbit hole was about Bitcoin's ecosystem, which is perfect for you guys. DeFi Gold is partnering with the show for today. But can you just say, you were on the panel where we discussed the inflows into Bitcoin, the interest in Bitcoin in this cycle. Can you tell us more, tell the audience more, what is exciting about Bitcoin and why Bitcoin,

despite the limitations? Yeah. So I lost interest in Bitcoin after the block size wars. I, I, I just didn't really think it had any, anywhere to go. And, and I lost interest in crypto actually by, you know, uh, late 2018. Um, just because I, I, I didn't think it would benefit me personally, you know, as it already had as someone who got into the space around 2011. But my interest came back when I saw what was happening with Ordinals. And I was actually meeting with some of the folks at Blockstream, who are obviously very anti that space.

And we had a great conversation. And that's when they told me about RGB and Taproot and how they actually believe that some of the initiatives they have with the smart contracting languages they're building, that Bitcoin can be a scalable platform for decentralized applications. And after I looked into it and did some research and put some, you know, an R&D team together to play around with the technology, it just became obvious to me that this was going to happen. And that, you know, Bitcoin would be a very robust platform for smart contracts. There's been a shift in opinion, even in the maxi space.

You look at somebody like Michael Saylor coming out with a decentralized, you know, identity system, a domain name system. That's a big deal. That's about as far as you'd expect somebody like that to be. And that's where we're headed today. You can actually build full smart contracts using the Rust programming language today on Bitcoin using RGB. the transfer of one asset to another asset completely trustlessly over the Lightning Network. That was a big deal. So all these things are absolutely amazing. And it's actually what got me back into crypto in 2023. After I saw what was happening, you know, that's when we started DeFi Gold and really, you know, think this space is going to rock.

And as I said, there are other ecosystems I'm interested in. yeah make sure you're like that because whenever someone calls it'll just be your so make sure your phones do not uh okay sorry to time but yeah yeah make sure your phone's not disturbed and again reminder for the producer the team make sure all speakers are not uh are reminded to make sure their phones are turned on. But Shadan, what does that mean for the rest of the ecosystem? If really good Bitcoin RGBs can allow smart contracts on the most trusted blockchain there is, then what's the point of having other chains out there? What are problems that Bitcoin cannot solve? Well, there's always going to be

chains. Sorry, can you hear me? You really need to put another stir, man. I know you have had these discussions before, so I'll ask that question to you before Shadan's mic works again. We can hear him. We can hear Shadan, Mario.

Yeah, we can hear him. It's a bit of a glitch on my end. Joe, I'll let you do back and forth until I drop down and back up um go ahead you're done sorry i can't hear you so i have to drop down and go back up but go ahead you're done sorry can you just repeat the question i'll repeat it for you if you want to it's uh basically what do you see the pitfalls are of bitcoin like why do we need other chains or what can't bitcoin handle that we still would need other chains there's there's always that we still would need other chains? There's always going to be room for other chains.

There's going to be different consensus mechanisms, like look at something like Mina, for example, or Mina, whatever you want to call it, that allows such a small blockchain. That will never be possible on Bitcoin. So there's always going to be an opportunity for people to innovate and offer different products. But I think a lot of the values people see as far as Web3 goes, a lot of them can be built on chains like Bitcoin. And as Preston, I think, mentioned, you know, Chia, for example, offers a same model as Bitcoin that's very efficient and can scale incredibly as far as Web3 goes, I think you're going to see more of Chia come to Bitcoin, actually, just because of their models being so similar. And, you know, that's... You say that much expressly. I mean, they turn around and say, listen, we don't give a shit if Bitcoin takes all of our stuff

and implements it, that they literally have built all of their Chia improvement proposals so that Bitcoin can bring them on board. Exactly. And, I mean, Chia script was initially going to be a Bitcoin layer, right? That was the whole concept around it. And, you know, I'm very bullish on Bitcoin just because, you know, companies like Blockstream and Lightning Labs have shifted their stance. They kind of see now that, you know,

you need to support applications. You need Bitcoin to be the time chain and the timestamp server that's universal. And, you know, you need smart contracts. So it's becoming very exciting again. And that's why I'm back in the space. Shetan, you mentioned Chia a few times, and I'm sure a lot of the audience doesn't know what it is. It sounds like you're excited about it.

I'm not excited about it at all. As a blockchain platform, I think they did a lot wrong as far as the launch goes and their plans to do a Regulation A-plus offering. All that kind of stuff was very weird to me. But as far as technology goes, it was created by Bram Cohen, who is the creator of BitTorrent. And it follows the Bitcoin model very closely, except its consensus mechanism is more like Filecoins. In a sense, not completely.

And it uses hard drives and and storage as as as the metric for uh but just going back to my question will they get to defy gold what you're building up bitcoin what your strategy is you and your team and your partners but just going back to what does it mean for other chains like if bitcoin allows for smart contracts if you could do nfts on bitcoin through ordinals you could do do smart contracts. And hopefully, eventually, Bitcoin does scale. They find a way to scale it to allow for more projects to build on it.

Then what happens to other chains that are currently competing against Ethereum now that Bitcoin's in the game? I think a lot of that value is going to move to Bitcoin. Most of the value already is on Bitcoin. It's sitting there and doing nothing. With the ETF, by the way, it changes the dynamics because before value would come into Bitcoin, people felt rich, then they invested in the alts. Now it's going in

a product that doesn't let you do that anymore. It's going in the ETF. So really, you know, what remains is people that are holding Bitcoin and the value there. I think when, you know, what remains is people that are holding Bitcoin and the value there. I think when when, you know, with with colored coins and fact, definitely not with factum. You know, it it changes the game totally because a lot of that value, a lot of these new projects come 2020 to 2025 and later are going to be launching on Bitcoin. Why why would they launch on another chain is the question asked when there's so much value locked in Bitcoin for them to capture, right? Just as far as even if you look at ICOs and whatnot, IDOs, why would you

launch on another chain if you know there's more value on this chain, which is, you know, Bitcoin? And that's why I personally think that 90% of the value will actually flow into Bitcoin as far as an application development environment goes now. That's why it's exciting again, because it kind of feels like 2015 to 2017. And that's the kind of value capture that can potentially happen again. Not just meme tokens and whatnot, but everything being the pillar of DeFi. Okay, and then how are you guys playing it with DeFi gold? Are you just tokenizing gold on Bitcoin? Is it as simple as that?

We have nothing to do with gold. It's just a good domain that I had, and we're a DeFi product. Bitcoin is the gold standard, hence you have DeFi gold, right? Okay, so go ahead. DeFi is a DEx that does um runes um rgb and top root we we have an nft marketplace that does ordinals uh rgb and top root nfts and and we have an lbp launchpad that again does runes top root and rgb today and we're going to add more to it and and the thing is it's they, they're actually decentralized platforms. And that's the amazing thing, because these are the pillars of DeFi. And I believe we're the

first that's actually bringing it to Bitcoin, at least on this scale. People are working on runes projects. People are kind of experimenting with RGB today. But there's no platform that says, hey, you know what? Bitcoin's never going to look like Ethereum that has one foundation and four companies that dictate how it grows. It's going to be like 30 different standards and the power laws will figure out which ones will win. That's the stance we're taking. We're saying we're going to create one user interface for all of them and make it easy to do anything you want and let the technology that can scale and meet people's and let the technology that can scale

and meet people's demands be the one that wins. So there's one thing, there's one thing, the massive amount of Bitcoin that's just sitting there locked with, the holder is not able to do much with it. So essentially when you guys, I'm not sure if you guys have launched already,

but when you add DeFi into the Bitcoin ecosystem, ignore the inflows that come in from other chains or just new money coming in. Just the locked up money in Bitcoin is enough to make this a pretty major development. Absolutely. It's going to be the most exciting development of this year. It's not memes on Solana. It's being able to do everything on Bitcoin. That's going to be the exciting message. Okay. And can you give us an idea of what TVLs you'd expect?

No, I have no idea. But I think just look at every other chain out there and potentially look at them being 90% less and Bitcoin being 90% more as far as the Web3 space goes. And where there's other people trying to do this, you know, trying to come up with the same solution. What's your what's your edge? Well, we've just been working on it for a long time. We've we and long time is very short.

It's a year. This space is very new. But, you know, we're we were one of the first parties that actually came out and started building these technologies. There's others. There's like Diba.io that's doing an NFT marketplace and wallets on RGB. As I mentioned, Bitfinex is doing a lot in this space. Nobody's actually looking to unite them all, right? People have their factions, what they believe in as far as the platform goes.

It's very tribal in this space right now. We're really the only people that I've seen that says, we don't care who wins. We just want to enable it for everybody, and we want there to be a winner. So we're the only people that support all those protocols. And I think that's the difference. Other people could, but they just haven't. and we want there to be a winner. So we're the only people that support all those protocols. And I think that's the difference.

Other people could, but they just haven't. And do you have a... So you've got your own token that's listing. Do you have a listing date? Do you have any exchanges that you could mention? Or is it too early for that? It's too early for that. I'd suggest people follow Team DeFi Gold on Twitter, join our Telegram chat, reach out to me.

We're going to be launching the actual exchange itself, the DEX, on June 27th. At least for RGB and Ordinals, and we'll definitely be on Testnet for people to play with on RGB and Taproot as well at that time. And as far as the IDO goes, yeah, we're in talks with some major exchanges and launchpads. We're going to be launching on our own launchpad as well. Join our Telegram and you can learn more.

Shadad, can I ask a question real quick? I feel like there's a huge learning curve. Like you just mentioned, there's all these different protocols. And it feels like the early days of crypto, again, to me, where you need to learn. Are you just kind of making it easy for people? Like, I know what Yago is working on. I really like it. I'm kind of understanding what you're doing and you're just making it so there's just one user interface and it doesn't matter which standard they're using. Is that basically it? Exactly. And more than just one user interface. We're allowing the same, you know, so doing decentralized exchanges for runes, you know, taproot RGB is very difficult. It relies on Bitcoin's,

you know, ability to do multi signature and partial signatures and whatnot. And to unite all that together so that it works the same across all these protocols was, I think, the value that we really brought to the ecosystem and are going to bring to the ecosystem and uh furthermore making all this work over the lightning network is is really important as well and that's that's that's what we're aiming to do so you know people still need to know the standard or no no no you don't know these these these standards all of them can can work over the lightning network and and just making them work with all the wallets. So it's not just X-verse, it's not just, you know, Unisat, but, you know, it works with Albi, which is very big in the, you know, Nostra community and the Lightning community, for example, having assets be tradable through that. And their developers don't care because they just don't believe in the space right now. They want Bitcoin to be

digital gold, but they're going to change their tune as well. But we're going to help them kickstart that. And again, for us, the only L2 we care about is the Lightning Network. I think most these L2s are going to fail just because the world is oversaturated with L2s today. It's oversaturated with L1s. There's just no need for it. It's time to build applications. It's time to build deep end applications, you know, DeFi applications, decentralized social networking, everything. It's time to build that, but build it on, you know, the one chain that really is decentralized. And to me, that's Bitcoin today. It's funny because you mentioned that and it made me think like I was very bullish on

the adoption for DeFi on Bitcoin. And then when you mentioned what you were just talking about with the different protocols, the standards, I'm like, will the adoption actually happen as fast as I think? I wanted to kind of hear your thoughts on that. I think it's going to happen very fast this year because it's already been in the works for a few years now. None of these are new. They've been around for a few years.

It's just that they're mature enough to actually launch now. And, you know, as I said, Ordinals and what you're seeing with Runes are really the tip of the iceberg. What are the various standards that are competing right now? And how do you expect adoption to happen when it's so fragmented? I know you kind of touched on that question before. I'll make this a final question because I'm very curious. Because there's obviously L2s coming up, but there's various standards coming up in Bitcoin as well.

And even I'm losing track. I think the L2s are completely going to become obviated. They're just not needed. Even Stacks, it's going to go... What was the name of the one I'd invested in very early on? I think it was Rootstock. It's going to go the way of Rootstock and Liquid as well. Nobody really cares about Liquid except for the maxis.

And obviously, it's a blockstream project, and I'm very thankful to everything they've done to enable all these technologies. But I don't believe in L2s like that. I think, you know, which standards will win? Well, we're already kind of seeing which standards are the most popular right now. It's runes and ordinals. And I think they're here to stay. They're not scalable, though. I think, again, RGB with so many companies launching on it. And there's a bunch that I can't even mention, but they're, you know, real A-list crypto ventures that are launching on it. I mean, everybody kind of knows about Tether,

so I don't have a problem saying that. That's going to be a big deal. And obviously what Lightning Labs is enabling with Taproot assets, it's absolutely amazing. These are the three standards I'm looking at now. There's another group that's actually figured out how to create ZK coins, completely private coins, using technologies

very similar to RGB and Taproot on Bitcoin. And I think that future is very, very exciting. It's the same team, essentially. Yeah, Shadan, final comment from... Yeah.

Final comment? Sorry, it glitched out for me so final comment on d5 gold so just for the audience um anyone that's asking you guys tokenizing gold on bitcoin so it's actually the play on words here this is a d5 solution on the bitcoin ecosystem and gold is because bitcoin is the gold standard um shadan final comments for the audience and obviously your token launch where can people learn more about you guys. Yeah, we just invite everybody to learn more about what we're doing

and have a lot of fun this year. Just join our Telegram group, go to defi.gold, you will find it there. We're getting an updated website that looks sick. I know it doesn't look that good right now, the website, follow us on Twitter and I'm always here to ask and talk to anybody about anything. Right. And, you know, any concerns you have about this, the potential of this space on Bitcoin and doubts you have.

I'm happy to talk to anybody and convince them otherwise. Yeah, we did a panel together on this treat during Token 2049 and I went live a few days ago. I think you should all check it out. And I've referenced it a few times. Scott was there as well. Otherwise, yeah, appreciate you bringing us on your cap table. And, you know, should be exciting to see what you guys and anyone else building on Bitcoin and what comes out of it. So thanks a lot, everyone.

We'll see you again on Monday. I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye-bye.