The Wolf Of All Streets - Did SBF Tell The Truth? | Mario Nawfal, Tiffany Fong, Dave Weisberger & Joshua Frank

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

Special guests: Mario Nawfal (IBCgroup), Dave Weisberger (Coinroutes), Joshua Frank (The Tie), and Tiffany Fong (first interviewed SBF after the collapse). Mario Nawfal: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal Dave Weisberger: https://twitter.com/daveweisberger1 Joshua Frank: https://twitter.com/joshua_frank_ Tiffany Fong: https://twitter.com/TiffanyFong_ ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen  GET UP TO A $8,000 BONUS IN USDT AND TRADE ALL SPOT PAIRS ON BITGET FOR ZERO FEES! ►► https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bitget   Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets   Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io  Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe  Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c  #SBF #FTX The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

While the mainstream media continues to put out puff pieces and interviews extolling SPF's virtues and talking about him as the fallen angel who just wanted to do good and made some bad mistakes, citizen journalists and the Twitter and crypto communities have actually been doing the hard work to expose what's happening under the hood with FTX and SPF. It's time that we start ignoring the mainstream media and listening to the people who have actually dug into the data and done the hard work and are telling a true story. Now, I have a lot of people who have been doing that today. We have Mario Nafal, who's hosting the Twitter spaces today at noon with SPF that everybody should absolutely be tuning into.

Tiffany Fong, who's the person that actually broke the story in the first place. She was an early Celsius insider as to what was going on there. And she's the person who somehow got SPF to speak with her, do a phone interview that we've all probably heard over and over again now. And of course, Dave Weisberger and Josh Frank, who are always here to add color and give their perspective as masters of the crypto market and beyond. You guys absolutely do not want to miss this one. Let's go. We host these roundtables, which have been extremely popular. We put them out as audio, as podcasts later as well, so that we get the bulk of the listeners listening to them after the fact. But I think that today is the day.

This is a really big day, obviously. SBF has somewhat come out of hiding, started to agree to do interviews and to, we'll call it, talk his book, because I frankly don't believe that anyone is buying his bullshit at this point. If you've been watching any of the interviews, you know that he's effectively a politician speaking his talking points regardless of what question you ask him. And just a simple rounding or accounting error. No big deal, guys. Have you seen my $8 billion? Oh, I've mislabeled the account. Mislabeled the account. I must have accidentally sent that to the guy who washes my car. I'm supposed to send him $80. I sent him $8 billion. But as I alluded

to in the intro, there have been people who have been working their absolute asses off trying to get to the bottom of this story. And I'm going to bring on our guest right now. Tiffany will be joining in a bit. She's on the West Coast. I got mario josh and dave here now mario right before we started dave asked you hey man have you been getting any sleep uh talk about what it was like obviously you had a very popular twitter spaces already but it very quickly morphed into the place for accurate in the moment information on what was happening with FTX. I mean, you got CZ, Scaramucci, you had Elon Musk in there speaking. So what was that like and how did that happen? Yeah. So we were just doing our normal space and the FTX implosion happened live on the stage and we started breaking it down.

We were watching. The news was breaking while the space was running. And I remember there was one stage where Kyle, Kyle Chessay from Mass Adventures, I'm like, Kyle, are you worried? He's like, Mario, I wasn't worried, but a few seconds ago I got a message that FTX has halted withdrawals, and now I'm worried. So that happened live on stage.

So from that point all the way to you know the bankruptcy the space didn't end and for accounting it almost didn't end except I had to sleep a bit but for two days for 48 hours we didn't stop the space and then we had Elon Musk drop by and that kind of blew it out of proportion but what was happening is everything was you know we were witnessing the the hack remember the hack where 400 million or or whatever was being siphoned out of the wallet? We were watching those wallets live in the space. Didn't get sleep. You know, I think I was starting to almost hallucinate at one stage.

But it was every time I wanted to sleep, what happens is we had my co-host. My co-host would do breaking news. And then every time I'm literally planning to sleep, I'm messaging my team. All right, guys, we're wrapping it up for the day. But ping, breaking news. And then every time I'm literally planning to sleep, I'm messaging my team, all right, guys, we're wrapping it up for the day. But bing, breaking news, and then something major happens, and then we have to cover it, and then more guests come, and then the audience spikes up again. It was a pretty surreal experience. Yeah, I was somewhat secretly on vacation and awake at six o'clock in the morning listening to your Twitter spaces when I wasn't even doing my own streams or writing my own newsletter because I was on vacation. If that's a testament to how compelling

what was happening there was. But Dave, I know you always have strong opinions. You've been listening to the, I call it nonsense, that SBF has been spewing. You've seen this playbook before. What do you make of the narrative that he's spinning right now and the willingness of seemingly the mainstream media to perpetuate it? The only way I could describe it, Scott, is I've seen this before. The people that I've seen this before are people I've seen either with my own eyes at the poker table or when i was growing up my father who played cards with a bunch of guys who were degenerate gamblers and i'll remember there were at least two one in particular i won't name him uh name him his it doesn't matter

he's a family friend uh i watched him literally gamble away the morgan the actual losing everything that they had to sell the house and move and get divorced and yada yada yada and when confronted with this i i don't know why we were there was it some sort of you know neighborhood party he literally sounded exactly like sam yeah i really you know you know I always kept myself under control you know I used to only gamble with this it just kind of got away from me you know whatever but it effectively you know when you when you look at someone who's a degenerate gambler they are all there's a couple of things that that are common the first which anyone who's read the blogs from Caroline or seen interviews with her or Sam they talk about the notion of expected value

and always willing to go all in when you have the expected value. And so I like poker analogies because it's easiest for a lot of people in the audience to understand. If you're playing tournament poker and you are a 55% favorite, more or less a coin flip, you have a slight edge, you don't want to get all your money in with that small edge. You might be willing to push your money in the hopes because you also have the guy might fold. But calling in that situation, unless you have to, because it's later in the tournament, is generally something people don't want to do. Why?

Because if you do it enough, you're going to lose one of those. And obviously, the smaller your edge, the more likely it is you're going to lose everything. But that's a poker tournament where if you lose, you get up, you walk away, you shrug your shoulders, boom, you move on, life moves on. companies that are at stake. Now you've taken that degenerate gambler to a new level. And the only thing I can tell you is his mannerisms of what he's saying sounds just like the guy who's gotten knocked out of a poker tournament and tries to justify his actions or lost his house because he's a degenerate gambler and trying to explain what he's doing. I mean, that's literally the only way I can describe it, except the only difference differences in this case, the Ed in hubris, someone who thought that he was on top of the world actually and objectively was. I mean, it was less than a year ago. We were all in the Bahamas watching him talk with Tony Blair and Bill Clinton and Giselle and Tom Brady, yada, yada, yada. And, you know, if he had let Alameda die, he probably still would be doing that again next year. But instead, it was like, well, you know, let's just risk everything.

That's the way I look at it. Josh, do you think that he actually buys his own bullshit in that regard? I mean, I think, Dave, that you're absolutely right. But, I mean, can you really be that blind and just think that the world was against you and you kind of just made some mistakes? I'm not I'm not I agree with the mentality. I just think he knew what he was doing. Yeah, look, it's a hard question. I think either way, he's a piece of shit, whether or not he buys his own bullshit or not. So, look, I'm not I'm sure he buys some of it. But he definitely knew what he was doing.

I mean, I think to a very large extent, was totally aware of what he's doing. You don't just have a backdoor where you pull billions and billions of dollars of users funds off your exchange to your hedge fund and not know what you're doing. But the whole idea of this is so crazy. Like, imagine that Citadel got acquired by the New York Stock Exchange, right? Everyone would have lost their fucking mind if that happened, right? Like, they had such an edge. And the fact that despite having such an edge, they saw all the order flow. They saw every single hedge fund's trades. They saw every single hedge fund's positions. They knew about any liquidation that was about to happen in the market, and they still managed to lose all that money. It's pretty incredible. I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's, I think

there's an ego part to it where he's just afraid to just say that he just was totally aggressive and an idiot and messed up and lost a ton of people's money. I think he's trying to play dumb because in reality, I think he is dumb. And he's trying to kind of hide that a little bit. I mean, Mario, what's your take on it? Do you think that this is he's saying what he thinks he needs to say? Or do you think he's actually buying into this? Because I agree with everything everyone's saying. But there's that moment somewhere where you say, I'm sending my users funds to Alameda. Right. And whether that's hubris or it's ego or you believe you're a God tier trader, that's a crime. Right. And directly violates the user, you know, the terms of service.

So I can't reconcile that. I mean, Mario, you've listened to more conversation about this than anyone with everybody in the know. What do you think? So first thing I want to bring up is no one is mentioning any of the other players at Alameda and FTX. So we've got Caroline, we've got Dan, we've got Sam Tribruco, we've got other players as well that no one is talking about.

So what we're trying to do is understand, the thing is too big for one person, and we want to know how many other players there were, and who did what. Now what I'm trying to do, and you can see I'm kind of tiptoeing around the question, because I want to try to be very careful not to give any, I don't want to give my opinion until I speak to him tonight. So it's at 5 p.m. EST.

So after I speak to him, I'll be a lot more free to give my opinion. At least I would have had the opportunity to ask him the question because what happened? At the New York Times, the deal book conference, he pleased the big part of the TradFi world and the media world. They were happy with the answers. Crypto hated it. I was going through the comments. I was actually curious. I made a tweet, a

thread about it and asked people what they think. The crypto audience was on the complete other side relative to the traditional financial audience, which is very odd. I don't know why. Maybe, I don't know. I'm not going to make assumptions. So my goal today is to get answers for that audience, to get people from that world to ask the questions that are relevant and get a bit more specific with the questions,

try to get to the truth, to get to the facts. And if Sam is genuinely trying to share what really happened, then we'll be able to get a lot more answers in a few hours versus what happened yesterday. Yeah, I mean, you brought up a great point as to the reaction between sort of the mainstream and the crypto audience. I happen to just bring this up because this blew my mind that Kevin O'Leary is doubling down here. He said, I lost millions in FTX and got sandblasted as a paid spokesperson for the firm. But after listening to that interview, I'm in the Bill Ackman camp about the kid.

Now, Bill Ackman, billionaire, famously tweeted recently that he supported SBF and then immediately deleted it. And now he said, call me crazy, but I think SBF is telling the truth. Right. I mean, that's what we're dealing with here. Did he delete it? No, this one he didn't delete. But about a week ago, right after the whole thing broke down, he kind of said, listen, I think SBF, you know, just a very supportive tweet. Kevin O'Leary obviously said recently, although it was taken a bit out of context, that he would give SBF money again. I mean,

these guys are doubling down right now on. Yeah, it's just kind of a nice guy he's smart and and i believe him it seems like and you've got it it's very different to the contrast to the again i'll give the other panelists the mic but if you listen to the coinbase the o'brien wasn't that kind towards spf if you heard cz when he came on our space implied a few things as well in his recent tweets as well. So again, it just shows the contrast between crypto and non-crypto, which is fascinating.

Well, I think it's important because I kind of travel both worlds, Mario. I spent 35 years in traditional finance, know a lot of the people who actually are in the bowels of traditional finance. And I can tell you that most of the people who actually are in the bowels of the of of traditional finance and I can tell you that most of the people who I know you you basically can ask what was your feeling about crypto before uh in October and before and what is your and and you can that will direct the answer

if you're feeling about crypto before October was uh was it's a scam I can't believe it I hate it or I'm afraid of it you're going to take this as an opportunity to say Sam is telling the truth it's the it's the mentality it's the volatility you're going to use it to blame it you're going to use it uh as a hammer I mean the noriel ravinis whatever if you were saying yeah it looks like there's some cool stuff there there's some of these guys i'm kind of dipping my finger in my tip my my my little pinky in the water uh and you know but i i don't want to own any crypto i don't want to own bitcoin i don't want to worry about my own private keys or any of this other crap but i just want to have an intermediary

these guys this guy seems smart you probably don't want to admit that you were an idiot. And so you're going to take the opinion that Kevin O'Leary has. Because the word I use, I've written about this, is cognitive dissonance. There's an enormously important human factor. We all are trained. We're really good at lying to ourselves. And one of the things that human beings will always do is you're presented with a fact that basically makes you feel stupid about yourself. Most people try to reconcile that that fact must not be true for one reason or another. And I think a lot of that's going on here. People don't want to admit that they were taken in. some of us if you're a good trader so we you know scott you know you understand this as you teach as you preach this traders have to have very very uh basically your ego has to allow yourself to admit you were wrong and you have to be able to admit you're wrong quickly and you have to ignore

this that you have to not face cognitive business to be a good trader but non-trader uh it's really a hard thing to do and so you got a lot of people out there who believe something and now they're trying to to justify that belief it there are so many examples of this throughout you know in classes you know they teach classes on this stuff i think that's what's going on the thing is the people in crypto we all know that he's full of for so many reasons and if you have but if you're ignorant enough not to understand the truth, not to know that you have a risk engine at FTX, you turned it off for Alameda,

you've been telling us how great your risk engine worked in 30% down days. Yeah, sure it worked if half the risk on your book you were ignoring. I mean, we all kind of get this right you know it goes so deep you know the fact is is the only way you could possibly uh justify listening to him and saying i think he's right because this bill ackman knows as much about crypto as well i mean he knows nothing he doesn't understand it. Kevin O'Leary likes the soundbites.

You know, he understands the soundbites. And, you know, I've seen him talk about it. He gets that. But he knows nothing about the inner workings. If you know anything about the inner workings, you can't, you look at this and you go, I can't believe he just said that. I mean, you don't need to know that much about the inner workings to realize that lending $8 billion of your own customers deposits, your hedge fund is

not right. We don't know that that actually happened. Mario's keeping his mouth shut. We don't know. I mean, what we do know is the accounts are commingled. We know that. We do know that the risk engine was turned off. We do know that some human being decided oh God we've lost so much money I can't be collateralized with dollars or Bitcoin or ether anymore I'm going to accept FTT and serum that were in my corporate deep dark Treasury for a rainy day and I'm going to stick those in into the accounts as collateral we know those things happen We don't know which human beings did that. Although if it happened and Sam wasn't involved in it as the CEO, that's gross negligence at best. At best.

At best. But we know those three things happen. We don't know that anyone ever typed commands that says, okay, send this money here. We know the money got lost. you know like we know uh we don't know how much we know Alameda lost a ton on Luna we know they lost a ton on GBPC we know they probably lost a ton on rap teams we know that they were probably going long while the market was collapsing trying to buy the dip and doing directional bets which is is ridiculous in the extreme. We could guess that. We don't know how all the money got lost, but we do know they turned off the risk engine. We do know they commingled funds, and we do know that they allowed swapping of bullshit collateral without a haircut for its ridiculous illiquidity.

Josh, go ahead. I know that you were kind of completing that thought. No, no, no. Look, I agree with Dave. I think that we need more information to come out. I think a lot of this is obviously speculation. But billions of dollars in user collateral must have went somewhere. The Bitcoin and the ETH that was deposited had to have gone somewhere. So the question is, where did it go? And the seemingly obvious answer is that it somehow got into Alameda's hands. And they lost that capital.

And you don't have to be a genius on crypto to know that that doesn't make any sense. That's not right. That has nothing to do with crypto. Right. I would actually argue that even allowing that argument to persist is hugely problematic for us because it allows people to conflate crypto with just flat out fraud, right? It's fraud whether it's in crypto. It's fraud whether somebody's sending you an email from a Nigerian prince and it's fraud if they show up at your door and tell you that you won $10,000 in the sweepstakes and take your money. It's just fraud. It has nothing to do

with crypto. So I don't I can't give Bill Ackman and Kevin O'Leary a pass because they don't understand how a blockchain works. Oh, no, don't get me wrong. I am not giving them a pass. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that Bill Ackman, you know, OK, he understood subprime but and and awesome but the reality is is if you look at this and you've come to the conclusion that there was anything other than fraud and theft then you are on the you are wrong now look there were people you know there are plenty of people and Kevin O'Leary is probably thinking in his mind that Sam Bankman freed is Mike Milken which by the way is really, really unfair to Mike Milken. Yeah.

Milken made a lot of people a lot of money. And when you go back and look at what happened in the 80s at Drexel, he still can't be in the securities industry. But he's done a lot. And he's a smart man. And he's done a lot in other fields. And that was the Milken Institute, et cetera. I think that's the playbook O'Leary is coming from.

I think it's like, OK, I made a mistake. Let's move on. It's like, are you out of your mind? You know, but but that is what I will. I will add, if the only thing you're reading is what the mainstream media is saying and the only thing that you're seeing is SBF's interviews at the mainstream media. Right. You might come to a very different conclusion that doesn't match

reality, right? In that the way that Sam is being portrayed, right? So I don't even know if you can blame people, right? Because if that's all they're seeing, right, you know, the average person is not deep on crypto Twitter, right? The average person is unfortunately not listening to all of these sessions and listening to people that are deep in the crypto space talk about this fraud. And I think the biggest problem that we have is the fact that this isn't being portrayed as a fraud. But I actually asked the question on my Twitter the other day, which is, is this actually a good thing that the mainstream media is distracted by the Harry Potter obsession of Caroline Ellison and all this other stupidity and her fantasies on her blog,

because it's distracting from the fact that the biggest player in this case is the fraud. No one's talking about all the miners that are about to blow up all the other lending that happened. You know, you know, the miners put up their mining equipment as collateral, which is down, down 90 percent. Right. So I think the mainstream media is actually distracted from a lot bigger system, systemic issues that we're not even talking about. So maybe it's a good thing that they're distracted by the stupidity. But like, what do you expect the average person to think if what they're seeing is, you know, Sam being paraded the New York Times for an hour and a half, you know, to give his perspective. Right. Without any line of serious question. I mean, Mario, do you think that that drives people towards spaces like yours

and towards streams and people who are trying to get to the bottom of it? Or do you think that they just gloss over it? I mean, I would imagine that the worse the mainstream media does, the more it helps, you know, people who are looking for the truth find it. I was looking at a chart and I was surprised to see how many people just don't trust mainstream media anymore. The trust was like 70-something percent a couple of decades ago and now it's about 20-something or 30-something percent that trust mainstream media. And the game they're playing is a game of clicks. And some people, social media, a lot of people that call themselves citizen journalists, they're following different theories and stuff that are not based on facts.

So there's two extremes. But what mainstream media is doing is that anything that sounds cool, that sounds sexy, and what's more interesting? Sam Beckman-Fried living with nine people, nine other people, and they're all having sex together? Or Gemini has liquidity issues. What's going to be more interesting for the average Joe? And mainstream media was chasing those clicks and is obviously backfiring on them in this

case and has been backfiring on them for a while. So we're kind of filling that void. We're trying and look, it's not easy for us as well. Like there's so much work that goes on the back end because on one side, we want to share, you know, we want to talk about the things that mainstream media is not talking about. But on the other side, it's like if you mention something, it's not true.

First, obviously, you get screwed for defamation or it's considered FUD. So being very careful, you mentioned, I think Joshua, you mentioned about the other dominoes after FTX. And yeah, it's not getting a lot of attention. There's like the reports we're getting are concerning of how systematic this is.

You can see them in SEC filings of publicly traded mining companies, right? You can go and you can look at all the loans outstanding that these mining companies have. Somebody gave those mining companies the loans. I mean, I know for a fact, a lot of them are crypto lenders some of them are actually insurance companies like uh there are there are public insurance companies that lend to these miners right so some of this is man i'll tell you what i had to deal with man i did it i was doing a space

we're talking about gemini in the position of gemini and dcg okay and there are reporters in the space and we had an insider that saw the data room at Gemini, and he's like, he's telling us the numbers, like Gemini, DCG owes a lot of money for Gemini. And, you know, people were calling it FUD, and reporters are like, Mario, stop spreading FUD, confirm it with fax. I'm like, guys, we have an insider here,

we're trying to verify it, we've verified his identity. Hours later, Bloomberg broke the same news that we were talking about in the space and then another half an hour after that the letter went out barry sent it out to to investors so i don't get it i don't know whether they're doing a lot of dd due diligence that takes a very long or they just don't care about the news that matters i don't know man i'm trying to make sense i think it's i think it's a split like we're working with one of the largest mainstream media publications on a story using a lot of data about what's going on and i will say that the people that we're working with are doing their due diligence but i think a lot of reporters also

don't even know what the word liquidity issues mean right like there are a lot of there are a lot of people that are writing about crypto that don't know how to write about finance right and so you need to somebody fundamentally needs to understand what a hedge fund is how a hedge fund works before they write about the story right like you can't expect um vox and you know you know magazines and stuff to have good takes on the situation but i totally agree with you i mean it's and you can't put him and you can't put mainstream media as all of them together you can't put them all in one basket you know reuters is very different to tmz no i mean i totally agree with you and i think i think some publications haven't kissed his ass but i think there are some

great examples like the new york times uh that that absolutely has and i think there is unfortunately some political issue that seeped into this like the fact that Sam was a big Democrat donor has seemed to swayed part of this conversation. Right. And I think that's unfortunate, but I think that's the case. Right. I think people are ignoring that Ryan Salami donated a ton of money to Republicans, who is the co-CEO of FTX. Right. But I think that that swayed a lot of people and people don't want it to look bad that a big Democrat donor came out and did all this stuff. Right. I don't I don't really care politically one way or another. Right. But I think there's just biases internally that came out and swayed a lot of this.

I think to Dave's point, I think Dave hit on that as well. Right. Where, you know, you know, people don't want to come out and look stupid or dumb as well. I think that's part of it, too. I mean, when you talk about the stuff under the covers the thing and i know josh i know you know this and just like i know it and neither of us are going to talk about names or numbers here but the number of of funds and trading firms that are either out of business or will be out of business because they lost a significant percentage of their customers' funds and will never be able to recover on performance fees is mind-boggling as a percentage. FTX was by far, and it isn't even close, by far was the choice for, we'll

call them not well-capitalized funds because they were the most capital efficient exchange allowing cross-margining they had the best user interface and they had functionality that nobody else had and so a lazy fund setup would be oh well i'll just use ftx rather than trading other exchanges or what's or prime brokers, most of them in the space are smart, and they required their customer to put cash on the barrelhead before they would release funds to them on FTX. So even when they were trading there, a lot of it was kept there because of capital efficiency.

The fact is that there were lots of firms that we know of who were up, significantly up year to date as of October, the end of October, despite how bad the year was, that now, not only are they not up, but they're gone. And this isn't isolated. This isn't anecdotal. I'm talking there are probably, well, there are a lot of firms that are like that. And so a lot of liquidity in the industry is down. Now, money will slosh back in because the underlying assets haven't changed. Right. And we all understand that. But that's important.

And so, Josh, you highlighted miners and I think you're absolutely right to do so. I think that it's great to understand that there's that. But there's also a lot of professional traders and investing firms that were conduits. So I actually I actually have some numbers on that. So this is from one of the biggest custodians in the space that has between a thousand and two thousand clients. I'm not going to tell you the number, but this is from them looking at clients assets. They think about 60 to 70 of the funds will 100% go out of business. Not 10%, not 20% will 100% go out of business on the low end. And there's also a large number of funds out there that are down 80 or 90% from their high watermark.

By the way, for anyone who doesn't know who's listening, what a high watermark for a fund is, is basically the highest amount of assets that you ever had as a hedge fund. You get paid two and 20 generally, 2% management fee. So 2% of the assets that you're managing, you get paid every year, you get paid 20% of the performance fee. The problem is if you're down 90% from the most money you ever had, you're never going to get paid a performance fee anymore. So I think there are a lot of stubborn fund managers out there that are down 80 or 90% that are still trying to stay alive and think that they're going to be able to get past that high watermark again. I don't think it's possible. So I think we are going to see

a lot more contagion. And also keeping in mind the fact that you're now earning a 2% management fee on a lot less money, and it's going to be much more difficult for you to raise additional capital going forward. I think one of the biggest problems that happened in this space is a lot of funds in crypto came out and said they were long only funds, right? And that they could only go long, which means they always had to be in the market. So even if at $67,000, they thought the market was too frothy, they never pulled money out. So regardless of the fact that they had money on FTX, and even if they didn't, right, there's a large number of funds that are just naturally down 70 or 80 percent because of, I think, sheer greed and stupidity and not deciding, hey, let me message my investors. Let me talk to my LPs and say, hey,

maybe this strategy isn't going to work forever. Maybe we need to be able to hedge our risk. Maybe we need to be able to go short. Maybe we need to be able to hedge our risk. Maybe we need to be able to go short. Maybe we need to take some profit off the table. And a lot of people were also marking their books super high on incredibly illiquid assets like Serum and like FTT. The one point I want to add in there, Josh. Guys, sorry. Sorry, guys.

I need to interrupt because Tiffany's here and she's patiently waiting in the wings. And she woke up very early, I believe, to join us. So I do want to bring her on. Tiffany, how are you? You're muted. One second. Scott, I actually have to hop, so I'll let Tiffany be a much better replacement of me.

But thanks for having me on. Tiffany, your mic is muted. I do that all the time. You do the button with the thing and the place and the yeah well we'll get we'll get there to say dave you can fit okay there she is still can't hear you so unfortunately while she's saying it all i was josh's last comment is the vast majority of funds who did actually hedge they're the ones who who had all their assets on FTX because that was the preferred hedging vehicle. Right. That's where they were theoretically shorting or doing. I mean, I'm down.

They have no chance. I said the funds are just screwed either way. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm invested in some of these funds that are down more than me just like closing my eyes and waiting to see what happens with my portfolio because they either doubled down on a bad thing or literally did not know how to hedge. So I can say that anecdotally what he is saying is absolutely true. I mean, these hedge funds have underperformed. But there's I mean, Dave, you've been doing this a while. There's nothing strange there. Right. I mean, even March 2020, the stock market bottom crypto markets bottom forget crypto. The worst performing months in history, arguably by hedge funds were April and May of 2020, when literally all you had to do is get long and accept it was the bottom and make tens of millions of dollars. And they were all still trying to short. But this is different.

I mean, you're talking about, this is something that actually is impacting and bankrupting potentially the smarter funds. The ones who actually didn't know how to trade, who didn't know how to- You know, the geniuses like 3AC. Yeah. I mean, think of it like,

how much money was made on the other side of Alameda's bets? Yeah, I don't know. tiffany give us a test yes you're here thank you thank god awesome so listen i'll let you so scott i i'll let you i'll let you speak to tiffany i just gotta prep for the interview with sam so they're just giving me a call now some of the panelists so i'll let you go man i really appreciate you having me and i'll let you chat to tiffany i think she's got a lot of insight to give. Really quick, Mario, you're at 5 p.m. now. You're at 5 p.m. Eastern time. I know it was originally noon. Yeah, so Sam changed the time a couple of times just because he's had meetings

and I think he had some legal things to sort. So for now, it's at 5 p.m. Eastern time. All right, guys, everybody tune into that i will absolutely be there and listening thank you mario appreciate it man love you thanks bro and tiffany so listen i mean i've had and dave and i have probably sat with spf on this channel many many many multiples of times oh yeah like he was you know he would come on here literally all the time. Everybody's favorite. We loved him.

It was exciting. He would always show up and just actually in what just happened with you, he would show up. His mic wouldn't work. He would pop off. He would come back on. It was just like, you know, everybody, the everyman billionaire. So you obviously have had a close relationship with him so much so that when when he wasn't

talking to anyone. Right. I mean, you were able to get extremely- Were you reaching out as well? Yeah, I kind of didn't, you know, for various reasons. He didn't respond to the few DMs that we had when we were talking right before it happened. He sort of stopped responding.

But I mean, clearly you earned his trust and he said things to you that were, I mean, highly incriminating. I think you could argue. Right. And honest. I mean, what's your take at this point now, having seen like all of the other reporting about it, everybody's heard your interviews, but like, do you think that he genuinely believes it's just bad luck and kind of a couple of mistakes? Or do you think that there was something nefarious here i can't tell if he's just very carefully trying to craft that narrative um or or if he really believes it like i flip back and forth between thinking he's being completely honest and i i didn't let him know ahead of time that i was going to release the audio like i was trying to work with other ways to release it but i was just, I thought that that was the best way to convey everything

because if I relay any of his answers in writing, people think that I just believe everything he says. And I don't know what parts were true or false. Like it seems rather convenient that he's such an intelligent person. But suddenly when he becomes criminal to be intelligent that you don't know what happened you know like so it seems pretty convenient but i also like i don't want to say with like verifiable truth that i know exactly what's going on in his head maybe he really didn't know um it just does feel a little bit convenient and um i don't know i have i'm skeptical um but there were moments that i felt he was being truthful and genuine. And then other moments when I felt like his answers were more sort of PR statements that he thought about prior.'s brought those to the new york times and washington post and he's on stage and he's doing it it's sort of perpetuating the entire thing do

you have an intention are you still in contact are you following up i mean are you asking more questions i haven't spoken to him since since i posted the audio i don't know how he feels about it so um i'm not he's not an idiot, like you just said. I mean, this is, and Dave alluded to this earlier. I mean, this is supposed to be one of the smartest people on the planet. He didn't give an audio interview and answer direct questions thinking that nobody would ever hear

those answers. I mean, that would literally make him fully, like, mentally vapid. I really can't tell. I mean, the way that he found out who I was in the first place was because I leaked audio of an internal meeting from Celsius. And that's like the day that he started following me. So I was like, there must be some knowledge that this is a possibility. I didn't notify him prior that I was going to.

But yeah, I can't tell. He did seem like we spoke about the vox article for example and he was talking to a reporter of course and he did seem seemingly uh was actually distraught that those texts were released publicly but to me i was like well you're talking to a reporter and she was asking you very pointed questions about what happened like it's it like to me it read like an interview, but he expressed being actually upset that those messages were released. So I couldn't tell like if he was being genuine and really didn't know. I don't know. So I'm not I'm not quite sure about that.

So do you think that perhaps the fact that you spoke to him prompted him now to go on this sort of redemption tour, you know, going on to mainstream media and all these things because it seems like his lawyers obviously would tell him to just shut up and do nothing right now right and he mentioned that specifically and in our last phone call um when i like re-listened to it like towards the end he did say like yeah like my lawyers obviously want me to shut up but i'm gonna throw that advice to the wind pretty soon like he said that kind of towards the end of our last phone call when we were kind of saying bye. And then I see that he really was going to throw it off the wind.

Cause then he started scheduling all these like interviews. So I don't, he doesn't seem to care at all what the lawyers are saying. I mean, does he seem to have remorse or have any fear of, I don't know, ending up in prison for the rest of his life you know i felt like i think that his remorse at times felt very very genuine and a lot of the

times he was remorseful were kind of oddly to me off the record like he didn't seem to want to express remorse publicly but it felt genuine when he would express it privately. Does that absolve him of anything that's happened? No, but it did feel that there were moments of genuine remorse. Sorry, there was another part of your question that I think I'm missing. It's fine. No, no, no. You answered it. Absolutely. I guess the next part was whether it seemed cognizant of the fact that he might actually be in legal trouble and there could be ramifications for this. Because I'm sorry, guys. And like, we all move on, which, by the way, is what apparently we've done with Doquan, Kyle Davies, Zuzu, any other billionaire who's now back on their redemption tour. It's fine, right?

It's fine. There's now back on their redemption tour, it's fine, right? It's fine. There's now a worse guy. Does it seem like SVF actually fears there being repercussions or does it seem like he just assumes everything will be okay and people just won't like him for a while? I've asked him about if he was worried

about potentially facing criminal charges and he seemed to, I think he looked at it very analytically and he was like, well, I just don't think it's productive for me to ruminate on thoughts like that. So I'm kind of not thinking about those things. Like that was sort of his answer basically, like that he's, he doesn't find it productive to just ruminate on that. And he was like, there'll be a time and a place for me to think about those

things, but I don't think now is the time. So he sort of evaded the question. But in doing so, I don't know that he's actually that concerned with it. He didn't sound like that was his. Doesn't seem worried. He doesn't seem worried. I mean, so I assume or I believe you're a Celsius creditor, correct? I mean, that's the reason that you started digging into I'm a Voyager creditor. I think everybody here knows. So we are riding in the same sinking boat. I had Voyager stock. I had Voyager stock. So hey, they got everyone one way or another, whether it was just your exposure to the market in general or otherwise.

I mean, this FTX thing to me, it seems different. Celsius and Voyager felt like your everyman was using it because they believed it was a bank. And that was extremely unfortunate. Your average retail person lost their money. With FTX, it feels to me like this is the crypto natives, the people who understand it, who believe even in the ethos of not your keys, not your coins, the actual funds, the huge influencers, you name it. And they've lost everything. Right. I mean,

what do you believe the chances are now having dug into this that people see any money back? Because this is like, this is now the crypto natives who don't even have money to buy crypto anymore. It's tough. And I mean, I think that's even something I spoke to Sam about. And we both can agree, especially after watching Celsius and Voyager's bankruptcy proceedings. Obviously, bankruptcy is extremely expensive. Like, daily and monthly, you're burning through millions or tens of millions of dollars. So, and obviously, FTX's bankruptcy seems far more complex than Celsius's or Voyager's.

So if this bankruptcy truly takes, I don't know, a decade or something to complete before predators see any money, if that's the case, then a lot of the money might be burned through by that time. Or hacked. Yeah. So I mean, if that's the case, then I think that a lot of the money might be burned through and then recoveries might be pretty slim. And obviously for international recoveries already look pretty slim. I mean, international recoveries already look pretty slim. I mean, he flat out said in the interview yesterday

that if they turned on FTX.us right now, they'd be able to pay people back one for one. I don't believe that for a single second, by the way. Yeah, he seems very adamant about that. But I'm like, we obviously haven't seen like real hard evidence to prove that. Yeah, it seems like they wouldn't have bundled it in the bankruptcy if people could have redeemed one for one.

It seems insane. Dave, I see you nodding your head. I'm going to let you jump in here because I know you're not. The crazy thing, if FTX US was completely separate with everything segregated and you had the funds there, then why the heck did they include it in the bankruptcy? I mean, you know, it's like Tiffany, like the person I'd love to talk to about this. But, you know, he's I think I may be. Who knows? Who knows if my radar in terms of evaluating human beings is gone.

But I thought Brett Harrison was an incredibly stand up guy and very, very smart and passionate. And he left in August and in August we were all scratching our heads saying, I wonder why? And he said, well, there's some stuff going on, yada, yada, yada, that he wants to do, etc. I have no idea what he, you know, what precipitated it. But that's the interview I would love to see. And that's the one that'll probably never happen because if I'm Brett and I did leave for a good reason, I'm going to keep my mouth shut because it very well could have been well you could all speculate what it could have been I don't want to do that but the fact of the matter is I mean FTX US I mean look I I didn't lose a lot but I'm a creditor now I guess I mean but what's interesting about the creditor thing that that people have to talk about is it if you had if you were if you were a person or your portfolio and you had, let's say, 2% of your portfolio in Bitcoin and happened to be that you had it on FTX US or you had it on FTX, at this point, you're no longer exposed to Bitcoin. So let's say Bitcoin goes from here up to $500,000 in a decade. And a decade later, you're a two Bitcoin.

You're not getting back a million dollars you're gonna get back let's say you get back everything you're gonna get back thirty two thousand dollars yeah getting back forty grand at best right so the the point it's really important to understand that crypto is a a very small percentage of the overall investable universe and while crypto native people might have been wiped out uh there are there's a lot of people who thought they were long that aren't anymore so all that collateral most of which was in bitcoin and ether uh and of course obviously a bunch of all coins but the fact of the matter is it was still pretty it's always heavily weighted toward bitcoin and ether there is a ton of that that people are just waiting to find out.

Am I really not long anymore? And there's a lot of that going on. So before, if you wonder why the market and this is still a trading show at the end of the day, if you're wondering why the market is held in and seemingly bottomed until all the other shoes drop, like miners having to puke up Bitcoin. If they have Bitcoin left to puke up, which is not entirely clear that there is, you're left with a vanishing of the supply overhang. Because nobody, I don't think anybody believes they're going to get back their Bitcoin.

I'm not going to get back my three Ether that were sitting on FTX us that i could didn't get off in time you know i'm i'm not so if i want to be long three more ether i gotta figure out okay well babe i'm gonna get my dollars off let's just buy three there's someplace else and when this gets crystallized that's gonna happen but we don't really know i mean you're right're right, Tiffany. Bankruptcies take forever. And it's it's it's frustrating. Now, if you think that that doesn't create the let's just say for the sake of argument that Sam manages to escape jail and he has money secreted away. If you think that doesn't create the one of the largest class action lawsuits, that's the other thing that's going to happen here. Yeah, well, if you're Tom Brady and Kevin O'Leary and Larry David and I don't know, you name them, you already have a class action lawsuit against you as Sam sits on the beach in Bahamas. Yeah, so there's that.

But anyway, to me, the second order effects are interesting. The positive second order effect I've already talked about. The negative second order effect is how many funds are going to have to start over and how many talented people out there are going to have to form new businesses because there's absolutely no point in continuing the old business. And so the entire economy is going to turn over again. And that process takes time. Tiffany, I want to pivot slightly just to Celsius because you've been there covering it from the beginning. And it, I think, is giving us maybe a roadmap of what we'll see to some degree with FTX. I mean, where do you think it stands for Celsius Voyager? I mean, now it's like in the past, nobody even remembers the millions of creditors there.

How do you think it stands now for customers there as far as recovery of their assets? I believe last I saw, Celsius had still had about 47% of the coins left. But the longer the bankruptcy goes, I don't know if at some point we might have to sell stable coins. I haven't, obviously like the past like week or so, I've been kind of trying to figure out the SPF stuff. So I haven't read the most recent

filings from last week. But yeah, last I saw, we had 47%, which at the time seemed like very little. But now compared to FTX, I'm like, OK, maybe I'm a little bit lucky in that aspect. Yeah, I mean, at Voyager, we were looking at 72. It was around $20,000 crypto. And they were saying 72%. That could even rise. Of course, FTX was the bailout and now, you know, it's down to 75%. So that number is probably 65. CZ did publicly state that he'd be placing a bid on Voyager. I don't know if it's the platform itself or just the assets. And INX said they were today as well as Wave. But I mean, I think in the hierarchy of levels of potentially fucked,

Voyager, you're probably in the best shape. Celsius is probably second. And I would say that FTX is a very, even if there's only three, they're in like 10th. Right. Although that means that FTX US is completely 100% solvent. So I mean, if he's being honest, then I guess ftx us might be in good shape but i don't know that don't know that that's the case but um yeah i mean before all this he obviously started following you he started talking to you i mean would you have considered him a friend and so because i then obviously it took you know a week a week and a half for you to decide to release it so i mean were you concerned that basically you were going to like violate his trust?

I was. Yeah, I was. I wouldn't say that we were like friends that go way back or anything like that. We'd spoken, I think, on the day that I leaked the all-hands meeting, that Celsius' all-hands meeting we spoke. And then he commented on a couple of posts. So we had like really brief interactions. So I wouldn't say that we're close friends or anything um but i think we'd seen each other's posts and stuff like that um but yeah i was a little bit concerned and i didn't know if it was something that was ultra

private but then it was more when he started saying yes to all the um interviews that i was like oh did you want me to like did you, did you, you wanted your story heard? Like, cause I was nervous. I didn't want to like betray him or anything like that. So that's why I sat on it for two weeks. But yeah, when he started saying yes to all these speaking engagements, I was like, oh, okay. I have something that you've spoke on.

Maybe you sort of in some way want this out there. I don't know. So that's kind of why, part of why I was more open to just sharing it. Yeah. Listen, I would have probably described it the same way. You know, a guy I talk to pretty frequently in DMs would invite him on things, would ask his opinion on things. And so I think that everybody was hoodwinked. Listen, I have a history here. You clearly with Mashinsky and SBF. I counted Steve Ehrlich a friend at Voyager and that obviously went poorly. But Dave, I mean, you've said publicly that all these guys, never necessarily

SBF, but we've talked about that you think they're basically criminals and they stole their user funds or misappropriated them and they should go to jail. I assume you think the same of Sam. I mean, well, yes. I mean, I just don't know how many of them should go to jail and who did what. I mean, the truth of the matter is, is theft is theft. And, you know, just because he's just playing the same playbook out. I mean, at the end of the day, he successfully built, convinced people that he was worth 30 billion. Well, he personally was worth 15 and his company was worth over $30 billion by constantly talking about the moral high ground. The reason he's ignoring his lawyers is because what worked for the last three years to build

himself up into where he was, was this outrageous public personality. And if in fact we were in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, he'd be winning because, you know, he's on Good Morning America today, you know, talking about this stuff. And it's like at the end of the day, at a mere minimum, he probably figures, OK, well, you know, maybe he'll have to Mike Milken and for, you know, a year in club fed and then he'll have his book deal and the speaking engagements and he'll come back and no one will question the fact that, you know, he has money and who knows whether it's in Bitcoin wallets sitting all over the world. We have no idea where, you know, what he's squirreled away or how he squirreled it away. He probably figures that as long as he can be this angel in the public eye, that he can get away with it.

I find that despicable, to be honest with you. I mean, he's admitted it. I mean, you know, the famous Maya Angelou quote, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. He told you, he told everyone he was playing the world. He was playing a game. He told Tiffany. That's who he told.

That's right. Wait, are you referring to the Vox article? Well, I mean, I know it was in the Vox article, but even in yours, I mean, he alluded to the effect of altruism stuff. I mean, it's pretty clear that- we all have causes that we believe in but he's the he basically tried to pull this act that said that he cared about that more than anything else at the same time he was using customer assets to prop up his own vanity play of his hedge fund i mean come on but you know

in general i think that the bottom line is this. I mean, there is a lot in the world of crypto. I am not a Bitcoin maximalist, but when it comes to store of value, I'm a Bitcoin maximalist. We've talked about that. I think that Bitcoin is a very important innovation for many reasons. We're not going to go into it. I don't think this lessens it. If anything, it increases it. It shows the ability to self-custody how important it is. And I think that is extremely important. And right now, as we speak, they're having this hearing in the first of many hearings on Capitol Hill. The goal here for the crypto community needs to be, whoa, slow your roll. Let's regulate it. We want real regulation, but what we don't want is to stop self-custody, to put DeFi out of business or to do anything that will stop or decrease the things that are truly innovative about crypto. And here's the here and the perpetual swap,

the perpetual swap, which is an amazingly good innovation. If you think about how many people in retail pay so much money and lose so much money trading options to get leverage as opposed to perpetual swap. So it's an incredible innovation financially. And then Sam with the, the, get leverage as opposed to perpetual swap. So it's an incredible innovation financially. And then Sam, with the cross-collateralization and the engine and the real-time liquidation engine improvements that they did, it did make it a better market. Now, the fact that he turned it off for his own fund doesn't change the fact that it's a better model,

but it's going to set it back. And from a regulatory perspective, to get that into the U.S. capital markets, now it's going to be a long it's a long road to hoe. And that to me is one of the other tragedies here. Listen, I know we only have a couple more minutes, but you allude to the Senate hearing that's happening today. And many of the politicians sitting in that meeting received donations from FTX and SBF. Right. I mean, we saw kind of the better O'Rourke apparently returned his million dollar donation. But now knowing, I think, with zero doubt that those donations were stolen user funds, whether intentionally stolen or an accident, or he realized it. Do you think that every single one of those donations should be returned into the bankruptcy hearing so that they can go back

to customers, even if it's only one or 2%. I mean, Tiffany, what do you think? I mean, as a creditor, I mean, I'm very familiar with wanting everything clawed back. I just don't know if it's, I think it'll probably take a really long time to find out if those things can be clawed back in the first place. As a creditor, I'm not an FTX creditor, but I'm sure that I would feel that I'd like that stuff clawed back. I just don't know if it's possible at this point. By the way, it was with you that he said that he had given an equal amount to Republicans as Democrats and had just done it basically as dark donations. I mean, do you think that was a talking point because he's getting so

much heat? Or do you think that, I mean, he legitimately gave tens of millions to Republicans and just didn't mention it? I wasn't, I don't know that he gave it to me as a talking point. He sounded honest when he said that, but I also obviously don't have proof of his dark donations being dark, of course. So there's no other- The very nature of dark donations. Yes. It didn't feel like that would be an odd thing for him to just make up on the spot but also i mean yeah there's no evidence so i i um it's not something that i have a strong opinion on uh but i didn't um yeah i don't know why he'd even say that if it was completely false but i guess i just feel like we got played i just feel like like i i feel like we

were watching a character and it was all completely fake right and it was like a perfectly well contrived i bought it right you bought it we bought it but uh the you know the vegan effective altruist who is the biggest democratic donor and and then you just dig into it, and it seems just all false. Well, that question he answered pretty quickly and seemingly directly. I feel like I struggled more with, you know, whenever I asked him anything about user funds. Those are the questions where I felt he was being a bit evasive and sort of doing a figure eight. With Sorkin as well. Yeah, yesterday as well.

He did not answer that. I didn't knowingly commingle funds, never answered to the time when it happened. Because we had two interviews and he gave me like a similar response about the use of FTT as collateral as he did with me directly asking about how user funds and when user funds got used at Alameda. And it kind of was the same response about a bank run and the court, like, the assets being correlated. I don't know, it felt like it wasn't directly answering the question. So those are the questions that I'm more wary of his honesty. And it's tough to parse through what parts he was being completely dishonest in or or honest in and um yeah but i felt he had more pause on those questions than like the democratic question or his donation question he answered pretty rapid rapidly so it felt slightly less dishonest but i don't know

so dave yeah i mean can't we just say that the reason he's not answering questions about commingling funds is because that's where it's directly fraud if he says that he knowingly did it. I mean, that's literally just saying I'm going to jail. Right. I think that that given the terms of service, that is absolutely the truth. I think that that him trying to argue, get plausible deniability so that he won't get indicted is really the issue. But that said, I mean, if he really didn't think he had a chance of going to jail, why wouldn't he have gone in person to New York? The answer is because he probably knew that there was a huge risk that

someone in the United States, in any of the states where they operated, or, you know, like, you know, Texas is the first one to subpoena him. But that's not until February. I mean, who knows? Look, I'm not a lawyer. You know, at the end of the day, Bernie Madoff was indicted within 24 hours. And that was that. I think that this is different. And, you know, there were so many things. I mean, you mentioned Do Kwon and those guys. I mean, Do Kwon has, you know, the Koreans are after him. But the truth of the matter is Do Kwon's crime was lying and manipulating and, you know, and overly marketing.

But no one has accused him of theft. None of the other ones. You know, Suzu and Kyle. I said that on my stream yesterday. Yeah, I said that on my stream yesterday. Yeah, I said that on my stream yesterday. Jeff Vaughn's probably the least criminal. Now, I wouldn't trust them with, you know, with the money, investment money from a lemonade stand. But the fact of the matter is, you know, they could redeem themselves.

If anyone invested in them again, then you have to have your heads examined because they obviously have no notion of risk. And, you know, traders risk and you know traders understand you know the notion to cut losses and they didn't and so whatever just like sam i would never trust him to run investments you know you want to trust sam at some point in his lifetime to invent processes uh that have nothing to do with touching people's money sure i mean he's smart he invented some brilliant processes but at the end of the, he was running something that entrusted people's money to it. He told them they were trusted. He put out ads in the Super Bowl. He talked with ex-presidents and prime ministers about it. I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, the old expression, go big or go home. Well, he went big. And so how he could possibly how anyone could possibly.

I mean, it's mind boggling how anyone could possibly assume that someone like that doesn't know where money is going. He knew every loss. I mean, frankly, we know. I mean, Tiffany, I think you asked him about it. You know, they were trying to raise money in June after Luna. You think that was a coincidence i mean come on i mean you know it's like really i mean you're trying to believe him it's like i would sooner believe that marvel's universe is real and and thanos actually exists then you know then then believe that's actually more credible right it's more credible to believe there's a multiverse and we're just in one of them that doesn't have magic or doesn't have this or

that that is much more credible than believing that the world's richest person under 30 didn't know that that he lost money on luna or didn't know that gbt widening to a 45% discount when he's holding gobs of it didn't cost him a lot of money. I mean, come on. It really is the level of belief that you have to have. And I'm a huge sci-fi and fantasy fan, right? I love all those movies and books, etc. But you have to suspend disbelief when you want to be entertained. Here I was watching for an hour with Andrew Ross Sorkin yesterday and I couldn't suspend disbelief. I'm sorry. I mean, this was dumber than in a work of fiction. This would be considered incredible

and no one would believe it. So why the hell are anyone believing it, you know, believing it in real life? I mean, I don't know. I mean, no offense to Kevin O'Leary, but my God, you're using him to evaluate investments and he's believing that. I mean, come on. It's impossible. Yeah, but he's a shark. Just kidding. So I know that we all have to go. I just want to make one point.

Dave, you talk about how Bernie Madoff was immediately indicted within 24 or 48 hours. What people don't remember, if you go back and actually watch the footage, when Bernie Madoffff would come out of his house reporters would punch him in the face while they were taking pictures of it i mean he literally like when he would try to walk down the street with security people were throwing things at him punching him you know and spf is like the humble vegan that tried to save the world but oops i just don't get it i I am sure that the hundreds, if not thousands of people who will have lost their jobs and have to reinvent their careers or, and all of that. There are a lot of angry people out there. I mean, look, forget his own employees, which, you know, they didn't know. I mean, we're, you know, look, we're, we're still hiring. We're, we've been,

you know, CoinRoutes has been the turtle and the turtle in the hair. We've been growing consistently for five or six years. We didn't do anything. Meteoric. We didn't touch customer funds. We watched Voyager go to the moon. You know, we watched all these things go, but we're continuing to build. Right. And so we're talking to people and we talk to at my adventure Miami,

something Francis Suarez started in the mayor of Miami, started down here. And so we talked to a few people from FTX and they found out about it on Twitter. Yeah. Put that in your head for how ridiculous. Yeah, absolutely. Tiffany, go ahead. Oh, no, I am just really curious as to how all this public PR and all these interviews and him saying that he really didn't know. I'm wondering if it will sway public sentiment and have people really believe that that's the way. It will. It will.

Of course it will. Of course it will. Suzu's talking about his surfing and the new podcast he's going to start. And Kyle Davis is painting amateur Van Goghs. And half the people responding are like, cool, man, it's nice to have you back. So yes, that's what I believe will happen. Yeah.

I really do. Well, Tiffany, so in this journey, what's next before we go? Like what's next? Where can people follow you? Do you have plans to continue sort of digging into all of these platform collapses i am just gonna take a break because man i've seen the heat you get i'm really enjoying it

yeah i do i i'm enjoying it i really wasn't setting out to do this but i think a lot of things have plopped into my lap and i'm enjoying it so i probably hopefully more. I don't know if Sam is mad at me, but anyway. Yeah. I have the audios of our phone calls on my YouTube channel. I think it's just, it's just Tiffany Fong. And then my Twitter is Tiffany Fong with one underscore. Well, I encourage everybody to go check that out, watch them. And, you know, listen, Dave's been here probably as many times as me at this point, but I want you to know that you're welcome back anytime. And we would love to keep you, keep us, have you keep us in the loop, I should say, as to what's going on. So if ever you just need a place to vent or make some jokes, it tends to be what we do here.

This is very fun. Feel free to join. I'm glad. And it's, I mean, I'm glad that we're a few weeks removed now. So there can be a bit of levity about it. Because I think, you know, all of us are in pay. I know you as a Celsius creditor, I can say from Voyager, you know, the pain does sort of sort of numb over time. I got over the L like not too long after I'm just like, I'm an idiot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's brutal. But I do, I do think that

that will happen for people who lost money on FTX, but that should not, should not sway us from seeking the truth and making sure that wherever it is, I'm not making claims that justice is served. So, uh, thank you everybody. Um, Dave, we had Josh, obviously, Mario, who you guys have to check out the spaces when that happens. I know that everybody in the world is going to be on that probably listening and follow everybody here. I think tomorrow, don't quote me,

I think we have Paolo Arduino from Tether. You guys have seen him on the show many, many, many times. Seems that, you know, after years and years and years of Tether FUD, I usually just have him on and he's able to somewhat dismiss it within 30 seconds. But we'll see again since now we're hearing that FUD, what he has to say. Can't wait to have that conversation. I will see you all on the spaces. Tiffany, Dave, thank you once again.

Truly, truly appreciate it. Thanks, guys. I'll see you all tomorrow. Great talking to you. Bye. Let's go. it. Thanks, guys. I'll see you all tomorrow. Great talking to you. Bye.