The Wolf Of All Streets - ETH 2.0’s timeline with David Hoffman, co-founder of Bankless

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Those who don’t understand Ethereum believe it was simply created, however, when you fully understand it, you will realize the asset is simply a portal to a new future that is being discovered. Bankless co-founder David Hoffman believes that Ethereum is lifting the archaic veil from the legacy system, replacing the good, bad, and ugly on a daily basis. Hoffman explains that in order for Ethereum to establish itself as a financial revolution, the necessary major upgrades as we transition to 2.0 will inevitably continue to have growing pains. Achieving this milestone, although not a simple task, is critical for the better of global finance. Follow David Hoffman: https://twitter.com/TrustlessState In this episode, Melker and Hoffman discuss a range of topics including: The controversial EIP-1559 The power of Ethereum miners ETH 2.0 timeline The minimal viable merge “Ethereum killers” Monetary Maximalism Synthetic Ethereum The shipping container metaphor Ethereum splitting in two Berlin and London hardfork The NFT revolution --- VOYAGER This episode is brought to you by Voyager, your new favorite crypto broker. Trade crypto fast and commission-free the easy way. Earn up to 9.5% interest on top coins with no lockups and no limits. Go to https://thewolfofallstreets.link/voyager and download the Voyager app and use code “SCOTT25” to get $25 in free Bitcoin when you create your account. --- Mina Protocol Mina is the world's lightest blockchain, powered by participants. Rather than apply brute computing force, Mina uses advanced cryptography and recursive zk-SNARKs to ensure a super-light and constant sized chain, that allows participants to quickly sync and verify the network. The team behind Mina is backed by VCs such as Coinbase Ventures, and Mina's adversarial testnet was the largest public testnet outside of ETH 2.0. To get involved ahead of Mina’s mainnet, visit https://thewolfofallstreets.link/mina --- Matcha 0x Matcha is the easiest way to trade in DeFi. Matcha enables traders to seamlessly swap tokens using 20+ aggregated liquidity sources that deliver better prices than going to a centralized exchange or Uniswap. Connect your wallet and start today at https://thewolfofallstreets.link/matcha Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co

What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. Ethereum is the number two cryptocurrency by market cap and is still wildly doubted, misunderstood, and mischaracterized. To add to the chaos, Ethereum's network has been congested, forcing developers and traders to pay ridiculous gas fees just to utilize the network. Major upgrades are soon approaching, and rumors have started to circulate about growing division in the ecosystem over those upgrades. As an investor, I'm very bullish. You definitely all know that I've been publicly dollar cost averaging into the asset for months, but even still, I have questions. Today, I have an Ethereum expert to tell us everything we need to know. David is the co-owner of Bankless and an avid Ethereum supporter and researcher. David Hoffman, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Scott, happy to be here. Thanks for bringing me on. Awesome, man. Of course. So once again, you're listening to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast where two times a week I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, art, sports, politics, anyone with a good story to tell. This podcast is powered by my good friends at Blockworks. You can visit them at blockworks.co for access to the highest quality information in the space. And if you like my podcast, follow me on Twitter, then you can check out everything else I've got going on at thewolfofallstreets.io. Now to get into today's episode. So to give people context, yesterday was

actually the Coinbase listing. It was absolutely wild, as expected. Bitcoin also fluctuated. But at the end of the day, Ethereum seemed to rise above both and outperformed Bitcoin. Are we finally starting to see Ethereum take the lead and take its turn here? I really, really think so. And that's because there has been a bunch of just protocol improvements and developments that we've been talking about in the Ethereum ecosystem. Yet there's always some skepticism as to whether Ethereum will actually be able to deliver on its promises. I remember in 2017, staking seemed to be around the corner. I remember trying to buy as much ETH as possible in 2017, because I thought in 2018

that I would be staking. Turns out it would take over three years to get to that point, yet it is finally here. And then the next protocol update, which I'm sure we're going to talk about more in this podcast, is EIP-1559, which changes the way that Ethereum manages transactions and gas payments, where we go from taking those gas fees and sending them to the miners or in the future to the stakers, and instead we burn them. And it's a very powerful narrative tailwinds for Ether, the asset, and Ethereum, the economy. And that is coming sometime in July or maybe early August. And so some people are still skeptical that Ethereum will be able to execute on its promises. Yet also, at the end of the day, Ethereum has executed on some of the very early preliminary proof-of-stake networks.

And there seems to be no really further evidence as to why the rest of the Ethereum developers are not going to be executing on further promises. And so I think this rotation that we've seen into Ether in the last week or so, are people starting to get ahead of that? Like, what if all of the Ethereum bulls out there, what if the narrative that they have been chanting for the past few years actually does come into reality? And I think that's what we are seeing reflected in the markets today. And why do you think there's so much controversy over these future updates? I mean, it's obviously obvious with the IP, miners don't want to make less money. So obviously when they're burned and those are not being sent directly to them,

there's a conflict, but it's definitely healthy for the long-term prognosis for the coin itself, right? I mean, everybody loves a deflationary asset or at least a deflationary aspect. Right. Yeah. So I think people don't really correctly weight the level of power that Ethereum miners have over the Ethereum blockchain. And this is largely a values or just design principles debate that you would find between Ethereums and Bitcoiners. Bitcoiners believe miners have a ton of power, and that's probably because they do due to the commitments that Bitcoin has to proof of work in ASICs. Ethereum has no such commitments either at the protocol level or at the social level, which I think is really important to miners. Miners have always been treated as a

service provider and their job is to provide security for Ethereum. But it's always been in the social contract of Ethereum that we are migrating to proof of stake. And so miners can choose to validate the Ethereum network or to not choose to validate the Ethereum network, but they do not get to choose the direction of the Ethereum network. That is left to the hands of the Ethereum community and the Ethereum core developers. That makes perfect sense. So like you said, though, you know, 2017, same, I thought I would be staking Ethereum very quickly. It took a few years. And I think there was also some miscommunication. A lot of people thought that because you could start staking, Ethereum 2.0 had launched. Obviously not the case. So what do you see as the timeline for Ethereum 2.0? And for people who might not know, what are the improvements that are coming

with Ethereum 2.0 beyond the staking that we've already seen? Right. So Ethereum 2.0 really starts to come into fruition. And it's a process. There is no event where like all of a sudden Ethereum 2.0 is here. The next event that happens is,

I would say EIP-1559 in August. But really the cool part I think is coming after that, which is what we call the merge. And that is where the proof of work chain merges with the proof of stake chain that is currently going on, which is where Ether staking is happening. And that is where we strip out proof of work and replace it with proof of stake. And the old Ethereum chain, the current Ethereum chain that everyone is playing on gets merged into the proof of stake chain and proof of stake. And the old Ethereum chain, the current Ethereum chain that everyone is playing on, gets merged into the proof of stake chain, and proof of stake is the new consensus. Now, that was previously slated for some time in mid-2022. But Justin Drake, who is a core Ethereum

developer, has proposed this minimum viable merge, which could even be accelerated at the whim of the community, because he says the community wants this and he is not the only one. Vitalik also believes that the community wants this as well as Danny Ryan, who leads the charge into coordinating ETH2. There seems to be a decent amount of consensus between Ethereum core developers that we can have what we are calling a minimum viable merge. And that could be even as soon as late 2021 or early 2022. And at that point, that is where we remove mining and replace it with proof of stake. And ether issuance goes from something like 4.5 million ether per year. These are rough ballpark estimates, issuance to compensate

miners. And that drops down to between one or 0.6 million Ether per year. So a very significant drop in Ether issuance. And something that I don't think people really appreciate much at all is that if you are compensating miners with the issuance of your coin, miners, by definition, have high costs, high electricity costs. Proof of work is really a competition to how much cost can you really absorb? And what ultimately that translates into is selling pressure on the unit that is being mined. And so really Bitcoin and proof of work Bitcoin is really secured by miners mining Bitcoin

and then selling it. Proof of stake is secured by stakers staking Ether and not selling it. And so what the net result of this is that there's between 3 to 3.5 million Ether that is not sold every single year into the future. And that is another one of these things that I think people are starting to wake up to and starting to realize that all of a sudden with proof of stake and the merge, there's all of a sudden going to be significantly less selling pressure on Ether, the asset, systemically into the future. That makes total sense. What I also find interesting is going back again to 2016, 17, when we thought staking would happen. At that point, staking on Ethereum would have been the only way to gain yield. But since then, even before we were able to stake Ethereum, we have all these third-party platforms,

even the Voyagers and the Celsius and the Nexos and the Blackfives, where you can earn equal or more yield and you're not locked up. So you have to be a pretty hardcore Ethereum supporter to actually want to stake it in the Ethereum smart contract and have less flexibility because your commitment is much longer. Right. And that's just the benefit of centralized service providers, right? They can take the hard stuff and they can make an easy UI UX for it. I'm actually particularly bullish on some of these same service providers having that same service being provided inside the Ethereum app layer. There's a project called RocketPool, which is true to the ethos of Ethereum, where it wants to be a decentralized staking network using Ethereum's app layer and using the RocketPool app. And all you have to do if you want to stake your Ether, all you would

have to do is you would go to Uniswap with your Ether and trade it for REth, which is a tokenized staking representation of staked Ether. And if you do that, you are adding Ether to the RocketPool staking platform. And RocketPool is its own decentralized network of nodes. So you aren't actually committing to a centralized staker where you're just staking with Coinbase or a Celsius, but you're actually staking inside of Ethereum's app layer in a decentralized fashion. And that UX is so simple. Everyone knows how to trade on Uniswap. All you have to go do is trade your ETH for our ETH. And that ETH is being staked on Rocketpool. And you're getting maximum yields that way as well. I mean, so does that sort of like indicate, and I've heard this from other guests, that sort of the future of Ethereum

is largely on layer twos and all of the apps that are being built on top of it, which will allow it to scale really more than Ethereum itself. Do you agree with that? Yeah, 100%. And we've seen so many ETH killers come and go and they come and build their project and their platforms live and they have the scale and they have all the technology.

But what's the dilemma about this is that you can build, anything you can build as an L1, you can build as an L2 on Ethereum. And there's so much liquidity. It's build that build as an L2 on Ethereum. And there's so much liquidity, it's so many assets, so many users on Ethereum, that it's easier to just build an L2 and tap into that power. Because when you build an L2 on Ethereum, you're closer to the heart of the Ethereum economy. And we know that the Ethereum economy is very hot. And so it's

rather than getting people to, you know, take their assets, put them into a centralized exchange, swap them out for a new L1 blockchain and depositing it over there, it's easier to just deposit it to a Starkware DYDX rollup or an optimistic rollup or something like this. This is closer to all the economic activity. It's an easier experience to go on to an L2. And there's no reason why an L1 couldn't just become an L2. And that's what we're starting to see with some of these roll-ups. Yeah, I use the term Ethereum killer,

which has been around four or five years. Right, yeah, certainly EOS. And then most recently the Cardano run, obviously, I think seemingly for some reason, Cardano has been like the normie catchphrase across the world. Like the person who cuts your hair is telling you, Cardano has been like the normie catchphrase across the world. Like the person who cuts your hair is telling you about Cardano now. Right. Right. But none of them have even put a dent as of yet.

Well, I mean, Cardano doesn't even have smart contracts. I'm very skeptical on Cardano. There's no application there. All you can do is stake and maybe send. There is no app layer. There's no assets. There's no trading. There's no Uniswap. I will put on my very skeptical hat and call Cardano perhaps a blatant scam. Well, that's definitely a next level that I wasn't prepared to take it to, but you said it, not me. So that's fine.

But what about the, I mean, there's a lot of networks that people are very bullish on. But yet again, it seems everyone's generally foregoing them and building on Ethereum. And there are very specific things maybe being built on those other layer ones, but nothing at scale, right? Yeah, I will talk positively about things like Polkadot. Polkadot, I think, is a viable alternative L1

that does not have some of the fake marketing that I see going on with Cardano. I would lump Cardano right in with Ripple. That's next level. What do you make of what's happening with Ripple now too? Because it's also off to the races seemingly price-wise. Yeah. For some reason, there are these cohort of assets that really attract the newbie people that buy into the narrative where XRP is going to be the new currency of the world because banks are going to use it, which makes no sense when there's something like stable coins out there, specifically stable coins on Ethereum L2.

Nobody wants to transact between banks using XRP when they can transact between banks with dollars. People want dollars. They don't want XRP. And so the XRP is, in my mind, perpetually backed by speculation against other speculators, right? It's really just a Ponzi game. And I'm a fan of Ponzi games. But at the end of the day, we know that this Ponzi game of XRP is just, it's destined to fail. XRP is a centralized company masquerading as a crypto asset when it's really just a centralized database. You brought up one of the most important things, which obviously is stable coins, because, you know, eliminated those narratives for most coins, because as you said, people want dollars. They're fast. They're easy to understand. Whatever. Right. So they work. But actually, you know, at this point, I was surprised to find out that even Tron is being used to send stable coins quickly and cheap because gas fees are so high on Ethereum. Right. Right. So, yeah. So I want to talk about gas fees, really. I mean, do you think that this is sustainable?

How soon until it will be fixed? Why are the fees so high? Because that's obviously, that's what everyone's talking about now. Right. So there's really two things about the Ethereum protocol that it tries to uphold the most. And it really just boils down to accessibility. Proof of stake is a consensus system that is designed to make accessing the consensus of the network truly accessible to everyone. All you need is Ether and a laptop, and you can participate in consensus. And this is in direct contrast to proof of work

ASICs, where you need a at-scale operation that's, you know, millions and millions of dollars in Aave, that takes $100. And if you have, you know, even a decently sized portfolio at perhaps $10,000, $100 transaction fee just to take one action is too much. That's far too much. Even simply sending Ether costs between like $4 and $6, which, you know, is not the future that we envisioned. And that's why Ethereum has committed to certain scaling technologies, specifically with sharding at the base layer. And that's the final version of Ethereum 2.0. That's at the very, very end. And that is where we can actually generate roughly 64 times as much L1 block space, but it's really going to be L2s that really provide a user experience that allows people to touch the L1 blockchain. And being able to have the user actually execute a transaction on the L1 is really, really important for the values and ethos of crypto assets and cryptocurrency as a whole, because this revolution is about democratizing

access. And if you just need a centralized service provider to pay your gas fees to touch the L1, that's not the cryptocurrency revolution. And so what could happen is the scale on L2 becomes like, and Aave is already on L2 on the Polygon network. And so interacting with Aave on Polygon is under a dollar. And then what happens is that Aave, the Polygon L2, which is a trust-minimized L2 that directly reports back to Ethereum, when all of these people are ready to go back to Ethereum, it bundles up hundreds or thousands of users' transactions into one transaction on Ethereum. And so it's really the shipping container metaphor where not one user is making one

transaction. 10,000 users are sharing the same transaction costs and they are getting the same level of assurances and guarantees of the decentralized Ethereum network. And that is a harder problem to solve. And that is why we are seeing stable coins being used on Tron because it's just a temporary fix. Well, gas fees are really, really high right now.

Let's just use Tron because all we have to do is send payments, blah, blah, blah. Gas fees are low. We'll just use Tron because all we have to do is send payments, blah, blah, blah, like gas fees are low. We'll just use that. Over the long-term, I expect these solutions to find themselves naturally closer to the heart of Ethereum's economic activity by using Ethereum L2s.

Yeah, I love Polygon. Well, Matic still in my mind, but Polygon is amazing. But to that end, you can see why it requires a bit of a leap of faith for your average person who wants to trade with $100 on Uniswap, but it gets hit with a $70 fee to do so. Oh, and by the way, sometimes it fails and you lose your $70 and have nothing left. Right. So it's great to talk about in theory. And listen, I know there's cheaper options,

but I use Uniswap. I use Matcha as well. But like I go where there's liquidity and that's on Ethereum, you know, so I don't go to other places because I know I'll fail. But I mean, it's got to be pretty frustrating for someone if they're trying to execute a $200 trade and it costs them $120 to do it because it fails twice. Right. And the metaphor that I like to give is like back in the 90s and the early 2000s, the internet was really expensive. Like the bandwidth for the internet was very, very low. And if you wanted more of it, you had to pay a lot. And that's web two or like web one, right? In web three or in crypto, bandwidth isn't bandwidth. It is costs. It is how much trustless transaction space there is.

And there's not that much. On Ethereum, I think there's like one to two megabytes roughly every 10 minutes or so if you scale out. The Ethereum blocks come every 12 seconds, couple of kilobytes. On average, there's only like one to two megabytes per 10 minutes that Ethereum can really fulfill. So we're all competing for the same trustless block space. And that's what we're trying to scale is trustless block space. And that's also why things like on Tron, Tron doesn't have trustless block space. They have a consortium of very, very few stakers that control the Tron network. And so it's really just capturing Ethereum's overflow. And this is what we saw last bull

market too, is that Ethereum becomes congested, things overflow, because it takes a while to learn the lessons of why decentralization matters and why the ethos of this revolution matters. It took me a whole bear market to really figure it out. During bull markets, people are impatient. They want their gains. They want to chase the FOMO. So they'll compromise on the value so they can chase the pump. And then I think over the long term, the people that stay figure out what this revolution is all about. As soon as the bull market ends and the bear market comes, if it does come, that's when people really learn the lessons of what makes this ecosystem tick.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. It's a great analogy you used actually about the internet. I'm in my 40s. So I can go a step further back and say when I was a kid, if you wanted to make a long distance phone call, it was like a dollar a minute, right? And then eventually we got cell phones, which were like $3 a minute,

the big bricks from like Night at the Roxbury. And then, you know, all of a sudden everything was included. And then you went to 14.4 internet, as you said, and improved. So it really is a great analogy. And if you think of it that way, then you know that it's coming and it's going to be cheap and it's, it's going to be fast, really great. And talking about fast. So I remember Vitalik kind of dropped a bomb not so long ago, and then sort of pulled the pin through the grade and walked away seemingly where he said that he had a plan for a hundred X scaling. Do you know what happened to that or what that plan is?

Oh yeah, that's roll-ups. That's what he was talking about, right? And so he's not talking about 100X scaling at the base layer. He's talking about what is ultimately 100X scaling from the perspective of the user. The general consensus of the Ethereum developers and community members is that the L1 is going to kind of just be this net aggregation layer of all the liquidity across L2, right?

And so when you make specifically an L2 chain on Ethereum, captures the same level of settlement assurances that Ethereum does. And that's why we can call it an extension of Ethereum, not an alternative blockchain or not an alternative chain. It's really an outgrowth of Ethereum itself. And when you can go to DYDX right now and start trading a bajillion trades a second because that is powered by the Starkware rollup. And then you can settle on the Starkware rollup onto the L1 and go on to a different rollup and start trading at 10,000 transactions per second there. The reason why we are not having that really experience at the base layer is because this ecosystem really takes time to build out. But as we start, as users start to really just live on L2s rather than on L1s, that's when we're going to start to see both, you know, super high transaction throughput,

and all but also importantly, very low latency. So when you click the button, the transaction is done. You're not waiting for that block time. It is done. And it's really mimicking a centralized exchange level of performance. So we talked about obviously miners and their disgruntledness a bit earlier. What's the role of a miner once it completely transitions to proof of stake and proof of work is no longer a part of the ethereum network yeah there there really isn't one there is a complete deadening of a proof of work miner and so the other gpu mine chains are really going to become flooded with supply uh so that's going to be pretty interesting and what do you think the uh

the implications of that will be? Ah, yeah. Okay. So there's always this game theory that happens when a chain forks with any meaningful amount of support of the minority chain, because if there's any support of the minority chain, all of a sudden that minority chain has a shelling point. And even if that chain is just 1% of the value of the chain that forked from it, all of a sudden, that 1% turns into a possibility of like really, really outsized gains. And we saw this with Bitcoin Cash, any sort of fork. There's really just very little risk to how much outsized potential reward there is for this forked chain to come about.

There probably will be a forked version of Ethereum. We'll call it like Ethereum classic cash or whatever. And I do believe that that is going to be an interesting trading opportunity. That chain will not work into the distant future, but it will be a fun thing to trade in the short term. I mean, I'll never forget that weekend. It must've been in 2018 when the Bitcoin cash went nuts and everybody thought it was the flippening and you could just sit there.

I was trading. So, you know, the 30, 40% moves an hour. We'll call it EVV, Ethereum Vitalik's Vision. Well, for what it's worth, Vitalik's Vision is actually going to be the other chain. Well, and so is Satoshi's, not's vision is actually going to be the other chain. Well, and so is Satoshi's, not the one that's called BSV, right? Fair enough. Good point.

The irony is thick on both, I would say. But yeah, I guess it will be interesting to see what those miners do with their equipment and what network they switch over to and what they start mining, right? Absolutely. Yep. But you don't see many people starting new proof of work blockchains right now. Right, yeah. No, it's all about proof of stake now.

Yeah, really interesting. Can you talk a bit about the other major upgrades that are coming Berlin and London? Maybe Berlin and London for dummies as opposed to like at the very technical level for people understand what is being planned here. Yeah, absolutely. So the Berlin hard fork was the one

that just happened literally yesterday. And it really, really wasn't any meaningful protocol changes. We changed some op codes. We changed the way some gas transactions are managed. Nothing really meaningful to the end user. But importantly, there's this one inclusion into the Berlin hard fork that enables the London hard fork to happen. And the London hard fork is the cool

thing. That is EIP-1559, where instead of paying transaction fees to miners or in the future stakers, we are burning that. And so all of these gas fees, the insane amount of gas fee demand that we see Ethereum has, instead of that being paid to miners and eventually sold on a secondary market, we are instead seeing that supply burned. And if there's one thing we know Ethereum's got, it's got fees. And so if you go to cryptofees.info, you can see the seven-day average of Ethereum fees at $20 million were paid to miners versus Bitcoin, which was only $6 million comparatively. And so $20 million under EIP-1559 would be removed from the supply. So it's literally a reverse issuance.

It's a stock buyback. And what this does is this potentially makes Ether the asset deflationary. But really, the elegant thing is that it makes Ether the asset equally as scarce as the Ethereum economy is strong. And so if the Ethereum economy grows, and there's more transaction demand, more Ether will be burned. And so Ether grows in and Bitcoin does this too, but it does it in a very different way. If the Bitcoin economy doubles, well, there's still only the same amount of Bitcoins. And so Bitcoins become twice as scarce if the Bitcoin economy doubles.

If the Ethereum economy doubles, Ether should be more than twice as scarce because it's been burning Ether every step of the way. And so there's this really elegant solution to what really money should be, which money should always track the value of the economy that it exists in. The Federal Reserve has made sure that the dollar does not do this. It wants the dollar to stay flat in price against some arbitrary index. And so when the GDP of America doubles or triples or 10Xs, the dollar in theory should have devalued versus that growth. And that's because of the perverse incentives of what happens when you have a money printer. Ethereum is the exact inverse,

where Ether, the asset, actually should track the growth of the Ethereum economy with a premium because of the scarcity of Ether being baked into it. And that's what comes in the London hard fork, end of July, early August, somewhere around there. If you've been paying any attention to me or have been following me for any length of time, then you know I absolutely love Voyager. Every single time someone tweets me or asks me, hey, Scott, where do you trade and invest? The answer is always Voyager. They offer over 50 assets to trade commission-free. I save so much money, it almost feels too good to be true. And that's not even my favorite part of Voyager. My favorite part is the insane interest that I earn. Up to 10% on my USDC, 6.25% on my Bitcoin, and 5.25% on my Ethereum. Whether I'm trading or not,

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all streets dot link slash matcha. That's M-A-T-C-H-A. You said something I loved very much in passing in the middle of the sentence. And you said, when the next bear market comes, if a bear, next bear market comes. So that means obviously there's a part of you that believes maybe we are in a super cycle or those 80% drawdowns don't happen again and things have changed. So why? I'll throw out the most dangerous four words in investing. This time, it's different. Why is it different this time?

Oh, yeah. I'm a big fan of the super cycle. And the reason, there's two big reasons as to why this is different. It's different because in 2017, crypto did not hit the ceiling of growth. And this is what we are currently hitting in the 2021 bull market. Companies are putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet. There's rumors that central banks are putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Ether is, and Ether ARK Invest is investing into Coinbase.

Ether is finding itself on a select few companies' balance sheets. I expect that to grow into the future. There's really no more that we can go after this, right? Robinhood is now, it has crypto. The rails for getting money into crypto are just super strong. The plumbing is super robust. And anyone that wants to allocate to crypto can now allocate to crypto, which was not true in 2017.

Crypto is mainstream. Like, we have NFL players minting NFTs. We have, like, artists of all kinds are minting NFTs. There's not much more to growth than where we are now. There's still a little bit more of improvement, but there's also still plenty of more time in this bull market. And what this means is that when it comes time for the bull to turn the bear, there is going to be a nice host, a cohort of people who are looking to provide those bids because they didn't get in before the market. So they'll wait to the other side of the market and they will bid when the bull turns to bear, they will bid that for becoming too much of a bear, right? And so

I'm a fan of a super cycle or maybe Bitcoin goes to a quarter million dollars, Ether goes to 15, $20,000. These are my general price targets. And then perhaps we see a 50% drawdown, but then the bids start coming because of the second part, this is the second part of the money printer. There's so much cash out there. We are in a late stage fiat credit cycle and crypto is the last asset class that has not yet been allocated to by the most of legacy institutions. You know, art, it's been allocated to. Real estate, super hot. Every single asset, equities, every single asset class has been allocated to except to

crypto. And Bitcoin is getting allocated to right now. I think Ether, which traditionally falls in Bitcoin's footsteps, gets allocated to next. And then all of a sudden sudden we have Bitcoin and Ether, the two store value assets that this industry has produced on the balance sheets of big companies. And we also have all the little guys like Wall Street Bets now incorporates Bitcoin and Ether into their conversation, which they didn't before. Retail mania, I think is coming. At the end of this cycle, crypto has integrated itself into the world.

And that really is going to prevent those like 85 plus percent drawdowns that we saw in 2017. I agree with you. And I actually have very similar price targets for the end of the cycle. So it's good to get confirmation. Um, but, and you made a really good point. I mean, if you consider NFTs a part of the crypto community, obviously, I mean, it's on Saturday night live, right? I mean, if you consider NFTs a part of the crypto community, obviously, I mean, it's on Saturday Night Live, right? I mean, made it. So the question then I guess becomes, are the issues not about adoption, but is it about infrastructure to allow for that adoption, right? So we've spoken a lot about Ethereum in particular, but what infrastructural things do you think we still need to see for blockchain and crypto adoption at a level where you don't think about it? It's just

like a normal thing. Blockchain is underlying like a cell phone or the internet or any of those things. And we just have, it just becomes another asset in everyone's basket. Right. And so actually, interestingly, EIP-1559 is one of those infrastructure level things because what EIP-1559 does is that eliminates the need to manage gas. EIP-1559 picks your gas for you. And so you no longer do you have to be prompted by your MetaMask or your WebExplorer to select for gas. And as a user experience, that is huge. No one cares about gas. No one wants to think about gas they just wants it to be paid and so when you come and mint an nft you will just press the mint

button instead of having to like well what is guay like how much is my gas fee do i have to change these numbers like what the hell is this uh you just press send confusing yeah it's very confusing and then we also get to talk about nft layeros. Immutable X has an NFT Starkware-based layer two, which is live right now, where the cost to mint in an NFT is three pennies or less. And that, which is also massive, right? And so not only does this democratize access for individuals who want to mint NFTs,

but it also opens up a whole world of just low value nfts like what about that like common or uncommon sword that you found on the game that you were playing with like the thing that you can get like three and a half dollars for on a secondary market like now that design space is unlocked which is absolutely. And we actually just saw the Epic Games, the team behind Fortnite is now experimenting with NFTs in their platform. Fortnite got like some crazy number of billions of dollars selling skins on their games. Imagine what they can do with NFTs on an L2, maybe perhaps something like Immable X. That is absolutely coming. And again, this is the centralized exchange, low latency, low fee performance of an L2. And we are just

now seeing these things introduced. And that is a level of infrastructure where people can be like, oh, again, dial up early low bandwidth L1, high throughput, low cost, instant finality L2. That's the level of performance that the legacy world, the retail world, it's going to come to expect. Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of friends or people I was connected with who are artists and were trying to get into NFTs. And maybe seven, eight months ago,

it was kind of doable if you were going to sell your NFT for a hundred bucks. But then when everything went completely parabolic, it basically killed the whole low level sort of, as you said, so not even like, yes, at a whole other level, $3 swords, but still it also crushed like the 70 to $150 artists that were making a lot of money selling, you know,

10 copies of something for a hundred bucks. So, you know, there needs to be a solution for that. So this can be for a hundred bucks. So there needs to be a solution for that. So this can be for everyone. Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, this goes back to the original ethos of Ethereum, maximum accessibility to secure the protocol and maximum accessibility to put a transaction into the protocol. In that regard, do you think that NFTs, as we're seeing it in the art and collectible space, is in a bubble? That's a hard question. Yes and no.

Things have definitely gotten out over their ski tips. Things are definitely overpriced. But the NFT revolution is absolutely real. There's a real fundamental breakthrough of technology here. Finally, we are able to, specifically with digital artists, but perhaps other artists as well, finally, we are enabling them a financial tool to let the market value their price. I was an artist in the past. I was a photographer. Being an artist and pricing your own art is hard. And now we have a financial tool that allows

artists to put their work out into the marketplace and easily just allow people to bid for it. We saw the Uniswap, the X times Y equals K NFT from People Pleaser. She didn't know how much she thought, think that was going to go for it. When I interviewed her, she said something around like $25,000 to $50,000. It went for half a million dollars. And the only reason why that was true is because of an NFT on Ethereum allowed people to find the art that they wanted to buy and allowed the artist to

create an asset for those people to buy. It's a huge revolution in what art and artistic creation and cultural expression can really happen in a digital form. And we're having the conversation on COVID about how the digital world is getting advanced really, really fast. This is that. And so while people are speculating and the crypto inherently gets out over the ski tips really, really fast,

it starts to price in 10 years of growth into six months. That's definitely happening with NFTs. Yet the innovation I really expect in the same way that ICOs took three years to morph into DeFi tokens and to have a fundamental improvement as to the quality of the nature of these assets, I expect NFTs to go through a similar iteration

and improvement. I don't expect it to take three years. I expect it to take perhaps six months to one year to really come up with new NFTs that really are creative and not just a speculative mania, but the NFT revolution is here to stay. I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that's a perfect assessment of the situation. And I think that it's important for people to note that when there's a new technology or new excitement over something,

there's always a bubble, right? Because you need to basically, you need to basically just weed out the garbage and so that the cream can rise to the top. I mean, we saw it absolutely. You talk about 2017, three years for them to convert to DeFi tokens. Then we saw this insane DeFi boom last summer, and we saw 90% of that die, get rug pulled, get completely obliterated and down to zero. And now DeFi is sort of rising from the ashes and the cream is rising to the top, as I said. So I think that that's a really good assessment. And also, I think that people mainstream still are only talking about NBA Top Shot and Beeple, right? And they don't even

understand everything that a non-fungible token can actually be used for, right? Right. Right. That's just art. Like that's just the beginning. We can like literally any asset that has a single claim somewhere deed to your house certificate, diploma, anything that's like a single piece of paper, that's an NFT. Right. And it completely eliminates any third party or toll collector in between on a transaction. So then you're talking about unlocking hundreds of trillions of dollars of value when things can be turned into NFTs. So I think that it's impossible not to be bullish on the space. Going back to DeFi. So what do you make of where DeFi is at this point? It's my opinion, obviously, that we're early with tools

that your average person would be able to use. But what do you see coming in the future for DeFi since it is largely all being built on Ethereum? Yeah. So there's actually two really, really awesome announcements that happened in this last week. One is real world assets are now collateral inside of MakerDAO. And so there are real estate loans being facilitated by the MakerDAO credit facility. So real estate contracts are now collateral inside of MakerDAO. And there's a $500,000 DAI loan being paid out to the people that need the liquidity to make real estate investments.

That's really cool. That's adding to DAI liquidity. And that's starting to pull in real world assets into Ethereum's gravitational well. And we've just known on Ethereum that when things come to Ethereum as assets, they tend to not leave. They tend to stay there. And so MakerDAO as a credit facility has really a massive competitive advantage versus any other lending or borrowing applications like Compound or Aave, where you can go to Aave and you can get a USDC loan or a DAI loan. But MakerDAO is different because MakerDAO has the

power to issue DAI. They can print more DAI and Aave and Compound can't do that. And the other second announcement that we saw is that Aave and MakerDAO are integrating their protocols together with a partnership that allows for Aave to tap into this power that MakerDAO has to mint DAI. And so Aave is kind of becoming this commercial bank on top of the MakerDAO decentral bank, if you will. The MakerDAO has the power to mint and Aave needs the power to issue. And so using MakerDAO as the central bank under Aave, Aave can come in and ask MakerDAO for a loan collateralized by assets inside of Aave to help mint DAI to help reduce the DAI interest rates and also make DAI much more accessible. And so stuff like this, where

both we're bringing real world assets into MakerDAO and then always acting as like the commercial bank layer on top of MakerDAO to distribute that liquidity out into the rest of DeFi. Absolutely massive. That is super cool. Uniswap V3 is coming, which is there. God, we could go into that for hours where it's some combination of both an AMM

and an order book exchange where constant liquidity can get concentrated really, really tightly. And so the, I don't know how many billions of dollars there is in Uniswap, something like eight or nine, uh, all of a sudden that can become roughly like somewhere between 50 and 3000 X as liquid, because we are able to more surgically determine where we want liquidity to be in Uniswap, uh, which really just further instantiates Ethereum, the base layer, as the place where you get liquidity, right? And with L2s and with sharding, everyone is always just one transaction away from that liquidity on Uniswap. So if you're trading on an L2 and you need to swap a different asset,

you can get in and out of that L2 with Uniswap in the L1 using that Uniswap liquidity, and everyone can access that simultaneously from L2s. That is insanely cool. I could keep on going with what's coming in DeFi as well. Here's another one. The Uniswap concentrated liquidity positions, which are NFT tokens, it breaks imposability because now we can't take our liquidity position

and put that as collateral. And so this opens up a massive amount of surface area for yield aggregation competition. Who has the best strategy to add liquidity to Uniswap around which price targets? Do we want to add liquidity on the ETH-DAI pair between $2,500 and $2,000? Or who's going to compete to provide the best strategy? And that's exactly what something like Yearn does or just overall just competition to provide the best and most optimized liquidity

and yield for on top of Uniswap is a massive design space that just got unlocked. Yeah, so much. It really is incredible. But it also like when you hear someone sort of start to put it into words, we're in the first inning. Absolutely. The potential of DeFi, all of those things are incredibly exciting, but there will be a time when it becomes a parallel sort of layer to legacy banking and everything you can do in a legacy bank, you can effectively do better in DeFi. Don't you agree?

Absolutely. right. And we just need the user experience to match. It just can't be like a grandma can't go in and start yield farming food coins. And that's really where the role of centralized service providers, I think will always stick around, right? Like if you don't want to touch DeFi, that's fine.

Coinbase, Gemini, they'll do it for you. And that'll be completely fine. Do you think those yields are sustainable, though? Because they're very dependent, obviously, on a few things. They're dependent on people wanting liquidity to short, people who want leverage, dependent on the cash and carry trade existing, dependent on the GBTC arbitrage, which is gone, the premium trade. It seems there's always been a trade for people to be able to take advantage and offer this huge yield, but there may be a time when a lot of those dissipate, right? Sure. Yeah. And we can definitely attest to why some of these yields are here to the bull market. Will the yields disappear in relationship to legacy yields? Never, ever. Always be way bigger than your bank account. Always be way bigger. And this is going to be something that, again, always sucks in assets. Assets follow yield. And as people come to trust

yield on Ethereum more and more and more and feel more secure about it, there's only more USDC coming into Ethereum. There's only more Tether coming into Ethereum. And it's just a vortex of liquidity because your capital is more efficient on Ethereum. And so bull markets will always have outsized yields, but I think that we are seeing dollar-denominated yields above 10%, perhaps for the next five years on Ethereum, and perhaps above 20% so long as the bull market is going on. Love it. Music, music to my ears because man,

put your money in a bank account doesn't feel great these days. Not, not at all. No, no, sir. So interesting, something you said, obviously you touched on how Ethereum in your mind had the properties of superior money to some degree. And I think that a lot of the tribalism in the crypto space comes from that simple statement from years ago, ETH is money. Right. A, what do you make of that statement? And B, why do you think people are so tribalistic?

And why is there so much division between Bitcoin maximalists and ETH maximalists? Yeah, the tribalism inherently, I think, comes from the fact of the belief of monetary maximalism, which is actually a belief that I kind of subscribe to. Really, money just makes sense to have one. There's only should be really one money. People converge on one money. And it's just better if there's only one money, because then money is the most liquid asset. And liquidity, as much as we can grow the pie and create more liquidity, ultimately, there's one asset that kind of sucks all of the liquidity. And so Ryan Sean Adams, my partner at Bankless, he actually planted that flag with that ETH is money meme. And it was really a statement that so many, like especially in the 2018, 2019 bear market

where Bitcoiners were just shitting on Ethereum every step of the way. Sorry, pardon me, pardon my language. Oh, you can say it. Yeah, hey, cool. Yeah, they really just bullied, they just bullied the hell out of Ether and Ethereum. And really at that time,

the Ethereum community didn't really have the spine to stick up for itself. But Ryan and all of his foresight said, Ether is the only asset as collateral inside of MakerDAO. It's the only asset as the trading pair inside of Uniswap. It's the only native asset on Ethereum. Ether is money. Ether is money.

It's a valuable asset. And it's the only trustless, viable asset in Ethereum. And if we value the ethos and values of this space, which is trust minimization with strong settlement assurances, the only asset that can provide that level of trustlessness and assurances on Ethereum is Ether. And so partly the ETH is money claim is also a claim that Ethereum is the native economy of the internet, which I think is what we are seeing happen, right? So Ether is money so long as Ethereum is the economy. And to the

degree that the Ethereum is, it is the internet economy. There's no other internet economy out there. And at some point with the belief of Bankless and what we talk about on the Bankless program is that the legacy economy that's out there between banks and legacy settlement layers, it's just easier to do it on Ethereum. And so at some point, Ethereum goes from being the internet economy to the economy. And when that happens, ETH goes from just a speculative asset to money. And we've also enjoyed this meme, ultrasound money. And ultrasound money is what you get when you add a deflationary mechanism on top of sound money.

And it's partly a knock on Bitcoiners who talk about how Bitcoin is sound money. And it's kind of, we like to laugh at ourselves on Ethereum. We're very, we're not as security or we're not as like, what's the right word? We're not as, we don't believe in the same values and ethos as Bitcoin. And so we like to kind of play jokes on words here.

And so ultrasound money is the meme that we've come up with ether. Well, all that said, what is the role of Bitcoin? Yeah, Bitcoin is digital gold. Bitcoin is digital gold. And that's what it is. But it was originally a peer-to-peer cash, right? Yeah. But I don't actually really ascribe too much weight on early narratives because I can't remember who said this, but Bitcoin, Ethereum, we aren't creating these things.

We are discovering these things. And Bitcoiners knock on Ethereum all the time for saying like, oh, they changed the narrative. Like, no, no, no. We discovered the narrative. Like we are discovering what these things are good for. And the whole Bitcoin cash versus Bitcoin debate was Bitcoin discovering that it wants to be a store of value asset, not a cash settlement payment system. That's really what people want. People want sound money. And of course, naturally, this is the logical conclusion. Think of like Bitcoin cash versus Bitcoin. One of them is a global store of value asset, which number goes up.

And the other one is a cash system. The number go up thesis is the one that rewards Bitcoiners more financially. So Bitcoiners collectively chose that one. It's the narrative that makes them the money. And all of a sudden the narrative becomes the truth. And so that's the, and it kind of that goes back to the whole L1 or monetary maximalism belief is that people, the asset that people choose to be money

becomes money because everyone chose it to be that. And the asset that becomes money is the one that has the most upside baked into it. That's why you see Ether as collateral, not USDC in DeFi, right? That's why you see people borrowing, miners borrowing against their Bitcoin to pay for their electricity costs because they spend the dollars and they hold the Bitcoin. And that's what you see happening in DeFi too. People borrow against their Ether and then they sell the dollars because no one wants to hold dollars. They want to hold Ether because it's ultrasound money.

That makes sense. So what do you make of platforms that are starting to build DeFi on Bitcoin? Yeah, so there's that sovereign platform, which is like, quote unquote, DeFi on Bitcoin, I think that's a marketing tool because there is a fundamental inability to truly build trustless assets on Ethereum or on, excuse me, on Bitcoin. Bitcoin doesn't have the expressiveness to build DeFi on it. Whenever people say Bitcoin or DeFi on Bitcoin, it's really a marketing gimmick. The difference between like an Ethereum L2 and a DeFi on Bitcoin is that the Ethereum L2 is equal to the assurances and security of the Ethereum network. Sovereign and other DeFi apps on Bitcoin, you have to trust someone.

There is someone trusting that bridge between Bitcoin and like DeFi on Bitcoin. It is not a trustless bridge. And so therefore, it's not trustless finance. And therefore, it's really not cryptocurrency. Cryptocurrency and the ethos and values that I've been harping on is trustless and it's trustless, strong settlement assurances and DeFi on Bitcoin can't provide that. And that's why DeFi is on Ethereum. So then what is the role moving forward of stable coins? I'm just, you know, if you believe that Ethereum basically will be the money of the internet or the money of the future, then what happens with stable coins?

Are they a tool within that economy for quick settlements? Sure. Yeah, that's one of them. I like to use this metaphor where before Netflix was streaming you your movies, they were mailing you DVDs, right? Because the bandwidth on the internet couldn't support streaming. And so we had this digital analog hybrid where we needed really just this crutch to get us into the digital world. And that's what, in my mind, crypto dollars or stable coins are. It's like, well, people are used to transacting in dollars. They're familiar with a dollar. They know what a dollar is worth. And so we'll bring dollars as a bridge onto Ethereum. USDC from Circle is a bridge of value into Ethereum so that

people can buy native assets. So we can start like get into the world of streaming movies rather than just mailing people DVDs, the purely digital, the purely digitally native assets. And so really the role of the dollar is to allow for liquidity bridges from the legacy world onto Ethereum, onto, well, I mean, I guess crypto dollars are on Tron too, but really it's Tron crypto dollars are made for payments. Ethereum crypto dollars are made for finance. And so crypto dollars are just going to be this vehicle,

this bridge between old world value and DeFi. Do you think that the legacy systems are going to end up adopting stable coins? I mean, even in the United States, we've seen that the OCC is saying they can. Doesn't mean they will, right? But go ahead, test stable coins, see if they're better than ACH, see if they're better than Swift and FedDollar, you know, all of these other legacy,

complete hot garbage transaction systems. But do you think that they'll actually adopt it enough that it does become that bridge? Or are you saying it's a bridge for your average person who wants to get in so they just buy some stable coins and transfer it in and get into a different ecosystem? I think anyone who has used stable coins versus wiring people money from their bank accounts

understands that the user experience is just monumentally better. That's not just true for the individual. That's true for the business and institution as well. We saw MasterCard be a part of the consensus raised recently. So MasterCard and ConsenSys, the Ethereum studio, MasterCard now owns part of ConsenSys. Visa is already having a USDC settlement network between select crypto banks, Coinbase being one of them, BlockFi is another. And so Visa is already using USDC to settle directly onto the Ethereum network. So Visa is actually using Ether to purchase Ethereum block space. And that's just because the assurances that you have of stable coin

settlement on Ethereum are better than bank transfers. Bank transfers are reversible and USCC settlements on Ethereum are not reversible. And why do you think Visa has to charge like two to 3% on it or whatever they charge, one to 2% on a transaction is because there's settlement risk. There's no settlement risk on Ethereum. So Visa as a network doesn't have to price in nearly as much risk. And those settlements are instant, not daily. And they can be as fast and instant as you want them to be. And so I just don't understand why this trajectory would be anything different other than just using Ethereum to settle payments. Yeah, it's actually, you touched on, I think, a huge problem that exchanges have that people don't understand is that if you deposit money into an exchange and they allow

you to use that to buy Bitcoin, you can then reverse that for a certain amount of time and they're stuck with the transaction on their side, which is why they're forced to lock up. And that said, I mean, I've experienced a lot of clunkiness getting dollars out of exchanges of late. I don't know about you, but it seems that the legacy side, those rails are not actually able to manage the volume that's coming through exchanges with people going in and out of dollars. Yeah. So this is something I recently, not too recently, I did a presentation for Ethereal talking about settlement assurances. It's actually crazy how long the time frame you get to reverse a transaction. For the ACH transfers, it's somewhere between like 90 and 180 days. For SEPA transfer in Europe, it's 18 months. you can reverse a transaction for 18 months and so um and that's the reason why like when you deposit into coinbase or gemini like you kind of got to sit on your hands for almost two weeks before you can withdraw because they know that they you could

just say like oh nope yoink right but the anger is at the exchange and the people don't realize that the exchange is taking a huge risk even after two weeks they're just minimizing like i don't know what the statistics are, but I would imagine that most transactions are probably reversed in that first one or two weeks, which is why they sort of, but yeah, you send your money in, you can't do anything with it for two weeks, but then you can buy Bitcoin, which you're buying from them, you know, and then you reverse the transaction and you have the Bitcoin and the cash. Right. And that's just this inevitable friction between a world of permissionless instant settlement and permissioned trusted settlement.

And so tell me a bit more about Bankless. Yeah. So Bankless started as a newsletter in 2019. And then we started a podcast. Me and Ryan started the Bankless podcast in early 2020. And then in late 2020, we actually formally started the bankless company. So it's actually only been around for a little bit as a formal company. It's only been around for a little over a half a year. And the growth that we've seen there is pretty, is pretty incredible. So yeah, it's a, it's a podcast. The podcast comes out every Monday. And then on the YouTube, we do a Tuesday live stream, State of the Nation is what we call it. We call it the Bankless Nation for the internet nomads, the digital nomads that live in DeFi, live in Ethereum, live on Bitcoin. And yeah, so the Tuesday live stream is like a new cycle thing. And then we do Wednesday AMAs

every single week. And then on Thursday, we record the weekly roll-ups that goes out on Friday. And so that's the podcast and YouTube. And then on the newsletter, we have the Market Monday, which is just market commentary. We talked about Coinbase this week. And then on Tuesday, there's Tactics Tuesday for how to use a DeFi app.

It just walks you through how to use it. Then there's Writers Wednesday, which is like a thought piece. That's kind of my favorite section. It just walks you through how to use it. Then there's a Writer's Wednesday, where it's just like a thought piece. That's kind of my favorite section. That's where I do all of my writing. And then Token Thursdays, because everyone likes to talk about tokens. And so we go through a specific token,

talk about the value upside, the metrics behind it, really just get in deep and analyze it. And then on Friday is Open Fred Friday, where everyone can come in and talk about a coherent topic and just be a community together. And then there's also the Bankless Discord, where people get to chat and share stories and help each other learn. And then there's also the Bankless Badge, which is an NFT, which kind of just is your membership ownership into the bankless world. And we're actually doing a two week long campaign of giveaways for people that are who, yeah, so one of these shirts,

we're giving away six of these shirts to six lucky bankless badge owners. And then next week we're giving a bunch away, a bunch of other stuff, including one ether on Friday. Nice. You guys have a lot going on there. I find I, you know, I, obviously I have podcasts, YouTube, daily newsletter, kind of a very similar structure. And I love it because I find that it keeps me accountable. Right. And on

top of the market on a daily basis, it's like finding a more creative way to do all of my own research. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I would, I would not be keeping up as well with the world of Ethereum if it wasn't for how I kind of have to. Yeah. Which is awesome. Well, I'm excited to see what you guys have for the future. I know that we're here. So where can everybody follow you and, you know, check out Bankless? Yeah, you can follow Bankless on Twitter at Bankless HQ. You can follow me on Twitter at Trustless State. That's three S's in the middle. And then BanklessHQ.com is our website. It's a work in progress. It'll basically just forward you off to the newsletter. And then if you are a paid subscriber to Bankless, you can come and chat with me and Ryan in the Discord.

Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I think you definitely clarified a lot of things that are probably confusing to your average person. And I got all of us really, really excited for what's coming out of Ethereum in the coming months and years. So thank you very much.

I am equally as excited and I'm happy to spread that excitement because I don't think the world is as excited as it should be. Well, you do a very good job of it. So thanks. Awesome. Thanks, guys.