The Wolf Of All Streets - Forget Web 3. A Vision Of A Web 5 Social Network | Justin Rezvani, Zion

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

Justin Rezvani, listed in Forbes 30 under 30, is revolutionizing social media. If you don’t want to miss this revolution, follow Justin and check out this interview, where we discuss: Zion, Web3 vs Web5, new identity standards that Justin has invented, the size of Tony Robbins's hands. and the problem of building decentralized apps on centralized infrastructure. Justin Rezvani: https://twitter.com/justinrezvani ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen  GET UP TO A $8,000 BONUS IN USDT AND TRADE ALL SPOT PAIRS ON BITGET FOR ZERO FEES! ►► https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bitget   Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets   Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io  Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe  Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c  #Bitcoin #Crypto #zion  Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 1:50 Lightning whitepaper 4:05 Bitget Ad 5:03 Web 2 + Web 3 = Web 5 8:20 What is Zion 10:50 New identity standard 13:45 Solving UX/UI problem of crypto 15:40 How big is Tony Robbins’ hand 17:30 The book: Unapologetic freedom 19:20 What’s wrong with the social media 22:00 Decentralizing Zion 26:00 Problem with the centralized infrastructure 28:00 Do we live in a simulation? 29:35 Bitcoin The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

Big tech and social media are fundamentally broken, and so are the way that they use our data and, of course, the way that they violate our privacies. Can we build a better social media platform on Bitcoin and the Lightning Network? Justin Rezvani believes we can, and he's actively doing it. We also question whether or not we are all living in a simulation. What do you think?

So this is the last, last fireside chat, by the way, there's no fire, zero fire. Like, why do we even call these fires? Can't we just say conversations? Do we put a phone? We need to put a fake fire here. A fake fire with the fans and the lights? This is no, we can get the Beyonce hair. So this is our last fireside chat that lacks a fire completely. If you've watched my show and my channel before, you've definitely seen Justin, who's become a very close friend. And I'm a huge fan of everything that he's building. Now, listen, you exited a successful company before you were 30, you were Forbes 30 under 30, you were fully retired.

Done, done with working. I got out of the matrix. And then like the godfather sucked you back in. Yeah. I mean, the thing I shared today during my talk, it's like, I had this huge event. I have this stroke, seizure, brain surgery. And I was like, I woke up and I was like, you know what? I can't stop now. I gotta, I gotta keep playing the game. And so you could have come back in to do anything. Yeah. There had to be a reason that you chose what you're doing. Was it some aha moment with Bitcoin specifically? It was a flight to Istanbul in October of 2020. And I read, I printed out the lightning white paper and I read it like four times on this 10 hour flight

to Istanbul. And it was this like light bulb moment, like this is going to solve a ton of problems on the internet. So I better start now and figure out what am I going to do with this thing? But it was the lightning white paper, not the Bitcoin white paper. It was the lightning white paper. Yeah. Cause it's a little bit more detailed about child and parent paying each other. Like it's very detailed in how two people can pay each other. And because I've been in the creator space for so long, it made so much sense for this to be like a creator payment network. So I know where you landed with Zion, which we'll talk about obviously, but what were the other random thoughts that passed through your head after reading that lightning white paper as to what you could potentially do with that technology?

Or was this just your first thing and it was a light bulb moment? To me, like the idea that you could move money between two people without anyone in the middle kind of blew my mind. Because if you look at every system that's built out on the internet right now, there's like five to six layers of companies, people, cut makers, all whatever you want to call it, they get a cut across every single thing. And I saw that as probably the biggest opportunity is like, if you can cut out a middleman, which was my previous business, you can make a lot of money doing that and you could help a lot of people. And that was just the light bulb moment of like, how do you build things of efficiency? I mean,

I look at myself over the past 11 years of what I've done in my career is just, I'm a product designer at heart. That's what I built. I was like, these systems are just so much better than legacy. This is the way to build the next payment network for creators. It was so obvious. If you've been following me for the last few months, then you definitely know that I've been trading and investing on BitGet. Now, listen, it took me six months to decide that they were going to be the sponsor for the newsletter. But once I saw their partnership with Juventus, that they were the world's leading copy trading platform in crypto, and also that they're a top five exchange by volume, well, I was sold and I

was convinced. I've been using it ever since to dollar cost average and to invest in Bitcoin. You can also trade there with leverage, but of course, be careful if you're going to do that. And I don't know if you saw the recent news, but they've also done a deal with Lionel Messi. Now you can get up to an $8,000 bonus using my link below and you can trade spot with absolutely no fees. You also get a 15% discount on trading leverage. Go ahead and sign up right now using the wolf of all streets.info slash BitGet. Claim that huge reward and use the world's best trading platform. It is obvious, but there have been some challenges with the Lightning Network. It's so hard. Yes. This stuff is so new and nobody really uses it. Like to be very frank,

I think 10,000 people in the world actually use the Lightning Network, like actually use it. So it's a very small number, hopefully growing over the next few years. But if you read Twitter, you would think that that was 10 million. Of course, because it's a very loud community, but it's just not, right? You look at the liquidity, it's not really there yet. It's cumbersome to use. But our hope is that we want to be the killer use case. And my my weird feeling is that it's not necessarily a wallet that's the killer use case. It's actually social media. That's the killer use case. OK, so let's talk about specifically what you're building. And we've had this conversation before, which is fine, but it's evolved.

Yeah, it's changed a lot. There's been some progress even in the last few months since we last did this. So I may just give people the first, you know, the first basically rundown of exactly what you're doing, but then how it's advanced. Yeah, I think generally first is starting as like what's broken. What's broken is identity, how messages and data moves on the Internet and then payments. And we started with just payments were like, hey, you can use a payment network to move data.

And that might be the most efficient way to do it. We found out it's actually not. But we uncovered that identity is very centralized. Identity is broken. Who you are on Twitter, you don't own or on any centralized service. And if you have a Gmail account, you also don't own that. So let's figure out how people get identifiers that they own. So that was the DID layer. Then Jack's team in January approached us and said, Hey, we're going to release this thing.

It's going to be called web five. It's going to be released in June. We think you should use this data pattern to build your V2. Cause we were already in talks of building a V2. And because you want to build social, we think you're a good implementation. And by the way, it all works with lightning. So then it was like, okay, as a product designer, I was like, what can I put together? What three pieces are available off the shelf that I can put together into this one thing to make Zion? And that's how the new version is coming out over the next few weeks. It's going to have DIDs as the identity layer. It's going to have decentralized web node and the D web nodes like data structures for data storage and messaging. And the final piece is a lightning

wallet. So you can pay anyone at any time for anything. So you said that they call it web five. What the hell happened to web four? Yeah, I think what they wanted to do and it's marketing, right? It's, it's the, the, the team over there at TBD wanted to say, this is not Web3. It's an addition of Web2. So Web2 plus Web3 is Web5. And they just wanted to skip over. And I get the marketing behind it.

They got a lot of buzz. A lot of people shared it. And I understand why. Because it doesn't require a token. It doesn't require another blockchain. And I think that's really interesting. Because most projects in the space are focused on what is their token? What's their liquidity? What's the blockchain that they're using? But I don't think social needs a blockchain. I think we're seeing the failures of social

blockchains every single day. It's inefficient to store data on a blockchain generally. So that's where I think the pattern that Jack has chosen is a good one. And generally I'm betting on him. Like I'm betting on, is he the guy? And he's been the guy for the last 20 years. So I'm just betting on him. Which is probably a strong bet. I hope so. I mean, I really, really hope so.

So what's the ultimate vision for what you're building now that you're really starting to see it come to fruition? Is this a billion person social network trans social network? It's more than that. It's more like a protocol. Now it's evolving into a protocol than just an application. And the proxy that I would use, and I'm trying to make some comparisons, is look at Tesla. If you look at Tesla as a business, people think that they make cars. That would be our proxy for an application.

But what they really are is battery technology. They're building all this AI with machine learning and all the things that so they can build other products eventually i look at us in the same way we're building an identity service that anchors an identity to the bitcoin blockchain using ion we're building a decentralized web node that creators like yourself could post content and you control how that content is posted sign it with your private key and if you decide to leave is posted, sign it with your private key. And if you decide to leave Zion, you could take all your followers with you. And the final piece is payments through Lightning. When you have primitives of money, decentralized storage,

and decentralized identity, you can build almost any application on the web. Every app needs a login to start. Every login needs identity. So we want to, we want to launch Zion identity service as a login. So you can use SSO, but instead of using Facebook, SSO, Twitter, SSO, you log in with your own private key, your own identity. And it's bifurcated from MetaMask. All these other, these, these social networks are like log in with your MetaMask, log in with your Solana wallet. But why are you logging in with your payment source into a social network, right? That's like, why would you want all that transaction data

inside of a social network? So I think that's another element is that we're building tools for developers for sign-on. We're building this data storage piece for creators. And then final piece is the money. It's a liquidity network at the end of the day. When we launched, we had 13% of all nodes on the

Lightning Network in the first six months. So there's an opportunity here that we could be a big liquidity provider for Lightning as well. So there's legs to this business in a really big way. So you can effectively give back to the network and strengthen the network itself by creating this on top. 100%. And give use cases that are beyond what we're seeing now, which is just payments. Buy things at this place, buy things at this place. Well, what if you bought content, right? Content is what we're consuming a lot more than cheeseburgers at McDonald's. We're consuming that thousands of times a day. And what if each one of those pieces of content is a transaction? There's a massive opportunity to use it and leverage the network in a much broader and

bigger way. And that's what I'm hoping for. Is that focused largely on creators? 100% 100%. My customer are exactly people like you because I've seen the problem for 10 years. You have Facebook that's amassed this huge, huge walled garden. And, and they kind of have built this thing around creators where, Hey, you have to be there because that's where audiences are. But the counterintuitive argument is you don't own any of that audience. And at any time, they can decide to kick you off. I want to build something that even if there was the powers that be at Zion that said, like, oh, we don't agree with those politics. It'd be like, Scott's like, I'm out.

And everyone comes with me because they know all the data patterns match you. It's not another walled garden. It data patterns match you. It's not another walled garden. It's not another Twitter. It's not another Facebook. And I'm not building another blockchain. We're building on top of primitives that is being accepted by like the W3C. Like, for example, this happened in July. W3C, which is the standards org. This is the ones that made TCP IP. It's the ones that made SMTP, which is what everyone uses for email. They accepted a DID as the new identifier for the web. So what that means is the thing we're using for identity. Now they're like, Oh, this is a new standard and everyone can use it. That means every app can use that as a new identifier. So I have hope for that. And if they

accept, if they accept decentralized web nodes as the data storage piece, which I think it's going to happen because of how much pressure that Block is putting, Microsoft, Google, all the people working on this infrastructure, we could have this as the new standards for the internet. Do you think that that will be adopted as well by Web 2? Because you're obviously building in, we'll call it Web 3. Of course. I hate to catch all the time. But do you think that people will be logging into their Facebook and Twitter and YouTube accounts using these DIDs? I don't think so.

I think the incumbents are at their 20-year cycle. Tech all has 20-year cycles. And I think we're ending their 20-year reign and we need to have a new system to be built on top of it. I think this is the era that we're going to build the new web because the new web should have the promises of interoperability. Right now it doesn't. Like you post to Facebook, like you can't access Facebook servers. Server is not open state, right? Like even if, and this is the other thing, most companies

are building open source software. What's really interesting is that Zion is going to be open source, but it's also going to be open state. And what that means is you can see the state of the network at all times if you're using a Dweb node infrastructure, which means that anyone can fetch that data as long as they have the right key to access it. That's the thing, like, to me is like unlocking a whole potential because now apps can be interoperable. What if you have the next Twitter and the next Facebook,

but they can message each other, right? You can message from Twitter to Instagram. You can do these cross-platform situations. And then what you compete for is UI and UX instead of competing for where the data is stored. Do you see what I'm saying? Like that to me is a whole unpacking thing that doesn't require a blockchain or a token. That's the thing that is the crux of all this.

Well, we need people to start competing for UI UX because UI UX and crypto is trash. Yeah. It's not that good. And it's hard. I mean, that's the thing that I'm realizing it's I've spent like probably the last few months I'm work like design is a big thing for me. Like, how does this feel? How does this look? How does this look like the regular stuff, but with all this complex, how do you use like one of the things we're figuring out, right? We're almost, we're done with this piece, but how do we make a private key, stay on the secure storage of a phone and seem invisible to the user using that secure storage for the private key, but it's invisible. And then what's the signing mechanism for every piece of content, right? But make it invisible,

right? How do you, and these are things that I'm thinking about and just that's a lot of my time is that design. Did you ever at any point consider building this on any of the other layer one networks? Not, not really because I had a friend that that's an investor in the company. Um, he's been whispering in my ear about lightning for a very long time, but I never really got into it and it never truly never made any sense to me. Like I didn't really understand how would I build this on Ethereum because the transactions at some point were super high. Um, even it's on a layer two, like WBTC or something else. I still didn't understand it. I didn't understand the security of these other things. Cause my goal is to exchange value between two people. And I'm not sure if these other blockchains are value

exchange mechanisms. I think they're technology companies. And that's why I want to bifurcate the two. Bitcoin is an exchange of value, but these other things are just technology companies and they've offered their version of a security, which happens to be their token. And that's great, but they're completely different than what Bitcoin is. And I don't want, I didn't, I didn't need a token like that to be the value exchange between creators. Like I think Bitcoin is the hardest money. Why don't you just use that simpler?

So this is not easy stuff. I think it's hard for the lay person to understand. I think they can understand the ethos and the concept and the idea behind it, but you've amassed an incredible group of investors. Yeah. The cap table, some people may have heard of that. We're not native to the, to the crypto space. I don't want to like out your cap table. It's very public. I mean, like Aaron Rogers is one of his, for the Packers is one of his investors. Yeah. I, I mean, to me, what was a big light bulb moment is July 2021, I'm pitching Tony Robbins, which is a big kind of speaker. And I'm spending an hour on the phone explaining to him the Lightning Network. And we were unpacking every layer of it.

How does it work? What does it do? He's like, how come people aren't using this thing? And I just, I was like, I think it's just early. I think we're just very early on that. This is the potential of the next payment network. And from there, it started the trajectory of adding people that have just been my friends for quite a long time.

And I said, Hey, we're going to go build this thing. I think we should all do it together. And I would love for you to be involved. And this is how I'm going to do it. And I was just very blessed that I've been doing this for over 10 years. So I've been in the creator space. I've been working with creators. It's all I'm going to do it. And I was just very blessed that I've been doing this for over 10 years. So I've been in the creator space. Like I've been working with creators. It's all I know how to do. I don't know anything else. So it made sense to just call my friends and be like, Hey, I would love for you to join this journey with me because I think we're going to build the next

Facebook. How big are Tony Robbins hands in person? Oh, I got a photo on my Instagram with him and man, but he is just one of the most incredible people I've ever, I am, I got a photo on my Instagram with him and man, but he is just one of the most incredible people I've ever, I am, I am so blessed to just be this like outer, outer, outer, outer little moon in his universe. And it's just, it's a blessing. He wrote the endorsement on the cover of my book. And that, that to me was like, holy shit. Like there was a holy shit moment for me. Let's talk about the book. The book. Perfect segue. Yeah. I read it obviously, but talk about the book. Yeah. I mean, the book was written in 10 weeks. Cause I figured I was like, I got to get something out there before the Bitcoin conference. It's called unapologetic freedom, how Bitcoin can basically allow sovereignty for the world. And it's just a

story of the last hundred years of censorship talks about how it was like the centralized century to the decentralized century and how Bitcoin is a potential solution to defeat censorship globally. Because we're not talking just about media-based censorship of like, oh, you can't say that. We're also talking about financial censorship. And this week, when you saw PayPal's terms of service get updated and the entire internet explodes, like, wait, if I tweet, you're going to lock out my PayPal account. Or literally take $2,500 out of it as a penalty. Or fine you. And then you have people like David Marcus that used to work at PayPal that are saying like, oh, you can't do this. Oh, by the way, we're building a Bitcoin company. You're seeing the

elements of, there are people that work at these companies that believe what you say can determine if you make money or not. And I think that's dangerous. That's just a dangerous precedent to set. So how do you build an uncorruptible system? Because I also want to build Zion to go beyond me. Like, I don't want this to be a thing that's like, oh, this is Justin is the next Mark. I don't want that. I by no means do I want that. And I don't even want that pressure. I don't want this to be a thing that's like, oh, this is Justin is the next Mark. I don't want that. I, by no means do I want that. And I don't even want that pressure. I don't want to be that guy that has to decide what happens. I want this to grow beyond me. And the, the technical primitives have to be built in a way that I can't even decide how certain things happen. That's, that's a little bit of a different thing. It's a different of a mental state to be in because my goal isn't

to be this like CEO of this next centralized network. It's to, it's to build a primitive that will change the way we think about the internet. That's at least my thing that I want to build. So obviously digging into Bitcoin and the lightning white paper, and then writing a book about censorship, how fucked are we with our current social media and big tech? It's only going to get worse. I made this video a few weeks ago that there's a thesis out there and I'm going to proxy censorship to inflation. And this is actually what's happened in Argentina. The government of Argentina believed at some point that if you talked about inflation, it would increase inflation. So you

are not allowed to talk about inflation anymore. So what's going to happen on social at some point is the government's going to call them, be like, hey guys, there's too many people talking about inflation, inflation. So they can't talk about inflation anymore because it's increasing inflation. So now we're getting to a place where facts are facts, but we can't even talk. And I think that's going to occur. I think that's going to occur at a much more rapid scale. So they're going to have to decide what's happening and what's not happening. And you're seeing this two party fighting. You're seeing these elements of the centralized system that was built up until basically 2001 fighting against the decentralized century, which is the era of the smartphone and the era where people

have access to more information than ever. So I think that's, what's really hitting. So I think it's only going to get worse. And I don't even see that a solution of saying, okay, now Elon's going to buy Twitter. The fundamental business models are broken. Remember how does Twitter make money? It makes money by a third party advertiser deciding they want to be on this platform. But I was in those meetings. I was in meetings with Unilever. They spend billions on Facebook and Twitter. And they said, I don't want my content next to this kind of content. So then they call the technical manager, be like, Hey, take this content off Facebook or you were going to lose a billion dollars. That's it. That's how it's

happening. And it's not like their business model is going to change overnight. Yes. They want to do subscriptions. Yes. They want to do those things, but that's a big thing to change. And that's another element. We didn't want to be an advertising based business model. We want creators to subsidize the cost to be on the network. And then we want to take fees on all these transactions. Well, you talk about the 20 year cycle for these tech companies. What happens if there's pushback and they fail before something like dion is built oh man they fail what does that mean like so i mean there's so much push we've seen as you to your point with paypal i i don't know how that's affected paypal's bottom line but the optics are

horrible and there's been massive pushback and they actually reversed it this morning they reversed it and pretended that they didn't mean to do it. They're like, oh, no, we were just kidding. Oh, some intern, the intern. You're like, just kidding. I don't really like you that much, actually. Like, it was so obvious. Right, but it seems like we need to really, as long as it's going to take to build and scale,

that we need to rush to have another option for people to opt out into if they're fed up with the way that these platforms work. And that's the, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, personally, I'm spending all my life force energy on it. And I hope my, my goal is just to get more people that want to be part of this journey and are ready to like fight. Cause what I'm also noticing is that this stuff is so hard that it takes a certain person to want to take on that load, right? Like, if you think about it, the first guy, if you look into any, like, SWAT situation, the first guy through the door is the bloodiest.

And right now, I have a fuck ton of arrows in my back, and I feel it. But I'm okay with it, because I've been through fucked up shit in my life, and I can handle it. I'm good. But, like, you have to get a certain caliber of individual that's ready to take on that type of pressure, because that's what we're building. We're building shit and the incumbents are strong and powerful and they have forces all around the one not that the pressure is not on you. Will that naturally happen the way that it's being built or eventually for something to be this big as has been with history, does there need to be some sort of centralized authority or someone making those decisions? I think the technical patterns allow for sufficiently decentralization. I think that's

the thing that we're launching with right now is that, you know, people like is Zion fully decentralized? Absolutely not. But well, it is sufficiently decentralized, right? is that, you know, people like, is Zion fully decentralized? Absolutely not. But well, it is sufficiently decentralized, right? So that element, like, for example, I'll give an example on identity. You go on your phone when you're going to create an account on Zion. What happens is that the phone gives you a 12 word seed phrase. You have to write it down and then you have to repeat it into the phone. Then we ping an Ion server that we have, an Ion node. That takes the DID and the private key, and it writes it to a transaction to the Bitcoin blockchain. So forever, your 12-word seed phrase is going to be secured on the most immutable blockchain forever. And if you have that private key, and we know that it's Scott,

we know that that will never be tampered with, no matter what I do. That's your DID forever. And I can't do anything about that. That's the first element where you actually own your identity. No matter what happens, even if I get pressure from every government in the world that says, you got to turn Scott off. How do I reverse a Bitcoin transaction from two years ago? I can't. Like, that's just something like there's certain things that you can't do. So my goal and the things I want to build is even when the regulators come to me, I'm going to say, listen, there's two things. There's the promise that I won't censor you.

And the truth is I can't censor you. And that's the reality that I want to build is like, I can't world, not that I won't. Right. So nobody has the power literally to. That's the goal. That's the goal. But yes, with content, yes, it's going to be centralized at the beginning. Yes. Some of the payment elements are going to be centralized because lightning, if you really want to decentralize, you got to run your own node in your own house.

You have to do your own channels. We haven't figured all these things out, but they will happen over time. But to me, that's the beginning of a sufficiently decentralized network. I love the term sufficiently decentralized because people love to believe that it's bipolar. And there's this huge gray area and path to decentralization. And you cannot start fully decentralized, I believe. I tried and I fucking failed. That's the thing. I've been doing this for two years.

The first version was that. You run your own node, you run your own server. But then what happens is we have 3,000 people using this people using this 3000 lightning nodes, 13% of all nodes, they're messaging each other in separate instances. And we're frying machines all over the big all over the lightning network. If you looked at a graph, we were like literally half of the thing, because we connected to everybody. And we're like, this is not going to work. We have 3000 people, but there's 8 billion. How is this going to work? I had to rethink all that I was like, at first I was naive. I came as like, oh, everyone's going to run their own node in their own house.

It doesn't scale. I just didn't like, I was, but I learned from it, right? I'm like an adaptable creature. You are. And I think when we talk about centralization and decentralization, one of the things that is less talked about and seems like a glaring potential issue is you talk about the servers. I mean, we have platforms that claim to be decentralized, but they're running on AWS. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, so are we like full disclosure. We are. How can you not? It's impossible. Anyone saying that they are, it's impossible. Yes. There's this umbral thing that runs in your house, but I can overclock that machine in 30 seconds. Like these are not robust machines on the computer

science side. These things have to get updated. These things, if these things can put Bitcoin chips in them or lightning chips, that's going to be when the revolution just takes off because we already have secure storage for keys. The question is, can we have node management inside these devices? And I think that's eventually going to happen, but you have to wake up Apple and Google and say, Hey, we want this to happen on those devices. But that that's a 10 year plan. That's not anytime soon. And that's going to have pressure from individual. The market has to decide. Well, they're building a Solana phone right now. So are we going to see a Bitcoin phone? I mean, it depends on the, the, um, it depends on the manufacturers and even the Solana phone. I have not looked into the technical specs. Every phone has a secure storage

location and they're claiming like, oh, they've developed this custom secure storage location. I don't know how much hardware they're actually building. I know they're building an OS, but I don't know if they're actually building specific chips for their blockchain. I'm not really sure. I think they're building a chip that will have secure storage that will put a key in there, but most phones have secure storage for keys. It's kind of, yeah, I think it're building a chip that will have secure storage that will put a key in there. But most phones have secure storage for keys. Yeah, I think it's more of the UX UI for interacting with the blockchain and wallets and NFTs and such and not necessarily a different technology. Of course. Yeah, of course. And I think that that's interesting. Right. But again, what that is creating, in my opinion, is another walled garden, because now you have another thing.

You have to use another token. You have to use another thing like Solana is another walled garden. Because now you have another thing, you have to use another token, you have to use another thing, like Solana is a walled garden, right? It's another thing that you have to go into, into that ecosystem. I think that the world is much bigger and grander than that. I think interoperability is important, and interoperability on open standards is the right way.

We have like four minutes left, so I want you to tell me if we're living in a simulation. I mean, sometimes... This is what we talked about at dinner last night. I think, I mean, look, I think NPC theory happens, like confirms things with me more and more. I think that I don't know if we're living in a simulation, but I really feel that way. Some days like I'll wake up and the things that happen in my day are things that I either thought about two days ago. The way I manifest people is very weird. Like very, very weird. I've seen it in real time. It's very strange, like how things happen for me. So I'm like, is this real life? Is this not, is this like a story that I'm telling myself? So I don't know fully. Um, but I know that we can

change fringes of our reality. I do believe that. Can you tell them what an NPC is? Yeah. So NPC is a non-player character. Um, so the idea is that, um, there are individuals that are running around this planet, uh, that, and this is not me, this is someone else that told me this, that don't actually have souls and they are non-player characters and they're just out playing a game and they just do things. And, um, I think these are the people that if you've been to Austin, I live in Austin, you go to like sixth street and they're getting their face blown off. And if you went up to them, you couldn't have a conversation with them. Those are NPCs and they're

a big majority of the population. So it's somebody that you try to go and have a conversation with you. Like I can't talk to this person. So no, no, they don't know though. That's the thing that the caveat here is that they also don't know they're ignorant to the fact that they're NPCs. Can Bitcoin become the reserve currency for the simulation? I think that's the, that's, I mean, maybe that's, that's the goal perhaps. Right. It's, it's a better alternative than we have now. I mean, the more I learn about money, that's the other thing is the, the, the goal into Bitcoin was a financial education mechanism for me. Cause when I sold my company, I didn't come from money. I didn't grow up with any money basically. So like the amount of money that I received on after one day was an extraordinary

amount. I was like, what do I do? Like, what do I do with this? It took me six years to really educate myself of where does it come from? How does it work? What does it do? And the more I see my money going down, if it's not going up, makes me just question like,

can I just be like, how do I get closer to the money printer? Or how do I find an alternative? And Bitcoin seems to be one of the only ones. Well, I look forward to seeing what happens again in three to six months. Well, I look forward to seeing what happens again in three to six months and I'm sure that we'll do this again,

but I think that you're solving a massive problem and I hope that the Bitcoin and Lightning networks can scale to the level that you need for that to be adopted. I hope so too, man. And I just greatly appreciate your support. I love our conversations every time I see you. So thank you for being supportive of me,

of our project, like as a friend, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you guys. That's it for the stage today. Thank you everyone. Bang, bang. Bang, bang. Let's go.