The Wolf Of All Streets - From Losing Everything To Helping People Understand Bitcoin | Natalie Brunell

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

The end of fiat currencies is inevitable, but are we prepared for what that transition will look like? TV Correspondent, Emmy-Winning Journalist and Podcaster Natalie Brunell is not shy in speaking out about our corrupt financial system, and wants everyone to believe in the incredible power of Bitcoin. She shares how the 2008 financial crisis influenced her views, what she’s doing to help lead people down the rabbit hole, and why she believes crypto will help bridge the massive political divide in the Unites States.  JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER 📩 https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSOR ►► Have you ever had your exchange go completely offline during days of high volatility? Of course you have. We've all been through it. Those days are no longer with Bullish. Bullish is a new breed of digital asset exchange that empowers users to trade with deep and predictable liquidity across highly variable market conditions. They also have incredible automated market-making and industry-leading security. I can't get enough of this platform and it's fully regulated. Sign up here: https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bullish/youtube Bullish is licensed by the Gibraltar Financial Services Commission. Virtual assets and related products are high risk. Consult your investment advisor and trade responsibly. Bullish is available in select locations only and not to U.S persons. Visit bullish.com/legal for important information and risk warnings. EPISODE LINKS Natalie Brunell: https://twitter.com/natbrunell Production & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/ FOLLOW SCOTT MELKER • Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets • Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io • Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe • Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3FASB2c

That's really sad. We're just this nation that consumes and all of our stuff is produced elsewhere. We're not making things anymore. And there's not a lot of opportunity. People graduate with these expensive degrees and then they can't find work. I mean, I certainly was one of those people. I graduated from private universities and then my first job paid less than $30,000 a year. And then how do you catch up? Michael Saylor said this before on his interviews. How does someone like that exit and try to purchase their first house to try to get things going, to try to have assets? And so I think that Bitcoin presents an opportunity for more financial inclusion and

for this opportunity to save money again and accumulate capital, accumulate an asset that's going to go up in value as opposed to the dollar that's just crumbling in purchasing power. This episode is sponsored by my good friends at Bullish. Stay tuned for more information on this amazing company later in the episode. Proper education is sorely lacking for the mainstream about Bitcoin and crypto assets. Luckily, we have people like Natalie Brunel who know how to go on TV because of 10 years of experience on the news and sum it all up in 90 second soundbites. She's incredible at going on the news and making crypto easier for everyone to understand.

And she did that in this whirlwind conversation. You have an extensive background, obviously, in media and news. And it feels like you could be doing almost anything you want, but you've chosen to hone in on this very, very sort of specific Bitcoin space and you're dominating it.

But why? Why this? Oh, gosh. Well, yeah, I worked for more than 10 years in media, mainstream news. And I worked from I started as a cub reporter, worked my way up. I've done investigative anchoring, all of it. And I think I mean, there's two answers really to that. Number one, when you're a reporter and you're covering everything like crime, poverty, public corruption,

you're kind of seeing the biggest problems of our society playing out on a micro level and how they impact the average American. And so you kind of start to think, well, why are these problems increasing? Because I'm also at the same time reporting things like, oh, you know, this much money is being spent on this problem or this, you know, this new elected official says that they'll fix it by doing X, Y, and Z. But yet the problems would just balloon and get worse every single year. And I saw people getting more and more divided, like 2016 and on from that election on, it was like, you're either on this team or that team and there's no in between. You have to pick a side, which is sad, right? I mean, that doesn't represent the America I sort of thought I was growing up in. And number two, I came from a background and a

predisposition where my family lost everything in the financial crisis. So I think I always had that question in my mind of, you know, why are certain things happening or how does the system work? And even though I went to good schools, I didn't have great financial literacy education. So when I discovered Bitcoin and actually went down the rabbit hole, it connected all those dots for me. I was like, oh, this is why the financial crisis happened and my parents suffered what they did. But also this is why all of the things in society I'm witnessing as a reporter are sort of unfolding. And that's what made me super passionate because I felt like, you know, in that mantra, Bitcoin fixes this. It could really fix a lot of those problems. So you witnessed firsthand the problems that happened, obviously,

2008 and the last financial crisis. So how frustrating is it for you to see those problems being repeated? Yeah, it's super frustrating. I'm a millennial. It's like none of us can afford houses. My friends are worried that they can't afford to have kids. The world is being destroyed by pollution. I mean, it's all these negative things. And being in news, right, we don't report always on the great stuff. It's always what bleeds. If it bleeds, it leads is sort of how news works. And it makes me sad that that's the way a lot of people think about the future is without any hope. And I think that we need to fix all of these problems on the base layer of our economy. We need to fix the money because otherwise I don't see how future generations

are going to have hope and want to create families and want to believe in the system. Because I think a lot of us feel left behind. I mean, I certainly do. I graduated into one financial crisis and then now in my 30s experienced another one. And it feels like you're always just trying to kind of keep pace with the tide that's coming toward you. So. The hamster on the wheel that can't keep up.

Yeah. Right. So how does Bitcoin in your mind solve that? I mean, you're now, you talk about seeing in the United States, you're traveling all over the world reporting on this now, right? So I think you're getting a different view than most people being on the ground in El Salvador. I know that you've been and things like that. Do you think that in this country, Bitcoin can actually fix this? Or do you think that the problems are too grand and far gone?

No, I really have hope that it can be fixed. I just, it's sad to see how much debt our country's in and also on an individual level, just families. Everyone's in debt, right? Your house is your savings account, but nobody really even owns their house outright. They probably have a mortgage. You're in debt for student loans

and they're talking about canceling those. I think there was record credit card debt that they reported recently. That's really sad. We're just this nation that consumes and all of our stuff is produced elsewhere. We're not making things anymore. And there's not a lot of opportunity. People graduate with these expensive degrees and then they can't find work. I mean, I certainly was one of those people. I graduated from private universities and then my first job paid less than $30,000 a year.

You know, it's like, and then how do you catch up? Michael Saylor said this before on his interviews. How does someone like that exit and try to purchase their first house to try to get things going, to try to have assets? And so I think that Bitcoin presents an opportunity for more financial inclusion and for this opportunity to save money again and accumulate capital, accumulate an asset that's going to go up in value as opposed to the dollar that's just crumbling and purchasing power.

So that's my hope. And I hope that, you know, here it's going to be used more as a savings technology, I think, first, whereas in developing nations, it does have more utility as a medium of exchange, which I think is inspiring too. So then the obvious challenge is, you know that and I know that, but I feel like 99% of people, certainly in the United States, don't know that. Is that why, going back to the first question, is that why you've chosen to do that? Is it really just about education and spreading the word? Yeah, because I feel like I relate to people.

When I first learned about Bitcoin in 2017, I didn't get it. You know, I didn't get it. I thought it was like gambling. I really had never invested in stocks. My parents, who are first generation immigrants, they always saved in cash. They never invested in stocks. So I never had those lessons. And I really had to put in years of work to understand Bitcoin and why it's important and how it works.

So I do want to help people down the rabbit hole. Like I heard a quote before where Alice didn't get pushed down the rabbit hole. She was led by the rabbit. And I think that we need to hold each other's hands and be cheerful and constructive. At the same time, I also think it's ridiculous when we have political leaders who people have been trying to educate and they just won't open their ears, right? And they're so resistant to it. Or there's people out there that just, they probably have studied it. They probably do understand it. And they're just too, I guess, too much. They've benefited too much from the fiat system in order to be open-minded.

That's frustrating. But for the majority of Americans, I just feel like they just don't get it. They think crypto is Bitcoin. Bitcoin's crypto. Why do I need this? They don't understand what money is. They don't understand what money printing is or why inflation is bad. So like if I can help in some small way by using my skills as a communicator and as a reporter, that's I feel like that's such a great fulfilling mission. I think you just really got to the core of it is that it's one thing to educate people on Bitcoin, but they can't even understand why it matters unless they understand the fundamental meaning of money, what money is, how it's created,

and what role it really plays in our lives. And that you touched on at the beginning as well, there's no financial literacy being taught in this country. So you have to start somehow with a widespread education about money before you can even explain to them Bitcoin. It's a really major challenge. It's a huge challenge. Yeah, I mean, when I go on TV, I have maybe 90 seconds or two minutes to explain something. And that's been my career for the last 10 years.

So I do my best, but it's hard. You can kind of spark curiosity, but it's just so nuanced. And there's so much knowledge. You almost have to unlearn a lot in order to learn about Bitcoin. And I certainly had to. So I hope to inspire people. But at the end of the day, you can lead them to water, but they have to want to drink it and understand too.

Yeah, so I saw with your new show with Swan, which we were kind of talking about before, that you went to El Salvador. You went to Bitcoin Beach. I would love to hear about that experience. Yeah, so it was really great. You'll be able to see the stories on this new show, Hard Money, which I'm really excited about. And I went twice, actually, and I spent time both in Bitcoin Beach, El Dante,

where Bitcoin is really immersed in the economy. People are very used to it. You know, they're used to accepting it as payment. They don't necessarily understand how the technology works. But what's great is I don't think everyone needs to understand how the technology really works. We use the internet. We use our phones. It's fine.

Yeah. I don't know how to put together a car engine, but I drive my car, you know. So it was really inspiring because also everybody talked about hope there. There's a place called Hope House in El Zante where people are doing outreach in the community, helping people start businesses. And there's a lot of investment coming into El Salvador. On the flip side, if you go to San Salvador, the capital, where the president is, a lot of people are really skeptical. There's a lot of negative reaction to the Chivo wallet. There's just a lot of people who don't understand

it or they're older or they just are are intimidated by the whole thing and I think educational outreach needs to bump up in those areas uh because people if they don't understand it right I think they're going to be very very skeptical and so many people when they got that 30 worth of Bitcoin they immediately just changed it they didn't save it and I also learned that in El Salvador because of their economic situation there isn't really a habit to save. A lot of them take out loans, like merchants actually take out loans in order to purchase what they use to sell. And they basically live hand to mouth. It's kind of like paycheck to paycheck, which also so many Americans live like that today.

So more education needs to get out into those communities so that they do, even if it's a little bit, start to save. And I obviously know it must be overwhelming for them to see the asset be so volatile, but at the same time, it's given so many of them access to a banking system. I mean, there are a lot of people that were unbanked in El Salvador as well. So it's interesting to watch that adoption play out because we're in the baby stages. It hasn't even been a year since they announced it. So, yeah, so I think we'll see how it plays out. But I'm really inspired by that decision and what's happening in El Salvador. You sat with the president, correct?

Yeah. What was that like? Oh, I thought, I mean, I thought he was a gentleman and so smart and so insightful. He's a huge fan of Ray Dalio and Seyfedine. He's done a lot of reading. He's actually been investing in Bitcoin far longer than you guys might expect. I don't know if I can share how long, but he's been in Bitcoin a while. And he was a businessman before he was an elected official. He ran nightclubs and I think restaurants or something in El Salvador. And then he decided to run and he was mayor first.

And he talked about Bitcoin all the way back then when he was mayor. And and, you know, I think that despite the fact that there are so many headlines out there saying he's a dictator, I don't know what dictator would want to promote a form of money that he can never control, that he can never inflate, he can never debase. I mean, that doesn't sound like a dictator to me. There's a dictator or not, that part of the story certainly has nothing to do with it. I think you agree. I love Peter's movie, the performance movie that he recently put out. I thought it was a really measured and honest sort of appraisal of both sides. You talked about the fact that a lot of people maybe just don't get it and there's pushback. Do you think that some of that is just strictly tied to the politics? I

don't like the guy who's saying to do it, it must be a scam or there must be some reason that they're doing it. And so they're not even giving it really an honest look. Yeah, I definitely think that there's some segment of the population that is resistant because of that but i think most of it's just education i really do honestly whenever i asked you know do you guys like bukele everyone said yes i maybe found one person that was like no i don't like him uh everyone said yes it was more so bitcoin they're like i don't know you know um so yeah i i think it'll be really interesting to see how this all unfolds over the next couple of years. Everybody knows that there are advantages to trading on both centralized and decentralized exchanges.

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bullish.com slash melker. We saw the Central African Republic obviously sort of follow. Do you think that there'll be inevitably more dominoes? You're going all over the world. Do you have any thoughts or places that you think might likely be next? Well, I honestly thought another country would be announced at the Bitcoin conference. I mean, we got cool strike announcements, but it wasn't. Yeah. I mean, no offense. Like it was still a cool announcement, but not as big and monumental as the El Salvador news. So I definitely think it's going to happen. I just think right now we're in such a volatile macroeconomic environment at large.

And I think that there are a lot of question marks because everything's so globalized and connected and everyone's watching different central banks around the country and bond yields and like all of it's just I think we're on this precipice of what's going to happen. Some people think we're just going to fall off the cliff and there's going to be this massive bust. Other people say absolutely not. And they're going to kick it in and we're going to have a melt up. So I just I'm not surprised that it hasn't happened yet. But I think like slowly but surely more countries will. I really thought Argentina was going to be lining up and then the IMF put the kibosh on that really quickly. It's really hard to imagine many big countries taking a step like El Salvador did when you can see how hard and how much pushback there is from IMF and World Bank, United States, right?

I mean, it takes some serious guts to do that at this point. Yeah. No, I completely agree. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more Latin American nations, more African nations first, and then maybe some bigger ones. So obviously you have this focus on education. I mean, you're working incredibly hard, incredible amount of content. What do you think the average person who's now into Bitcoin, they get it, they've followed you down that rabbit hole perhaps. What can they now do to sort of become an evangelist and push the envelope further?

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean, I certainly think that people should try to have conversations with anyone that they have in their lives about it and also use it. I mean, I'm one of those people that wants to save my Bitcoin, but at the same time, like a little bit. To want to use, it's not hard to use, it's hard to want to use.

For sure, but you know, a little bit, I think that that's the best way to encourage someone's like, hey, can I send you some Bitcoin? And like, once you start playing around with it, you know, a little bit, I think that that's the best way to encourage someone's like, hey, can I send you some Bitcoin? And like once you start playing around with it, you start to be more curious. You start to, you know, feel a little bit more invested and have, you know, have some some some something you want to maybe experiment with. So I think that we should use it a little bit more, even if it's just to help teach people, get people on board. And I just think, you know, this is why I think we need more women in this space, because women are inherently more social and community driven. And so I think that they would open up more circles as well. And I would love to just see more people talking about Bitcoin

coming to events to see what's happening in the space. And I would love to see more mainstream news outlets embrace understanding Bitcoin and more political leaders embracing Bitcoin, which I think is happening slowly, but very slowly. MARK BLYTH, JR.: Yeah, I think we're on the way. Talk about mainstream news. You go on, you know, we both love Charles Payne, obviously. We're both good at making money.

But Bitcoin, Ethereum, these are on the ticker. I know. So I think we all have this expectation. We want to see them talking about it in the right way. But at least they're talking about it now. I mean, it really is a fully a part of financial media now. For sure. And I'm like running full speed because the second they do get it, I'll probably be out of a job.

They only call me whenever price is really down so that I can publicly cope on behalf of the entire industry. It's very uncomfortable. I don't know if it's just bad timing, but every time I go on like Varney or Charles Payne or any of them, it seems to be like a day after Bitcoin's down 10%. For sure. Well, that's that's when the most calls happen, right? When something catastrophic is happening or it's that run up to, you know, 69,000 and it's like, Oh, Natalie, can we talk to you? But yeah, no, I think slowly but surely they will get educated.

And I respect the journalists that are taking the time to really understand it, learn it, as well as the political leaders. I'm not a political person. In fact, reporting made me very jaded to politics. I started to distrust all of them, no matter what side. Yeah. And so I really feel hope that Bitcoin could kind of bridge that divide, especially the one that we have in this country, which feels so polarized, especially lately. I hope that it could be that one thing that both people can agree on. So how much risk do you think there is that Bitcoin also, like everything else that shouldn't

be politicized, becomes a political issue? I think there's a certainly sort of a perception that it's becoming like a very, it's Republicans love it, Democrats hate it. I don't think that's true at all actually when you dig in I think there's people that hate it on both sides of the aisle but also people that are yeah embracing it how do we avoid it just becoming another polarizing issue I know well it's the most Democratic form of money ever invented I don't understand how progressives don't love Bitcoin exactly I I don't either I definitely was more't love Bitcoin. Exactly. I don't either.

I definitely was more worried in the past. I think that one side would sort of hijack the message and then just by virtue of, you know, we got to stick it to them, we're going to be against it, which I feel like just happens a lot lately. But I'm more hopeful. And, you know, seeing people like Senator Lummis and Senator Gillibrand come together and just once that education does come out there, you can't, like if you're against Bitcoin,

you either haven't put in the work or you're basically, to me, you're like evil. You're like trying to hurt people financially. So I think that I'm actually filled with hope. I think that this is going to be something that bridges the divide. And I'm looking forward to see, even when regulation comes down,

I think that Bitcoin will shine when that happens as digital property, whereas the others will be categorized as securities and there's going to be more risk involved. I'm hoping for Bitcoin ETF soon. So we'll see. I'm very bullish on it. I'm very I mean, I think we're all very bullish. And I think that like you have to just sort of have an air of optimism if you want to be in this space or you get dragged down to the depths so fast, right? But even by just sort of toxic community,

the back and forth between the Ethereum maxis and Bitcoin maxis and all that. But I think that that's all gonna be very forgettable once we reach that certain point. Also, when talking about politicians or people in the United States who do or don't get it, I like to think about the fact that certainly my kids, who are three and seven, will grow up in a world that had Bitcoin. It's never going to be something they need to figure out or try to understand.

It's just going to be a part of their lives. So it may take longer than we expect. But like these 80 and 90-year-old politicians, I'm not cheering for anyone to die, but they're going to be gone, right? That generation will pass. And so it won't be some technology we need to explain or some new form of money. Well, and their kids have Bitcoin. Every single one of them is like Lagarde, my daughter. Yeah. Someone told me Nancy Pelosi's daughter has Bitcoin. I mean, a lot of these politicians' kids have Bitcoin. Senator Lummis's daughter, I think Orange pulled

her. So, you know, I think that that's what's going to be what changes the future generations as well. You're like one of the few who's had the opportunity to debate Peter Schiff. Oh, yeah. But actually, I think he's so funny because I think conceptually what he believes is very correct. Oh, yeah. He doesn't like Bitcoin. I think he's like a Bitcoiner at heart who just doesn't get Bitcoin. I know. Well, I think he just does it just to kind of be against it,

to be the villain, yeah, to be against Bitcoin. But honestly, Peter Schiff has taught me so much about economics, the Austrian School of Economics and how our government works. I love his books. And they're not Bitcoin books, but he fundamentally gets everything that Bitcoin stands for. But they are Bitcoin books.

They just talk about gold instead of Bitcoin. Replace gold with Bitcoin and like, he's got it. He's got it. Is there anything right now, speaking of sort of this inevitable adoption, but do you think there are any massive obstacles that we're not really seeing maybe that could be in the future

and could actually stop this in any way, shape or form? form i mean i don't think so when it comes to politics but something that's on my mind constantly is just i really do think we're sort of at the end of this this debt spiral in the sense that the music can't keep playing and everyone expects the fed to come in with the put but at some point there can't be a put anymore right so i do believe that there's going to be some sort of end to fiat. And I just think that that isn't a pleasant, you know, bow at the end with like, oh, we'll just go to Bitcoin and like la-di-da, kumbaya. So that's what I worry about and think about is like,

how does that transition actually happen? And what kind of bust, what kind of like unraveling and unwinding do we need to suffer in order for us to transition? So that's what I think about and worry about. It's really fun to figure Bitcoin is a global reserve currency, but really not that pleasant to think about the Mad Max like dystopian future that it might require for us to get there. But thank God for Bitcoin, because if Bitcoin didn't exist, like then what? Like then what? Well that's 2008.

Yeah. Like. It could have, everything could have collapsed then and there wouldn't have been this asset. So I guess really the silver lining is that there is a potential for a soft landing for the people. Yeah, I really hope so. Who get it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat. I can't wait to have these conversations a year or two years.

Yeah, me too. And I'm sure you're going to be like on mainstream media somewhere hosting your own show by then. Well, I'll be hosting my podcast still in hard money. So I'm grateful just for that. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you haven't already left a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please do that now. Spotify just added ratings, so please go ahead and click that five star. I'll see you guys next time.