The Wolf Of All Streets - Going Where You Are Treated Best with Andrew Henderson, Founder of Nomad Capitalist

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

At a young age, Andrew Henderson was advised to “go where you are treated best.” With a deep seeded love of travel and an entrepreneurial spirit, Andrew became an expert on international investing, taxes, property, citizenship, and regulations. He became a "nomad capitalist," building a business around teaching high-net-worth individuals how to manage their and protect their wealth in a cost-efficient and enjoyable way.   Scott Melker and Andrew Henderson further discuss going where you are treated best, coining the term “nomad capitalist,” second citizenships, wealth taxes, overseas audits, tax havens, offshore hiring, mega-wealthy crypto investors, finding a culture that suits you, the most underrated places to live, citizenship by investing, building an escape hatch, political homelessness and more.  ---- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co

Scott Melker What's up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. Today's guest is an expert on accumulating and managing wealth. Coining the term nomad capitalist, Andrew Henderson works exclusively with seven and eight figure entrepreneurs and investors who want to go where they're treated best. His book Nomad Capitalist is the number one bestseller on and business travel, and his YouTube channel has amassed over 260,000 subscribers. So it's safe to say that people are listening and taking his advice. In this episode, I'm looking forward to discussing the nomad lifestyle and how Bitcoin fits into the equation. Andrew, thank you so much for joining me. Great pleasure to be in the den. Before we get into the questions, you're listening to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, where twice a week I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading,

art, music, sports, and politics. This show is powered by BlockWorks Group, a media company with over 20 podcasts in their network. Check them out at blockworkgroup.io. And if you like the podcast and follow me on Twitter, check out my newsletter and website, thewolfofallstreets.io. Now to get to what's important. So let's start from the beginning.

Where does the term nomad capitalist come from? Nomad capitalist was, I ran numerous businesses in the United States. I started traveling because I realized very early on when I was probably 20 years old, I was doing business with back then it was a bondage phone. And I'm an old school business guy. I got business by picking up the phone and calling people and do you want to work with me? And I said, this Vonage phone, this voice over IP phone could be anywhere in the world. And so I started to travel. I was very interested in emerging economies. For some reason, I was very interested in Cambodia very, very early on. And I've been a big investor and big fan of Cambodia for years now. But I did all this travel. And eventually, I just realized that there are so many other

opportunities in other parts of the world, whether it's social opportunities, met people, you know, friends, dating opportunities, what have you, that were better. It seemed like, you know, interest rates, business opportunities, lower regulations, I mean, lower taxes, so many things were better in other countries. Now, there was no like one perfect place, but I realized every place had something to offer and some had a lot to offer. And so as I was selling off the last business, I'm just sitting on my couch thinking to myself, perhaps if I'm going around the world, as I was about to embark full-time going around the world instead of halftime, I said, maybe I'll be some kind of media creature. I wanted to interview people around the world. And I figured I needed some kind of brand. And I just thought, all right, what am I doing? I'm a capitalist. I'm traveling around, nomad

capitalist. And it stuck. And I started blogging about all my experiences going around, talking to lawyers, talking to accountants, talking to the CEOs of banks. And Bitcoin was a very new thing back then. But talking to a lot of people about doing business around the world and I was blogging about it and it became something, as you said, I guess, pretty great. So that's how it all, I never imagined, unlike any other business,

that it would become what it's become. Very, very similar to my story. I sort of loosely branded myself and then this thing sort of exploded and here we are having this conversation. You gotta be careful these days. You gotta be be careful to make sure it's going to stick. Yeah, it will definitely stick for better or for worse, I guess, in many instances. So tell me exactly now at this point what you're doing. Well, what I do now is I still live around the world.

I no longer live or spend time in the United States where I'm from. I built up a team of over 30 people. And basically, our business is a strategy and execution firm for people who want to have a holistic overseas plan. So if you're in the United States, and you are making a million dollars a year selling on Amazon, or you've built up $5 million worth of Ethereum, or whatever the case may be, sold your business. We help people who say, I don't want to live in the U.S. anymore. How do I spend, you know, nine months somewhere else, three months here? I want to have a residence in Asia. I want to buy property here. I want to make sure my U.S. taxes are dramatically lower. You know, how do I do all those things? How do I immigrate to other countries that are

tax friendly? How do I structure my company internationally? How do I hire people? How do I invest? How do I buy homes? And so the whole lot basically of stuff that I've gone through and have found it challenging. I'm sitting in a home that I'm in the process of renovating and decorating here in Bogota, Colombia. And we've got a great network of people, but the problem is nobody really speaks to each other. You buy a property, the real estate agent is off. How do I pay my property taxes? I don't know. You have a lawyer, you know, they don't know other stuff. You know, how do you handle the accounting to make sure you're not paying tax in Columbia as a part-time resident? And so we basically, you know, throughout all my travels, and now I've got a team that goes and finds people and vet people as well.

We've built this network of people. And then we can basically be the architect and the general contractor of someone's plan where it is what I wish existed basically, which is I hate filling out forms. I hate filling out paperwork, but I like the benefits of that paperwork. And I like the benefits of all this stuff. But you need seven different people sometimes to make these things work in these more opaque yet tax-friendly, business-friendly, lifestyle-friendly markets. And so that's what we do is help people do that. So talk to me about how a crypto trader and investor in the United States can receive any of those benefits, asking for a friend. Yeah, well, there's a couple different parts.

And what I always say is you don't have to go as extreme as I've gone. I went to the point of moving out of the U.S. full time, later renounced my citizenship. I spent all my time going between different homes. For some people, my lifestyle is so fast paced. So if I'm a crypto person, number one, I would look at a second residence and citizenship because I've had so many people coming and saying, when I have to enter my passport details and I'm a U.S. citizen, certain opportunities don't want to deal with me. I think everyone in crypto needs to have a backup plan at the very least. And certainly it could be a plan A that you need another passport or residence or address overseas to buy into some deals. I also think if you're a U.S. citizen, I look at the regulations, not only in the U.S. that they're talking about, I look at what they're talking about in other countries. They're going to make you disclose

under penalty of perjury. If you have crypto, they're going to try and tax it. They're going to try and do all kinds of things. They're going to, they're talking about a wealth tax. I've never in reading all the tax publications, we've never seen so much talk about any kind of tax than a wealth tax. Some countries, they're not, they don't lie. They say it's just going to be ongoing. South Africa, they talked about as high as 7% a year. Imagine that, right? Other countries say it'll be one time. Ha, ha, ha. So I think there's lots of different kinds of taxes, lots of kinds of regulations. People were happy about Joe Biden saying we're going to pull back some of Steve Mnuchin's regulations. I'm not so convinced that they're going to pull them back. I think they're just going to look at them. Fool me once,

shame on you. Fool me twice. The US government and many of these other Western governments are not your friend. I would be considering going as far as I went with expatriating. And I have a number of people coming to me right now who are accumulating wealth very quickly. And if they don't leave now, it's going to be a matter of a big tax bill. And so they call me the goody two shoes. Someone kind of insulted me with this and it stuck and I use it, the goody two shoes of the offshore business. I don't want to live a life where I'm perjuring myself on form 1040. I don't want to live a life where I'm cowering in fear. If I have crypto, I want to acknowledge I have crypto. And I've run a channel where I talk about citizenships I've gotten.

I'm open about how little tax I legally, legally pay. I'm not hiding assets. And I don't think that works in this year. And I think that anyone who is so, you know, I look back to all of us when we were young and just making money and we thought we're invincible. And I think there's so many people who are newly successful in crypto, which is spectacular, but they think they're going to beat the IRS. And I just think in the long term, the IRS is going to figure out a way to get you. So why not pull some distance between you and the IRS? I'd be living overseas. But the problem is, as a US citizen, the taxes and regulations follow you. You've got to follow all the forms. Actually, I used to, well, I DJed for about five months in Japan in 2006, and I ended up in a situation where I actually had to pay taxes in both countries.

Well, right. And now you've got to deal with tax treaties and foreign tax credits, and sometimes there's not. You have to pay dual tax. So Japan, if you're working, not a very tax friendly country. But I'm afraid for Americans, and I think more countries will do this. I just heard three lawyers in the last month coming out and saying they think that more countries will roll out this US citizenship based taxation. Canada's talked, you know, I hear politicians saying, how come you get to be Canadian, live in Dubai and not pay, you know, I hear politicians saying, how come you get to be Canadian, live in Dubai and not pay us? Well, I thought the taxes were for the roads and the schools and all those things, right? That's what they tell you, but you're not using, and now

they still want to tax you. So I think more countries will do it. But for now I would have, number one, here's the other thing you could do if you're an American is move to Puerto Rico and at least- Of course, 4%. Yeah, right. Although- There's a 4%. Yeah, I think the problem for a lot of people is obviously that what you have now still goes with you and there's no benefit. So it's really what you make after you move.

Right. Well, it's the same with expatriation. So what I'm saying is, here's the story that tells you everything you need to know. During this whole situation over the last year, the U.S. State Department has informed embassies. Occasionally, we find one or two that are doing their own thing, but they've informed embassies. Don't process any renunciations. Wow. If you were a crypto investor a year ago and you had $1.8 million and you were just under the exit tax threshold, and now you have $7 million or $10 million, well, now you're well over the exit tax threshold. It's long-term capital gains.

Now, what if Joe Biden, with his majority, passes his bill, which makes capital gains rates almost double? Well, you potentially, if your – let's assume your basis is very low, you potentially just had a $2 million adverse tax event. And so the problem is, you know, for me leaving the US, the greatest thing I got was peace of mind in that whatever nonsense they want to dream up. I didn't leave because of taxes. I was paying very, very little, if anything, legally, I filed all the forms, I did everything. It was a paperwork nightmare. And I lived in fear. But being out now, I say to myself, no matter what they do, I'm going to be covered. And so I think Puerto Rico is a first step, getting a second residence overseas, getting a second passport, possibly even buying a home. I know that for crypto guys or for people who are all in on crypto, any opportunity cost of buying a property

or whatever is an expensive endeavor. But maybe you'll rent something overseas just so you know you've got a place to go so it seems more palatable. But I really think there's going to come a time when Americans, I'm friends with a number of people who have renounced the US, some you know, some you don't.

And I think it's going to be the way that a lot of people who realize they're not invincible are going to go. I think it makes a lot of sense. Like you said, though, I think that there's a perception to a lot of people that it's becoming too late, but I'm sure that you work them through that process. Well, I mean, I had a guy who came to me about two years ago when he's working with us on three different occasions. And he came to me with a business that was valued at about one hundred and fifty million dollars. And he said, well, you know, what am I going to do? It's too late. Well, the company just went public and his share was worth five hundred million dollars. So I get it. I get that it would have been very uncomfortable and perhaps difficult for him.

He would have had to sell some of the shares. There are ways you can work around that. You can you can delay it. You can give yourself some time to accumulate the money, what have you. But I mean, I don't think it's ever late to do the thing that makes the most sense if you think the market is moving up. Obviously, I talk to people that I'm working with to make sure they feel comfortable in the direction things are going. Right now, most people are pretty bullish. I wouldn't want someone to renounce the $5 million, pay the tax, and then next year they have $500,000. So that is an issue.

I have day traders that are going through the same issue. Stock day traders, Forex traders. I mean, I hope they keep the minus touch. But ultimately, we all make our own decisions. And I think that it's never too late if things are going in the right direction. That totally makes sense. So where does Bitcoin fit in to this process?

Well, I mean, I think Bitcoin, if you go around the world, there's a couple different things that people that we work with talk about. I mean, number one is a lot of people don't want to get married. They have girlfriends and they have boyfriends or whatever. And that's obviously not as friendly in a lot of countries around the world where all they understand is marriage. I think a lot of countries still don't really understand Bitcoin. I think in a number of ways that's good because they have no regulations.

It can basically be tax free. And I think it's a matter of finding a place where you can go and choose your tax rate. Finding a place where you can go where what you're doing is respected and they're not trying to regulate it. I just saw news come out of Malaysia and Indonesia recently talking about how they want to lower taxes and how they're not going to impose new types of taxes that all these other countries are talking about. So if you look at a country like that, Portugal, people talk about for crypto, you know, tax friendly countries. I think that, you know, some fiat is going to possibly be necessary here. You know, what I tell people is I've had crypto guys where they, what's your net worth? $100 million. And I figure this guy can surely show he has $40,000 in the bank to get a residence permit in Costa Rica or something. And no, he can't. So I do think that having a little bit

of fiat exposure will allow you to demonstrate to bureaucrats that you should be let into their tax-friendly country in some cases. I think it's a lot easier and necessary in most cases to pay for, let's say, a second passport if you're doing citizenship by investment. It's the fastest way right now to get a second citizenship. And so if you're saying, whether it's my plan A and I'm looking to get out of Dodge now,

or I'm looking for a plan B to sit on that I can bail from Dodge at any time I want without having to wait six months, citizenship by investment probably is the fastest if you have someone doing the paperwork for you efficiently. And so that you're going to want some fiat exposure, I would generally say. So I think that the crypto, I'm agnostic to what you do with the crypto. I think it's just a matter of how you present yourself to the world so you can get into the places that you want. Sure. So that accounts for the person who's already in crypto, has acquired wealth in Bitcoin and wants to move.

What about the person who has no exposure to Bitcoin, but is a digital nomad, a capitalist nomad, as you're talking about? Do you suggest that they gain exposure to Bitcoin? Well, I've gained exposure to crypto. And here's my thing. I've learned from years of doing this, I don't judge. So some people tell me I don't have any crypto. I'm not here to proselytize to them that they should get it. I think sometimes when I ask people that question, from a tax planning perspective, I had someone yesterday, he's got $80,000 in crypto. I said, where do you think it's going?

Is it going to 120? In which case, probably not a big tax issue we're going to focus. If you think it's going to go 100x, then we should focus on that. You know, an $8 million capital gain is something that we probably want to talk about, right? So, you know, here's my thing. I left the U.S. in the most profound way. I'm sure I'm on the top of their Christmas card list because I make videos. I left the U.S. in the most profound way. I'm sure I'm not on the top of their Christmas card list because I make videos. I talk about it. I come on shows like yours and

I tell people how I left. But that said, 99 percent of people are not going to do what I've done. I mean, 99.9 percent of people. I think I've gained more freedom than practically anybody on Earth. I have no regrets. But, you know, most people, they grow up in, you know, Danbury, Connecticut, and that's where their grandmother lives, and they feel comfortable. And no matter what I say, they just remember that grandma lives in Danbury, Connecticut, and they're not going to do anything about it. And in a sense, I guess they're going where they're treated best. I think that they're doing it emotionally. I think they're doing it from feeding into the propaganda of this is the best country on earth. And even when statistically it's not, but I'm not going

to tell someone to get into crypto, but if someone's in crypto, I'm going to say, let's do this in the most tax friendly way possible. So if you're already nomadic, then let's make sure that you are nomadic because so many people who leave Canada, Australia, et cetera, they just leave. They don't do the proper work to exit the tax system. They keep ties to those countries. And five years later, they get a knock on the door. If you got that knock on the door two years after a huge crypto gain, you're going to wish you had taken the time to button that up. So for the non-American, if you've already left your country, make sure it was done properly. Make sure you have a tax documentation, memorandum, an opinion of some kind, whatever, to evidence that you truly are living in Dubai or Malta or Portugal.

And that's where you're going to be taxed and no one else is going to bother you. It sounds like the bottom line, though, among all of this is you have to be willing to make the commitment. You can't fake it you know people you you hear people uh talking in the crypto community about oh i'll just get the other passport or oh i'll establish a residence in puerto rico but i won't really live there oh yeah that one i love that one um i mean again again i don't want to like i don't want to pick on anyone but this i mean i hear that like i'm gonna get on a pontoon boat or something and like i'm gonna sneak back into miami and like you know the coast guard they don't defend those waters so they'll you know i'll just slip right in like a like a hot knife

through butter uh you know like they figured it out and i have people who call me and say i just had a gentleman recently where i said, I think you're confused that just getting the second passport doesn't change your residential tax status. Your country taxes you based on the fact that you live there. So the United States taxes you no matter where you live as a citizen. It's citizenship-based taxation. Most other developed countries in the world, with the exception of Singapore, for example, tax you on a residential basis. If you meet the criteria of that being your tax home, generally by day spent or by your center of life, your closer connection, whatever, you live there, that's where they're going to tax you. And so you can't just live in Canada and say, well, Canada taxes me, but I'll own my crypto as a St. Lucian.

That doesn't work. They figured that out. Just the same way if you're a business owner, you can't go and incorporate in Belize, fly to Belize for one day a year to have your corporate board meeting, and then go back to Canada for 364 days a year. They figured that one out. So the commitment is you actually need to not only move your assets, but move yourself, move your tuchus out of wherever it is that you are to a tax-friendly jurisdiction, or do as I do and have a paper home, but then move around nomadically. Makes sense. So you touched on the person who lives in Danbury, Connecticut, and wants to be near their grandmother, and the idea that they're living

where they're treated best. I know that that's one of your core concepts. Can you talk about going where you're treated best? Yeah. So my five magic words, go where you're treated best. My father said that, I don't think you've realized what he was starting, but he told me that back in the mid nineties when I was 12 or so. And the idea was he gave me this great permission slip. Cause I, as I recall, some of my friends at that age were talking about how, you know, my mom said when she gets old, I have to take care of her. And I told my parents and they said, listen, you know, we've lived in what we think is a great country. But my father saw the writing on the wall 25 years ago and said, this country is heading in the wrong direction. You're going to have an unstoppable velocity, momentum against successful people.

And we've seen that and it's gotten worse. And he said, this probably won't be the best place for you. So if you want to live not in, you know, Cleveland, Ohio or the suburbs thereof, not in the state of Ohio, heck, not even in the United States, because probably, you know, we lived in Ohio and he realized that was kind of going downhill to a certain extent. It was kind of the past. And he stayed there just for our family. He realized the U.S. was the past. And so my idea is, why would you stay anywhere where you're not treated the best? you are the enemy i mean aoc right we all know aoc the congresswoman from from new york she's like what she's 21 years old and she's doing everything she's you know between you know whatever and she just tweeted the other day tax the rich and everyone's like oh oh that's great that's great but but what are the rich where i lived as an adult in the u.s in arizona not exactly a you know the most blue of blue states.

They did vote for Biden. They do have two Democratic senators now. But when I was there, it was pretty red. And so they just imposed, basically, they doubled the income tax on rich guys. What's the threshold? $250,000. Now, you're not starving on $250,000, but with the inflation rate and the fact that everyone's making money online, I mean, maybe it's just my own little bubble here. But I'm talking to people who make $1 million, $5 million, $20 million a year. And there's plenty. I mean, they're just normal people. $250,000 is not exactly like, you're not flying private jets for $250,000. They're not even flying first class. Probably not. If you take one vacation a year, maybe you're flying first class. But you're right.

I mean, I'm calculating we came from Belgrade to to Columbia, and I'm guessing it would probably cost 250 to fly private. So but these people have no concept of money. Because as I learned growing up, if you make 50 grand a year and the next door neighbor makes 60 grand a year, he's a rich jerk. And that's how people understand. He's got a little bit nicer car, right? They go to like, you know, they go to the amusement park more often in the summer or they go to the nice movie theater. And that's the context people think in of envy. And so for me, I don't want to be associated with those cultures. And for me, living outside of them, being a citizen outside of them, and having my tax plan outside of them means whatever AOC wants to think of is not my problem anymore.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So that said, do you see any country where you would settle or do you think that you'll continue to be nomadic perpetually? Well, so let me clarify a nomadic capitalist and I'll touch on, you know, go where you're treated best some more. Nomad capitalist to me was the idea that you're open to the world, that you have a mindset that's open to different opportunities. And then it's kind of like if you look at Mongolia, I was in mongolia a couple years ago they're famous for the mongolian step right they have the nomads and they follow the herd right and whenever the herd moves they move and so for a long time the herd was in the united states jim rogers talked about if you're smart in 1800 you move to london 1900 new york

2000 you move to asia you move to Singapore. So me personally, even before I figured this stuff out for myself, how to lower my taxes, I didn't want to stay in one place. That's my personal decision. Taxes are no, I like spending a couple months in Bogota, you have the Latino culture, you spend a couple months in Kuala Lumpur, you pop into Eastern Europe, you're on the beach, you know. I have six properties now that I spend time in that I control my environment. But if you want to live in Dubai or Portugal or Vanuatu or Panama year round, you can do that. It certainly limits your options in terms of tax friendly places. If you spend two months a year in Colombia, they're not going to bother you.

You spend 12 months, they're going to bother you. So will I settle down? I don't know. Perhaps not. I like to tell my Mrs. H, my wife would call her, you know, I'd say maybe when we're 50, we'll get the dogs she wants and we'll live somewhere. Who knows where. But I think that, you know, going where you're treated best is creating your own lifestyle. I also think it's picking from the buffet. So where you live is not where you're incorporated. It may not be where your tax residence is. It may not be where you bank if you're using the fiat system. It may not be where, I mean, take the best that each place has to offer. You look at a place like Singapore. For me, outside of networking

opportunities, it's 10 times the price for housing is what I pay in Kuala Lumpur next door. It's a little bit too sterile for me. I don't have to be in Singapore. So I say, why would I? I would rather be in Malaysia. And if you look at the last year with the lockdowns, we had a lot more opportunities to travel within Malaysia. So that said, Singapore is perhaps one of the safest places to bank, one of the best places to store precious metals if you have them. So there's purposes for it. Meanwhile, do I want to invest in real estate in Singapore and Malaysia? No, I think in Asia, it's Cambodia, right?

So I'm going to take the best of everything. And as opposed to my family, which talked about moving to New Zealand in 1996 or seven, and it was basically, let's move everything to New Zealand. Now it's, let's move each thing to where that place is number one. If Singapore is not the number one place to live by your metrics, you don't live there. If it's number one for something else, then you do that something else. This all sounds incredibly attractive to my 25 or 30 year old self, but like a major headache for my married with two young kids self. So I think ideally, it's something that honestly, I would love to do. I love travel. I think a lot of people do that. What do you say to people who

have somewhat settled down or at least have kids that have school commitments and want to play sports and you know how I hang out with their friends well look at it this way this may not the best argument to a bitcoin investor but you know i live next door to a number of embassies or you know down the street those ambassadors or those embassy workers they move every couple of years they live all around the world is anybody you know shaming them that they ruined their child's life no we call them public servants we hail them They get a gold watch and a pension when they retire at 43 or whatever it is after their seven-hour work weeks. And so people are doing it, right? I mean, Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank lived all over the world. He had a stepdad

who worked for, I think it was the UN, and they were all over the place. And I think it gave him great experiences. Michael Saylor, I just had on my show, you know, grew up moving around as an army or an Air Force brat, different places, US and overseas, I think that shapes people. And so, you know, I can't speak to everyone's spouse. I had one guy, he said, my wife will only move to Spain. I said, great. So what can you do? And I guess at least he's out of the US system. So that's something that I screened for when I wanted to have a relationship. If you already have kids, here's the thing.

And this is why one of the baby steps I tell people is just do something. Again, maybe not the best example for a crypto guy. Go to Armenia, go to Georgia, go to Ecuador, put 500 bucks in a bank account and get comfortable not only that you went there and you didn't get murdered, as CNN will tell you, but that you go home and your 500 bucks is still there. And you can use it and you can take it out of the ATM and you realize that the world pretty much functions the same. There are plenty of countries that speak English, or you can learn Spanish, or you can get by it, whatever. There are schools. This is shocking to some people, but most places on Earth, they do have schools. And by the way, better schools.

Yeah, international schools, yeah. You look at the U.S. rankings. What are they, like, you know, you know 5800 in terms of math and science i mean i don't know i talked to one of my friends i said uh he's he's uh i don't know he's early 40s and he's got a 16 year old son i said bring your son over to asia for like a spring break plus spend an extra week or two i promise you he'll learn a lot more going around asia about how the world works about opportunities about, about the future, quite frankly, then it's going to learn sitting in school in Chicago. I can promise you that. So, you know,

I think that where there's a will, there's a way. Obviously, when it comes to one part of a relationship doesn't want to do it and the other one does. I'm not Dr. Phil, but that's something you have to work out. As you said, you've gone all in on this, obviously. You've been doing it for quite a while. And to some degree, you're going through all the hardships so that your clients don't have to, right? But how difficult is it to manage properties in six countries, you know, to juggle all of this if you didn't have a company like yours

to help you manage it? I think it's potentially very difficult because, again, you have to learn that things don't often work the same way. Now, they may work better in some places, but it's not the same, right? So I have a home in Tbilisi, Georgia. I've talked about it as an up-and-coming market, very affordable place to live, especially if you're trying to keep your living costs low. You can go there and live like a king for a thousand bucks a month if you're single. And, you know, I set up all my bills on autopay through the bank. That was very easy. But in terms of finding property managers, other countries having things managed, I mean,

everyone does things differently. Some countries, people are late all the time. Other countries, you've got to, you know, ask them a second time. And so I think that, I was just telling my wife the other day, I said, you should write a book about all these renovations that we've done and all the mistakes that you make and all the things that people don't know. And I mean, the world does not function like the US. I know that scares people, but I think that the opportunities are worth it, especially if you're talking about someone who's making the kind of money crypto people are making. I think it can be challenging, but I think it's a matter of either you hire someone who knows what they're doing, or you just go through it and take the slings and arrows yourself. I don't think

there's any shortcut, like anything in life. You didn't get 200,000 Twitter followers by just showing up one day. You put in the work. Sure. Is there a threshold of wealth for an American where you kind of start to see people inquiring about this or becoming more interested? Is there a certain level of wealth that they need to have where all of a sudden they find the taxes too difficult to stomach or that they just find the regulation and the bureaucracy too difficult? There's two answers. So in our company, generally we look for if you're running a business, you're making at least half a million dollars a year at a bare minimum, or you've got a net worth of a couple million dollars if you're in crypto or you sold something, whatever. That's the standard

for us because as someone pointed out recently, having 32 people, many of them doing research, building connections with banks and tax advisors and keeping up to date and reading. I mean, it's an expensive infrastructure to maintain. And certainly, as they said, I'm not selling that service for 500 bucks that I work with you for a month and we execute for a year and all that. So could you do it for less? Yes. The question is, you know, when is it painful enough? Let's be honest. California has seen a max exodus, still tens of millions of people who live in California, including some very wealthy people who apparently, despite turning on their televisions every day and shows like yours and mine and hearing that everyone, it seems,

and his brother is going and getting the heck out of California. They're still living in their place in Malibu, happily paying the tax. They don't have enough pain. So I don't know that I can help them. But if you're sitting and you're saying, I'm paying 50 grand a year in tax,

the way I did my first year or two in business and it became real and you're screaming in agony, there's a solution. Your ROI is not going to be as fast as the guy who's making 20 million a year and just has to move to Dubai. But if there is enough pain to motivate you to do it, all I would say is, again, don't take shortcuts. If you're an American, you've got to be careful. If you're not an American, you want to check out of your tax residence properly. And so I think some people who, you know, who are new to this, I think part of the reason we've been so successful with people in the eight, nine, 10 figures is because they know what it takes. They know what it's like to work with people who

suck. Right. And so if you're thinking you're going to get out and it's going to cost you 300 bucks, I think you're probably going to get a suboptimal result. And so I, you know, I would caution you against that. And I would say that after 17 years in business, you know, there's a value in paying a premium for something that is opaque as this, whether it's with me or anyone else. So that's my word of warning. Yeah, eventually you learn that you get what you pay for. It's such an old adage, but incredibly true. It's funny you talk about home renovations. You don't hire the cheapest person to renovate your home in a random country, right?

You hire the person who can do it well. You're correct. We just met the guy here in Bogota. He's a fantastic guy. And all the complaints people have about culture in this part of the world, which we've seen. I mean, try and email an attorney in Panama. If you get a response in three weeks, you found like probably a keeper. If they keep doing that at that pace, they're a keeper. Probably. This guy has none of the problems that you would associate with hiring a guy in Columbia.

And I'm looking at my life and it's like, we've spent how much? But I'm thinking to myself, you know what? I'm doing well. I want to live in comfort. Do I want to spend the extra $1,000 on the nicer floor? Yeah, I do. Because I think that that has an impact on performance in your business and your investments. It's why I don't feel good in Airbnbs that, that are poorly, you know, decorated, and they have, you know, one tiny little painting on the wall. And so, yeah, I think that that's something as an entrepreneur I've learned over the years, right, is that you sometimes think I could have done this for less. Yeah, you probably could have, but time is money. And so that's, you know, experience speaking, I'm sure you're the same. Yeah. And, you know, I was influenced by, like many, Tim Ferriss's four hour work week. Right. This is when I first was sort of introduced to the concepts that you're discussing now. And, you know, it's just a very, very attractive thing. But when he said in the book, hey, listen, hire that assistant, you know, have someone do those things that you just don't want to do. Free up that time.

It's worth the money. It's a really powerful lesson as you gain the means to do so. Well, I would say take whatever you're going to make this year, divide it by 2,000. That's if you're an entrepreneur, you're surely working more than that, but that's how many hours are in an average person's American work week. What's the value of your time? If you want to make it a mathematical equation, your time's worth 76 bucks an hour and someone's charging you 90, say you'll do it yourself. If they're charging 40, you should jump at that. I think the benefit of what I'm talking about, go where you're treated best, is we have people in four different places. We've got our biggest office. We have our own office in Belgrade,

Serbia with about 18 people. We hire smart people. It's tough to find good people as it is anywhere. But even though we're going to have some people who are going to make fantastic salaries, I mean, probably the US equivalent of, you know, a couple hundred grand, several hundred grand in their 20s. As employees, you know, we started people out at kind of a slightly above average wage. And so we can take more risks and then promote them quickly if they're good. We've gotten better just again, by doing it, understanding the culture, understanding what to weed out. And just basically, I mean, in the last year, I think our, our stick rate has been like 80%,

which is a great improvement from years past. But, you know, we're able to take those risks a lot easier in terms of saying, you know what, I want to hire someone to do government affairs in Central Asia, you know, hire someone for 750 that they do well in a month, put them up to do well, you know, you put up to a couple grand, they're living like a king, and then you bonus them from their kind of thing. So that's where the Tim Ferriss thing really starts to become more effective. It's the same in trading or investing. I spoke to Alon Gorin recently from Draper, Gorin Home, and he's a venture capitalist.

And he said the same thing. He's basically, you start everyone low. You know, you set the expectations low. You double down on the good ones and cut the losers, right? I mean, it's the same with trading or investing. You just take your loss quick on the person that doesn't work and double down on the ones who are good. That's the hard part, right? I mean, as much as cutthroat as people want to think we are, you never want to let someone go. But obviously, a lot of times,

it's better for them. No, it's the worst. But it's better for them. And I mean, everyone needs to go where they're treated best. And so if someone's not cut out for a role in your company, then they have to go. But I think, again, rather than hiring, I just had a guy yesterday, he came to me, another guy who's been around with us for like four years. He's made a fortune in the last four years, has a couple hundred million dollars. And he says, I'm going to stay in the US, I'm going to pay the taxes, but I want an asset protection structure. And I want a place where I can hire people, where I'm not going to be subject to all these regulations. He said, I just got something from like the unemployment board from a guy who

worked for me 12 years ago. I mean, this is what it's like to hire in the US. I mean, I remember in California back in 2007, I spent six months, I paid the appropriate taxes for doing that. They were hounding me for years after that. So if nothing else, just make your life easier. You know, in Estonia, they're doing taxes on a postcard or like on an app or something. It's done in three minutes. You know, go to a place like that where life is easier. And I think people are so, again, addicted to like how things work where they're from. I can always tell a failed person or a failed society when they say, well, that's just how we do things here. Because every country does something well. I was just in Serbia for three months. They're, you know, they're very smart people. They're beautiful people. And I love

Belgrade. I have a place in Belgrade. But there's there are people there where it's just like, this is how we do it. Listen, I like the directness. I like a lot of the things that they do. But they're not good at everything. And let's be honest. I mean, the like the directness. I like a lot of the things that they do, but they're not good at everything. And let's be honest. I mean, the results bear that out. And so I love Serbia, but there's some things that can be improved. There's things that can be improved in the US. I think they're slowly moving in the right direction. The country that you and I are from is moving in the wrong direction. So at least they have that. But this idea that what I talk about in Georgia, for example, the country of Georgia, when I first went there, they were putting things online and digitalizing and making things so easy to everything.

And they wanted to be great. And now they're kind of stepping back a little bit. But, you know, they said, what does it take to be great? There's not going to be any. This is how we do it. Dubai, the same thing. They bring in all the experts. You do this great.

You do that great. Let's put it all together and be the best. But it's so, the same thing. They bring in all the experts. You do this great. You do that great. Let's put it all together and be the best. But it's so rare to see that. So how many countries have you been a citizen of? Or how many countries are you a citizen of, I guess? Oh, well, I don't talk about all the citizenship. I kind of lose track. My mother called recently. She called my wife. She said, what countries is my son a citizen of now uh what am i working on five i think or six i used to have the u.s one and i got rid of that one um i think the record that i've seen is somebody had eight or nine so maybe i'll uh i'll shoot for

that but or maybe i'll decide to get rid of some more and i'll set the record for most citizenships renounced. Really incredible. So you've had probably every experience top to bottom in most of these countries. What are the pitfalls? I mean, what are the worst experiences that you've had trying to sort all this out? Well, the worst experience I suppose I had, I just posted about this today, was there are three cities in the world where I felt somewhat unsafe. One I have to add to the list was Managua, Nicaragua, because I was walking against everyone's instructions at a dusk, you know, at dusk at 530 on a Sunday night, when a guy comes up a motorcycle and puts a gun on my face and says, give me your wallet. And the conundrum I had was,

I had just gotten this, it was a beautiful Xenia wallet and I had gotten one from my friend too but the one with my friend it didn't open up to like let the cash stick in and so the new ones they were just sewn shut on both sides and I said listen I can't give you the wallet because they don't make these anymore it's like see how it opens with the cash like I think they I can't do you want a phone? And finally he just reached in and took my phone instead and ran off. And I guess I'm lucky that I'm still here. Those, that in San Salvador, El Salvador and San Jose, Costa Rica were the only places where I kind of felt weird. So, you know, outside of that, I haven't had that many problems where I'd like, I've hired someone. I did hire a lawyer once in elsewhere in in Latin America where my tailor reminded me of this today.

You never do this. I paid him the full amount up front because it was not that expensive. He's like, you never do that in this part of the world. I don't focus on the problems. There's been a lot of annoyance. I live in a world of bureaucracy because I help people and we're always improving our processes of how can we handle someone's entire St. Kitts and Nevis passport process. You have a stack of documents, this, that. How do we do that for someone with them not having to do the work? So I live in bureaucracy,

and I guess that does cause me great anxiety at times. But overall, I think that you've got to roll with the punches. And I think to myself, whenever I'm tempted to say, oh, this is so terrible. I call one of my friends in the US and they tell me how, you know, Charter Cable just promised they would come and fix the Wi-Fi that doesn't work, but they can only come next Friday. And I say, you know what, some of this crap just happens everywhere. And so I really haven't had that many things that really stick with me. What was it that finally put you over the edge? And you said, listen, I'm done with the United States. Well, I never really felt comfortable in the United States. I never liked the identity.

I remember, this may sound weird. I remember being 21 years old and I had friends who dragged me to bars and I just wanted to sit around, you know, making, you know, cold calls, you know, selling things to businesses. And they would drag me out at night and I'm going to go with like these, you know, cufflinks on my shirt, you know, French cuff shirts. And, you know, the girls would all like, like, what the hell is your problem? Like, right. Or, you know, people would, you know, like make fun of you for walking. I just kind of felt like this is maybe not a culture for me. And when I started traveling and meeting people in Europe, for example, I just, you know, you'd have these amazing conversations. I remember being in a subway in Norway with a guy right before the 2008 election, and he knew more about John McCain and Barack Obama than any American. And he's just talking

to you when he's there with his son. Hey, have a nice day, man. And then he started meeting women from other countries. And like these people, you know, they know something. And, and so I just never felt comfortable. So I left the country for that. And then I realized, you know, along the way, the tax benefits, because who wants to pay to, you know, fight a bunch of wars. But ultimately, why I divorced myself entirely and gave up citizenship was, and people don't understand where I'm coming from, I think in some cases, but I looked at Trump, I looked at America first. And I read between the lines to what that meant, which was, we want the smart Americans to come back, and we're going to

incentivize that we're going to de incentivize them staying overseas. And that's exactly what he did. With the tax cuts, but no one reported on was a bunch of expats got screwed. And you can read the Wall Street Journal in 2018 about the Australians and the British dual nationals who are running businesses in those countries, not exactly tax havens. And they had to do things that were terrible tax moves in the countries they lived in. You would never do to pay this one-time tax

that Trump did to make all the companies bring their money back to the US for America first. And I said, I didn't know that that's what it would be. But I knew that things like that would happen. I'm like, that's the Republican, by the way, forget like, you know, we're going to elect like a total communist or something that's coming. That'll be even worse. But I just realized even the party that's supposed to be on my side as a business person is saying, if you don't want to live in our amazing country, we're going to come after you. And I just said, I don't want to take that risk. There's going to be so many bad things to come now from both sides. Because 9 million out of

330 million Americans live overseas. They're not a political force. It's not like the UK, where it's common, or Ireland, or Armenia, where there's a diaspora, people understand it. You're kind of looked at like a jerk. Um, and you know, politicians play to that, especially if you're a rich jerk. Uh, I just knew that it was over and it wasn't a difficult decision because I had multiple citizenships. I had multiple homes. I was comfortable. And I just knew I had to make the choice to sever all ties. So it's largely because of the sort of idea in America that it's the best country in the world and nothing else compares and Americans can't be told otherwise. But it's interesting when you leave, that's far from the perception of Americans from people who live abroad, correct? I mean, what would you say at this point, after not being a citizen and

living in all these places, how do people view Americans? I think that Americans probably spend more time thinking about how people, how they view Americans than they actually, people spend thinking about how they view Americans. I mean, when Trump got elected, I remember I was in a bunch of different places and like the Canadians and like, you know, the people like the guys who moved to Bali and opened a restaurant were like, oh, yeah, Trump. To which I'm also like, even though I wasn't a big fan of Trump, I'm like, what is it your business? You know, so I think that there's certainly some snark from perhaps some of the people in the Western world. Nobody in Malaysia cares, quite frankly. I suppose when I talk to people, they're surprised that I know, you know, the history of North Macedonia and its role in Yugoslavia and that kind of thing.

And the issue with the Greeks and they're like, Americans don't know that. But I don't think it's a big issue. I think a lot of places I go, it's because people accept you as you are. What I will say is I think it's very concerning the U.S. because whenever I talk about America first, people say, you just don't get it. No, no, said, if you want to live overseas, we don't care about you. And, you know, it's so binary in the US, where you're either with Trump, and the election was stolen. And, you know, he's going to save everything. And what this amazing tax break from 39 to 35%, you know, you're really saving up for%. You're one step away from Dubai at that level. It's Monaco. You can smell the sea air of Monaco at 35%.

It's either that or you're a flaming communist who wants to destroy America and kick us all in the face. Here's the reality. I'm agnostic to it. I've gone where I'm treated best. I've hired Americans. There's been issues issues it just hasn't been as good and it costs a lot more money so why wouldn't i build a team of people where i can start off paying much less and then reward people who do a killer job by paying them american level wages for example um i don't believe that i owe people

anything because we share what we were born on the same piece of soil? I just calculated today, if I would have been born 54 miles from Canada, how I owe a guy in Alabama a job. But it's become so binary that you can't be if you're me, you're politically homeless. And that doesn't feel so great either. I'm sure. And I think that everything boils down to that binary sort of tribalistic idea, whether it's, you know, religion, politics, my sports team versus your sports team. You can make those same arguments if you were born, you know, a thousand miles to the right in one place, you're a Christian or you're Muslim, you know what I mean? Or if you're born in Boston and not New York, you hate Yankee fans and you love Red Sox fans so I think that's the nature of humanity to some degree as well but it is definitely on display and really amplified um in this country you know and I've always made the argument yeah go ahead I want to hear your argument but if you're like me

and you're you were born in Cleveland Ohio um you know what most people say when you meet them other Americans around the world I'm sorry to hear that um what was it in 2016 they finally the calves finally won a championship i don't follow sports but i guess they broke a 51 year streak of zero uh professional sports championships right i remember back in about the time my father was saying go where you're treated best the indians the baseball team i guess they've changed now or they're changing. I don't know. But they were in the World Series game seven. They're winning. And like in the ninth inning. Perfect Cleveland, they they clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.

And it's just if I'm from that, like, why do I want to be surrounded by losers? The Browns football team one year won zero. Zero. They won nothing. Who wants to be surrounded by people who win nothing? And they go back for more and more because it's our team. Get a new team. I mean, you could just choose a new team that you like.

And then people say, oh, he's just wearing the yankees cap he wants to be with the winner i mean when i was growing up right the yankees were always winning he just wants to be just a poser okay great you know what who doesn't want to be with winners who wants to surround themselves with losers i mean yeah that totally makes sense so i'm curious when you go to a new country you've never been there. Are you going there with the approach that you're on vacation or is it like you're staking out a new potential business venture? When you arrive, how do you identify good investment opportunities? How do you get in touch with the market? Who do you call first? What's the process like when you go to a brand new place for the first time? You know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs can identify with this.

I remember, and I love watching comedians, Jerry Seinfeld talks about how everything, all the time is a potential bit. You know, you're sleeping with your wife, there's something happens, that's a potential bit. Like you're never turned off. And so I think that if you're an investor or an entrepreneur, you can't turn that off. Right.

And so I'm always looking for opportunities. One thing I found is if you have a great attorney, they can often connect you with other people. So you want basically like the connector, someone who does it, you know, like an attorney who works with people from other countries. So you want them to speak good English. I remember when I first went to Georgia, for example, there's one street where all the Turks bought up the property when the government renovated it, and the prices went to the roof, and Georgians cashed in. And now the Turks set up all these law offices for people from Turkey next door who wanted to come and do business. You don't want that guy unless you're trying to meet Turkish people. You want the more international lawyer. One thing I look for, though, is I look for culture.

And you look at the culture in many Western countries. It is AOC. It is sent as a $2,000 a month check. It's universal basic income. And they have no understanding about where money comes from. They don't understand where a lot of things come from. Where does food come from? The grocery store, I guess they think. And so I look for a culture,

maybe that's been beaten up a little bit, you know, as a, as a, you know, I think a lot of successful people, they love hard workers. And I think if you've been through adversity, you'd know the value of hard work. If you're looking, you know, I had a friend who's actually one of the lawyers and he said, I never look in someone else's pocket. And I think that kind of typifies the culture where he's from. You know, people aren't looking to screw each other over. They allow success. They respect success. They want to be successful. I think that kind of culture is a good one. And I think the problem is I've talked about like the visa waiver paradox. If your country's passport can go to the U.S. without a visa, you are certainly a pretty wealthy country by and large. Maybe Greece or something is the exception.

But perhaps you've jumped the shark because you've become so wealthy you forgot what it's like to be unwealthy. Singapore is perhaps an example of that. And that is an example of what's not that. But how many other countries, the 42 or something that can go to the US, remember when times were tough? I suppose some grandparents during the war in the UK or something like that.

But when was there real suffering? Not many. And I think that that's a problem. It's kind of like the third or fourth generation who's inheriting you eventually become you know paris hilton or something i was in college in the late 90s in eastern europe you know budapest and prague those are the places you could go and get a full five-star meal and a beer for two bucks for sure not the case for sure not the case anymore it's still better but uh yeah uh you

know i think that it's interesting to watch uh i saw an ad i think it was uh it was a reebok in russia where they tried this whole kind of like you know woke routine and all the women was targeted it was like a 90 down vote and it was nice to see you know i go to serbia whether you like him or you don't like him you know the president vucic you know he does interviews with western politicians and he says you didn't know it is your problem you western people you have a pattern and it's like good finally someone's standing up like this idea that we should all be the same and follow the Western mindset. And, you know, if I go to a country that's in Eastern Europe, for example, and they think that the reason Sweden is successful is because they have high taxes, that's going to concern

me. So it all comes back to, you know, where are the heads of the people? So if you do decide to stay in the United States is there any benefit or are you basically just giving yourself an escape hatch in case you finally had enough or something goes wrong but you ever have a client that's just like I'm staying in the United States but I want a little help well I think it's mostly again they're picking from the buffet and they're saying from a tax perspective it's probably going to be very difficult. Now, if you've got a huge company, then perhaps there's some opportunity.

But if you're a trader, if you're an investor, I think it's going to be challenging. And you have domestic tax breaks available to you. But I think you can take advantage of other things. I think you can start to spend time in other places and get more comfortable with it. Perhaps take your spouse if they're more reticent, to places and show them. One of the biggest reactions I get from some of these places, like at Georgia, like in Armenia, like at Columbia, is I didn't imagine it would be this beautiful. You come to Bogota, I can probably guarantee you, you wouldn't imagine driving from the airport that it's as nice as it is. And you look around at the buildings and

everything's in beautiful shape and it's green and it's nice. And so I think getting out there is important. But yeah, I also think building the escape hatch is important because, you know, again, I'm a believer in business, in sales, in life, in momentum. Momentum in the US is headed in the wrong direction. And so if your momentum personally is headed upwards,

those are two very divergent forces that I think are going to cause a problem. And so do you want to be the guy who's calling me who needs a second passport next week and it takes five months? Probably not. So I would say, you know, you can't buy house, you can't buy insurance on your house once it's already burned down. That's what I would tell someone staying in the United States. And if you want to hire people overseas, because you've got a business, you can do that may not be a tax benefit, but it'll be a cost savings benefit. If you want to spend part of your year in a country that's up and coming, the places I live, I feel pretty free, cops aren't harassing you, they're not pulling people over looking for, you know, $300 speeding

tickets, they're not, you know, you just feel free. You know, so you can take advantage of any of those things as much or as little as you want. Do you have a favorite place or is it just that you have a favorite place for certain things? Well, to spend time, I have my own personal favorite places. I think Malaysia is perhaps the hidden gem. Kuala Lumpur is a hidden gem in Southeast Asia. I think Thailand, it's not a particularly a place that gels with me. Could be for some other people, but I think KL, more Americanized, more westernized. They speak English, multicultural, amazing food.

I think it's a great place. Housing is bigger, cheaper, so it's more comfortable for an American to go and acclimate. I just bought a 3,300-square-foot apartment. You're not going to find it as readily in other parts of Asia. In Latin America, I do like here in Colombia. I do like Mexico. They're not as tax friendly for year round living. In Eastern Europe, different culture for sure. More direct. I like Tbilisi, very warm people, very honest people, good friends. You know, Montenegro for seaside living. I think there's some great deals right now in Istanbul on property. Not a bad place if you like big cities. You can become a citizen of Turkey by investing $250 in real estate.

So those are some places that I like for homes and I've committed to. But I understand other people, you know, rather than living in Bogota, they'd like to live in Medellin. Rather than living in Kuala Lumpur, they'd like to live in Bangkok. So everyone can find their perfect places. But those are some of mine. You touched on earlier citizenship, I guess, by financing or by purchase or something, by investment, excuse me. And you just said you can buy something in Turkey. How long does it take to become a citizen if you purchase something in Turkey and what other countries offer opportunities like that? So it's a little funky in Turkey because the law was basically developed to help developers who have an oversupply of apartments in the suburbs. And if you go to the airport, you'll see these terrible deals that are basically focused at Arabs who they just want shiny and new. Right. And they don't really care where it's at. I work with agents who are more international based and we find actually good deals where you're probably to getting the appraisals in spending 280 to 300 and you're buying property. That process of buying the property might take a couple of weeks, depending on how fast

you negotiate it. If you're willing to stay there, Turkey's been pretty open during this whole thing. And then the citizenship process might take five or six months. Again, depends on how fast someone's handling your paperwork. Are you doing it through power of attorney remotely? What have you? That's five or six months. Other countries, that's to me the best deal. Now, it's not a great opportunity cost if I'm a crypto investor because I can go to St. Lucia, for example, which I did a number of years ago, make $100,000 donation. Unlike in Turkey, where I can sell my property probably at a small gain in three years, my $100,000 donation. Unlike in Turkey, where I can sell my property, probably at a small gain

in three years, my 100 grand is gone. But obviously, I have the use of that other 150 in the case of St. Lucia versus Turkey. So St. Lucia, Dominica would be the cheapest generally for a single. The problem there is, problem in quotes, you're going to have higher fees than you would in Turkey. In some of these citizenship by investments in the Caribbean. There might be six or seven fees, legal fees, due diligence fees, processing fees, application fees. There's different bank fees, world check fees. So it adds up. If you're a family, Antigua and Barbuda, St. Lucia have deals going on right now for the mid 100,000s. And so that's fast. And so for crypto people, I would generally just say do that because they're really incentivized to give you citizenship.

That's their business, basically. And Dominique gets half the country's revenue. So do you think they're going to turn on you? You think they're going to start taxing people? They just lost half of their revenue every year. I mean, and they're actually, unlike the US government, they're building low-income housing. They're expanding their airport to bring in more international flights. They're actually developing their country of 100,000 people. And so you're actually having an impact.

So those are probably the most common ones. Vanuatu has one I don't recommend. Malta has a program that's about a million dollars if you want European citizenship. And then there's numerous residence programs that put you on a slower track. But if I'm in crypto, I probably want to be on a faster track. I went to St. Lucia on my honeymoon. I have fond memories.

That would be a great place. It's a beautiful country. I should be wearing my St. Lucia flag pin, but it's been a great country. They've been very nice. It's been a great passport to travel on. Here's the other thing you don't realize when you're giving up that American-ness. And so if you get a second passport before you potentially want to leave your country, you get the benefit of testing it out, whether it's traveling on it, opening accounts with it, what have you, without having to learn on the fly when you finally pull the trigger.

Outside of a couple of countries, nobody cares where you're from. I got a passport just as an experiment from an African country. They no longer have a program. It was $45,000. And I went to Malaysia with it. I went to Singapore with it. I remember I went to Malaysia. The woman had never heard of this country before. It's this little archipelago. And she just looks, they're so sweet there. She looks at the book. She's like going through with her finger, like pulling the 30 days stamp. You know, there's a few judgmental countries in the world, like the US, like Australia, by and large, nobody cares. What does the rule say? Great. That's what we're doing, right? If you're Camorian and it says you can come to Singapore for 30 days, that's what we're doing. Right. So I think this idea that I'm getting rid of the U.S. identity or that you're not going to look at all around the world, the embassies, they've been missing in action for the last year. They're

not helping their citizens. They're not doing anything. If you want to fly out of Wuhan, cough up the money. How much is it? 12 grand? All right. If you have 12 grand, we'll fly you back. Right? They're not helping you. So I don't think that the identity of American or British or whatever else necessarily has a big bearing in the world anymore. When I was younger, I actually had friends who were American and went traveling the world and threw a Canadian patch on their backpacks. Yeah, right. That's what people do, right? So for those people, hey, you know what? I mean, nobody hates the Antiguans, right? I mean, you travel around, you're from Antigua. Oh, it's a nice island. People ask me where I'm from. And I guess I give different answers depending on the, the severity of the interaction, right? If it's a casual or whatever it may be,

if I'm going to speak to this person again, sometimes like I'm in a taxi, I'm from St. Lucia sugar plantation. That's why my family's in the sugar business. And why not? I know. Thanks for a good story. So I'm curious. I also spoke with Michael Saylor. I had him on the podcast, found him to be an excellent guest. I know that you said you just spoke with him. What was that experience like? And where did you, I guess, find common ground? Because everyone here is in love with his Bitcoin opinion, obviously, and what he's doing. Well, I think coming from a background in broadcasting, I do interviews. I try not to inject too much of my opinion.

And I find him to be a fascinating guy. I have a great respect for success. He's obviously done very well. He's built a great company to where he can put a billion dollars in Bitcoin. So I'm going to listen. You know, what I had a hard time kind of talking about was like, you know, he talks about go where you're treated best, move your Bitcoin around. It's so easy to do.

You can move a hundred million dollars around the world in a second. You know, my thought is, what about the person? I guess I just have having, you know, living in this space and having studied it my entire life as this libertarian, I have a lot less trust in the government. I think that they're smarter than most people give them credit for. They just don't care about you. You look at the government in Spain, this is the country when you, when we would go out for wine after I had some kind of, when we had a small team, there'd be four of us in Spain for

like two months. We would go out for wine at 630 and the restaurants would say, oh, I'm sorry, we haven't paid our liquor bill this month. We don't have any wine. You don't have any wine in Spain. It's like they pay you to take the wine in Spain and they don't have any wine. But the government is inept as they are. Do you know what they're great at doing? They're great at chasing people down who owe them taxes. So if you think you're going to hang out in Spain and fly under the radar, I have someone who can tell you with a $700,000 mistake, you're mistaken. The government is not inept. They're just inept at things that benefit you. And so I perhaps, I don't know his entire opinion because he's so passionate about it. I don't know that I got the entire opinion.

But I would diverge from his opinion if he thinks that you can sit in the U.S. And I don't want to say hide. He's a regulation guy. He's all about doing things properly. Absolutely. But I think that a culture where the government does not care about you is not a place to be holding a nascent, fast-growing asset class because they are looking to tax and regulate everything that moves. Right. And there's always the notion with Bitcoin that they can't take your Bitcoin. They can't ban Bitcoin.

I've always made the argument, as much as I believe some of that is true, they can certainly make it nearly impossible to convert it to dollars. Spend it. Look at the countries now. And I think South Africa was talking about that, if I recall. It's hard to keep up with all the taxes these days.

People want mansion taxes. They want all kinds of taxes. So you'll forgive me if I forget which country was the latest to say they want to do that. But no, I mean, people get so excited when they see what was the first one, like Overstock.com. Oh, we take Bitcoin. All these companies are taking Bitcoin. OK, guess what?

And, you know, the U.S. government or any government says, hey, you know, it's illegal to accept payment in cryptocurrency. Do you think Overstock.com or Walmart or Expedia are going to be the ones? No, we're standing up for the liberty of the you know, we're standing up for our libertarian principles. They're going to do whatever the government tells them to. And I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. But it is what it is. And so, you know, if this becomes like a total black market thing, you'll have a black market. I mean, people are buying all kinds of things in black markets, but it's not going to be as accessible. Most people aren't going to do it. Now, what Michael's argument is, is, well, wealthy people own assets and just pass them down for centuries. I agree. But I work with a lot of folks who, again, they have eight figures worth of crypto,

and they have like 500 bucks in their Chase bank account. So that's great. Pass it down. I'm sitting in a house. I hope that I pass this down or maybe I'll buy a bigger house later. I'll pass that down. But like, you know, I'm not in a rush to sell my property because I have liquidity and all sorts of different forms. And I'm very diverse and I have some crypto and I'm not against crypto, but I'm not putting every dollar in it to where I need to sell some of it to live every month and hope that wherever I'm at, they don't make that more difficult, if not impossible. And so I don't put much faith in the average person who goes along with whatever the government tells them. Perhaps our generation or younger are more, you know, anti-government, if you can say that. It's probably too strong of a statement. But I also think, you know, these hedge fund guys they're talking about, you know, the news lately with GameStop and all that, how many of them are protesting the Vietnam War when they were kids?

And now they're all for the system. So I don't know that, you know, you're going to see people stop being sheep and just going along with whatever to where everyone's just going to defy the government. Certainly not in the West. I mean, that's one of the beautiful things about China or Iran or countries like that. They're like, screw this. We're going to do whatever we want. Nobody in the Western world is doing that. Yeah, it makes sense. And the other issue, obviously, near and dear to your heart is if you buy something on overstock.com with Bitcoin, you've just sold Bitcoin and have a taxable transaction and might pay short-term capital gains for buying an ugly couch. I won't come into the quality of their sofas,

but you're also on the radar, by the way, right? Because now they've got a record. Yeah, we shipped this thing to like, you know, Bob's house in Saginaw, Michigan. And here was his method of payment. I mean, all the government has to do is come in and do an audit. How do I know this?

Because the US government comes into certain countries and bullies them and says, turn over all of your information on who has a bank account here. And we'll just comb through and see who the Americans are and check against our records. And so why don't they go to overstock.com and say, where did you ship all the ugly couches?

The people with cryptocurrency payments, done. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, like, why? Now you've got me fired up. Why do you want to live somewhere that is so, you know, counterintuitive to your values? I mean, people in the United States, right? You have an immigrant from some country that you think is a hellhole. And he's like, I couldn't wait to get out of there because they're Muslim and I'm Christian. You're like, oh, that's a good, what a great, what a smart guy. Why do you want to live in a country that if your values are freedom and privacy and being left alone and low taxes, you know, I like to sleep at night.

Maybe I'm more concerned, maybe I'm more paranoid than other people. I think once you become successful for long enough, you know, you realize you just, you don't want to mess around, you know? And, and I kind of think, why do I want to live anywhere where the values are so different to mine and just sit there and thumb my nose at the system? You know, I'm probably not, people think like, oh, Andrew's against the United States. I'm not nearly as against the United States as I was

when I lived in the United States and I was boiling in the soup. Now it's like, ah, they're doing their thing. God bless them. You know, I don't worry about it that much other than I happen to run a business where, you know, 48% of the customers are, are Americans. And I have to know, and I have to follow the crazy stuff, but none of this stuff really affects me by and large. And so I, I find that to be a tremendous piece, which is underrated in today's world. That makes sense. It sounds like though, from earlier in our conversation, once you've hit a certain threshold of wealth, they're going to get you anyways. Like you said, there's an exit tax.

So if you're sitting on 10 million bucks, you're not renouncing your citizenship easily without taking the tax burden anyways, right? By the way, look at Oleg Tinkov in Russia. He runs a bank. I guess he runs some other stuff. He's a billionaire. So that's a pretty extreme case. They're going after him. The IRS is going after him.

He got U.S. citizenship through some method. He renounced it. They claim, I don't know the situation, but allegedly there was some improprieties. I don't know the whole situation, but the IRS is going after him. And so, you know, the other country that has a citizenship-based tax system is Eritrea in Eastern Africa. You know what? Maybe you can lie to Eritrea. I'm not going to say that you should lie. I just, you know, I don't come from that kind of background, but I bet you could probably get away with it. Right. I don't think, you know,

the IRS is in how many countries, the U S is in how many countries they have their tentacles in every bank and every, everything all over the world. I mean, even now, sometimes I've had banks that are like, well, we don't know how to fill this form. So you used to be an American. So maybe I'll report it. I'm like, have at it, Haas. You know, because what do I get? But I mean, you know, you're not going to get away from it.

And that's why I think, I mean, the best time to do something is as soon as possible. And I have crypto guys from a couple of years ago that got their passports and then decided to sit on them. And I'm guessing if they had a million dollars in 2016, they have a little bit over $2 million now, I would hope. extremely successful. You've become the go-to guy for this. What's your personal end game? When do you say, screw it, I'm a citizen of the world, I'm on permanent vacation, I'm done? Well, the beautiful thing about my family and my father and my parents was that permission slip and the open-mindedness. The is growing up as a protestant in the american midwest i don't you know it's like winter is always coming i was just explaining this to a

to a guy in columbia today he's very catholic it's a whole different thing you know but you like you don't understand protestantism it's like we're from germany we're from norway like it gets cold like really cold and we're like we're always chopping down trees and collecting nuts and whatever people do like because winter's coming it's never enough it's never enough i don't know if you come from that kind of background i don't know if you're a natural entrepreneur you could ever just say i would like to do that i would like to go out and read the classics and you know learn seven more languages i i don't know that it's possible uh I don't know if you're wired for this that you can ever do that and I think at a certain point I've learned this in

this business I don't know that I learned it in past businesses which were designed to be businesses but in this the the beautiful thing is I can know that I'm actually serving people because you know if I have whatever amount of money and someone, you know, doesn't want to pay or shouldn't pay because I can't help them, my retainer, it's so inconsequential to me that I can only focus on things that I love, people that I enjoy working with, and I can focus on growing the mission. And just even if someone's not working with me, putting out the content to inspire people, that's really, I guess, the best part of this is seeing people who said, you know, I moved to Georgia because of you. And, you know, they're taking control of their lives because no one ever gave them that permission slip. So I think that from a human standpoint, which no one talks about this business, that's pretty fulfilling. I don't know

how you go on permanent vacation and get that. I agree. Nothing makes me happier than getting a message from someone saying that you inspired me to do this or that, or I followed your advice and stopped trading like a jackass and put my money into an investment. And now I have a lot more money and stopped getting liquidated. There really is a satisfaction to it. And that's worth, like you said, putting out content for free just to help. And if I can do my part to squeeze,

you know, several billion dollars from these bloated Western governments that squander it and put a fraction of that into the economies of countries that deserve it more and are actually headed the right direction, that also gives me a personal satisfaction. Right. So your mission will never be over to some degree. There's always a reason to continue going. I mean, I somewhat feel the same way. I don't think I can lay on a beach for the rest of my life. I do think perhaps it evolves. And I suppose Bill Gates is maybe a very controversial example this year, but I like his model. I've always been, since I was 10 years old, interested in philanthropy. I like some of the Bitcoiners who talk about I'm not helping the Scottsdale, you know, PTA wives. I'm not donating to that. But, you know, we just helped donate and raise $70,000 to a group called SOAR in Armenia that helps special needs and orphans. And in this case,

people who are displaced from the Artsakh region, which, you know, I'm not going to blame the six-year-old orphan with Down syndrome that he was living in the territory that was disputed. And so I was very proud of that. And we want to do more of that. I've done more of that, you know, privately, but this case, we got the audience involved. I think that's also, I think I would probably go nuts being a full-time philanthropist because I think it's probably too politically correct for me, but that could be a second act potentially. Makes perfect sense. Well, I know we're up against it with time here. So any final thoughts, anyone you want to say out there, anything you'd like to say to someone out there who might be interested in this, might be a

potential customer or someone who can't afford you, but might want some advice on how to improve their life and take advantage. I'll do the shameless plug for everyone on YouTube. This is the book. It's a green book. It's called Nomad Capitalist, How to Reclaim Your Freedom with Offshore Bank Accounts, Dual Citizenship, Foreign Companies, Overseas Investments. This is not going to tell you what to do. I was reading before we were talking today, what's the best country? There isn't one. It's personal to you, whether it's for incorporation or where to live or where to pay tax, whatever. But it's going to inspire you, hopefully, to take it beyond this interview, 287 pages of

stories. And here's what you can do. Here's what you can't do, opening up your mind. So that's $8 to $11 investment. We've got over 1,000 YouTube videos on Nomad Capitalist. We've got close to 2,000 blog articles on nomadcapitalist.com. And there you can learn if you want to work with us. It's a very boutique service. I'm working some overtime this month, working with about 15 people. So, I mean, you can see kind of it's not so, you know, we're not working with everyone that we could or would like to, certainly. But I think this is an area where you need to kind of immerse yourself in it.

It's not something where I would tell someone, you know, go become a customer today, because I think it's so hard to comprehend until you read a book or until you watch a hundred videos. I love what you're doing with stock trading. And I think, you know, it's obviously your approach is, is very unique. People have some kind of understanding, you know, what is the stock market? I don't know that people have the understanding of like, what is it like to be a dual citizen? And I think that you need to kind of, I don't believe in doing endless research, but I think you need to kind of immerse yourself in like, this is possible. The movies, the TV, they tell you that it's not possible. It's illegal. It's not true. There's a legal way to do it. And I think you need to, you know, have that voice the same way that if you, you know, grow up in a downtrodden neighborhood, you need the guy who built a small business to come in and say, you're more than this. And you

can do more than this because no one else is telling you that, but I'm going to tell you that. And I'm going to tell people who've thought that they can only be in their one country. There's a way to do it that's legal, that's accessible, that's rational. And I think that's what those free resources do or $8 if you're buying it on Kindle. Okay. So you shared the book. Now, where can people follow you? What's the YouTube account? Where are you on Twitter? Where else can we find you?

We are, we're not, well, we're certainly not at your level on Twitter, but we're Twitter slash Nomad Capitalist, YouTube slash Nomad Capitalist, Facebook slash Nomad Capitalist, nomadcapitalist.com is the blog. And of course, if you wanna work with us, you can learn more

about that there we've also got a way about having a live conference uh a couple months with robert kiyosaki and the former president of georgia and some other people um and so we're going to be teaching people about this stuff there so that's where you can find us we i'm trying to be everywhere it's hard but a lot easier to be everywhere the funny thing is that you're not only trying to be digitally everywhere, but you're trying to be physically everywhere. It would seem, which is impressive. Some days it would be nice. You want to switch back and forth. That could be the next thing. Yeah. Well, I, I really appreciate it. I can tell you, um, on a personal level,

it's something that I've considered for so long. And it w it was something that, uh, my wife and I somewhat intended to do and then kids. And so, you know, it definitely threw a wrench in the spokes to some degree, but I'm going to dig a lot deeper because at the very least, we've always talked about at least summering somewhere every summer, you know, getting our kids out of here for three or four months a year. And maybe we can do more, right? I had an old person I did business with in the broadcasting industry. And their saying was, go as far as you could see, and then see further. And I think if summering is where you start,

then it's where you start. And maybe you don't start as early as you think you quote unquote should have. But I think you look back and say, at least I started. So, I agree. Yeah. That's the case with everything in life, right? I mean, you're never too old to try. And if you think you are, sorry, you're probably done already. Well, I do appreciate it.

Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm going to read the book and I'm going to go buy it. So I'm looking forward to that. Thanks once again. My pleasure.