The Wolf Of All Streets - Grayscale Wins Lawsuit Against Sec | Crypto Pumps | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

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Hey man, I don't have my headset today. How's the audio? Uh, it's fine. Okay, so good, yeah? Yeah, for a minute there, I thought you were ran. Oh, shoot. That was just pretty shit. I'm not even kidding. Shit, that's like the worst thing that you could say, man. The worst thing you could say. What the fuck, man? What a way to start the show.

I'm not kidding, though. I literally checked checked you just said sounded different you know a little uh yeah i might skip today's show if that's gonna be the case when i sound like uh no you sound good and look at joe joe just live he changed his profile photo live on stage just now joe what is it with you changing your profile photo every month it It's the worst way to build that. It's an NFT space. I figured I'd put it as an NFT. Yeah, but I still see Joe's black and white picture.

Oh, that's good. Now I see him. He's some sort of superhero with an orange mask. Yeah, exactly. Come here to save us from the SEC. Let me see the panel. I think I've invited you.

I've invited everybody. So today's show, before we kick off today's show, let me ask Scott, any updates on Ben? Because Ben is generally relatively loud, so he's always there to comment on anything that's happening. But he's been pretty quiet on what happened yesterday have you heard anything since i know that ran hasn't uh no so i mean so i messaged him on the join ben coin account um just to check in you know obviously like when

you hear someone we're not friends by any stretch but he's definitely someone i've met and spent some time with and talked to quite a few times and And I messaged him, I said, is this you on this account now? And he said, for the interim, yes. And that's all I got. So I don't know where he is or what he's doing at the moment. I would imagine that he's talking to his lawyers about his options and planning his next move. But also his platform has been somewhat removed, right? He doesn't have access to his lawyers about his options and planning his next move. But also, his platform has been somewhat removed. He doesn't have access to his main Twitter account. He doesn't have access to his YouTube channel. So I'm not sure where he would be able to make a grand statement at the moment.

But yeah, honestly, I don't know. He does have one of his accounts, the Ben Tolkien one, as a platform. Yeah, it's JoinBenCoin. That's the one where i had reached out to him when i saw that he had tweeted about the the mutiny um and you know he did say there was a tweet from that from that account 13 hours ago that said ben is not owned by hit network or bitboy crypto it's managed by a separate entity entirely controlled exclusively by ben armstrong and duchess of defy the release and implementation of V2 is unaffected. And

we had said that on the show yesterday. But honestly, I was like, I don't know why this kind of struck me, but I find the whole thing profoundly sad. I just, you know, addiction relapse. It's a fake something that we've all largely seen in our lives. And then you go on Twitter and you get the usual sort of cocktail and I get get it. He was a controversial personality, but the usual cocktail of hate jokes. And the guy has a wife and three kids. And I think if you're a father and you have kids, things like that are going to strike at least slightly close to home. And I wish everyone would just lay off and move on to the next story. But the one thing you can guarantee about crypto Twitter is they'll do exactly that. All right, cool.

Let's kick off today's story. I think we'll start with the market update. And this market looks just depressing. The money just flowing out. I think I was watching Rand's show today. I watched his show, not yours, Scott. And just for a change. And then he's just talking about how money is leaving the market.

He's talking about USDC outflows averaging $25 to $30 million a day for the past month. And then he read out a tweet on his show. Now read out that tweet. Not sure if Ryan's with us yet. I think he is. Time-based capitulation in full effect. No new inflows. Daily addresses stagnant.

Devs capitulating. NFT is trending to zero. Only the true believers, the patient, and the redacted remain. This is the opportunity zone. Not sure if Ryan's there. And then Ryan and his show goes on for about 45 minutes talking about him doing a marathon in Portugal

when his wife was giving birth. This is a rad show. You get one piece of news, six pieces of his life story and how it's relevant. But it's a really interesting tweet and I'd like to get your thoughts on it, Scott, and anyone else on the panel before we dig into the main story of the day day which is the major stc enforcement on nfts anyone in the nft community

time for you to freak out and but scott would love to get your thoughts on the market and another i'll mention one other thing that ryan said is that um if you compare the period we're going through now which is a time-based capitulation if you look at the last bear market lasted 500 and something days. That means before it broke above the previous highs. That means if we are going, if we are, you know, if it's going to repeat, I know history rhymes, doesn't repeat,

but if it does repeat, and Gareth is here, let me see if I get his thoughts on this. But if it does repeat, that means we've got like 300 and something or 200 and something days left. It's going to be a long bear market. So we'd love to get your thoughts. Yeah.

Okay. First of all, yesterday, there was a tweet circulating that said that this was the longest bear market in history. And of course, one silly analyst posted it and then everybody reposted it. And it was a chart from Glassnode showing year over year percent returns, which are the dumbest metric I've ever heard for determining a bear market. Completely arbitrary, cherry-picked data and completely meaningless. It showed the last bear market being roughly 200 days and this one being over 500. And people were saying we're in

the longest bear market ever. Guys, that's nonsense. Are you guys watching what's happening in the market, Scott? Well, I obviously saw that the jobs numbers came in, which is pretty bad for the dollar and good for markets. I haven't seen Bitcoin. Bitcoin jumped to $700. Oh, wow. Bitcoin just jumped $700. Yeah. What happened?

Hold on. What happened? Bitcoin just jumped to almost $27, but is now pairing those gains very quickly. It's right now. But the dollar is dumping. Yeah. Oh, shit. That just happened now.

What triggered it, Dave and Scott? Jobs, maybe, Dave, because I saw that. Let me pull it up. You know, obviously, this is all happening in real time. But U.S. July job openings, 8.827 million, estimated 9.5 million. The minute that those jolts numbers dropped was when the dollar started to dump, stock started to pump, Bitcoin was doing nothing, and then clearly just followed. I mean, Dave, what do you make of it?

I mean, yeah. I mean, it's obviously the knee jerk, which people are going to fade. But when you get a candle like that, and you see all sorts of weird crap. I mean, market makers quotes haven't adjusted yet. You're seeing backwardizations. It's the standard game. People getting it liquidated or not, depends how many shorts are out there we'll see i mean almost all of these times this happens it fades to some degree but you know we'll see but it's it's not fading that quickly it's 26.8 can you can you explain yes so can you explain to us the job report and what we saw what was expected and why that uh led to the to the dollar uh dumping and crypto pumping so what i think the fed is more likely to pivot sooner or what's the outcome pass i was listening i was listening to you guys so i was just had the price now i was getting if someone can give clarity on

the job report i haven't looked at the job report. Has anyone looked at it at all? Gareth, you're here. You're obviously the perfect guy for this. You track this closer than anyone else. I'm glad you're on stage. Can you give us your thoughts on what's happening? Yeah, so thanks.

Thanks, Scott. So it looks to me like that Joltz number really kind of changes the narrative of the economy. Guys, hold on. Guys, guys, guys. Please check this. Walter Bloomberg just tweeted, Grayscale wins lawsuit against SEC. It actually happened.

Wow. Holy shit. That's why you're pumped, guys. Not job report. Okay, there you go. There's your crypto answer. Wow. There's that. Huge. That's fucking... Alright, Scott, you've been covering the whole ETF story and the Grayscale story for a while.

What does it mean? Yeah, Gareth, we're going to talk about the market in one second. Just give the quick summary here. So, obviously, guys, Grayscale was suing the SEC. So, Grayscale applied to convert GBTC, the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, into a spot ETF. Obviously, that was rejected. Grayscale decided to sue the SEC in an effort to rescind that. And apparently, they have won. Now, to be very clear, to be very crystal, crystal clear, A, this does not mean that GBDC gets converted to an ETF. What it means is that the SEC can no

longer use the argument that they were using to reject the application. They can do a host of things. They can go back and reject it on different grounds. They could approve it, of course. They could rescind the futures ETFs from the past based on the same grounds of the rejection. There's a lot of things the SEC can do here, but either way, the SEC is just getting absolutely annihilated. The shorts are going to get obliterated, Scott, because here's the thing you have to understand. This is within the context of BlackRock's and Fidelity's filings, too. What it means is that they cannot reject BlackRock and Fidelity on the basis of a lack of market of sufficient size for regulation. That manipulation argument that they've been making for years is now absolutely

gonzo which means that if gensler has even an ounce of political uh savvy so you got hot mic hold on scott you're breathing heavily so dave can you just can you repeat that again they cannot use which argument against so the argument that they have used with the most power over the last, you know, it feels like forever, is that the lack of a market of sufficient size to be regulated is because the spot markets are easier to manipulate than the futures markets. The judge is basically saying that's ridiculous. Of course, it's ridiculous. We've always been saying that. But they've been hanging their hat on that one. There is no way they can use that anymore, which means that either they have to pull the futures ETFs entirely, which seems extremely

unlikely, and politically political suicide, or they almost have to approve the filers who all have surveillance sharing agreements. They could make an argument to grayscale, okay, we're going to approve these guys, you have to amend your filing to have an information sharing agreement with whoever you are, and we have to evaluate that. That seems to be the most likely. So my strong suspicion is, and you also see it because you haven't seen a whole lot of the anti-crypto army rhetoric, because that's turning into a political loser. I suspect, and I've said this, I put this in Bitcoin Magazine, an op-ed that ran a week ago, that they're going to take the win and they're

going to approve the big boys ETFs and all who have sufficient information sharing agreement. And this is sort of the kick in the ass that I think will force that. And I think that's what the market's looking at. But people have been burned before. So who knows? Scott, do you want to invite our ETF guys just quickly? Do you want to invite our ETF guys? I'm curious to see what they're... Yeah, the team. Yeah, I want to see what they think. Yeah, I'll tell the team. Dave nailed it though. Dave nailed it though. So this isn't about grayscale necessarily getting an ETF approval, as we mentioned before. That would be interesting, but they're still in line

like anyone else. This doesn't push them to the front of the line. What it is, is yet another notch against the SEC in their arguments for approving these, which makes a BlackRock or other ETF more likely to get approved. And that's what it's about. But like I said, to me, more importantly, the SEC is just getting absolutely annihilated in court. They're not winning literally anything against the crypto industry right now. They're not pushing.

They just keep losing. Well, yes. First, I think Dave, for some reason, I agree with you. I just wanted to get their thoughts because we've had them a couple of times give us their – if they had to guess how likely the ETF is to be approved. I think they were sitting at – I think it was like 60% last time we had them on. I want to see how that changes because I think it increased drastically. We asked them the question.

We're like, hey, if Grayscale wins the lawsuit against the SEC, what would it be? And they increased – they gave us a really high number from them. Yeah, it was 75. So what they were saying was they had a 65% chance of approval this year of a Bitcoin spot ETF based on their assumption that Grayscale was going to win against the SEC, which they also had a high percentage chance of. But to your point, they said that would go up to about 75% assuming we're right and Grayscale wins. Correct? That's what you're referring to. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. We're going to reach out and see if we can get some of these guys on. I mean, Bitcoin now trading at 27,000, not a huge, you know, not the hugest move, but it's nice to see some volatility and some movement. But GBTC is at 24. GBTC just went over 20 bucks. Holy shit.

Yeah. That's going to be the trade right there, which it has been now for a long time because not only do you get the benefit of the upside of Bitcoin, you get the benefit of the discount closing. That's the only thing I bought on the dips this year. So yeah, okay. Smart.

And then, Scott, another thing you mentioned, and I would love to get more thoughts on this, and let me get the team to send out more invites. But the question I had for you then Scott, another thing you mentioned, and I would love to get more thoughts on this, and let me get the team to send out more invites, but the question I had for you, Scott, is you said the SEC is just getting annihilated. What does that mean for crypto? We see the judicial system courts play a key role

in preventing the SEC from achieving what they want to achieve. If you think about it, this seems pretty bullish after what we saw with the XRP and I was seeing with the trust with Grayscale. I just see that

to be an extremely bullish thing for crypto, but the markets are treating it relatively mildly. You know, it did spike up. There's a beautiful candle,

but it's still less than I expected. Yeah, I mean, maybe it's less than you expected, but go ahead. And also,

like, if you look at previous cycles, I mean, we're still in the halving cycle and the depths of this sort of sideways winter period. We already had the massive move up on bigger ETF news. Listen, the Grayscale win is huge, but in my mind, and I will continue to say,

there's nothing bigger than BlackRock giving the stamp of approval and applying for their ETF. That was the biggest news outside of an approval of a BlackRock ETF that we're going to see. But you also have to remember, and Gareth, we could talk about this, but technically, we had the most oversold that Bitcoin has literally ever been on smaller timeframes. Daily has been oversold down to 20 RSI and has stayed there for well over a week, which is longer than normal. There's bullish down to 20 RSI and has stayed there for well over a week, which is longer than normal. There's bullish divergence there with RSI.

There are a lot of reasons to think we would at least get a bounce. But for me, this is great news. It's nice to see Bitcoin moving, but it's not like we're back above 31,000 here. Right, Gareth? I mean, this is a nice kind of upward move from the bottom of a range. But Gareth, maybe I'll add a question to it. Could that trigger a recovery back above 30,000? Is that the news that we need?

So the key is, yeah, I mean, this is within a range. And so as a technician, remember we broke down below that 28,000 level. And so if we go up, that's going to be your first level that you have to attack. Or so Bitcoin has to attack 28,000. If it can we go up, that's going to be your first level that you have to attack or so Bitcoin has to attack 28,000. If it can recapture 28,000, then it has a shot at that 30 to 32,000 range. But right now, I mean, it's a great little pop, there's no doubt about it. But let's see

where things kind of settle out. You know, right now, it's still very vulnerable based on the fact that it broke that 28,000 level. I think it's very important to remember where the... Oh, sorry. Gareth, the fact that the dollar is weakening and the fact that now we saw a big drop when the SEC said they were going to delay the decision on the ETFs. That was the start of the drop that we recently saw. Wouldn't it recover with this and with the fact that the dollar is weakening? I see a stronger bounce. I'm assuming a stronger bounce than people are expecting. Yeah, so you're right. Anything where the dollar weakens, just like gold goes up,

Bitcoin and cryptos in general should go up. So the question then starts to be asked is how big of a drop in the dollar are we going to get? Like, is this a total change with the JOLTS numbers coming out showing so many less job openings, and then consumer confidence numbers are really starting to take a nosedive. I saw consumer confidence numbers that are just above the what we see in recessions, right? So if we do start to see that, and then the expectation is the Fed starts to, you know, not only do they not hike the rest of the year, but maybe there's the lowering or the cutting that starts coming into play by early next year, then it could be something that starts to push the dollar lower, and we could get a more sustainable rally. Now, that's going to have to so this is this is where it gets tricky, right? Because

you have that bullish narrative for Bitcoin. But then could it be that if the economy spirals into a really bad recession, the stock market takes a major dump eventually. And then could it be that if the economy spirals into a really bad recession, the stock market takes a major dump eventually. And then that's a negative factor for, you know, crypto and Bitcoin because of kind of the leveraging and panic selling. So it's really one of those things where like, as a technician, my job is just to look at the level and say, okay, this is resistance. If it gets broken, it's broken. But as long as it's in play, then I have to respect it. But if you look at the TA on the DXY on the dollar, it does look like it should be heading

lower because it's bouncing. It bounced off resistance. So you would assume it's going to test the lower end now, right? Yeah. So the dollar on a bigger macro picture, like if you go to the monthly chart on the dollar, there's no doubt that it looks to me to be on a weaker transition. So you likely will head down. It's just like, like, it's just there's so much more complications with the dollar. Because remember, also, if if things globally get out of control, like anything happens geopolitically, then everyone still rushes into the US dollar as the safety hedge. And then how does that play into it as well? So I mean, in the bigger scheme, if you you know, yes, I think the dollar does head lower. And I think generally, that tells us Bitcoin goes up. But it doesn't necessarily give us like the short term view of saying in the

next month, where's Bitcoin is Bitcoin reattacking that 30,000 level. For that, I have to go to the levels and just say, okay, 28 is my line in the sand right now, If we can get over 28, then we start talking 30 to 32 again. Yeah, I'm just trying to get some, so I haven't seen many articles on this yet. I'm trying to read some articles and some different takes. But what Scott said, and Dave, I'd love you to cover this, it does not mean that the Grayscale ETF will get approved. Is that correct? It doesn't mean, it's not necessarily true that they will approve it outright, but they have to. They can't use their same reasons. Now, bureaucrats can do all sorts of things, but this is not in a vacuum.

You have other ETFs that have been approved or that have been put forward. There's a huge crowd of them. And effectively, this backs the sec into a corner i mean they can't they're not going to appeal the supreme court this because they have zero chance of the supreme court they had a much better chance of the circuit court level uh so you know let's just put that aside so so this is done they now have to either come up with some other equally ridiculous excuse and try to find some reason or they're going to have to see reason. And I think people think that. As far as trading is concerned, Mario, just remember something.

The money that is likely to come into the market when ETFs are approved is slow money. It's not hot money. It's financial advisors. It's like a slow wave. It could be a very big one, but it's a slow wave. So when the Bitcoin fast money comes in, if it jams it back up to 30,000 in the next couple days, there might not be anything behind that. And so you see technical levels becoming important. But it's really critical to remember that we've had this feature of a market where you've had the slow money buying and the fast money, Paulie out as fast as they possibly can.

So the question is, that I don't know the answer to, is, well, the fast money, is there enough fast money to come back in to sustain a push back to the 30 level? Or are we going to sit here for weeks as all this stuff plays out? But the trend now is undeniably the opposite of what it was yesterday. Yeah. The SEC is just getting destroyed. The SEC is just getting

just beaten left and right. It's unbelievable. When has the SEC gotten good news from the legal system in any of this enforcement action? They're just going to have to stop. Like Coinbase is going to absolutely slaughter them

after the Ripple decision. And after seeing these things, the SEC cannot push any further. Let me read out- This is going to be the end of the SEC's war against crypto. It's over. Let me read out the Al-Qaiba fortune. They put out a piece pretty quickly. The US court, and this is a recap for the audience that anyone joined and trying to figure out like, guys, tell us why the fuck is the market pumping? Well, this is why.

The US court of appeals for whatever issued its opinion in Grayscale versus SEC on Tuesday, ruling that the agency was unreasonable to deny the crypto giant permission to launch a Bitcoin ETF. The ruling, which came after the SEC rejected Grayscale's latest bid to launch an ETF last October, opens the door to a potentially huge amount of new capital flowing into crypto markets.

So it's from Fortune. While retail consumers and hedge funds have invested in Bitcoin for more than a decade, pension funds and other big players are talking about why ETFs are important. Other big players have largely stayed on the sidelines in part because of corporate bylaws restrict what they may invest in on behalf of their customers. And then they talk about why the ETF is very important. They talk about the lawsuit over, the lawsuit over began, the lawsuit began last October when Grayscale sued the SEC after rejected the application to launch the ETF. Grayscale's claim focused on the disparate,

disparate, disparate treatment of ETFs that package Bitcoin futures contracts, which the agency has allowed since 2021. And ones for spot market Bitcoin, which has, which says repeatedly 2021. And once for spot market Bitcoin, which has which says repeatedly denied. So I'm going to get more I'm trying to see if you tell us anything what it means for the markets, what it means for future ETF applications. But it's just like, it kind of goes to the point that I wanted to make earlier before the news broke, is that we're seeing money flow out of Bitcoin, we're seeing NFTs trend to zero, we're seeing just

liquidity at all-time lows. Yet the SEC is getting just short on one side, and institutions are getting into the market. The smart money is getting into the market. So if you told us like two years ago, when is a good place when people were more bullish, when is a good time to enter? They'd probably say when there's good news,

when the smart money is joining, and liquidity and volume is at all-time lows, which seems like it's right now. Yeah, I agree 100%. But we do need to obviously dig into what's happening with the NFT market in the SEC because the SEC obviously getting pushback here. But in the case of impact theory, there's a settlement, no blame associated for anyone who missed it. That was the original topic here is that Tom Bilio's impact theory did a NFT offering and they basically raised $30 million. They just paid just over a $6 million fine. They did not admit any guilt, but this was the first time that we've seen the SEC really push against an NFT release as the release of an unregistered security i have to feel like their appetite for going after things like

this that may be it may not wane because it's low-hanging fruit and they can get these easy wins and settlements but i just don't think they're going after anyone heavily again after this none of those huge names they just keep just quickly we're at 27 400 scott so it's like five percent now so um that's a pretty good pump so gareth would you say that's before sorry i keep pivoting back to the story that just broke um but would you would you say guys like this is what would you expect from the market considering the news that we have today was that pretty limited price action, Garrett. Garrett, are you there? Scott, Garrett. I'm here.

Technical guys. Yeah, Scott, do you think the market is going to be 27,400? The next level that matters in my mind and that of probably most technicians is going to be the 28,600-ish area. Do you remember when we had 31,000 and we were ranging kind of between the mid-28s and 31? The big breakdown happened from the mid-28s down to 25. So now you're sort of in a range between 25 and let's call it 28.5. And so I would expect this move to push at least to there. And then we'll see what happens. Yep. Yeah, I agree with that, Scott, 100%, right in that 28 to 28.5 area.

Cool. So we'll keep covering this live, and we'll get some speakers up to keep covering the ETF, the Grayscale Wind, which is probably the main news of the day. There was other major news that I think, Scott, you've covered well. And I want to offer some clarity on this, and this is pretty important for anyone in the NFT community. The SEC has the next target um and and that's nfts and that's unsurprising the only surprising thing is that they targeted you know somebody who's trying in my opinion trying to do the right thing trying to do it right as well probably the the language they use now we have some things from the agreement that they had when they sold their nfts but impact theory sold on a fees and they said they're trying to build the next disney and the nfts gave access to buyers i probably should have looked into this a bit further they gave access to buyers i think to speak to holes or access to

certain shows all these little uh you know perks uh impact theory so tom billiard runs a show pretty big show he's got a successful company as well um and yeah he's tried to use the nfts as an access card to the show it's being part of a community which to me is someone trying to play by the rules i'm not talking sec's rules but you know trying to do the right thing with nfts a use case that makes sense but they got screwed hard it's not they only they didn't only have to pay six million dollar fine just for anyone that's listening, they raised over $30 million from the NFT sale. They're not only paying a $6.1 million fine, they have to refund all original NFT purchases. So every person that purchased an NFT will get their money back in ETH. And then all the NFTs will be destroyed. Essentially, they will be losing a minimum

of $6.1 million. And that's their loss, plus any other expenses, out-of-pocket expenses for launching the project. That, to me, sounds pretty aggressive, even though it does seem like it's a security. And it's just another reason for anyone building to be outside the US. It doesn't indemnify you, which makes it less likely the US will go after you. Lesky, what do you think, Scott?

Do you think that was a bit too far? Do you think they're doing the right thing? A bit too far could be the middle name of the SEC at this point. So, yes, of course, you think that was a bit too far? Do you think they're doing the right thing? A bit too far could be the middle name of the SEC at this point. So yes, of course, I agree it's a bit too far. I think that your summary was very good. But once again, this is the Kim Kardashian moment of the SEC with altcoins for NFTs, right? They basically went and said at that point that any major celebrity or influencer who shills any crypto is going to get an enforcement action from the SEC. They made a cute video and Kim Kardashian paid a fine, also did not admit guilt. To me, this is, you know, impact theory was probably the biggest name that released a major NFT project outside of maybe

Vaynerchuk. I mean, I think Gary Vee would probably be bigger. But Tom, you're talking about an extremely successful guy, a big name, successful podcast, big in the media. So I think they went after him to make a point and to say that these NFT projects are not going to be allowed and to basically stifle anyone who's considering doing this again in the future. I would love the panel's takes on this since we've been talking a lot, but that's how I view it. I think they went after, once again, a huge settlement. They get the quote-unquote win, even though Tom and Impact Theory didn't have to admit any guilt. Yeah, so before going into the panel, let me just read out. I'm looking at Founders Keys website. It's still up. It says

what they call a story-based NFT. So they build out a story, and I'm guessing they Founders Keys website. It's still up. And it says what they call a story-based NFT. So they build out a story, and I'm guessing they build out a game from it. They've got two projects here, one called Mary Muggs and the other one called Project Kaizen. So again, anyone in the NFT community, if you launch an NFT project and are doing the right thing in building out the project, you should be worried. That's the message I get from this.

So I would have liked to see the SEC take action against all the scammers out there, not sure what their jurisdiction is, but, or at least target the bad players in the ecosystem first, and then go after people like Tom Billiard, who's just experimenting. I think Tom Billiard needs new lawyers,

and I'll explain why in a second. But let me read out what the website says, just a couple of sentences. Our mission is to introduce people to empowering ideas that scale through story. And he talks about both of his projects. So that's the use case of his NFTs. It wasn't related directly to his show,

at least from having a quick check on his website. But yeah, we'd love to get your thoughts just for the panel and what that means for the NFT ecosystem and what other enforcement action you could see from the SEC. Just yesterday, we were talking about the SEC versus crypto influencers, and now we're talking about NFTs. I just have one question. How long before they go after Trump's NFTs?

Dave, we've got a few years. Yeah, he said how long. How long until they go after Trump's NFTs? Dave, your mic is bad, but I did get to the end of that. Yes, and there's other players. If you go through the list of big players in the NFT ecosystem, you've got Nike, you've got Dolce & Gabbana, you've got Tiffany, Gucci, Adidas, Time, Budweiser, Bud Light,

Lacoste, Nickelodeon, McLaren, Pepsi, all these guys launched their own NFT project. Now, I'm not comparing what they did to what Tom did, because if you read out Tom's agreement when he launched his NFT, 6C says, now we're building out this IP. Imagine that it could have gotten in on Disney when they were doing Steamboat Willie. And that's how we think of the legendary tier. They're talking about one of their tiers in the NFT.

That's how we think of this whole first job, quite frankly. So comparing yourself to a public company, to Disney, telling people, imagine getting into Disney, you know, in my opinion, sounds like, you know, buying shares at Disney, just before they launched a certain character. And then they say, seven says impact theory also underscored that this value would be derived from the company's efforts. And it's like they went to the exact language that would piss off the SEC.

And then the lawyer is like, hey, let's use this because the SEC won't like it. The value would be derived from the company's efforts. No joke. That's what Seven says. And in fact, we would use the proceeds from the offering for development, bringing on more team and creating more projects. For example, then one example is but yeah i will make sure we do something that by any reasonable standard people got a crushing hilarious amount of value what do you think uh i think that we shouldn't be surprised that this was i mean this

is a security like i you know i'm all for crypto fighting you know back against the sec where the sec is wrong but this is clearly a case of, you know, this is framed as a security. And I don't know if this guy got decent legal advice before he actually did it because, you know, to say things like this, this is a fucking security, bro. I mean, as simple as that. And since you just jumped on, now what about the news that we saw today? Grayscale winning against the SEC. Unbelievable.

I'm actually – sorry, I was actually on a call. It's tax day in South Africa, so we have to file and pay all our taxes. But I'm just reading all these things that are coming out here. It's a massive, massive win for the SEC. And it just shows when they have been fought, so you've got the fight against Ripple, they lost, or they lost half. The fight against the SEC, they lost. It just shows that if you can take it to the end,

there is actually a chance of beating the SEC. And every time we beat them, it makes us a little bit stronger. So I think it's a massive, massive, massive win. Yeah, I'm trying to get some different takes from Crypto Twitter as well. So we've got two big pieces of news today, one good, one bad. And let's go to – we've got David here as well but so we've got two big pieces of news today one good one bad and let's go to we've got david here as well we've got uh vivek um and i brought up a crypto rover as well guys we'd love to get your thoughts on two big pieces of news that we're seeing right now let me bring up call as well someone from the lively panel

yeah today we've got the SEC. You guys love to shit about the SEC, but when the SEC loses, all of you are quiet and are celebrating. And then when NFTs get crushed by the SEC, all you guys

are NFT profile pics. Let's see, Cole. Cole, you've got a profile pic of an NFT. Maybe time to change it. I just joined.

Times are changing for what? Time for you to change your profile. It is going great. We're at a very, very high. Everyone is traumatized today. The NFT community is traumatized. Impact Dewey getting screwed by the SEC. And everyone is sitting there buying crypto right now with BTC pumping.

Why do you think BTC is pumping, man? It's because our panel is buying crypto. Can I jump in, Mario? I think, this is David Towle. So just to detail, I just got on, I'm sorry. So just to detail, effectively, you know, this is a win towards GBTC being converted into an ETF. So I would expect on the basis of this news, at least for Bitcoin, it now justifies if you look at Bitcoin in a vacuum, which it's not, but let's look at it that way. You know, clearly it should retrace

the bump that it got from BlackRock's ETF filing, if not higher than that, right? Now that we are... That's 31. Right, exactly. You're saying 31, effectively. Yes, exactly. So certainly, we... Well, I want to understand something. Just one second. I want to understand something, because I'm reading something here. I'm reading something here,

which I think is incorrect. The stuff that I'm reading here says, Grace Valley Investments got a green light from a federal court to launch the first Bitcoin exchange traded fund in the United States. That should not be accurate. No, that's not true.

Yeah, that's not accurate. Who wrote this? Who wrote this, Ryan? Who wrote this? Call them out, Ryan? Who wrote this? Call them out. But it's Sabrina Wilmer and Alison Versprill. I'm not sure where it comes from. Yeah, that's wrong.

That's completely wrong. I'm just – yeah. I just wanted to make sure that we're right. Yeah, I think we're right. I think that's wrong. That's an awful shorthand for what happened. That's all. That's what it boils down to. To be accurate, right, there is no guarantee at this point that the ETF will go through. But clearly, the SEC has been knocked down in terms of its opposition. And so therefore, like I was saying before,

I'm just trying to make a very simple, you know, argument that we should at least, you know, retrace above 31,000, I should say, you know, north of 31,000, because not only do we now have BlackRock as part of the, you know, group that wants to offer ETFs. But now we have, in fact, procedurally, you know, more momentum to get past any pushback that that the administration or the regulatory agencies would go ahead and have. And so at the very least, with respect to Bitcoin, that's where we should go. The question is, is whether the market reach through this even greater than that. But I would be a buyer, not investment advice to anybody else, but I would be a buyer anywhere below 31,000 at this point.

Really quickly, Mario, this is really interesting. I just happen to be looking at the charts, obviously. I drew a big, anyone who looks at my Twitter, a big middle finger to the SEC over the chart pattern. But this volume right now, with six minutes left in the hour, is about two and a half times as much buy volume on this hourly candle as there was on the candle that dropped price from basically 28 to about like 26. So this is more sell volume, probably more buy volume in one hour than the entirety of the cell volume from 29 down to 25. Yeah, I'm going to play you this thing. It actually came from Bloomberg, funny enough. I mean, no surprise that the reporting isn't 100%.

But I mean, let's just quickly try and connect or get a laptop to play. One second. So what is that? So Scott, I'll ask you. Hold on. Here we go. Okay, I've got it. Go ahead. It's been a years-long pursuit for Grayscale.

Remember, it has been fighting the SEC's decision, and now it has the courts in their favor. If you look at the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust, this is the main entity that would face conversion. This is one of the longest-standing, largest trusts holding Bitcoin, in which retail and institutional investors have been able to gain exposure for many, many years now. We're looking at a discount to net asset value really narrowing here. At this very moment, it stands at about 24% under its net asset value, but that is expected to narrow as they get closer to the ETF conversion,

which has really become a main thesis for investing in this fund. And beyond that, as you're saying, there is a whole host of other ETF filings in the pipeline. Okay, I know, it doesn't talk specifically. It's not voting well for those firms. I will also say that in addition

to the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust finding some love on... Yeah, it doesn't say anything. Yeah, it doesn't specifically talk about what they said. But that first bit of news that I gave you actually did come from Bloomberg. Yeah, and just guys, can I ask you a question, just a broad question before going over? Scott, are we closer to being able to say that the SEC fight against crypto is over? I don't think it's over. I think they'll continue to go. No, not at all. So listen,

they're going to have to pursue the Binance and Coinbase action. I would just say that their case against Coinbase holds very little water at this point, more specifically after the Ripple judgment. Because if the SEC's entire case, and it's not the entire case, but the bulk of it is that Coinbase is offering the sale of unregistered securities. If in the Ripple case, we have clarity that the secondary sale of those is not securities, well, bye-bye SEC. But what I would say, and I've been saying this for probably months now at this point, is that it feels like the SEC and the anti-crypto army and the Elizabeth Warren wing, they just pushed way too far and the pendulum is swinging back, right? I mean, it's not popular politically, it's not popular with the constituency. And at this point, I think that there's just not going to be a political taste for much more action. I think they'll follow through with what they're doing. And I think we'll see a ton of

action against people who cannot afford to fight the SEC and who will settle. Cases like this that we're seeing with impact theory, right? They get $6 million, they get to make a little video, they get to call it a win, and they get to set a precedent to some degree that other people shouldn't do the same thing and could be in trouble. So I do think we're still going to see a lot of actions. I just don't see anything. I don't think that they have the manpower or the political will at this point to go after anyone sizable now that's my take i could of course be completely no but scott scott they're going to carry on going because they've got unlimited no no no wait i'll take i'll take issue with that ran let me jump on the back of scott on this one look the ftc right um FTC, right, has made similar cavalier moves, right, and has been smacked down by courts.

And the question really is, and I don't know the answer to this. Yes, they have unlimited resources. If they are given access to those resources, the question is, is whether the president, frankly, and his staff wants to go ahead and continue to support losing correct using regulatory agencies especially going into an election cycle that's easy losing there's no reason for them politically to keep trying more enforcement actions and to continue losing it's a very big risk now look at coinbase coinbase up 11 today 15.35 of course on the day unbelievable what's going on i mean look i think that the sec the sec i think the biggest thing here is that we're telling the sec that if you if you are big enough to fight back the courts are maintaining some kind of sanity and sanity has meant that in every single big case

that the SEC has gone up against crypto, the SEC has lost. I mean, that's where it is. Not lost, but is losing. I am thankful for Trump-appointed judges. Me too. Me too. And I think that if americans vote for the biden administration

again in 2024 then i think americans deserve whatever they get whatever that means that's what i believe ouch i think i think people that vote biden trump last thing they're thinking about is crypto i think there's a lot bigger issues that people worry yeah if you're voting for biden or trump then crypto is the last thing on're thinking about is crypto. I think there's a lot bigger issues that people are worried about. Yeah, if you're voting for Biden or Trump, then crypto is the last thing on your mind because they both hate it, let's be honest. Scott, right now, if there's a Biden-Trump

rundown, and I know you're a Democrat. How are things in South Africa these days, Ran, because I'm thinking about... I'm just asking, if there's a Biden-Trump showdown in 2024, as it stands right now, as a Democrat, where's your vote going? I'm not a Democrat. You told me you were a registered Democrat once.

No, I used to be. I'm registered unaffiliated for the past eight years or something like that. I don't know. To be honest, I would write in Pee Wee Herman or something. I can't I can't in good conscience vote for either of them. I hate to get into uh you know i hate getting threats and trolls but i also have a personal relationship with my family that's not positive mario mario scott scott can't give me a straight answer if you were american and right now there was a biden trump showdown and you had to and you had to uh uh take a vote where do you go i'm about to tweet something with banter bubbles being used. I'll screenshot a banter bubble. So if you have two choices,

force me to answer this question or not tweet banter bubbles. If I tweet banter bubbles, can I not answer the question? Dave, Dave, Dave, Dave, I want to hear your thing. American Trump versus Biden today on the ballot paper.

Who are you voting? And then Dave, I want to add a question to it, if you don't mind. I'll answer Ryan's question. One of the questions. I'll tweet it. I'll tweet it. I'll tweet it. It's out.

It's out just now. Can I add one more question, Ryan? One more question. How this news compares to the XRP news we saw to crypto? So two questions. The XRP news was bigger. This is great. I agree with that.

It brings us one step closer to getting an ETF, but that doesn't change the future of the industry and what is a security and what's not a security. But that makes the ETF a lot more likely to be approved. And for us, the ETF is the biggest news. Yeah, but I think, Mario, I think that the application by BlackRock was bigger. That's all.

From a speculator standpoint, this is bigger. Would you rather have, when you're kids, you play the game, would you rather? Would you rather have a Bitcoin ETF or a ruling that the altcoins aren't securities? Which one is more beneficial for you in the long term? The ruling is not as powerful as an ETF getting approved. The ruling… No, the one changes the trajectory of the entire industry. The other one is just some more buying pressure.

Very different. But, Ran, as a speculator, this is bigger news. If you're purely a speculator, this is bigger news. No, it's not. Come on, this is on one asset. This is on Bitcoin. What about the other assets? I'll agree with Ran on that. This is David Towle. This is very Bitcoin narrow. And frankly,

if again, going back to the SEC, I don't know what their what its mandate is in terms of how far it can go. But it could continue to pursue everything else that's gone on its plate, you know, except for Bitcoin related actions, which at the end of the day, we all knew eventually the SEC would have to throw up its arms and say, we agree that we've always said that Bitcoin is not a security. And therefore, you know, we should be comfortable allowing for a spot Bitcoin ETF. I firmly believe that everybody here figured we'd eventually get there and frankly, sooner rather than later. The question now is, and I agree, I would much rather the XRP ruling Do you think people, the mass market will adopt Bitcoin or they'll adopt altcoins? And in my perspective, it's Bitcoin. And that's why I think it's bigger. I do believe that there is room in the world for other currencies. There's other use cases. I think that this needs to go bigger than that. Yeah, my portfolio is heavily weighted to Bitcoin right now. That's just the trading posture as opposed to a long-term belief in the sector.

I don't even understand. I don't understand how intelligent people are having a discussion like this. This is a ruling which is getting us one step closer. It doesn't even approve an ETF. It's just one step closer to a Bitcoin-only ETF. The XRP case basically says all the innovation that we're doing that is not Bitcoin may actually not actually be a security

and therefore we can actually continue to innovate. Clearly, the XRP case is way bigger. Come on. Yeah, I would argue. Ran, how many people do you know adopted altcoins before they adopted Bitcoin? This, to me, is the entryway for the mass market. It was.

Ran, you're also missing the political... Ran, you're missing the political interdependence here. If Bitcoin ETF is approved and it becomes part of the mainstream dialogue, it's a gateway. And politicians aren't that subtle. And so the question then becomes, what's the likelihood if it becomes a popular asset with lots of adherence, with lots of people, that fit act is going to be you know something considered anathema to the democrats we've already seen breaks in that this actually does have big influence

there is cross it does matter because politicians don't know bitcoin maxis versus you know they don't think that way the fact is either crypto becomes something that they want to stall and fight, or they don't. And if it becomes don't, then it's not whether it's a security or not, because right now there are no rules with security. The only reason Bitcoin or altcoins being a security is an issue is because the rules don't work for them. Given an act that forces the SEC and CFTC to write rules that will work, then it changes the narrative. And so that's what's going on here. That's why this matters, not just for Bitcoin.

That's why Ether is rallying today too, not just Bitcoin. I would argue that the BlackRock ETF application was way bigger than the Grayscale win, personally. I just think that that's bigger news. Yeah. But this is a step in the right direction. I also think that the Ripple decision was bigger than this. I agree with Ran on that more because I think, once again, it's going to be a major crack in the case against Coinbase. And I think the case against Coinbase is the pivotal moment whenever that finally gets settled for this industry.

Yeah. And I don't disagree with you there. I just think that look what happened to the price of crypto, the price of Bitcoin when the BlackRock ETF application came in. 25 to 31, right? We went 25 to 31. Yeah, exactly. Are we going to at least break 28.6? If we don't break 28.6 for this news, this is a depressing, depressing bear market. Did you expect the SEC to lose this case? Honestly. Yes. Did anyone? Yes.

I only expected the SEC to lose this case, not because I have any insight, but because we have experts on here who have insight and are the ones who are looking at this every day and who have priced that out. Like you said, I mean, we had Eric Balchunas and James Safer both on here who said that they thought, you know, Grayscale was going to beat the SEC. Listen, from the very first day, I don't know if you guys remember, but the first day in court, the judge of this particular case, the judge was extremely dismissive of the SEC's case, questioned it outright from the very beginning and almost implied that it shouldn't even be in

court because it was kind of absurd. So I think that most people from day one believe that Grayscale had a very good chance of winning. The thing is, and once again, just to reiterate, that doesn't mean that we get the conclusion that we want from it, which is why I don't see this as big of news, because the SEC can play this in a number of ways that would not necessarily be beneficial for the industry. Just, can I say something, Mario? Hello, everyone. How are you? Hey, man. How are you? All right. Long time. Just from, I would like to give like a more global view of things. I think sitting out here and going around, I can see that basically the US cannot stay as an outlier

when it comes to this adoption. I mean, we see a bunch of regulations, a bunch of clarity happening all over the world. I don't see the U.S. staying out of this. Obviously, now the U.S. have chosen to go through the enforcement and going to court, et cetera. But at the end of the day, regulations tend to converge because we live in a global environment. Second, I think that the new narrative that BlackRock is throwing around when they talk to capital allocators, which is basically Bitcoin is the only truly global asset as an asset class. And this is, I think, a fundamental distinction that is very attractive for capital allocators, but also for sovereigns. So, I think, yes, it's going to be a piecemeal type of process for the U.S.,

but things will converge towards just adopting this asset class, etc. The U.S. obviously has taken the path of going to courts and challenging this environment, etc. Yeah, that's a path, but it's a path that will converge towards something. So I think from a practitioner perspective, obviously it will happen. When it will happen, we don't know, but there is a path to it and there is a precedent globally, and there is an environment in which it can converge.

Let me just give a quick update as well. And I'd love to go to Ryan. It's a rare occurrence that we have Ryan on stage. So we will make the most out of it. Ryan, your honor. It's a pleasure to have you after all these months now. Ryan, this must be the happiest day of your life. This must be the happiest day of your life.

Your arch rival just got hit in the face. Let me read out some numbers just quickly updating the markets and then we'd love to get Ryan's thoughts on this. Coinbase up 13.6%, Riot 12%, Marathon Digital 14%. This goes up. We got Bitcoins up 5.1%,

ETH over 4%, BNB over 5%, and XRP over 4%. Ryan, we'd love to get your thoughts. Well, it's, you know, I'll spare everybody the schadenfreude. I think anyone that's followed me for a while knows my feelings on the SEC chair. But, you know, truly, I think the SEC is, or at least it used to be an important institution to protect investors, you know, make the US capital markets fair and efficient, and really the top capital

formation engine in the world. And it's a regulator that's just lost its way. And fish rots from the head. And that's what you've seen with Gary Gensler. From a personal standpoint, that's obviously pretty satisfying. I do own some GBTC shares, full disclosure. You know, I do own some GBTC shares as via full disclosure. I think, as many folks know, I've been highly, highly critical to put it mildly of Gary Gensler. But it's always been rooted in facts. And what I think is just asking for consistency and legitimate treatment. And, you know, the SEC is an agency to just abide by its stated mission and its core principles, which is around investor protection, where they were failing abysmally with a multi-billion dollar discount to the GBTC shares that were floated because there was no redemption

mechanism, thanks to its novel structure and its inability to convert to an ETF. I think the markets are going to be fairer with this ruling. You won't have a delta between derivatives-based ETFs that basically just enrich the financial firms that are market-making around it and kind of clipping even more exorbitant fees than you'd have in a spot ETF. I think it's good for the industry's general institutional adoption and trajectory. And then I think most's good for the industry's general institutional adoption and trajectory. And then I think most importantly, this should really embolden many other entrepreneurs, you know, predominantly in crypto, but I think even more broadly, to take a little bit of a different tact with their financial regulators.

I mean, the issue is, you know, we live in a country where as government, you know, of the people, you know, for the people, not, you know, the people work for the government. And we've just ceded so much control in general, particularly to our financial regulators. And there's this kind of unwritten rule that you don't criticize your financial regulator. You certainly don't sue them. But when they've lost their way and they're just running roughshod over, you know, legal norms and ultimately running, in some cases, diametrically opposed to their state admission, you got to hit them in the mouth. And you know what? You know, get this guy out of there, right? He's corrupt, he's inept, and ultimately he's embarrassing the administration now with some of these really crippling losses. So it's

a good day for everybody. Ryan, I have a question for you. If I put you in front of Gary Gensler right now, what would you say to him? If you were to really speak your mind, no holds barred, no consequences, what would you say to Gary Gensler if you were in really speak your mind no no holds barred no consequences what would you say to gary ginsley if you were in front of him right now well i mean you guys have known i've been

around long enough and and you know i i'd like to think that i've survived because uh i'm i'm a little bit more professional and maybe you know some people might think just from my spicy tweets but i would probably just smile i mean there's nothing else to say. This guy is losing. He knows he's wrong. He knows that he's tried to turn the SEC into a merit regulator. Look at his ESG standards. Look at, you know, all these kind of new rules that he's writing, his immediate pivot to AI to get in the headlines.

I just smile and I wouldn't even need to say anything. I think, you know, the smile should basically say your career is over. You know it. You've been on the wrong side of too many issues. You've embarrassed this administration. You're losing in court. You've lost all legitimacy. People in your agency don't respect you. And the only ally that you have is a fringe senator who, frankly, based on our polling, would lose even in deep blue Massachusetts if the former Republican governor would just run against her. So we got to, you know, enlist him. And then all of a sudden, you know, Elizabeth Warren's influence in terms of all the staffers at the SEC and the

other major financial regulators, that starts to dissipate and we can start having serious conversations. So, I mean, I just I would just smile. But, you know smile, but let me just say, I think at the end of the day, what we need is not a laissez-faire, no rules SEC chair, but we need someone that's actually going to follow the agency's mission. And, you know, you can smile at someone and wink at them and have it be a big middle finger at the same time because the facts and kind of the outcomes are on your side. That's what we got today. What was a bigger ruling if you were to compare the two? If you took this ruling and you took the SEC ruling, which ruling do you think is a bigger win? I assume you're talking about the XRP ruling.

The XRP ruling. when i assume you're talking about the xrp ruling the xrp ruling which yeah if you've got if you've got the xrp ruling and you've got the which one do you think is bigger for crypto it's no contest as this one um so first of all the the xrp ruling was a mixed bag um uh the uh i think it was important that they uh that they ruled um that these were not financial instruments in and of themselves, the XRP tokens. But then you had another regulator that kind of conflicted with that ruling more recently with a subsequent ruling. I'm blanking on the name of the second case, but that's something that's probably going to get brought up to the Supreme Court because there's a direct conflict between two district courts. With XRP, you also had the SEC rule that the institutional sales, so the direct sales that Ripple made of XRP to other counterparties was a security. So

that one was very much a mixed bag. This one, if you read through it, it's basically, you know, the court saying to the SEC, you just made shit up. You know, you made shit up because you don't like this asset and you didn't want to approve it and you were dug in on it. Well, everything that you did was didn't make sense. And clearly this was arbitrary and capricious. I mean, that's a high standard for a court to not defer to a financial regulator. So it's egregious in terms of like their decision making process here. And right, they said that from day one in this case, right? I mean, the SEC was losing from the first hour of this case. Exactly. But you never know what happens behind closed doors. They can

ask tough questions, but if they're satisfied with the answers, or they think it over and kind of weigh all the evidence in one fell swoop, then they can come to a different conclusion, even if their questions are somewhat pointed. Again, the other reason that this is so big is, as Bitcoin goes, so goes the rest of the industry when it comes to integration into the broader financial system. And what this is, is basically a court ruling that essentially says you need to treat Bitcoin fairly relative to other commodities and you need to treat this commodity ETF fairly compared to other commodity ETFs. And that means 40 act funds should be able to buy shares of the Bitcoin trust. That means all of this

institutional capital that's been sitting on the sidelines, either because they just can't hold the underlying asset for whatever reason, or they've been given these like implicit suggestions, quote unquote, that they shouldn't own these shares because the SEC would frown upon that. And, you know, awful nice job that you have there. Be ashamed if something happened to it has been the subtext of this agency and the goons that are currently working under Gensler. And I think that changes that, you know, going to my point about people being emboldened, I think people, you know, now they look at it at this as a split decision, which is, okay, we disagree with our financial regulator, but it's still the SEC. And now it's, well, at least we have the course on

our side. So maybe we can be a little bit more assertive here. Even for the most conservative, old school financial institution or asset manager, you're going to start to see the floodgates open. And that's going to start with Bitcoin. And then ultimately, I think you're going to see other victories for Ethereum. You're going to see other momentum building to pass some legislation that gives some guideposts for how this asset class should be treated. And I think this goes a long way for Bitcoin itself, for institutional adoption, and then also for pushing the pace of what we should expect in D.C. out of the legislators as well. Okay. I'm trying. Do you think that this changes who would be the first ETF?

Do you think that, that grayscale could be BlackRock to get the first approved ETF? Do you think it's still BlackRock in the, in the lead? Do you think somebody else doing that will be approved at once? How do you see this playing out? You know, I, I don't know. I, you know, I think it's anybody's guess. They can mess with the ordering as best they can. It doesn't really change the dynamics for Grayscale, though, whether they're first or later, because all of their assets under management are captive until they convert,

right? So because of the structure, there are, as many people might know, there are not currently redemptions available for grayscale trust assets. And so all these Bitcoin are captive assets that can't necessarily move to another issuer just because they get beaten out of the gates. But what I think is interesting, you know, with respect to all the ETF competition, is really what this does for GBTC shareholders long term. It's going to be great for them twice because, one, the discount is already closing. It's down to 17%, which is the lowest it's been since, I think, February 2021 or sometime early 2021.

And the fees are going to have to go down, too, because right now they're priced at 2% annual fees. Grayscale has already indicated they bring that number down. But basically, any other spot issuer that wants to be competitive is going to have to compete on fees. And you're going to start to see this get whittled down closer and closer into the 50 to 75 basis point range, maybe. So not only are you closing the discount to the underlying asset value here by allowing for redemptions with an ETF, but you're also creating some pretty significant pressure on the fees.

And that's going to ultimately be good for shareholders. What I think people will wake up to tomorrow is if Grayscale can just magically convert tomorrow to an ETF, this is a disaster for DCG. Because Grayscale is their cash cow and if all of a sudden you have both immediate fee pressure in the sense that grayscale is going to have to reduce fees to be competitive from two percent to one percent or 75 basis points whatever it is you're talking about an immediate 50 percent haircut not to mention the redemptions and the potential outflows that you could see once this trades at par and people can actually create and redeem shares. In other words, take assets away from their AUM. So all of a sudden, the crown jewel of DCG that frankly is propping

that entity up because you need the cash flows from Grayscale to pay all this debt and potentially get out from under some of the Genesis related contagion. Now that earnings engine for that entire business is going to take a hit. And the only way to make up for that is to see Bitcoin at $100,000 or $200,000 and make it up on volume. This is bad for Grayscale. I mean, as much as it's a win for them, as you said, I mean, you pointed it out and we've talked about it a lot. It's horrible for them financially. And we also just had the news that today DCG was effectively going to repay Genesis. And the false news that that meant 90% back for creditors. But if you really dig into it, it's more of a beneficial move to help DCG than it is to help creditors.

I think they're in big trouble, frankly. Well, I don't necessarily think that it's horrible. So this is the nuance here. I don't think it's horrible for Grayscale because Grayscale is a business. Their margins are phenomenal and they have so many other products. And this could open the door for them to really be a tremendous player in creating many different types of ETFs and trusts and a whole family of products long term. But in the near term, it creates immediate pressure on their flagship products, which

the near term is what matters when you're talking about debt service, right? So I think for the long term, this is kind of inevitable for Grayscale. And they're playing a volume game and a number of products game and a rising kind of tide lifts all boats type of game. In that respect, Grayscale itself is still well positioned. Now, the issue is, okay, you can't just dividend out those cash flows from Grayscale and use it to service all the other kind of holding company needs that happen to level up and that are a result of some of these really tricky issues with Genesis and some of the other affiliates at DCG. So it's, it's a, it's a really interesting case because, you know, the, the, actually

the incentives at Grayscale and DCG, well, the incentives at Grayscale, you know, or one thing, but I think both the incentives at Grayscale and DCG are actually to slow play the actual conversion to an ETF as much as possible, even though they just won. Right. Right. It's a really, really weird dynamic. But ultimately, I think you're starting to see the public market reaction.

It's great for the GBTC shareholders. Yes. So the question I have is first looking at the SEC's win rate. You know, they win 90% of the contested cases they brought to the administrative law judges. And that's between 2010 and 2015. And they won 70% of federal court trials over that same period. So seeing how they're losing in crypto,

we've got two losses so far. And then we see how the Coinbase one goes and the others as well. Seeing all the losses they're facing, what does that mean for crypto? How bullish, you know, looking at the prices right now and the sentiment in the markets right now how bullish should we be and could we make a statement are we closer to making the statement that the sec's fight against

crypto is close to you know close to dying and their sentiment would be forced to change in the near future i don't think that gary gensler cares if he has a single friend in Washington. He's going to go down with the ship. And so I think unless he gets a phone call from the White House saying, we need you to step aside and we'll make room for you in our next administration, but it won't be in the SEC, he's not going anywhere. Why? anywhere um well because he's he's stubborn and i i think he's um uh you you have to kind of look at his history and um you know i i don't throw around the word corruption loosely but i think

that he's just a corrupt um you know a political actor and um and him losing in court is just going to make him dig in and say okay OK, you know, screw you. Like, well, you know, we'll be acting on their directive anyways. Right. I mean, this is their directive. Right. You made the point. It's until it becomes politically unpopular for the administration that put him here. He's not going to change. But, you know, all coming down saying this is becoming unpopular. I mean, remember, this SEC could turn around and if they accept this ruling. First of all, I don't know what the appeals process looks like, but they could turn around and they, then, well, let me, I would have put that as a higher probability event until you saw the parade of BlackRock and

all the other kind of traditional finance firms starting to throw their hat into the ring. I think now that there's just too much political momentum from kind of the Wall Street crowd to push the spot ETF over the line. But, you know But I think it's going to be kicking and screaming versus something that's done voluntarily or with any expediency. So I don't know what this means in terms of timelines, but I don't think that's going to change a single thing that the SEC does, because in their eyes, they're at least, and think about Gensler's political calculation as he's getting to the

end of his career. He can't take a loss at this point. So his best case scenario is, let me finish out my term, grind these guys down, piss everybody off. And then you know what? The next time there's some crypto crisis or some bankruptcy or some big black eye for the industry when I'm out of office, I can take a victory lap and say, I told you so. And no one believed me. Right. That's kind of his only play at this point, because otherwise he's just kind of toast because he's mismanaged this industry. And I think the agency just tremendously over the course of the last couple of years. But that doesn't take away from the fact that this, you know,

I always like to say crypto is inevitable, right? It's just a matter of timescale. And this is a move in that direction. So it's great. There's another important piece of news. I know I don't know how the panelists are up as well, but there's another important piece of news that we were meant to cover before this news broke.

And that's the SEC's win against Impact Theory and the NFT they launched. Now, Impact Theory is obviously a legit project. We're not talking about one of these NFT scans, a legit company by a legit founder. Yet, their lawyers were pretty lazy. In their agreement when people purchased the NFT, it talks about

it says Impact Theory underscored that this perverted value would be derived from the company's efforts. Okay, that's not in the agreement. So that's in the SEC's lawsuit. So my apologies there. I should have seen the agreement. But they mentioned some quotes from the agreement or from the website of Impact Theory's NFT project.

And lawyers just didn't do their homework. So we'd love to get your thoughts on this. And obviously, the SEC lost when it comes to Grayscale, but you can call this a win with impact hearing and what we could see in the next few months with other NFT projects by just entrepreneurs and also by big companies like Nike, Tiffany, Gucci, Adidas, and all that. I don't have strong thoughts on this one other than it just it continues to point to the fact that we need clear rulemaking and guidance from Congress. continue to argue until, you know, the end of his term, what the howey test means and how it

applies to various crypto assets, whether it's an NFT, an ERC-20, you know, Ethereum, anything, you know, anything in between. So I think, you know, it's, to me, I personally don't read too, too much into that single ruling. But I thought Paul from Coinbase actually had a good take on this, which is, you know, bad facts can make bad law, but that still means that it's bad law. And I think, you know, with this particular case, without going into the nitty gritty, I think it was, you know, a pretty, pretty bad set of facts, but it's just the SEC trying to build momentum against, you know, a weak project with, with a bunch of bad facts and, and then extrapolate that to extend to a bunch of different assets. So, you know, I think minor in the grand scheme of things, but, you know, we'll keep an eye

on the precedent itself and, and make sure that the SEC continues to look at these on a facts and circumstances basis versus trying to apply blanket statements to the entire asset class. And any updates? We covered your thesis in a space over a month ago. And then right after this, two days after that, we saw the XRP ruling. Today, we're talking about Grayscale. There's other developments in the past month. Any updates you'd like to make to that thesis that I highly recommend? Probably everyone's read it here, but if anyone hasn't read it, I highly recommend you check it out.

Any updates to your thesis, Ryan, and kind of a general take on the markets today over the next six months? Well, as you guys know, I wanted to have this conversation the last couple of months, and we keep missing each other for different reasons. I just had another kid being one of the primary reasons. I know we're a little bit delayed here, but yeah, I think the big overarching thesis that I'm kind of updating right now is like, what is going to be the catalyst and where are the signs of life? Because we're kind of approaching the deepest part of apathy right now in this cycle. You know, it seems like the bad news is priced in. Nothing is really kind of moving the needle in terms of volumes or, you know, adoption or interest. But we're starting to see some green shoots, right? Decentralized social, you know, whether or interest, but we're starting to see some green shoots, right?

Decentralized social, you know, whether you like friend tech or not, you know, the combination of friend tech lens, forecaster, you know, Twitter, um, having, you know, some, some issues and, and, and kind of struggling a little bit, um, with public perception or whatnot. It, it opens the door, I think, for decentralized social plays in a way that has never really been possible before. You combine what's happening in L2s and I think a total zero to one breakthrough with the Coinbase wallet to base blockchain experience. And then the progressive web app hack that Frentech came up with. came up with, and I think kind of really woke people up to, it's one of the most elegant UXs that I think we've seen to date. The fees are low. It was fast. You could do it through the Coinbase Wallet app that people trust and find secure.

So there's pockets that I think should be exciting for folks. Ethereum has gotten through some of its major upgrades. There's this huge catalyst for Bitcoin in the ETF ruling today. The stablecoin market caps and proliferation of USDC and USDT. Circle just had another major partnership that they announced with Ricardo Pago in Chile today, a big fintech player in LATAM. So you kind of see all this like grinding out of progress. It's not necessarily reflective in the asset prices, but it's like the kindling for the next part of the cycle.

And I bit my tongue because I don't want to give financial advice. I almost said the next blank run. But the next part of the cycle, we'll say after apathy, is capitalizing on all this kindling that's been built up in the market. And I think across the board, whether it's politically in the courts,

through kind of new applications, new infrastructure, there's a lot to be excited about going into 2024. Ron, off this topic, but just interested to know what you thought of Frentic. Have you used the app? Are you... He's very bullish on it, yeah.

Yeah, he's very bullish. I've seen back to him. Well, let me hedge this a little bit. I mean, I probably have... I think I made like two and a half ETH or something like that so far. But I think I put in like another 10 or so just to play around. And I've been kind of buying and selling, you know, kind of keys, mostly just to see how people are using the rooms right now. So, you know, when I kind of experiment with things like this, it's, it's generally not to I don't like speculating on things where it's a 20% big to like get in, get in and out of a position. Right. So I've kind of treated some of this as just like specular speculation as a user, just to kind of get my imagination going. And I think,

I do think it's, it's something like friendTech is going to be very powerful. And the things that I've been pretty interested in are the different rooms where there's various experiments going on. So on the one hand, I got keys to a number of folks that I don't necessarily hear from that much on Twitter, but they're doing AMAs in their room. Dan Robinson from Paradigm comes to mind. He's not super vocal on Twitter, but he's answering questions and covering a lot of territory in his room. And I just think he's brilliant, and I don't always hear from him in the Twitter echo chamber.

So I bought a key there, and I've held it. Just while you're talking about this, I should just mention to you that you shouldn't buy Mario's keys. I mean, even if they're for free, just don't take them. Just give them back. It's just not worth it. Look, I'm not going to send...

I'm not going to send... My nude is pending. Give it seven more days. Seven more days before my nude will come out instead of your message of one nude and then it disappears. I don't know if you saw that, Ryan. Ryan has one message there.

It says to the moon and it disappears. Mario, to interrupt, we have actually some other pretty significant breaking news that X Twitter has obtained the license required for crypto payments and trading. Yeah, that happened a couple of hours ago. Yeah, that was true.

Yeah, I know. It's being tweeted again and we haven't mentioned it. So we know which coin is going to be prioritized there, right? Yeah, it could be. So we were expecting this because we knew about the application a while ago. But it is pretty important news. I think today is full of big news. We have the Impact Theory settlement.

We've got this Twitter news. I know, Ryan, you're covering it in your show. And then now we have the Grayscale win that kind of dwarfs everything else. So it's been a pretty busy day for crypto. You know, we have all these quiet days where we try to find news or we cover small bits and pieces.

But today is a pretty good day for crypto. And hopefully the sentiment continues to change. For anyone that looks at the price chart, which I don't, Scott and Gareth were talking about the $28,600 mark. So if that sentiment change could get us over the $28,600 mark, I think that's a really, really big milestone. Eleanor was just on stage. I want to get her thoughts on this as well. But yeah, that's a pretty good day overall.

Do you think this is enough though, Ryan? Do you think this is enough to, and I asked some speakers that question earlier, to shift the sentiment in the industry? Because Ryan was talking earlier in his show, and today I watched Ryan's show, not Scott's, and he talked about how money's just flowing out of the market. And he read one tweet, and I'll read it again.

Time-based capitulation in full effect. No new inflows. Daily addresses stagnant. Devs capitulating. NFT is trending to zero. And he talks about only the true believers and stuff, and then spends the time talking about his marathon. I want to ask a question to you, Ryan, and to Ryan,

because I know he's covered this. News like this, this is a pretty big piece of uh a big a pretty big piece of development in the industry is that enough to shift the sentiment to get us out of that rut that we're in you know the way i see it is you know we're in a sea of negative sentiment um and this is like one little move to the upside and eventually all these little moves to the upside actually sway the the direction of the flow but you know right now the unfortunately the flow is very much against us and i think this move is enough you know like i don't think that this gets us above the 31 000 and you can see it in the price price is like 27 500 i mean theoretically the price

should be way higher i think ultimately you know bitcoin is very much a function of we've got to understand that bitcoin is very much a function of, we've got to understand that Bitcoin is very much a function of global liquidity and global liquidity right now is in trouble. So the big stream is a much bigger stream than crypto. It's a liquidity stream. Crypto has its own problems, but we still have this global liquidity problem, I think. Ryan, do you agree? 2015, 2019, 2023, right? Yep. You know, it wasn't necessarily the bottom of the market, but it's definitely the bottom in terms of enthusiasm, apathy. And what would concern me is if the pace of developments and and kind of infrastructure

and kind of new things was slowing down i just i don't think that's the case i think um defy uh still has you know some some pretty significant headwinds even with some of the positive developments that we mentioned um because it it clearly seems like it's going to be in kind of the regulators, both SEC and Treasury, and some of the more AML-focused regulators, which is not where you want to be. So I think DeFi still has some headwinds, but I think kind of throughout the rest of the industry, there's a lot of tailwinds that are building. And if you have positive court rulings and positive, you know, precedents from the regulators that, you know, make it possible for folks to invest and to integrate these protocols, you know, that takes a little bit of time, but that genie doesn't get put back in the bottle. So it's almost like,

you know, the tsunami, you know, right before the tsunami, you'll see the tide go way out or appear to be way out and, you know, the beach is like super elongated. And then all of a sudden, the massive kind of rush of water comes in slowly, but, you know, surely. So I think that tends to be what happens during these consolidation periods. What that means for near-term price action, that's your guys' shtick and expertise. But I think for the long term, today's a pretty good day. How would you define long term? Well, I mean, I have been pretty consistent, I think,

over the course of the next, you know, 10, 20 years, crypto is going to be ubiquitous. And, you know, the back end of the financial markets and most value transfers are going to be blockchains. So like that, that kind of universal kind of triple entry accounting for all types of data transfers

and all types of financial, you know, asset transfers, it's not going away and it's kind of triple entry accounting for all types of data transfers and all types of financial asset transfers. It's not going away and it's going to be a permanent feature of society in the next couple of decades, but it's going to take a long time. I think different parts of the market will see different paces of adoption. I think Bitcoin and Ethereum, sooner rather than later, because Wall Street is likely now getting the green light or close to the green light. For stable coins, probably sooner rather than later, because they're already so large and they're a pretty significant source of demand for US treasuries, or they could be. And then other pockets of the industry

are basically just in their seed stage. So I think you're talking about overlapping hype cycles here a little bit, but the net results is going to be for some of these major assets and big pockets of the industry that are already on the radar of the institutions. I think that's going to be sooner rather than later uh we'd love to get your thoughts yeah go ahead joe i just want to ask ryan a question while i have him up here and ran

ran show kind of touched on it a bit and i think it doesn't get the attention it deserves i've been in a space for a long time and i kind of see a threat that doesn't get enough attention, which is the brain drain. We finally have something that is seems more cutting edge than crypto, which is AI. And I do see a lot of people moving, I just don't have any numbers knowing like how many people are moving, how many devs are going there. And, you know, these are typical innovators, first adopters that, you know, they like what's new and shiny. And I feel like they're going to AI, which is a threat that we haven't faced before. And just your thoughts on that. I actually don't see them in tension, really.

I think actually developing models and some of like the hardcore AI work that's getting done, a lot of that's going to be dominated by big tech. But pretty much any startup, any tech startup in any vertical is going to apply AI in some way to their business. We have a couple of AI tools at Masari that are coming out. Our engineering team is super excited about it, but they're working on applications that are specifically going to help our users for this end

market. And I think that that's going to be true for all sorts of startups, especially kind of data startups. So maybe I have a little bit of a selection bias here, but that's kind of one thing I'd say. The other is, I truly believe that crypto and AI are kind of yin and yang technologies. You know, crypto is going to be important for proving provenance in a, you know, AI dominated internet. And when you're talking about like digital identity or provenance of an asset or IP or whatever it is, I think securing those scarce digital assets in an age of infinite creation of AI is going to be important. So certainly, to the extent that there's a brain drain to AI, I think it's to AI and away from all other tech, or maybe I think

about it more like a rebalancing. I'm not convinced that it's an exodus from crypto. And to the extent that talent is flowing out, it's probably mutual because a lot of crypto companies are financially underperforming right now. And there's just been a lot of layoffs this year. So I think it's not layoffs or a flight to something shiny so much as we're in a weak part of the market cycle. So naturally the head counts are going to be reduced in crypto. Figaro, let's get your thoughts and then maybe get lawyer thoughts on today's

ruling as well. It's a good time to wrap it up. Just final quick thoughts on how, you know, anything else in the ruling that we saw today that we haven't, that is worth mentioning that we haven't, that we missed. Hey, guys, I got to run. Thank you very much for including me again. Hopefully, we'll be able to do it again soon. Thanks, Ron.

Really appreciate it. We got to go through that thread. Maybe when you do an update to it in a few weeks or months, we could finally cover it. Sounds good. Thanks. Thanks, man. I think you have to get your thoughts and lawyer thoughts, man, and then we'll wrap up the good. Thanks. Thanks, man. I think you'll have to get your thoughts in, lawyer thoughts, man,

and then we'll wrap up the show, guys. Sure, sure. The interesting thing that I'm seeing is we're seeing a clear distinction between the quality of lawyers on these cases, specifically the library case, but from the last rulings, which are great for crypto in general,

just to have guidances, they're focusing on the SEC's failures as attorneys. They're focusing on a lack of evidence or a lack of declarations as to fact patterns that are necessary to win their cases. And we saw that in XRP with the secondary problematic sales. They said that the SEC didn't prove enough evidence that the people buying on exchanges

were relying on the representations by... Or folks in the company. Exactly. And here you're saying that they're saying that the SEC just didn't file enough information to explain or provide enough information to explain why their claims that somehow the Bitcoin versus the futures ETF is any different than the existing two that were approved.

So they're not making law. They're simply saying that the SEC isn't Java, which is an interesting thread. Scott was so happy. Scott did mention that earlier. He was so happy. Anyone that doesn't like the SEC, including Kyle and Scott, this is a great day for them. Lawyer, anything else to add to today's ruling before we wrap up the show?

And then tomorrow's show, by the way, two things, guys, before we get lawyer thoughts. Two things. Tomorrow's show will be labeled, most likely. Can we trust the current pump? That's one. Number two, Scott, tell us quickly about DOP, who's

we just pinned their tweet above data ownership protocol. We've had a whole space on this topic. Really, really cool project. And they're sponsoring today's show. They're partnering with us. So if you want to check out their pinned tweet, anyone listening to us, check it out. If you do want to join the show as a sponsor, make sure

you DM any of us us co-hosts or the emails that that we will pin above if anyone could pin the emails above hit us up you want to come on the show we do have the shark tank show that's going live in a few weeks that's next month so it's in september and so in a few weeks we'll be going live that's our own shark tank show that's done online on youtube i, I think, and on Spaces, and Twitter video. So if you want to join there and pitch,

make sure you do in the big Shark Tank show, the Killer Whales show that me and Rand were on. We'll be launching soon. We were just judges on there. We'll be going live in January, not November, December.

They've delayed it till January, but we saw the first episode snippets and it's a fucking awesome show I'm very impressed by what they've done it's probably the best production that's ever been done in crypto it cost them a lot of money

but the show was incredible similar to Shark Tank the production is almost identical to Shark Tank I didn't realize I didn't realize that they that they postponed it Mario

till January yeah well I don't blame them the market is is not really you know there's too much apathy right now for a new show so I don't mind them delaying it but really there's too much apathy right now for a new show so I don't mind

them delaying it but I want it to come out ASAP because it's such a well produced show and hopefully they'll show us other episodes before they come out

because the one they showed us was pretty cool they showed me but I don't like how they edit you have to see how they edit

in this case they edited me attacking you hopefully they'll keep it that way because in the next show hopefully in the next show, they won't put rants crushing me as well.

So, it's hitting back. I want to hit them up and say, guys, please make sure the rant attacking me is not edited into the show. Please, please, please. Lastly, we have a partnership with a big exchange. So, if you do have a project or you're a VC with a portfolio of companies, make sure you hit us up to work with us to list on that exchange, pretty big exchange.

We've got a really, really good deal with them. So if you do have a project and want to list on that top-tier exchange, we'll be announcing their name soon. Hit us up. This goes for any project that wants to list. So that's the last thing on my end. Scott, do you want to tell us quickly about Doc, maybe in 30, 10, 20 seconds,

and then we'll get Lawyer's final take on today's news? Sure. I just want to make sure you can actually hear me. I had to get my car. Yeah, we can hear you. We're getting closed down for a hurricane here, actually. So they just closed my kid's school. So I don't know if I'll be here tomorrow. But yeah, speaking of DOP, it's actually extremely interesting. I mean, I think everybody understands the lack of privacy with crypto transactions. If I send something to you, Mario, it shows my wallet. You can click on my wallet. You can look into everything I've ever done, who I've ever paid, how much money I have, which is obviously wildly problematic. It's one of the up and downsides, obviously, of having a transparent public ledger. But at the most simplest terms, this allows you to push a button

and to take that and to add privacy to that. So they get their transaction, but they can't see the specific wallet and into it and where it came from. So it gives you an element of privacy. This works with NFTs, transactions, everything. So really the implications for private data, very, very powerful.

I think it's just really, really important. There's a few technologies working on doing this. Obviously, privacy coins. This is one more great way to be able to maintain your privacy on the blockchain. Cool, man. Check out DOP. It's pinned above at the top. Lawyer, anything else on today's ruling in both rulings, the NFT one against Impact TV and the Grayscale win.

I would love to get your thoughts. And I want to get Fiji's thoughts on the ruling against, or not the ruling, the settlement between Impact TV and the SEC as well. That's really important. That was going to be the main topic of today. Again, anyone in the NFT community, this is a very important settlement to look into. So I'd love to get Lawyered's thoughts and Fiji's thoughts,

because both of you have a silly cartoon or an NFT as a profile pic. Fiji, do you want to go first? I'm not sure if Lawyered can unmute. Fiji, do you want to go first on the SEC ruling and settlement? Yeah, the ruling, the impact of the NFT case is really interesting because unlike the statements that's made about the information, the rulings in the NFT case are pretty like patent, meaning they you promise that that money's going to go up and you launched an empty project uh which was the standard for quite a while in the chopping block um the question and they settled right so are they will it win if action goes to the merits i don't know i'm not sure we'll ever see that because i don't know how many projects are capitalized like

ripple or other token projects that have the money to fight so we'll probably see a bunch of these and they'll probably be strategic because they're guaranteed settlements by the sec so prepared to see a bunch of really really big bull market projects get slapped for big numbers to make a point yeah and what about nft projects launched by people outside of the u.s are they also susceptible i think the answer is yes but i would love to get your what's going to be super interesting is the overlap with the um the logic in the richard hart case which is basically the alter ego case so if they can pierce the corporate veil of foreign created entities or otherwise say that they have a personal jurisdiction over people because they're in or have been in the u.s or used a chain or otherwise it has a basis in the

united states again they're settling these right so they're not going to the merits and most nft projects don't have the money to back to them so they can make any wacky argument they want and they can get default judgment settlements probably from a bunch of people. So it's going to be an interesting jurisprudence summer or winter. Yeah, in fact, the impact theory is not admitting any guilt here, by the way. To Vigil's point,

the SEC is getting $6 million. They get to say they won. If you look at Tom's tweet, he basically says, we're happy we settled with the SEC and can move forward. So everybody gets to skin it as a win so this is scott scott scott scott scott i don't care how they spin it the sec identical yes they're going to go after the low-hanging fruit the projects that are easiest to get money out of and i mean it's the's the same thing. When we launched our ICO in 2017, our lawyers told us exactly what not to say.

And Impact Theory said all of those things. So of course they're going to get hit. But there's still like the Bordet Biot Club case that still needs to be settled. There's a couple of others that are out there saying that hopefully we'll actually set precedent and not just be more- I don't think they'll set precedent.

I don't think they'll set precedent. And I don't think they'll set precedent. I don't think they'll set precedent. And I don't think they'll go heavy. They won't crumble the industry. They have a little bit of care for the average consumer. I think they're just going to make their points to stop it from happening moving forward, which I think is a good thing for the space, to be honest with you. And one thing

to mention is, to Scott, the SEC could say they want, Impact TV can in no way say they want. They have to pay a $6 million fine and refund every single NFT purchaser. I agree. I'm just saying that because the Impact Theory didn't officially have to say that they were wrong. It was like Kim Kardashian. I told you, it's just the same thing. She paid a fine. She didn't make a statement. She moved on with her life. It would be very different if this was a court ruling against impact theory that said that NFTs are the...

True, true. Exactly. Exactly. So it's not like we get legal precedence here that every NFT in history was. And that's why all these guests are correct, which is that the SEC is going to take the easy wins on people who can't afford to fight and are willing to just pay and then call them wins and move on because in the court of public opinion that's what they'll be viewed as and they're gonna look on that point i think it's sorry could you not let you go ahead so good yeah um also make themselves look good they're setting up the structure of the fund to repay injured victims kind of like a meto meto celioma fund but that's probably going to do in terms of disgorgement and by the way we care about you we're setting up a fund to pay back the people

we didn't protect cool all right well guys on that point i think we've been pretty pretty uh um you know last 48 hours been full of news. We saw the BitBoy story yesterday and now we have the Impact Theory story and lastly the Grayscale story. So tomorrow, unless there's more news, we'll probably focus on the Grayscale story a bit further and focus on the price action

will be a relatively short show. Get a few analysts in place, macro and technical to discuss where we are in crypto today and whether this pump could get us above the all-important $28,600 mark and whether we could even touch the $30,000, $30,000, $1,000 mark or we'll be short-lived due to sentiment. So we'll cover that tomorrow. Appreciate you all and we'll see you.

Bye.