The Wolf Of All Streets - How WallStreetBets Blew Up Wall Street | Jaime Rogozinski, Founder Of WSB

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

About 10 years ago, a subreddit formed around a shared interest in volatile stocks and high-risk strategies. Claiming the name WallStreetBets, the community attracted millions of ambitious investors and traders, ready to stick it to Wall Street and beat them at their own game. This culminated in the now infamous GameStop gamma squeeze. Jaime Rogozinski, the founder of WSB, discusses the intimate details of the GameStop saga and his meteoric ascent to Hollywood in the aftermath. Follow Jaime Rogozinski: https://twitter.com/wallstreetbets This episode explores:   WallStreetBets internationally Going long on GameStop Meme stock traders Robinhood warriors Short squeezing Wall Street The Roaring Kitty Retail breaking the system Finding Wall Street’s cheat code The Coinbase listing Arbitrage trading Bringing the gamma squeeze to Hollywood --- Nexo Try Nexo’s full-suite, instant crypto banking service, featuring: savings accounts with up to 12% interest on crypto, stablecoins & fiat; flexible crypto-backed credit lines at just 5.9% APR; an exchange with 75+ crypto and fiat pairs and best-price guarantee.  All this and more wrapped up in a single Nexo Wallet. Start banking at https://thewolfofallstreets.link/nexo or download the app on Google Play or the App Store. --- Bitcasino Now until June 27th Wolf of All Streets listeners will have the chance to WIN 1 of 3 Teslas!  A 0.05 mBTC wager gets you in on the action and enters you to win a Tesla Model 3 Performance Vehicle!  Start playing today for your chance to WIN.  Be sure to use my personal URL for each upcoming tournament to be entered https://thewolfofallstreets.link/bitcasino  Vroom vroom! --- Cosmos Visit https://thewolfofallstreets.link/cosmos to learn about the Cosmos Hub and how the $ATOM can connect every blockchain. Cosmos is the port city connecting chains like Bitcoin and Ethereum to ensure your liquidity on any chain can be used anywhere.  Find new staking opportunities, applications, or build your own parachain at https://thewolfofallstreets.link/cosmos --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co ーーー Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members

Today's episode is brought to you by Nexo, BitCasino, and Cosmos. You'll hear more about them later in the show. What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. Almost 10 years ago, a subreddit formed around a shared interest in volatile stocks and high risk strategies. Over time, the group quickly grew, eventually culminating in the GameStop saga that unfolded at the beginning of this year. This epic short or gamma squeeze

rattled the entire stock market, forcing everyone that thought they understood financial markets to reconsider what they'd come to know. Today's guest is the founder of the WallStreetBets subreddit, and I plan to discuss the legacy of this saga, how they managed to move the market, what the 10 million member group is doing today, and what Jamie has his eyes on for the future. Jamie Rogozinski, it's a pleasure to have you on the show, man. Hi, thanks a lot for having me, Scott. It's a pleasure. Absolutely, my pleasure. And once again, before we get into it, you are listening to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, where twice a week I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading, art, music, sports, and even politics. This podcast is powered by BlockWorks Group.

You can check out everything they have going on at blockworks.co, and you can check out everything I have going on at thewolfofallstreets.io. So, Jamie, man, I think at this point, there are nomadic tribes in the farthest reaches of the planet that are familiar with Wall Street bets. Did you ever imagine that it would become a household name? No, no, I didn't. You know, like I watch it grow organically over household name? No, no, I did it. You know, like I watch it grow organically over the years, right? For the past 10 years, it's been

growing very healthy, like doubling every year in size. And I think that prior to the GameStop saga, a lot of people in the world of finance knew about Wall Street bets. It had already been on on the news, like the financial news, like CNBC and Bloomberg and things of that nature. But this GameStop saga absolutely exploded it and did turn it into a household name. Yeah. So I want to talk, I mean, might as well dive into it, right? Let's talk about GameStop. Obviously, WallStreetBets built you guys, used your collective power to short squeeze Wall Street, or at least that's the narrative. How did that come together? What made you identify GameStop as a great target for that move? And then what happened? Well, first off, I didn't

identify GameStop. Pretty much anything that has ever happened on a high profile basis, or sometimes not even high profile, but interesting has been because of the people, right? That's kind of the power of social media, the power of community is that uh you collect you know you collect the greatest minds and uh and you've salt in a little bit of luck and a lot of fun and that's how you end up with what we have but you know gamestop uh it was selected by a now famous keith gill right goes also by roaring roaring kitty and then i don't know if you're allowed to curse or not on your podcast yes have at it so deep fucking value is his name on reddit and uh the guy's just a hardcore uh fanatic of gamestop he'd put in a a bullish bet in 2019 or he'd been he'd been long about it for over a year and maybe it was 2020 i don't know know. And he threw 50 grand in there and slowly GameStop started growing.

And sure enough, it just caught fire and exploded the way it did. It turned into like $50 million or something like that. But GameStop specifically, a lot of people would say, well, why don't you do it with this stock or that stock? You know, GameStop had like kind of the perfect storm in order to pull that off. You need to have definitely an element of

luck, definitely an element of visibility. But in this particular case, it was also extremely shorted, right? And this was reported in the news. There was a lot of large hedge funds that were taking a short position, meaning they're hoping that the price goes down. And so that's one of the elements. The other elements, a little more technical, but still pretty fascinating when you dig into it, deals with how the stock option profile was with the company, as well as the volume and things like that. But once it starts going up, basically it forces all participants in the market, all of them to start buying the stocks, whether they're short or long or selling these calls or selling these puts or members of Wall Street bets.

And then the media decided to pour a little gas on that fire and pretty much exploded. So it's a lot of fun. Yeah, I mean, everybody, I think, knows the story and it's incredible. And I think it speaks to a larger concept, which I'm curious your thoughts on, obviously, is that with quantitative easing and money pouring into the market and stocks only go up and all the memes that we've obviously seen. And then you have a stock like GameStop that was probably being shorted for a reason, right? I mean, it's a brick and mortar business selling video games. I mean, it's one of it's blockbuster, right?

I mean, GameStop would have otherwise probably been going out of business. So I guess what is the fundamental value of a stock at this point if it can be so easily moved based on market conditions and actually the trading and those underlying factors rather than the actual fundamentals of the business? Well, I struggle to agree that it's easy to move the stock, right? But I would definitely agree with the fact that those fundamentals are not always in sync. And we've seen that for quite some time. They're not as out of sync as people like to assume. They'll look at some of these metrics of the economy and things of that nature and just jump to conclusions that they're completely disconnected. But they're not quite because when people say the stocks go up, they tend to look at the indices like the S&P 500, Dow Jones, Nasdaq.

And the way those indices are, and that's just a number, it computes a number and it gives it to you. And if that number goes up, they're like, cool, the stocks are up, right? And the way that those, that number is computed, you know, it takes a bunch of stocks and it weighs them differently. And it just turns out that the fundamentals of the stocks that most heavily affect that final number are actually doing pretty well, right? There's a lot of tech stocks that benefited from the pandemic and stuff. But look, you know, on the other hand, you have had a huge slow divergence from not necessarily the reflection of the fundamentals, but the purpose of the stock market.

You've had, you know, the stock started because if you're a business and you want to raise capital, you go public and you raise capital, you reinvest it, R&D, whatever, and you grow it. Right. And then they'll go public, not to raise more money, but to pay back the investors, right? So just that fundamental action started to disconnect. And then you start having all sorts of synthetic tools, like derivatives, the ETFs, and things that just become very abstract and real separated from this whole, let me raise money for R&D purposes. Then let's go ahead and throw some money from the Fed that's printing. Absolutely. That's definitely going to have an effect on things. This last year, we had an explosion of these SPACs, right? These are

special purpose acquisition companies, if I'm not mistaken. They're basically just shell companies with the intention of someday doing something, right? But they don't have anything. They don't have oftentimes offices or employees. They just have kind of an idea and a good marketing team. So you start seeing all these things and like, all right, cool. So what's the purpose of the stock again? Let's reevaluate. And it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? It's just changing its original purpose. And we see a lot of that and we see a lot of crazy fluctuations and we see a lot of unintended consequences. We see, we see events like,

I don't know if you guys are familiar with what happened with Archie goes capital, but it's just this hedge fund. So that's a yes. We've talked about it at length, but yeah, certainly. Go ahead. It causes all sorts of problems in the stock market, right? Like why should these companies that lost 50% of the value have anything to do with anything? And it's just because of all these interconnected complexities that exist. Right.

I mean, the companies that he was invested in should not have seen a 50% move because he was borderline illegal trading activity. It really is such an amazing story though. You're talking about a guy who basically had been kicked out of the hedge fund world for 10 years, found a loophole to trade through family offices, putting his leverage on the bank's books without doing it himself. But the very fact that these things exist

kind of speaks to the fact that there is this disconnection from the reality of the fundamental value of these companies and what we're seeing in the market. Well, you know, what's cool about that story is, you know, this guy found a cheat code, right? He found a loophole, a cheat code, and that's something that's always been around. That's what the markets are about, trying to find like an edge and trying to find an inefficiency or weakness. That's kind of how it works. And the cool thing about what the community of Wall Street bets and in general, the retail trading community, which has grown so much this year, they do the same thing and now they can do the same thing, right? They'll find their cheat codes too, and they can effectively muscle their way in. So that's what's really neat. Yeah. But so why is everybody so mad when retail

finally uses the same cheat code that hedge funds have been using the entire time? Exactly, yeah. But why do you think that's so appalling to everybody? Is it because Wall Street feels people are infringing on their territory or all of a sudden they lose the control when they realize there's somebody else who can do it? I mean, what's behind that? I'm not convinced that everybody's appalled.

I'm convinced that the people that lost money are appalled. I think, I think the reason why I got a lot of attention is because a lot of people were not appalled. A lot of people were applauding, right? But not Wall Street themselves. Not Wall Street. No, it's, it's finally like, you know, the little guy, the 99% finally can have a voice. They don't have to pitch tents. They can actually cost money to the big guys that have been there forever and they can have a voice. They don't have to pitch tents. They can actually cost money to the big guys that have been there forever and they can make money themselves. They can be empowered. They can share things and they can do it, you know, in a, in a democratic fashion, which is in the spirit of, of what we do here.

So I think more on, on, on average, I think more people celebrate what happened with GameStop than when I meant to apologize was specifically speaking of wall street. I think your average person absolutely loved it. Yeah, there you go. So Wall Street's appalled because this has been kind of like an invite only club, right? It's been just a handful of people's it's hard to get in the culture of it, even if you're, you know, I'm talking about Wall Street as these firms, right? These aren't individuals. But even if you want to work at one of these hedge funds, you still have to go through, you know, it's still hard to even be an employee at one

of these firms because of the competitive nature and whatever. And it's been exclusive. It's like, no, no, no, this is for us. You're not allowed here. Thank you very much. You know, much like this other guy from Archie goes, I got kicked out. It's like, all right, well, I'll just do this on my own. And they don't like the fact that there's a new player at the table. You can imagine playing poker. And if you've ever played poker with a guy that either is reckless or has no idea what he's doing, it screws up the game, right? It screws up all your odds because you have to assume that all the players use the same logic as you. And if they don't, that's going to cost you money. And that's uncomfortable for them.

Yeah, I agree. It's interesting. You know, a lot of my friends are hedge fund guys, I went to University of Pennsylvania in the late 90s. So that was sort of like the path that most people took. And you guys did exactly that to every single one of them that I've spoken to. And I'm not talking about like your hedge fund in general or Wall Street as this amorphous beast or whatever. I'm talking about people who are fundamental analysts and make their money analyzing stocks could no longer do their job as a result of what you guys did. And they told me this. They said, listen, like now I just need to go on Wall Street bets and figure out what they might squeeze next because the earnings call with the CEO is useless. It means nothing.

That's really funny. Yeah. I mean, yes and no, right? Like it definitely makes their job more difficult. They have to have a new skill set such as going on Wall Street Bets. I still believe that these guys can coexist. You know, if you zoom out a little bit on the chart, you have Warren Buffett's going to be fine regardless of Wall Street Bets, right? So there bets. And that's what's cool about it. There's enough room for everyone. You can have

the traditional or fundamental investors. You can have the quants that do high frequency. You can have the technical traders that use their stock patterns or chart patterns or whatever. And now you can have these meme stock traders that just go wee to the moon and they have so much fun and they actually do make money. And they need to be aware of the other participants. So they need to consider the new risks associated with the new participants. But I think once the dust settles, everyone's going to be fine. Yeah. So what's the risk to the retail guy who goes, woo, and says, hey, I've got diamond hands and I'm never going to sell this. And then eventually the stock that's being shorted for a reason does make its way down to the floor. The risk is that you lose all your money. But here's what's kind of interesting. Whenever I have a discussion about risk, the grand majority of people that I speak

to have this traditional mindset, this boomer mentality where losing all your money is the worst thing that could happen, right? And these meme stock traders, they go into this assuming that one of the scenarios that is possible is that they lose 100% of their money. I'm not talking about 5% or 10%. I'm talking about you lost your entire money and they'll say, I will hold this to the grave and I will, I'm willing to lose it all just for my principles. And that's kind of a new way of thinking. Obviously what they're doing in order to pull that off is oftentimes using leverage. So losing a hundred percent of your money can be a hundred bucks or 500 or $5,000. Right. And if they lose that, it really blows, but then they wait a couple of weeks, get more money from their paycheck, and they try again.

Because if they hit one of those things, they can make a ton of money. And so this mentality of risk has been kind of shifted so that it fits this particular demographic. And they're so open about saying, so what if I lose all my money? I'll reload and try again. Right. So listen, I mean, people are responsible for their own financial decisions. And if they actually approach it that way, then good for them. Right. But in markets in general, and I'm not saying specific to your situation, but we see a lot of people who don't understand the risk and sort of FOMO in just because they heard about the trend or just

because they heard about Doge going to the moon or whatever it is. And they don't understand that it could actually go to zero, right? So the people are responsible for their own financial decisions, as I said, but there is a lack of education, I think, around financial markets where 99% of the people do not have that inherent passion, or they're not doing it to stick it to the man. As you said, they're buying it because they think it's going to go up and don't realize it can also go down. Absolutely. And oftentimes I get the question if I feel bad about that situation. And obviously I do. But what I feel even worse about, if you have somebody that takes a massive loss, millions of dollars, what I feel even worse about, like, if you have somebody that takes some massive

loss, loss, millions of dollars, and I feel bad for that individual, but collectively, I don't feel as bad. If this individual had made a ton of money, and it's because of what you just said, if one guy goes out there and makes, you know, hits the lottery, the jackpot makes so much money, and it happens more frequently than you think, where you take a thousand dollars, turn it into a hundred thousand. Then, then these people that don't fully understand that you say, look, I don't feel like learning about it. I'm just going to copy this guy, or I'm just going to try and replicate this, hoping that they're going to be able to, to retire next year, next week or whatever. And then that causes a lot more people to have this learning, this costly

learning experience because there is winning and losing and it is a zero sum game. When somebody loses money on a public way, then it's a good reminder to people, especially if they're just coming in and it's like, wow, okay, this guy just lost a ton of money. Perhaps I'll just play with the money that I'm willing to lose. So basically, the argument is that we finally made those aggressive losses and risks so visible that maybe it actually helps future market participants because they've seen how many people got rinsed in this situation. Absolutely. Look, everybody loses money in the stocks or just in equity, investing in general. It's just part of the game. And obviously the worst thing that could happen

for someone is to have beginner's luck because then it gets to their head that they're talented or whatever. All the time. God tier trader. No, it's awful. It's happened to me. It's happened to a ton of people.

But it's part of the tuition learning curve and you get over that and then you either decide it's not for you or you kind of get into a little bit more, you get a deeper understanding of it and then you move forward with it. But having a community which is so transparent and visible and open and unapologetic about how and why and what they're doing, that it does speed up that learning process, even by curiously, just by watching experiences, because it's entertaining. It's a lot more entertaining than reading a Wikipedia article. I never, actually, I never thought of it that way.

And it's absolutely true because you're exposing the risk and exposing the losses, which I think is great. I always used to joke that like, you know, there's the statement, you can't trust a skinny chef, right? The chef should be fat. It's like, you can't trust a trader or a poker player

who hasn't gone bust at least two or three times before. Yep. Yep. Yep. It's part of the, yeah, it's, it's, it's part of the, uh, the learning curve and it's a rite of passage, I guess. Yeah. I love what you said about the worst thing that can happen being people, uh, win immediately. I talk about it all the time. It's random reinforcement. The market always reinforces your bad behavior, right? So it makes you think you're a God-tier trader. You start leveraging up. You do all these things. Eventually, you get punished. And my audience is largely crypto and Bitcoin-based. And so many of them experienced that in 2017, right? So all the things we're seeing in the stock market now is old news to us. Well, it's the same stuff, right? Like crypto,

I mean, we're talking about numbers that fluctuate on a screen and you're just trying to figure out whether it's going to go up or down. There's mechanical differences and it's not 100% the same thing, but at the end of the day, the people are going into it because they want to make money and those fluctuating numbers go up and down. And sometimes it's because of what you predicted. And sometimes it's because of luck. And sometimes it's because of just a completely random sequence of events. So yeah, no, it's, it's, it's universal. Yeah, it is. Humans are pretty predictable in that manner. I think I want to talk about your perspective on Robin Hood's role in the entire thing. I think that there's been a lot of cross messaging as to what happened after

GameStop, obviously. I think it was pretty alarming for the first time in history to see the buy button turned off and the sell button left on. I thought that was really interesting, but I'm curious from your perspective being in the, in the trenches while this was happening to some degree what happened with Robin Hood I mean I mean talking about trenches I was in the middle of doing a live nationwide interview in the U.S. I forget which media might have been CNN primetime

and and the anchor said hold on hold on We're just getting breaking news. Robinhood has stopped allowing people to buy game stuff. Why is that? You just told me what's happening. I have no idea. So I, so I speculated at that point that I kind of guessed it right. I'm like, it can't be, it can't be their decision, their conscious decision. And it's not going to be some crazy conspiracy. You know, the, the, it is, it is a nuanced topic. It's a lot more. On the outside, it's like, all right, well, the way that it's been described a lot, it's you have Robinhood, the broker that allows people to do these trades. And the biggest broker that the majority of people are using to make these trades is facilitating this GameStop going up. And then these retail traders, these meme traders are making tons of money. On the other side, you have large Wall Street institutions that are

losing money because they have that short position. And then magically, Robinhood appears to align themselves with these bad guys. And they cost a lot of money to the retail traders. They stopped putting into this madness and therefore they're bad. There's no beating the man. But the reality is it wasn't Robinhood that stopped. It was all or virtually all brokers. Robinhood got the bad rap for it because they happened to be the biggest one involved with this. But every major broker you can think of had that same problem. And it wasn't a conscious decision of saying, I no longer feel like allowing this madness. It was a consequence of just the mechanics behind how stocks actually get traded. You have to go from the broker to the, in some cases, payment

for order flow and then to these exchanges and then to these clearing houses. And then you have to wait settlement times and you have margin required. And this is archaic system. It's like when I go deposit a check in the bank, I got to wait several days for that to happen. And you can pretty much chalk it up to that same technology. The same thing that made me wait three days for my check to clear is the reason why Robin Hood had to stop because Robinhood had to put up billions of

dollars. And so did the other funds in order to continue a lot of trading. And I don't know if you've ever tried to raising billions of dollars overnight, but it's tricky. And they did though, right? So they actually did it. They did it. And so, you know, they did their best. And so I feel bad that that whole situation was misunderstood. But I also see that as a great opportunity because guess what? Like with this event, as well as previous events, these systemic problems are being exposed and fixed, hopefully.

There was as a consequence, congressional hearings. And then, you know, we saw that circus takes place, but hopefully we'll have some regulatory changes that will make improve, not fix it, but make improvements. Maybe it'll make the settlement time shorter. Less than 48 hours, right. Yeah, whatever it could be. And that's great because now guess what?

Thanks to these retail traders, they broke the system and now it's going to get stronger. Right, but don't you have a fear that that regulation will be dumb regulation, it'll be heavy handed, and it will inevitably hurt retail and help the institutions? I don't have well, the will the regulation be bureaucratic, potentially? Absolutely, because it's government. And so it's not necessarily going to be the greatest solution. It's but that's just the way the nature of the beast. And there's some virtues to that process, the slow and steady and whatever. But I don't feel that that's going to do it because for one, I don't think they would do it on purpose where they say, okay, okay, now that we're fixing up the settlement time period, let's go ahead and stop Wall Street bets from manipulating the stocks again in the future. I don't think they have the motivation

to do that because they'd be interfering with the free market process and they're pretty big advocates of that. So they'd have to go ahead and, I don't know, they'd have to put an end to free trading. They'd have to start deciding what the prices are on their own and that's not what they're there for. Number two, if they said, okay, okay, let's go ahead and try and stabilize it because the volatility was so crazy that that's not healthy for the market. And I agree. And they make something too aggressive. The financial system is so complex and so interconnected, there can be unintended consequences and they can roll up innocent actors or traditional investors that had nothing to do with it. And now all of a sudden they're being impacted

in a negative way. There's no way to just carve out regulation for Wall Street bets. And so I'm not concerned that that's gonna be a problem. And as much as the SEC and FINRA, they get a lot of flack. I truly believe that what they're trying to do and their actions whenever they take them

is to protect the consumers. And I agree with that. I think we agree on that. So I'm curious, though, you know, going back to Robinhood, it was all very spur of the moment decisions regardless. Obviously, everybody knows now that there was no way they could keep the buy button. But we've seen breakers in the market before. And it seems like maybe they could have also removed the sell button until they figured out what was going to happen. But I guess that could be a conversation. Yeah. I mean, it's an impossible situation. I don't even like to imagine what it would be like to be in that room. But speaking of Robinhood, so it also, I think, exposed another underlying issue, right? Which is the thousand page terms of service that everybody accepts and never thinks about on everything that we do in life that said, hey, another underlying issue, right? Which is the thousand page terms of service that everybody

accepts and never thinks about on everything that we do in life that said, hey, you're not actually buying stock here, right? There's people who bought a share of GameStop or something on Robinhood or 100 shares or whatever it was, thought that they own the stock and got liquidated as if they had taken a leverage position with a margin account. That's problematic. That is extremely problematic. And that is an issue of communication and also designing your products to make sure that you understand as a provider, as a broker, that you need to really know what your objectives are in this market. And you need to do a good job with communicating it because that's not fair. And there's been mishaps with

poor communication or poor displaying of information previously, right? There's this famous case where the guy was trading these spreads on option house and he got assigned one half of the leg or something like that. And you know, when, when the computer shows you your balance has showed negative. The kid who killed themselves. And it's, and ended really poorly, you know, it ended bad. And the guy hadn't lost money. It was just, it was just, you know, it was an interface.

At that moment, that was his balance, but it was, did not reflect his actual balance. Yeah. It didn't reflect. Yeah. It didn't reflect his, his what do you call it? His the account size, right. Just, just the actual balance. Yeah. It didn't reflect, yeah, it didn't reflect his, what do you call it? The account size, right? Just the cash balance. Right. So that's brutal. But so, I mean, I think that just kind of speaks to the fact that, and you say it's sort of maybe accidental or they didn't communicate it well, but maybe to take the devil's advocate, that seems purposeful. And I'm not saying in the case of Robinhood necessarily, but a lot of companies and Robinhood certainly falls under this, but they advertise the no fees. They advertise free trading. They advertise fractional stocks or whatever these things, all these things. But the minute that something's free,

as a consumer, you should be a skeptic because obviously you're no longer the customer, you're the product. Look, I agree 100% with you when it comes to not having the underlying asset when the interface is making you believe otherwise. And you have to assume people won't read those terms, even if they click, I agree. So that's, I don't believe that's productive. I think that's bad for a bazillion different reasons, but there's so many reasons that it'll go into a tangent. On the other hand, when it comes to this whole, you're the product because the payment forwarder flow concept where you're getting front runner or whatnot,

you're not getting the ideal prices on your trades. I used to think that was bad, right? When I started learning about trading and really into it, like I was, I didn't like Robinhood to be honest with you because they don't even show bar charts and their their execution was awful and if if you're a technical treater like like I am those little pennies really matter and they matter a lot and and so I said no no this Robinhood is not going to work because with my strategy you're just going to get slammed by slippage or whatever being front run. But then all of a sudden I realized that just like Warren Buffett doesn't need to be co-located

like high frequency traders, meme stock traders don't need to be, as far as I'm concerned, getting the greatest execution for their particular strategy. Rory and Keith Gill turned 50 grand into $50 million. And I doubt he really cares if he got the best sense. It could have been 48 grand turned into $50 million instead if he had gotten a slightly better price without slippage. Right. So as far as you're concerned, it's like, all right, cool. So thanks to this crazy, you know, the system that, this, this system that they've set up, uh, I'm able to trade for free. So I'm going to develop

a whole different strategy that capitalizes on this. I'm the product, uh, idea, right. I'm going to find a cheat code to the fact that I'm being the product. Maybe they don't think about all this consciously, but subconsciously that's kind of what we're observing people that even, you know, even know even after uh people are aware about this they continue to use robin hood like crazy and often oftentimes i forget uh people forget that robin hood had as far as i'm concerned a much bigger slip up last year when going offline during the covid crash i mean that's way worse that was that was brutal because with game stop it's like all right well it's only allowing me to sell, right? So you can map out the different scenarios, but you knock the broker

offline entirely. Now you've broken both buttons during the most volatile moments in the world. And people just got over that and moved on with their lives. And that's because they do love Robinhood. The interface, I don't know. You know, they, they, there's something there that, that doesn't get discussed enough. Yeah. Yet again, coming from the crypto community, we just call that Tuesday, you know, like at Coinbase now will probably be one of the biggest companies in the world and still can't stay online anytime. There's even like a slight spike in volatility.

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things I'm most excited about is their new DEX, which is coming out, which will connect to any blockchain. So you can swap ETH, ERC20, BSC, or any other token with Atom Plus. This DEX will have order books just like any centralized exchange, so it'll feel familiar trading just like you do anywhere that you've traded before. This is a first. It's never existed until now. You need to absolutely check them out at thewolfofallstreets.link slash Cosmos, C-O-S-M-O-S, and see everything they have going on. I think there's a lot of people that are like Coinbase is in there. They're front running. They're sweeping your stops, whatever. I just think that this is really complicated tech and it's very hard to scale.

And they're scaling so fast, these companies, and there's just so many customers coming in and so much trading that nobody's been there before. They're just really building these systems on the, like on the run. Look, I've just, I'm, I'm in the process of my, my journey into the crypto world. And I'm fascinated by it. I am baffled by it. Right. Like I followed it since the beginning. Bitcoin started right around the

time I started WallStreetBets. I'm like, oh, this is kind of a cool experiment. I'm an economist at heart. So I take this like an academic standpoint. I'm like, okay, well, so you need to have a currency with the properties of scarcity and the indestructibility and blah, blah, blah. And this thing is kind of a cool concept. We'll see what happens with it. And then it starts growing throughout the years. And I'm like, all right, cool. Now somebody bought a pizza with it, whatever. And it starts kind of, and then people point out,

okay, well, there's a huge problem because security issues or the efficiency issues or the time it takes to do it. And they start creating more and more solutions and the exchange and then decentralized exchange. And I am so impressed with how sophisticated on a financial level, because my expertise is in the world of traditional finance,

with how dominated some of these financial concepts are and have become much more sophisticated in concept and in some cases in application than the actual finance world. And I am so excited by that. Yeah, I agree 100%. But so touching on Coinbase, I'm sure that you've been following at least what's been going on with their stock and their launch. And it goes back to something you were talking about before, which was the very nature of listing a stock always was a way to raise capital, right? I mean, you would have an internet, you would have an IPO, you would issue new stock, you would use

that to build R&D, all those things. Well, Coinbase said, no, we're just going to direct list. And there was all this insane confusion that I've been on the front lines of clarifying about the fact that obviously their executives had to sell or there would have been no stock for people like me to buy. But so what do you make of the direct listing decision in general for a company, for Coinbase? Why even list if you're going to direct list is a question a lot of people ask. I'm just curious your general thoughts on it. Well, I mean, why list it all? It's access, right? If I want to buy Coinbase, I need to use my Robinhood account or whatever, right? So just that's a very important component to make it easy for people to do it. The concept of access is what's made the

democratization of finance possible, both in crypto and non-crypto world. But I find it fascinating. I'm actually surprised or happy that you brought that up because I didn't hear very much conversation over the fact that it's direct listed. Most of the conversation revolves around the fact that it listed, right? And I'll send out a tweet about how, oh, Coinbase decides to direct list on IPO. And I said something about how these investment banks

are gonna start feeling like blockbusters soon. And 99.9% of the people didn't understand the tweet. And they thought I was talking about how cryptocurrencies are the future and headphones are in the past and nobody read the direct listing part of it. I'm like, all right, cool. I guess it's. So I think it's great because it's, it's putting more, I mean, it's, it's a bumpy road, right? We're seeing what happened with their stock prices. There's some benefits to going through a bank that has done this for a long time.

Not always, because you see Facebook had a terrible situation, right? So they'll learn it. But the fact that they're cutting out some middlemen and they're able to just direct list with the stocks that are already out and about, like that's simplifying a system which should have been simplified all along. I believe in the long-term, it's gonna lead to greater efficiency. I believe companies are going to try and in-house

the IPO process to make it go smoother. You know, I'm talking about setting that price point, you know, the strategy so that they have less volatility going into it. But I love it whenever they're just cutting out a useless step that's just divvying up more money around. And that's also taking a step closer towards, and this kind of bridges the two things. If I believe listing on the stock exchange is good for access, and I believe direct listing is good, then that, then the next viable questions are, so why don't you direct list on crypto? Right?

Because now you can check both of those boxes the same way. And I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to, or shouldn't be able to. So I see that as kind of the more important, more than the symbolic Coinbase is trading on my, on my Robinhood account. It's, it's the, they account. They're getting a little bit closer to being able to go public directly on crypto. Right. Yeah. Obviously, we preach decentralization from the very beginning. And it's kind of when you look at any of this, it's sort of laughable

because we've seen how easy it is for people to build and launch crypto companies within this ecosphere, you know, in the DeFi space and to never touch these legacy systems. So, I mean, I agree that I think that we're moving closer to that. But I also think that really the future will be opting out of all of that altogether and really just existing. And obviously, I'm a bit of a crypto maximalist. But, you know, you'll have your Bitcoin as your digital gold and you'll have all these banks and familiar sort of legacy systems that will look the same,

will be built on Ethereum and you go down that rabbit hole and you could just opt out of that entire system and live your entire life gaining yield and investing in companies you like. I mean, it's possible, right? I've been hearing- Well, replace it.

I've been hearing, yeah, language like this since Bitcoin started in the Fed and the fiat currency, whatever. It's never going to replace it. I don't believe that. Yeah, I live in Mexico. They're trying to replace cash because of the illicit use

and being able to dodge taxes. They're never going to get rid of cash, right? Cash is just part of the thing. So you won't get rid of it. But here's what I'm starting to realize is you'll make it better. They'll coexist. And it's going to- starting to realize is you'll make it better. They'll coexist. And it's going to...

Robinhood forced brokers to give the free trades. It forced a lot of efficiencies in a more competitive environment. And I believe crypto is going to force traditional finance to fix itself better. You're starting to see a lot of unions and a lot of overlap. And this is why I'm so excited about crypto at this point is what was previously just a really young concept is now super mature. You start seeing crypto spill over into Wall Street, Bitcoin futures trading on the CBOE. You start seeing this Coinbase situation. You start seeing ETFs are trying to get out there. And there's a bunch of other things. You start seeing, what do you call these?

Tokenized stocks. This is a synthetic stock. You buy Tesla now, right? So now you got a little bridge there, right? And then you have it the other way around too, where the Wall Street people are able to go on crypto. And that's why I'm super excited and do believe those things are going to merge and coexist.

In fact, I'm so excited about this. There's a project that I'm working on now, which very directly attempts to do this, right? It's an idea where you can create a tokenized ETP, or it's like an ETF, but it's in crypto world. And you can put in this basket a little bit of basket, a little bit of Tesla, a little bit of gold, a little bit of Bitcoin, a little bit of crude oil, gold, if you want, and a little bit of, let's call it Samsung from Korea, a little bit of Japanese yen for the currency. And so you have this basket of goods in a single ETF that you should never be able to buy with a single ticker symbol. All of it's collateralized. So you actually affect the markets and you own the asset, right?

And you've built this really cool bridge that removes a lot of barriers for people to participate in the market. And I'm so excited by that. It's not even funny. I mean, so you guys have effectively are creating cryptocurrency. Well, we're creating a DAO, right? That creates these ETPs. The DAO comes in the form of these tokens and these tokens behave like a currency. But no, what we're going to create through this DAO is an ETP.

It's an actual asset on the crypto world. What we're going to create through this DAO is an ETP. It's an actual asset on the crypto world. It's not a coin because you're not using it to exchange it for goods and services. You're investing in it and you can have a high risk, low risk, whatever. You can collect dividends on it, but you're straight up investing it in an asset. So it's not, perhaps I don't know enough to say the differences between owning- No, that makes perfect sense. Okay. That makes perfect sense. ETP, I'm assuming you guys are calling exchange traded portfolio, right? That's correct. Yeah. For people, obviously no exchange

traded funds, but exchange traded portfolio. So the function of the DAO then is basically to select the assets that go into that product. That's exactly correct. So you're then harnessing aspects of the community. And it was a study that came out by, I need to find this, university, where they took all the stock picks that were visible on Wall Street bets, and they did a really detailed graduate level analysis of how the stocks perform, the collective intelligence performs relative to the market. And they beat it by a very sizable amount. In other words, that this collective intelligence actually has merit to it.

And people can actually do something better than any one individual with a great idea or any one analyst that figured something out. So if you say, okay, cool, let's get this Wall Street Bets community or any community in general, put them all together, have people come up with different ideas, have people vote on how to create an ETP or several. You can have the YOLO and you can have the Warren Buffett

and you can have the whatever, so that now you have two or several, you can have the YOLO and you can have the Warren Buffett and you can have the whatever, you know, so that, so that, so that now you have two or three, four, whatever products that, that anybody, not just people that are involved with this can go ahead and invest into and relative to their portfolio. So, so there's that social element as well. And, and, and I'm so excited to see what can happen with that. Yeah, it's a it's really interesting. It's been proven time and time again, by statisticians and stuff that the collective generally do much better than the individual when when picking things like this is a classic, the parable of the ox, where they had, you know, people guess the weight of an ox and the person closest gets to keep the ox and nobody was anywhere close. But when they took all thousand guesses together, they were then a half a pound. And so it's the same idea. But I'm assuming also what's really interesting about that concept and what I like about

these sort of products in the crypto space is that it really eliminates any of the fear of market manipulation because it's so transparent. Yes and no. I mean, there's going to be new things that come into place and and that's just part of life right it's going to change you're going to remove certain types of manipulation and introduce other types of manipulation right like you're fixing a lot

of the problems that happen with game stop that's 100 sure you do not no longer have to wait two days for settlement you don't have to wait for this thing to go through 14 different places but it still has to go through several places to get to yours and everything's transparent transparent on a blockchain. It's all, you know, all the things that crypto people love about it. But I'd stop short of saying this thing is infallible and unmanipulatable because there will be very smart people that when there's money on the table, they'll find new ARB opportunities or they'll find new weaknesses and they'll jump on them and then those things will get corrected. And that is the nature of life in general. So while it may plug certain holes and we don't know what the new holes are going to be, there's probably going to be some new issues.

But you know what? All in all, I see this as a much stronger system and it's going to force Wall Street to follow suit. Yeah. But you touched on earlier a few times, cash will never go away because I want to be able to transact with you directly without a toll collector, with privacy, without the government knowing what I'm doing. Crypto obviously solves that. Even banks are now talking about using stable coins for settlements because they know how crappy Swift and ACH and all these other things. And so stocks are going to go that way too. We're not going to have 48-hour clearing anymore for stocks. They're going to eliminate some of those middlemen. But then you talk about cash will always be here. It will, but it's going to be digital. I mean, the dollar is going to go

digital. China is already going digital. I mean, the future is technology. There will still be a market for cash, but money is going to be digital and it's not going to be private anymore. There's lots of world. I'll agree with you. China has the ability to pull that off. The US has the environment ready to pull that off in most first world countries.

But if you go outside of that we're quite a few steps away from that you'd be surprised how many people don't have internet in the world right so oh no of course i mean you know so so you you've still got a long ways to go if you're really fast forwarding a lot into the future i definitely see it as a possibility because you can replicate the benefits of physical cash using cryptocurrency. Like I can see how that there's, there's all the same stuff, all the same attributes. You can use them there with the exception of electricity. But, you know, but, but, but are we going in that direction? Well, it's, it's an easy one because we absolutely are going in that direction.

Well, you said you live in Mexico, right? I mean, I believe the stats on Mexico I've read before from another guest actually was that six or seven out of 10 people are unbanked in Mexico. Yeah, in Mexico, the number of people that aren't on the formal financial system is astounding. And it creates tons of opportunities and et cetera. But I don't believe that's going to stick around like this for long. Everything that we're, that we have in Mexico, it's a few years behind what happened in the U.S.

When I first moved here seven years ago, people didn't really know what Uber and they didn't trust it very well. You know, and I'm like, of course, using it to go everywhere. People didn't really trust Amazon deliveries because logistical things. Now they have same day deliveries all the time. So we'll get there for sure. But it's just, there's a cultural component to it, a technological one. And same with a bunch of countries. Mexico is not- Mexico is actually far ahead from a lot of the other ones where it's eight or nine people. And at least a lot of the people in Mexico are partially banked.

I'm curious what is next for Wall Street Bets. So now we've seen what happened with GameStop. We know it can be done, but we also know that the eyes of the world are on it. So is this something that will continue to see the collective retail, be able to move markets? Is that even something that the community is talking about anymore? Are they still focused on GameStop? I'd be, I'd be lying if I, if I knew where it was going to go, right? A long time ago,

I realized that I don't really know anything about anything you know i started off by saying i predict all these different things and this is the best way to do things and then and then quickly learned my lesson that that there's no point and even if i wanted to exert my my ideals like there's just smarter people than me there's more talented people in me and they're going going to take this anywhere that they want to go. Are they going to try and replicate what happened with GameStop? Probably. A lot of people made a lot of money from it. And so it's attractive. Can they do it as effectively? It's not as black and white as just buying the stock. And even if you say, well, it has to have a really high short float. It's not as easy as

just buying the stock that has short float. It needs a lot of stuff. And they've done it a bunch of times too. Before GameStop, we made it on the cover of Business Week magazine. I think it was February or March of 2020. And that article was talking about how Wall street bets kind of cracked the cheat code for being able to find these opportunities and capitalize on them with different stocks that were taking place at the time, much less, much lower profile, but, but it was the mechanically the exact same thing.

They try to do it. Sure. Maybe we'll see, we'll see what happens, but my money is on, on people finding these inefficiencies. In this case with GameStop, it was, let's call it a short squeeze, even though that's still very simplified. But before that, there was the infinite money cheat code, right? Arguably, you can question the productivity

of that particular type of maneuver. This is where people sold a cover call and they got their money from the call itself. And that money wasn't collateralized properly. So they could recycle it and use it over and over and over and over to the point where they'd have a million dollars worth of buying power on a $5,000 deposit. So they're doing what Archie goes did pretty much. And so that was kind of a high profile situation. That particular event caused the problem to be fixed. Before that, it was the box spreads issue with these things. And so my bet is that these guys are going to find

sometimes in the way of the picking stocks or whatnot, and sometimes in the ways of the mechanics, but they'll continue to find opportunities and they'll exploit them and then they'll get fixed up. And so we'll end up with a stronger with a stronger system, you know, and then with the WSB DAP. Right. This is the decentralized organization that I'm talking about. They're going to be doing much of the same, just in a less chaotic manner. Right. Because there's

at least rules to the game of saying, all right, so the way you interact with this thing is you picked the CTS, whatever it is. But if you have enough, if you have enough minds to this thing, and you have enough creativity, you can pull off pretty much anything because you're chain, you're daisy chaining, a lot of components to the financial system. So you can do stuff that I can't even imagine. You can buy mortgage-backed securities with these things. You can buy real estate through these things relatively easily thanks to things that already exist already with this.

And yeah, and so what's gonna be the next thing? I can't really predict it, but it's gonna be baffling again. It's gonna be shocking and it's gonna be really spectacular and it's gonna be the next thing? I can't really predict it, but it's going to be baffling again. It's going to be shocking and it's going to be really spectacular. And it's going to be the way that everyone does it. You nailed it. I mean, it's all about identifying those inefficiencies, you know, and you can look through history of Wall Street. When options were introduced, the inefficiencies were insane. People made crazy money doing things that are obviously not remotely possible anymore.

Even in the crypto space, we saw this, I don't know if you're familiar with it, probably are, the grayscale GBTC premium trade. That's how all these platforms are offering huge yield because GBTC was only available to institutional customers and was trading at like a 30% or 40% premium. So it was free money. But that went negative, right? So that trade disappeared for these huge platforms. Now it's the cash and carry trade. Everybody's buying spot Bitcoin and shorting the future because futures because everything's in contango. But that's dependent on

everybody always assuming that the price of Bitcoin will be higher in the future. But that will obviously be eliminated eventually. How beautiful is that, though? I mean, that process you just described, the strongest, positive, bullish sign for any market ever. The fact that people see this, jump on it and make that inefficient, reduce the profitability of that inefficiency is what makes everything so much more productive. That can be traced to people having more jobs, right? It's quite a few steps for me to do that but that what you just this opportunity to just describe makes the entire system the integrity the entire system so much

better that it gets me excited yesterday i learned about front running in the crypto world blew my mind right i was like jesus this is brilliant right because i was like so what's the big deal with the front run you've heard my perspective on front running on robin hood i don't really care very much i'm like so what are they doing on crypto crypto has such a margin of you know if we're talking about pennies on and equities you know bitcoin is plus or minus five thousand dollars to enter your limit order right so yeah so i'm like so who cares they front run it but then they're like no no no you don't understand right these guys see this transaction ahead of time and they just bid a higher you you know, verification fee and they get it done faster. And I'm like, geez, this is brilliant.

It's high frequency trading like 10 years ago, right? I mean, that's crypto, yeah, trailing a lot of the things that were, that people did in the earlier years. What happens after that is then you have to combat that, right? And so you come up with other ideas to try and mitigate that and that, and and mitigate that and then back and forth forever. But every time that they try to do this, everything improves. So I love it. I just smile whenever I hear about these things. It improves the market. I mean, a lot of people think that options are built for trading, but options are really created to eliminate those inefficiencies with time. You just find them. Obviously, it gives you price discovery. It gives you an idea of what price of value.

But, you know, it gives a lot of opportunity when somebody understands how to do it. And the flip side of what you said is, yes, it kind of eliminates these ARB opportunities. It also is going to make it a lot less fun for people down the road, for traders. It's going to eliminate. Eventually, the market becomes efficient efficient it becomes less volatile and we'll have to find something else to to to gamble on oh boy now you know you just you just you just pull off a market becomes efficient word on me no that's uh as soon as something becomes less interesting then something new was is going to come around that is interesting so find something else so sure that particular maneuver is going to go away,

but there's going to be 10 new ones that pop up. And that's what's so fun about this game. You can either stick with your old fashioned maneuver and still make money that way, or you can just constantly be on the lookout for these crazy things. And that takes a lot of time and effort, but certain people really enjoy that process.

And it just further makes everything stronger so i heard a rumor you might be making a movie about all of this yeah um i i yeah i signed a uh what do you call my life rights is such a weird word for it it sounds like i'm a prisoner um to uh to a production to a movie uh production company and they're in the process of, uh, of, of making it a movie. I know there was a lot of interest from Hollywood when this thing broke out because it's just a great, I think they're bored because I had nothing to do this past year. Uh, and, and also this was just such a great story that, that, that it removed coronavirus

off the headlines that, uh, there was a lot of fun. It was a lot of, a lot of fun. It was talking about learning experiences. Um, you know know my phone rang and off the hook from from people that i never thought i'd be talking to um uh so i got kind of a quick rundown but yeah they're gonna make uh the the deal i made with the studio they're gonna they can make a tv series a documentary a movie a podcast or even a live play. I don't think that'll ever happen, but yeah. I would go see that on Broadway though. Right next to Rent.

So we'll have to wait for that to come out. We'd be in it if they make a movie. Do you get the Stan Lee role, you know, where you're like in there for one second selling someone a comic book? I'll be in the cameo. Yeah i don't i don't think so i i enjoy watching movies it's not really my scene this was kind of fun because it's you know how often does that happen um uh but yeah as as of now the the fun that i've had is talking to people right like i'll talk to script writers

and i'll talk to producers and directors or whatever to kind of do this weird bilateral interview thing, right? Or we want to find out whether we want to work with each other. So it's new to me, but it's fun because yeah, just the types of conversations you end up having with people and the types of perspectives you get. And so we'll see.

There's obviously been a lot of benefit to being thrown in the spotlight, right? I mean, having Hollywood movies made and people buying your likeness, but there has to also be a downside to that, right? What have been the negatives of, you know, having so much attention on you, especially when it pertains to financial markets in the United States of America? You know, that's an awesome question. I appreciate it because I don't think I've been asked that before. So I'm going to have to improvise this answer. The benefits of it are

absolutely the, you know, the doors and the opportunities that are open and the ability to venture into new places. The downside is it also kind of limits my ability to maneuver. Let's say that I say, all right, whatever, I'm kind of bored with this universe and I don't want to do movies and I want to be famous and I don't want to do these things. And I want to go be a teller at a bank. And if I go to apply at a bank to become a teller, I'm going to have a hard time getting that job. Even I got a request by a guy that works at Cameo. He raised me, he writes me, he goes, dude, you're getting tons of requests for-

Oh, to do the drops? Yeah, where you make a few hundred bucks for a two minute video. And so I'm like, oh, cool. I'm kind of honored. But I really can't do that partially because of contractual restrictions and partially because I'd be exposing myself

to other types of liability. And I'll have to think about these things. And that kind of stuff, like I no longer have that freedom to really, if I want to say something ridiculously stupid on social media, I have to be careful. Yeah. But has there been like threats or was there any at any point a fear of litigation or did you worry that, you know, I mean, people talked about you guys going to jail for this. Right. I don't know if anyone serious did, but that was certainly, you know, that was certainly part of the narrative in the very early days. Yeah, I'm not worried about liability on that standpoint like i last year i was in the process of creating um a live day trading uh a competitive day trading event right competition which whatever that's got stopped by coronavirus but thankfully i'm restarting that but i had a chance to to work with some insane

lawyers that assuaged they were able to counsel me on a lot of stuff and a lot of really complicated stuff. So now I feel like I dominate the legal aspect of it and I have the backing for it to know when I can and can't do things and what I should or shouldn't do in certain situations. So that's in case things get hairy. What happened with GameStop obviously had nothing, there was nothing wrong with that. With regards to threats and things like that look it's the internet i uh uh rub people the wrong way i have people that don't that don't like what i'm doing for whatever reason and uh and they throw hate my way but i have thick skin and it just bounces right off of me because when when the accusations get thrown at me or when people try to lob things at me and they're so outlandishly false that dignifying with them

with an answer you can't respond i don't respond i will eventually you know eventually it goes away and so it really doesn't even register like people oftentimes have to bring this criticism or tweet or video or whatever to my attention be like they just posted this and i won't even bother reading it because it's it's irrelevant the the the the people that are positive in the world are so outnumber the people that are negative that don't even think twice sure psychologically they say like you know you get a hundred positive comments and one negative comment and you'll only ever remember the the negative one just part of human psychology but i don't even i don't even read the negative one, just part of human psychology. And I don't even read the negative one. If you don't see it, then it's irrelevant. And what's kind of crazy, I think,

that people don't realize, you wrote a book about all of this before GameStop even happened. I did. I did. I wrote a book specifically kind of outlining where the world is heading. And I wrote the book in 2019, published it in early 2020, right as coronavirus was kicking in. And a lot of what I talked about in the book is the tendencies of where the retail traders are going, where Wall Street is going, how it was that we got to be where we got to be. And what I anticipate is going to happen next. And, and as of now, I've been pretty darn close and pretty accurate with a lot of stuff. I never predicted in a million years that it will take 12 months for it to kick in. I don't think anyone in a large part of that is because of coronavirus, but this issue with the brokers, I, I, you know, there's a,

there's a paragraph where I spot on said that, that, you know, just like banks have to go through stress tests, right, to avoid another 2000 liquidity crunch, whatever. I said, brokers have, to my knowledge, brokers have not had the proper stress test to withstand stampedes of thumb traders that are not afraid of margin calls, right? Like, and that was kind of a foreshadowing thing of saying, these kids are going to break it. And sure enough, they did, but hopefully to a net positive effect. Hopefully to a net positive effect. I know we're up against it here with time. So where can everybody follow you

and see what you got coming next? Find out if you're going to get that cameo in the movie or not. Yeah, you can follow me on Twitter at WallStreetBets, all spelled out, all one word. The website that I'm currently working with for all these things is WSBDAP,

D-A-P-P dot com. And on Instagram, just Jamie Rogozinski. And that's where you'll be able to see all the different things that I'm working on. And hopefully there's going to be some announcements pretty soon. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. It's great to actually hear the story from you. I'm sure you've seen how much misinformation and insanity there is around it.

But I think you offer great perspective. And I think it's going to be really, really interesting to see how this all plays out over the next few years. Yeah, I can't wait. Thanks a lot for having me. This was a lot of fun. Thank you, man.