The Wolf Of All Streets - Is The Real Bull Market About To Start? w/ @ORIGYNTech | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

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Good morning, everyone. I was supposed to be off today for meetings and to sit on a beach in sunny Puerto Rico down here checking out the new libertarian vibes, but of course I couldn't stay away. I had to show up for spaces when I saw so many friends were going to be up on stage as usual. Absolutely love these panels, love this group of guests. I can't wait to dig in today into what's happening in the markets. Of course, endless conversation about the SEC and regulators. I don't know if you guys saw, obviously, Robinhood received a Wells notice yesterday, which we talked about a bit. Absolutely absurd. They're registered. They removed all the tokens that the SEC had listed over time, have been compliant. And once again, just another sort of a as the SEC continues to come after the industry. CFTC chair also said that he sees a lot more

enforcement action coming for the crypto industry, assuming it booms over the coming years. So I think it's fair to say, at least while we're under this regime, that we're not going to expect any of that to stop. The good news is the market seems to have become utterly indifferent over time to the attacks. You know, you go back a year before the Coinbase and Binance actions, we thought the SEC could never lose. They could only win everything and that we were doomed and the courts have just consistently pushed back since. I mean, Fred, you're a lawyer. Enough Wells notices for you today or this week? Well, you know, it's not surprising. And it is

great to see the difference between what happened when these first started coming out and where they are now. Although I like how Gary this morning didn't say that over the weekend the SEC got a Fred notice. That case I always tell you guys about that we're suing them in the Ninth Circuit about the Ethereum question just got selected for an oral argument on the 18th of July. The Ninth Circuit only does those when they really want to hear what's going on. So I am very much looking forward to having them in the defendant seat when I'm telling the three circuit judges why. Wait, wait, Fred, how does that work? You got to break this down for me. So who shows up in court for the SEC? What's the, you know,? And the SEC said, and this is the first time they came out with it after the Hinman speech, which is, we don't have to tell you if Ethereum is a security and we haven't made up our minds. And we don't have to tell HODL law

whether it uses Ethereum in a security manner. So the court, basically the district court agreed with the SEC and we appealed it. And now they didn't make the decision on whether it was or wasn't a security. They just said, we don't have to tell anybody anything. We can make our own decision whenever we want. And so we had to appeal that decision saying, hey, our law firm does have what's called legal standing to sue. And if you're using Ethereum or any crypto is kind of the broader aspect of what the case would imply,

then we get to have our day in court. And we did all our pleadings at the Ninth Circuit level. And the Ninth Circuit can either go ahead and make a decision without hearing from anybody or on the cases they think are important enough. They'll have the lawyers come in and try and make their case. So if we win and the appeal is or the district court is reversed that's essentially a

huge win because then we get to go back to the district court and i get to put all of the sec people under oath on the stand telling them uh about ethereum and why it's not a security so fairly high stakes and then the uh they had they just brought in one of their top SEC lawyers for both cases, for consensus in Texas and for our oral argument here on the Ninth Circuit. So the Ninth Circuit controls California, which is obviously a huge tech area. I know things are migrating over to florida but um you know stakes are high and i'm uh i'll be putting out all the information for the hearing if anybody wants to listen in yeah we're gonna i mean i think we should do that live here we should just stream

it i think that would be really interesting we should we should do that as a special crypto phone hall regardless what time it is but the next had, and guys, we didn't even intend to talk about this necessarily today. How much precedent could this set for the consensus case, right? Because we all saw, I guess it was last week or two weeks ago, consensus received a Wells notice. The second they received the Wells notice, they obviously had a pre-prepped suit ready to file against the SEC, specifically on the question of clarification on whether Ethereum is a commodity or a security. It seems like you're somewhat preempting that case, which has gotten a lot more publicity because of the way that they filed it. Yeah, so I'm glad they filed it. If you look

at our two complaints, they're eerily similar, almost like some of the high-powered lawyers there looked at that and just used a lot of what was in there. But it's the same case. So it's in two different district courts. One's in Texas. Ours was in San Diego. But it would be directly on points. happens in our case is good or bad that's going to be the first case they cite to in the texas case saying hey uh consensus will say hey we get to go forward and force the sec to make a decision because look what just happened in the ninth circuit or you know sadly if we lose the sec

will say get consensus out of here same case was filed in ninth circuit and they said they couldn't sue so you know te Texas judge, go ahead and follow what they did. Perfect. That's a really great summary. Wow. I think we should definitely stream that. Listen to it here. I think it's huge and has huge implications for the entire industry. Do you kind of wish that it was just pushed back until after the election, just in case there might be a little change? mean i this was filed in november of 22 because i saw the writing on the wall and these things take forever so i mean there's a chance that the ninth circuit i i don't think it's as realistic but there's a chance the ninth circuit could sit on it until after the election before

they make a decision um so it could come out right then either way. Sorry, I'm having a little glitch because I'm not on Wi-Fi, but that's a great summary. I think, I don't know if Mario's here yet, but we should probably dig into the market and analysis of what we're seeing in the market. Peter, can you give us a quick overview of what you're seeing at the moment with the Bitcoin? Yeah, I mean, it's holding pretty well.

You know, we dropped down below 60, down 57 level. I sure would like to hold that level. If we don't hold that level, which I think we have a really good chance of holding that level, then, you know, I'd love to see mid-40s. I mean, that to me would be, yeah, I mean, we dropped below 60 and we've recovered quickly. I mean, that's impressive. I like that price action.

I think we need to remain above the lows here from last week. If we don't, then for me, I think then there's a chance that we have kind of a more prolonged, wide, choppy, wear you out trading range for a while before we then start back up in the second half of the halving bull market. But, you know, for me, I think the market acts really well. I mean, as a trader, you know, I'm always looking at Bitcoin. And if I ever get nervous at Bitcoin, I love short ETH. I mean, ETH is a piece of junk to me, as I've expressed before. So, you know, my play is be long Bitcoin. And if I think Bitcoin's going to

be weak, I want to be sure to eat. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I did find that spring interesting, you know, the drop down into the 56, you know, obviously closed a couple days down in that range. But if you looked at the weekly, it really was just a wick, you know, on larger timeframes. And I think a lot of people expected that 56 you know the area from 60 to 52 is kind of a vacuum there wasn't much price action there so you had this sentiment that it had to go to 52 or that area and as usual the market tends to front run those kind of expectations right oh yeah but i mean the the track record the history of of bitcoin has actually been pretty

reliable although we only have three or four data points on it that's that the halving ends up being exactly the halfway point between the low of a bull market cycle and it's eventually hot it's eventually high so you know for me that spells Bitcoin at 140 plus sometime in the third quarter of 2025. So, I mean, that's kind of my roadmap that I'm operating on. I'll take that. That's the same roadmap I effectively have. It's one of those things, we have the cycle until proven otherwise. So why overthink it? Right. In my opinion, could be different, but it's kind of been repetitive each time. Mario, are you here?

Yeah, man, and I'm glad Kyle is here as well. Did you have a chat to Kyle yet? We have not. Fred and I talked about their case against the SEC for some Ethereum clarity, which in July... Okay, so the ePTF. Do you talk about ePTF? We didn't talk about the ETF specifically, just ETH security.

Yeah. Cause they, they did delay the decision on the, I think Galaxy's spot ETF application. Not sure if you guys talked, let's talk about this and you know, the latest on that front, Scott, did you cover it on your show or it's not really that significant? I did not today actually had a guest on my show who is a builder at Arbitrum, which was something I, you know, sometimes I look in the morning, I see the guests, I would say, we're not going to cover the news today.

So we actually talked about L2s, L3s, all that. We didn't really get into any of the regulation stuff. Really interesting though. What's the TLDR? And before I go to Kyle and we've got Robbie again, it's going to be fun. What's the TLDR? The TLDR basically was that, you know, there was news that Arbitrum was the first, I believe, to pass $150 billion in transaction volume on Uniswap.

I don't want to quote that wrong, but I think that was it of any L2. So we dug into kind of where those numbers come from. And then I had a more existential sort of conversation about them already having L3s. And the conversation I had with Sandeep from Polygon in the past that we would get to L5s and 6s and 7s to scale, which kind of made me roll my eyes. Steven, who I spoke to today, said we stop at L3s. Beyond that, there's going to be no advantage in cheapness or speed and scale. So that was really the gist. And obviously, you know, touched on all this SEC crap that I mentioned here at the beginning. That was about it.

Yeah. I wanted to get, so the cool thing about these spaces that we get new voices, we cover a lot of the same topics, including the markets, of course, but we get new opinions, new voices on stage every time. So I wanted to go to just kind of before going to Robbie, Joe and Kyle kind of back and forth on different narratives in crypto and their thoughts on the markets. And maybe their comments on the debate we had earlier, Scott. I want to get you to say kind of David's been great because he joins the finance show as well. It's going to give us a quick macro update if there's any news on that front. Then getting Matthew and Fred's thoughts.

Fred's been a while. We haven't had you on stage, Matthew, even longer. Getting your thoughts on the markets in general. And then we'll go to Kyle and Robbie and Joel, just kind of more DGN discussion. But Joe, David, is there anything on the macro front that's interesting today? No, we're just in the thick of earnings season, you know, particularly for tech companies that people are looking at and also consumer-related companies that people are looking at. The, you know, Palantir, for instance,

had incredibly high expectations. It beat those expectations. Stock is down because of the guidance. And that's where investors seem to be putting a lot of emphasis, as if these CEOs have much greater visibility into what the consumer is going to do because of whatever the Fed's going to do than we do. But nevertheless, the market seems to be rewarding and punishing based on not actual earnings, but more based on expectations and guidance going forward. We saw Disney report, you know, seemingly did well, stock still down um you know they reported that you know disney plus is ahead of schedule in terms of profitability um but it seemed that the you know the real emphasis this week uh has been around the consumer and um there have been some statements out from

different fed um presidents regarding their tepid feelings about the current environment and whether they believe that we're going to go ahead and, you know, get to, you know, an environment where the Fed could go ahead and cut rates anytime soon. And so I think, you know, we still seem to be in a holding pattern. And, you know, unless there's something, you know, big macro news that goes ahead and breaks the bow one way or the other, I think we'll continue to, you know, oscillate in terms of the market and investors will be focused on what companies think is coming forward. Yeah. And Matthew Fred, my question is more on the markets. He's kind of digging into crypto is a question that Tyler from, from Robbie's team and a mocha team asked me, he's like, Mario,

your thoughts on the markets. I'm like, Hey man, my thoughts are pretty irrelevant because there's people a lot smarter than me on stage every day. And so I kind of summed up the thoughts that I've been hearing time and time again, as essentially Mario history is repeating itself. We're going to see the same cycle as we've seen previously, assuming that the elections or the economy in general know Black Swan macro events. But otherwise, they expect kind of the similar cycle to what we've seen before.

I think that's relatively the consensus that we've seen as Scott's position as well. But I want to get your thoughts, Matthew and Fred, on the markets now and what you expect over the next 6 to 12 months. Yeah, thank you. I actually think things may be very different and I don't necessarily believe in cycles. Cycles repeat if the circumstances and situation environment is similar. I think things are very different with the economy, with geopolitics and with Bitcoin itself. So halving obviously has a long term beneficial effect on

Bitcoin and other cryptos that are, you know, mineable cryptos, because they're reducing supply. But it's just a long term effect. And it's already factored in these things are priced in long way, way ahead. And I don't believe that cyclical events. And as I said before, if you actually look at, you know, you put the halving events against the S&P 500, it actually looks identical to Bitcoin. So I think those halving events are relevant. Short term, there may be some effect, but long term, no big difference. But the environment's changing rapidly. So I think that the Fed will be changing their stance. You know, they've been putting off these reductions in interest rates for a long time. We've had, you know, weak GDP, two quarters now of much weaker than expected GDP. We had non-farm payrolls last

Friday, which were way weaker than expected. So I think we're beginning to see the first signs of real softening of the economy. And so I think that the, you know, assuming inflation will fall, and I think we've got CPI, I think it's next, it's on the 15th. So it's next Wednesday, I think. Let's see what CPI comes out of. I suspect we may start to begin to see inflation falling away. If that's the case, then the Fed's still remaining stance that they're going to have at least three interest rate reductions this year, I think will probably happen. So the backdrop for Bitcoin is really strong. All the fundamentals are strong. We know all that we don't need to

go into all again about the ETF and all that kind of stuff. But I think actually, from a technical perspective as well, I actually think Bitcoin is looking really good for the short to medium term. So the pullback that we've had appears to be from a technical perspective in the form of a triangle, ABCDE triangle, with the E-wave overshooting, which is the only wave allowed to overshoot. And now since that, we've actually moved up clearly in five waves, with the third wave being exactly 2.618 times the first wave so that's a really satisfying third wave so we've had five waves up completing the first wave the first wave at a larger fractal and then we're getting we're currently within a wave two down just pulling back a little bit we'll probably retest support, which is only around the 62 level on Bitcoin, so not much

lower. And then I think, so a triangle is a preterminal wave. Then the terminal wave that follows is a thrust from the triangle. And depending on how much that extends, we could go a lot higher. I believe we will certainly head into new all-time high territory for Bitcoin in the not too distant future. And it may be powered by CPI news next week. So the outlook's really positive. And it just depends on how much it extends as to how high we'll go. But I think certainly the next

milestone, as it were, would be around the 84,000 mark. But we can certainly extend beyond that. But I would just remind that this, I would say, is going to be a terminal wave in this cycle. So following completion of this wave higher to new all time highs, we will then get a substantial pullback. But I think that markets in general will get support from the change that is going to be from the Fed in, you know, softening monetary policy, reducing interest rates, moving forward, et cetera. So overall, I think with short to medium term, the outlook's really positive. Bitcoin will continue to be dominant and the other cryptos will continue to follow suit. So you're mainly focusing on macro indicators and determining this along with technical analysis. You don't think that history, that we shouldn't really look at previous cycles when trying to predict what will happen this time around. Is that where you stand, Matthew? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've looked at cycle analysis, Hurst analysis, all that kind of thing before. I don't think it's predictive. I mean,

I've done a lot of research into it. I generally don't believe it's predictive. Certainly, if things remain the same, like you can have cycles, for example, weekly cycles when market opens, market closes, that kind of thing. But these things like halving, it's just coincidental that markets, I mean, we've not had enough halvings to actually make a consensus about whether they have a real cyclical effect anyway. They've only been four halving events. And the market's been in a bull phase throughout these four halving events anyway. I'm talking about the overall markets have been in a bull phase. Early stage, Bitcoin was not driven by the wider fundamentals, but sort of internal activity relating to Bitcoin. So no, I don't think cycles have any relevance whatsoever at this stage. Fred?

Hi. Go ahead, Kyle. We'll go to Fred and Kyle because I want to go a bit back and get your thoughts on the markets. Can I use our discussion, Kyle, to kind of pivot from the markets to different narratives as well, Kyle? So I was going to go to Fred and then we'll go to Kyle for a nice back and forth. Oh, thanks.

Well, I believe in the cycle theory, although I've come over this cycle to not really have any idea why the cycle theory always seems to hold. You know, the Bitcoin halving, is it correlated to the S&P? Is it the election cycle? Now I really have no clue. It just works. And I think that, and I know Scott said this a couple of times too, that everything seems to be happening a little bit faster and crazier with each cycle. And I'm almost starting to think that is going to US elections and the fact that the cycles correspond to presidential elections,

because like it or not, and I don't like it, I think a lot of crypto is going to be dependent on what the US does, at least still for now. And I think that we're going to see some political maneuvering in the in the Fed on the executive side, that we've never really seen before in order to get the incumbents reelected. And that would include members of both parties, but especially the current presidential administration right now. And I think that is going to juice Bitcoin and everything else going into the August time frame. So there's enough time for everybody who just, the voters who just start thinking about this for the first time

to see it in their pocketbook before they roll off to the polls for another two months uh carl i wanted to go to you as well i know you wanted to jump in with your thoughts on the market it's kind of i wanted that uh you know that was the first question carl similar to what i asked fred and matthew earlier but also starting to dig into how you're playing this at your vc funds and and with your with your launchpad as well. So more of the strategy kind of discussion, which is similar to what I'm going to ask Robbie and Joe afterwards. Well, I think people don't give Satoshi enough credit for the way that he planned everything.

And maybe the timing is a bit aligned, but the fact that you have all the fiat currencies around the world going through essentially hyperinflation, not yet the dollar. But I guess losing 25% of purchasing power in the last four years is very inflationary. And right now, it looks like they're in a position where they have no other option. And we just saw the M2 money supply tick positive for the first time in a very long time, meaning that we're going into quantitative easing which is going to be more money printing which means more debasement

if we've been quantitative tightening for the past few years and we still see this much inflation happening, imagine what's going to happen now when we start easing but the end of fiat And we still see this much inflation happening. Imagine what's going to happen now when we start easing. But the end of the end of like fiat, it does seem quite, quite near to me. And as Ray Dalio says, this doesn't happen. It does happen slowly over time, but it's slowly then suddenly. And so I think that's that people are either in denial or they just can't believe that something like,

because we've never seen it in our lifetimes, right? That the US dollar is actually coming to an end. And what takes its place, I don't know. We've got news today that, and I've been talking about this for a long time, like the BRICS country is actually forming a currency. We've known that's been on the books for a while, but now there's news today about them announcing

or speculation about them creating their own central bank. We've also seen them potentially backing Bricks currency with things like precious metals, maybe they say digital assets, but it's most likely Bitcoin. And I'm not saying that Bricks currency is going to replace dollars by any means. I don't

know what's going to happen on what people spend on a day-to-day basis in 10 years from now. I do believe that Bitcoin is what everybody who's intelligent and takes time to look into it is perceiving as the only current stable form of something that protects against inflation and is a store of value. And so I think that the halving cycle does play a really relevant part in that because you're starting to see, historically, we've always, for the past 15 years, the halving really hasn't, right, in a way, because it's always been speculation. There's always been plenty of Bitcoin around for whoever wants to buy it. It's always been available, right? Like OTC desks have always had tons of liquidity. If someone wants to come around and buy a billion dollars from an OTC desk and not affect the price. No problem.

But today, it's a different story, right? We're seeing record lows of Bitcoin actually circulating on exchanges. OTC desks are pretty much dried up. There's nowhere to get Bitcoin. And the fact that we used to also have miners selling a lot of Bitcoin on a daily basis, and the fact that now they have half as much to sell is a real thing. So this idea of supply shock that we talk about a lot is actually coming into effect. Therefore, this halving cycle is extremely relevant right now moving forward simply because there's not enough Bitcoin to go around.

And we know that there's even one guy or one nation state, whoever, Mr. 100, we talk about him on X, that this guy is not only buying, he's now buying sometimes thousands of Bitcoin a day. The other day he bought 4,300 Bitcoin in one day. What's one entity? He, she, they, I have no idea who it is. And then we know that now Korea just got approval for ETFs. We have Australia coming in for ETFs. We know that through my show, I'm going live after this if anyone wants to tune in.

I cover a lot more of this detail as well. But there is also this agreement that was made between the Shanghai Stock Exchange. I think it's called SPAC or something. And the Hong Kong Stock Exchange as well. And there's some speculation, with good reason, that soon mainland China will have access to the Hong Kong ETF. So that could drive a lot of money in there. And so we're seeing this. And we know Brazil has access. We know Germany, a lot of Europe has access to ETFs.

And so this is starting to happen at an incredible rate. And so getting more granular as well, because you kind of covered, you mainly focus on the long term projection of Bitcoin, but also looked at. But you did. It's extremely short term. This is what I just don't think people understand the gravity of the supply shock right now. This is literally not like supply is drying up on exchanges or it's drying up at OTC desk. Like it's non-existent almost, right? So like you just can't buy anywhere else but the open market.

So I think. And I want to ask one more question. So if you compare the cycles, you said that the halving, the importance of the halving and the supply shock that comes with it. But the next question, and then you talked about the currency devaluation, but then how do you think this cycle would look in comparison to other cycles? Because that's something we discussed in the bear market. Like when the bull market comes, how's it going to look like?

And now that we're here, it looks very, very similar. It's like the same thing from a macro perspective, as a macro crypto perspective, just looking at crypto in general, looking at Bitcoin's price action, et cetera. It's a lot faster so far. And then if you start digging into different niches and different crypto assets as well, it just looks like the same thing's happening all over again,

just with more money flowing into it. Yeah, good point. So it does seem like in the early, these first innings of this bull market do seem eerily similar to the past. I mean, so much so that even in my shows, I'm lining up different charts and showing like, you know, how these market psychologies work and overlaying that with money supply.

And like, it just seems to be like, I typically avoid TA, but I like to look at data. And so it does seem eerily similar, but it's also because you look at who has been buying. Yes, we have ETFs. And yes, the U.S. is buying a bunch of ETFs. But who is predominantly buying the ETFs in the U.S.? It's still retail, mostly.

Like these guys, even from BlackRock and everyone else, it's like ultra high net worth individuals, maybe some like small family offices or something. But you haven't had the pension funds and endowments and like Morgan Stanley and these guys come online yet. Right. So you still haven't even had the big money so we still haven't felt the effects really of the etfs and so i i'm i am i am feeling like we are going to see this dramatically outperform any prior cycle i am also in the camp of that i believe in super cycles or that one super cycle will happen where it completely defies any logic from any technical perspective or the law of diminishing returns, which would state that as the market cap grows in size, you could expect to see less significant sways up or down either way. However, I think that I really like this slow then suddenly analogy, this Mark Twain thing. Like it's it's it's happening. Like I talk about this every day on my show. I cover the macro markets and everything.

If you just know where to look, if you just observe what's going on, it's not a matter of if Bitcoin becomes a world reserve asset. It is happening literally right now. And it's just a matter of who who is going to be the ones to adopt it first. And we are still so early. I don't know if you guys saw this viral video of the of the college university speech where you got booed for talking about Bitcoin. But like it just reminded me today of what a bubble that we all live in here on crypto Twitter and the rest of the world is like it like still largely is confused about Bitcoin. And so we are still so incredibly early. But as different countries come online, as the so-called Wall Street titans that represent the kind of signals to all the other funds on Wall Street and various other forms of Wall Street around the world, as they start to implement Bitcoin into their own strategies, that's a signal for the rest of the funds and endowments and pensions to also onboard.

This is going to happen all at once. And of course, when Bitcoin flies, altcoins are going to fly too. And this is what I see happening literally right now. I have an extreme sense of urgency from everything that I'm doing. Launchpad, the media channel, everything that we're doing, I still feel underprepared, even though we've done all we could do to prepare over the past two and a half years. Robbie, I want to go to the same question. Just getting your thoughts on what Carl just said, kind of digging into my question after

your comments is, what is different in this cycle compared to other cycles so far? Because I don't see much. Okay. So I guess I think fundamentally, I always think of market cycles by the participants in them. And so when I think of this cycle compared to the last one, for me, I think the excitement is thinking about all of the new builders and new capital, whether it's funds or companies building projects in the space that came in in the class of 21 and then 22, et cetera, and who stuck around. Because to me, that's kind of the floor expanding that we're building Web3 on top of. And so to me, each cycle seems to just continue to expand the pie. And that's why I find it quite

invigorating to see just how much activity there is, as we can see by how quickly things picked up in the first quarter of this year. I think a lot of that comes from the fact that we had a huge community who stuck around last year and was prepared and waiting for when the market conditions turned to continue to launch projects and to bring things out to market when the market was ready for them. So for me, that's actually a really exciting part about this. And if you want to look, I mean, I'm the last person you should ask for trading advice or price predictions or things like that. I might as well predict the weather, to be honest. But one thing that you might want to take a look at that is interesting is if you look at what's been happening with good old Ethereum NFTs for the

last week, obviously, they've started to recover, which I think is great because it's just another indicator, as we like to say, that they are a store of culture. And culture does persist, even though the price may fluctuate. So it's nice to see NFTs coming back. I just looked at what you said, Ethereum NFTs. The first thing I look at is CryptoPunks as kind of a good benchmark. Is it more the kind of lower cap NFTs that are doing well or because CryptoPax is relatively steady did well a few weeks ago I think hit 120,000 obviously

it's relative to the price of Ethereum so 37 Ethereum is the floor now yeah I think it's I think it's actually more there's a little bit of board apiot club but obviously DGods is doing crazy you know they're up 63% the last week but Moonbirds Mutant Apiot Club doing crazy, you know, they're up 63% in the last week. But

but Moonbirds, Mutant Ape Yacht Club, you know, Azuki's, Mebits, Pudgies, they're all doing well. Everybody's up anywhere from five to 20% in the last seven days. And I What's the reason? Honestly, I think it's because people after what happened with Blur, there was so much farming going on and commoditization of NFTs for a while that I think they just got left by the wayside and people got distracted with meme coins. And then they're like, oh, my God, what happened to NFTs? Look at the floor prices. Let's go back because those are actually fun.

You know, we've had our sugar sugar shock of of you know meme coins for the past six or eight weeks so let's go back and pick up some value in nfts because obviously these things have been around for years and and they have great strong communities yeah i agree and i think we had a it was fascinating as well as for anyone that hasn't been watching the nft market which includes me i had a panel with um pudgy Penguins founder, or Lucas, sorry, CEO, founder. Lucas from Pudgy Penguins. And I think it's Tiffany from Magic Eden. And I can't remember the person from Yuga Labs.

I forgot who it was. But it was a great discussion. And I just didn't know how, correct me if I'm wrong, but Yuga Labs really underperformed in the last couple of years since the acquisitions they've made. I think they've acquired Moonbirds now and after they acquired Moonbirds. So if anyone's not in the NFT market, Yuga Labs is a big behemoth. I'm sure you know who that is.

They raised a shit ton of money. And then they acquired CryptoPunks. They acquired all these different assets. They've done a lot of acquisitions, launched a lot of games. I think launched a lot of collections, which I haven't been keeping up with. And what I saw is once they acquired Moonbird, which is, again, was one of the top, I think still is a top project, it dropped significantly in price.

I think it was like above 50% drop if I'm right. Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, Robbie. Why is that? What does that show? Does that show like a company trying to centralize something that's meant to be decentralized and backfired on them? Or am I misinterpreting what happened? So I think what happened with Yuga is that they spent a lot of time

trying to sort of find themselves over the last couple of years. We've worked quite closely with them on a number of projects. And I think that as they made a very strong foray into gaming, I think that some of the particular core community that they had along since the beginning, the early days of the Port-A-Piot Club, felt like that was a distraction from the core community building of the original NFT collections. And I think it's always hard to please all your audiences at the same time. So I think one of the things that they've done is bring the original founders

back in to lead the ship over the last several months. And I think that's given the community a lot of confidence in where the brands are headed. And so I think particularly with the Moonbirds acquisition, that happened during that management transition period for Yuga themselves. So I think that that's what happened to the price, if I'm taking a guess at it. But I think, honestly, the community is feeling much better. Garga, who's one of the co-founders, is in charge of the business. And I think that everybody feels quite comfortable with his vision and his leadership. And what's the future of NFT PFPs? That's something that barely anyone's discussing right now in any space before.

We couldn't avoid discussing NFTs in the last market. But no one's talking about it now, except now, as you can guess, everyone's talking about meme coins. And that's including Bitcoin maxis, just kind of bringing up meme coins and the concept of meme coins. So would you say that's kind of your hint? That's one of the reasons it's rallied now, because it's not getting enough attention in your opinion, got underpriced, I agree.

But then where is it heading in your opinion? What are the utilities going to be built on top of it? Is it just going to stick to a community? Is it going to have a similar concept as a meme coin where it's a decentralized community with a collection, so a lot less holders, but then they launch a token from there or the community itself creates some sort of value

on top of the ecosystem? Sure. Because it seems very centralized. So I think particularly with, let's call them the sort of OG collections, the ones that have been around for more than two years, I think that a lot of these are going to continue evolving into sort of the luxury goods sector, let's call it, of digital collectibles. Because they're all based still on their communities and their communities have different types of attributes to them. Some of them are focused on, you know, gaming, some of them are focused on anime and that kind of culture. And some of them are focused on live events. And, you know, different communities like different things. And I think with the Board API club, for example, they had incredible success with the Dookie Dash game, but less success with some other games that

they launched subsequently. And that was, I think, down to a cultural fit because the community really felt like Dookie Dash as an IP and as an experience fit into the culture of the community better perhaps than some of the other games. And as I can tell you from first-hand experience, making games is very hard and it's very hard to please everybody. So I can tell you from first-hand experience, making games is very hard and it's very hard to please everybody. So I think what you'll see with these collections is that I don't think that there's going to be a lot of trading, volume trading, mainly because people who own these things and have owned them for a while aren't going anywhere. And I think there's only going to be trading at the margins because most people who trade them own multiples of these collections

because they're core community members. And one more question is moving forward at Animoca. How much of an impact is the market having on your strategy moving forward? Do you scale things very rapidly when the market is where it is today? And what was your strategy throughout the bear market? Because we, I don't think we've had that on stage

throughout the bear market. So I think for us, the main difference is with positive market sentiment, it's much easier to A,

raise capital for projects, obviously, from the investor community. But B, more importantly, is to launch tokens because that's what we do,

whether it's for game projects or other types of projects. And so when there's a good market out there, and we can get tokens to market, that unlocks the value in the project. This space was downloaded via spacesdown.com. Visit to download your spaces today. That we're engaged in. Otherwise, we kind of have to sit and keep building and wait for that moment to happen. So it just feels much more quiet. So last year, for example,

we really only launched one major token project, which was our EDU token for the open campus education protocol. But otherwise, everything got kind of pent up until this year. And really really you know

once once we worked on pixels and saw that there was a market for for gaming um had come back in terms of tokens um now obviously the pipeline is full of things for for this year and what a question before i go to joe is um um what's different in this bull market compared to others because i think that's what a question earlier as well. Is there anything specific that is very different to previous cycles? I think it's much more mature because I think in this space, we're all always trying to figure stuff out as we go along because it's still relatively new.

But I think for us to be able to get projects off the ground, it's much easier because the launch pads are more mature. The investor community who you can tap for private rounds before you launch tokens is much more mature. And founders are not necessarily first-time founders anymore either. You have people who have founded multiple projects in web three who have experiences already. So I think that just the whole machine of creating projects and, and getting them to market is much more efficient than it used to be. So when you say more mature, does that mean less froth and kind of karma retracements? So less ups and downs or more mature projects, more quality projects, or both? So is the maturity on the investor side, on the project side?

I think both, although I think volatility is a hallmark of our sector, which is frankly just because it's, you know, as long as we're going to be in this sector, it's still going to be relatively new, I think, for a while. I just think that the amplitude of that volatility is getting smaller over time. Actually, for a while. I just think that the amplitude of that volatility is getting smaller over time. Actually, one last question.

Sorry, I'm going to go to Joel right after and I'll see some hands up. One last question is I remember, as I said previously, a big fan of Animoca. Whenever we see you guys invest in a project, we tend to follow suit, so we trust your DD heavily, and you guys have done incredibly well, so I always watch where you guys deploy in a project, we tend to follow suit. So we trust your DD heavily and you guys have done incredibly well.

So I always watch it where you guys kind of deploy capital. But it's also a shift to strategy that happened previously. And I know you've heard it where initially Anamoka was investing in a very small number of projects. It was very targeted.

Big checks, but very targeted. And then it became a kind of, people started calling it a shotgun strategy. Anamoka is just investing in a lot of projects. So then we'd be like more careful because you're going to take more risk, but it's also harder to find out who the winner is. Maybe you had a lot of capital to deploy. I don't know.

First, is that true that you guys kind of scaled your investment across more projects? I'm not sure if you've reduced your ticket size or not. And that was the point that was made previously. I'm talking last year and the year before. I'm not sure if it's still being made now. And then how has your strategy shifted in this bull market relative to the last year? Sure.

So I think we've been pretty consistent in terms of strategy since 2019 when we started investing in Web3. That we wanted to kind of be in every place where we saw innovation. So to invest very broadly, even though we operate primarily in the gaming business. So that hasn't changed. And so I think the main thing that has changed this cycle versus, you know, the last one is I think we're being a little bit more conservative in terms of check sizes so that we can make sure that we can get in. Because obviously our business has grown and our access to deal flow has grown over time.

So we've been very lucky there. And so because we see so many projects that we'd like to be involved in, we do keep our investing size relatively smaller so that we can participate in more things. Thomas, last question. I apologize for anyone i'm getting a bit selfish with the questions robbie last question is there's uh i've seen an uptick in otc investments in this market where there's so many tokens listed so obviously a lot of us and that's something we do we invest a lot privately but then sometimes we go to projects we're like hey you know we want to be part of it but instead of buying it on the open market

i'm sure anamoka does the same correct me if I'm wrong, we do a deal where we buy the tokens at OTC with a certain lock-up period. Sometimes we do it, at least us, we do it in conjunction with some sort of media campaign for them. We're pretty transparent about it. We're, hey, we'll invest OTC and we'll get you on a few shows, we'll talk about you, etc. We'll help you on an advisory incubation

level. So first, is that a strategy of Anamoka's as well, or is that something you guys don't do a lot of, number one? and number two um your thoughts on the whole otc strategy of listed tokens a good strategy and how does it compare to again the last cycle so i think um there's a lot more otc activity now than before because there are a lot more tokens out there um and there are a lot more mature tokens and and just like where we started discussing about PFP NFTs, for example, there are a lot of great projects out there that may be undervalued in our opinion. And so there's a good opportunity to go and create OTC transactions with them and say,

look, you guys have a great business, but for some reason, your token is just not reflecting that at this moment. And we would love to take a bigger position. And so, yes, for sure, this is a strategy. And I also observe this from other funds and other people in the space doing this because there are so many people out there who have great companies, but the token is not always flying. Yeah, exactly. And we do a lot of this.

So just for the audience that doesn't understand what we're talking about, especially anyone in retail is that we've got a project, you know, when we deploy a lot of capital or you've got some other value add, you go to the project, you're like, Hey, we want to be part of what you guys are doing. Let's do a deal. We get a discount on the listed price, whatever the token price is, we get a discount, we invest, but we also get a lockup period as well. It could be a long-term, short-term lockup period. Generally speaking,

in almost all cases, the longer the lockup period as well. It could be a long-term, short-term lockup period. Generally speaking, in almost all cases, the longer the lockup period, the bigger the discount because obviously you're taking a bigger risk by locking up your capital in that project. So this is a strategy that I've seen happen a lot more in this cycle than in previous cycle.

And I think as Bobby just said, it's because of a lot more quality projects are just undervalued right now. There of a lot more quality projects are just undervalued right now. There's a lot more tokens in this cycle relative to the last one. So there's a lot of opportunities there and we're kind of trying to scale that at IBC as well. Sorry, I'll mute Robbie before I go

to Joe. No, that's it. Thank you. I think I've taken too much of your time already, but thank you. Yeah, I enjoyed those discussions. Just so you know, Robbie, I, I have a chat. She's like, no one's listening. A lot of things that you say, as long as you're aware, I'm going to copy a lot of stuff you're saying,

just to be very cognizant and probably a few thousand people listening. We'll do the same, but Joe, I think you heard that back and forth between me and Robbie and Kyle earlier, a bit of a DJ and discussion since Scott is not here. So I try to take advantage of it this week. I want to get your thoughts on, on the discussion so far, Joe.

And I know you've unintentionally become the meme coin guy, even though you're, you're generally more focused on Bitcoin and have been in the space for a long time. We've got a lunar crush. You really analyze a lot of these out coins, a lot of these tokens and meme coins seem to still be doing well. I've become significantly more bullish on them.

If anything, if you heard me when I was speaking to Bobby, I keep saying Bobby, speaking to Robbie, I kind of said that meme coins are even more interesting than NFTs in one aspect, that they are more decentralized. I think we're going to get to that stage. And there's more token holders. I think a lot of the NFT projects are still generally more centralized. So, yeah, I'm just becoming more and more bullish of these, of various.

And the cool thing about it, Joe and Robbie, is that you can't do these OTC deals with the true meme coins. Like you can do it with a centralized project because they have all these tokens that are sitting there in their treasury or marketing, for marketing or whatever, or just, you know, OTC investments.

But for meme coins, because it's decentralized, there is no treasury, there is no founder, there is no team. The token holders are the team so the only way you can do OTC deals which is really difficult is that you go to

the biggest token holders and say hey I want to do an OTC deal I want to be part of the community and I'll build something upon what you guys are doing and that's what

Rand did with Tuka Carson and the experiment really paid off something I'm really fascinated by but yeah Joe I kind of

went and rambled a bit but i want to get your thoughts on the discussion so far yeah no it's been a great discussion it's been really nice to hear robbie talk as well and i think you know you hit on something with nfts versus meme coins i think some people some you know they like to participate in the meme coin community a little bit because you know they're priced out of a board ape you know they're not going to be able to come in and join kind of the same type of community where it's, you know, online, it's crypto oriented. There's people in chat rooms and they're having fun and they're kind of living in whatever metaverse that is, you know, with their friends. And so they can buy a couple of, you know, a hundred bucks worth of a meme coin and kind of get that

out of those communities. You know, it's also nice to see some of the ethe nfts coming back a little bit i think you know the investor decision there is you know hey what what is price so low that i think is not going away and like i'm gonna go buy that thing right and so i think that's kind of maybe what's happening um with ethe nfts but yeah i did want to touch a little bit you know on the conversation with that kyle had earlier, you know, where we are with Bitcoin and macro, because, you know, as much as like, I do want to believe in supply shock. And like, you know, I co-founder John at Lunar Crush, so he's talking about supply shock, too. And it's, it's a, you know, it's, it's parabolic. And it's crazy right now. It's like, I just, I don't, you know, three months of flat trading to down just doesn't scream supply shock to me.

And looking at the retail market, we had interactions on Bitcoin peak about a week before the price peaked at $73,000. We're talking 431 million interactions across social, across TikTok, Reddit, YouTube, X for bitcoin in a day right and we're down to now 80 million right and so we've just kind of seen this leak in retail and and we're really on this train that like retail is not here at all yet back into the crypto market or the nft market it's just the people that have been in the market and the d gens that have been kind of trading back and forth that are there um really i think the underlying thing for the entire economy is money supply. I mean, when you look, we still have $15 trillion extra in the market than we had in 2020. And the way you can think about that is, you know, imagine a snake that usually eats mice.

You know, it just ate a dog, right? And like that is working its way through the snake. And it's going to take a long time for that to get out and so the more i like i hate to believe it but you know we could have 10 15 years of higher rates and rising rates and you know as a founder and a business owner and if you are a business owner out there you do have to prepare yourself for that type of environment where you might be living in this world of raising rates for 10 to 15 years. And what does that look like? Just because there's no quality

way to get 15 trillion extra dollars out of the economy. And so I think that's really what's pushing people and different countries to kind of just, you know, I'd say like sniff around Bitcoin more and to place some small bets and maybe increase those bets over time if the dollar can't come into a quality position again. So I think that's really what's pushing things. And I don't think it's an overnight, all at once thing. I just think it's going to take time. I mean, you've got, you know, there's still so many people that are out there that they can't use our wallets. They don't know how to get MetaMask. They don't know how to get their Ethereum off of an exchange into some dApp that they

want to use where they want, you know, or it's prediction markets. It's like, you know, how is the everyday person that's taking their kid out to soccer practice? Are they really like in prediction markets? So I think we just, you know, we have some time left still. But, you know, what does that mean for the rest of the year? I don't know. Sure, maybe we get a rate cut here or there just

to appease and get someone into office, right? But then where you position yourself for after that, I think is the big thing. And at Lunar Crush, we have a ton of projects that apply to be on Lunar Crush. And when the meme coin craze was kind of going over this last quarter, I mean, we're getting 20, 30 projects a day applying to be on Lunar Crush. And what that means is those are projects that kind of have their shit together. They've got their marketing materials, they're ready to go.

You know, that didn't even include the hundreds more that were out there that were just trying to like launch something and go. And we've seen that fall off significantly, you know, over the last like three to four weeks. So everyone's kind of going into hiding a little bit. Like Robbie said, people wait for these hot markets to launch stuff. Now, does that mean that people aren't

waiting in the wings to just absolutely crank when the market starts to return? Yeah, they're there, right? So as soon as Bitcoin gets kind of gets closer to all time highs, again, you're going to see the market go absolutely rampant with all these different meme coins. Maybe NFTs are coming back, maybe even, you know know runes and ordinals are moving so we could you know i'm looking forward to if you're going to bitcoin 2024 that's my like target for like maybe one of the more fun conferences to like have to ever go to in our industry with like all-time highs coming so yeah that's that's that's my piece on kind of what what happened today joe i see you put your hand. Yeah, I was just going to make the comment

that, you know, I think, again, people are a little bit too myopic with respect to just crypto. There are so many assets, you know, NVIDIA, the S&P 500, the NASDAQ, they all peaked in March, right? And they all peaked roughly within a week or two following the hotter than expected cpi print the february cpi print which came in above expectations so i don't think that's a coincidence i think that was really that really gave markets pause coming out of that and it's not just a question of retail not having interest in bitcoin i think it's much more of a broader macro issue with respect to what is the projected rate of a fed policy here and i totally what is the projected rate of Fed policy here. And I totally agree with the comment made earlier, I think, about that it could continue to have

higher interest rates here. And that puts a ceiling on assets, right, to some extent. It doesn't mean a crash, doesn't mean things fall apart, like I think many expected in 2022 and into 2023. It just makes it harder from a liquidity perspective for assets to rise consistently. So I think that's really important to mention here. And I think Bitcoin can go well above six figures without a ton of retail frenzy. It doesn't need retail frenzy. It needs some more traditional asset managers to build out their allocations through the ETFs and other structures to send it higher. But the question is, is that trade going to be put on on a long basis in an environment where you have the kind of interest rate policy we have, which, you know, there are

many segments of the economy that are not as affected, but there are some that are really struggling. I mean, I talk with clients every day that really find the current interest rate environment challenging from a capital perspective. So it's kind of a tale of two economies, as we've talked about many times. Joe, I wanted to go to you on the, and probably Andrew could jump in on this one as well. The ETF numbers, now we had $217 million worth of inflows yesterday. And then we also saw inflows, I didn't know that, I missed it yesterday. Grayscale had a second day of inflows at $3.9 million. Your thoughts on how significant that is, Andrew, Joe? I can jump in here. I think that there are macro market structures. Bitcoin

is a little bit a part of the macro traditional markets now, especially the Bitcoin ETFs. And so there's some things to remind people of with that new reality. Interest rates, Joe talked about that. I agree with him there. Also, it happens to be May 7th. There's a reason why the idea of sell in May and go away actually exists, because it's a real thing. Volumes tend to drift significantly lower in May, June, July. So I don't expect there to be a significant uptick in Bitcoin ETF inflows and volumes

for the next three months. But that's just the next three months associated with the adjustment in the way that markets work during the summer months. Larry Fink and the boys have adiosed to the Hamptons and Montauk. So you can find them eating lobster rolls as opposed to shoveling money into Bitcoin ETFs. I will say that though post mid to late summer, again, traditional markets will bubble up, volumes will increase, and you'll see an additional change and increase in inflows that will happen there. What I will add, and again, this goes to traditional market structures, the regulatory environment and the increased work that the SEC and Gensler and DOJ all across the board is doing, while it is a net negative as it relates to quote unquote crypto assets, it may not be a net negative associated with just Bitcoin.

Bitcoin will be a flight to quality in the crypto asset space. It's the reason why, you know, Bitcoin is the approved crypto asset at this point. Whether we like that or not, it's just the reality. And so as the regulatory heat continues, and by the way, that regulatory heat will continue through the election. If for no other reason than we have a particular really well-known, high-profile senator in Massachusetts, And one of her, you know, somebody that she's campaigning against is very, very pro-crypto. And that's really the foundation of his candidacy in a lot of ways. So that will keep that particular pot on the stove really hot.

So these are realities associated with where we're at in the market cycle, in the market structure. Bitcoin ETFs dramatically shifted some of that market structure. But Joe made a really good point. It might have been yesterday or the day before. Spot Bitcoin volumes on Binance are still significantly more than what they are with ETFs, right? That still matters. That stuff still matters. But at the same time, you still have to take into effect the adjustment to how Bitcoin is going to act and react to certain things, because it's now a part of, you know, the traditional market landscape with the ETF. So, you know, there are things to adjust to. There are things to be reminded of. And again, I'll say it's May. So, you know, there are things to adjust to. There are things to be

reminded of. And again, I'll say it's May 7th, you know, sell in May and go away. I do not expect Bitcoin ETFs to, you know, dramatically shift again and go, you know, higher and higher and higher. I think they're going to be fairly muted on a go forward basis. I have several thoughts on kind of, you know, grayscale, you know, getting some inflows, but my thoughts are probably better left unsaid because they're a tad bit conspiratorial. So I'll leave it at that. Just to add real quick, Mario. Okay. So you look at the calendar, right? So I think it's every, I agree with everything Andrew said.

What I'll just add to it is that one of the other things you have to factor in going into the summer versus the fall is that you're not going to have a lot of news driven headlines to cause a huge rally, in my opinion, or a huge sell-off in traditional assets or Bitcoin for a variety of reasons. One of which is, and I'll credit this point to Jim Bianco because he's made it several times on podcasts I've heard, is that, you know, you're going into the convention season. And although the Fed is very political, I think it's a very political institution, I don't think they're as partisan as people think. And from the standpoint of what you're going to have with the conventions is I think you're going to have, you're going to want to avoid the appearance of them putting a thumb on the scale for the incumbent or the challenger

in the presidential race. And you got to remember, they've got one meeting effectively left before they have to, you know, before they're in an equivalent of a lockout period. Right. And I don't think that they want the perception of hiking or cutting, you know, as the Republican Convention is taking place or the Democratic Convention is taking place in August. And then you're within, you know, the 90 day window of the election, which unless there's some emergency action that's needed, I think it's highly unlikely that they're going to take any action at that point. So you basically got one meeting left really where they could do a substantive policy change, which is important, right? And then on a macro perspective, a lot of traders get gun shy within 30 to 60 days before the election.

You don't know who the president is going to be. And this is why typically in election years, we've sort of seen stagnant markets quite a bit in October before the election. But then things just rip post-election. So to me, I think everything is telling you that you're going to get a pretty boring, sideways, trendy summer without much action. Let me go to Origin now, guys, the partner for the show. And we're talking about different narratives. Origin, one of them was RWAs. But we never dug into it.

And you guys do focus on RWA certification. So I want to kind of dig into it. First, I appreciate sponsoring the show. It was a good discussion. Origin, who's behind the mic? Hey guys, it's Elias here representing the foundation. Elias, can you first explain what RWAs are? Because the discussion will be about what you guys do,

but also about the use case, the solution you guys have, what RWAs as a solution means for the world. So if you had to explain for the audience what real world assets, RWAs, because we love acronyms in crypto, what does it mean? What does decentralization bring to the systems, the way we verify, we trace things right now?

So it's, as you know, today is the trendy topic. So RWA is the big topic. We have been here like for four years building on that topic. And what is RWA? Let's say it like this. We are trying to tokenize. We are tokenizing real world assets, meaning we are tokenizing paintings. We are tokenizing art, precious metal like gold, diamonds.

So everything that is linked to the real world, we can create a token behind it. So today we are doing NFTs. So we're creating certificates that could be certificates of ownership, could be certificates of authenticity, could be certificates that help you to trace the origin of an object. And the goal here is to make sure that you can build a certificate that is linked to a real object. So you're building a certificate on chain. And the fact that we're doing as a decentralized protocol is because we don't want somebody to be able to hand over the control of the protocol we want it to be neutral and we want to make sure that anybody could use

it so um yeah that's that's it so essentially uh first i start with a simple definition is that ownership right now is controlled by centralized entities, governments, companies, et cetera. And in some countries, some countries barely have proper systems for verifying ownership, even of property. I remember the story of a house, a property in Beverly Hills, I think it was, that no one knows who the owner is. It's just sitting there empty.

And so no one knows who, no one could verify who the owner of that property is. So what decentralization brings is that when you start, when you add that certificate of an asset onto the blockchain, then now it's immutable and it's easily traceable. So you solve pretty major problems in society. So you certify it and it's authenticated and it easily traceable. So you solve pretty major problems in society. So you certify it, it's authenticated, and it's traceable. Now, from getting a bit more technical,

how does it exactly function within Origin? How do you guys do it? Because you mentioned leveraging an NFT for the ownership and you have a token as well. How do they both work? Sure. So to explain a little bit like as i said we have an nft standard and that nft standard could do a lot of things so um today it has um we have directly

inside http query integrated we have marketplaces integrated we have asset functionalization around that and it's very low fee and cost efficient and the goal was to be able to do a certificate where you could store a lot of data okay directly on chain and that nft so let's say you have biometric data you have documents you have anything that you want to include inside of the certificates that is an nft you you put it on chain. That NFT is a certificate, okay? So the token then has two utilities. The first one is to mint the certificate. So you are going to use the token.

Let's imagine you have one gigabyte of data to create your certificate. And you have to pay for 100 years to create a certificate for 100 years. You have to pay $ bucks 60 dollars in ogy so that's the token so the token is burned to create the certificate and it's also used for the governance of the protocol so it's a governance token okay okay um and then so how does that compare to other rwa solutions so other people trying to solve the same problem as you, like traceability and certification on the blockchain.

So you said you use the token, you burn the token to create the NFT for a certain period of time. Does that mean the longer you want that certificate to exist on chain, the more you have to keep burning the token? Is that how it works? So let me answer like this. So I think the first thing that differentiates us from other projects is we are a swiss foundation so we are based in switzerland that is very safe in very stable country then let's say um there is other things that are

built around it it's the dow that owns the control of the the the protocol so if you want to change something if you want to do a different thing on the protocol, then you have to go through the DAOs or the holders of the OGY. And then if we go directly based on the tech and what you're building is that today we already have some solutions that have been built. We have some things that are being used by industries like in the gold industry, also work in the art industry that refractionize paintings. So it's already there and it's already working. And we have concepts that work and those solutions make it a bit different from other projects. We are not trying to sell you a vision.

We are really selling you and we are doing something that is already working. And I think that's what makes it different from other projects. Yeah. So I've got another question about the industry as a whole, but the question about how you guys function. So once you burn the token to create the NFT, to have an asset, um, the certificate of the asset on the blockchain and kind of certifying its ownership, you said you burned the token for, you used to get an example, 60 years, no, no X number of years for its ownership. You said you burned the token for, you gave an example, 60 years.

No, no, X number of years for $60. So if you want something to be indefinitely on chain, that means you have to keep burning the token. So let's say you want to extend the years that you have burned. So yeah, you will burn a little bit more of that token and then the certificate will be longer. So you pay for the place where the data is stored. So the data is stored at one point,

you pay that fee, let's say, and then you can have the certificate for the amount of time you have paid for. So if you want to redo it, then you burn more tokens. Okay. Interesting. How does that work? So I remember the whole concept of RWA was really hot in the last world market, the one before. Remember a lot of luxury brands, a lot of fashion brands were looking at blockchain as a way to kind of fight counterfeit goods. Is that first of that solution you guys are focusing on? And how does it work? I haven't looked into it since those early days when LV and all these guys would ask us questions

because we were focusing more on the consulting side back then. So our job was to answer those questions. But I haven't been following the progression since. Are luxury brands leveraging blockchain to fight counterfeit goods? Or is it still too early? And if they are, what solutions have they started using? And what's the adoption like so what is interesting in this topic is that there's a lot of luxury brands that have been trying to create solutions inside okay let's say they have building different protocols

inside and they control everything about it the problem when you do that is that you cannot really trust those protocols because like the public needs something that is neutral. So the idea here was to build a project that was decentralized and that wasn't owned by anybody for anybody to use. So you could have competitors that are using those protocols to make sure that they can certify the goods. So what we are providing them is to give them a solution that they can use to put the assets that they own. So they probably own, let's say, I don't know, you are in diamonds. Okay. So you're taking pictures of the diamonds that you are crafting. Once they are done, you have the whole traceability of the diamond. So you know where they came, which place was they crafted.

Where were they mined? Exactly. You have all those data. Exactly. And you can store all that data directly on Shane, and it's transparent. But how do you link it to the diamond? There's the Oracle problem, no? And it kind of goes to even identities as well.

That part is really interesting, and I think it's linked to having biometric pictures. Okay, so you go. Let me, so before you answer this, let me explain to the audience what I mean. The Oracle problem is essentially when you add certification, like X person owns X asset, but then how do you link that ownership to the asset itself? So let's say you put a tag on a bag, which is an obvious example.

Okay, how do you make sure someone doesn't rip that tag off and put it on another bag? Or how do you kind of link it to a diamond? How do you link it to someone's identity and change the identity from one person to another if that asset is sold? So that's the Oracle problem is that link between the decentralized immutable blockchain and the real world, which is kind of a weak point when it comes to moving ownership onto the blockchain but yeah please let's see how you guys fixed it so i think the first step here is we are in like let's say okay let's take an example that completely works today if you have an object that doesn't move then you can definitely do the link with problem. Let's imagine you have a real

estate or you have something that is stored in a vault. Okay, you have a watch, it's stored in a vault, it's not going to move. Then you can take a picture of that and then you can literally have all the data of that object that is not going to move, let's say gold or anything could be tokenized. And then you create that certificate. All the data is there. You have all the references. And you can say, okay, you own what's on the vault. You own that building. You own something that doesn't move.

When it comes with an object that is, let's say, it's moving, it's going from one place to another, you are selling it, then you're building a certificate that obviously has all the data of the object so you have biometric pictures but what you're trying to put here is also making sure that you can transfer the certificate so making sure that somebody who buys it is going to take the certificate and see okay it has been minted by the the company that created the object so you're gonna be there from the beginning of the object let's say it's a watch you're gonna be there from the beginning of the crafting of the

watch so the making the the everything that links to the creation of the watch and you're gonna put all that data and all that those those points let's say in the craftsmanship inside of the certificate. And then the person who has it will know, oh, this was really minted by that entity. And they will be, okay, that certificate is a real one. And it was put on chain from that company that was, let's say, publicly saying, okay, this is our wallet, this is our address,

and this is what we mint. So those are the, let's say, those are... This is very complicated. This is very complicated. It is a difficult problem to solve. So let's say it's a diamond. How does that certification of diamond, let's look at a diamond myself,

how does a diamond get linked onto the blockchain? Like again, the certificate of the diamond is on the blockchain. How do you link that certificate? These are biometric images. Like how can you have biometric images of a diamond and be able to verify that? Yeah, you take a microscope and you take a picture of it or like a video of it. So you just... And that works okay so yeah so so it's biometric that's like really is then it's easier to verify is it but is it technologically isn't there isn't there ways you can just biometrically replicate something that's what i like that's what i was saying before so if you have an object that doesn't move, it's fine. So that's not the problem. It's solved today.

If you have an object that is moving, the goal is to make as much information as like going as, let's say, as a micron. So the biometrical images of the object, the ownership moving from that person to that person, kind of tracking that ownership with public information on who owns that wallet. But that becomes hard. Like I want to own that diamond on a private wallet, and I've got the technology to replicate that diamond, biometrically replicate the diamond. So then the whole concept of a public wallet is no longer solved,

and then the whole concept of a biometric image is no longer applicable okay so what i don't know say yes so what you're saying is that you have access to the information so you know exactly how the diamond looks that's what you're saying so you you know how the i own i own the diamonds create a new one and i have the certificate for the own okay i'll create a new one and i want to yeah exactly i'll create a new one okay so at that moment what comes interesting is um is that you have two like let's say identical okay diamonds but the problem is to make sure that the damage is identical it's really really tough so in the way where you are saying okay we crafted something that is completely exactly the same you always if you go really in depth as i said with the microscope and you go really in

depth into the diamond you will see there's still some things that are different from the one that you created and the one that was done before and those micro differences is what makes you the difference between the certificates of the previous one and the new one. Yeah, look, and by the way, the issue I'm kind of talking about, putting you in an unfair position, the issue I put you on is like an impossible issue to solve. Like I don't, I don't like to completely solve forever because there's always going to be like that battle between people that are trying to do the wrong thing. I don't think it'll ever be solved, Mario. I think the problem that you're asking, it's complicated. It's like, because it is complicated. I think the innovation on these

things is not... If you have a diamond and then you put that with a certificate on the blockchain, and then I take the diamond from you, I steal it from you, you have your certificate, but obviously you don't have a diamond right so what is the what does the nft do for you does nothing right but i think what it does do is that it's it it potentially the innovation here is securitizing that asset and then somehow utilizing you know it's like you have say you have a million dollars in diamonds sitting in like a vault right and it has some sort of third party it would be pretty cool for you to be able to like borrow against that very easily, it'd be pretty cool for you to liquidate those or sell some of those, and not have to touch anything. And then the third party

just moves it from one lockbox to another lockbox. So I think it just kind of mobilizes those assets quicker. So I think it's like, that's where the consumer will potentially focus, but like the minutiae of how that all works. It's kind of like, you know, when you started a company back in the day, you're like, Oh, we're a machine learning AI. It's like, well, what do you do? Right? Like you just unlock liquidity, I think is kind of the thought here. Now, I think that's a use case. You know, maybe you can talk, Elias, I think it was, you could talk about that use case of the, of, you know, opening up a was, you could talk about the use case of opening up a lot more liquidity opportunities for these assets,

using diamonds in the vault, for example, that Joe used. Can you just kind of expand on what Joe said? Because that's an interesting use case. Definitely. So the idea here, and I think, Joe, thank you for your thoughts. And the idea here is that when you get, let's say an asset uh let's go with gold okay uh because we have done it so i can literally explain why and why it works if you take an asset like gold and you store it in a vault uh let's say in switzerland then you create that nft okay

let's say it's a certificate of ownership of that gold, that billion. And we audit everything. So everything is audited in that vault. So you know that the gold is there. You have proof of it. Then the certificate of ownership of that gold that is stored in that vault has a serial number. So you know that that billion is yours and you can go redeem it. And once you redeem it, we burn the certificate

and then the gold is yours and the certificate doesn't exist anymore. So what we create is we create something that is more liquid. You don't need to go anywhere with your gold. You just know that it's stored there, that you have the certificate of ownership of that billion and that certificate has data, has biometric data, so pictures of that billion and that certificate has data has biometric data so pictures of the billion and have more information about it and the fact that you can redeem it is what make

it real because let's say if you couldn't redeem it at the end you couldn't really trust it so the whole thing here is to make sure that you are the owner of the object that is stored in the vault. Let's say here is gold. Joe spoke about diamonds. And that's the idea behind it. Now, when you were talking about going with something that moves like an object, like a watch, and you want to counterfeit it, then it's how you can get the best data of the object, go really in depth with microscopes and taking a lot of pictures from the beginning,

from the creation, even inserting some things that only is available in the certificate that maybe even the person that owns the certificate doesn't know about it. So like hiding information and those kinds of things. Yeah, and last question, and maybe we'll go to Zilin for one quick question

there, because I know we're way over time because I was just fascinated by the whole solution. But the last question I had is adoption, but very briefly, because we're way over time. And I give Mike Zilin for another question as well. But how's adoption like for RWA? It's like real adoption not talking adoption from investors or public interest, but actually big brands and companies

leveraging your technology. And I'll go to Zilean for a quick question. Okay, very quick about it. So adoption, let's say, today our industry is going into it. So it's not really for B2C, it's not really ready for the whole consumer, but it's more a solution

that is created for business to business. And that's the main, like, let's say, for adoption today. So it's industries jumping into it. And Ogy is bought by industries today. Like our token is bought by industries and they are the ones like using it to create the certificates. And then it will probably come in the future for everybody, for individuals and the stuff, this kind of things.

So that's... Zalim? Yeah, thanks, Mario. Very quickly, there is a really obvious hanging fruit here when it comes to decentralized compute power with all these AI projects claiming to have GPUs that they don't have. I think you guys can play a very good role in auditing those guys and actually unlocking some of that

fad around this because this is a very important use case. I mean, decentralized compute is a huge use case for blockchain environment and utilization of blockchain, but I have the feeling that those guys are basically going to ruin it for us again. So I think that your solution could be

really applied to a bunch of projects claiming to have compute power that they don't have yeah there you go it's gonna quick uh quick use case for you oh it's a great discussion man congratulations you launched your token in 2022 the middle of the bear market um you're listed on mexi um either we're investors or got tokens in for for for appearing on the show one or other, but we're invested in the project. So I hope you do well. For anyone listening, obviously it was a discussion about the solution,

not financial advice. But yeah, it's a great discussion. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you, guys. And I enjoyed the discussion earlier with the panel about the... Now, I like when Scott's not here

because we can dig into different DJ niches. But yeah, everyone check out Origin Foundation and their Speak on the Stage. And for everyone else, we'll see you tomorrow, same time. Thanks a lot, everyone.