The Wolf Of All Streets - Lyn Ulbricht, Mother Of Silk Road Founder Ross Ulbricht and Leader of "Free Ross" on Fighting for Justice, the Broken Prison System, Manipulation of the Truth, the Loss of Liberty and More.

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Lyn Ulbricht, Mother Of Silk Road Founder Ross Ulbricht, Political Activist and Leader of "Free Ross" and Scott Melker discuss the story behind Ross Ulbricht and the Silk Road, the Libertarian, nonaggression principles of the Silk Road, corrupt, controlled, and contrived narratives, the danger of ideas, dealing with a biased judge, misconceptions, smear campaigns, antiquated policies, the absurd War on Drugs, the irony and absurdity of reality, humans as prison inventory, stolen bitcoin, the Supreme Court and amendment violations, the silver lining of support for her son, and so much more. This is an important episode that everyone must listen to. --- ROUNDLYX RoundlyX allows you to dollar-cost-average into crypto with our spare change "Roundup" investing tool, manage multiple crypto exchange accounts in one dashboard and access curated digital asset content and services. Visit RoundlyX and use promo code "WOLF" to learn more about accumulating your favorite digital assets when making everyday purchases and earn $4 in free Bitcoin. --- VOYAGER This episode is brought to you by Voyager, your new favorite crypto broker. Trade crypto fast and commission-free the easy way. Earn up to 6% interest on top coins with no lockups and no limits. Download the Voyager app and use code “SCOTT25” to get $25 in free Bitcoin when you create your account --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe.This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

What's up, everybody? This is your host, Scott Melker, and you're listening to the Wolf of All Streets podcast. Every week, I'm talking to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading, art, music, sports, politics, and basically anyone else with an interesting story to tell. So sit down, strap in, and get ready, because we're going deep. Let's go. I'd like to thank my sponsors, Round the X and Voyager, for making today's episode possible. We'll hear much more about them later on in the episode. This podcast is powered by BlockWorks Group, the only events and podcast production company I trust. For access to the premier digital asset conferences and in-depth podcast content, visit them at blockworksgroup.io.

I promise you will not be disappointed. Everyone with even a superficial interest in Bitcoin has likely heard the story of the Silk Road and its controversial founder, Ross Ulbricht. The Silk Road was an anonymous marketplace in the dark web designed on libertarian ideals and utilizing two technologies to guarantee anonymity for its users, Tor and Bitcoin. After only a few years in operation, the site was shut down and Ulbricht was tried and convicted of a host of crimes, including possession with intent to distribute controlled substances, distribution of narcotics by means of the internet, narcotics trafficking conspiracy, computer hacking conspiracy, fake ID trafficking conspiracy, money laundering conspiracy,

and continuing criminal enterprise. We'll get into all the details, but it's fair to say that Ross was not actually guilty of any of these crimes, but rather was being punished for the crimes of others that were perpetrated on the website that he created. And what was determined as an appropriate punishment for these actions? Two life sentences plus 40 years in prison. Nearly 50 times the punishment for comparable crimes by other convicts. Today's guest knows more about the case and about Ross Albrecht than anyone else because she's his mother, Lynn Albrecht. Lynn, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Well, thanks so much for having me, Scott. So can you walk us through the beginning of this whole journey, where Ross started and how the Silk

Road came to be? Well, he started, you mean, well, he started as a little child. Of course. I don't know how far back you want to go. Let's start right around after college. Well, after college, he's not a computer programmer and never was trained in it, just so that can be corrected because I read that constantly. But he was a physics major in college and worked in a solar cell laboratory and creating solar cells for solar energy. And went on, so he's a scientist, and he went on to Penn State to get his master's in material science. And while at Penn State, he got very involved with the Ron Paul campaign of 2008 and supported Ron Paul's campaign, brought him to Penn State, and began being very passionate about freedom. He started studying Austrian economics and really wanted to bring the message of free markets to people.

And he first started that with creating a video game based on those principles. And when that wasn't published, he turned to the Internet and created the website Silk Road as a free market experiment, not as a drug site specifically. And it was based on the libertarian principles of non-aggression. So it's non-aggression principle, meaning that everything's voluntary, force is not used, and nothing that harms a third party in an exchange between two people is permitted. So that means if you and I want to exchange something, and if it's drugs, you know, it was permitted, mostly small amounts of marijuana was what was exchanged. But if it hurt a third party, such as a case of child pornography, which hurts a child, or stolen property, which hurts someone who's been stolen from, etc.,

that was not permitted and it was expunged from the site. So it became, you know know this huge thing um but that's that was what it was based on and um yeah so he was he was arrested for for having this site and um yeah it's a very complicated case there's a lot of information on freeross.org that really digs into it. It's heavily footnoted with sources. And yeah, it's very complicated. There's a lot of problems with the case and the trial. And there's a idea, obviously, of what the Silk Road was meant to be. And you touched on the fact that obviously everything was exchange there and drugs were not the entirety of it. And it's kind of funny, actually, because when I first got into Bitcoin, there was this sort of rumor around the Silk Road that people were selling weapons and murders for hire and all this crazy stuff. But that actually wasn't the reality of it. That was just sort of the rumor and the legend of what it came to be. But as you touched on, it was really just small amounts of marijuana, like a third party study showed that, correct? Yeah, mainly,

I wouldn't say there was no other drugs on it, obviously, but it was considered this libertarian philosophy that, you know, you're free to do what you want with your body. And, you know, people can argue that one way or the other, but the intent was good. It wasn't to harm. And so, yeah, you're correct. And those things you mentioned, no, they're not. And that's part of the government's evidence. The government even doesn't claim those things. Right. So where are the facts between the prosecution and defense? What facts do they agree on and where did the stories begin to diverge? Well, the judge got out of the gate, wouldn't allow Ross's libertarian philosophy to be known to the jury. She wouldn't let any of the legal items that were sold on the site be known to the jury.

It was only the drugs. And frankly, I sat there in that trial and never, maybe I heard the word marijuana once. They just paraded, you know, images of hard drugs in front of the jury over and over. I'm not for drugs. You know, that's not the point. But it was a very closely controlled narrative on the part of the prosecution, which the judge permitted. That even goes to the point that there were two corrupt agents that the judge knew about. She knew about only one, actually, but the prosecution knew about both that were not permitted. They were all over Silk Road and the website. They were stealing from it. They had the ability to change the evidence that the jury saw. And yet this wasn't permitted to be known to the jury. It was a very carefully crafted prosecution.

And the judge allowed that. That's interesting because I can understand the prosecution being carefully crafted. But I guess that lends to what you just said. Why would the judge allow that? And what is the judge's angle? I mean, I know this is conjecture, but, you know, what's in it for the system or for the judge to present the case in such a false manner? Well, it's almost like, well, it's more like she was supporting the prosecution and correcting them. She coached them when they weren't being clear with the jury, that sort of thing, which is not permitted. Why someone would do such a thing, I have my ideas, but, you know, I don't really know. But, you know, I think some people, I mean, I consider her a hanging judge to give

that kind of sentence of death in prison to my son, who is a first time nonviolent offender. Why is someone like that? I have no idea. I mean, I think, you know, like I say, I have my theories, but I don't really know for sure. I know the government wanted to make him an example. Right. I was going to say, do you think that he was being made an example for the entire war on drugs? Basically, they saw this opportunity because, you know, the Silk Road was the biggest name, obviously, in dark web and in this happening and was probably the only example they had of drug trafficking, as they would call it in that manner. So do you think that he was just made this huge example because of that?

Well, they even said, because you are the first to use the internet quote in this way, we, you know, you're going to die in prison essentially. And there is no law that says if you're the first person to do something that you get a harsher crime, I mean, excuse me, sentence than someone who's done it after many other people. And in fact, that person, in fact, the guy who was running Silk Road 2, the copycat side, he knew what it was going to be. Ross didn't know what it would be.

It was a free market experiment. And so it became this. That wasn't his intention. As far as Blake Benthal, the guy on Silk Road 2, and I forget the other guy's name who has actually created it, who got, I believe, five years, he got no jail time at all. And the government said Silk Road 2 is bigger. It's identical, but bigger. It sold more drugs. And so there's this huge disparity. And I think it had a lot more to do with the Bitcoin, which was a very new revolutionary idea.

It got its first proof of use on Silk Road. And I believe that it was causing a great deal of alarm in powerful circles. In fact, the NSA, it came out in Snowden Papers, was urgently tracking Bitcoin users a few months before the Silk Road takedown. Why is the NSA tracking Bitcoin users? I mean, unless the government was extremely concerned about this new upstart currency they couldn't control. And I think, honestly, my opinion is that's what it was.

The biggest drug seller that was convicted as being the drug seller on Silk Road, it was the same offense level as Ross, got 10 years. So somebody got 10 years for actually selling drugs. Oh, yeah, and less, and much less. Right. And Ross got two life sentences plus 40 for hosting the site where that person was actually selling drugs. Correct. For having a platform. And, but the truth is,

I think it was for the idea. I think ideas are very dangerous and to people who want to have power. And I think it was, you know, they had to make an example of them again. It didn't really work after the sentencing, which, you know, it was so draconian. And she, and the judge even said, she alluded to his philosophy that she considered it troubling and dangerous, that she wasn't sure she'd given up that philosophy. So she was going to have to condemn him to die in prison because of a philosophy, which is voluntary interaction

and libertarian thinking. And the non-aggression principle. That was this terribly dangerous philosophy. And so I think that was what it was. And the Bitcoin, which is also an idea, really, and more than drugs. There were drug sellers, huge, you know, they did huge quantities or at least were convicted of that three years, five years, you know, low sentences. They were on Silk Road doing that. So, yes, you're correct. Ross was not accused of actually selling anything that was on the site, but not selling drugs on the site.

Except there were some mushrooms, I think, at some point in the beginning. Why do you think that there is so much misinformation surrounding the case and so many common misconceptions about the website and about Ross? Well, I think one thing is that what happened was the prosecution accused him of murder for hire, planning murders, even though they didn't charge him for that at trial. They didn't bring proof. They just talked about it and saying, trust us, it's true, and told the media that at the bail hearing, we didn't even know about it until the bail hearing. So it completely sabotaged the bail hearing. And then two months later, they didn't indict him for it.

But the media loves that stuff. I mean, come on, that's how much more exciting is it to say, you know, he's, you know, this good kid gone bad and all that and dangerous person and all of that, then oh, they sold raw milk on Silk Road. And so the media has a lot to do with it. But from what I've heard from been told by defense attorneys and others and people who've been victims of this, too, is that the government uses the media to smear people of more heinous crimes than they've actually committed to undermine support and all that. Ross was indicted in Maryland based on material by one of those corrupt agents I mentioned that had a murder for hire in it, but that has

again wasn't proven. The supposed victim, Curtis Green, has come out publicly many times saying he didn't think it was Ross and he supports Ross's freedom and it's been dismissed with prejudice. There's nothing in the legal system at all now about Ross being guilty of this. And yet the judge used this to justify her draconian sentence. And that argument is, it's a violation of the Sixth Amendment of the Bill of Rights. And because the Bill of Rights was partially written to protect the accused from this exact thing of a rogue judge saying, well, I don't care what a jury says or doesn't even rule on. I think it's true.

And I'm going to sentence you based on what I think. This is a direct violation of our rights to a jury trial and it went all the way to the Supreme Court. But even though it's been going on for decades and for lots of people, they didn't address it. Was the murder for hire something that perhaps someone else did or is this something that's entirely fabricated by the government well to be clear there were no murders so yeah yeah exactly well no one knows because they're all based on anonymous chats and so there is no way to know um my personal opinion is because i've looked at these chats i think it was a whole phony creation. It sounds like both sides of the chat

were the same person. And I know from receiving writings from Ross and emails and things like that, he types like a techie. It's real. There's not a capital letter inside. It's like, you know, very brief. And this thing is every perfect capitalization and punctuation. And I'm like, that's not Ross. It doesn't even sound like Ross. And so my instinct in the beginning was that it's phony. However, other people are possibly behind it. There's lots of evidence, both solid evidence and anecdotal evidence, that there were many Dread Pirate Roberts. And in fact, after trial, it was discovered that Dread Pirate Roberts, the lead administrator that supposedly that's who Ross was the whole time, logged into the Silk Road Forum after

Ross was already in prison seven weeks in solitary. He had no way of being that person, and they logged in from the DPR account into the Silk Road forum. And it's come out in many ways that there were multiple DPRs. In fact, it came out in trial, or we wanted it to come out in trial because one of the administrators told the prosecution of how he, why he believed that DPR was several people and it wasn't allowed to be known to the jury. It's frustrating, honestly, just to even listen to you talk about it. I can't even imagine what it's like being in your shoes. So I'm actually friends with Charlie Shrem, who I've had on the show, and also with his partner, Mike Kimmelman,

who not something related to Bitcoin, but also spent some time in jail and was a victim of the American criminal justice system. And both of them have both, you know, publicly on the podcast and privately had conversation with me where they discussed sort of just the absolute insanity around the process of being, you know, indicted, convicted. The show that the criminal justice system puts on of, you know, the perp walk and putting you in cuffs and doing it in a public place. And this just entire miscarriage of justice, even before you go to trial. Can you talk a bit about what that process was like for Ross? I mean, did you feel like he was innocent before proven guilty? Do you think that he was treated in that manner? Absolutely not. I don't at all think he was treated in that manner. And in fact, he was brought back to New York from California, where he lived and was arrested, to be tried in the Southern District of New York.

There's a whole treatment of that. The whole case is gotten into in great detail and depth on our website called the Real and Untold Story that you can connect to from our homepage. So anyway, but part of this is that brought back to New York and Senator Chuck Schumer literally got out on the and made this announcement to Eric Holder, who was Attorney General of the United States. Congratulations, you got your man before trial. Right. This is in New York where the jury pool is coming from. Yeah. It's like, what do you mean? Got your man? What do we have trials for? And honestly, I feel like the criminal justice system has been weaponized against citizens so that when you go in, you're at such a disadvantage and you've already been threatened by prosecutors to that they will you when you go into trial you're likely to lose and that they will threaten the families i've been told this by someone who that happened to um they will um do everything they can to keep you from going to trial and threaten you and then if you do go to trial and you lose you get a much worse sentence than if you plead to something even if you didn't do it and um this is our justice system now. And that's why 98%

of the accused plea. 98%. What are the odds? 98% of people are guilty. And so, honestly, fair trials is pretty much an antiquated notion at this point that I could see. Now, I went into this naive. I honestly believe we would have a fair trial. I was, this is America, you know, and what I watched before my eyes was so disillusioning and so alarming to me that since then I have been speaking out about it. And it goes into the excessive sentencing that Ross is not unique in this. People are serving life sentences for marijuana in this country. In fact, a friend of Ross's in the prison he was in, is in Colorado, and his friend is serving life in Colorado, where it's legal, marijuana's legal on the state level or marijuana.

This is a new thing that's going on in our country and it's very un-American and it really needs to change. Is that a result of the antiquated policies and thinking behind the war on drugs or is it more a result of a privatized prison system that's basically for profit? Totally fueled by the war on drugs. I mean, I think that, you know, look, the private prisons are an abomination. Judges and prosecutors can invest in them on Wall Street.

This is such a, you know, conflict of interest. It's unbelievable. But, you know, the public prisons are also a whole racket. It all leads to the mass incarceration of thousands, multiple thousands. I mean, the prison population has metastasized 800% since the drug war. Over 60% of the population are nonviolent, either drug, mostly drug offenders and immigration offenders. It's fueling it. Without the drug war, and this is why, you know, I think the prison, private prisons are one of the biggest lobbyists against marijuana legalization, as are prison guard unions, as are police unions, because this is a jobs program. This is a money-making venture that is, in my

mind, if you're making money off of the lives of human beings, you're engaged in human trafficking. I don't see how it's not. Ironically, which is what you're, I mean, the kind of things that people thought were happening on the Silk Road. Which actually were not, yeah. Yeah, of course. Ironically, you're right. Yeah. It's the absurdity of it all is really mind bending. And it's like you said, clearly, you know, they would lose their jobs, the guards and the privatized prison system if they stopped criminalizing small amounts of marijuana or even marijuana in general. So they're motivated to basically just keep convicting people. And I think the even more... That's inventory. That's their inventory. And the most ridiculous part about it is it's had no effect on drug use in the country.

Well, yeah, right. You think? I mean, what is it, over 45 years and billions of dollars. And I think people are still using drugs. It doesn't work. And yeah, absolutely. But I don't think it's about stopping drugs. Even the government can figure that much out. And no, it's quite apparent that it's about money and power. And it's shredding our constitutional rights. You know, there's a thing called the drug exception that if a case is about drugs, Bill of Rights goes out the window. Civil asset forfeiture,

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So all of Ross's Bitcoin were taken by the government, correct? Right. And it was a shared wallet that they took. It's not, you know, it's kind of complicated. It's in the document I said, you know, it's on our website. But yeah, he doesn't have, you know, any money or hidden wallet or anything like that. And what is the government? We had to raise the money and use our personal money to fight this. Right. So what is the government purportedly doing with that Bitcoin? They auctioned it. They auctioned it at a pretty low price. They kind of blew it,

but no, they auctioned it. Not holders. But yeah, they auctioned it. They did apply because we went to court about it. They put an asset for forfeiture against Ross, part of his life sentence or addition to of $183 million that they said was the value of the site. You'll read that it's over a billion and that, well, a billion is a thousand million. This is 183 million. So this billion is way out of line, but in any case, it's a lot of money. And that included all the legal things. So they just said, you owe us this much,

even though they seized everything on the Silk Road. And now they're saying, Ross, if he ever get out, he would owe 108. They applied, I'm sorry, they applied the Bitcoin, they seized off his laptop to it. So now it's less, but you know, it's still ridiculously punitive. He can't pay it. So yeah, that's another way to keep him. That was part of the judge's sentence as well. So you just mentioned his laptop, which reminds me that I read this crazy story about an elaborate

scheme that maybe, I believe it was the FBI, but you can correct me if I read this crazy story about an elaborate scheme that maybe I believe it was the FBI, but you can correct me if I'm incorrect, their scheme in the library to seize his computer. Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah, well, it's all totally, you really ought to read this or listen to it. There's a podcast as well as a video as well as a written about step by step how these government agents so broke protocol over and over again with the laptop. They just set them up.

Well, that's true. It's kind of entrapment. He was on an open source network downloading the Colbert report in the library and got a message to, you know, he admits that he got back into it, but it's like, you know, yeah. So they said, Oh, come on, get on. And that sort of thing. But then when they seize the laptop, one of the agents had it for unsupervised for three hours. And I'm like, really, what were you doing with it? You know,

you had the ability to do any change plant whatever anything on there then later there's such bumbling tech people they they crashed it so i think at least once maybe more and they um eventually it was a brick they couldn't do anything with it and what the court ended up with was a copy of a copy of a copy and i've been told by experts, this is like, this is totally invalid. This kind of, and they did not follow protocol. I had somebody, and I'm not very technical, so I admit, I just kind of, he lost me at some point, but he went step by step by step and said, this is why this shouldn't, you know, this didn't comply and all of that. And, and yet, when they were, they were testifying in trial, these guys, our defense attorney was challenging it.

He was shot down by the judge. And then she said, look, if you don't like this, bring your own witness, which actually is against. It's not up to the accused to do anything. It has to be reasonable doubt that they convict someone. Accused does not have to get up there and defend. But we thought, okay, fine. And actually he filed a motion against that. But then he brought him and she wouldn't let him testify.

Because he could have said, look, this is an open source network. Anyone can get on here. They can, you know, it's an anonymous, it's all anonymous. There's no way that you can do this. And I've had crypto experts say it is child's play to plant things. Child's play. Digital evidence is so easily manipulated, changed, deleted. In the past, it has not been permitted in course.

But now with the precedent of this case, you know, really all the government has to do is create it. And there it is. It's digital. Yeah. I think it's clear that the extent of the allegations are absolutely ridiculous and that the sentencing itself is, I mean, borderline unconscionable. And unconstitutional because the Eighth Amendment says no cruel or unusual punishment. It's very cruel, and it's highly unusual. Highly unusual, as you've proven. What crime, if any, do you believe that Ross is actually guilty of? Oh, you know, people ask me that. I don't, you know, look, let me just say this. Ross admits he made a mistake. He regrets doing it. Obviously, it's destroyed his life. It's

destroyed our family. Not destroyed it, but it's definitely harmed it very badly. And he would not do that. So I'm not saying he did nothing wrong or didn't make a mistake. But at the same time, I have come around to the belief that no nonviolent person should be kept in a cage, that we have technology now that can track them, that can keep them under house arrest, or they can be making restitution. And so I'm opposed to any nonviolent person being kept in a cage. Is there any evidence that anyone was harmed by anything that happened on the Silk Road? Well, look, there were drugs sold by people, not Ross, but there were drugs sold. And I would imagine there were. There were people who claimed it, but we had, there were, and there were some deaths they claimed in sentencing, not even in trial. It wasn't real evidence. And we had a pathologist go through it. And he said, you can't say that they died of drugs. It's, you know, one was in the hospital, one had, you know, there's various things, but it was not solid. At the same time with that many sales, I mean, look, Amazon was being sold,

but I mean, sued by a mother whose daughter bought cyanide on Amazon, which is much easier to access than Silk Road and killed herself with it. Can you say that nothing that was bought on Craigslist had harmed someone? Or Amazon? Or, you know, eBay? I mean, it's, yeah, no, I can't say that anyone wasn't harmed. You also can't say that Jeff Bezos should be in jail because somebody was harmed by something that was sold on Amazon. And there was no force. That is a key point. It was a, you know, there was no force involved. No one had to do it. It's not like I'm going to shove drugs down your throat. I'm not, look, I'm not saying it's not tragic. I'm not. I feel greatly for the people who,

you know, may have, this may have happened. And, you know, I do, I feel sorry for any parent or family member or loved one that loses someone. Of course. So I'm not being lightly about it. I'm not trying to say, you know. But realistically, those people would have found drugs, whether it was on the Silk Road or otherwise, but that's a different topic, I suppose. What is life like for Ross now in prison? Well, since this virus, it's gotten pretty small. I was going to ask you specifically about that.

Yeah, because of course, prisons are petri dishes and it is a more dangerous, I guess, place. I have not been that worried about him because he, you know, he takes smart precautions as much as he can. He is young relatively and he, you know, is healthy and is able to, you know, I think he would, if he got it, I know people who've had it and they've gotten over it. I mean, I don't, I'm not that worried about him. He's not a high risk category. So I haven't, but I guess because it does spread, any flu or anything spreads around prisons very quickly. They're, what I think are extreme measures in that they're keeping everyone locked in a cell 22 hours a day. It's been going on since the middle of March. And only lately have they allowed them out one hour a week outside. A week? Yes, a week. And this is, you know,

of course, the best thing you can do to not get a virus is to be in the sun and the fresh air. But anyway, yes. And they stopped all visits. And unfortunately, Ross's sister is here from Europe. And probably, I mean, the chances are not very good that she'll even get to see him. So, but he's, you know, the thing about Ross is that he's very strong. He's very strong emotionally and mentally. And he's making the best of it.

He's, you know know he tweets about it uh he through not directly on the internet but through written things that are put up there but um i've seen his letters on your site which and the letters and everything yeah and he he's he had he was meditating had a meditation retreat and uh he's reading and writing and praying and all the things, you know, to stay strong and positive and healthy emotionally. So he's, he's handling it, but it's, you know, you know, it's very challenging. How could it not be? And even just prison itself, you know, is, is just such a, it's really a cruel place.

And Ross wrote about this. He went around and asked the different people in the prison he was in last, which would you prefer, being actually tortured? You know, you think of flogging or some of the tortures from the past that were violent or inflicted pain and didn't, it didn't permanently ruin you or being in here for an extended time. And every single one of them chose actual physical torture, every one of them. It's, it's, it's a very cruel and barbaric way to deal with, with people. And I'm not saying the public shouldn't be, you know, protected from some people. And some people really cannot be out. But the majority of people in prisons, that's not true. Before the virus, how often were you able to see him?

Yeah, his visits were on the weekends. So Friday evening, Saturday, Sunday, and then if there was a national holiday, like this weekend, he would have gotten an extra day of Memorial Day. But of course, there's no visits at all right now. And how much do you get to speak with him on the phone? He has, you know, Ross has been deprived of email like most prisoners have because it was an internet crime. But so that's really been hard. Email would be so nice that he could email

people but um he does have 300 minutes a month of calls that's not very much though no that's nothing for sure yeah yeah right 10 minutes a day or so so um yeah So, yeah. So he sends you letters, which you publish on your site. Is that when he can't speak to you? Is that primarily how he communicates? Primarily, he writes. Yeah, he writes letters. A lot of the letters that are on the site are more public letters.

But yeah, he writes letters and does call. But, you know, the calls are, you know, I'm always very conscious of the minutes ticking by and being used up. And then, you know, when possible, in-person visits, you know, of course, are the best. So you've appealed this case, obviously, many times. How high in the justice system have those appeals reached? And why do you think they've been so consistently denied? Because, I mean, it seems like anyone with a brain or common sense can see that this is wrong. Well, again, I have my little personal opinions about the courts, but we went to the appellate court, the Second Circuit, which is also in New York, primarily. And they were very kind to the judge. And I just, you know, said she was patient and skilled. And I'm like, wow, I can't believe this, you know, so why they did this, they themselves, the judges, or at least the ones speaking for the three said we basically they basically said they probably wouldn't have given the sentence that they could see it's excessive.

And yet it was within her discretion. So apparently, according to the law, it was within her discretion. And so they didn't weren't able to change the sentence because it's in the law they're saying hey you need to change the law we can't change the law and um i personally didn't think much of their um you know brief about it but uh yeah i've come to not expect a lot from the courts. However, from there, we went to the Supreme Court. And a top, top lawyer, a wonderful man and lawyer took it, took the case, because he thought it was an important case. And not because we had all the money that he normally charges, and went to the Supreme Court, it's all on our website, all the briefs. We got support from 21 organizations who wrote amicus briefs or joined them to the court saying, this is important, please do this. That's a lot of organizations, and it was from both sides of the political aisle. And by the time you get up to the Supreme Court, it's really broader issues.

They don't delve into all the details of a particular case. It's more like, how does this affect the country? Of course. So, the two questions were the violation of the Sixth Amendment, which I talked about earlier, where the judge erroneously and really violated the Sixth Amendment by referring to an uncharged crime in her sentencing. And the other was the Fourth Amendment, which, because there were big questions about the investigation and how they violated the Fourth Amendment, searched through Internet traffic without a warrant, without probable cause, in secret with no oversight. They even had a directional antenna aimed at Ross's house, and they could track him

through his house without a warrant. They can be outside your house without a warrant, without anyone knowing, and track you. Because of the precedent here, and they refer to the third-party doctrine, which is antiquated, they use that as their reasoning. And it's kind of controversial. There were some judges that really want to change this, but they kick the can down the road on that one too, ultimately. Wow. So what are the next steps in the appeals process or have you basically reached the top and there's nothing left to do? Yeah, we've exhausted direct appeals in the courts.

The only two options right now are, it's a civil court case, rarely one, kind of a last-ditch thing called the 2255. And that also takes place in the Southern District of New York with, luckily, not the judge who sentenced him, because it would have been under her, you know, you can imagine that, because she retired happily for justice in this country. But it is in front of a New York judge. We'll see. We're trying. But the other possibility is a clemency from the president of the United States, because in federal cases it has to be the president. So that's what our petition, which we're closing it on 300,000 signatures,

is about. Please sign it. Please go to our website and sign it or free Ross.org slash petition and share it. Like I say, we're getting there. It's quite impressive now. You know, that's way over a quarter of a million and people who care about this and want this corrected. But that's too, it's, there's no automatic with a petition. It's just showing a movement. It's showing, you know, people I go to trying to get to the White House saying, look, this is something worth considering. This is not just, you know, nothing. People are upset about this sentence. And so that's what we're going for. So if anyone has any political connections, please get a hold of me.

Absolutely. If you, you know, obviously, I'm sure that this largely is the main focus of your life. But I mean, you still have to live your life. You touched on the fact that it hurt your family so much. What is your day to day? Like, I mean, are you basically focused on this all the time or. Well, I do have a life, uh, that I, I'm not focused on every minute, but it's definitely a full-time job and more. And it has been for the last six and a half years. And, um, you know, yeah, but I, you know, I try to take care of myself, my health, I hike and things like that. Um, I, you know, I try to take care of myself, my health, I hike and things like that. I work out. Well, kind of. Everyone only kind of works out. from the beginning and family. And so I also spent a lot of time, well, this is part of the campaign,

but traveling, speaking to groups. That's where I met Ian, who introduced us. And raising money, because I have to constantly be raising money. We have lawyers, and lawyers are very expensive people. Right, they are. And it's kind of jaw- how expensive they are. And, and, you

know, I've met so many great people through this whole thing, and made so many great friends. So yeah, I mean, I don't have a super, my personal life is not super exciting. But it's, it's fine. It's okay. And yeah, I try to be balanced. Especially lately, I've been trying to be more balanced because at first it was so desperate and such an emergency all the time. And I don't know, I'm still doing it full time, but it's, I don't know. I've had to kind of get some perspective too. Of course. Yeah. I can only imagine. So you touched on the petition, which obviously we will push everybody to sign and I will personally advocate for it further when this is done to, to whatever ability I can. What else? And then again, also raising money, clearly something.

And I know that you can also do that on the website. What else can we do to help? Well, there's a take action page on the website and there's different ideas. But anybody who has any ideas, for example, someone, a supporter, came to us recently and said, I want to put up a billboard in Times Square.

I'm going to pay for it about Ross. And a few days ago, it went up. We did not spend a penny on that. We are very, very careful how we spend the donations. And it's just specifically things we have to do with the courts and things like that and lawyers and going forward in clemency. But he was kind enough to do this. And it's pretty amazing, huh? It is. It really is. Bill Boyer Ross in Times Square. I was actually going to ask you, I mean, is there a silver lining here to see this level of support

and the love for him, you know? Absolutely. No, it is. And I just really look forward to the day, which I believe will come where Ross will be able to thank everyone himself, you know, that he will be meet everyone, all these great people who I've met. I mean, I really have. I've met terrific, terrific people, many of them a lot younger than I am. In fact, I said, hey, Ross, I've got a new peer group, young males in their 20s and 30s you know to 40s i guess but i'm like you know but um you know uh they're great people and i really treasure the people i've met and that i never would have but then i'm it's always bittersweet because then I'm like, I wish Ross would meet you. Of course. He would love that. So I am hopeful. I'm not despondent. I mean,

I'm despondent sometimes, but I take it day by day and I am overall hopeful. And I think it can happen. And I think it will, that he will be free. Yeah. How close are you to actually, you know, having the president's attention and getting this in front of him? Well, it's pretty hard to do these days. To get anything in front of anyone. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm more operating at levels of people who might be able to do that or know someone. Do you believe it's on his radar yet? Not as a serious issue, but I have, I do think clemency is. Yeah. Well, Kim Kardashian obviously has made that a very public. Yeah, that's true. But he's, he's been great at, you know,

issuing a lot of clemency just because he thinks it's the right thing and not going through the bureaucracy. And, you know, I think that it's very possible to have him see the injustice here and how the sentence for just the precedent it sets needs to be corrected. And when you say that if anyone has connections in the criminal justice system, please reach out. What level connections do people need for it to be worth your while? Well, no, in political connections, not just necessarily the criminal justice, but in Washington or even in their state. Because, you know, there's a widespread support page on our website that's very, very impressive. And you can see all the people who've spoken out.

And every one of those people makes a difference. Some of them are very influential and believe that Ross should be granted, including the Libertarian Party itself, which is the third largest political party in the country, came out officially asking for clemency and others. And, you know, having people in government and in politics, not only that, business too, or their community or whatever, in Hollywood, anything like that is helpful. It just shows a real consensus. That's on our website. It's very, very impressive, I think. My best friend, literally from diapers, is a state attorney in Florida and is kind of a rising star in the

political movement. So I'm definitely going to put you in touch with him when this is all done, because his entire platform is criminal justice reform. And he's been extremely vocal nationally as well on all the topics we're basically talking about on basically decriminalizing these small crimes and getting those people out of the prison system. So very eager to get you in touch with him. So where can people continue to follow your journey? I know you've mentioned it a few times, but I want to give you the opportunity for one last plug. And also, where can they follow you? Yeah, well, you know, there's a Twitter account, free underscore Ross, which is kind of the official account that I am some help team, you know, monitor and do. I used to just do it myself, but now I don't do it only myself.

And then Ross has his personal platform on at real Ross you, which is all from him. This is how you can get to know who he really is, that and his writings. And that's a way. And then we have a Facebook community page, Pre-Ross. And we also have a Pre-Ross action group on Facebook that if people want to help, you know, we put out the word and you know, there's a footer of every page on our website is a way to get ahold of me and Ross when there's not COVID-19 when that gets lifted. I don't know when that'll be. And yeah, so there's a very reachable through the website and I read the emails as do others on the team.

And so, yeah. Yeah. If you have any ideas, let's talk about what you just said. We have state legislators who've spoken out and they're great. I've seen, I mean, I've seen the list of legislators and politicians, celebrities. I mean, it's incredible how much support you have. Yeah. Well, it's so outrageous, right? I mean, that's what I'm saying. I mean, it's common sense. It's crazy. And as you just said, if it can happen to him,

you are, I mean, absolutely inspiring your strength and your conviction through all that. Listen, I'm a parent. My kids are only five and one, but even at that level, it just, you know, I don't think there's a person in the world who has a child that, you know, obviously this would not strike a chord with or would not find this to be just absurd and really, you know, to some degree, just, you know, emotionally share in your plight. So I really do hope that we can help. And we'll all be pulling for you and for Ross.

So thank you so much for taking the time. This is really, really a pleasure. And we'll make sure that we get the word out to as many people as possible. Really appreciate it, Scott. Thanks so much. Let's go. channels are in the show notes. You can also follow me on Twitter at Scott Melker to continue the conversation. See you next week.