The Wolf Of All Streets - Major Bitcoin Signal? Whales Selling As Institutions Buy! - Matt Hougan

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

#Bitcoin #Crypto #Finance Bitcoin is sending mixed signals as institutional demand surges while whales continue to sell, creating one of the most important market setups of the year. With hundreds of millions flowing into Bitcoin ETFs despite price weakness, many are asking whether this is a sign of smart money accumulating—or a warning of further downside. In today’s livestream, I’m joined by Matt Hougan to break down what’s really happening beneath the surface, from ETF flows and whale activity to macro conditions and the evolving role of institutions in crypto. Is this the great transfer of Bitcoin—or the start of something bigger? 🎙 Guests Matt Hougan - https://x.com/Matt_Hougan Andrew Parish: https://x.com/AP_Abacus Tillman Holloway: https://x.com/texasol61 Discover Bitcoin Yield: https://archpublic.com/ 🚀 Connect & Learn Join The Wolf Pack Community Channel (Free Telegram) – Daily crypto market updates + direct chat with Scott: https://t.me/+34ihhgJnZYRlOWU8 Join The Wolf Pack News Channel (Free Telegram) - Daily crypto news & technical analysis with Scott: https://t.me/+Jzsrl5Xp9NJmMDk0 Free Wolf Den Newsletter – Crypto news & market analysis every weekday: https://thewolfden.substack.com/ 📊 Featured Trading Tools OKX – Trade like a pro with 1:1 backed assets and industry-leading speed. Start your journey: https://app.okx.com/join/THEWOAS Arch Public – Hedge-fund-level algorithmic trading tools: https://archpublic.com/ Trading Alpha – Pro-grade crypto indicators (Code: 10OFF): https://tradingalpha.io/?via=scottmelker 📲 Follow Scott Melker Twitter/X: https://x.com/scottmelker Website: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io/ Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3FASB2c 📩Promote your brand with The Wolf of All Streets. For sponsorship & partnership opportunities, contact [e-mail] ⚠️ Disclaimer The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Potential major Bitcoin signal is flashing, which is that we're having massive inflows, especially yesterday, into Bitcoin ETFs and institutions buying while apparently early whales and retail are selling. Could this finally be that transfer of wealth that we've been looking for in the Bitcoin space showing its face? We're going to discuss this and everything else happening in the market and crypto news, of course with Tillman and Andrew, but with a very special guest, Matt Hogan. go. Let's go.

Good morning, everybody. Happy Tuesday and welcome to the show. Going to go ahead right now, right after you subscribe and like or do whatever it is you people do out there. I don't want to get into your personal business. And bring on to Andrew, Matt, and Tillman. Good morning, gentlemen. How are you all?

Morning, Scott. Start where Matt is. I can tell you. He works hard. He starts early out here. He's one of those hardworking guys. It's up early. You like that.

All right. So this one kind of shocked me when I opened up the terminal this morning at, and by terminal, I mean my phone. But I wanted to sound like I like was a Bloomberg GANL. Yeah, Bitcoin UTF saw 471 million in inflows yesterday. The highest since the U.S. Iran War began. I don't know why that's the metric we're using. But BlackRock led with 182, followed by Fidelity with 147.

Institutional demand is picking up again. You can see it here on the chart. And interestingly, I showed the study from River yesterday. that showed, I think it was 69,000 Bitcoin bought by institutions in the first quarter, while I think it was 61 or 62 were sold by retail in the first quarter. So you had this massive institutional buying. Governments were like 20,000 or something. And, you know, ETFs, I think the netted out pretty low, a few thousand Bitcoin.

And retail selling like crazy. So what's going on here? That's exactly what's going on. I mean, as you know, we meet with institutional investors all day long. It's still a raging bull market in that market. They are just interested in Bitcoin. They're moving into Bitcoin that hasn't slowed down. When we go to the large wirehouses, they're increasingly engaged with Bitcoin as well.

It really is a tale of two worlds. They're not that concerned about the quantum threat. They're just seeing this as a natural cyclical opportunity to allocate. And retail hasn't seen that yet. I don't know when they will see that. Maybe the guys have some views, but that's the story. There is just no bare market in institutional interest in crypto right now. We should probably delineate that, you know, Bitcoin ETFs, like they're not just inherently

institutional, by the way. Like, you know, retail money is going into those ETFs. It's just different retail money than, you know, anonymous, funny-looking avatar, crypto, Twitter people. Okay. And there are different segments of the market. These are people that have accounts at Morgan Stanley, UBS, Merrill Lynch, and Wells Fargo. Those people are allocating to Bitcoin. And those are the majority of the flows.

It's not just some sultan of Saudi Arabia that's dumping $100 million into Ibit on any given day. It's thousands upon thousands of people making additional allocations to the Bitcoin ETFs. And again, we haven't been able to talk with Matt about this, but I'd be very interested in his thoughts on the Morgan Stanley Bitcoin ETF. And what a truly big deal that is as it relates to quote unquote retail, but retail being high net worth, ultra high net worth folks. Morgan Stanley doesn't do that unless there is a mega signal from their core constituencies that says, we want this product, right? I think that's absolutely right. They are the creme de la creme of this wealth management space,

and they're the largest firm in that space. And they haven't launched many ETFs. They haven't put their name behind many ETFs. I've said this before. I think it's a big difference between allowing your clients to access third-party ETFs versus launching your own ETF with your name on it. And I think it does speak. to that demand. I would say, you know, I think a lot of crypto natives wonder how this is possible.

A lot of these people have zero allocation. If you have a zero allocation and you're looking at this market, you're like, ah, great, I have a chance to get in. Right. You have none of the emotional damage of the up and down and pain of the last few years. You just see it strictly as an opportunity. So I think this is a trend with legs for years. I mean, the Morgan Stanley ETF isn't even out. right? It's coming. And yeah, I think it's a really big deal. Yeah, I would echo that. I think if you measure you know, corporate adoption as a percentage, I mean, you know, the 1% to 3% allocation, I think, is kind of unarguable at this point as a hedge. I think most people that have heard the narrative believe that. But now they have to put it in practice. And I think that's where we're going to see a

large catch-up. I don't think that many companies have tackled this. And I think that we're going to, you know, something that always is pressing to me is if you do have zero allocation, like Matt said, it's one of those begging questions, what other asset can provide me, all the coverage points, all the asymmetric upside, what Bitcoin can provide you. They're really, after you do your due diligence, some takes years. some take very, you know, months. But at the end of that, you know, that educational process, there is no asset like Bitcoin. And so you come back to the realization of, oh, I've got to do something.

And I don't even think we've begun that journey. So I think this rising tide floats all ships, both from retail. As, you know, like Andrew just pointed out, there's retail mass adoption happening or systematic adoption happening. But I think also from a corporation perspective, it's the only one. way to rebuild the middle class of America, in my opinion, as quickly as we need it to be rebuilt, is to educate small businesses as to how to save money in Bitcoin. Some, you could justify a way larger percentage than 5%, 10%, 15%, based upon their cash position and what their overhead costs are.

And some, you can't. But Michael Saylor is a great example of taking a business that's kind of dying on the legacy front and reinventing themselves. That's one example that's a very extreme example, but there's a huge spectrum there that can help small businesses as it relates to Bitcoin. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I'll have one more thing from the sort of institutional corner, a story that I heard when I was talking with top 50 endowment a few weeks ago that it allocated into the space. And the reason they allocated was that their peers were allocating. And I think that speaks a little bit to what you're getting after. Once you see a few people doing this, it becomes the bar, just getting off zero. And they had made a sizable allocation just because

they didn't want to be off beta compared to their peers, the other endowments in their region who had allocated it as well. That's another way that this sort of spirals out. Matt, do you think that when we see a spike in inflows like this? I mean, we've talked about inflows and outflows forever, but yesterday was really sizable, right? You know, over 400 million. Is that because some random large entity finally allocates? Because it doesn't seem to necessarily track price directly. We had a nice little spike yesterday, but when we're moving between 67 and 69,000, it doesn't

seem like, you know, these huge ETF spikes are really shown in the price. Yeah. I think those one day spikes and it was concentrated in three providers. Often some of that is like a large hedge fund putting on a trade and deciding to distribute it across. The best flows are when you see everybody get flows, all nine providers or whatever. That is the best possible signal. Sometimes you just see BlackRock because they are the largest. This one felt a little bit like someone putting on a trade.

But I do think if you look at that chart more broadly, it's a generally positive story. given the direction of price. Do people utilize the BlackRock one because if it's a hedge fund, they have more size and options around it so they can put on like a more complex trade, basically, I'm assuming. Yeah, as painful as it is as it is for me, liquidity begets liquidity in ETF lands. So the big get bigger and it's the easy button for a lot of people. What do we make of the fact that apparently, I mean, I can see,

I can show you an article that shows the exact, opposite from like two days ago, but here we are. But as I said, the other side of this is not only that retail selling, but we've also seen some data that whales are once again selling here around 70,000. So we know they sold above 100 in size. We know they continued selling down. Most metrics showed that they somewhat stopped when we got to 60 and we kind of rose back to 70s. It seems that now alongside retail, some of them are selling again. But like I said, inflows are up and institutional buying up. So. Yeah. Go ahead.

I would just say that it's a really healthy market is the best way that I can say it. Because if you've got quote unquote institutions or whales selling, who are they selling to? Well, we just talked about Bitcoin ETFs gobbling up Bitcoin, right? So there's a healthiness to the market overall. That's generally the way I look at it. I don't try and deconstruct, you know, are whales selling and what does that look like? What does it mean on any given day? I don't find that all that interesting.

What I do find interesting is, you know, the fact that, you know, BlackRock, again, with the liquidity and the options, that particular, the scale of that market, you know, their options there have gotten so big. And so influential in the space, it's hard to quantify, honestly. And the fact that they've created a second ETF to capitalize on that particular market is really something. There's two ways to look at it, right? It's, oh, okay, that's the scale of Bitcoin and the interest in Bitcoin and the volumes and liquidity they're going through Bitcoin. all of that's generally speaking a good thing but also you know it's kind of a funny looking meme where black rock does this and then it does this and then it does this is just black rock doing a bunch stuff with black rock right so is that good i don't know if that's necessarily great um so it's called

a flywheel andrew come on it's but you know yeah a flywheel but when it's created you know just amongst black rock doing black rock things or black rock um yeah i find it i find it interesting i love to get matt's thoughts on that right that particular product um and again what it will do to things like volatility with bitcoin which is often a feature not a flaw um yeah yeah but just like to get his thoughts yeah a bunch of thoughts about the option overlay space which is really really big i mean even at bitwise we do a lot of SMAs. We have a lot of people in kind Bitcoin into our ETF so they can do an option overlay strategy on it.

I'll say two things. One, it actually explains to me part of the reason Bitcoin is down so much, even though the underlying statistics look like a balance between buying and selling. Because if you hold Bitcoin and you're continually writing calls against it, you're selling away the upside. I actually think there's a lot of this not on-chain selling happening through these option overlay strategies, who remain long, technically, but have given away their upside in exchange for income. And I think that's part of the reason we're down so much. They're free to do that.

Their alternative would be just to sell directly. So it's not like added sell pressure versus it, but this is what they're choosing to do. In terms of it, it should compress volatility. over time, right? The more liquidity, the more instruments, it should compress volatility over time. It can create situations where volatility sort of ramps into itself as markets move so you can get accelerations, but you wouldn't be surprised to see this sort of channelization

in a market with a lot of option overlay strategies. And that's kind of what we've seen. And I think, look, I think volatility, will not decline as much as it has over the last five years, but will continue to decline as these markets get more institutional, more liquid, and there are more derivatives on top. It is compelling that, you know, two years ago, everybody on the planet, every analyst everywhere,

was like, well, you know, Bitcoin ETF, they'll launch, and they'll do okay, and maybe the asset class will bring in five, seven billion in the first year. And it gets completely blew up. all that away. And then the options happen. And the options have absolutely, you know, NASA launch blown everything everywhere away. It is. NASA doesn't launch things. It's fake. Yeah. It's flat. Yeah. Right. So I think there's a, there's a bit, let me point something out. I think there's

that we're talking around and we're, we're not talking to, which is there's a migration that's happening from cold storage and from self-custody into. paper products as a whole. I think people want paper products for the convenience of it, for the custodian, you know, the value of the lack of complexity that it injects into the situation and the risk that it injects. All of these things, the options are just another version of paper that's, you know, and ultimately it's the which is the dog and which is the tail. And we know the answer to that. And I think a lot of Bitcoiners are struggling with the realization of the answer of that, which is that the paper gets a lot bigger eventually. And we're seeing that, you know, in real time.

And so, yes, we're seeing a lot of whales sell. I know of many that I've heard that are selling a lot of Bitcoin, but they're all, they've been in the game for a long time. They've had more than a 10x. And so it's going from weaker hands because they've already had all their upside that will change their life forever. They capitalize on that to people who are satisfied. If institutions saw Bitcoin go back to its all-time high, they would be having parades. That's asymmetric upside compared to what they typically invest in. And yet all those same people that I just mentioned would be very disappointed if it capped out at 126 and started falling back down again. So it's just the mindset of who's on the other side of the buyer of the sell.

And we're seeing a new wave of investors, the biggest wave with the deepest pockets, the most liquidity, come into the space saying this is a value for me. This provides me. And I think that's incredibly encouraging. I mean, you try to follow smart money in life. And that's about as smart of money as it gets. Yeah. And everyone. I think that's exactly right.

It is a generational shift. It's changing the asset. It will change its shape of its returns in the future. But it is a huge tanker-sized amount of money that is coming into the space. It just takes time. It takes time. I think it just confuses people that price hasn't followed. And of course, I mean, we've said it a million times.

But when all coins don't move, the crypto people get freaked out. Right. So, like, you know, still not much hope there for coin number 140. fix to catch that. At the same time, too, though, you know, again, Matt, tell me if I'm wrong, but when you're doing presentations at, you know, trillion or billion dollar RIAs and Morgan Stanley's and the Wells Fargoes of the world, you're not got a whole lot of questions about altcoins, are you? Is that coming up much? Come on. They want to know about CB you knew.

You're just not. No, that is right. Yeah, they're interested in Ethereum. They're interested in Solana and maybe ChainLink, and then that it sort of peters out. Yeah. To that end, like do they ask about the tokens or they ask about the narratives? Because I would be surprised if they're not saying, hey, how do I do, how do I participate in tokenization or RWA or whatever? And they're not asking like, you know, is that through some specific token, right? No, that is exactly right.

How do I participate in stable coins and tokenization? It's Bitcoin, Stablecoins and tokenization. Those are the only two things you can talk to them about. Okay. And the reports. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

The report says tokenized assets representing real world assets are expected to see continued growth with some projections estimated market to reach 13 trillion by 2030. IMF is talking about tokenization, which by the way, they're the evil empire. So I'm not sharing that. But I mean, this is right. These, this is what shows up on these people's terminals. Absolutely right. And it's worth noting that 13 trillion is a lot more than

20 billion, which is about where we are. There are many zeros. And so they see that and they want that exposure. But yeah, but they don't want to talk about the 15th alt coins. It's a nuclear winner in altcoins. You know, a lot of them are just gone. That's just going to be it. And that's going to weigh on crypto retail sentiment, I think, for a while. The signal there is that utility has finally arrived. I mean, we've talked about utility and the altcoin side of things for, the last three cycles. And, you know, whether it's XRP settling Swift or, you know, you just go back to every narrative in every altcoin as to what their true use case is. I think Wall Street said Bitcoin's use case is this and money followed because it proved to be very valuable as that

use case. And I think that we're going to see the same thing in altcoins, but it's very hard for an altcoin to compete with tokenized oil. we know the utility of oil. So now you have true utility in real world assets that is coming in to compete with hypothetical utility. It's not going to go well for the hypothetical side of things. Now, it doesn't mean that alt coins or what Matt just said is they want to know about real world assets. And what follows that is, okay, Ethereum I can do that on. Solana, I can do that on right now.

but there will be many, many more that you can do that on. There will be better. There will be different. All of that is just maturing, but there is one thing that we do know that tokenized oil went from, I think, 25 million in volume on day one to 1.2 billion in day two. Like people see the utility of tokenized commodities, and that's a very, very easy place to start because, you know, it's better for everybody, including the exchanges. Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

I think we've seen what works in the tokenization space, which is when the blockchain is in the background and no one knows about it, basically. Yep. That is what works. I've worked on hyperliquid. It works on polymarket. Once the last time someone talked to you about the underpinnings of, no one cares, right? No one cares.

That is the application that you want to see. That's where the growth will be. Yeah. How do you index for that when you're creating products? Well, good segue. You know, look, I think what you're going to see is a lot of ETFs that are thematic in nature. I think you're going to see ETFs that focus on themes like stable coins and tokenization and other areas of the market. I think you're going to see a lot more interesting crypto

equities, to be honest, because that's another way that this gets explained into Tradfide, that they can wrap their heads around. But I think, the days of single asset ETPs, there's probably hyperliquid maybe like the last one left that could have some interest. But generally speaking, I think people are going to want to own groups of assets to gain exposure to themes and aren't going to care about this versus that versus that. Sort of the days of debating Ethan Salana. Those days aren't going to exist for the institutional community. They're just going to want to own all of that to the extent. Will it be blended with tokens and equities?

Obviously, like if you have a stable coin index, it's going to have to own circle, right? But I don't even know. And maybe there's some tokenization side to that. But, you know, are these going to be effectively blended indexes? I think you'll see that. I think you'll see that. There are some reasons, some arcane regulatory reasons that that's a little bit complex. But it's a solvable problem with things like Cayman subs.

But yes, you're going to see those blends. I would even add, you know, I've made this pitch to a few people. One way to think about things like ETH and Solana is if you own, let's say, a financials index and you don't own ETH and you don't own Salana and you don't own ChainLake, do you really own the financials index? I'm not sure that you do, right? If you own the Q's and you don't have crypto in it, do you really own technology? I'm not sure that you do.

So I think, you know, to your point, there's a separation. of equities and tokens, which is not something Requel really care about. They just want exposure to the theme. So I think you're going to see those two come together increasingly in ETF products. When? I can't give you my layout, Scott.

I fear my competitors might be listening. But look, it's higher on our mind. Exactly. It's high on our mind. And we're hearing it from clients, right? We hear when we talk about stable coins and tokenization, I gave a big talk on that topic to Barron's, the Barron's top RIA conference,

like their 100 largest RIAs. At the end, I have this complicated slide that says how to invest. It has like 12 things on it. And it's a terrible slide. But that is the answer to how to invest. Like there is no one answer. You can't just buy one thing. It's like buy these five crypto assets and then you want some circle and some Robin Hood and some Coinbase and whatever.

I would love for that slide to just have a ticker. So we're working on it. Yeah, that makes sense. Andrew, I think you're about to say something. Yeah, I mean, that's just, I mean, that's classic wealth management, right? The reason why Matt's like, I wish this slide didn't have 17 things on is because I know my audience is thinking, I don't really want to have to. I don't have to explain this to my 68-year-old client who doesn't know what any of this means.

How many phones come up at that slide and they start taking pictures during that? It's absolutely right. And these guys are busy, right? I've said this before, but the average wealth manager spends, I think, 8% of their time on portfolio construction. And if crypto is 2% of it. It's 2% of 8. Think about how many minutes a week that is for them to think about this space. It's like it's like rounds to zero. So they need something easy. That is the solution that works for that. Yeah. In that world, assets under management is the game. It's it's basically the 92% game. So what do they spend 90% doing talking to other 68 year olds with lots of money to bring them into their into their practice? And so yeah. I mean, there's a reason why in wealth management.

There really are no more guys that are sitting at their computer, you know, doing, picking out allocations for subsections of their, they farm all that out to folks like Bitwise, frankly. And so, yes. So when, to Matt's point, when he's got a slide that he doesn't like, he knows why he doesn't like it. Because the audience is like, oh, boy, I wish this was similar. It's just like what we were talking about. It's like the complications of this industry and this sector have kept,

it have been a giant hurdle for people that they don't want to go over. And so making it easy and combining one thing that y'all are talking about that's really fascinating to me. And just from an economic outcome perspective and modeling perspective, if you're able to combine through ETS exposure to real world businesses that have, tremendous cash flow, for example, or tremendous IP, value off-chain, real-world value. And then you're able to combine the upside of exposure to pretty much a broad array of emerging technologies on the blockchain side. You're getting this risk reduction mechanism as a part of the whole that is really difficult to manage in a segregated way. Like it's incredibly difficult.

The rebalancing effort would have to happen daily. You're not talking about the 2% of the 8% at that time. You're talking about 98% of your time. Just because why? Well, because all those assets are so volatile, the risk-reward ratio changes every day meaningfully. And so therefore your allocations should be reflecting those changes. And yet no one does that.

This is the vehicle to make that. I mean, it's just like incredibly simple and get massive broad exposure. across our entire space. And if you look back at like the ICO craze in, you know, 2017, for example, the best people, the people that made the most money just had a little bit of money in everything. And they just waited, waited until the ping pong ball bounced and they cashed out. And that's essentially what this is going to allow you to do. But at the same time, de-risk the entire effort.

I mean, that's pretty amazing. Yeah, yeah, I've well said. Yeah, I want to talk moving on just slightly to the, the sort of regulatory clarity environment. Whatever. I don't even think we have to talk about the Clarity Act. Because it's not a real thing. That's just my very humble opinion.

Sorry. Did you guys see that Eleanor Territ was like quoted as saying that they were very close to a deal? And she was like, I never said that. And it was like massive news that we were all getting at the Coinbase. All Graywall had said 48 hours. He's like, I didn't say that. I mean, now we're just making stuff up. That's amazing.

Either way, the thing we're not making up is that we actually have an SEC and CFDC that are trying to do things, right? And Matt, you were, I think, the first really to point out the fact that regardless of what happens in the elections, regardless of what happens with legislation, we got a still three years here of pro-crypto regulation, and we can effectively take that time to show that we matter and become too big to fails in industry. But here he's floating reg crypto for fundraising. And this is like really one of the things we've been looking for a lot of clarity on, basically saying how can you raise money for a crypto company, for a token, how can you do an ICO, things that you would have never obviously heard under the Gensler era. And he's saying that we're getting close to a proposal for how this would be done. So I mean, maybe just shifting to some positivity here, regardless of what's happening on the legislative side,

it seems like we're going to get a lot more clarity from the regulators. And that's going to continue to be a trend for years to come. Yeah, I mean, imagine this headline four years ago. The market would have been, you know, God candle to the upside. This is an incredible thing. And we do have this unique three-year window to really prove that crypto matters. I think it's going to, actually, I think there's an opportunity for people who are following this because I think people have such bad memories of the worst parts of the ICO effort

And such bad memories from that era of crypto that I bet they will be skeptical of these new efforts under this reg crypto offering. But I think the reason those were such failures was there wasn't the right regulatory standard to get them into it. The idea of raising capital for a new token project or raising tokens that actually sort of act almost like equities and have real claims on cash flow are good ideas. And I think we're going to see a big flowering of those ideas under Atkins, sort of regardless of what happens to the Clarity Act. Yeah. And it seems like the CFTC won't get in their way, which would have also been an issue before, right? We would have had this turf war between the SEC and the CFTC, and they're actually working together here for what seems like very rational, obvious. Yeah.

We should actually know how you're allowed to raise money. still one of my favorite news stories was how shocked people were that the SEC and the CFTC were talking to one another. It just tells you how backward our regulatory environment was that that was like that was news that they might collaborate on regulating their financial. It's unbelievable. But yeah, I do think we're going to look, Atkins comes from a token background, right? He was on the token sub-task force of, I forget, the digital. chamber or something. But that is his background. So this is something he wants to do. It's clearly going to happen. And I think you're going to see a flowering of amazing

entrepreneurial ideas. I'm pretty excited about it. Well, four years ago, by the way, that headline was just the mean that if you did anything in crypto, straight to jail. Straight to jail. It's quite literally a hundred degree. It's like Mr. Hart. No, no, no, no. Right. So, yeah, you know, something that's come that far. to the other side is we're actively working on, you know, creating, you know, frameworks that have to do with tokens and token launches and all of that stuff is really, really, really good. And, you know, generally speaking, in the world of politics slash, you know, regulatory stuff, three years is a lifetime. And so you get yourself, if they're able to do this at that level,

and it takes hold. And then some level of scale is built around that. It's very difficult to roll that back. It's hard to roll that back. Clarity or no clarity, when you've got meaningful stuff that has been built and everyday people are using it for good things, it's tough to say, well, let's just throw all of that in the trash.

So it may be able to stand the test of, you know, you know, changes in Washington, changes in regimes, at least that's the hope. So I'm glad they're getting after it and doing it, you know, quickly. Well, they have to. I would argue that with, in the last six months, what's happened in AI has accelerated software development at a rate that we could have never hoped or guessed. It's commoditized something that used to be the massive bottleneck of every company is like how do we develop this, how do we test it properly before we roll it out? Software development now is an overnight process, literally, and testing it is having 15 agents test it and back to, like it's completely changed the game.

So if you think about like just from a macro perspective that regulators have had a hard time keeping up with innovation in our space without that, you're not putting this cat back in the bag. But in three years from now, you're going to see more software written and more use cases come to market and more people using those use cases than we've seen in the last 17 years of crypto by a long shot. I mean, just by an absolute. Yeah, and the irony is that like regulation and legislation aren't going to stop that anyways, as we saw with crypto.

Like, you know, it's like water flowing. It's going to find the cracks and it's going to continue on. I mean, I vibe coded a website in five minutes as a joke. I was like, I need a new website and I said it to our little open-cloth agent. Knowing what you know about me, make a website. Zero information. I mean, I haven't launched it yet, but it literally made me a website that would have cost like 20 grand. Yeah, yeah.

Six months ago. And, you know, five more like, I know nothing about anything. Change this number, change this. I had a website, literally in less than an hour and was doing it past. massively on the side. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is probably the alt season that everyone's waiting for. It's the combination of AI capabilities and this new token framework is probably

the actual old season of 2026. So how do we invest it? Clip that because that's the headline on the show. I miss that one. I don't miss that one. Yeah, it's. It used to be where I get stuck, though, is like, how do the people who've been here for so long believing in it, okay, you just buy Bitcoin. I get it. But like the people who really

deeply believed in these alcoids are bagholders, you know, are hoping they'll go up. How do we participate in this becomes the underlying, you know, technology of the institutional, you know, like I don't know how I profit from the DTCC tokenizing things. It's cool. I'm not sure you will, but I often think alpha exists in the gap between reality and expectations and particularly in this situation to go back to what I said, I think people are going to be more skeptical than they should be about some of these new experiments and they're going to dismiss them because of historical bias. And if there is an opportunity in this space, it's to evaluate them rationally in a new regulatory framework. Like I think you're going to see ideas that failed in the

past be retried and be interesting. Not every idea, right? Like maybe not Uber for crypto. But if you do like, you know, I could think of a lot of sort of failed experiments. I don't know, music, et cetera. You're going to see all those reattempted again. And I do think there will be opportunities between sort of people historically dismissing them and this new reality. That'll be pretty interesting. It reminds me very similarly to when, you know, torrents were popular and people were, you know, taking music and movies for, free offline and downloading libraries of them.

And it was all illegal, right? And it was an unregulated market, but the technology was so good that all the big players took notice and said, we have to move to this. And what they do, they fought Napster, they fought lime wire, they fought BitTorrent, they fought all of those competitors that had the competitive advantage of being first market movers. And then they launched iTunes.

and Amazon streaming and YouTube TV, and that is the same exact industry, but one being unregulated and unsupported by Wall Street and one being regulated and supported by Wall Street. And we're seeing that shift take place right before our eyes. And, you know, the alpha to me is betting on the second fiddle. It's easy to see the utility in something like, hyperliquid and then you go how do i make money on investing in hyperliquid well you just look at their

framework and then you look at real world brands that are coming to market i'll give you a good example of this it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why mr beast and the ethereum gang are getting arm in arm like that doesn't take a genius to figure out that's the intersection of real world brand and blockchain technology at its finest we've never seen those types of collaborations before at scale. So, you know, I think there's, there's going to be really clear opportunities as you see this technology be integrated and adopted. I don't know. I kind of think Scott's the Mr. Beast of crypto. If I had to, you know, if we were, I can see Scott doing a video where he's carrying the bags

of money and then it's more money and then it's more money, you know, running with the bag of money. You can pull that off. You can pull that off. I got tears. From my lips I got tears. I will have the only daily crypto show on mainstream media. I heard that was luck, though.

That's what I saw. Actually, though, I found out that the producer's dad watches this show and told him that this is who they needed, which is crazy. I thought I had all these, like, great ideas of how it came about. It's like my dad watches you. Yeah.

Our public can confirm that your audience is very dad-like. Let's put it in a way. They drink a lot of lo-croy. I'll say that. You got pop a moose back, though. I almost fired everybody over that lemon cello I was drinking last week. Pledge. Absolutely pledge.

I mean, Matt, listen, anything else we're missing before I let you go. I mean, what do you, you know, as you've kind of alluded to, There's no bare market when you're having your conversation, which I think is very encouraging. But is there anything else that people are talking about? Questions you're getting that we may have missed. Questions we're getting. We do get some questions about quantum. We get some questions about the L1 space and whether they'll be able to really accrue value in that space.

But broadly speaking, yeah, people just now have these two narratives. They have Bitcoin. They have ETH, Solana, other sort of stable coin and tokenization plays. They're going to invest in those. I think the more we actually see those perform a little bit differently in the market, the more that will continue. So if you want to see if that's happening, but look, we're pretty bullish for the end of the year. I think we're doing okay, given the geopolitical turmoil out there,

the fact that we're just sort of hovering is fine with me. Yeah, I'll take it. That's a win. we're going to be just fine now you say it everything's going to be okay everything will be okay thank you for joining us at 6 o'clock in the morning

I hope we have a wonderful day I can't imagine it getting any better than this but it's a good way to start it good to see you guys good to see Matt So what do you guys want to talk about? The Clarity Act. I'll say this.

Have you guys changed your odds ratio of it actually passing? The one thing I will say that I keep coming back to zero. Yeah, higher than zero. Well, here's the thing. I just think I think I may have in my equation of prediction underestimated how badly the banks need it. And so if you go back to that central. you know, they're the ones that really want this. And then you say, okay, it looks like Coinbase just got awarded

or is in the process of being awarded Fed access at the Fed window? They've been given a... Trust bank, charter? Yeah, trust. Yeah, well, that's Fed access. And so my point is, is like, I see some compromise in the real story and the fact that, yeah, maybe USDA is the thing that Coinbase is going to have to fall on, the sword that they're going to have to fall on, and it's not going to be included as something that can provide yield.

They may be willing to swallow that if they get to be a big bank and they get to be up at the table, and whether they're giving yield on USDA or whether they're giving yield on deposits, if they're a bank, who cares? They can still disrupt the market as somebody who's giving disproportionately back to the deposit. right? They can still do exactly what they're trying to do. But, you know, I know there's a lot more sticky points in its passing, but it seems like there's concessions being made on that fraud and or compromise being made, and it made me my ears perk up and kind of take us pause and say, you know, what are the odds of this thing actually getting pushed through? I'd love to hear y'all's opinion about that.

Zero. Yeah. We're doing wars right now, guys. True. We are doing mores right now. I will say clarity or no clarity, the fact that, you know, crypto exchanges are looking more and more like banks anyway. You know,

Kraken has a Fed master account. Cracken, right? It's one thing to say Coinbase and getting approval for a, you know, a trust setup that's, that's kind of a bank, but it's not, they can't take deposits as a bank.

But listen, they're going to do the trust thing, then they'll do the next step. the next step, the next step. You know, three years from now, all the major crypto exchanges here in the U.S. will be basically banks, and then all the banks will offer most crypto stuff anyways. So it'll just be all kind of one thing. So, you know, kind of to what we were talking about before, if that's happening anyways,

and by the way, that happens at the regulatory, you know, level, right? They're granted these things from regulatory. bodies. What do we need the Clarity Act for anyways? It all effectively is just going to happen. So we'll see. But is there a world where because Coinbase feels like, all right, if we play a little bit of ball here, we'll get the next two steps that we want to get from a banking standpoint, like in the in the back room of this negotiation, hey, we promise we'll give that to you guys. if you guys just give a little bit here. I mean, that's how stuff gets done anyways.

That wouldn't necessarily surprise me. Coinbase has to weigh how much do we really want to piss off, you know, the true kind of crypto people because they'll see right through that. Again, it's frankly, it continues to be just a bit of a mess. There's something in my gut that says it's going to get ramrodded. I don't know why. I feel something in the wind. We'll see.

Well, one way it could get ramrodded. it is like the Trump administration just needs a win of some sort. Like they just keep... Kind of what I mean, man. Like, I'm just saying there's a lot of things getting ramrodded these days. This could be one of them. I don't know. We'll see.

I don't know. Scott, it's Mr. Beast's crypto kick right now. I'm so stuck out here getting ramrodded. I knew you'd go there. I was waiting for it. I haven't got it out at 9 a.m. before that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about our public.

I think we should. I think we should. Look at a website, man. And that's it. You know what we didn't do? We didn't create it out of nothing with some sort of funny-looking Claude thing that you're talking about. We actually worked on this. We got real humans working on this website. And I will say it's a lot cleaner. I like it much better than the last one. Like Matt was talking about, simplicity is good as it relates to delivery. And, you know, we're trying to make this process as simple as possible for everyone. It used to be in days of old automation. No one understood it. No one could get their hands on it.

No one understood the value proposition. It was a black box. You know, obviously we've taken it upon ourselves to change that and to educate people as to what the primary a use case for automation is, which is to alleviate time constraints and the convenience of having your will monitoring the market at all times, especially with 24-7, 365 markets, that becomes imperative. And then removing the emotion, because most of the time when you're interacting with the markets, it's a highly emotional endeavor. And a lot of people don't have the stomach for it and don't have the time for it. And so, you know, when you start to just build the foundation

around those two principles and you start to then see the flexibility of the software and how you can program it to do whatever you want it to do in the market. It opens you up to this infinite possibility of really building a very detailed, very complicated strategy, but doing it very simply with just drag and drop click buttons. And then watching that execute on your behalf is one of the most intoxicating feelings. I won't ever forget the first time I saw it because, you know, having a proverbial robot in the market for you acting on your behalf and listening to whatever, you know, commands you give it, it is something very unique that most people haven't experienced before. And so we want that education for everyone. We have over 20,000 people

that are using the software suite. 700 of them, we would call concierge customers roughly. So you're welcome to come and use the software, to my point, is free to use. 20,000 plus people are using it for absolutely no cost. And that is something that I think is incredibly important as it relates to onboarding people into the crypto space, is making it easy and giving them things that they understand and know how to use.

And so I urge you if you haven't used these types of tools before to check them out and come to our site, schedule a demo, get with one of our sales guys because they are incredibly talented at the software. All of them were previous customers or the vast majority of them were. So they know the software kind of in and out and they love helping people set it up and learning about your individual story. So that's really where our passion lies. And we're just seeing with the continued rise in awareness of crypto and also just the treasury management aspect of corporations and treasury companies that need these types of tools, it's just very refreshing to be able to deliver something that has such recognizable value and you get so much goodwill built with your customers. So we're very thankful, very appreciative of all the people that have taken the time to, you know, trust. us with their time and we're glad that they see value in it. So if you're interested in it, please come and check us out.

We'd love to get you started and teach you all about it. The best way to get started to is, again, use the pre-product. Put $800 into your Coinbase account and do a couple of setups on our website and set those setups to buy $50 worth of Bitcoin. in our arbitrage algorithm and just watch it work. You don't have to have five grand or 10 grand or 50 grand or 100 grand to run this thing. Put $800 in your account and then watch it do its thing. And then you'll be convinced when it does its thing at 2.30 in the morning when it's impossible for you to be involved at that point. And you're not putting meaningful capital at risk.

You're just learning how to use something that everybody is going to have to use two to three years from now when all markets are 24-7, when a movement in Tesla or Nvidia in your portfolio does something meaningful at 2.30 in the morning, I don't care who you are or who your advisor is or what company you've got assets with. They don't have humans. They're going to have humans sitting there at 2.30 in the morning. So familiarize yourself with this technology. We've been doing it for a long time. And yeah, not only that, though, be on Beyond the algorithmic automated version of everything that we do, we have wonderful people.

Like Tillman said, there are wonderful people available to you to talk about what it is that you're watching, what it is that you're seeing, the why, the how, the when, and the what. And I think the best commercial for arch public is the fact that six months ago, Scott started out with 50 grand in his account. And he's more than 10xed that amount into his account based on what he's watched these. tools do and that there's not much more can be said can't stop buying stuff i will say like you know like we've all you know learned over our careers you do make your money in in the trenches right when you when everybody else is running especially retail and you look at those opportunities that we've all been around to see remember when bitcoin

crashed to like 3 300 bucks or 3 500 bucks and everyone said it is absolutely dead like it's going to zero. And then, you know, so it's one of those things where you're really buying a risk reward ratio at every entry point. And that is ever-changing. So you need management tools. You need to manage the risk of volatility. And doing it in a prudent way whereby which you're never over-allocating and you're not

doing it predicated on emotion and you're not doing it based upon your availability. All those things lead to a better. outcome than if you were a slave to those, you know, variables. And so, you know, the most, the biggest compliment I ever get is you've given me time back. You've given me 15 hours of my week back. That's actually something that was said to me last week. And, you know, that, that is what it's for, is to reduce complication of life. It's like what Matt was saying, if we can bundle these assets and make it easy for people to get exposure, broad exposure, where it's the risk of volatility is muted,

we have a lot more participants than if we don't. And so that's what this is about, is bringing in participants and giving them a good taste in their mouth when they arrive and showing them that it's not all pump-dop fun and these crazy things. There's real legitimate infrastructure being built. And to that end, I mean, we work with all of the major exchanges.

So if you want to, if you have a Robin Hood account, if you have a Coinbase account, a Cracken account, a Gemini account, any of those, you know, and even more, you can hook our software up inside of your brokerage account and run whatever algos that you would like to run or schedules that you'd like to run within your existing account. So you manage it, you turn it on, you turn it off, completely user-driven, and increasingly, increasingly, you're going. easy to use from an interface perspective. So we're really, we're focusing on making it that for people. It's the best. Well, thanks. I use it every day because I don't have to use it, you know? That's right. That's exactly right. Yep. We said it and forget it and life continues on. So for guys, for those of you who could live me under rock, here it is at archpublic.com. You can check it out there. By the way, I just have one thing that I was dying at my news team. I don't know, obviously we've had the quantum debate,

and I heard Matt Hogan bring it up, and Dave Weisberger was very passionately talking yesterday about how he thinks that that's what's suppressing price. And then there was this debate over, you know, quantum Bitcoin mining, not just the signatures. And then this paper came out from these guys, BTQ. BTQ Technologies publishes research showing quantum Bitcoin mining were require 10 to the 23rd qubits and more power than a star at current difficulty. So Bitcoin, quantum Bitcoin mining is a complete non-starter for those. This is about signatures and there's companies like this and others that are obviously working on post-quant quantum cryptography and securing the wallets.

But this basically is like you need more power than the sun to do this. Like what are we doing here? I'm not saying it's not a threat to the old wallet. But like, I think that this study at Cornell University, maybe we went a little too far. Maybe we were a little. Listen, I said a couple days ago, and, you know, heaven forbid, I heard anybody's feelings. But, you know, I just, I like to listen to guys like Adam back on this.

You know, he's measured and also he's doing something about it. And he's probably forgotten more about Bitcoin and Crypto than most people actually know. So just kind of stick it there. You know, yes, we're working on it. Yes, we, you know, let's make sure that we've got it covered. But at the same time, like, come on, relax everybody. We're long ways away from the, you know, Adam has said, whether it's in a direct post or a reply, we're decades away from this stuff.

And to the point of that, and Tillman can speak to this a little bit more eloquently, like the amount of power and the amount of just actual space you would have to have to have those types of computers working on for some reason this small little asset called Bitcoin versus a bunch of other stuff. I don't know. It doesn't seem to make sense. People don't understand what role Bitcoin mining plays in the electrical grid and the infrastructure. But let me explain it. It's the only thing that will use power whenever it's available, especially when other things don't want it. What do I mean by that? There's this thing called on-demand, like power.

and the demand that we see on our grid, you know, varies throughout the day. So, you know, when everybody's getting up in the morning and heading to work at, you know, 8 o'clock, you see a ton of usage of power. Why? Because everybody's, you know, opening their refrigerators, making breakfast, blowing drying their hair, this massive spike. So the power companies have to generate power based upon peak demand, based upon how much demand they have to serve at any given point during the day.

So they have to over-generate. at all times because you're never at peak demand for very long. It's just these short blips. So what do you do with the overgenerated power that you're not using in the grid? Well, it bleeds off into the atmosphere, guys. It's impossible to store that energy. You can't put batteries in a building, stack them to the roof and make it a Walmart distribution center-sized battery. We don't have battery technology that's good enough to store power. That's the truth. There's a limiting function there. Solid state batteries may come around and change that, but we're not there yet, is the point. And so when you generate power at peak demand levels all the time, and you're

using power down here, there's this delta of power that could be applied to something useful. So the argument is that through economic incentive, everyone that's in the Bitcoin space has already found that power, because that's the cheapest power for them to operate on, which is a natural incentive for them to find it. And you can find, you can look all over the world, and the number one reason why a Bitcoin mining place exists is because they found cheap power. That's literally the number one variable that they look for. And so it's a misnomer to say that Bitcoin's using all this power. No, we're not using it and Bitcoin's putting it to use. It would be no different than if I saw an oil well out in West Texas that had a massive flare-off gas component. And they just built this massive tower.

And every night I drive by there and they're just lighting the sky up with natural gas burn off. Well, why are they burning the natural gas? Well, because they're not there for natural gas. they're there for the oil. And they don't want to mess up the oil flow because that's where all the money is in the well. The gas is just a byproduct of the oil production. They don't want it, they don't need it, and guess what?

It's equally hard to store natural gas. It's like electricity. You can't, unless you have a pipeline to hook it up to, what do we do with all this gas that's coming out of the pipe? Well, that's where flare-offs happens. They just light it on fire and burn it into the atmosphere. So you can put a co-gen plant on that flare-off gas. you can take that natural gas, pipe it into a generator, light it on fire under, you know, combustion,

and generate power, and then sell that power back to the grid so that the grid has more on-demand power generation at any given point in time so that they can produce more power in the power plant and equal. And so all these things are happening. But Bitcoin is solving these problems, guys. It's literally the neutral party in this equation that goes, hey, we just want cheap power. In fact, if you can give us free bleed off power, we'll only use that. You see what I'm saying? So, you know, I don't see it as a problem, but number one. Number two, quantum computing is a total hoax.

The amount of power that it uses is more than a Bitcoin. Like, are you kidding me? You have to keep a quantum computer at absolute zero for it to function. You know how much power? I mean, go look at what CERN is doing and look at how much power they're using to keep things at zero and collide out of it. Like, it's a, again, the base, you know,

value of proof of work, which is Bitcoin at this point, is the fact that it always takes more power to break it, more money to break it than gold that's in the vault. More than what it to do. That's not worth it, exactly. So many things while you were talking. A, I don't, the moon doesn't exist. I've been told that on Twitter of late.

Not even that we didn't go there. It doesn't exist. I don't know. Two is that CERN broke the world in 2020 during COVID and we're actually living in a parallel. That was you, right, John? That was him. And then when you were doing this thing,

all I could think it was Ricky Bobby. Thank you, Bobby. What do I do with my hands? But you said, but that's what I heard. But apparently we don't even live in the same universe anymore. Well, I'm, again, I'm old enough to remember that there's a lot of academic papers that have been written that have not been worth ultimately the paper they've been written on. I mean, you can create an academic paper about the fact that the moon doesn't exist. And when it comes out, and there's a bunch of signatures, and it's from, you know, Cornell slash Google.

And I'm like, well, it must be some smart people there. But it, but then, you know, three years later, you go back and read it, and it looks absolutely ridiculous. By the way, has anybody watched the movie an inconvenient truth lately? That actually plays as a comedy now based on the claims that they made about where we'd be today. So, you know, again, it falls under the heading of thou protested too much on the whole quantum thing. It really, really does. Well, it just lets you, it tells us something about ourselves, which is that fear really is sells. Fear will is the driver for everything.

And, you know, to think that Bitcoin has survived in this pure state for 17 years and that there's a bogey-year, man that could disrupt that. That's a pretty fear-inducing narrative that it doesn't surprise me that people kind of latched onto that. That's why price is down. Then hold on to your asses when it comes back. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. I never know what to do with my hands. It's like the old days. Once all bets are off at 10 o'clock, guys. If we run over, I do whatever I want. Listen, I think that, you know, that big studio change that you did, I think it did. your game because you're so childish on so many fronts that that brings you to into this quasi like you know if if I just screenshot this right now I look like I'm on CNBC but if

you actually watch the show it's like Sesame Street so we're here I'm feld yeah yeah you know and it's me Murphy Raw basically Citizen Kane, you know? Vandalay Industries. Vandalayan. We've got like the whole third. Oh yeah.

Hacked twice today. And it's like the big thing. And then we've got the part in your part in the interruption stories going down the sides like that. Ooh. I like it. Like dude, we're going to be producing. Yeah. I love it.

I love it. I believe it. But I'm still going to talk like this. It's going to be. I don't even. really work here. That's what makes you so hard. That's what makes us so hard.

I know that it's good, guys. It's Seinfeld and Kramer, by the way. What are you got in that briefings? And he walks out. Is it like 11 o'clock? How late have we gone over? We're done. Check out Archpublic. It's been great. I've had a great time. You've had a great time. Just remember that if you want to mine Bitcoin, you're going to need computing more powerful.