The Wolf Of All Streets - Market Analysis + Celebrity Memecoins w/ @MANTRA_chain | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

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Mario, apparently there's no floor left. Do you know what that means? I changed the title because I didn't know what the title meant. It said there was no floor left. It's over. We're going to zero. I didn't really understand it. So I changed it to Wild Price Action Friday by this dip because that's what Dave and I were talking about on Macro Monday this morning. you guys weren't paying attention on monday we i mean on friday we had this kind of crazy day where the jobs report came in and people interpreted as good which means the interest rates won't get cut which means that you have to sell everything and then they dug in and realized it was a poor jobs report price went back up and we ended up getting one of these darth maul candle type days so i think that's worth unpacking sort of as we come into monday here um my opinions were just generally sideways, but I would love other people's opinion. I mean, Dave, we talked about it a bit this morning. The job report was kind of nonsensical. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, you lose over

600,000 full-time jobs. You gain half the part-time jobs and as you gain more jobs than, I don't know, I can't, it's, I guess, you know, the old expression, the new math, you know, I guess the guys at the BLS are just smarter than me. They can do math in a way that I can't. I just don't see how you lose that number of full-time jobs and it's anything other than an absolute epic disaster. And at the same time, unemployment ticked up actually from 3.9 to 4%. So even though we though we added, quote unquote, 275,000 jobs on the expectation of 185, as you said, they were largely part time and unemployment's up. Confusing. Very confusing. I mean, I don't know if any of the rest of you unpacked that at all.

But it seems like the market is now just figuring out what that means and how to digest that. And brings us into Monday, you know, Bitcoin sort of trading around 69,000. Right before that report, it was already up to 72 and 73. And we were talking about new all time highs, right? Kind of leads back to my opinion that we're just going to chop sideways for quite a long time here before we either get another catalyst or just hit that part of the having cycle where we can continue to go up. Andrew, were you surprised at all about what happened there on the jobs report, what we're seeing now? No, I mean, the jobs report stuff is... Is Andrew speaking or can't hear? He is. Sometimes you can't hear. Who said...

We'll bring you back up in one moment. We'll go to Dave in the meantime. Dave, it's a pleasure to see you in Austin. I'd love to get your comments on what Scott was talking about. Just a general overview on the markets and the kind of volatility we saw in the last few days, or not last few days, on Friday. Well, Friday, the big story, which also needs to be talked about, was Roaring Kitty.

I actually am in the car, so I can't see where GME is trading today. But, I mean, the viewership numbers that I saw were ridiculous. The volatility in a two and a half, three day period in a national market system stock is more than anything you see in cryptos of a tenth the size uh so you know i thought that was fascinating as well and just talking about roaring kitty in that effect and panos i think you're back up now so you can get your uh you actually i've got a panos before getting into

what we can kind of get your thoughts on that babe and you were speaking earlier panos i couldn't yeah i mean the fact that Bitcoin is trading and consolidating above the previous cycle's all-time high, which was just above 69K, to me is bullish. Like, we're post-halving now. I don't really understand the jobs situation and why that affected Bitcoin, but I haven't really looked into it too much. But I think that the fact that it is consolidating where we are is bullish.

And I think it's going to be a continuation upwards from here. I don't think we're going to go. Can you give us your bios? I've experienced more bear markets than most of you. I've witnessed more ones. So look at previous cycles and look at what we're seeing right now, can you just give us the

two likelihoods? We break the all-time highs. We start hitting new all-time highs. The bull run continues. We see a major correction. Can I explain both scenarios and what could lead to each one? That would be a good way to look at what could happen next

and getting Dave to answer that same question. Yeah, I mean, for Bitcoin to have a big correction here, I think it would have to be some kind of fundamental news. I mean, it could be geopolitical. I don't see there being a reason why we would sell off from here we've had quite a big sell-off from the 74k area we went down to about 40k 38k and we've been climbing back up again and I don't think we're just going to shoot up from here I do think it's going to be sideways for a bit but I like I'm liking the fact that we are still above the previous cycles all-time high we

haven't gone below that um if we'd gone below that i would probably say yeah there's probably going to be a bit more of a set-off still but i i personally think that it's just going to go sideways here consolidate for a bit and then and then start moving up again um i i just don't see anything in the news right now fundamentally that could really like destroy the price of bitcoin yeah dave would love to get your thoughts on the same question well i it's it's actually funny so when you study economics you study supply demand curves and and this may sound obscure but let me get to the point the point is that in previous having cycles you've seen fairly significant corrections in Bitcoin post-halving and then a significant rally after the mining pool adjusts, etc., etc.

The mining pool has adjusted. It had its dip. It seems to be on a very solid footing. It's obviously four times higher than it was at the last all-time high. So on a network-adjusted basis, Bitcoin price is lower, but it is well lower. But let's not go there. Ask yourself the question, if 5% of Bitcoin supply had been dumped on the market right post halving, where would the price be? And the answer is the price would probably be somewhere between the 40s. That'd be my guess. Just randomly, maybe 50s, but 40s. Except for that actually did happen and the price didn't do anything. It's actually gone slightly higher or recovered. Now, why? Well, it's because an entirely new source of demand has entered the market. 5% of Bitcoin supply is now sitting in the Bitcoin ETFs, which are held by people who, for the most part, had no previous way of owning Bitcoin. So we've broadened the base of ownership of the asset, which is exactly what needs to happen for

it to spring to new all-time highs. Only we've had the normal post-having correction. It just hasn't happened in price. It just hasn't happened in price. It hasn't happened in price because the demand curve has shifted higher. So I think that that's why this cycle is playing out differently than other cycles. And so assuming no global macro disaster, such as a stock market crash or et cetera, I think we are primed for a big cycle later this year as people come to terms with that. But just think about it. Five percent of Bitcoin have shifted from the marginal traders to more long-term holders.

That's a very big number, Mario. And I think a lot of what's gone on has to take that into account. So, David, part of what I'm going to go to Andrew after. Just look at the inflows. And yesterday's inflows, again, another really strong day. So, yesterday's inflows at $331 million total net inflows. And then outflows at Grayscale, again, pitiful. The outflows are pretty much over $36 million.

BlackRock had $160 million. How is that possible? No, total net inflows of Bitcoincoins probably just was 131 million, but it says iBit had a single day inflow of 168 million. So again, if someone can get me the right numbers would be good, but look at the inflows there. It was having strong for a while now after we saw a period, a short period of outflows. Does that change your predictions, your outlook for the next year, Dave? And then kind of give us your time predictions as well. When do you expect us to start breaking all-time highs?

And what numbers do you expect us to hit in this bull run, this cycle? And then, Pat, I have the same question to you. I'm notoriously bad on timing and notoriously accurate on long-term predictions. So my best guess is sometime, you know, who knows when, but at some point the natural post-having selling from people in the crypto crowd rotating into alts or doing whatever they're doing, I mean, I don't know, it's a complex market. At some point that slows down. When that slows down, if the demand continues

to come from more and more RIAs, more and more fund systems, etc., then you could see a resumption of a rally. Understand, this is all in the backdrop of a situation where stock markets worldwide are stretched in terms of percentage of value to GDP. And we're seeing significant speculative excesses throughout every market. I just came back from Las Vegas. And I can tell you the World Series of Poker is jammed. And this is the early weeks of the World Series of Poker. It was jammed. And they're predicting their biggest year ever, which is no different than Roaring Kitty and GME. You know, seeing all the interest in meme stocks is no different than we're seeing in meme coins. The fact is, there's a lot of money sloshing around and all of it's chasing hot money. So you have to keep that as a backdrop for any prediction. But,

you know, from my perspective, I told you, I think that this cycle ends. I know it sounds hyperbolic. I apologize. But I come the legal perspective, anything worth noting over the last few days. And then a bit of back and forth with one of my favorite people, Robbie's back with us here. So I'll talk about meme coins and the investment thesis, whether it shifted, because you know, got a lot of these VC backed projects not doing as well as usual. We've got Binance putting out a paper on the structure of token launches. And obviously a lot of that speculative mania has moved away from ideals and ios to meme coins so we get to get robbie's thoughts on that um so so panos mike is your yeah i mean there's a few things happening in the world right now like here in canada um where i'm currently living they just lowered interest rates and i think they've done it in

europe somewhere as well recently and this is like the first in canada's first time in like four three or four years of lower the interest rate. So I, I, I think there's going to be some extra money around. There's going to be a bit more risk on, and I, it's an election year as well coming up.

So I, as far as timing goes, I think we're probably in the next couple of months, we'll probably be at all-time highs again. And as far as that euphoria stage. You think we'll hit those numbers in a couple of months? We'll hit a little break in the 75th? I think so, yeah.

I think in the next couple of months, maybe, you know, August time, could even be September. It could stretch a little bit further but i i mean we we almost got there recently we went to 71k recently and then after that jobs report come out we we had a sell-off um so i i think in the next couple months two three months will probably be above um the recent all-time high and then as far as like euphoria stage you're probably 2025 i would say where i do see i mean potentially bitcoin could go into like above 200k i do think that's possible just going by if you look at previous all-time highs of markets and then the the following

bull market what that all-time high is there. And you kind of look at that difference and kind of apply it to this. You know, 240, it could go to potentially. It doesn't mean it will, but I think it has potential to go into the 200s. Yeah, Andrew, I'm going to get your thoughts on the discussion so far, but also kind of digging into what to expect with the ECTFS in a minute. I'm not sure when that's launching. But we're seeing a prediction, we've got a prediction here

that the inflows of the Bitcoin ETF could catch up to 20% of Bitcoin ETF flows, according to analysts. Yeah, I'll cover a few topics here. It should be noted that the inflows for the Bitcoin ETFs last week were substantial and robust. And it's my belief that a couple months from now, when the 13Fs come out associated with some of those inflows, you're going to see some new and bigger names.

Just a reminder, we talked about 13Fs and some of the allocations for, you know, sizable funds, you know, in the first quarter. I mean, realize that the first quarter was when the Bitcoin ETFs, you know, essentially were launched and people were barely dipping their toes into the Bitcoin ETF waters, like barely dipping their toes. So, you know, the scale of Bitcoin ETF inflows as they ramp up. And again, there's a ramp up happening literally in the middle of of sell in May and go away. I mean, it's summertime. Wall Street is borderline asleep. So seeing inflows like that, you know, my thesis is you're going to see some dipping of toes of even larger organizations and 13Fs that will happen,

you know, 30 to 45 days after the quarter closes out. As it relates to Ethereum ETFs, I think it's going to be a really slow go with S1s. That was predicted by a couple of my sources at BlackRock when the shift happened and the political shift. I've seen in some places some folks that are reasonable people saying, well, the shift in the Ethereum ETF approvals wasn't political. I think that's frankly crazy. But in terms of the actual final approval and the trading of Ethereum ETFs, I think we push into July, push past the July 4th kind of holiday for the actual final approval and trading of those products. I think it's going to be a rough, rough, rough go in the first 90 to 120 days for the trading of Ethereum ETFs, because Grayscale still exists and they've with people getting out of that product. They still have yet to announce what their fee is going to be. But as a precursor and a foreshadowing of what that fee is probably going to look like, they've already announced and are going to do also an Ethereum mini product, which means they're going to price that at 15 basis points. And that will give them cover to leave their ETH-E, their larger ETF, at an ungodly number in terms of the fees,

which means that people will get out of that product in droves. And so the question is going to be, will there be enough demand to eat up the outflows that will come from Grayscale's product. That's an unknown. I'm not sure what that's going to look like. Mike. Speak. What's your prediction? I would love to get your thoughts on the sentiment.

Because remember when we were waiting for the Bitcoin ETF launch, we started talking to investment advisors and getting an idea of what demand we should expect. Yeah. So have we spoken to should expect. Yeah. So have we spoken RIS? Yeah, the demand is going to be, it's not going to be anything near the 20% number associated with Bitcoin ETFs. I think that's, I don't think that's realistic.

It'll probably be closer to 5% to 10%. The story is very, very difficult to tell. They're still getting their arms around the Bitcoin ETF. And the Bitcoin ETFs are not completely proliferated across wealth management at this point. Most of them are still siloed. RIAs are still getting their hands around if it's even offered associated with their platform. Some of them have offered it. Some of them have not. There's still a ramp up there. So to add a cryptocurrency, another, you know, quote unquote crypto ETF for them to talk about

and to try and understand and figure out, you can imagine that the compliance and regulatory portions of those organizations are going to get slowed down even further. So, you know, bullishness associated with the Ethereum ETFs, I think there's that can be associated in price movement, you know, with the ramp up to quote unquote approval. But I think it's going to be a tough road as it relates to inflows associated with some of those dynamics that I just talked about. I do think with the Bitcoin ETFs, I think the momentum will continue. I think there's going to be big names. There's sovereign wealth funds that are finding and architecting on ramps associated with involvements in Bitcoin ETFs. Some of that stuff is going to come to light in news over the next two to three months. The upside associated with

Bitcoin and Bitcoin ETFs, there's not a meaningful downside narrative that even exists right now. I think it's interesting that over the weekend, you saw a range associated with Bitcoin that was maybe a 1% range. And that 1% range is associated with previous all-time highs. We're 5% away from another new all-time high. I think we go above 75 late August, early September. And I like Tom Lee at Fundstrat. I like his thoughts around 150K at the end of the year. The thing about Tom Lee is this. Every cycle, he's been as bullish as anybody has been,

and also very public about his bullishness, his face and his name on CNBC and all the other shows. But he's always been right. That may be a function more so about Bitcoin and its price movement and its ability to push through again and again and again in bull cycles to higher highs. But he's rarely been wrong. It's just a question of time. Probably like Dave. You know, Dave's rarely been wrong. It's just a question of time.

So, you know, bullish across the board for Bitcoin ETFs. I think that there's optimism medium and long term with Ethereum ETFs because they're going to be the second quote-unquote game in town. It's just short term. It's going to be a tough road as it relates to Grayscale. And can you give us a bearish scenario on the markets in general, Andrew? I don't. I just don't. It would have to.

It's hard to get one. It would have to it's hard to get it would have to like even even from even from from political standpoint yeah it's it's gonna happen yeah it's gonna have to be political or regulatory and those are kind of intertwined right now you know does gary gensler have a you know a couple more haymakers to throw i mean you know that he's they've already approved ethereums, which kind of moves on from that particular fight. So, you know, other than some sort of political, you know, regulatory bomb big deal a year ago, right? So things have not been tied off from a legal standpoint in the DOJ and EDNY with DCG and their organization. That's still an open investigation and an open Justice Department issue. So there could be some downside risk associated with forced selling there. But at the same time, you now have, you know, the largest institutions and banking institutions in the world with the ability to eat up any of those outflows, even if it's forced. Right. Even if there's a forced selling of Bitcoin and Ethereum for whatever reason, you know, BlackRock, Fidelity and the like, both with the Bitcoin ETF and now the approval of Ethereum ETFs, they're there to gobble that up very, very quickly.

Very hard to find downside risk here. I mean, we saw some of that on Friday with the perception of jobs, the jobs report. And again, it was it was it was tied off and cut off very, very quickly. And again, we sit at 5% from all-time highs. We get bored about talking about something like that. We get bored with the price action because that's how our human minds think. But it truly is remarkable to be ranging at previous all-time highs and 5% from current all-time highs when the last cycle at this point, 75 days out, Bitcoin had been cut in half and was on its way to 15K over the following year. That does not exist right now. Doesn't exist.

Yeah. From a legal perspective, I'll let Panos panasonic data something to add lawyer and carlo is there any up close your thoughts on the markets also your comments on any other potential black swan events that we're not paying attention to good morning mario great to finally meet you by the way in austin yeah congratulations on the new profile i'm glad you finally put an adult face on this. You see, I compromised a little bit. Yeah, look, I think I'm actually bullish on the fact that the market is choppy right now because it's predictable and it's consistent with other post-having events. I think it's an opportunity to accumulate as we wait for the eventual run-up that hopefully

is consistent with the last three cycles. So I'm not altogether worried about it. I don't think it by any means spells the end of this bull run or the end of crypto. I'm fascinated right now with what's going on with mean coins, and particularly the celebrity narrative. I think that that narrative is evolving. I dropped a pretty long thread that I'd be happy to share in the nest about my thoughts on this. Yeah, I want to hear your thoughts. And also I want to look at it as a trader or an investor, but also as a lawyer as well. We're seeing a lot of these celebrity meme coins, kind of a narrative that's getting traction right now.

We saw Iggy Azalea has done it best. We heard coins sitting at 200 million. We had – we were on a space with Donald Trump Jr. and Tate two days ago for some Trump meme coin. And we're talking to a few celebrities as well to do the same thing. So from a legal perspective, is there anything to be worried about? And get your thoughts on the whole narrative as well. There always is something to be worried about from a legal perspective because that's what we do lawyers are constantly looking and assessing threats i think it is an interesting pivot that is happening right now where originally we were seeing a lot of celebrities looking at

meme coins as a way to come into the space, realize tremendous gains, and then walk away this pump and dump narrative that's been circulating. But I think we're starting to see an evolution here, where I think a lot of a lot of what we are seeing from celebrities may still be potential pump and dumps. But for celebrities who understand the power of blockchain technology, I think of gave the analogy of a Taylor Swift token and what that could do as far as leveraging her brand and her reach. I'm fascinated to see what's happening right now with that. And it's uncharted waters. So obviously, the questions still loom, are these securities? Are these commodities? Are these something in between? And now that these things may be driven by the performance of celebrities, and how effectively they can move the needle on their

brand, that opens up a whole new conversation to get as far as whether these are investment contracts with an expectation of profits based on the efforts of others. So this is all stuff I'm looking at very closely. Yeah, and lawyer, I'd love your thoughts on that as well from a legal perspective, but also I'm looking at your thread cover and you've said something that I wanted to mention. So I'm glad we're on the same page. These are, so I can't remember who came on stage and said it on one of our shows,

but these are not meme coins. They're becoming social tokens. That's a representation of the celebrity. You get a kind of a piece of what the celebrity stands for. And in other words, so me instead of, you know, platforms like diesel and friend tech during the social so me, instead of, you know, platforms like Deeso and Frentech

doing the social tokens, you've got, you know, meme coins kind of evolving into social tokens that are most directly by the celebrity. Can you tell us more what you mean by that? Sure. So the original thesis behind meme coins is that they leverage memetics

and community engagement to drive price and interest. And it's easy to drop a meme that's viral. For example, I think you've seen the famous meme of the lady yelling at the cat. That's one example. She's leveraged that meme and turned it into a meme coin. And that's a fascinating pivot where you have, from what I can see, the first time that a celebrity who is actually the meme has now dropped a meme token based on that celebrity meme. So that's a fascinating pivot that I'm seeing. And then you see other things like what Iggy Azalea is doing with respect to dropping

her token and now representing that that token is going to be something as far as an in currency ecosystem token. It's fascinating to see how it's it's quickly evolving. So originally, these tokens were mimetically driven. Now we're seeing the tokens based on the celebrity identity. The danger of that, of course, is if the celebrity takes their foot off the gas, gets bored, gets distracted, has has negative press then that can certainly impact volume and price action you have celebrities that are prolific ship posters in this space who can drive attention then obviously that can potentially drive price so there's an interesting dynamic going on there that fascinates me yeah and i'm gonna go back to the legal risks and before we go to back and forth with Robbie and Lloyd, are you there?

Yeah, I'm here. So two questions. First, just to get your thoughts on the whole meme coin hype from a legal perspective, but also if you're a trader or if you're involved in any way, getting your thoughts on it as a trader or investor. And also getting any comments on what was previously led by Panos and Dave and Andrew. Yeah, I mean, so I think it's all like you said, there's always going to be legal problems if you're promoting something that you're implying should go up in value. And, you know, people are

going to be upset when they lose money. I think it's important to frame this as so before you add utility that actually matters that let's we can talk about that. But otherwise, it's really just crash game, right? It's like, hold on to the price long enough before eventually it goes down so yeah if there's ways to make that like a bigger and better crash game but as people start seeing the other side of that curve they'll be more guarded and they'll be um and people are going to get hurt right so if you have for example taylor swift token that goes to 10 billion dollars out of the gates, it's going to go back down. Now, let's imagine that she, you know, actually says, well, if you hold 10,000 tokens, you get to go backstage at my shows. Well, there's value there that actually has an underlying financial value, underlying financial value where you could see, you know, this thing going up and down based on it's like a membership to a club.

And, you know, there's a lot of value there and there's a lot of things that could be done. But it'll always be launched in the context of these crash game meme coins. So there's going to be a lot of that in it. It's going to be like some sort of hybrid. And then you have to ask yourself, well, are there are there problems there? And I think there are. I'm not convinced that this is like the neat way to move into crypto i think nfts like a like would be a better way and i don't see that um being adopted by which i mean like you know something that you can trade as a backstage pass rather than a fungible token that you're trying to add you know sort of shoehorn value

onto but um that being said i just want to say that I have never been more bullish on the market in general. You know, if I had billions of dollars sitting in US dollars, I would never, you know, you want to pay your bills, you know, cash is king. But if you have massive reserves, it's obvious to me that you'd be starting to scratch your head and wonder about Bitcoin, whether, you know're a big company, big individual investor, or even a sovereign wealth fund. So the price action, I'm not an economist. I would just accumulate stack stats and be excited about what's to come.

Anas? Yeah, just to touch on what Loya said. The last space we had that I was on, we were talking about meme coins. And I use the example of Taylor Swift and Kanye. If they launched a coin and actually the problem is the SEC, if they take a stance on this and decide to go after these celebrities, even if they launch in the correct way and don't fail or pass the Howie test, I don't know which way around it is, they can still go after them, which will damage the price of the token. Whether they have the grounds to go after them or they're right,

we've seen it before where they'll go after a company like they went after Ripple, said that they're a security. After three years, turns out that they weren't a security. So from a legal standpoint, I mean, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but can't the SEC just go after whoever they want, even if they're not really a security, even if they have launched things in the correct way and destroy the price of that token

or destroy that project by doing that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why you said there's legal risk. I mean, it's enormous legal risk, but to drill down into it, it's not even necessary. Like they could get in. You know, you don't have to be wrong to wish the SEC wasn't after you. But that being said, I mean, I actually predict a big push to like I don't think the SEC is going to do anything big before the election.

I actually think Trump has realized that there's 40 million people on crypto in America. And if there's one thing an American likes, it's being left alone when it comes to their money. So that's gonna be an important issue. And I don't know if Biden's gonna flip flop on it. I don't see him trying to get some of that vote because he's dug his heels in. But I also don't see them doing any of their sort of shenanigans that people can see through

because it's just not the time or the place. I actually expect Biden's got a lot more stimulatory activities up his sleeve to make people like him. And a lot of that's going to flow into crypto, I think. Yeah, I actually had a question for either Carlo or the other attorneys. No one's mentioned because it was a small monetary deal,

but it seems like a kind of a big deal to me. Ripple, not Ripple, Robinhood. And I think I should just say, because no one else is talking. Yeah, no, Dave is speaking, Lord. Yeah, I'll bring you down and back up, lawyer. Yeah, go ahead, Dave. Yeah, I kind of want him to hear this, but whatever. He's in the audience now, so he can hear you now.

He's going to be up very shortly. Okay. I'll say you need to come up, lawyer, so you can respond as well. Go ahead. When you talk about legal risk, I'm curious how the lawyers on the panel view the fact that Robinhood, who'd gotten a Wells notice for trading crypto in their affiliate that's not a broker-dealer, turning around and buying Bitstamp, which is one of the larger, well, one of the original, if not larger, exchanges in trading crypto operating in, I think, 50 jurisdictions. What does that signal? Is it basically Robinhood basically telling the SEC to pound sand? Is it the fact that Bitstamp was, maybe it was cheap because they got a Wells notice also,

we don't know about it, and they needed a big brother to help them fund their legal fees. I'm curious what people think about that. Because there's something going on there. And we don't really know. It's interesting, because you you, you can trade crypto on Robin Hood. So it begs the question, why make that pivot? One of the things that immediately came to mind is are they trying to silo their liability and their risk, they're trying to push risk off of Robinhood, which has already been on the crosshairs of regulators given what happened with the game stock pump and dumps and all the other things that happened with respect to the Wells notice and their settlement. The stock is up based on the

news. So it seems like the markets are bullish on what they're doing here. Does this mean that they're going to pivot crypto trading off of Robinhood and sort of silo it onto this other trading platform? I don't know. I don't know that that would essentially protect the company's assets. I think that that could perhaps be very easily pierced in the event of an action against their new acquisition. So I'm kind of questioning, too, what the logic is behind this, other than maybe, like you said, Dave, they see an opportunity to grow their assets and to acquire this company, which is pretty well entrenched in the industry, and maybe leverage that to grow their brand. Well, I actually, I totally see the logic from the

Robinhood perspective. Robinhood with an exchange are only a couple of pieces away from being able to form an actual competitor to Coinbase. So I totally understand Robinhood's reasoning here, because they already have the retail audience. And that's one of the things that Coinbase has leveraged incredibly well to even build out their prime and institutional products. I totally understand the Robinhood side. And frankly, it's a conversation that I'd like to have with some of the people there. But, you know, that's neither here nor there. What I'm trying to figure out is the Bitstamp side. Because, you know, it seems like they took a down round to be bought out in cash. Now, maybe they were given all sorts of earnouts and incentives that we don't know about,

or maybe their volumes are down and there's some legal risk that they're going through that we don't know that allows them to do. I mean, Brad Garlinghouse stood up in front of a conference not too long ago and said they spent $100 million defending themselves. Well, that's a lot of money right and you know if they're worried about the sec coming after them it feels like that shouldn't be the case given the events of the last three weeks but that's why i was asking this question do they do business in the united states bitstamp yes i actually have my 401k account that i set up years ago uh is with this temp so yeah yeah i know that so maybe maybe this could be like you're saying part of a broader merger and acquisition to actually give them a potential ability to compete with coinbase uh the mic is all right robbie are you there

hey yes i am hey so i've got a few questions for you. I want to dial it back to the, you know, any space that I do or we do, people are bringing up, even if it's unrelated, completely different areas, people are bringing up meme coins and how that's completely sucking up liquidity out of other asset classes. And now we're seeing that celebrity meme coin meta that Carlo brought up and we had it back and forth on. What's your personal stance on this and that of Anamoka? So I think something, you know, chatting with somebody about the other day that I thought

was a really helpful filter through which to see meme coins is if you think about it as UGC, like from a gaming perspective. So meme coins are essentially user generated content. And if you think about them as user generated content in the same way that you think of a video uploaded to YouTube, and Solana being YouTube, then essentially meme coins are just an explosion of user content. And the reason there's 20,000 new meme coins on Solana every day is the same reason that there are 20,000 new videos or probably more than that 20 million videos on youtube uploaded every day and then you start to think about it less from a sort of financial perspective its content its self-expression its attention and it has a byproduct of the fact that because it's tokenized it's possible to create

a market for these things. So it has an extra dimension to it. But I think when you think of it from that perspective, it's actually an entertainment product. But yes, I mean, to go back to your original question, it is sucking up a lot of attention. It's sucking up some liquidity. But I do think that it's tangential because if you look at what's happening in gaming, for example, I mean, I don't know if any of you have been paying attention to NotCoin, which is an idle clicker game on Ton, but it has been phenomenally successful. And they onboarded 30 million users in the space of less than a week, I think it was in total, which is a huge number of people coming into crypto. But keeping in mind

that that's only a 3% conversion rate for Telegram because they have such a huge audience. Can you tell us more about what DocCoin has been getting a lot of attention? They didn't do a VC raise though, did they? It was more of a public raise, right? No, they didn't do a VC raise at all. They just launched the token to the community because the community has so much depth

because, again, 30 million people. And the thing that's interesting about the characteristic of the community is not only is everybody in there playing games and farming tokens every day um but if you look at the not coin uh you know ticker on the on coin gecko or wherever um you'll notice something funny which is that actual daily volume exceeds fdv by like a factor of 50 so they do anywhere from two and a half to three and a half billion dollars a day of liquidity for a token that has an fdv of two and a half billion so that's an incredible amount of interest and trading activity and enthusiasm from what's a very large community and i think that's that's great what's can you

kind of say a couple of learning lessons from the not coin launch like does that mean the vc model is we've seen a lot of these vc backtalkers not doing as well as usual is that just a matter of where we are in the cycle or are we seeing a shift in how projects raise money i think it's actually an example of imagine a world in which app stores on mobile actually embraced crypto. Because what you have here is you have a platform that's got 900 million users on it on mobile, because mobile is the way most of the world accesses the internet, and giving people the ability to access a Web3 product, a tokenized product directly. And if Apple and Google decided, okay, that's fine with us,

then I think you would see a similar explosion of content and results on their app stores. But for the moment, those app stores are basically closed because they have sort of castrated so much of the functionality that's potential, that's available in Web3 games and applications that you really have to stick to

the web as opposed to native apps. And going back to the initial question of meme coins in general and celebrity meme coins, how do you guys look at celebrity meme coins? Is it just a new pump and dump for celebrities to make money as they did with NFTs? Or is that potentially, I wouldn't say a new asset class, but just another way of launching social tokens that are linked to the brand of the celebrity rather than to a meme? I think, think of it more like we think, think of it through the lens of games. So we've, I mean,

you can tell from the name of the company, we work with a lot of brands. That's our heritage in games. And so we've licensed a lot of brands over the years and created original games featuring brands. And I think that some of them work and some of them don't. And I think that some of them work and some of them don't. And I think you can think about leveraging licensed IP in the same way with meme coins, because some of the meme coins will work. Some of them will end up being well

run with good communities and lots of good, you know, utility after the fact. And some will just be pump and dumps and, you know, cut into brand equity, what brand equity a celebrity had left. So I think that it's going to be a real mixed bag, but it's not necessarily different because the content, because the product category is different from ones we've seen celebrities endorsing in the past. Yeah. I mean, I don't think at least so far,

I don't see anyone buying these things because they want to be part of the club or culturally, socially to join. It's all just chasing money, I think. I mean, we've seen this before. How many Shaq NFTs do you have to get before you realize

you're no more part of Shaq's club? I just think we've seen I don't think that the world is anywhere close to actually buying these things for their cultural and social value. Like, I think that's only in the pure memes, like Pepe and Mog and stuff like that. There, it's like, okay, I'm in crypto.

I get to wear pit vipers and post memes. And there's a fun part of, like, there's a cultural part of that. I don't think these like quick. Why don't you think you don't think, you don't think celebrity talkers could create the same community base. I haven't seen it. If you really had a celebrity that knew how to pull it off,

like one of these, like I just called it a pure meme. I think it's a good way to call it. like one of these like i just called it a pure meme i think it's a good way to call it like i i would be surprised and i'm less i think it's less likely like i don't see iggy running this if however high it goes and i don't see it going up like up forever i mean look maybe but um i you know my money would be on the the meme coins that are memes as opposed to like and then you're putting your money on something that some third party like Iggy could screw up just with one news article or whatever. I mean, it's just crash game to me. And I think it's less so with the memes that we know have survived several cycles or the ones that look like they may be like those ones.

To me, things that celebrities launch have all gone to zero in the past so i expect that for the most part and i'm you know i could be happily surprised robbie sorry um yeah no i i completely agree with that and i think it's you could find savvy celebrities who lean into this and just decide that their meme coin ownership translates into access to a private Discord server or something like that. So it all depends on how much people are going to lean into actually supporting it. But wouldn't you say the more utility you add, the less meme-ish it is? No, because the meme is just the, the meme is the advertisement to get the user in the door.

And then once they're in the door, it's your job to upsell them on other stuff. History tells us it's very bearish. Panos? Oh, go ahead. Yeah, well, because most of the time, the problem is that the celebrity has been attracted to the sector for the same reason,

which is just thinking about a pump and dump whereas like you know i think we've had noteworthy examples of celebrities who just happen to be crypto degens themselves embrace the medium and really actually lean into creating content and things like that and i mean i can name anybody name a celebrity who hasn't who people like who's gone up and then not come crashing to zero of something they've released. So I'm thinking, and this is a little self-interested because they're shareholders in our portfolio and our subsidiary. But I was going to say somebody like Deadmau5 and other electronic music DJs, for example. But they haven't launched meme coins.

They've built, they've used NFTs and other kinds of tokenization to build communities. And they also spend a lot of time nurturing those communities because they've decided that this is a medium that they like. But yes, the number of those examples is very rare because it's work. And let me go to Panos before I ask my next question. Panos? Yeah. So, I mean, I've been in crypto since like 2014 slash 15. So I've been through multiple cycles.

And every cycle, there's always a gateway drug that onboards a bunch of people. You know, back in like 2016, 17, it was ICOs. Everybody was buying money at these ICOs and all these promises. Oh, these things are going to go to the moon. And then what happens? We get to a bear market. They dump 90 plus and then most of them never ever recover then the second the cycle after that was they become but before you go to the nfts but panels sorry are they things but nfts

have become an asset class icos have become an asset class like right you say okay me and coins have already become an asset class so celebrity tokens can become an asset class i'm not saying they can't i'm just saying like if you look at nfts nfts were the gateway drug in the last cycle they got massive some of these nfts were worth millions of dollars each you had celebrities like logan paul spending millions of dollars on nfts what are they worth today now like you've got to look look at like how much they've dropped in value it might still be an asset class, but the value isn't there. No one really cares for NFTs anymore, but not the art anyway. Like it's kind of shifted more towards utility.

And then this cycle, the gateway drug is meme coins. And at the end of this cycle, most like 98% of these things are going to dump 90 90 plus and most probably won't recover next cycle you'll have the staple ones like pepe and you know maybe even dog with hat and dogecoin that always comes back like there are certain staple meme coins that will always come back at every cycle and maybe even exceed the all-time highs but for the most even if celebrity meme coins become a new asset i don't believe i believe the majority of them will just crash to near zero and not really come back i think it's hard it was hard to disagree with this one i think with every asset class every asset class for the majority will crash let me start something before going to jp robbie just another quick question

how about the the uh the vc model and i'm not sure if you saw the the letter or the cash release whatever you want to call it the binance put out but the whole high fdv low flow token launches that are vc back with unlocks kind of becoming significantly inflationary and this forcing the token just got downhill from there and there isn't enough retail buying power to sustain those high fdvs your thoughts on that matter and does that impact your investment thesis in any way? It doesn't, but I think that it's interesting that they bring it up. I think it just shows that actually

there's no one size fits all tokenomics model for projects. And it really depends on the individual project and how you've architected your token, what kind of token launch you decide to do, whether it's like a community fair launch, or you want to bring in a lot of institutions, it depends on what the product is. And you have to think through it really carefully

because there's lots of different models and not everyone is right for every kind of project. Sorry, I was muted. Cool, yeah. And we've seen kind of, again, as I said earlier, a lot of cool down on that again, as I said earlier, a lot of cool down on that VC model, the token launches, a lot of that speculative money going to meme coins. We're talking about successful projects, you know, mantras, just killing

it right now after your announcement, guys, the all-time highs and you guys are top 100 coin. Good to see you succeeding, JP. We do own a favorite mantra ourselves. I think we might've worked with you in the past or the team just bought it off the markets a while ago. So pretty happy to see you doing so well. Good to have you on the space. But first question has nothing to do with Mantra. We'd love your thoughts on the discussion in general

from the markets and that was discussed early on to obviously the meme coin hype, the celebrity tokens and the VC-backed projects not doing as well. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you having me on. We have been working together for a bit. I've been on a space not too long ago, so good to be back.

Definitely agree with what Robbie was saying. I mean, specifically coming from a project that's been around for about four years. Our circulating supply is like 90 plus in the market right now. But because we are, you know, launching an L one later this year, we're in testing at the moment, you know, our main net is coming. We're actually increasing the supply and, and offering, you know,

longer vested main net tokens to the community and having different types of incentive models for, you know, bootstrapping network security on the POS chain. So I really, you know, just align with that idea that there's no one-size-fits-all model. You really need to fit what works for you, what works for your community. Obviously, we've had some success of late, but it's been a ride. So excited to share more about what we're doing. I think from a narrative perspective, RWA is obviously one of the bigger parts of this cycle, you know, up there with these meme coins and AI and, you know, celebrity coins. So definitely a very different model than some of them. perspective of our side is like we do need to figure out ways to kind of embrace you know other

community and cultural elements in the rwa narrative game because you know obviously crypto is still a crypto native like industry and uh it's not just an institutional play when it comes to rws and that's what we're trying to solve yes so rws was a talk of town just a few months ago including in the bear market where's the narrative at? We're getting too excited a bit too early? Or is this cycle a cycle for RWAs to start having real-world utility? And maybe kind of very briefly tell the audience what real-world assets RWAs are. Yeah, so I mean, I think for us, when it pertains to RWAs,

this idea of asset tokenization has been around for a long time. It used to be called STOs and you know, just tokenization in general is, is, is a trend. It's been, I remember, I remember the JP, I remember the STO days also talk of time in 2018, when the market was crashing, I was like, STOs will, will revive it. STOs will bring in the level of equity and then, you know, Exactly. I mean, so that's what, like,

I think in this case when you're talking about like general highly regulated products, um, you're talking about, you know, click. Exactly. I mean, so that's what, like, I think in this case, when you're talking about like general highly regulated products, um, you're talking about, you know, the, the, the need for kind of regulated secondary markets, this, this problem of like finding retail liquidity hasn't really happened yet. I mean, I think people thought when we had defy summer in 2020, like maybe that could be the next thing. Um, so I think there's like merger of that STO day plus, uh, you know, DeFi plus, you know,

regulatory frameworks evolving has obviously been quite helpful, um, and getting us closer. Um, but I do think, you know, like, like in anything, uh, price action tends to front run like actual, you know, execution and delivering of anything. There's a long way to go. RWA is an asset organization for us. It's a 10-plus year game. We've been doing it for four months. Mantra is having its fourth birthday in August

of this year. I'm saying 10 from here. This is a 15-year thing for us. It's going to take a long time before it's ubiquitous. Thank you to Mantra first again. Let me look at your chart. How did it feel, Stan, to get into the 100-top 100 coin? How does it feel to take a long time before it's ubiquitous. So you think to match your first, again, like, let me, let me look at your chart. How did it feel to get into the 100 top 100 coin? How does it feel to have a token do so well?

It's a genuine personal question. That's not part of my questions. Like, honestly, it was super emotional. Um, I woke, I'm in Dubai right now. Um, but I've been traveling around a lot and legitimately woke up and was like seeing everything, getting messages. And frankly, it was just fricking crying, man. It was a, it was a really cool thing. I'm super happy for our community. I'm super happy for our token holders and our team. But it's really just the beginning for us. And, you know,

I think it's good to have like the market reward us and, and everything for the hard work. But this was like, this was, you know, the story of years of hard work, years of effort. So like, you know, obviously that coming out today was, was awesome, but it's, it's just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. So, so what was the, I'm on my phone now, so I can't check, not on my laptop. What was the price? How low did it go in 2023? 1.7 cents. So we, yeah, we.

1.7 cents. 10 or 1.7. 1.7 cents. 10 or 1.7? 1.7 cents. So now you're sitting, now you're above a dollar. That was in October of last year. 1.7 cents. Was there any moment where like, be honest JP, because obviously that ship is sailed now,

but was there ever a moment where you're like, is it really all worth it or could we close shop? No, like like honestly no that's just not how i would ever do it i mean there was moments when it could have happened um i think it's funny i was like with one of my investors and partners uh you know over the last few days and he was like listen the moment i met you like you have you know a lot of characteristics of founders that we look for you know you're hard working and you know persistent uh you know a good lot of characteristics of founders that we look for, you know, you're hardworking and, you know, persistent, uh, you know, a good leader of people, humble, et cetera. But the one thing that was like the selling point was frankly,

you're delusional. And what he meant by that was like, I will always find the one avenue of success in the midst of like 99,000 that won't work. And when you cling to that, like, Hey, we're going to do it kind of mentality.'s just uh you never doubt it oh congrats man let's go back to mantra what is an rwa l1 what does that mean like why can't rwas be built on any other one how can you have an rwa focus real world asset and blockchain i mean they can be right like they can be built on on any blockchain and we expect them to be built on multiple. We actually hope that that's the case. We're built on the Cosmos SDK.

So we have this kind of like modular structure to our chain. We use the standard Cosmos SDK modules, but we've also built modules that support asset tokenization. And for us, that includes an identity module, a token issuance and management module, a permissioning and guard module for people to really easily build compliant permissioned apps. But we've also built kind of like DeFi infrastructure, as well as supporting basically licensed applications, because we're in the process of also getting licensing here in the UAE to help create a secondary market. I think that's one of the other really important things is like there haven't really been legitimate secondary markets where people can trade these things. So solving that liquidity issue, solving that distribution problem is one of the very important things that we focus on regularly.

So I actually think it's not just about the L1. That's an important part of the stack. But you also have to figure out where does this actually trade. What led to that massive pump from the price of what we used? This is the same pump over the last few months and days. What were the announcements that you guys had?

And what do they mean for mad trams and just for IWA in general? The cool thing, JP, what I like about this discussion is that I genuinely don't know. I'm genuinely asking. It's not like, it's not like I know what, it's not like I know what you're gonna say

and I'm gonna compare you to say to the audience. So I'm curious what that is. So I appreciate that. Well, first off, as always, just, you know, when I'm talking about tokens and price, like not financial advice, do your own research, check us out kind of thing. But I think we did have some really strong

announcements over the last couple of weeks. We announced the partnership at ConsenSys with Ondo. We're doing a USDY vault where we're actually creating a tokenized vault product that you can basically deposit your stablecoins in. You can get tokenized T-bill exposure with additional OM token, as well as ONDO token incentives on top. I actually think that's launching ASAP. So that was one of them. And then we also announced a very big partnership with a digital bank here in Dubai or in the UAE called ZanBank. So we're basically the, I guess, layer one partner of ZanBank for the Web3 initiatives. We're gonna be working on a number of things. Fiat on and off ramping into our ecosystem.

We're exploring different elements of asset tokenization, specifically real estate. A number of different areas that we're collaborating on. And they're a really large player here. They're backed by Franklin Templeton. The chairman is actually the chairman of Emar, which is the largest property developer here. They're backed by Franklin Templeton. The chairman is actually the chairman of EMAR, which is the largest property developer here. They're also backed by the Al Mayan Royal family, which is the Abu Dhabi Royal family. So it's a really strong partnership for us and it definitely got a lot of

people excited. So you've kind of positioned yourself as the RWA chain by the looks of it now, considering, you know, where you're at, where your market cap is at. So, so, you know, you you're at, where your market cap is at. So, so, you know, you're talking about these partnerships in Dubai, but how about from a regulatory perspective, especially when you move to the West, I know this is a hurdle for RWAs. Is it still a hurdle?

Are we seeing a move towards acceptance by regulators? A hundred percent. It is. Well, a hundred percent of both parts. It is definitely still a hurdle. I mean, there's jurisdictions that move faster than others. Not all of these regulatory frameworks necessarily sync with each other. So having a flexible, customizable product suite that you can actually upgrade and really customize

for whatever jurisdiction you're targeting is one of the things that we've focused on when we built our chain out. But we've spent a lot of time working with regulators, engaging with them on a weekly, daily basis kind of thing. So I have spent a lot of time working with them. We've been going through this process in the UAE for nearly 2 years. And one of the things that I think is a big challenge for anyone seeking,

you know, licensing is basically like, at least here, right? Like they literally require multiple years of audited financial statements. They require all these capital, you know, CapEx requirements. They require like compliance officers, they require policy documents. They require all these different things that are not easy, and frankly, don't necessarily always sync with on-chain, DeFi, smart contract-based ideas and ideals. So I think one of the things that we've really, really spent a lot of time on is, well, one, education,

but also just how do you translate a lot of these technical jargon that the regulators have no idea what it is but also just like kind of how do you translate a lot of these technical, you know, jargon that the regulators have no idea what it is into something that they can understand. And then obviously, you know, combining that with building up a lot of trust and credibility has been really critical and key to us, you know, being able to kind of push that forward where we're sitting today.

And by the way, is it true? Just make sure I got my numbers right. 90% of your tokens are already unlocked and you've got 30% that are already staked as well? That's correct. So I think it's over that actually. So in terms of the existing kind of token supply, you know, again, as I mentioned,

we're celebrating our fourth birthday in August of this year. So we're definitely an OG project from that sense. And I think that has really helped support us in some of these initiatives where we kind of have supply on our side, so to speak. We don't have this massive amount of dilution like some of the new projects are having.

Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but at least for us, it does help that we don't have that massive dilution coming. And even when we launch mainnet later, this new supply that comes online is... We're going to be 50% plus in circulation. It's not like we have a 10% or less float and we have billions of dollars of FDV coming down the pipe without products, without use cases, without a market to support it. So we really did focus on that element of our tokenomics when we, you know, when we kind of built out this new L1 model. And I do think it does, you know, work to our

advantage in that sense. And at the same time, sometimes the new sector projects are also what get more attention, right? So there is pros and cons. You should join a lot more of our spaces. You're very eloquent. Appreciate that. Always welcome, sir. Yeah, we'll send you a few invites. But just going back to another theme when it comes to RWA, something I talk a lot about in gaming, but have you guys looked into interoperability when it comes to RWAs and RWA assets interacting with various protocols and other Web3 assets?

Yeah. Is it too early to discuss that? No, definitely not. I mean, there's a reason why we chose to build on the Cosmos SDK. I mean, we think that IBC is the interoperable protocol standard for the crypto ecosystem, essentially. We're really big proponents of that tech stack. That being said, we have definitely always been a chain agnostic,

ecosystem agnostic builder and team. Back even when we started Mantra years ago, we used to run validator info for, gosh, like 20, 30 different proof of stake chains from the Polkadot ecosystem, from the Cosmos, Tendermint, from Polygon, Solana, etc. So, you know, I don't even know if I should say this on a big space, but I actually think in the longer run, you know, maybe five plus years kind of thing, like, I don't even think the end user will know that they're working or using something that's built on Mantra.

And that's kind of the goal, right? As a chain, you kind of want to be in the background, like blockchains are perfect financial ledgers. And in my opinion, sometimes where we go wrong as a space is we were too forward with this, like, you need to be on a blockchain, you need to have a token. But for the end user, 99% of them don't care. So I think we've really also focused on how do we abstract away a lot of that kind of like crypto native complexity to build something that, you know, will actually be able to enable like more people to actually build on chain. You know, so that's kind of how we how we see the space. And what do you see of, by the way, when BlackRock, I think Larry Fink mentioned launching

a product for RWA, I can't remember what the product was, but did that lead to an increase in inflows and interest by investors in Mantra and other companies? For sure, like I think it's funny because we closed an investment round at

our group level, like an equity token round uh earlier this year and um you know we were an rwa focused project what what what valuation is that very low man honestly um like like peanuts to where we're at right now to be completely frank um but but i mean but the thing was like back then this was like you know end of last year beginning this year um people weren't really like bullish on rwas and actually you know even at the end they're like why you know why don't you invest into an ai play or you know meme coin play or something like that and um you know then you had larry fink coming out in the beginning of this

year and talking about tokenization you had the the Bitcoin ETF getting approved. You have a lot of these bullish regulatory signals coming out just across the globe. And I think that really did help the space. And I think the idea of tokenization is something that now everyone is talking about. And everyone starts to understand a little bit more because it is on mainstream media, you know daily day in day out um and you know i think you could even say that from a from an institutional perspective rwa's and asset organization has product market fit i think where it doesn't have necessarily a product market fit yet is on public permissionless blockchains and for retail and you know that's kind of what we're trying to solve and last question man where do you see our the the RWA narrative in the next, let's say by the end of the cycle and by the next cycle, what will be a realistic expectation? Good question. And how would it look like for the user?

So I think you're going to start having legitimate, relatively liquid secondary markets for a number of products. It doesn't mean that everyone around the world is going to be able to interact with them. I think you're still going to have kind of like walled garden approaches to, to these assets. But I think, you know, within the cycle, you'll, you'll, you'll begin to see that. I think you'll see, I don't know what the exact numbers are, but there's like a few billion of

tokenized, you know, RWAs, you know, taking stable coins aside, a few billion of, of, of TVL of tokenized RWAs, taking stablecoins aside, a few billion of TVL, of tokenized security products like T-bills on public blockchains, I think you're going to see multitudes more than that. I would say 100 billion plus kind of thing. There's a ways to go. But I think with the number of great projects that are working on this, the numbers will pick up.

And then when you're talking like... And this is akin to the DeFi summer experience that we had in 2020. I remember having a bit of a bet with one of my partners back then saying like, how much DVL is DeFi going to have at the end of this cycle? Or the end of this year? This is 2020. And I think at the time, it was like $2-3 billion. And we were basically saying like, at the end of the year, you're going to have 10. And, you know, we were basically saying like at the end of it, at the end of the year, you're going to have 10. And I think it ended up being a hundred plus kind of thing. So, you know, when this thing can click on the, the, the exponential growth can be pretty, pretty significant.

So I think that that's going to be where we end up this cycle. And then at the next one, God, I mean, the sky's really the limit. I wouldn't even venture too much of a guess because that could be you know three to five years down the line so um that being said that makes me even more bullish frankly yeah well congratulations on your announcements congratulations on the performance of the token and what you guys have built i'm really glad to have you on the show happy to have you on more shows and it's a great great way to end the show it's a great back and forth JP

and we should do a a whole space on RWAs because I think he's just not getting enough attention 100% the attention he deserves but JP pleasure to meet you

anyone that pleasure to chat to you again anyone else to check out Mantra if you haven't already check out JP's profile the link is there and for everyone else see you again tomorrow

thanks a lot for joining bye everyone thanks so much appreciate it man have a good one thanks guys see you bye