The Wolf Of All Streets - Market Pump: Why Is Bitcoin Rallying? | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

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Morning, everybody. Just getting everyone up on stage. I like our title. What happened to the Bitcoin rally? Apparently, we did that an hour ago. Because Bitcoin's up 2.8% in the last hour. So I think we're gonna have to change the title to what's happening with the Bitcoin rally. Morning, everybody. Just getting everyone up on stage. Are you guys hearing an echo on me? Very strangely, I just heard everything I said come back. The town hall was unmuted for a second. You're good. Oh, look at that. Look at you with all the tech knowledge and smarts and skills. Joe, what do you make of Joe, Chris, Peter? We got our technical analysts.

I guess we'll wait a little time, but Joe, what are you making of this move in the morning? Is this one of those things now where we just go, hey, it's Monday morning. We've got inflows. They're buying all the ETF action for the week. It has to be, right? I mean, I was just looking at what you were saying. I was like, you know, it's early here on the West Coast.

I didn't check anything this morning, you know, taking the garbage out. I was like, oh, we're still stalled. And then I opened up the charts first and I see we're cruising towards 69K. So I think some of the outflows last week, you know, and I'm just talking to people and talking about just selling pressure on GBTC and that's just, there's a narrative and a feel around inflows, outflows, and that's what's going to drive this market for a while. But maybe it was just a last week versus this week thing.

And so, yeah, I'm keeping my eyes real close on inflows, inflows, outflows this week. Yeah. And then we've only had outflows really from GBTC. And I think, you know, consensus is that maybe we're going to get a piece of news this week or next week that shows us that some bankruptcy unlocks some huge amount of GBTC. And that's why we saw a massive spike. I mean, it happened when an FTX was approved to sell a billion dollars and, you know, we saw the GBTC then. Because I don't think that there's a fundamental reason.

I don't think enough investors who are still in GBTC woke up last week after two months of holding on to it and decided to 10x how much they were going to outflow. Right? Because we were seeing like 60, 70 million outflows a day from GBTC, obviously easily swallowed by the others going to 600 700 a day right over sort of the weekend and that that can't be just uh normal sentiment selling in my opinion and interestingly for anyone who wasn't paying attention last week you saw these huge huge stories about outflows but it was only gbt's that out. The others still had inflows on a daily basis. So they were muted, but all of the outflow is from one source. So I see you bringing up Ran at the moment.

Ran, I can tell you that the first thing Ran is going to say since he just popped on and doesn't know what he's talking about is he's going to say, why are we talking about GBTC outflows? It's so annoying. I hate the ETF. I'm just waiting for it, but I can't get them connected yet. Is that right, Rand? Did you hear what I said?

I said the first thing Rand is going to say is, why are we talking about GBTC and ETF inflows and outflows? No, I think we must talk about ETF inflows and outflows, but we mustn't talk about GBTC outflows. Let's just talk about the net. Net-net last week, there was a drop and, in fact, a real lack of interest when it came to ETFs. And I mean, it's quite an alarm.

It's quite an alarm. It's quite an alarm bell for me when, you know, like why has this thing slowed down so dramatically? That said, you can kind of say that the last part of the cycle was around the ETF. And it's time for us to move on to, you know, we can't just sit here the whole year and base the Bitcoin trading on how much or the entire crypto market on how much money is coming in and out of the ETFs,

right? So I think, you know, let's give, let's, I see Bitcoin's up again. I'd imagine this morning. Just for our 69. Yeah. Just for our 69 for anybody paying attention. I would imagine that that's directly correlated

to the buys that are starting to happen on the ETFs. But yeah, I think we're getting very close to halving now. And that means usually that's the beginning

of the next part of the cycle, right? So what I think we need to do now is start looking beyond this part of the cycle, beyond the day-to-day etf inflows and start looking at like what what is the next part of the cycle about what are the narratives what are we that's pretty much what i spoke about on my show today i was like you know what happens after all these etf inflows well what's the next can you uh can you hint us into what you talked about i obviously saw i was just looking kind of over the market, RWA tokens were moving pretty big.

I'm assuming that's riding on the BlackRock Ethereum fund narrative. So that seems to be the one that's moving at this moment. We've kind of seen this AI, RWA, meme coin, I don't know, rotation or cyclical kind of ones up, ones even sort of thing. I mean, are those sort of our narratives deep in, I guess? So, yeah, I broke it down a little bit more systematically. And I said, look, which narratives do I want to be in and which narratives don't I want to be in?

So I'll give you some examples. I want to be in Bitcoin, but not really a lot because I think the time to be in Bitcoin is usually early in the cycle. And later in the cycle, it's better to be in altcoins. The time to be in Bitcoin was pretty much, for me, before the ETF. cycle, it's better to be in altcoins. You know, the time to be in Bitcoin was pretty much for me before the ETF. And now it's time to move away from Bitcoin.

Then logically you'd say, well, you know, then you should move to ETH. I'm not moving to ETH this cycle because I don't believe that we're going to get an ETH ETF in May. And if we do, then I think that altcoins will actually run much faster than ETH.

So I don't really see a reason to add to my ETH position. I'm going to start adding on to some other layer ones. I'm going to start adding to the Aptos and Sueys because they're so easy to use and such great technology. I'm going to start allocating to Fantom because it's making a comeback. I'm going to start allocating to adoption. So Coinbase is layer two, which is called base. You can't buy the token, but there are ways to get exposure to the ecosystem. I'm going to start buying those. Real-world assets, I mean, I think you'd be dumb not to be investing in real-world assets when BlackRock's pretty much leading the way.

So, you know, then it's all the tokens around real-world assets. It's like Chainlink and Pith and Ondo Finance and all the real-world asset tokens. And then you've got to have some money in gaming. You've got to have some money in cross-chain. So I think, look, we went into it quite in depth, but I think it's just time to place bets. And I think it's very important to realize that 80% of the altcoin returns

are made in the last 20% of the cycle. And so you don't want to walk into the last 20% of the cycle. I don't know when the last 20% of the cycle. And so you don't want to walk into the last 20% of the cycle. I don't know when the last 20% of the cycle is, but you kind of want to be ready. You don't want to walk into that last 20% trying to buy coins as they're moving up aggressively. I think that's a very bad strategy, right? So I'm trying to position myself now for the next part of the cycle. Yeah, I think that that's reasonable. I think most people probably can't gain exposure to all of those different alleys. And I would argue that your point is well taken as traders.

Maybe the most of the upside is not in Bitcoin, but I would, I would personally never encourage anybody to steer away from their Bitcoin holdings at this point in the cycle, if they're obviously an investor or believer? Yeah, I mean, each to their own. Specifically for me, because I live and breathe crypto every single day, I can hop from narrative to narrative. I'll be honest, I'm not adding any Bitcoin, but I'm not selling any Bitcoin at the moment either.

I never sell Bitcoin. I just buy and buy and buy. And as soon as I buy, I send it to my long-term custodian. And to be honest, it's so hard to get Bitcoin out of the custodian that it's like a one-way funnel, you know what I mean? That's the beauty of the hoops you have to go through to have truly great custody, is that by the time you've decided to sell, that sentiment or urge is long gone.

It's just too much of a baby ass. Zach, you can go ahead. Yeah, thanks. So I think it's an interesting conversation. Definitely at a high level, I disagree that like, I agree with you that it probably makes sense to hang on your Bitcoin at your long term conviction. But if you're trying to play the parts of this cycle, and you think we're going to get a traditional cycle, I think what we're seeing is maybe what we talked about last week,

where we're moving from the sort of pure meme coin narrative into the type of stuff that VCs have been funding for the last year or two. And I think Rand got most of the categories that have been funded. RWA is big, Deepin is big, gaming, AI. I think there's only one that he missed, which is Ethereum restaking derivatives. I think that is also likely to be huge in the later part of the cycle. I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. And I did actually on the show, I covered that. I just think that, you know, I think a month from now when Eigenware launches, that's when the whole narrative is going to spring up. So yeah, that's going to be huge.

And then on Bitcoin, I think runes are going to be huge. And I think like for- I read about that this morning. Yeah. Yeah. And again, like this is super not advice because like it's going to be difficult. But like if I were just a retail person

and didn't have any access to like crypto venture capital, runes I think are going to be launched in a very different way than these other heavily VC funded projects where if you can understand the code and you can get into some of those projects early, that's probably the most democratized of all of these trends and probably the easiest way for retail to make a bunch of money without necessarily being dumped on by private cell bags. Yeah. So, Rand, do you believe that there are a lot of trades to be done within the Ethereum ecosystem?

You're just saying not Ethereum itself, necessarily. Yeah, I think you naturally get exposure to Ethereum because everything is linked to Ethereum in one way or another, whether you're playing in real world assets or whether you're playing deep end or whatever. Eventually, it's all Ethereum, but not bullish on the Ethereum chain itself. I'm very bullish on base, for example, but I'm not bullish on the Ethereum chain itself. I'm very bullish on base, for example, but I'm not bullish on the Ethereum chain itself. I'm sure it will go up, but I just think that there's better returns to be gotten out there. I think there's going to be a big disappointment around the ETH ETF.

Yeah, well, I think that that fires out. You know, I don't think that the SEC is going to allow that. Certainly not with staking. And everybody is seemingly updating their applications to include staking, which makes it meaningfully different, I think, than Bitcoin. I think they're positioning for the next administration or further down the road. And frankly, I think even if these were approved, they would do a small fraction of what Bitcoin did. I just don't think that there's any real path forward with the ETF. And if that was the trade, I think there's other reasons to look at Ethereum. That's not the main one right now.

So, I mean, just think about it like this. Just think about it like this just think about it like this um i if if eth runs everything will run and then you'll be a custodian of everything you'll be a custodian of the run because of everything makes sense yeah william can you hear me? Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, I mean, it's a bit contradictory to say not being bullish on Ethereum, but being bullish on the L2s like the base. I mean, they all depend on Ethereum for security and for roll-ups and whatever the L2s are doing. They are joined at the hip to Ethereum.

So it kind of goes hand in hand together. And then as far as the ETF with the SEC, judging by how they brought the Bitcoin one, they're not going to give it to us on a platter. They're going to fight like hell. They're going to dance and move and pretend the barriers are high and so on. That's what they are doing right now, delaying and delaying and giving this deadline and so on. Ultimately, it's going to happen, but it's not going to happen automatically. Yeah, I think that when we talk about the Ethereum spot ETF as sort of the trade,

right, the minute we saw the fake SEC tweet that Bitcoin spot ETF were approved, Ethereum pumped, not Bitcoin, right? And same with the actual approval and in other different situations, I think what Rand is saying is the immediate expectation that that would be the trade because of what we saw with the Bitcoin spot ETF has somewhat disappeared, right? I mean, Rand, I don't want to speak for you, but yeah. If you see the trade as speculation about the ETH ETF, it turns out that was an awesome trade, right? Like ETH BTC during that period based on that hype that turns out probably not to be warranted. That was a short-term break trade.

It's just at this point, it really looks like we're not getting ETH ETF soon. Yeah, I think that that's accurate. So for traders, they made what they wanted there if they realized that it was dampening and sort of exited and moved on. And William, I think yours and Rand's points are both correct. It's just how aggressive are you with your capital and how aggressively are you trading to sort of take advantage of it? Because ETH will obviously rise. I would say actually for the average person who's investing or looking to find a little beta or upside, just buying the layer ones themselves,

I've been saying this since last cycle, is probably the way to capture it. Maybe you capture a 2 or 3x and not the 20, 30 or 200 and 300 of choosing that right one thing, the one in a thousand shot that's on those chains, but you will accrue some value from anything that's built on it. I mean, is that effectively what you're saying, William? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I think it's long-term versus short-term, obviously. Yeah, I mean, the expectation was a bit too rushed

for the Ethereum ETF to follow Bitcoin. And again, the SEC is not going to give us anything on the platter. They are going to fight as much as they can until the elections. And maybe, maybe before the election, they'll do something to look good just for the election, maybe. But Ethereum in the long term, I mean, I'm not going to give price predictions, but it is going to continue to accrue value as the L2 and the L3 around it continue to grow. Yeah, that makes sense. Andrew, what are your thoughts on the Ethereum spot ETF here while we're talking? Yeah, I think my thoughts are fairly well known,

but I think it's a long way off. I think there's going to be, whether it's a removal of the applications, so they're going to pull the applications because it's going to be whispered to the actually applicants that, hey, this isn't going to happen or an outright right denial. You know, I don't know which way it's going to go, but it'll have the same effect. So it will push it into probably 2025. I just know since January 12th of this year, which was one day after the Bitcoin ETFs were approved. You know, people that I would kind of take their word as gold, given their proximity to the applicants themselves, have said that, you know, the SEC in general and the folks that vote on this stuff. By the way, most ETFs that are

quote unquote approved don't actually go to a vote like the Bitcoin ETF does. I don't know. That's right. They're just passive. They're not rejected. That's basically what happens. That's correct. I don't know if everybody that's here knows that, but 90 plus percent of ETFs don't even go to a vote. So the fact that the Bitcoin ETFs went to a vote was symbolic in that they were forced down the throat of the SEC by the courts. And Gary Gensler had, you know, cast the deciding vote. So that was a CYA moment for him. But he's been, you know, at best noncommittal about Ethereum ETFs, at worst, not really said a thing about them and to some degree, been very anti anything else crypto ETF isn't going to happen. So, yeah, it would be shocking if somehow the Ethereum ETFs were approved this year. Now, what does that have to say about Ethereum price action?

You know, I don't think it has much to say about it. I think there can be all sorts of catalysts for Ethereum to move higher that has nothing to do with an etf approval um you know ethereum has done its thing for years with with nothing associated with an etf and i would also surmise that you know i i don't know what type of buying and inflow velocity would exist uh for ETFs in the first place. You're talking about... That's what I said earlier. Yeah, very, very small percentage of retail folks are even becoming aware of Bitcoin and

its value right now. So an additional cryptocurrency ETF, that's frankly somewhat more complicated in terms of what kind of discussion. Imagine financial advisors, traditional financial advisors, right? A 59-year-old guy sitting at Raymond James or Merrill Lynch trying to describe to retail you know, retail clients, you know, Ethereum and proof of stake and stake. It's comical, frankly. There's no way that that conversation is reasonable at the moment. So, you know, I don't know, maybe Ethereum is better off in the mid and long term, you know, not being associated with Ethereum. Yeah, I think we can move on from the Ethereum ETF conversation.

I think we all agree there that not necessarily a thing. What I do want to talk about circling back since we have the audience and our guests on stage is what's happening with price right now. Bitcoin, $69,202. I love Chris and then Peter, your opinions on the chart, what we're looking at, what's the meaningful levels to start thinking about new all-time highs, where we likely headed. Peter, you can go. Your mic's up. Yeah. I mean, last week, there was a lot of hoo-ha about the correction in Bitcoin. And then last Wednesday, I put out on Twitter, what correction? We haven't had a correction in

Bitcoin. There is no correction in Bitcoin going on. The correction we saw was just under 18%. You look back at past bull market phases in Bitcoin, 17% is a wink. When the market's down 17% is winking at you and saying, buy me, buy me. You know, I would think that we have just replete in past bull market cycles with 20% corrections. So we get 20 to 25, then let's talk about whether we have a correction or not. I, you know, for me, we can go all the way back to low 50s and bull market is still very, very much intact. We're early in this bull market. April 19th is halving date. That should mark the halfway point chronologically of this Bitcoin bull market from the November 21st, 2020 to low. And so we're really talking about a bull market that should extend similar to the past curiosity of bull market cycles all the way through August, perhaps September of 2025.

I would love to see the market stall here. I would actually love to see a correction. We haven't had one yet. So that's my opinion. And as to ETH, I'm with you, Rand. I think ETH is a piece of junk. No interest in it chris yeah i'll tell you what man um i was looking i told everybody last week that i was

looking for this breakout above that 68 900 level um we got that this morning uh you know the market structure on the four hour it was bearish coming off the all-time high but this morning uh you know the market structure on the four hour it was bearish coming off the all time high but this morning with that breakout uh you know kind of um changes that uh you know i i agree with peter though i mean you know this has been nothing this has been just a very little pullback uh but yet people uh if you're watching, which I guess is probably why Peter also put that, uh, post out there is because people are still very emotional. I'm still hearing a lot of, um, you know, we're due for a pullback, you know, price needs to do this price is going to, you know, pull back to here.

Um, all very much emotional kind of responses. And, um, usually when you're getting that, uh, people don't get what they're looking for, you know, because again, you know, it's just this idea that what they're saying is actually wrapped up in emotion rather than just kind of reading along with the charts. That said, you know, I'm still kind of careful at the moment. I could see us potentially going sideways for longer, but we don't necessarily have to. If we can get some nice aggressive push above the all-time high there, you know, around that 73,700 change area, then I'd be looking up toward 87,000 next. But again, we could get toward that area

and get rejected and potentially even pull back down toward um you know towards 60 000 uh before we finally take off so i'm just kind of right now you know it's chop it's sideways we've we've really been going sideways for about a month now and um the daily looks good uh to head up but that four hour is kind of hot so i'm still kind of watching it but that's that's what i'm looking at right now that makes perfect sense uh joe now uh on where the market's headed waking up and seeing 69 000. you know i think i think we all have just some sort of ptsd from this bear market you know and it's like we all want for some reason things it's like we don't you know, and it's like, we all want, for some reason, things, it's like, we don't think we deserve it. It's like, oh, it's got to go sideways. It's got to go down. This was too much too fast. You know, we're sitting here with rates, you know, you can

go get a money market account for 5.25% risk free money. Just why wouldn't you just sit back and relax and just grab that a lot of people are, you know, when rates start to come down, you know, where's that money going to go, it's going to go into the market, the market's going to continue to get flushed up. And, you know, at some point, they're gonna have to pull these rates down. It's harder, it's hard to get a job right now. Right? They're, they're still flushing these jobs out. And so I just think everyone has some sort of, you know, we're like, we're beaten down so hard in the last 1000 days, or whatever it was that we had this bear market that no one wants to almost admit that we can go higher. But we are going to go higher. And you know,

the inflows that are happening in the ETF, that's like that, that ship has sailed, that's happening massive success on that side. And now the market's rotating into everything else, looking for exposure, like Ren was saying, in different pockets, right? And so it's like you can't, in order to get exposure over on base, they have no native token. You've got to go to like Brett token and son of Brett and baby Brett and all the other meme tokens that are over there because that's where you get exposure. And that's where the money's flowing.

And so you're just getting the rotation into some of these other things that are, you know, some of the things from last cycle, like a phantom avalanche has been doing well off that bottom. And then other things are taking a pause like Matic, right? Not seeing those moves. So I think you're just, you're starting to see where people are finding value and where, and where people want to interact and transact. And it is on a lot of these new layer ones because people think, hey, the charts look better. I don't have the historical down 95%. But there are coins from last cycle that will do well too. But I just think we are going to continue to move up. The halving is going to be, I think, very bullish. It's another psychological moment. And I'm actually interested in what the

miners are going to do with all their debt that they have and how they're going to pay that off in the same kind of way when they have half the revenue like this the second that the having happened so that's something that i'm looking at is the miners and what's going to happen there peter yeah i i just want to point out a couple of data points here. 2015 to 17 bull market, market had advanced about 4x from the low of the cycle into the halving. 2018 to 21 bull market, market had advanced about 2.7x from the low of the cycle into the halving. So where are we this cycle i mean if you take 69,000 right now uh with the having yet to come we've advanced about 4.4 x from the low of the cycle into the having the meat is still on the bone guys i mean the skin's barely been broken

yeah so nothing new here as much as it seems like it's been crazy. The only difference here is that it actually made the all-time high before the halving this time, right, Peter? That's correct. Andrew, I think you had your hand up there. Yeah, real quickly, I wanted to pass a note that I just got about 45 seconds ago. It looks like Morgan Stanley is going to be coming online with the Bitcoin ETFs in about two weeks. So, yeah, a couple of legal folks that I'm close with that are very, very close with BlackRock's product have been told that looks like two weeks

for Morgan Stanley. And the process with Morgan Stanley, as I've been following it, is that their intention is not to necessarily silo the Bitcoin ETFs into their private wealth management portion of their wealth management business that they want to broadly offer it to clients. So that's why they've taken a little bit longer to come on board than, say, Merrill Lynch did. Merrill Lynch is on board, but it's only available to PWM clients. So yeah, again, another catalyst. It's been my contention that these types of headlines and catalysts will continue in the short and medium term and add continued inflows into these products. Again, it's remarkable. It's very, very different than any other ETF that's ever been offered. I think Eric at Bloomberg put out a

chart today that shows that there have been like 50 days of inflows without outflows for both BlackRock and Fidelity's Bitcoin ETFs. Those are the current longest streaks of any ETFs that exist right now. That's not the record, but currently those two have the longest streaks of inflows on a day-by-day basis. So Morgan Stanley coming online quickly. I'll go on mute because there's vacuuming in the background. Douglas, what are your thoughts? You haven't had a chance to speak. You know, when we talk about Bitcoin these days, BlackRock's very important.

And everyone gets very excited by BlackRock and institutional involvement. And there's been a little bit of trash talking on Ethereum this week. But last week was all about FUD for Ethereum. Is it a security? That kind of stuff came out again. But one really important piece of news was that BlackRock's going to list a token on Securitize, and they've picked it on the Ethereum blockchain. Now, Larry Fink said that the first move was going to be the Bitcoin ETF. The second move was going to be tokenization. And he looks like he's putting everything on Ethereum.

And if that's the case, I think we're going to start talking about institutions getting behind Ethereum in a very big way. And people may not like it, but I think Ethereum is going to have a good chance at having significant rallies from here, again, on the back of BlackRock saying this is what they want. And I think if BlackRock wants something, then I think in the end, the SEC agrees. And so I think that I'm excited about Bitcoin. Obviously, last week's narrative was more let's concentrate on what the ETFs are doing. And I think people forgot that the halving is coming very, very quickly.

But I also think that last week was about lots of FUD on Ethereum being a security. And people forgot about this thing because it's in the security token universe that no one really on this call cares about, I guess, maybe as much as I do. But that news that BlackRock is going to be listing a security using Ethereum blockchain, I think was very, very important, but I don't think many people really heard it. A yield bearing token, which is called BUIDL for people who didn't realize. BlackRock has gone full crypto meme with the misspelling of hold and build, BUIDL. So clearly they're down this rabbit hole and Douglas, I 100% agree with you. I'm still a pretty big Ethereum bull as probably everyone knows.

Simon, go ahead. Yeah. Go on. Sorry, I've got to do the full disclosure. I'm a shareholder in Securitize. Of course you are. The structure of the fund on Ethereum is actually really interesting. It's something we did in 2015 at Bank to the Future.

They're actually paying out the yield in real time on chain on the Ethereum blockchain. So it is actually like a really interesting application and it's all codified to get real time daily dividends. So it's actually, yeah, it's a really interesting one to watch. I was also going to comment on Joe's observation where he was asking about what's going to happen with the debt of the miners.

I was doing a bit of analysis on this over last week. So the balance sheet of the mind 325 million debt on 672 million cash um can you say it over again we lost you for a second i want to hear the exact number yeah we lost you oh can you can you hear now i'm in hotel internet sorry yeah yeah you're good there was just a gap there. Yeah, so Marathon's $325 million debt on $672 cash. Riot's debt-free on $908 million cash. ClearSpark is $15 million debt on $161 million cash. Bitfarm's $4 million debt on $114 million cash um bit farms 4 million debt on 114 million cash um and bit deer 23 million debt on

121 million cash um so yeah it's uh it looks like it'll be interesting to see what marathon does but marathon and riot are seriously you know um they've got they're moving into this with a seriously strong balance sheet with very aggressive like marathons up to 24.7 exahashes now and then next in line is riot with 12.4 exahashes um so yeah it'll be it'll be interesting to see what they they do with the debt but i think the name of the game is to issue more debt um into into the bull market because the valuation is is really dependent upon on how much hash rate you're deploying that all makes perfect sense we had uh james butterfield from coin shares dig in last week to sort of which miners he viewed as likely to be solvent or at least

positioned well for the having and those that were not. And when you really separate them and don't put them all into one bucket, some of these guys effectively combine with a profitability floor in the 20,000s while others are going to need Bitcoin to be 60 or 70,000 to remain solvent. And that's true of publicly traded miners as well. So it's going to be 60 or 70,000 to remain solvent. And that's true of publicly traded miners as well. So, you know, it's going to be interesting, I think, after the halving to see how these perform. I mean, Simon, are there any of them that you're glaringly worried about? Sorry, maybe I cut out, got my internet.

I was just asking if there's any that you think you would be glaringly worried about. Obviously, you've said it was well-positioned. Are there any that you think might be poorly positioned? No, I mean, they've got a strong balance sheet. There's a bunch of small ones, which I wonder how they're going to react. I don't think they've got strong enough balance sheets, but I don't know whether they're just going to be merged in. But also on the Celsius bankruptcy, I'll be watching the ionic digital which is the new one that's going to be coming

to town um which uh yeah we'll see how that that reacts that's going to be really interesting because it's a hundred percent creditors are going to own that thing uh so it's going to be i mean these things are so you think bitcoin's volatile check out the miners it's uh they're insane yeah i mean why do you think that they've been so insane i mean i think that it's the reasons we said before a lot of people fear in advance of the having of course what's going to happen but i also think that a lot of that volume has flowed into the etfs for people who are buying publicly traded mining stocks as proxies for an ETF. Had some pushback on that idea, but I've got to imagine that's a part of it. I think so. So if you look at the evolution of the public market,

so if you want exposure to an exchange, you've got Coinbase. Now you've got ETFs if you want Bitcoin exposure. Then with mining and microstrategy, they're leveraged bitcoins um you know micro strategy is utilizing debt in in a really smart way the way they're structuring it so you'd expect greater exposure plus they've got the cash flow that comes in from the software business but it's operating at about like 54 times earnings which is insane like amazon is about three times earnings or something. So, you know, the numbers are insane. But the miners, yeah, I mean, people are just seeing it as leveraged Bitcoin.

And I think there would be a bunch of outflows into ETFs now that came online. But also just this is probably for most of these miners, they came around during the last halving. So this will be the first time that we see how they manage their way through mining. So it's just uncertainty. I just think people are like, well, I might as well put it into an ETF to to figure this out but historically if we're in a bull market they're trading at serious um discounts to what what they did in the last bull market at the moment that makes perfect sense brand are you still here anything uh interesting left to uh squeeze here we uh kind of know what's happening with the market i think we pretty much know what's

happening in the market i have been listening but much know what's happening in the market. I have been listening, but I think it's one of those days where I think we're getting a good pump, which is great. Can we take a moment and marvel at the fact that Bitcoin's at 69k plus and Grayscale sold $2 billion worth of GBTC last week? Can we take a moment and be aware of that? I can't wait for the day where they just don't have Bitcoin left, and that's for many reasons.

One of the reasons is because I want to stop talking about it, but many reasons is because I just think that thank you for all the hard work you did getting us an ETF, but you've been so dumb on your strategy, charging such high fees. You're asking people to leave your ETF, and I can't wait for them to actually leave your ETF. Yeah, the price, right. It's just pretty radical to see the way that price action with Bitcoin has just dramatically changed. Like the idea of $2 billion in quote unquote liquidations two years ago would have absolutely tanked the price of Bitcoin very, very quickly.

That's just not the case anymore. And pretty remarkable to watch the maturity of of of bitcoin kind of happening you know before our very eyes it's it's it's pretty cool stuff hey andrew what's your latest thought on gbtc obviously it's like a product that's just gonna be there you just you just opened a 30 minute can of worms sorry sorry Sorry. You want to close off, yeah? Andrew, do the TLDR. One minute. The TLDR is they have to be having meaningful discussions about their fee and how do they rebound from this. Or if I put on my tinfoil hat, at some point there was some discussion associated with the approval of all of these that

barry just takes it in the can one of those two things has to be what's happening here that was a great tldr love it yeah and simon we were going to move to wrap uh mario's on a boat i know ran's got to run and uh so i think we pretty much covered it today guys thank you so much we'll be back, obviously, tomorrow morning, 1015 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. See you then. Bye, everyone.