The Wolf Of All Streets - NBA Star Tokenized His Career And Is Making It Possible For Everyone Else

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

NBA Star Spencer Dinwiddie and former financier Solo Ceesay are putting their heads together to build the new creator economy for Web3.0. Their goal? To empower more meaningful and fulfilling fan experiences. I sat down with them at Consensus to discuss their journey together thus far and what we can expect to see moving forward. We chatted about why Spencer went all in on crypto, why Solo made the switch from Wall Street to the Metaverse, and their newly coined term “Web2.5.” JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER 📩 https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS ►► Ready to scale your big idea? Business banking with Mercury makes it easy. FDIC-insured bank accounts, unlimited virtual cards, free wire transfers, and more—all in one simple-to-use Interface. Sign up for a free Mercury account online in just minutes and get better business banking. Go to http://thewolfofallstreets.info/mercury to sign-up today. ►► Vauld is a Smart Investing Crypto Platform which allows the user to invest without any stress! With Vauld, you can earn free passive income in crypto. Vauld lets you earn the highest interest rates in the crypto industry - 12.68% on stablecoins and 6.7% on BTC and ETH.. Sign up below and get a 40% kickback on trading fees, 5% commission on interest payouts and 5% commission on loan interest. Vauld’s ‘Buy the Dip’ function automatically purchases specific cryptocurrencies for you when the price dips below a pre-set level. It’s awesome! Sign up here: http://thewolfofallstreets.info/vauld EPISODE LINKS Solo Ceesay: https://twitter.com/SoloCeesay Spencer Dinwiddie: https://twitter.com/SDinwiddie_25 Production & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/ FOLLOW SCOTT MELKER • Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets • Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io • Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe • Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3FASB2c

I think when it came to building that proper ecosystem over time, we wanted to make sure that creators, through the use of what we call social tokens or creator tokens, would have all that power to capture the value they create. And whatever that social token gets you or is used for or anything like that is up to the creator. consumer relationship for that value to be captured versus being reliant on a centralized entity who has its own agenda to maximize for them to pay you out. It's the idea of a complete redistribution of the way in which funds flow through this ecosystem. This podcast is sponsored by Mercury and Vauld. Please stay tuned for more information on both of these amazing companies later in the episode. There are endless ways for creators to monetize their content and to monetize their contracts and things like that, but they're all in web two, where there's a third party toll collector in the middle, and they can't keep all of the money that they've created,

all of the value that they've created, but that's changing. Solo and Spencer from Calixly have created a new economy where creators can monetize and keep all of the money and the benefit and value from what they are creating. You guys don't wanna miss this. It's an incredible conversation. Oh, you got the crypto dad hat. Yeah. He just gave it to me while I was walking through the hall.

Yeah, I like that. I like that. I'm an actual crypto dad. Me too. I got a four year old. Oh, four? My kids are seven and three. Challenging. Hell, I mean.

No, no, no, it is. He thinks he runs everything. And he does. I wonder where he gets that everything. And he does. Pretty much. I wonder where he gets that from. Oh, stop. You guys are old friends, right? Us?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can make remarks like that of him and not get that. No, and I won't jab him. So you were the first athlete ever to basically fractionalize the contract. Why? Are we starting for real? Yeah, where are we going?

Oh, we're rolling. Your kids are now. Oh, my kids are here. Wait, you guys started? It's kid. We just minted his kid in NFT right here. This is not financial advice. I say kids, and everybody's going to go, what?

He's got a secret job. What did you do in 1998? No, you were the first athlete to fractionalize your contract effectively why why did you decide to do that um so pretty much at the time like i got into crypto like 2017 or so i rode the rise and fall and and to keep a long story short it sparked a education curve into the uh blockchain crypto space and then you know merging something that I was just learning about with something I know a ton about, which is the entertainment industry. How to kind of democratize sports contracts, better involve the fan, get them closer to what they want, which is the player and those experiences. And I felt like the contract was one of the best ways to do that with the rise in sports gambling as well. And, yeah, so I did that. I ended do that with the rise in sports gambling as well and uh yeah so i did that

i ended up fighting with the league uh the product changed probably five different times and i was able to kind of release a bond like structure um that actually shoot i think it ends actually next july it's still going on right now were you concerned at any point that making that decision going to battle with the league was going to actually affect your career uh to a degree, but I definitely going into it, I told everybody around me, like, hey, we'll only fight this to a point. You know what I'm saying? If this ever becomes a choose basketball or choose your concept, well, then we're choosing basketball.

I just signed my second deal at the time, but I knew I still probably had a third and fourth deal as well. And obviously I played basketball since I was four years old, so I wasn't going to sacrifice that. But we fought to a degree. They told me at one point in time they were going to kick me out the league because I was gambling and doing something illegal. And so we had to get some PR behind that and go back and forth with them.

But at the end of the day, we settled on a product that they were cool with, and I ended up launching that. And it kind of spearheaded the movement into galaxy and social tokens and you know working with with solo obviously was that Citibank at the time and now is the CEO of our company I mean it's been a whirlwind the last five years but it's been the most of the time my life you left a comfortable job at Citibank to do this yeah I did the wild ones really nice job it was benefits and let's do crypto i mean i think when you think about it for us it really had to do with the idea

of like doing things that you were passionate about and i think for me it just came from a supreme understanding about the premise of why blockchain exists and then also like the applications of what we were trying to build right so like with this contract securitization um unlocking trapped liquidity and something that's like a traditional asset is something that Wall Street hasn't been able to figure out. Like people have been trying to securitize LeBron James

for 10 years. Like that's something that people have been talking about since the day I got there. So being a specialized person, I saw blockchain and he had brought it to me at that point in time as the most practical way to do that and so when it came to me like you know being able to understand that completely and like actually have that use case come up the idea of leaving became you know a lot more enticing and starting to do things

that you actually care about merging things like the entertainment industry and blockchain is just doing things that are entrepreneurial or something that I've always you always been interested in. Were you already in Bitcoin, crypto, or at least superficially interested in it? He was talking about crypto in like 2019. Like he was really the, like, I, cause like you gotta take into account, like I had a Wharton education at the time, went and worked at an investment banking, you know, an investment banking program at Bulge Racket Bank, like to turn around and just like, yeah, you know what?

I don't think the banking structure or the banking system as structured makes sense. That's a wild thing to say. It was wild to my African parents and it was even more wild to my managing directors at the time. But I think it just came from having very substantive conversations about the applications of it.

I mean, I graduated from Penn 23 years ago very substantive conversations about the applications of it? I mean, I graduated from Penn 23 years ago, and all my friends who went down that Wall Street path, most of them, I still can't get to buy Bitcoin. And it's what I've been doing passionately for five or six years. So I think that making that transition, that jump, and the longer you sort of are in the legacy mentality, the harder it is to escape and do that.

But to talk about what you guys are actually doing with Galaxy. Conceptually, obviously, it makes sense, but what is the ethos of it? What are you trying to provide to the creator? What are you trying to provide to the enthusiast? Yeah, so I mean, I guess I'll speak to the ethos and then let him dive into the weeds. But like I said, it was sitting at the intersection of the entertainment industry and blockchain. I went through the securities process on that side and then figured out that that was pretty cumbersome and that most people weren't going to have $30, $60, $100 million contracts

to be able to put on the blockchain, but they still had all this utility value in terms of experiences. And we see that kind of with the cameos and OnlyFans and people just trying to stay at home, sell whatever talent they have that's unique to them, sell whatever talent, you know what I'm saying, they have that's unique to them, monetize that, and create a future, right, throughout just talent and being at home. So that was the ethos. And being creator-focused, creator-first in our modeling,

so we created a business model that we felt like was more enticing to the creator than the more top-down structures like the YouTubes and, like I said, the cameras and all that. So doing that part, and then we just wanted to make sure that the user experience was familiar because we knew with Web 3.0 you have the 12 key passphrases. You have, you know what I'm saying, you got to write down your password in a piece of paper and, you know, throw it in the ocean so nobody can catch it. And pray. Yeah, and pray, right, that a shark doesn't hack your account, you know what I'm saying?

But, yeah, so that was just kind of what we wanted to do, right? Kind of be Web 2.5 in a sense, have a familiar user experience, be creator-focused at its core. And then as we get into the weeds, I mean, like I said, he's running day-to-day doing all the minutia. Right, but you talk about YouTube and OnlyFans and Cameo and all these, and it's amazing that a creator is able to monetize, but you're about YouTube and OnlyFans and Cameo and all of these, and it's amazing that a creator is able to monetize, but you're still paying that toll collector.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just, when you think about the entertainment industry at large, it's like the cartel with how it functions. Like, even as an NBA player and all the value that they create for around the sport of basketball, like, NBA players are paid well. Yeah, great. But, like, they create so much value. And I think that's existent, like that exists across all different types

or different parts or segments of the entertainment industry. And so what we came to build is something like, you know, allowing these creators to take some of that ownership back into their own hands and enable them with the proper community building tools to do so. And so like, NFTs were very popular.

That was kind of the creator economy s angle to web 3 you know it's funny we were just talking about it a couple you know minutes ago it was like the premise of blockchain or the power the promise of blockchain rather wasn't super appealing to me based off of the idea of nfts they weren't that wasn't a thing back then right like it was the other applications of blockchain and like everything being a chip on the table and increased liquidity and frictionless payments and borders was the main, you know, what excited us at the time. And so I think when it came to building that proper ecosystem over time, we wanted to make sure that creators through the use of what we call social tokens or creator tokens would have all that power to capture the value they create. And whatever that social token gets you or is used for anything like that is up to the creator and so it's really allowing them to create that direct consumer relationship for that

value to be captured versus being reliant on a centralized entity who has its own you know agenda to maximize for them to pay you out it's the idea of a complete redistribution of the way in which funds flow through this ecosystem i mean it's pretty crazy i've done some digging into it obviously i mean you can do a video call with your favorite celebrity that's crazy people die kill for that right yeah no exactly i mean i think um that's only one of the things i think in in our model there's also a custom bespoke services right like there's going to be uh maybe you could have a little training session with me or you know something of that

nature if it's a chef maybe they actually cook something i'm just saying like like you know we know financial advice no financial but in general we just wanted to be as open as possible and provide as much utility for that community building type of style and we feel like social tokens not only uh help you interact with your community but help kind of like organize and and motivates probably not a mobile there you go yeah yeah mobilize your community thank you man yeah yeah there was a book I can't remember the name of it was basically about this conceptually but with previous social media and it basically said if you as a creator can

gather a thousand super fans you basically become a millionaire and have this conceptually but with previous social media and it basically said if you as a creator can gather a thousand super fans you basically become a millionaire and have an entire career just based on a thousand people who are passionate about and what you feel so you don't have to be an nba basketball player you can literally just be a guy who makes music in this one about this one town and this many people love it and you can literally make a lifelong career on it it's a hundred percent the case because like I think what it allows it it allows a revolution for people that are gonna make their primary means of income off the internet it gives them the proper tools to do so right like if you think about all the content creators out there like you know there's a

difference between like a content creator and an influencer right like he's an influencer it's not a content creator he's not making YouTube videos not making vlogs or anything like he's an influencer, right? Like he's an influencer, he's not a content creator. He's not making YouTube videos, he's not making vlogs or anything like that. He's an influencer, a person of influence, right? And obviously he plays in the NBA, but not all segments of the entertainment industry get paid like NBA players. So you think about the YouTubers that, you know,

have trouble paying their rent at the end of the month, even though they influence, you know, 100,000 people. Well, I can tell you from my traditional finance background, there are people that influence maybe five people in the world that are millionaires right like if you have that much influence like the fact that you're only making a certain amount of money it's completely warped and skewed in favor of the platforms and so what we wanted to do is build um not only the tools like giving them the social tokens but on top of it an application layer um you know that

video call experience that you're talking about that gives that utility so that somebody that's not deep into the space of blockchain needs to go out and you know figure out what a social token is or like the way in which they can integrate it into some web service or application or whatever that they would have to build on their own and and to that point i mean we actually hear about it they teach us um and kind of some of those MBPA calls and business stuff like back when I was doing RTP rookie transition program sorry that you convert one to two percent of your followers to two buyers but they were talking about more in a traditional e-commerce type of fashion right

jerseys exactly jersey shoes you know I said I have my own shoe at one point in time and so that was kind of of the method that we went with. But remember, you have 300,000 followers, let's say, on Instagram, right? But now the product that I'm selling is $2 instead of $100. Now that conversion rate goes a little bit higher. And as you go more to the masses, and even if it's like, hey, like for a dollar, I'll follow you. But if all 300,000 people want me to follow them and I click a button and I start following these 300,000 people, I get $300,000 for it. For a lot of people, that value proposition is there. Most people wouldn't do that. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And I think you'd rather also have a smaller amount from a larger amount of people because that larger amount of people will continue to grow and then eventually have the money to buy the more expensive things that you offer as well. Ready to scale your big idea? Business banking with Mercury makes it easy. In addition to FDIC-insured bank accounts, unlimited virtual cards, foreign currency exchange, and free wire transfers, Mercury offers custom team management features that complement your company's growth. What's more, Mercury offers additional financing options like venture debt, depositing founder-friendly loans directly into your Mercury account.

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do they ever mention crypto or do you think that they ever will? I got in the league eight years ago. But do you think that they ever will? Do you think it'll become like, I know they bring in the financial advisors. They tell you guys like how to handle and be responsible, right?

Oh, yeah. I would assume in the last couple of years, they probably mentioned it. I'm pretty removed from it, so I don't know. But eight years ago, no. I wonder what they're saying 2014 no no there's no time i wonder what they were saying 2014 you would have brought it up and got fired yeah exactly like 2019 now be wary 2020 comes around still be wary 2021 have you all heard about top shot

but i think that all happened last year and it's crazy crazy that for NFTs, it really was Top Shot. Everybody talks about Bored Apes and all these PFPs and stuff, but it was all Top Shot. Well, to that point as well, Top Shot is what allowed the conversation, I think, to not be taboo in NBA locker rooms. Because when I was speaking about it in like 2017, 2018, things like that, they all looked at me like I was nuts. They were like, bro, shut up. You're going to lose all your money. He's crazy. Weird dude.

You're crazy. I think once Top Shot came out and they saw the league was partnering with you know a crypto company and not just accepting like the the naming rights for for a stadium right but they were actually like building product on in crypto and everybody started saying okay what is this like how can we get involved let's talk about it all that stuff so it really sparked the conversation because i think they had their comfort level went so much higher by seeing that. Yeah, it was really the perfect transition, I think, especially for athletes. But then you saw like every athlete and celebrity in the world.

There was this sort of bubble period where it was like, we just got to make an NFT, man. And they all flopped. Unfortunately, yeah. I mean, there is the make NFT a water bottle craze. Like, yeah, everybody was it was a euphoric and that happens with new markets all the time where you have like everybody you know rushing to a market and you know because some of these are the first nfts you know publicly available or known about they have some sort of value right you could argue that the fourth entity ever created could have been a picture of a shoe

but it was still the fourth entity created depending on how you justify the value but over time the ways in which creators or people or mentors of entities justified value started to kind of dissipate because it was cash grabby, like people were just trying to do it for the sake of doing it. Scarcity is great, but you still need demand. Yeah, I've got a one of one piece of lint from the floor. I got the only one, but if nobody wants it, it doesn't really matter. But I think that like that sort of bubble popping was a necessity for companies like you to build right

yeah you couldn't have you couldn't have built this while that was happening yeah yeah no i mean to your point right like as long as people looked at uh athletes or influencers or whatever as cash grabby or a potential scam artist and it it makes it a lot harder for the true builders um i think to your point with the bubble popping but with us being consistent and also having guys that, you know, went to Warden or have done things at high levels, it adds to our legitimacy. Yeah. So this is obviously the first iteration of what you're doing.

Like, what's the grand vision? I mean, none of us can predict what will happen in crypto in five years or ten years. You want to go on your diatribe? You want to go on your diatribe? The craziest, craziest, craziest, What is crypto? What's the world look like? What is crypto?

Yeah, he loves when I get into this. To put a long story short, you can make it long. He's preaching. He's preaching. He's giving his sermon. He said, listen. I was preaching to the team

before we got on the podcast and they told me to shut up, so I'm not going to preach. I want to talk you through. No, I mean, for me, I think everything is going to be a chip on the table i think um what blockchain can do in terms of security and transparency can kind of liquefy the world in a sense so i think at some point in time i'll be able to trade social tokens for watch nfts for you know board apes for houses for cars for all that stuff and there there will probably be some level of Oracle system.

A couple layer ones will probably rise to the top and meet a cream of the crop, maybe like three or so. And the financial infrastructure will change and how we view value will change. And we'll go back to a more traditional like barter system. Whereas now, like we're relying on fiat currencies. And obviously we've seen the destabilization of those the inflation in those i think that value is going to come back down to supply and demand like you said lent will have value a one-of-one watch probably will you know what i mean and if i make if my if i have an nft or whatever tied to that watch and obviously securely stored in a

vault or whatever and i'm able to move that nft around i can trade it for a house deed and and you know when they burn that NFT or whatever it is, then that watch is shipped to them, et cetera, et cetera. And I just think that the world is going to kind of go back to a more traditional

kind of barter system based on security and transparency of blockchain. And we'll see what one world store of value ends up reigning supreme, whether it's something that they create soon

or whether it's Bitcoin. You could ask him who's going to win the nba finals he would much rather talk about that all the time in terms of watching tonight in terms of galaxy and stuff like that and taking that because you know these big visionary big picture kind of guy large large dreams i think we want to be the standard for personal monetization, right? Like we want to be the fidelity, the vanguard. We want to be the spot where a content creator has all the freedom in the world to monetize their communities and connect with their communities

in ways they previously haven't. And I think the world that we currently live in is so painstakingly centralized to the point where it actually impacts people's ability to do this or become content creators in the first place. And so I think enabling them with the tools to do so, you know, initially, you know, we created this use case or this sort of, you know, web three version of these cameo, Patreon, these creator centric platforms, you know, ultimately the vision of that is, you know, that's just one use case.

That was what we saw to be a big opportunity within the influencer and creator economy space, which is social media and interactions, to use social tokens. But in the future, there could be tons of other use cases that could be built and eventually other things

that we could find or ideas for the way this technology could be impactful. So the grand vision is you tokenize everything. I mean, that's really right. Give people, the creators the ability to do so. But not just things, right? And when you say everything, I literally mean like talent, right?

So when we talk about the social tokens, the building of communities, like it revolves around that, whatever makes that person unique and special. And I think that those same utility tokens, the building of communities, it revolves around whatever makes that person unique and special. And I think that those same utility tokens, those same talent-based tokens will be able to be traded for something like a house at some point in time. I agree. Why not?

If it was a contract, why is it not music artists' royalties? Well, all that's relevant in any transaction is what's of value to the person who's transacting. Barter system. Why does it, if I see the value in what you're offering and you want my house and maybe I just don't care about my house so much. I don't know how I'm trading my house. No, no, but in general though, like you said, that's why I say old school bartering system, right? Because if I had 15 goats, right, and you had, I don't know, three buckets of water, but I'm starving.

I mean, not starving, but dehydrated, I'm thirsty. thirsty well I might give you a goat for for a bucket of water yeah I'm saying and there we go and because you want to go and I want the water I'm cool with that it's not in the government to say not at that goats $100 but that water is only $2 like so you can't do that bro if he don't give me the water I'm gonna die you can had a goat this goat tastes terrible yeah tried it I mean that and that makes perfect sense listen I don't I agree with that vision I see that sort of as a parallel rail to the existing system right I don't think we ever personally

go to a full barter system I I think, government, but there's no reason that should not exist for the people who want it. And everyone seems to forget that the whole ethos of crypto in the first place was that, I don't know, two billion people in the world don't even have bank accounts. And can't transact at all. Exactly.

Right, so isn't that the complete point of all of this is to give financial access to people that don't have it? Yeah. And now you're able to actually monetize the talent. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when you think about it, there's two obviously for us personally, we're focused on the entertainment industry. But obviously, as being Web3 individuals ourselves, like the visions are somewhat aligned. It's about empowerment of one's platform and not being, you know, at the whim of anybody or of any centralized entity or anybody else as well. So, like, when you think about, you know, two billion people don't have access to a bank account, that's true. And, like, you asked me earlier on, like, how did I take this dive into that?

So, like, I have a West African background. Like, I can understand that. Like, the banking system in the U.S. is not reflective of the world. So like the premise and the promise of blockchain was way more clear to me than it might have been to some of my peers on Wall Street at the time. Right. Like you can go to a place in other parts of the world where you don't have a bank 20 miles around from you. So you literally don't use the bank system anyway. So like all you need is a phone and access and empowerment. You guys use the term in passing that I've never heard and I want an explanation, Web 2.5.

We actually just started talking about that not too long ago but if you want to. I would love to hear what that means to you. We'll license it to you. I mean, I'll license it, I'll put it on a jersey. I mean, when you think about Web 2.5, I think it's the idea that blockchain Web 3.0 is not accessible to the majority of people out there. And the best technologies that we've ever come upon in humanity are ones that were easy to use and created a convenience factor that previously wasn't afforded.

The user experience is awful. Exactly. The crypto user experience is terrible. That's come up in half the podcasts I record. And that's going to be a huge deterrent to people who don't want to learn new things because people are resistant to change, right? There actually was a point in time when people, when they needed a car, like when you leave here, you're calling an Uber, right? There was a time that you would stand out there and hope a taxi drove by

or you called one directly to you know come and get you right but then somebody had the crazy idea of like let me create an application where i can call a complete stranger to get in their car and go where i'm going and it was met with a ton of resistance at the beginning um and because when that first the first iteration of that people didn't have iphones they didn't have it failed yeah so that like it's that another moral of that is that there's great ideas that have been way too early because the technology didn't have iPhones. They failed. Yeah. So another moral of that is that there's great ideas that have been way too early because the technology didn't exist. Exactly. And so when you think about Web3, it's just amazing, unbelievable technology that hasn't been

tapped into yet. And so when we think about us as a consumer facing product, like we're talking about influencers, celebrities, people that are going to monetize their communities, we don't want them to have to think too much about us. We don't want them to think about this any differently than any other platform that they might use. And so the user experience is super key and important. And so you've got to meet the people where they're at. So like Web 3 right now talks about get a MetaMask.

You've already lost everyone right there. We've already lost people coming into it. But when you have something where you create a user experience that sits in between two and three, has enough of an infrastructure, and, you know, obviously the Web3 ethos is no control, no structure, nothing like that, everyone for themselves, that's not going to fit with the people that are accustomed to a centralized world. And they don't know that centralization means bad.

People in Web3, you know, may think so, may not, whatever, but most people in the everyday world are comfortable with centralization because they feel comfortable having somebody at the bank insure their money's there, like self-custody and all these types of things. So it's like, as builders early on in the space, we want to be additive and we want to be leaders in creating those initial standards

that help service larger like people like portions of people that previously might not be involved in technology do you guys start by recruiting huge influencers that you know sort of to get the initial hype going or to get an initial user base or is this something that anyone can sign up for anytime and attempt to monetize their talent or perhaps lack thereof i mean in terms in terms of the app, like our vision long term is for anybody to be able to monetize themselves. Right. But it would be wrong of us, right, not to reach out to our network and tap into influencers because like he played D1 football. I obviously play in the NBA. So, you know, our network's pretty vast when it comes to those

things. So I mean, those are the people we targeted for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think when you think about it, the term creator will expand and continue to grow and be all-encompassing and we can all be creators. I think when you think about those, you know, builders need to really have a defined vision on what they set out to be. I think the beauty of what we've built and I guess like our partnership has been great is that we know exactly what we are and what to want what we want to be and I think a lot of times in the problem with web3 there aren't that many focused projects because then you can turn into you can go down the yeah exactly you can go down the rabbit hole about what about this this this and this and why is it arbitrary like and you can do that type of stuff whereas like we kind of know that the market

we're trying to serve is that top 10% of somebody with their influence, their fans, and their following, right? And that we're a premium product for that. So we're not trying to be Facebook. We're not trying to be Instagram. Don't try to be Facebook. You know, we're not trying to be any of those. We know exactly what we're trying to be,

and we want to be that sort of level two application that's for a deep knit community. And then for the end user, we want them to feel like it is familiar, like those apps. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, UX UI is the topic for another day, but that's the biggest problem that crypto has. I can't wait to use it and check it out.

I appreciate everything you guys are doing and for you taking the time. So thank you, man. Appreciate you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you haven't already left a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please do that now. Spotify just added ratings. So please go ahead and click

that five star. I'll see you guys next time.