The Wolf Of All Streets - Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins | Ledger CEO Pascal Gauthier

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

Are you storing your coins in a software app on your phone? They are as good as gone. Chairman and CEO of Ledger, Pascal Gauthier, explains why. We dive deep on crypto security and the importance of education, explain why you don’t actually need to understand the tech of Bitcoin to get involved safely, and how we in Bitcoin are building a brighter, happier world.  JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER 📩 https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS ►► Vauld is a Smart Investing Crypto Platform which allows the user to invest without any stress! With Vauld, you can earn free passive income in crypto. Vauld lets you earn the highest interest rates in the crypto industry - 12.68% on stablecoins and 6.7% on BTC and ETH.. Sign up below and get a 40% kickback on trading fees, 5% commission on interest payouts and 5% commission on loan interest. Vauld’s ‘Buy the Dip’ function automatically purchases specific cryptocurrencies for you when the price dips below a pre-set level. It’s awesome! Sign up here: http://thewolfofallstreets.info/vauld ►► Ready to scale your big idea? Business banking with Mercury makes it easy. FDIC-insured bank accounts, unlimited virtual cards, free wire transfers, and more—all in one simple-to-use Interface. Sign up for a free Mercury account online in just minutes and get better business banking. Go to thewolfofallstreets.info/mercury to sign-up today. EPISODE LINKS Production & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/ FOLLOW SCOTT MELKER • Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets • Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io • Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe • Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3FASB2c

It's a brighter world. It's a better world. People are happier in the world of Bitcoin than they are in the other world. This podcast is sponsored by Mercury and Vauld. Please stay tuned for more information on both of these amazing companies later in the episode. Not your keys, not your coins, something that the Bitcoin community has been saying for years, but no less true today than it was in the past. I just interviewed Pascal Gaultier, who is the CEO of Ledger, and he went as far as to say that if your coins are sitting on your phone or in a non-custodial wallet, they're as good as lost already. He's gonna tell you why.

Were you in Bitcoin 12 years ago? I was in Bitcoin eight years ago. 2014, is that eight years? Yeah, it's about eight years. Eight years, yes. And how'd you discover it? So it's a story where I was in advertising technology and we just listed my previous company at the NASDAQ,

it's called Credio, and we listed for between two and three billion dollars. And then I had enough with advertising and so I sort of went into sort of soul searching and I was trying to figure out like what to do with my life in general and more in particular with business in my life. And I was an entrepreneur in residence at Index Ventures and I stumbled upon Bitcoin.

They keep, they started to talk about Bitcoin here, Bitcoin there, like 2013 and at the beginning I didn't really get it. And one day I met with Wences from Zappo who was the guy who probably convinced the most people to join crypto at the time and he was presenting at this index conference and then I got to talk to him and he was amazing and he had crocodile boots and I was like okay this is what I want to do. I want to be doing this with people that have crocodile boots. You know, I thought the crazy people will go to, I mean, the fun people will go, the party will go to Bitcoin.

It was obvious. And so that's when everything started for me. That's a pretty big decision and change, especially at that time. It was a really nascent industry to sort of commit to that. Sure. But, you know, for me, I don't know. I don't have that type of fear. Like I like to, if I see something that I really like and I feel passionate about, like, you know, I don't really, of course there is always a risk

and et cetera. And when I was talking about Bitcoin at the time, everybody was looking at me like, okay, like whatever. My wife said to me oh my god you're so clever I'm like why I'm like because it's Bitcoin bullshit it's probably not going anywhere but like you are the guy you're always the guy at the party who's got the funny story so it's like why you do nothing it's an interesting way of doing nothing because you pretend you do something interesting but my wife got Bitcoin very quickly as well. And, you know, and then it became or actually took a long time to become obvious. I'll just say it's not just a funny story anymore. Now you can sit down with anybody

and they'll take you seriously. Oh, it's amazing. No. And plus the way it was great is like when you go through all these things, when you go through the resilience phase and you get to where we are today, then it's really cool because you remember all these times where it was very hard and people didn't believe and people rejected your ideas and you were like, no, but it makes sense, right? Like, you know, believe me or, you know, think about it, et cetera. And people are like, no, no, no. Recruiting people in 2014 when I started my own company,

Kaiko, it's a market data company that is running right now. Recruiting people was impossible. I'm a good recruiter, but I wouldn't meet people and I was like, okay, Bitcoin this, Bitcoin that, and people are like, okay, no, next. Now it feels like everybody is trying to transition. It's like the gold rush.

Even, I mean, the most conservative Wall Street, I mean, maybe those type of people are just looking for the next way to 100x instead of 2x, right? And so they want in on the gold rush. But it's incredible to see sort of this mass migration into the Bitcoin space. Correct. And, you know, it's mass migration, not just from this financial anger or, you know, like people coming from the financial community onto Bitcoin it's also everywhere like people from media people from the people from web to basically digital people they're thinking now okay now we want I want to come and I'm having more and more meetings with people like okay I got no experience I don't know nothing but you know this is

this is where I want to go and sort of like the attitude that I had in 2013-14 was like I know nothing but I want to I want to go. And sort of like the attitude that I had in 2013, 14 was like, I know nothing, but I want to go because this feels right. And so at the time we were just a few and now we are, you know, sort of millions. And, you know, that's how crypto wins in the end, I think. It's like by convincing, you know, hundreds of millions of people that actually just the hockey stick and then we're too big to fail. Yeah, basically. And it's happening now. There's been an interesting trajectory, obviously, with security.

Very, very distinct, not your keys, not your coins ethos in the early days. Now we're getting that adoption that you're talking about, but most of those people probably are just leaving their coins on the platform where they buy them, right? Actually, I think data suggests otherwise. Really? Yeah. Good. No, no, I think so.

Like, you know, look, if all of this is to leave coins on Coinbase, let's not do it. Why would we do that? Like, you know, this is just pure speculation. And for me, this is not why I signed to do this. I signed to do this for a purpose that is larger than this. It's not just to have yet another bank and yet another speculative asset. It's about freedom. It's about empowering people. It's about bringing communities into a more inclusive financial system. I mean, everything that we said about crypto and Bitcoin from the beginning is becoming real right now.

But the problem with crypto at the beginning is like, it's a weak tech, hard tech problem. Crypto is hard tech. The protocols, what we do at Ledger, the hardware, the security, these are very hard problems to solve. And I think there are two things that are happening. One, there is a market that thinks about the top line

and wants to grow, grow, grow on this phenomenon. And then there are companies and developers that are working on the real problem, like the real long-term scalability. Think about Lightning, for example. I remember being at Scanning Bitcoin in Hong Kong back in, I think it was 15 or something like that. I might be wrong with my date, so please don't judge me if it's the case but something like that

where I think lightning and you know it's scalability of Bitcoin it's getting Bitcoin obviously scalability of Bitcoin was a big topic of the day and I didn't I'm not a I don't have like a strong technical background I'm not developer myself so I understood like 10% of what was going on but I was lucky enough to be with with some of my guys that that are more technical and they were explaining to me what and and now in 2022 and what was discussed in 2015 is barely rolled out that's crazy and so it takes seven years to go from an idea, consensus to, and seven years, we're not even at scale with Lightning or most of the taproot, etc. Most of the evolution of the recent evolution of the Bitcoin protocols or those evolutions were discussed and decided already seven years ago. Is that a problem that we're getting this sort of hockey stick of mainstream adoption, but the infrastructure will still be struggling to chase?

No, I think when you look at, when you read books about the gold rush, etc., it always happened that way. First you go, you get the crazy people and you don't have the right tools, etc., and eventually the industry matures. So I think you need those times of rumble where people are people are focused on time or the people I think focus on building etc what I feel is that in the end people that do the right thing will succeed and I think you know the story of Bitcoin is this it was interesting you know the the block size war you know right of course very interesting and so you know clearly

we've seen how that's played out yeah Yeah, exactly. Now we've seen the movie, and so we know where we are, et cetera. But only time tells. And so I think people that want to build real technology, et cetera, you know, will win over time. And what we're focused on at Ledger is to focus on that hard tech problem.

So how do we make this technology revolution into a business-to-consumer product? For a long time, Bitcoin has been business-to-geeks, and we need to go from business-to-geeks to business-to-consumer. And that problem hasn't been solved yet. I would argue that everything that is a custodian is not helping. I mean, it's not helping. It is helping in the form that it is right now. It is certainly useful for certain things,

but this is not what this is about. And actually we discovered with NFTs and with what's coming next, that if you don't own your private keys, there's many functionalities that would make no sense. Imagine email on web three. I got an email yesterday from Barry Silber telling me to wire, I don't know,

like a million dollars in Bitcoin to a weird address. And of course it was not Barry Silber because that's a web two mail and mail is broken. Every security person that you can talk to will tell you that mail is a broken protocol when it comes to security. Web three mail, when I know with certainty that Barry Silber sent me the email,

okay, that's a different story. That can only happen if you have your private keys. But there are some use cases that are coming our way right now with Web3 where if you don't have your private keys, you just cannot use it. You can't participate. You can't participate. Lightning is something like that too.

If you don't have your private keys, you can't participate in Lightning is something like that too. If you don't have your private keys, you can't participate in Lightning. It's really interesting. So then what does, for Ledger, right, obviously what are you guys planning in advance of seeing that future? We're actually, we're developing the tech for to enable that future.

I mean, if you think about web revolutions, web revolutions always have hardware. The industry has been focused on software too much, and actually it's okay because the developers that know how to develop software are not the same engineers that you need to develop hardware. And so, you know, the white paper was amazing, Satoshi Nakamoto, the vision, et cetera, was amazing,

but you can't know everything. Of course. And what you don't know, what the paper doesn't say, or it's like, how do you secure those private keys, and what technology do you need to secure the private keys? And it's okay because these are, it's different type of engineering. It's sort of a zero to one.

You did zero to one and now let everybody figure it out. Correct. Lightning is how we figure it out. Correct. Lightning is, you know, how we figure it out, et cetera. And so it's our role to figure out, like, what's the hardware platform that you actually need to connect to Bitcoin, Web3, and all of this. Because without hardware security, you have no security. People that think that you can secure, if you have your coins on a software app on your phone, non-custodial, your coins are as good as gone. Okay? My team can... Explain that. Because your phone has not been designed for security. You have a market for what's called zero days exploits, where it's actually you buying flows that have not been patched yet

by the manufacturers where you can enter the phone at the operating system level and So as soon as you're into the operating system everything that sits on top of the operating system you can extract everything And so this summer summer, sorry summer 21. You had this thing called Pegasus and Pegasus is worse than everything is zero day zero click exploit. Meaning that if I have your phone number and I pay for the hack that let me enter your phone, then I can extract everything that is on your phone,

so including your private keys if you have private keys on your phone. And if you have a non-custodial wallet on your phone, means that the private keys are on your phone and so I can take them from you. Nobody knows that. Everybody knows that. We document, I mean. No. But Nobody knows that. Everybody knows that. We document, I mean.

No. But nobody knows that. You know what I mean? Yes. You know what I mean? Your average person, listen, we just saw a report from Gemini that said maybe 20% of Americans own crypto of some sort,

and 45% of those people bought it in 2021 for the first time. That 45% probably has not gone that far down the rabbit hole to understand the security vulnerabilities of their phone. No, you're right. And so, 100% right. And so it's our job now to do two things, education, explain and what not.

Education comes fast when you lose coins. Like, you know, when people get hacked. Yeah, the first hack should be your last, hopefully. Should be your last. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice. So we see so many people coming to us with horrible stories, and then they switch to Ledger for good, forever. Right.

But it's also our job at Ledger to design the hard technology to enhance the experience. And so, because if you think about hardware and the way that you've used the web, you had your computer at home, you had your laptop, now you had your iPhone, et cetera. Like every hardware evolution has made the experience, the journey easier and more intuitive.

Right now, your iPhone is almost like an extension of your brain and your hands. It works so nicely. Ledger has to design products that will feel like that. Right now I think the product is strong, I think it's really good, I think it works well. The feedback that we're getting from users is increasingly more positive, meaning that we're really working on security, of course, but ease of use. But the products that we're working on for the future course but ease of use but the products

that we're working on for the future are products that will feel like an iPhone experience in the sense maybe some of the look and feel but more in the sense of the experience like it will be very natural and so you won't need to go through the hoops that you have to go through today to connect to your Web3 experience. Now, right now, you need to have a ledger. Sometimes you need to have a MetaMask. You need to pair your MetaMask with your ledger. And then sometimes you can't get this transaction to sign,

but that's because of something that's happening on your computer. We've all been down this. Yes. It's still really, really early is what that tells me, but it's still difficult. And so my team sometimes tells me, oh, have you tried this new thing? Or Ian Rogers, my partner in business, is like, oh, do you want to meet this new thing on Tezos? I'm like, no. I'm like, let's design the product that makes it easy for me to do this.

Because honestly, right now, I don't have the time to go this, do that, et cetera. Like, I'm in crypto. I'm the CEO of Ledger. Some of the stuff to me is just like too hard. Like, I don't want it. to go this, do that, etc. Like I'm in crypto. I'm the CEO of Ledger. Some of the stuff to me is just like too hard. Like I don't want it. Like, you know, that's not what I want. So I'm designing the products for myself, actually, to be able to use it and to be able to participate.

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dip actually comes, nobody buys it because they're scared. Well, you can automate that process now with Vauld. Guys, this platform is absolutely incredible. It does everything. They're backed by Pantera and Coinbase Ventures. You really can't ask for anything more. And if you use the link right down below, you get a 40% kickback on trading fees, 5% commission on interest payouts, and 5% commission on loan interest. Guys, sign up right now at thewolfofallstreets.info slash VAULD. That's V-A-U-L-D. Do it now, seriously. It's interesting. We'll get there on the product, and I'm assuming that you're thinking about this, but it's one thing to make a usable product that's intuitive. I think actually your products are pretty intuitive if you're literally willing to spend five minutes to

secure it. Correct. Problem is then I write down my keys, I throw them in my thing, it burns down, I lose it, I forget. It's the education I think that's so challenging of what to do now that you've got the coins on any wallet. Yeah, but also this needs to disappear. So our job is to make sure that you don't become the single point of failure. Yeah, I don't even want to think about my private keys. Yes. And so we are solving, we are developing.

There are things that I cannot completely share today, but we are solving for that problem. Like the problem of like, where are my 24 words, et cetera. So, okay, this should always exist. Like if you want to have your 24 words, you should always be in a position to have them. Because I think this is your ultimate freedom. Crossing the border, memorize your 24. Exactly, very important.

Now, if you want an option where you own your private keys, but you don't need to worry about the 24 words, that's going to be possible very soon. We're going to announce it this year, and the product is going to be amazing. And it's going to solve for a lot of people that come and tell me, it's like, look, I'd love to use a ledger, but I don't trust myself enough. But they're right. Yeah, I understand.

They're not wrong. I mean, we are a single point of failure. And most of the horror stories are not, I got hacked, it's I blew it. Yeah, look, and when people say this to me, I'm not bashing them, saying, like, buy a Ledger, come on, like, you know, be a man, like, you know, be a strong woman. But no, no, I'm like, look, do it, you're right. Like, if you don't feel it, if you don't feel like it, you shouldn't do it. And it's my problem now to fix this for these people. And so I think the next generation of ledger, both in terms of hardware or software and experience in general, should solve for all these pain points so more people can come and enjoy the full potential of crypto. Because if you don't have your private keys, again, you cannot enjoy the full potential of crypto.

It's literally not the point, right? Otherwise, you're just speculating. But to be real, most people who come into crypto, at least initially, even I, right, 2016 was my first exposure, the first time I bought because I was trading. I was trading other things. I heard about this amazing land of 100x gains and I had to back, even myself, I had to back into the importance and use case and, oh, wow, I need to hold my private keys. This is about sovereignty and freedom. People don't necessarily get that message message I think a lot more people are coming in because of that now because of what we're seeing in the

world but still I think most people start as speculators no but that's okay don't get me wrong I mean you know there's nothing wrong with making money right and speculation sometimes is used as a negative term when actually if you read the definition of speculation in the dictionary, it's perfectly fine. Like, you know, if you feel that your money is better protected if you put in Bitcoin, then it is speculation, but you should do it.

So there's no problem with that at all. I'm just saying that to enjoy the full potential, even of the speculation that the crypto can give to you, like you need to be able to connect your private keys to many things and tomorrow you'll be, you know, even better, I mean think about Lightning. I mean I'm very impressed with Lightning right now. Like I've seen the latest stats, I'm like what the fuck?

Like actually this really works. And people are really using it. And people are really using it and I'm thinking, okay this is transformational. I mean it's not that I was, I'm always open to new technology, et cetera. I was hoping for lightning to work, but you have to see it in live, in action,

to see if it really works. Okay, the shit works. Now, people will use lightning in the future, not because it's cool, not because of freedom, et cetera, just because it works better than anything else. Right, that's the point where it's like, I don't think about how my email works. I just use email. I don't think about how the internet or my phone works. I just use it. Lightning,

you think, could become at that level where it's just, it's this underlying layer and you're doing what you're doing. It's going to be on your ledger and your ledger will have a screen, a camera, et cetera. You're going to go into a store, boom, paid, boom, done. Let's go. And that's going to be the best experience of payment because the experience of payment right now with credit cards That's so great. Yeah, especially with the fees the fees the time, you know, and so lightning certainly you're like, okay So and and then users will be like, okay, but if I can pay faster, etc Like it actually doesn't matter to me that is Bitcoin, but like I'll do lightning or whatever It's called at the time, but that's what Jack Mahler's kind of talking about, right?

Yeah, and I agree with him but putting putting the, instead of trying to force everyone into Bitcoin, just putting everything on a superior rail. Correct. That they're familiar with. Correct, and I think, you know, his vision is, I think he's right, I like the way that he presents it, et cetera, he's a character, so he's fantastic. And, but we need to work on like solving hard tech problems to enhance the customer

journey or the citizen journey or whatever you want to call it. But people experience should be flawless. They shouldn't lose their coins. They should be easy to use, et cetera. And we should hide the protocol complexity. People say to me, I don't understand Bitcoin. I'm like, I doubt that you don't understand Bitcoin. So tell me what is Bitcoin for you? Usually I always get a good answer. It's like, so what do you mean when you say you don't understand Bitcoin? It's like, oh, I don't understand the tech. It's like, but nobody understands the tech. Nobody understands the tech of literally anything.

Anything. Ask the bankers whether they understand the... Swift. No, but honestly, nobody understands. And it's okay not to understand, like, because it's not the consumer problem. It is for us to understand the tech and to eliminate the tech difficulty, et cetera. You know, iPhone didn't invent the phone, didn't even invent web on the phone.

It just made it easy to use on the phone. Web existed before on the phone. It was WAP, it was Edge. You know, you had phones that we could surf online. It was just not a great experience. And iPhone was just like, okay, now it works. And people were like, oh my God, like, you know, I can use web on my phone. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Now, to a person coming fresh in, most basic security lesson, what can you tell them? Because we have people who are listening to this and this is the first podcast or experience

that they're having. Look, I think what's very interesting with Bitcoin is don't trust, verify. And that's the motto that everyone should have in mind. Don't trust, verify. Everything in your life, actually, don't trust, verify.

I think people use and became lazy with Web2 because everything was searched and platter everything in your life actually don't trust verify I think people people use becoming became lazy with web 2 because everything was searching on platter I was watching this show on Netflix where there are some guys now that are you know sort of unhappy with our Google and you know big tech is handling tech because the tech is being handled to actually take away people's will to even think about problems. I think what Bitcoin is and this Web3 revolution is, I think it's a chance for people to get

themselves involved again. For me, I find Bitcoin as a highly political technology. People are voting. Like they don't, maybe they don't realize, but most people are actually voting. I don't care if you buy it on a custodian, even if you don't have your private keys, you just voted for Bitcoin. And so Bitcoin has a chance to profoundly modify democracy.

So the advice for Bitcoin and or Ledger and or anything is don't trust, verify. I love it because it's been, we've been saying it forever and it's still the same message. Still the same message. And also I like what, you know, the motto that we stole and it's for Ledger, in the numbers we trust, in numbers we trust, in various veritas. Yeah. Which is amazing because people believe everything they read, it seems. And they don't care about the numbers. So don't trust the results.

That's even worse. Even if they verify, they have cognitive dissonance and it goes against their opinion, so it must be false anyways. I know. Like, that's crazy. But how do we deal with that? I mean, it's really nuts. You can be literally shown proof of something and say, nope.

Look, I think it's the movie Matrix. If you think about Matrix, people live in the Matrix today. Web 2 is the Matrix. I mean, Matrix is the most philosophical movie of all time. My mom is a philosophy teacher, et cetera, so we discussed Matrix numerous times. I read many books, et cetera. It is a highly philosophical movie. What Matrix says and what the Web 2 world is the Matrix. It's like we don't need to think anymore. Like, you know, the machines tell us what to think, where to go, etc., etc. It is the Matrix. And now you get the blue pill, red pill thing where you can extract yourself from the Matrix

and join the real world. And the thing is, as soon as you go out of the matrix, the real world is more painful. It is exactly like in the movie. You go, you're like, oh shit, and I can lose my coins. Okay, now it's my responsibility. It forces you to think about what you're doing. And so it is less enjoyable that way too. And a lot of people are like, no, but I want to stay in the Matrix. They're like, oh, you know, it's too difficult. Ignorance is bliss. But as soon as, but in the Matrix movie, actually humans that want to escape the Matrix,

and even if the world that they finally end up in is really shit, to be honest. It's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. They're still happier to be in that world because they have gained their freedom. They have personal responsibility. They're not dependent on the metrics anymore. So I think this is what's happening now. I think a big part of that is that when you take the pill, when you sort of opt out, you're

embarrassed by your former self. That's the hard part. So like, yes, it's painful, but it's also just, you can't believe, I mean, some of that comes with maturity and age, but, like, why did you care about either political party or why did you care about this thing

that your parents taught you that clearly makes absolutely no sense? It's embarrassing. It's like going to a psychiatrist and being told all the problems that you have. No, I think you're right, and I think this is why, like, oh, this is the reason why people are reluctant to change and new technologies, because sometimes it makes yourself, it makes, question yourself so much, all the point to being embarrassed by yourself. Oh

my God, I could, I was doing this before, et cetera. And now, and now there's something different, et cetera. And so people are reluctant to change up to the point that they're like, okay, you know, fuck it, etc. So now different from the matrix, I think the world that we're building is actually brighter. So the right, we're not going to go live underground in a nuclear holocaust. No. And actually, when I when I'm in Bitcoin 2022, I'm looking outside like, you know, it's fantastic. It's a brighter world. It's a better world.

People are happier in the world of Bitcoin than they are in the other world. And again, back to, you know, my story of why I joined Bitcoin. I joined Bitcoin exactly because of this. Because I thought the party would be here, the people would be happier. Because once you take the blue pill or the red pill? Anyway, once you join the... We'll call it the orange pill. The orange pill.

Once you take the orange pill, I don't know, you're just a happier person. You're more free. You're more in control. I only see happy people. So do I. So where can everybody follow you after this conversation? And, of course, see what Ledger's doing. Twitter? Twitter.

Twitter, I mean, underscore P. Gauthier, Ledger. People will find me. Yeah, we'll find you, man. Thank you. It's really a pleasure to meet in person in this beautiful new world. Beautiful new world. Thank you. Thank you so much.

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