The Wolf Of All Streets - Rabbi Explains How Bitcoin Can Better Our Lives | The Bitcoin Rabbi, Michael Caras

Episode Date: February 17, 2022

Michael Caras is an ordained Rabbi that is both a Torah and Bitcoin maximalist. His unique perspective on moral money has led him down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, earning him the nickname “The Bitcoin Rabbi.” Not only does Michael make the case for Bitcoin, he leads by example. He wrote a brilliant children’s book about Bitcon that has been widely dispersed and embraced, and he teaches others how Bitcoin can better their lives and communities. -- Arculus: Secure your assets, secure your future, with Arculus. Order the safer, simpler, smarter crypto cold storage solution today at https://thewolfofallstreets.link/arculus  Arculus is the new crypto cold storage wallet that combines the world’s strongest security protocols with an easy-to-manage app.  Store, swap, and send your crypto all with a simple tap of your Arculus Key™ card.  *Arculus promo code no longer active as of February 1, 2022 -- Bullish: Bullish is a powerful new exchange for digital assets that offers deep liquidity, automated market making, and industry-leading security. Combining the innovations of DeFi with the regulated environment of traditional finance, Bullish empowers users to trade with confidence across variable market conditions, while secure in a regulated environment that's backed by multibillion-dollar liquidity contributions from the Bullish treasury. Follow @Bullish on twitter or visit https://thewolfofallstreets.link/bullish to learn more. Not investment advice. Digital assets and cryptocurrencies are high risk products. Consult your professional advisor before dealing in them. Bullish’s services are available in select locations only and not to U.S persons. Visit bullish.com for important information and risk warnings. --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co ーーー Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members

This episode is sponsored by Arculus and Bullish. Stay tuned for more information on both of them later in this episode. What's up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, where two times every week I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, music, trading, art, sports, politics, basically anyone with a good story to tell. Now, today's guest certainly qualifies as anyone with a good story to tell. Now, today's guest certainly qualifies as someone with a good story to tell. I think this is the first time that we've had a member of the clergy on the show, the Bitcoin rabbi, not only obviously teaching Judaism,

but also wrote a book called Bitcoin Money that has been touted as a great starting point, entry point for beginners of all ages for Bitcoin. It's a children's book, but great for adults as well. And now he actually teaches both Bitcoin and Judaism and how the two interact with one another. Rabbi Kras, thank you so much for joining. It's great to talk to you. Hey, thanks so much for having me. Really glad to be here. So I think it's essential that we start with your Bitcoin journey because it's obviously an unconventional one. How did you discover Bitcoin in the first place and why did you become so passionate about it? Yeah, I mean, I don't know that it's so unconventional. I think

I probably hit it a lot similar to the way a lot of other people, you know, first heard about it in, you know, earlier days, but did not understand it at all, didn't think that it was legitimate. I kind of thought it had to do with video games. You know, I knew that there was a lot of like, wow, gold, and there were virtual currencies that people were were trading with that. And that was just not not my particular interest. So I really, um, you know, put it to the side. Um, but in the 2017 bull run, um, you know, it started to catch attention and that's when, um, it was first ever really explained to me that I ever, you know, saw more than a headline. And, uh, I had an interest in, um, in, uh, economics and monetary theory before then.

And so once it really, I got what it is and what it's trying to do and how it's trying to revolutionize finance and economics, that's when I just, you know, got, went, dove right into it. So since 2017, I, you know, try and learn as much as I can and, and teach people and just follow everything that's going on in the space. So what was it about your studies of monetary policy, fiscal policy that led you to the importance of Bitcoin? Because first you have to have an understanding of the problems with the existing system before you can have that wow moment, I think, with the solution. Yeah. So the main, I came from it from an Austrian gold bug, gold standard kind of perspective. I liked the idea of having a fixed supply. Once you really understand that and catch that, there are 21 million Bitcoin,

there will never be any more. And that you could have a financial system based off of that absolute scarcity. That I just thought was the coolest thing because I, growing up, always just was bothered by this concept of monetary inflation and of the price of everything constantly going up. Every time I'd go out somewhere with my father, you know, he would tell me, uh, you know, that when, when his father was young, it costs a 5 cents to go to a movie. And when he was young, it cost 25 cents. And when I was young, it cost 10 bucks and it just didn't seem fair to me. So that's the, from the inflation perspective. And then from the, from the aspect of censorship and censorship resistance. And I saw people who my family

comes from, you know, in previous generations from the, from the former Soviet union and from Russia and a lot of my friends and people in the Jewish community. And so I know what it means to one, live in a society where the government controls the money and controls everything that you can do and buy. And then when you want to leave that country, you know, what can you take your money with you? So that, you know, applied during World War Two and to people that live in communist countries, they really don't have control of their money. So these two aspects, you know, that Jewish people in particular have had to leave their countries and over different time periods and have been exiled and to have something that so

seems solid and seems fair and fairly built. And I just love that idea about it. I just, it seems like the right, like a good kind of money, good in the, you know, moral sense that it's, it can do, you can do good with it and it can be good for the world. It seems that we have a very simple, similar ancestry. My, my family were also Jews that emigrated from what was Russia and now is the Ukraine in the early 1900s for all of the same reasons. So that certainly resonates with me.

You don't often hear the argument about moral money and good money. I love the concept that you just breached because that's not something that I've heard really talked about on this show or beyond. What does that really mean to have money that's moral? And what's, I guess, immoral about our existing money? Well, for a person, I mean, to be fair, anytime that a person uses their money good for good things, that's good. Money is a technology.

And just like all other technologies, they can be used for good or for negative. So when people paint Bitcoin, whether it's used by this kind of person for the, for this purpose or another, uh, you know, obviously people can use it for good purposes or, or to help the world and help their families or for, you know, nefarious things. And that's always going to be the case with every kind of technology. Um, but just when something is more inherently fair, when it's built more fairly, I think that's a good thing. And that's something that we should strive for and look for in a system. I mean, we look for that in all of the systems that we work in. We want our sports to be fair. We want our government to be fair. We don't want individuals, unchecked people to have

control over those things. And so that's what Bitcoin offers with its decentralization and permissionless and open source. It just has all of those properties that I think is a great thing that someone can use either if they want to be hedging against inflation or if they are in a third world country and they don't like the way that they are censored or if they live in a first world country and they can't donate the money the way they want to, Bitcoin gives people that option that they didn't have before. You talk about the idea that we want our money to be fair, our sports to be fair, our government to be fair. And I think it's very, very clear that as a result of monetary policy, our government or certainly finance is not fair for most people.

Right. I mean, I think we have a greater divide now than ever before between the haves and the have nots. And clearly, in your opinion and mine as well, Bitcoin is one potential solution for that. So obviously, we have the wealthy people who want to store value. But how can Bitcoin actually help the people who are living paycheck to paycheck and maybe don't have savings and don't need to store value? They just need, obviously, to be you do need to better your life and better your future for your family. You do need to have savings and you need to, that needs to be also part of your culture and part of your mindset. And so the fact that we have a currency and that globally around the world, all currencies are basically built in to be debased and to lose value. I think that it makes a culture of people that don't believe in saving and don't save as much as they should. They're not putting as much planning into the future and this generation as in previous. I mean, I do, you know, I think we both live in the U.S. and live, you know,

relatively privileged lifestyles compared to most people in the world because our war bearers are, you know, they planned and they saved and they tried to push things forward for the next generation. And so even with small amounts, if you can personally, you know, put away some savings and start planning for your future, and that can be in Bitcoin or it can be in other stores of value as well. But I think Bitcoin encourages it. It has this saver culture to it, the hodler culture, which I think is a good thing that people should get used to whether they are. I mean, I know that you are, you're the wolf of all streets. So investing can, can, can be a positive thing for, for all kinds of people. But I think that more also on a societal perspective we haven't seen it wide scale yet, but I think that having a money that is deflationary, that, that gains in value, that is more fair, that allows more opportunity and more

participation and is global, is just going to be the rising tide that rises all boats. So that's what I'm hopeful for, is that it's just the more inclusiveness and more equity in a financial system will help people overall. I love it. So obviously you found out about Bitcoin. You took the orange pill, as we love to say, and went deep down that road. But then you went much further than most people, right? Many could have stopped there, used it for their personal finances, but you chose to write a book. And not only a book, with Bitcoin Money, A Tale of Bitfail Discovering Good Money, not only a book, but a children's book. Why choose to write a book for children about Bitcoin and money rather than for adults? So a lot of the, there's a few answers for that is I'm probably not qualified to write a book for

adults, being that I'm not particularly a technical expert or an economics expert or any of the other fields that have been covered by excellent authors that I've enjoyed about Bitcoin and blockchain and crypto and all that. But my expertise, I have been an elementary school, middle school teacher for the past 10 years, nine years or so. So I'm an ordained rabbi, but for most of your listeners might think that means like a pulpit rabbi. So I'm not the pulpit rabbi of my synagogue. Many people are trained as rabbis, which means that they are knowledgeable in Jewish law, in Jewish theology and philosophy, and are qualified to teach and to do research as well. So that is what I have been doing is being a teacher of Jewish subjects.

So I have that experience. I also have six children of my own. So when I got started in Bitcoin, I think I had three. Now we're up to six. But so I spent much of my time explaining Bitcoin to my kids, to my students. Whenever you're getting started with someone, you can't just throw a tome at them and talk to them about blockchain and watch their eyes glaze over. You really need to start at it very simply. And I got a lot of practice by doing that and trying to compress the ideas down. I do that as a teacher and as a parent. And between my wife and I, she's done a lot of publishing.

She's a graphic designer. So she's been experienced with this. So we kind of came together and I wrote this story and, and she did the manage the artwork and we came up with it here. I've got my, this is, I don't know if you run other things, but this is the hard cover. So I, you know, that was, the point was to just make something that it's for kids, but it's also really for adults because I've been trying to explain to my,

my father who's in the seventies about Bitcoin and he just, you know, it was so hard for him to wrap his head around it. Younger people get it more, but older people, you know, boomers have a harder time, I think. And so you have to be able to explain it to people in terms that they can understand. And, you know, so we compare it to, you know, a cell phone app and it's getting better now because the interface and the UX and experience is getting a lot better than what it was even from 2017. But that was my main motivation is to take what I know and make a starting place, a starting point

for people to get into Bitcoin in particular to understand why it's valuable, why you need a different kind of money. Because people don't really think about their money that much. They don't think about what makes the US dollars have money, what makes a credit card, what makes a check, how any of this work. They don't think about it. It just kind of works for them. And either they're using PayPal or Cash App or this, they don't really know what's behind it. Some people think there's gold backing up their money. Some people think that there's dollars in the bank,

that there's actual dollars and that their bank account means that there's a shelf with dollars stacked up. So you have to kind of think about what's value, what makes money. And that's what we introduce in the book. Such an important point because money dominates everything about our lives,

whether that's behind the scenes or very much in focus. And very few people think about what it is, even though it's a part of literally every single decision that we make. In my opinion, since March of 2020 or since the COVID crisis and since we've seen the central bank step in, I think there's been more of a general awakening on those topics, right? So when you and I found Bitcoin 2016 for me, 2017 for you, this was still sort of an under the surface idea that your average person didn't get. Have you seen being, you know, a Bitcoin enthusiast, but also, you know, being involved in the community, writing this book, have you seen an aha moment for people because of the actual macro situation since all that happened? Yeah, absolutely. There's been a huge change. And I don't know if people fully understand

why it's happening, but just the results of it, the inflation you know, the inflation, and just kind of the, I think the collapse of the politics and, and a lot, all things are going on are kind of making people just more question, you know, what is behind all of this? What's backing all of this up? How does this work? You know, they, they, when, when the dollar is stable, or when it works for people, they, they're not going to question it, they're not going to look for an alternative. But when they start to see everything around them, all the experts in all the fields of politics and economics and medicine, all of this, people are losing their faith in them, then they are going to look for alternatives. And Bitcoin is just, you know, you can predict Bitcoin is going to go to zero year after year after year, and then it's still here and it's,

you know, in 40,000. And you kind of, after some amount of time, you start to realize, maybe this isn't going away. Maybe the set is actually the most stable thing that we have in our society right now. It's going to do the same thing. I mean, that's what I love about Bitcoin. You know what it's going to do today. You know what It's going to do the same thing. I mean, that's what I love about Bitcoin. You know what it's going to do today. You know what it's going to do tomorrow. I mean, the price, I'm not a short-term price guy, but I know the protocol and the network

is going to keep on trucking and it's sort of reliability. So people see it year after year and see the alternative or the mainstream is who knows what's going to be month after month. So there is, in my personal life, I'm seeing a more open-mindedness towards Bitcoin, crypto, all of the stuff that's around this space. Have you had any luck convincing your dad finally or any of his friends to buy Bitcoin or at least to care? Oh, yeah. I mean, he bought Bitcoin. He just didn't understand it. I got him to,

you know, he's got a small allocation. And there's actually a couple of people that he knows, you know, contacting me to ask about it. And I have friends of friends who will contact me and ask for help starting up because I'm, you know, the, the Bitcoin guy, the Bitcoin rabbi in my circle of friends. So people come to me and, and you know, ask for you know on, on ramp help. So I, I do that on a regular basis. That's, that's the main thing. I guess you could say, I, I don't really work in the crypto space. I'm not a trader. I'm not, you know, involved in really any industry or business that's, that's involved with crypto, but I'm not a trader. I'm not, you know, involved in really any industry or business

that's involved with crypto, but I'm just an enthusiast and I like to teach people and help people. And that's kind of what I'm doing. A lot of it's either, you know, in DMs or in person, or just a friend of a friend will text me or something. And there's an uptick. There is a desire or a taste now for people are trying, people are looking for yield. People are looking for somewhere to put their money and to make an extra couple bucks or something because they are not comfortable with their finances and with inflation right now. Yeah, I think people are also just scared to buy stocks, in my experience, you know, sort of the and the 6040 model is obviously utterly and completely broken. I often joke

with guests, if someone gave you $5 million right now, what would you do with it? And most of them literally don't have an answer, even if they're financial experts, right. And so living in that kind of world obviously shows how important Bitcoin shows how important Bitcoin is. And I love that you talked about being in your DMs and the real people in your life and being an evangelist in that manner, because that's how this spreads. That's how you get mainstream adoption and a world full of people who believe in Bitcoin. And very few people are actually doing that work some of the time, because every time you have those conversations, you take the risk of somebody thinking you're crazy and nuts and not getting it at all. Right. So do you ever get those people

who just are utterly dismissive and tell you you're crazy? You definitely get, I wouldn't say crazy, but there's a lot of like boomer, just rejection. You know, there's a lot of, um, like boomer, uh, just rejection. You know, there's a lot of people that just are like, I don't understand it and I don't want to understand it. Um, and, and, you know, we'll, we'll see. And, you know, year after year, there's less of them because you can't be, you know, you can only be wrong. Only Peter Schiff can be wrong forever. You know, every, most people have a hard time. They're embarrassed to be wrong year after year after year to see what Bitcoin has, you know, developed in, in a short 13 years. So there's only so long you can kind of do that for most people.

But there are some that are just, I don't, for really for seniors, I'm not, I don't necessarily think it's the best thing to try and, you know, push on them or encourage even because, you know, I'm afraid they're going to, yeah, it's not going to make that big of a difference in their overall financial, lots of times, you know, seniors, either they're set financially with their, you know, life of either they're set financially with their, you know, life of, of investing and, and everything, or it's not going to make a big difference of my, you know, 80 year old grandma who's on social security is going to do it or not, not, not. So I really think that's another reason why I wanted to write a children's focused book

is because the children, the kids,, all my kids are under age 10. They're going to be, they were all born after Bitcoin was invented. They are, you know, when they, when they touch a physical book, they swipe it with their finger. They are a digital age. They're a digital native, native class of people. And they might never have a real bank accounts, you know, or they might use neobanks or half crypto banks or just, you know, hold their own hold their own keys and hold their own Bitcoin. And so those are the this next generation. They're the ones who it's going to be in 10 years when all the people who are age 30 or so were born after Bitcoin was invented. I mean, it's hard to imagine what that is going to be. Because right now, everyone who is born after Bitcoin was invented is basically under the age of 13 and they have no

money. They don't have a significant amount of wealth that it matters whether they're into crypto or not. They might not even have cell phones or anything like that. But when they are of the age, when they do have phones and they do have some money to use or invest or spend or whatever it is that they are going to be doing, that's going to be where it really is. So I know it's like a meme, but like we are so early in the big scheme of things just from an age perspective. Right. And interestingly, something that we talk about quite a bit, financial education, certainly in the United States is non-existent, right? I can Financial education, certainly in the United States, is non-existent,

right? I can say that growing up in the United States, largely in the 80s, nobody ever talked to me about money. Nobody ever talked to me about debt. Maybe, maybe at some point in high school, they taught me how to balance a checkbook, right? That was the extent of it. The super important balancing of a checkbook. Yeah, right. And you probably have a similar experience. I'm the treasurer of my synagogue. That's one of the duties that I do for our synagogue. And when I took over the job from the previous person who is a senior, he handed me the checkbooks and then showing me, this is how we balance the checkbooks. And I'm like, that's not how, you know that there's a website,

the bank has a website, and they do it for me automatically, you know, you can. And so I, he was pretty amazed. So yeah, the skills that they that they didn't teach you about, about, you know, finances and money and credit cards and all of this and what they did teach. I mean, I don't know who is in charge of those things, but I think that's an important thing for parents to know that they're going to have to help their kids understand. And hopefully some of them are. I mean, my book is not a middle school or teenage guide to finance. That might be a good idea for a next

thing for myself or for others. There probably are some good general tools there. But that's, yeah, it's something that's going to become increasingly more important. And a huge opportunity. So I was going to say, as you wrote a children's book about Bitcoin, but perhaps the secondary effect of that, intended or otherwise, is actually giving your children and other children a bit of financial education and understanding about money from the beginning, whether about Bitcoin or not, right? And so it seems like that's just hugely important to even introduce them to the idea of money and what it really is. Yeah. And say, you know, and saving the things that I talk, you know, saving, investing and

sharing and giving, you know, that having money and giving charity as well as an important thing that, you know, we talked about and just briefly mentioned in the book. And that's an important value as, you know, a rabbi and a parent that we also, you know, put that in part of the financial education, you know, for our, both for adults and for children that they have this, that you have some, you work, you get some, and you save some, and you share some. And that's a, you know, being a, just a duty as a person, as a, you know, being a just duty as a person, as a, you know, brother of mankind to help people out and not just rely that the government is going to take care of everybody, but that we as individuals have, you know, a duty to take care of people. So let's talk about the crossroads between Bitcoin and Judaism, how you teach that, how you see the two. I mean, many people would probably say they

have nothing to do with each other, religion, money, completely separate topics, and even then diving into a specific money and how it interacts with a specific religion. So what's the crossroads there? So I look at it a few ways. There's some is, I just look in the Torah and see where we talk about money, where money is mentioned. So there are a few times where there are financial transactions that occur. There's collections of money. And so, you know, when I'm giving my classes that I do, I have a presentation called Bitcoin and Judaism. You know, we kind of go through both the primary texts of the Torah

and then commentaries where various places talk about money. So when in a certain place, it says to love God with all of your might means with all of your money, that all of your money should be for the purpose of, you know, of serving God and for love of God and for, for his purposes. So that's one place, um, Abraham buys a cave and he does a financial transaction. They, they, uh, kind of haggle on the price. Uh, so I, I walked through some of those things and then we talk about, you know, what is, um, you know, what is money described as? So in some, in some cases, financial transactions in, in Judaism were, were done with cattle. And so I talk about the idea of, of ancient types of money, forms of money. You know, we know that there was the rye stones and there's cattle and

there's beads and there's salt and, and various different forms of ancient types of money that developed. And silver and gold were really the ones that became both. writings through the Torah and the Talmud, really actually silver became the common denomination of money because, you know, it's much harder to go around. People think of gold as money. That's seemingly a more modern idea. And it's also more of a macro being when you talk about gold, you're talking about governments. But when a person goes, you can't buy a cup of coffee with a gold coin. It's just it's too expensive and it's always been too expensive. So we go through some aspects like that, where the Talmud talks about gold and silver and different types of coins and coinage when that started to apply. And then how money applies in Jewish law today. There's financial transactions that occur, like I said, at tzedakah charity and weddings

and certain religious procedures involve transfers of money. So we kind of look at, does it need to be coins? Does it kind of be dollars? Can you write a check? Can you use Bitcoin? And there are kind of technical things. I don't always have a full answer for that because I'm just one person and there are greater rabbis than I that that probably have their own opinions about it. But I like to at least look into those. So those are kind of the technical things.

And then I just talk about the general idea of a blockchain. And there's an interesting comparison that if you, the way that Judaism works is that it started really with the patriarchs, with Abraham and then Moses, and there's this chain of descent that it's actually in Hebrew called the chain of descent. I just thought that that was such a fascinating thing that there's really is this consensus mechanism that goes generation after generation, block after block. And I kind of step through point by point how I think that there's a comparison between those. And what's the real significance of that?

I just find it fascinating. And I'm not the only person who is a rabbi or has looked at this that have found and come across that same interesting comparison of how the decentralization works, how the consensus works, how the blocks and progress of it. And that's just something that spurs a lot of interesting conversation for whenever people look at that for the first time. So we've seen companies like MicroStrategy and Tesla, of course, and more recently KPMG add Bitcoin to their balance sheet. You're the treasurer of your synagogue. Do you guys have Bitcoin on your balance sheet? The synagogue does not have on its balance sheet.

It's a quite, I wish that our balance sheet was a little more balanced and a little more. And more robust, of course. Anyone who's a religious organization, right? Of course. Yeah, that's kind of the thing. I mean, even I have kind of a mixed feeling when religious organizations or charitable organizations ask to collect in Bitcoin or crypto, because a lot of times they will do so, you know, to try and get, you know, attention or try to be cool and hip. But most of the time, they are just immediately dumping it. And I think they often are converting it because

I think that they have that fiduciary duty to their, you know, that they're not in the business of speculating on crypto prices. And so they have that duty from their, you know, from their boards or whatever it is. And so when a charity asks me for, you know, a Bitcoin donation, unless there are some times where if it's international or there's some reason why it's really beneficial to do so, I'd rather generally give fiat because I know that it's just cutting out a step. If I wanted to sell Bitcoin and give it to them, I would do that myself instead of giving it to them so they can sell it and do it. That's usually my feeling on, you know, nonprofits and their, you know, investing, but some larger places do have, you know, they do have investment strategies. And I think that would be a, you know, good thing like colleges do and large organizations, but that's not, that's not my small town synagogue for you. Guys, I'm so excited to tell you about this

new crypto cold storage solution called Arculus. Their cold storage technology keeps your crypto keys off the internet and on an Arculus key card with no cables and no USB connections. It insulates you from the thousands of hacking attempts that happen online every single day. You can store, swap and send your crypto all with a simple tap of your Arculus key card. And if someone were to get a hold of your card, it doesn't even matter because they have three-factor authentication ensuring that the only person with access to your crypto is you.

Guys, you can check out Arculus at thewolfofallstreets.link slash Arculus. That's A-R-C-U-L-U-S. Secure your assets, secure your future with Arculus. Have you ever been trading crypto and during bouts of high volatility had your exchange go completely offline or seen the order books go thin and have absolutely no liquidity for your trade? I know that you have. It's happened to every single crypto trader,

but it's not an issue anymore thanks to Bullish. Bullish is a powerful new exchange for digital assets that offers deep liquidity, automated market making, and industry-leading security. Combining the innovations of DeFi with the regulated environment of traditional finance, Bullish empowers users to trade with confidence across variable market conditions while secure in a regulated environment that's backed by multi-billion dollar liquidity contributions from the Bullish treasury. Follow at Bullish on Twitter or visit thewolf of all streets dot link slash bullish to learn more. Not investment advice, digital assets and cryptocurrencies are high risk products. Consult your professional advisor before dealing with them. Bullish's services are available in

select locations only and not to U.S. persons. Visit the wolf of all streets dot link slash bullish for important information and risk warnings. Yeah, there's a I donated to a charity called Charity Water, which provides clean water around the world. I had their CEO on the show and they have what's called a Bitcoin Charity Trust, where they've dedicated to any Bitcoin that's donated to be held for five years through the next halving cycle. Then I understand it. But as you said, that's the only time I gave Bitcoin to that because I believed it would appreciate over five years and it would be a more meaningful donation. But there's no reason to sell my Bitcoin to make a donation. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I gave to that as well. I think that's a great idea. You know, that's I think that is something I bet we're going to be seeing more of those kind of things over the coming years. I'm glad that you've heard of that,

because it was really the first compelling case where I said it makes more sense to do this with Bitcoin than to just take it, than to give the money, taxable transactions and all the implications of doing anything with your Bitcoin obviously are always complicated in the United States regardless. Does Bitcoin itself and the Bitcoin community ever feel like a religion in and of itself to you? Because a lot of people have said that there've been articles in Bloomberg about how Bitcoin is a religion. Well, I've heard that. I think it's a borrowed term. I mean, as a person that's deeply religious, and for me, what my religion means is it's essential to my being, to my soul. You know, it's something that is really entirely who you are. And a hobby is, or a passion, they might overlap in some aspects. You have, they have symbolism.

There is, I mean, it's like, is sports a religion? I mean, there's, there people are really, so I just think that it's, that people are using the term in somewhat of a derogatory sense, because they are, you know, trying to say that it's, you know, cult-like or something. I think people are enthusiastic. People get enthusiastic about all kinds of things, about, about their, about their hobbies in a various range of things. And people are passionate about it. I think the most people that are the most passionate about Bitcoin and crypto in general are not just because they believe that it's going to be financially beneficial to themselves

personally, but because they believe that it's going to be beneficial to the world. And that is where the passion comes from. And you can't say that about most other hobbies people have, even if you're a really passionate into politics, one side or another, or this or that, you know, your individual involvement is doesn't have that great of a, you know, especially you're, you know, tweeting, whatever on the internet doesn't have that great of a you know especially you're you know tweeting whatever on the internet doesn't have that big of an effect but you being involved in crypto does in some sense every you know every person that's involved that is literally what you know raises the raises the whole market cap it is what makes it more widespread. And every time you teach someone else about it or do any kind of transaction, you are spreading it more. So you are having an effect.

So I understand the enthusiasm. I think a lot of the stuff is fun and the memes and stuff. I don't think people complain about the, you know, tribalism or toxicity. I think it's not comparatively, it's not more so than any other industry of anything. I mean, politics is so much more divisive and toxic. Even sports can be divisive and toxic and, and, and, you know, different other different interests people can have can arise that. I think it's more of a phenomenon about social media and Twitter than it is about crypto,

you know, in particular. So that's my answer. There's a lot of overlaps when you have people that are passionate in an interest and a hobby. There are, you have got, you know, tribalism and memes and team colors and mascots and slogans and things like that. But that's not really an inherent to a religion.

Religions just also have those things because they're people that are deeply passionate about it. So I would say there's that overlap. But, you know, as a religious person, I know very and a religious person and a person deeply passionate about about Bitcoin. I know the difference between the two. So I wouldn't say that it is a religion. So that's pretty long winded answer. But I feel like I just say that, obviously, you are maybe the most qualified person I've had to say it. So that's perfect. That said, obviously, we have a tribalism, as you said, but certainly a passion about Bitcoin and what it can be.

And it can be a bit hyperbolic, right? There's people believe that Bitcoin will eat the world financial system. It will become the global reserve currency. A lot would have to happen in the world for that to happen. Actually, in fact, you could make the argument that the world would probably be a much worse place if that had to happen. What kind of world will we be living in if the existing systems collapsed and we were on a Bitcoin standard? But do you believe that Bitcoin can effectively become the global reserve currency moving forward? Yeah, I think that's a realistic

idea. I think that in some way or another, I don't know what that looks like exactly. I don't know which fiat currencies will continue. I mean, it's hard to imagine that like the Lebanese currency is going to continue to exist. Not in its current form. So they may make another one and start it over. Or maybe at some point they use a Bitcoin or a Bitcoin pegged thing or a dollar pegged cryptocurrency or something like that. So I'm not sure what form it's going to take. But I think that the growth rate is, you know, on a generally inevitable path that Bitcoin particularly, but crypto and stable coins and all of that are on a inevitable path of growth and a widespread adoption.

If Bitcoin becomes worth, yeah, that's two or three million dollars, if Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency, you'd probably be exceptionally wealthy. You're also obviously a rabbi. What would you do with the money? You know, no one ever says how much Bitcoin they have, but I'll just tell you, I'm a rabbi and an elementary school teacher that first bought any sizable amount of Bitcoin at the December 2017 top. Of course.

I don't think. Everyone did. I don't think I'm the one that buys the top every single time every every time you know from from december 2017 till now i i like i can sense it's a top and i'm like i gotta get on that top and and you know yeah i mean no one somebody's gotta buy the top i mean that somebody's got to do it so uh i i don't really like I think so little about about that. Like I like I said, if I if the main interest for me was becoming wealthy, one, I wouldn't be in the business that I'm in. And two, I would probably be spend a lot more time, you know, following your trade calls and and getting in and out of the altcoin businesses.

But I feel comfortable holding Bitcoin, and I feel comfortable knowing that my children will have the Bitcoin. So I guess I'll have to ask them what they're going to do with it. Because I live in a very comfortable life, you know, in, in the United States. And if I, if I never had Bitcoin I would probably be fine, you know, relatively fine. So I've got no, no big plans. I'm probably going to need, you know, we've got six kids, so I do need large vans to get us around from place to place. So if Tesla

ever makes, you know, a 15 seater van, I might get one of those. But other than that, I'm a pretty, you know, pretty humble, as far as our, you know, finances. But those are the people that we need to be wealthy, right? The people that the world needs to have wealth are the ones whose lives are not dedicated to accumulating the wealth and have, you know, charitable intentions and a good heart. Well, there, you know, I think that is, there's a, you know, there's all different types of people in Bitcoin. But that's another thing is that I really want to make people understand that, you know, Bitcoin really is for, you know, the average family man or, you know, a single mother or for a teenage kid or for, you know,

a person living in a third world country that maybe can do work, you know, online and can be paid internationally, that it's not just, I think that in 2017, there was this stereotype that Bitcoiners were either computer geek, like far out anarchists or drug people or the hyper financial, you know, VC kind of that kind of thing that there were motifs of people that were into crypto. And I by being a public, you know, family man rabbi that likes Bitcoin, I am trying to get that message out that, you know, it really is just, you know, for the average person can involve themselves here and find some value for themselves and their family. Yeah, I love that message because Bitcoin really is for everyone. And like we touched on earlier, yes, there's very wealthy people who want to use it as a hedge against inflation to protect their portfolios against the dollar.

But your average person, that's not what they care about, right? They care about saving some money for their kids so that their kids can do better than they did. And it's my belief that Bitcoin is the best way to do that, right? But it's hard to get that message across when they're talking about drug dealers and criminals. Yeah. I think the best use case is to give it to kids when they're or start an account for a kid when they're born or at some young age. And that is either their college fund or their business starting thing that if you start a savings,, Bitcoin savings account for your nieces and nephews when they're born, and add a little bit more for their birthdays, well, first of all, they're the best is that they're going to be hobblers, because they don't even know how to spend it or lose it. And

you're, you know, and you're kind of helping them with their with their backup. And then, you know, 18 years later, or something like that, they find out that, you know, they've had Bitcoin and, you know, Bitcoin hasn't even been around for 18 years. But I can imagine that I think over any 18 year span of time, holding on to Bitcoin is going to be probably a winner that is going to be have some amount of life changing, even if it was a small amount that you were starting off with. And that a lot of people, especially in the U S can do that, um, for their family members, friends, uh, nieces and nephews and that. So I think that's really a valuable thing, uh, to get started. I do that. All my, all of my students, when they are a bar bat mitzvah, that's, uh, that'sah. That's what they get. And they say, what do I do with this?

And I say, just hold on to it. Do nothing with it. You'll know when you should do something with it. You'll know. And if you need to figure it out in a few years time, come back to me, I'll tell you that. I was gonna say the best part is that we say, it's for our kids and for let's start a college fund or when they wanna buy a house down the road.

But knowing our generation or certainly me, when they actually decide they may want to sell it, I'm going to guilt them and tell them that they need to hold it for their kids. I know I said that this was for your future, but really you're supposed to hold this forever. You can never sell. That's going to be us. So where can everybody follow you and check out the book, which is now in hardcover after this podcast? So I'm 24-6 pretty much on Twitter at The Bitcoin Rabbi. I take off on Shabbat, but that's where you can find me giving my hot takes on Bitcoin and NFTs lately. But the book is on Amazon. It's pretty easy to find Bitcoin money or my website is BitcoinMoneyBook.com. And yeah, it's been amazing. I mean, it's been translated

into I think 12 or 13 languages now. I've seen it's all around the world. I just have loved seeing it go to so many people. People share pictures of their little children, you know, reading it or the kids reading it with their grandmother or all kinds of stuff. It's been just, I've loved seeing where the book has gone and where it's taken me, the kind of people that I've gotten to interact with and meet. And that's one of the great things about Bitcoin is, you know, you get to have these kinds of conversations, you know, with people all around the world and different kinds of people. So I love it. I love chatting with people. I love taking questions. I mean, I'm a rabbi. That's so people come to, yeah, that's what I, what I do. So people, you know,

hit me up in the, in the DMS with the, with their, with their rabbinic queries. So that's what I like. So maybe the next book will be about how to hold shul in the metaverse. With your VR goggles on, right? We've done, we have done, we've done a few Jewish holiday events in VR. I do, I have a quest too. And so that's another side hobby of mine.

We've done some Passover and Hanukkah things. And I, I like that. I am, I'm working with some people about, there are some, uh, you know, religious, uh, restrictions on, on being, you know, actually personally, uh, present, um, but there's still, you know, but there's still a lot of fun things that you can do. And I am watching that space, the metaverse. Yeah, I guess that doesn't count as people in the room. Yeah, yeah. For 10, 10 people for for prayer service. But but there's there's still there's a lot that you can experience and learn. And, you know, not everything is that strict technical stance of being in a synagogue or being, you know, on a holiday. We don't use the traditional refraining from electronics and things. But, you know, throughout the week and on some holidays, there are some cool ideas that are yet to be explored about how we can utilize that.

I mean, that's the whole point of technology. The whole point of technology, whether it's financial or medical or transportation or everything, our belief is that God created everything in this world for us to use it for good purposes, to, you know, help ourselves and help other people and help the world. So whatever it is, whether it's, you know, crypto or, or VR or anything, that's kind of my mindset, not, not should we use this or not? Or is it allowed or not? Is it kosher? You know, if it's all about what your intention is, and what your purpose is, are for this, and how you're using it for good. And then it's a tool for good. I absolutely love that. So tell me then in six months or a year, we're going to repeat

this, but the next one is going to be about the metaverse and how you're using that. Okay. Deal. All right. That's a great idea. Great idea. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. This was really enlightening and I love your perspective. We need a lot more people like you in the Bitcoin community. So thank you.