The Wolf Of All Streets - Saylor Invests $4.6B for 51,780 BTC! Top Signal? | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

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Hey Joe, how are you? Doing well, sir. How are you doing? Joe, I've just been looking at, before Scott comes on, he's just having connection issues. I've just been looking at the meme coin market. Holy shit. Like every week there's a new nine-figure meme coin. It's insane. And the AI one's at $1.4 billion. It's insane. We actually created like a little bot for all the new coins that are listed on Lunar Crush.

And we created a little telegram group. So I'll give you access. Alex in here has access now. And it's like almost every coin that's getting listed out there, people are just going crazy. It's like all we have, the entire market is basically Bitcoin, L1s, and then meme coins. And there's no in between. And my question would be like, what else is getting launched on the actual L1s and then meme coins and there's no in between and my question would be like what what else is getting launched on the actual l1s outside of meme coins that has value like that's what i'm trying to understand uh but it is a meme coin market right now for sure if you were if you missed peanut you could have got wp peanut if you missed wp peanut you could have got baby peanut so uh things are moving what did what what did wp peanut and

baby peanut what what market caps are they i don't think it was anything crazy but the the way that these projects are being launched at like 500k to 750k market caps is that even if it goes to 10 or 20 million you know for the 98 minutes that it's there a lot of people people are doing pretty well. Absurd. It's insane. The numbers are insane. Like the whole narrative of a meme coin super cycle for me is like, it's just unfair.

And I thought it was unlikely, possible unlikely. And I expected that liquidity to eventually flow into the startups. But we just don not seeing that. We're seeing more and more indicators of a meme coin. Well, think about how hard it is to create an actual startup, like finding founders that are risking everything and giving up their day jobs and have to have conversations with their significant others or their wives and letting them know

that they're going to spend the next eight years of their life struggling to a level of degree that most of society doesn't struggle to, to create something versus like, Hey, me and my buddies just like launch liquidity pool off pump.fine did 28,000%. And we're then we're like out, right? Like the humans naturally are going to kind of flow towards the easier path. And we really need some standout founders that will decide to take the path less followed in order to start to kind of create real projects over here that are making sense.

Mario, are you thinking still that we're going to get the cycle you're looking for then from those sort of pre-sale VC tokens? Yeah, yeah, I still do. But we're still investing heavily. I'd like to say our focus hasn't heavily shifted to meme coins, very heavily shifted to meme coins, more than ever before. But we still have it.

But I'm not letting it impact our utility token team, which is still growing pretty quickly, you know, the incubation arm, et cetera. Because, you know, I think even though meme coin, there's no returns. I was telling my team, there's no asset class right now on this planet that compares, you know, probably the AI industry in some ways, but doesn't have the liquidity,

the immediate liquidity event. So it's like nothing else has that same return as meme coins right now, which is sad as it is, it is what it is. And there's even a platform, I came across it today. It's like Deesai has been gaining a lot of traction, but there's one platform by Solana. I haven't read into it.

I'm not sure if anyone has. But essentially what they do is they've leveraged the hype of meme points to fund projects and startups wanting to raise money for some new drug um or some new experiments so what you do is you put an application if i understood it correctly put an application for a new drug you want to develop and then people would bet money depending on on how much they believe in the team and the drug they bet money like a nickel and every time it hits a certain market cap it unlocks certain funding for the project very very weird i saw it today um i'm gonna read i've got an interview shortly.

I'm in Montreal for an interview and I'll be in New York for the event, for the Benzinga event. So I'll be a bit busy, but I want to, I'll go through and kind of maybe jump on one of the,

maybe jump on tomorrow, the day after and go through it because it's fascinating how you can leverage the whole meme model for things that have utility. And I hope we see more of those. Alex, you know what I'm talking about,

or you haven't seen it? Oh, yeah, no, I've seen a ton of this, especially the last month or two. I think that the first people were eking it out a little bit before. I think some of the AI stuff you're talking about is where I've definitely seen it. I'm very curious to see if this lasts,

because there's kind of two things I can see. I think this is, one, we've talked a lot previously about how a lot of the meme coins the last year is due to the fact that you can kind of legally launch a meme coin, but you can't launch a utility token under the current SEC regime. And so people just kind of started

turning and doing the meme coin thing really heavily. And so the thing I'm curious to see here is if funding projects using meme coins is a, hey, people have realized this is cool and the cat's out of the bag on it, and this is basically going to just keep happening this way, or assuming we get an actual regulatory framework, if people go back to just kind of much more traditional forms of token funding on it, I think, obviously, I think this is another great,

while people love meme coins, I think this is another great example of how investors are left far worse off by the current regulatory regime because you basically just have people like aping in and dumping money in meme coins with no insight into if it's actually going to get used to build a project. Like zero transparency across the board. I think it's actually going to get used to build a project, like zero transparency across the board. I think it's kind of terrible compared to if we just had like a good basic regulatory framework where people could raise money for these projects with like some base level of disclosure.

Yeah, but what's weird, Alex, is that I thought the meme coin hype will take a hit when Trump won. Maybe short-term gain, but medium-term to long-term would not be too good because obviously the regulatory framework in the US and probably other countries will follow suit would become more friendly to the startups, to the utility tokens. So that should be very bullish for utility tokens. And then they need to clean up the industry. So what would they target?

They target meme coins. Something that doesn't have value would be the perfect asset class to target. So you target the bad actors because there's obviously more bad actors in the meme coin space than the utility token space. So I would have expected a Trump win to potentially be negative medium to long term

to meme coins and positive to utility tokens. But you know, I'm questioning that thesis. Yeah, that's the big question mark for me. I'd say the Trump win's obviously good short term for meme coins just because everyone's excited and pumped and like that, you know, people go nuts on it then. But that's kind of what I'm saying, is it should be bearish in the medium to long term for meme coins and bullish for utility tokens. But the thing that I said, like I said, worries me here is that number one, the cap might just be out of the bag and you have

a bunch of people who've realized that they rather raise it money. And of course, I think there is definitely a negative selection bias in the long term of people who are using something like a meme coin based funding regime versus something where you actually have some sort of regulatory regime around it. But I also don't think, like part of this depends on who gets picked for SEC head, is I'm not sure they're going to go after anyone who's not doing an outright scam on crypto. I think there's going to be a lot of hesitancy to go after anyone who's kind of in the middle ground or doing memes. Because what you're going to have is you're going to have a bunch of people, I think, who end up rugging on these meme coin backed token or, you know, projects who are going

to be like, what are you talking about? I never said I was going to do something. You know, I was just running like a fun meme and like it went up and it went down. And that's what people expect with meme tokens. So, yeah, I don't know how it plays out, but I'd say I'd really prefer there to be a good regulatory framework people can use here and that people raise money for projects that way. But I'm worried that the cat will be out of the bag and people just go heavy on the meme coin fundraising. Dave Scott. Yeah, so I mean, I think that Alex is saying sort of what I was thinking in terms of the longer term, but we need a regulatory framework for it.

There is not a whole lot of difference between the notion of crowdfunding, you know, and there are regulations that, you know, yeah, there's some crowdfunding stuff going on under the SEC regimes, but it's highly regulated and doesn't necessarily accomplish anything close to what you get with a meme coin. Because with the meme coin notion, you get immediate liquidity and you get a lot of people who are gambling. And we all understand what it is. And we're in a society now where people like to gamble. They always have. And memes are just a way or is just basically, it's advertising, right? You know, it's like, it is what it is, and people jump into it. The question is, can you build a network that could be monetized? And it always has been that way,

whether it's on behalf of a drug of a company, etc. But the more interesting one, Mario, I'll leave this one with you is the proposal that I saw, which frankly, I'll wait to see whether it happens. But if in fact, Trump made it such that every American company who issues a crypto token as part, presumably for funding for that company, can do so where the people who buy it will not be subject to any capital gains taxes on those things. Imagine how will there be any U.S. crypto companies or companies that could claim to be crypto not launching tokens? And just just think about that for a heartbeat. It's a very big implication. I mean, you know, sitting on the board of a crypto company that I helped co-found, I mean, I can't imagine if that actually happened, CoinRoute's not issuing a token.

And which, by the way, you know, we thought about for years for a variety of reasons and always rejected it on the basis of the SEC will come after us. And that is a big deal. So it's not just memes, it's all crypto companies. And then the question of memes will mean coin developers who reside in the U.S. repackage it to try to say that there's utility. So there's all sorts of this is going to be 40 chess. We need to see what rules actually get done. But understand that it's a very different game. And the other point Alex made that's hugely important and unfortunate is that if every company believes that they won't get prosecuted unless they commit fraud or manipulation, then you might see a lot of the more aggressive companies going in and launching these things. Now, why am I mentioning this, Mario? And I'm mentioning it for a specific reason.

The bubbles tend to collapse when people realize they can issue more and more and more. So like the internet bubble, the most famous one in our history, it collapsed when the IPO market went absolutely crazy and there was just so much supply. Now, I'm not saying this is going to happen yet, but just like you saw in the meme world with Pump.Fun and 2 million meme coins having a big problem for the second tier meme market, I think we could see a similar thing. But this is all longer term, right? You know, we have to see how this plays out. But there are a lot of interesting implications. Didn't expect us to go down the meme coin rabbit hole twice in a day, Dave. But here we are. We did it on Macro Monday this morning as well.

Alex, go ahead. Yeah, listen. So when it comes to bubbles, right, and I think that's really an important point for us to really realize when the altcoin cycle will start. But we got to really remember that meme coins started in 2013 with Doge. So I don't see meme coins as a bubble anymore. It had multiple bubbles. It has evolved over time. And now it has confirmed itself as an asset class, as a specific sector. By the way, can you guys hear me? We can. You're good. I can. So I don't think that meme coins is a bubble anymore. It's already certified. It has its place. It's a fun way of gambling. It has crazy returns. It's more fun than running a roulette

machine and stuff like that. But what I do agree with is that we need to form new bubbles. So there are two types of bubbles that we need for the current altcoin cycle. We need the bubbles that are reforming or the new bubbles. The bubbles that are reforming is, will Gamify be able to get back on track with projects like Gunzilla? Will that be able to ignite a new bubble that will then push up all the Gamma Phi tokens. Right now, we're seeing that AI Phi and DeSci are the two big bubbles of this week, right? They're outperforming all the other asset classes. Wait, say those again?

That's not even on my radar. DeSci? DeSci, like D-E-S-C-I. Have you heard of that, bro? Dude, I'm a boomer. I'm still stuck on those and Gamma Phi. No, I have no idea what that is. Decentralized science, which by the way, I think it's one of those premature bubbles. So as we say, they're reforming bubbles and new bubbles. The reforming bubbles are the ones that come back eventually, and that will guarantee and certify themselves

as a new sector asset class or sub asset class. But right now, Scott, there's this weird phenomenon called decentralized science, which is essentially decentralized biotech and data for healthcare institutions, decentralizing the research side of things, publications, transparency, IP for drugs, co-owning the medicines, e-signature for consents, and all that kind of stuff. And we know that the pharmaceutical industry is definitely lacking trust and we will need a trustless network. But I think that is an example, Scott, of a bubble that is newly forming and that will never succeed in this cycle. It's going to just pop at the end, all the projects will go to zero besides a few. But AI-Fi, for instance, is a reforming bubble because

we had SingularityNet and other projects building AI-Fi already in the previous cycle. So all of this to say that meme coins are already a sector. It's going to evolve, of course, over time. It may not look the way it looks like today. It's going to transform. But we really need these reforming bubbles and new bubbles for us to set the new altcoin cycle. Interesting. Don, I saw you in the audience. I heard DeSci and I'm just brought as a knee-jerk reaction. Yeah, I just wanted to continue my descent into degeneration and the degen crypto world.

I'm actually pretty bullish on DeSci. I'll walk you guys through what's actually happening. Now, I'm not doing DeSci meme coins, just to be clear. That's just being co-opted. But the basic premise is, if you're trying to do decentralized clinical trials, one of the biggest challenges is you have to figure out different endpoints there that you can't trust. So if somebody is going to a random practice to get a certain drug, how do you know that they actually received that drug? How do you know that that drug didn't have side effects and that that doctor is not just taking advantage?

Today, we use something called clinical research organizations or CROs. They're crazy expensive. All of that completely goes away if it's built on a protocol, especially if it's connected to the medical record. Beyond that, there's also other approaches that you can use DeSci to share medical records, where you can do actual research on existing medical records. There's a lot of really interesting things happening in that space, especially at the intersection of blockchain and AI. I just think these meme coins are taking advantage of it and not really doing any of that. I remember my first cycle, 2016, 2017. I'll never forget because it was probably the worst investment, quote unquote, that I ever made in my early days in crypto was a Haitian toy. Do you guys remember that? P-Toy was the token, P-T-O-Y. It went down like 90%. And then obviously I waited a year and sold it, and then it went up

like 7000% in five minutes after I sold it. And then obviously went to zero, as is tradition. But conceptually, this isn't new. That was medical records on the blockchain back then. And that was 2016, I think. So you know, and there's a reason why that has not happened yet. But I do think that the underlying premise behind this resurgence has to do with RFK taking over HHS, and there being less trust in who the, you know, because if you're going to fix the pharmaceutical industrial complex, you have to fix the people that are doing the research too, and the people that they're using to do the research. And so if you're going to reevaluate this from the ground up, one of the biggest offenders are clinical research organizations who have been hired by pharmaceutical companies to recruit doctors to do these clinical trials. Does anybody see the problem there? There's clearly an issue. And I think that people are saying, hey, they're going to require if.

Danish, I lost you. I don't know if you guys did as well. I'm assuming. Yeah, I think we're going to. Is that better now? Yep, you're good. Can you hear me? Yeah, I was going to say that the underlying assumption, the reason why there's been a resurgence because there's a connection to RFK, if RFK truly is not full of hot air, and actually believes what he's saying around the value of crypto, and blockchain and

Bitcoin and other things, I think the underlying assumption is that we're not going to trust all the intermediaries in the industry to do the research, which is why I actually think that we're not going to trust all the intermediaries in the industry to do the research, which is why I actually think that we will see an actual utility of DeSci. I just don't think that. Can I just comment on that real quick, Scott? Sure, of course. You know, so what you're mentioning, Scott, about that previous medical records on chain, you know, I think there probably were some projects, but it wasn't a bubble per se, right? It wasn't like a hot sector or asset class. So if any of you guys out there want to gamble and want to put money in DeSci, just as a precautionary measure, invest in the projects

that have lots of funding, that have a huge war chest. Because I don't think this is going to happen. I feel, Scott, like this is like security tokens in 2017. Remember that, Scott? Of course. Where everyone's saying security tokens is the next big thing. We always have to wait at least four years on the first iteration. Exactly.

We're just talking about data. I don't know if the metaverse is coming back, but we were, community-wise, everybody was 100% sure that gaming was the thing last cycle, and we know that it'll probably be, to your point, the thing this cycle. Always a cycle early on narratives. Yeah, exactly. So if you really want to gamble, guys, with these new farming bubbles, as we're talking about, not the ones that are reforming, but the ones that are reforming, I think there's some really good plays to make.

Make sure that you have a project that has received a lot of funding because they will be able to survive at the worst case scenario, as you were saying earlier, Scott, maybe the next cycle. And the next cycle, if they do have a really big war chest, which I believe for pharmaceutical, if you want to really democratize data and you want to democratize funding because you know that the pharmaceutical industry is a cartel that is funded only for profit. And it's a real, real business. So if they find cures for cancers that are not so common, they're literally, even if they have the drug, they're not going to produce that drug. They're not going to manufacture or commercialize that drug simply because it's not ROI positive. So there is a use case for that, obviously. And a lot of you out here, probably because of what happened in COVID, you realize, okay, wait, blockchain is built for trusted networks. Do I trust the pharmaceutical industry? Hell no. So yes, I do see a use case. But if you guys really want to dabble into DeSci, I would just really go on the projects that have

huge, huge funding, or that have a token that really pumped where they can sell some tokens to survive this cycle and hopefully flourish in the next one. I want to pivot a bit to Bitcoin now that we've beaten DeSci and memes and DeSci memes, which I can't believe that's a thing where you can merge the two. Something about, Donna, I see you laughing,

but the science and memes, I don't know. Maybe we should just keep those two separate in this case. But obviously, talk about Bitcoin trading up again today. At the moment, at least, pushing almost to 92,000. We're at 91,720 as I'm looking at it on the ticker here.

And the biggest news in Bitcoin, obviously, is Saylor invests $4.6 billion for 51,780 Bitcoin. Holy mother of God. That is a lot of Bitcoin at $88,000 a token. I haven't looked, but this has to be by leaps and bounds the largest purchase by dollar amount ever. $4.6 billion and clearly never stopping here. I don't know if that's a catalyst for upward movement. I think people have come to expect that Saylor's going to buy whatever he gets money. I mean, taking a look at the chart, Peter, here and the price action, to me, it looks like we had this huge move up, you know, through the previous all time high around 74,000 are just kind of

consolidating here around 90. But nothing's looking bearish to me. No, I mean, I put out a tweet, I think, last week when Bitcoin declines, it's just winking at you, saying, buy me. You know, we had a big move up. We have really not even had a correction. I mean, it's not uncommon for Bitcoin's bull markets to have 20 percent corrections. You know, in the early years, of course, the corrections were a lot more severe than that. But when we get the strong thrust in both markets, 2016, 17, 19, 20, we get 20% corrections. It's winking at you when it declines 10% to 20%. We can't even get 10%. So this is an extremely strong market. If you just watch how you trade, you watch it tick by tick. It's a market that's going up with buyers just taking anything that's offered.

It's going up easy. You know, people say, well, we don't have the big, big volume. Therefore, this is not a legitimate bull market. Legitimate bull markets go up easy. They go up on small volume. That's what's happening. I'll get concerned if we come in here and have a day with huge, huge slugs of volume. For me, that would be a local top. Until that happens, we go up easy. I mean, my target Bitcoin

for next year is $135, $145 in that area. And we could far out shoot that who knows but yeah there's there's no reason to be a seller in my opinion of bitcoin uh you know if we get a 10 correction uh shake out those are buying opportunities of course you guys have already talked about the mean coins which i don't really follow but if you look at the small cap alts. You know, we've got enormous moves. Ripple, huge move. Although Ripple is in this pretty significant resistance at this level here now. But, you know, there's strength across the board. But again, nevertheless, for me, my focus is Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin. Although I do now own a little bit of Solana.

Well done. You know, I like the look of that chart yeah i mean that's a that that's an absolute rocket right now and it's been uh leading the market i think all the way from the bottom so it seems like good odds on bet to continue to outperform in the bull market as well peter just just before we go to Dave, when you look at the Bitcoin chart, you obviously have the glaring level. I mean, at Coinbase, it's 73,835. Obviously, the previous all-time high for March, we broke through it on election night on significant volume with a large candle. It hasn't technically been back-tested as support. Do you expect that to happen no when you look at where the meat of the moves are

uh you know which are all by the way post-having but if you go back through history and again we don't necessarily have to repeat history doesn't repeat it off it rhymes and if we go back and take a look at really where the meat of the moves have been in the past, it doesn't go back and look. You know, it breaks out and goes. It may pause. It may have a 20% run and a 10% correction. I really do not expect to see Bitcoin go back and take a peek again at that in the 70s level.

I think that's the 70s come and gone for this cycle anyway. What's amazing, Peter, is that I've seen people on Twitter, not naming names, but that were, you know, waiting for Bitcoin at $12,000 when it was 15. Now saying they are looking to buy at 74 on the dip, who haven't bought that entire way up. Yeah, you know, let me tell you i i've been doing this for 50 years i've been around a lot of traders really good traders in a lot of towns and here's the reality is people would say i'm going to buy who who own let's say

they own some bitcoin and they say i want to load up if we get at 72. The reality is if we get 72, they'll probably sell what they own. I mean, that's just mentality. People say, yeah, I'm going to step in and buy. Give me 75 again. We get to 75. They're not buyers. They're probably sellers. Yeah, 100%.

100%. Dave? Yeah, a couple of things. First, you know, this market is probably best described as what would happen if a lot of people felt that they needed to be buying because they think that this cycle is going to see a significantly higher high, but are trying to DCA dollar cost average, i.e., you know, not like pick and pick spots. So effectively, what you end up with is accumulators looking to accumulate but not wanting to push the price. And when that happens, every time there's a dip, the algos that they're using or their own fingers, if they're slow,

are going to be buying. And that is literally what it looks like. And that's what the market feels like. But what is fascinating today is it looks like a gamma squeeze going on. So, you know, as we've been talking, Bitcoin went from 90,000 and change to pushing 92 right now. And at the same time, if you look at the CME futures, the November futures, which expire in 11 days, are trading around $500 over. So, you know, that's 50 basis points in nine days. That's a crazy interest rate. And so there are people who, of course, are going to sell the futures at that price in order to make money, you know, by trading the cash and carry arbitrage. But that begs the question of who's buying at that price. So obviously, there are people out there hedging

either derivative positions or blocks in futures. If you look at perpetual swaps, perpetual swaps are trading a couple of the inverse perpetual there, you know, $80 over $100 over and that's why the funding rates on the exchanges are at elevated levels, not crazy elevated levels, but pretty elevated for at least the short term. And so what you're seeing is patient buying and speculators or hedgers, you know, professional hedgers saying, okay, I need to get, you know, liquidity and hedging. And that's why these moves get exaggerated. Now, this could continue for a long time. Often when you see this, it signals, as I said this morning, short term tops, although obviously we've gone higher since then. It just tells you that the real question is people are trying to figure out where real liquidity is. And that doesn't happen because Michael Saylor Bitcoin, he's going to be participating because it frees up

funds based on his unique financing arrangement to be able to buy more. But it's not just them. It's also miners. And it's also Marathon announcing it. So there's a lot of nascent demand here. And the question really is, at what point do we go into true price discovery? And I don't know if now is it. I just know that it feels like it wants to do that. I mean, my personal belief was that we would cool our heels here for the next, you know, at least several weeks. I don't know, from the market perspective, it doesn't necessarily feel that way. Alex? Yeah, I'm in a pretty similar place. I think obviously, you know, you don't rock it up. I don't know, what was it, 20 or 25% on fundamentals. It was very much optimism and, you know, speculation

of what's going to happen with Trump and also not just like what the US is going to do, but what it's going to drive other countries to do. You've obviously seen a lot of conversation about a lot of different places potentially starting to build strategic Bitcoin reserves. So you're trying to kind of get out in front of it. I think the most interesting thing for me, though, is still kind of going again off of what other people have said. The psychology from a lot of like potential retails or folks on the margins is still so similar to what we've seen before. The number of texts I've gotten from people, you know, right after Trump got elected or something being like, hey, should I be buying? You know, and I'm like, yes, probably. I've been telling you that for a while. And then, you know, it shoots up a bunch and they're, you know, I'll get a follow

up text from the same person of like, well, I guess I missed it. And it's like, no, I literally told you like, I mean, we might be at like a local maxima for a week or two, but this is by no means the global maxima on it. Like, you should still keep buying. And you still have, like, a lot of people who are, you know, like, they kind of know it. And, you know, like, these are smart folks who have plenty of good net worths and things.

And they're still, I think they still don't know exactly what they want to think about Bitcoin in particular. Like, they're not going to get involved in meme coin gambling and things like that. But they're still kind of sitting there being like, all right, is this a, I'm trying to make a 25, 50% return this cycle kind of trade? Is it a genuine hedge in the long term? Am I doing it? And I think that's, I think it's that kind of mentality in

those people that is part of the ceiling we're kind of sitting against right now in this, you know, 88 to 94 range, if that group, and this is why I was saying even a week or two ago, I think getting real fundamental announcements about bigger economies and things like choosing to build reserves or other things just to make it clear that even institutional is going to continue to keep adopting this like i think if we get a lot of that and that mentality flips on you know kind of that group of people i think that's where you then see the real breakout over 95 100 and shoot straight up to like 120s or higher range honest so um as one of the suits up here um i've got to give you guys a different perspective which is institutional buying i personally know of at least one family office that's waiting for

the treasury pick uh before they go in it's not about getting the right entry price. It's about knowing the direction. If it's Lutnik versus Bassett or versus Warsh, I think it's a very different timeline and a very different thought process. And I think that that is going to drive a decent amount of decision-making right now. I think the fact that there's been such a delay on choosing who the pick is, is surprising for folks. And so there must be a level of concern, but at least on that side of, I just don't think technicals are even playing right now. I think people don't know what the price is going to be. And I think that there is a broader question around, okay, what is going to happen in the next few months in terms of in the next few days.

I bet you he announces Ludmik as the treasury secretary this week. I bet you that there is going to be additional pro crypto folks coming in. And just as a reminder, if you're looking for an entry price right now, I, the Kermitian is telling you, do not, do not wait. You will not get the best price. The best price was a year, two years, five years ago. Right now, it's about just getting an entry point, make your decision. You might lose a little, maybe if there's a little bit of a pullback. But in 2025, can you imagine the ridiculousness that comes in 2025, just from a regulatory perspective? I think if you are just paying attention a little bit, it would be insane to not at least own some. So I'm speaking to the folks that are listening to the show that still are a little bit hesitant about owning Bitcoin of the different, yes, you can make money elsewhere,

but Bitcoin seems like the safest bet. Ah, Danish. I wish we could run you back. Oh, yeah. I think people are actually hitting that bid button, right? Like if you really think about this price action over the last month or so, right? Like if you really think about this price action over the last month or so, right? Like Saylor, all the big guys, like they're, they are working with some of the best Delta neutral market makers on earth, right? Like, and that means that they, the portfolio when they're investing, it's relatively insensitive to changes in the price, right? Like they are, they're working with some of the best people that are not fluctuating the price of Bitcoin when they ratchet a billion dollars in, right? Or more. What you're seeing, and, you know, I have this crazy theory that, you know, when prices go

up, it means retail is kind of smashing that market buy. It's not a limit. It's not a stop, right? Same thing when the price goes down, right? Markets sell. And that really pushes the bids down. And like the market making, you know, firms sell. And that really pushes the bids down. And the market-making firms are the ones that really benefit from huge upswings in price or downswings in price. But I have a feeling that people are just, at a whole, everyone's hitting this, like smashing that buy button. I mean, we just moved up a ton. We're taking a small breather right here. But I don't see it. I don't see this slowing down anytime soon. And like Dave said, with Saylor, it makes a ton of sense when things are moving up,

so much easier to raise that capital when things are moving up. And like any good founder knows when the market's hot, like you kind of strike when the iron's hot with fundraising, right? Like if things are moving up, valuations are moving up. If you know you have a long-term asset that makes sense with your company, you're raising money when things are going well. It's just so much easier for you. And you're not trying to push the valuation of the company up to an outrageous number that you can't grow into, but why not take that extra 30% to 40% bump in valuation when things are moving up? Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Simon, I know you're dying to jump in here

when we're talking about buying Bitcoin at any price. Yeah, I think, you know, everything has been said. Sorry, I was late to the table. Maybe other people said this, but, you know, when Michael Saylor publishes this price and says, right, you know, we got 57,000 average price,

88,000. Um, I think it's just a huge, um, help in people's confidence that, um, you know, somebody like Michael Saylor is still buying a scale at these prices.

And it just helps people understand because it is the number one thing when I'm dealing with people trying to get them off zero Bitcoin. They're just really petrified that they're buying the top of the market. It's too late. They've missed the boat. And that's been the same story for 13 years.

It's never changed. You know, every price price you know i had someone um i was giving i was doing a space with a bunch of people that are trying to get into bitcoin and in with that exact same mindset and someone came up to the top of the space and said hey you know simon i felt exactly the same thing. Bitcoin was $8,000. It felt so expensive at the time. It felt like the top. It felt like I was an idiot because as soon as I bought it, the price crashed down a bit. And it's always been the same.

You will feel exactly that way. I remember everybody mocking Tim Draper when he bought the silk road bitcoins 30 000 bitcoins for 650 dollars and then the price proceeded to crash down to about 350 dollars and everyone was like he bought the top of the market and it felt like you know it felt wow you, you spent $650 per Bitcoin for 30,000 Bitcoin. And so, you know, this is the reality of, you know, of Bitcoin, it is the first digital scarce asset, no one gets the price, right, you always feel like you overpaid. And you always feel like you don't have enough, just get your head around that, get your emotion around that, and just recognize that every single person that has bought Bitcoin every month for four years has outperformed every single asset out there. And if you think that's about to change,

then just try and help yourself understand. And the beauty of it is some people are going to wait, no, I'm going to wait for the US to have a strategic reserve asset. Others are going to say, I'm going to front run that. Others are going to say, oh, I'll wait till the state has it. Another one's going to say, I'll wait till Qatar has it or UAE has it or Saudi has it. Or I'll wait until this thing is actually known, institutionalized. And everyone has their different entry point. And that gives us a steady flow because I believe, and others on this panel maybe believe as well, all of that is likely to happen and none of it has to happen either. And so, you know, that is the thing.

It's a psychological game and for me uh the investors are the one that have won consistently um over the years over the long term and while some traders are great most of the traders like ended up getting wrecked in the process and maybe didn't end up with and look back and just say if only i had just stuck to Bitcoin, invested, dollar cost averaged. And I've just seen it too many times to know that that is the reality for the vast majority. Perfectly well said.

I think a good way to wrap up because I have a doctor's appointment and I have to go. So I want to thank everybody on the panel and all of you for listening. These shows are going to continue to get better and better and better as the bull market continues. So tune in every day. We'll be here at 10, 15 a.m.

Eastern Standard Time, guys. Thank you so much. See you tomorrow. Bye.