The Wolf Of All Streets - Saylor To Burn Keys To 17k BTC On His Death | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

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Morning, everybody. Happy Wednesday and welcome to Crypto Town Hall every single day around 10, 15 a.m. Eastern Standard Time here on... Actually, we actually have quite a few stories today that are worth discussing. Of course, we have this title here, Sailor to Burn Keys to 17k Bitcoin on his death. Definitely an interesting story worth discussing. He basically said to Laura Shin, and this was repeating something he said in the past, that as a contribution to the community, he would burn his personal Bitcoins ease when he dies, obviously adding some little bit of deflation as a symbol to help the community. His passion and commitment is absolutely unmatched.

This obviously coming at the same time as it's been announced that they raised $711 million in perpetual Strivecraft shares to buy Bitcoin, I believe. So Sailor continuing to go all in obviously on his Bitcoin bet at the moment. Another story worth discussing, I think today, maybe we'll start here. Is it GameStop after much speculation has announced that they will unanimously approve an update to its investment policy to add Bitcoin as a treasury reserve asset? I haven't checked the price of GameStop today, but I know it was up about 13-14% pre-market. How big of news is it to see GameStop here following micro strategy in adding Bitcoin as a treasury asset and do we think that we're going to see others follow?

I would love anyone on the panel's opinion. Go ahead, jump in. Let's start. I'm going to call a random name soon. Dave, go, I can always count on you. I was wondering whether you're like, I thought people might be tired of listening to me after the last look It's a double-edged sword

I mean GameStop is probably one of the most likely companies to deploy cash into Bitcoin because it is a way for them to clearly Use the micro strategy playbook So that's that's very positive in the long run when they do it. Of course, people in crypto probably figure there might be some small brains out there who think they already have and therefore the news is priced in. No, I'm sure that's not the way corporate America works. They probably haven't even figured out their custodial solutions or what providers they're

going to use, et cetera. So it's more of a longer term thing. But the flip side to that is that a lot of other companies might be given pause because they don't want to be grouped in the same bucket as GameStop because of the way that they're viewed on Wall Street. And you know, I personally think that's absurd, but I also know that it's probably true.

So there is that. Yeah, I love to jump in on that. I think you're absolutely right, Dave, that the fact that GameStop is doing it brings a carnival atmosphere to it. And any, I would say company, as Saylor said, that doesn't have to do this. Because the people who are adopting Bitcoin are the folks like the Semler and strategy that were basically dying, melting ice cubes, as he said. And GameStop knows how to play liquidity pumps. Back in 21, I was at a bank and we followed crowded trades. And as soon as GameStop went up, instead of turn off the sell button, what they did is

they basically issued stock. They know how to stay alive and use capital markets, very similar to strategy. So I agree with you. And the analog, like we talked about last week, is in the investment side, you still have a lot of large wirehouses who are still adopting a kind of a Biden-esque FTX rear view window look at Bitcoin digital assets. And I think GameStop probably doesn't advance treasury adoption by any stretch and hope he doesn't hurt it. Yeah, that's an interesting take.

I really never thought about the fact that we can't consider any of the players who have done it yet as quote unquote legitimate. So I guess we're waiting for still a Microsoft or Dell. I can throw in one anecdote here last week. So I'm based in Dubai and I was meeting with a German media company with something like 7 billion euros of assets and there's always having this conversation, initiating this conversation around what is our exposure to Bitcoin, ETH, Sol in terms of balance sheets. I think this is definitely coming.

It's probably not an immediate thing. Echo the thoughts shared already that GameStop is probably just jumping in for the memes and trying to grab attention. But there is definitely much more serious conservative money all over the world that is considering this asset now on their balance sheet. So when do you think we see that movement start to show? Obviously, we had the gap accounting rules finally changing last year, which allowed companies, certainly in the United States, to actually do this, which they likely couldn't before because of the risk.

You know, we've heard a lot of numbers of bigger companies potentially adding, but is it time? I mean, is this something we're going to start to see announced beyond the GameStop's of the world? Anybody here get anything? Douglas, what are your thoughts? Well, I think that GameStop, in order for the board to approve it, must have already pitched who they're going to use for custody, how they're going to execute, how they're going to buy. So my guess is that they already have their standard operating

procedure in place. I think that they'll probably follow the MicroStrategy playbook for sure. These guys love to issue equity whenever it jumps up in price. I think that a lot of companies may think of GameStop in a negative way, but at the same time, when they see a stock going up 14% overnight on the back of making an announcement like that,

that's pretty juicy to a CEO. All he has to do is make an announcement that now they have the ability to buy Bitcoin and they don't actually buy it yet and see a nice pop in their stock price. And given that the CEO's job is to maximize the stock price, I think that that's a very positive thing. I wouldn't be surprised if within the next couple of weeks we actually see the first sort of buying signals coming from GameStop, if they actually start announcing it in the same sort

of way that MicroStrategy does. They may be doing it quietly or they may want to make a lot of noise when they do it. But I think that every single corporate balance sheet probably has exposure to Bitcoin now because they're invested in index funds and index funds include MicroStrategy or GameStop. And so in that regard, it's sort of like if they see the boost is coming from what's in the underlying of their index funds, then they may think, well, maybe I should start buying the underlying as well. Now, we've already heard or we spent the last couple of weeks talking about how nation states are now buying Bitcoin. And so now we've gone on the extreme where you have meme stocks like GameStop getting involved. And I guess what everyone's looking for is something in the middle. When's Berkshire Hathaway or Apple or Microsoft going to start buying or start announcing that they're involved in Bitcoin. But I think that,

you know, we all understand that that's inevitable. And we just have to be patient. You know, I think that, yeah, it'd be great if we saw Bitcoin making a big jump today in the back of this, but it won't until the buying begins. But the buying will begin. And we just have to be patient. This one's telegraphed to some degree because there were the pictures of Sailor with the CEO of Game Stop a few weeks ago or maybe even months ago at this point. So it's led to a lot of conjecture. I know he's out on the road show trying to convert CEOs. Clearly it worked in this case.

It will be interesting to see their first announcement, whether they've already been buying. Mark, go ahead. Mark, you had your hand up. Yeah, thanks. I have a slow mouse move here on my end. You know, we're looking at the treasury trade, which I think is, I think Doug was speaking about the fact that this announcement wouldn't be made unless they had some of the rails set up in the process. And I do agree.

I think people are exploring, there are companies exploring this. I think the shift, if I was to look at six months out where the announcements will be, it'll be on the corporate or the industry front. Things like what Kraken is doing with Ninja Trader, the $1.5 billion acquisition, which gives Ninja access to foreign markets. Kraken obviously, as an FCM, trading futures as more ETFs come out and more futures get traded. So I think that's going to be maybe more impactful.

And then what Coinbase, I don't know what few folks have more Intel than I do on the degree of talks with Deribit, but the derivatives trading given the change from choke point 2.0 to let's go full throttle into digital assets. I think the business side is really going to probably have more of an impact on the market than just treasury. Although I do love that trade for companies. Coinbase acquiring Deribit, if it happened, would be by far the biggest acquisition in the news in this space. Deribit is the leading futures exchange by many, many, many multiples in the world for Bitcoin and ETH options. So I mean, that would be just absolutely massive.

I guess the question would be whether it would then become available to United States users, although I doubt it in the short term, but still them having that business would be whether it would then become available to United States users, although I doubt it in the short term, but still them having that business would be massive. I think it, did anybody see the VAL? I can't remember, four to six million somewhere in there? I said five million, billion, excuse me, something like that. Yeah, and the margin on derivatives for these folks is just tremendous versus their trading and custody business lower margins. So that's why I think it'll be huge, as you said.

Yeah, so it's estimated that the GameStop will be looking at potentially 10% annually, which is about 500 million of its cash value. So not insignificant for GameStop itself, but I don't think that like really moves the needle on Bitcoin. And I don't know that GameStop is taken so seriously. I do agree with the sense that we have quite a bit of companies that we would have to kind of scan the market for those who are cash rich with fledgling business models to be following the micro strategies approach.

And I just don't think there's that many operationally that are out there. So my anticipation is that we actually see more companies following the Tesla model back in the day, which is accepting crypto assets from stablecoin Bitcoin, etc. As a portion of their payment processing to actually build a lower risk reserves than taking cash balances that could affect bottom line P&L risk metrics and investor speculation. Although the bump on the stock price is significant. and investor speculation, although the bump on the stock price is significant. Yeah, just on the GameStop, I think that I see from previous weeks a lot of conversations from international companies, not necessarily US, but international public companies, which has basically the same characteristics as MicroStrategy or GameStop, more like MicroStrategy that have ability to access capital at a quite an advantageous rate and the NDC deployment in Bitcoin a good

pump for their liquidity, liquidity of their stock, etc. So I see obviously not a lot happening in the US market. I mean, probably trying to propagate in the US market, but I see a lot of propagation in the international markets. And that's for international markets, that's significant because it gives local stockholders exposure not only to Bitcoin itself, which in a lot of jurisdictions they don't have exposure to, but also it gives them exposure to an international play. And that is quite valuable in a lot of merchant markets and international markets. So I think that this playbook is going to proliferate quite a bit. I didn't see Michael Saylor actually trying to convince international players to do it, because that's

basically the nature of US markets, it's very US-centric in general. But I think that's where you're going to see a lot of proliferation around. Douglas. Well, I think MetaPlanet has done a good job in getting international companies involved. I think that if you saw their stockholder meeting, which I think was about this past week, it seemed like it was overflowing and they're getting a lot of interest, obviously, in Japan, really for the reasons that Zillian just discussed, which is that the Japanese investor sees that investing in MetaPlanet is a positive because they get exposure to

Bitcoin. So I think that we are seeing this internationally. MetaPlanet maybe is leading this more than Sailor, but MetaPlanet is obviously taking the Sailor idea. Yeah, and I haven't checked of late, but MetaPlanet's performance, I think at the end of 2024, was the best performing stock on the entire Japanese market, right? So I think people have seen the effect of doing this in a sort of strategic manner in the way that MicroStrategy did even without raising the debt to buy more. Go ahead, Mark. Mark, I don't know if it's a quick mouse again, but your hand is up, Zillian, you can go ahead.

Yeah, just another note on the Japanese market. I can see a lot of interest for a US-based stablecoin or any non-yen denominated stablecoin because for the Japanese consumers, which is retail in general, they're very interested in being able to quickly exit completely the Japanese financial system. And US holdings up until now via traditional ways did not allow them to do that. So, this is a little bit outside of the subject, but stablecoin exposure is something that is extremely interesting to Japanese retail. And another thing also, just a very quick one, on Deribit. So Deribit, I'm very happy with that for personal reasons, because I'm kind of involved.

But, yeah, look, this market, again, this derivatives market has been quite a segment in the digital asset space. And I think this acquisition is basically going to give Deribit and Coinbase a new leg. So I think that is a fantastic news and hopefully that will come to fruition. Joe, your comments before maybe think, you said that many would obviously take the Tesla strategy of accepting Bitcoin or stable coins to build a treasury that way. Obviously, that didn't last very long with Tesla. Nobody really did it. It was one of the catalysts, I think, for the bear market last time when Tesla stopped accepting Bitcoin. But I want to talk more

about stable coins. I agree. We've seen companies like Stripe already wholesale adopt stable coins. like Stripe already wholesale adopt stablecoins. We had news this week that Trump launching a dollar-backed stablecoin and Fidelity, I think, looking to launch a stablecoin. So that seems to be a different conversation, obviously, holding stablecoins on your balance sheet to just holding dollars. But I think that stablecoin adoption massively increasing here, and maybe one of the big stories for corporate adoption as well. And Mateo, go ahead. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think that that's exactly it.

It's just the dynamic rails being built into corporate finance and then being able to, I mean, that's where it boils down to, where it's like, it's a big difference between unloading extra cash reserves and taking on risk versus building in rails that actually save the company money, affect the bottom line, improve P&L, give a better customer experience, make you more global, bridge geopolitical lines, and it can actually de-risk the organization rather than apply more risk.

So I think that that's really compelling. And just one little comment on the Deribit thing. I think the big story here is that M&A of a big scale is on the table for the crypto industry in a way that we've really never seen before. And that's actually extremely promising. And I think it adds to the fact that people are seeing what's happening in the rail development and they're wanting that institutional full dynamic operational capacity to be able to implement it. And to see these mergers and acquisitions come to light, go through, it's just very promising. Anyone else thoughts on this increased adoption of stablecoins?

We're likely to get legislation. I think that's the lowest hanging fruit in the coming months. Mark, did you have a comment? Go ahead. Yeah, I just went through a bunch of the stablecoin legislation and the pace of it that went through is pretty legion. And I think the only, the last hurdle is which one will be surviving,

the Genius Act or the Stable Act that's proposed by the House. And I think the Genius Act by the Senate Committee is the one that'll be the surviving. And it's actually gives states and federal agent entities the ability to have stable coins. Again, I think that's the one that's going to be driving industry. The banking system, which someone just mentioned, is broader. It helps their businesses. It gives them global access. And obviously, from the Treasury standpoint, it takes care of Vesson's role of trying to sell $10 trillion of T-bills coming up in the next 12 months.

You get a lot of new buyers. It just is a win-win. Incentives are there, so I agree. I think that'll be the biggest legislation or the biggest win for the industry in the next six months. Fred. Yeah. industry in the next six months. Fred? Yeah, just echoing what Mark said on the sea change with stablecoins and why it's so important is because the pace of how the government is changing and doing this just can't be overstated.

In the Ripple case, which is thank God over with, I was very happy to see that end. But at the tail end of that case, when they were trying to come up with the injunction and what they were going to prevent Ripple from doing in the future after the part of the case they lost, the SEC started throwing around, well, hey, Judge, did you know that they're about to do their stable coin and they're going to release this? And that's a security, too.

I mean, we've got to talk about that. And that never got resolved in front of the SEC. It was the end of the case by then. But the SEC was making a play, of course, under Gary Gensler to say that stablecoins are going to be securities. So I mean, just, and that was only four months ago. So for that to be over with and done and that kind of hostility to be gone, yeah, it's going to take a few months to get the legislation. But I mean, the amount of unlocking of potential that stablecoins is going to do for crypto just I know we all want it to happen now but

it will happen soon and it's going to be vast and I don't think even everybody here can fully appreciate how that's going to impact the markets. Dave. Yeah I think you got to be careful, Fred. I think it will get there. But until there is, until we actually see either a market structure bill or at a bare minimum, Kinten's and Atkins coming out with joint ways of working together, you have to understand that there's no model for markets where you have a pairwise trading

with one security and one commodity. Because there's overlapping rules, conflicting rules, et cetera. There's a lot of stuff that has to happen. I think the SEC will take the approach of no action relief to try to help. But just to contextualize what I'm talking about If you look at volumes on exchanges the reason that stable coins are traded on, you know Crack in etc reason it always used to trade tether Was because they had the tether based pairs that traded alongside the Bitcoin based pairs and people want to be able to trade in and

Out and do you know efficient, you know arbitrage to keep the prices in line All of those things are necessary plumbing for markets. None of those things have a legal framework right now. And so that's work. And the SEC is going to try to do things quickly. They'll probably use no action relief. I'm sure contends that the CFTC will also. But there's a lot of work to get there. What it does, however, mean is that builders who are building new models, who are building things and brokers who want to move into this business will all be able to start doing it. They may not be able to push the actual go button until toward the end of the year because

it'll probably take at least six months to get all this stuff resolved. But it is very exciting and it is very bullish. It's just be careful about the timing. I think one of the reasons the market's doing the markets doing which is still sitting in a rain still kind of bopping around the same pricing still highly correlated to risk assets is Precisely because none of this stuff is immediately on the horizon. So well, I'm not telling people to slow their roll. I am saying You know markets try to anticipate things the market is basically not pricing any of this stuff in because at this point, I think most people who are investing,

you know, not investing, trading, basically like, yeah, well, talk to me when it's close. And I think that's a large part of what we're seeing. And by the way, I think it's the same thing with GameStop today. And that's why, you know, people look at it and say, oh, yeah, okay, well, 500 million a year, who cares about long term utility curves or any shit like that.

What I care about is am I going to get liquidated on my 20 or 30X long? And frankly, should they do that? No, but I think that is what's happening. Zillion. I can't hear Zillion. I don't know about you guys, but I'm hearing a strange echo. I can't hear Zillian. I don't know about you guys, but I'm hearing a strange echo. I can't.

There's a jump down mark. Yeah, I love Dave. I haven't heard slow your role in a while. And I think what you just said about, you know, don't slow your role, but don't expect this to happen in six months. That is the game of where the volatility will continue in our space because the shift, I think, I don't know,

Amitay or someone else saying how we haven't appreciated the sea change between the Biden administration and what's happened in the first 60 plus days. It will take longer, but we are, the markets are showing us more the 20 times levered trader than they are the builder right now. So I agree that the markets reflecting the immediate gains, which are only provided by someone like GameStop, versus the quiet building going on. And as an example, I'll point to 2023, when the SEC was going after Coinbase with the 12 tokens or securities they filed on June 5th. And then on June 7th, BlackRock quietly filed the ETF. So they already had everything lined up.

So a lot of these folks, I think, have business plans in place, and they're ready to unleash them at the right time. And BlackRock's saving of Coinbase by saying, great, we'll just unleash the ETF now faster than we want to because we don't agree with what the SEC is doing. But you're right, Dave. The roles are being slowed by the 20X folks right now because there's no momentum right now in the space. Zillion, you're requesting now, sorry, we keep getting the glitch, but Zillion, it shows you as a speaker now if you want to jump up. If not, Amateo, go while he's connecting again. Go ahead,, Amit. Cool. Yeah, I mean, when the EO was signed,

it mentioned 180 days in order to implement market structure bill. That actually brings us to July 22 of this year. I just don't think that's that far out. I think, rightfully, if people are skeptical that we'll actually have something significant, I mean, I think there's that far out. I think rightfully, if people are skeptical that we'll actually have something significant, I mean, I think there's a trade there, but I do think that we'll get at least stable coin

legislation by that date. That's pretty clear in how these things will operate. That's a mandate for this administration that's moving very quickly and doesn't show any signs of slowing progress. So, I mean, if that's just right around the corner, which can show that this will be that everyone's working in quite behind the scenes to implement the technology, but to then the legislation and all the regulatory stuff is ironed out, especially on stable coins to implement it

into the global market, which already occupies the majority of stable coin transactions. It's not actually US. Gazillion, Gazillion, is your mic working? Yeah. Can you guys hear me now? Yeah, exactly. So I joined this point and I think this is not appreciated enough, especially from the investment community. I think that a lot of

the stablecoin issuers that are going to want to be under this legislation regulated in the US might be focusing on stablecoin products that are targeting international markets, other countries, because a lot of the transaction volume comes from there and a lot of the user base comes from there. So I think that this bill will attract a lot of ventrefer... Sorry, not ventrefer, but rather builders or stable coin companies that are focusing on certain regions or certain specific markets.

And the obvious reason is well known. I mean, this is a way to kind of go around the capital controls in these places, to tap into Forex remittance and all this stuff. So yeah, very, very interesting, Bill. I really look forward to see the impact. And I think that, but right now, unfortunately we don't see any deal flow or any kind of companies kind of gearing up to target regional and international markets from a currency, stable currency perspective.

Fred, I have a question for you specifically. We saw news that the XRP had effectively settled with the SEC. That case had not been quote unquote dropped because the SEC was appealing. I believe that's at least the semantics. And it sort of came out that there was rumor that they were looking to settle with a lower fine or with a different settlement by the end. It seems like they kind of fell somewhere in the middle I know you've probably been looking at this what happened there. Well I'm glad you asked this was a huge win for the crypto industry and you know

especially the XRP community that took the beating while Ripple was going through that. Basically now not officially at an end, but we're probably 60 days away from it. And what happened is last week we heard the SEC was dropping their appeal of the parts of the case they lost, which not quite, but essentially is about retail selling and selling on exchanges.

And then Ripple curiously kept their cross appeal, which was they were appealing the part they lost, which was to institutional players selling their XRP. And so it's kind of why did the SEC drop their appeal, but not Ripple for nothing. And that's again, where you're seeing all these pieces of the sea change at the SEC. Essentially what happened yesterday was the SEC said, all right, you drop your appeal and we'll reduce the fine. They reduced it by 60% from $125 million to $50. What is so crazy there is, aside from any facts of that case, that $125 million was just guaranteed money for the SEC. And there were no investor losses in that case. So it was just going to the SEC.

And before Gary Gensler got booted out, Ripple had said, yeah, we'll pay all this money. Let's just nobody appeal and go forward. I mean, so that money was on the table. And the fact that the SEC just used the quote unquote, you drop your appeal, we'll cut our fine to walk away just shows how much and how quickly they're going the other way. And what it does for Ripple is now once this thing is finally signed and dotted and over

with in what I think would be 60 days or less, the institutional sales are back on, more of their ability to do other sales, other products use their stablecoin that's on XRP. They also have a stablecoin on Ethereum and they'll be able to blow up as well. That just goes obviously for Ripple, but for every other company that the SEC has targeted. Man, Ripple was one of the first, although I do want to say we've all forgotten about Block One and EOS. They probably were the first to get tagged by the SEC, but it they never recovered from it. Yeah, but sorry to interrupt here, but that was a completely different case. I mean, Block One never, I'm not which is that's another transaction right

there. I don't think black won ever delivered on anything they basically promised. Right. I mean, he was another technical issue, but whatever. But I mean, that was a complete other case. Right. Now you're right. It definitely was way different than the ripple case.

But in a way how they created the coin, I mean, that's probably where you could say the similarity. It's just when I was looking back through all the years of the crazy SEC cases, I was like, oh, I kind of forgot about Block One and the way they just faded off into obscurity. But you're right, it was very significantly different. They faded off into obscurity, though, with over 100,000 Bitcoin, right? Yeah, exactly. 150? I don't remember what the exact number is, but there were the largest holders on the

planet of Bitcoin after EOS. It didn't turn out too poorly. No, not at all. No, it didn't. But yeah, at the end of the day, you know, this was the ripple case was the biggest case that the crypto case that the SEC had going and the farthest, you know, it's a lot easier to get rid of Coinbase and cracking and all those cases were just so early stage. And again, the fact that outside of what you think about XRP and ripple, the

fact that the SEC had all this money on the table that they could have easily walked away with and said, no, we'll cut it down and walk away, is recognition of the new leadership that, hey, we really were pretty messed up and we didn't give you guys any set of rules to follow. We recognize it. We're sorry. And it's a new age going forward. And I think the settling of that case, because of the money that was involved, you know, is the exclamation point that, you know, it's a new day. Yeah, just a quick one. And I think also that they want their aim is to reestablish relationship with the builders in this space, to basically tell them, don't be scared of us, come talk to us, come interact

with us. And I think this is the coverage that is actually missing. I think they're doing all these great actions and they're showing to the market great signals, but I think the coverage from like a reporting standpoint is basically not reflecting this, not rebuilding, helping them rebuild that trust. And I think this is a missing link because many builders are still afraid of the SEC. Seems like they're becoming less afraid. So we also have the US SEC concluding its investigation into Web3 gaming platform mutable with no enforcement charges. So

are there any of these even left outstanding? It seems like they've basically dropped every outstanding. It seems like they've basically dropped every investigation that existed and the task force is basically pivoting to only looking at fraud, which is their job in the first place. It feels like the SEC is no longer a threat. We also had the news that the SEC will continue to have roundtables with the industry. It was either four or five more this year. So obviously, we have a constructive relationship now with the SEC. And unless I think you're doing something gratuitously wrong, it feels like most people's impression is that we're all systems go in the United States, at least to interact with them and see what's allowed. That said, we still do

need more clear regulation on safe harbor, what is or is not a security and obviously clear legislation. But like, you know, we're two months into this thing, we've gotten more than I would have ever sort of imagined by this time. Amitel, you were throwing up the hundreds there. I mean, I know you agree, but it's hard to take that the SEC is threatening anyone in the crypto industry right now who's a good actor.

Yeah, I mentioned this yesterday, but I think that what we saw, there was even the announcement that they're going to be dropping broad enforcement actions and I think the reality is they're going from a shotgun, very expensive style approach to a deeper prosecution of fraud, bad actors, and I think we're going to see a lot of cleaning up around the industry as a result of this.

So I think that what we're seeing is that it's a green light for good players trying to do the right thing. Be able to do so and then have some kind of grandfathering in once there is legislation without having to deal with like some kind of unbelievable legal overhead that they're going to have to accommodate no matter what they do. But at the same time, I think that there is a deeper risk for people who want to come into this market and manipulate, take advantage, there will be consequences that are specific, that are sophisticated in a way that we just haven't seen before.

Dave? Yeah, I think that the builder community is scarred sufficiently that it's going to take a while for re-establishment of trust, but I do think that that is underway. It's once again, it's the same theme, thematically, similar to what I said before. I mean, these things take time. But what will happen is if there is a blueprint or if there is a statements from, and look, you know, Atkins is, I guess his hearing is tomorrow. Kinten's don't know when hysteria, they both should sail through Elizabeth Warren's nonsense nonwithstanding.

And so, my guess is that you'll see something before the early summer, in terms of, if not official guidance, in terms of the building community knowing what they can do, who they could talk to. And for example, I'm kind of hemming and hawing over this, but understand that the push towards governance tokens is a perfect example. What's a governance token? A governance token is a token that a builder wants to lift to raise money that doesn't give economic rights to the holders because under Howie, it would have potentially tripped

it. You'll start getting guidance or at least law firms willing to stick their, you know, write good letters for people that say, okay, here's what you can do and here's how it can do. Those are the signs that matter for the building community. If you're an actual builder and you're funded, you're gonna be looking,

people are gonna be more interested. If you're planning to do sorts of things, those sorts of plans are gonna to start to come out. That's the sort of stuff that when we talk about builders, we mean. Just to be very clear in terms of the investment side, look, it's a mess right now because you have all these exchanges, Coinbase, Kraken, now Robinhood-owning, Bitstamp. You have three very large ones in the United States who have arguably a sophisticated, a vertically integrated model that is completely different than what you have in securities. It's going to have to get resolved. There's

going to be a lot of conversations about it. Trust me, their conversations are already happening. It's not like this stuff is not known by the people on the crypto task force. And I can't talk about it too much because I'm not going to give away any inside baseball, but they are very deeply looking at all of these issues right now in a way that if the community knew it, they would say, oh yeah, that's going to work out pretty well. I mean, I'm not being sarcastic. It's something she can't tell and it's just voice. There really is a move inside the Commission to try to understand and go back to a world where the first rule is do no harm, right? Because that's important. I mean, Hester Peiris had given a speech a few years ago, one of

her most brilliant ones, where she talked about the Hippocratic oath of doing no Harm, that is the philosophy that infuses this SEC. And that is a massive difference between the way it used to be. Mark. Yeah, thanks, Scott. Dave, going back to your examination of how the SEC is going to drive or hinder. I think when we look at the, we start the conversation talking about the purchases by Kraken and about what's going to be the next driver. Will it be the 20X traders in Asia or is it going to be the banks in the US? And I think one measure that I'm probably going to adopt after this call is what is expedient versus what is impactful. And like stablecoins, I think we all agree

is impactful because it impacts the banking system, the trillions of dollars of federal debt that can be absorbed or used as collateral, you know, tremendously impactful, as well as the amount of people that are employed by banks who can maybe remain employed. So from that standpoint, huge impactful. Um, but I guess for this crowd, I love us, Scott, if we could potentially, you know, put us all on the hook to say, by that 180 day deadline by the executive order, I don't know who brought that up, Zillion or Amateo. Um, what do we expect to have done. What do we expect to have done?

What do we expect to have impact the price? What action will drive Bitcoin, Ethereum, the prices of the market by that 180 day? Will it be a resolution on the Stablecoin Act passed, which Dave, you said probably won't happen? Or will it be wire houses adopting Bitcoin, which obviously has the clearest path to regulatory approval as a commodity by all the regulators? So I guess that's what I would say,

is what do we expect by 180 that July date to impact price? Before you go on, everyone else, just let me answer what I said. The stablecoin bill, look, until, I guess the markup of the house bill is this week. And if the house bill is similar to the genius act I think they're all called

different things. Are that could actually move along very expeditiously. But market structure not to get taken up until after that's done and so that'll be definitely outside of the July timeframe. If we're only speaking specifically about price, Mark, I think most of the catalysts

we were looking for are well on their way. I don't know that those things are going to send price. I mean, Dave and I always joke the only best marketing for Bitcoin is higher prices on Bitcoin. And so I think we just need sort of a groundswell of price rising to get the FOMO kicking back in to some degree. But I don't think, you know, we got an executive order on a strategic Bitcoin reserve and price didn't move, really. Right. So I mean, I can't imagine a bigger catalyst than that outside of just the market conditions improving and confidence increasing.

than that outside of just the market conditions improving and confidence increasing. Yeah, I agree. It is. If you read the news, if you had the newspaper in the middle of last year for today, you would not expect 87,000 Bitcoin for sure. Yeah, I'm a 10. Yeah, I think it's a great question, Mark. I'm not really sure, but we do have the DC Blockchain Summit today, so I just wanted to mention that. And there's a lot of big names, including Hester Pierce and everyone else, Cynthia Loomis, et cetera. I don't know if there's anything that we should anticipate being new coming from this event.

It's very possible. They do like to sandwich announcements with these events to build a lot of hype for better or for worse. It's not really gone in the market favor even when we've had good news. But I think what we will have as a result of today's event is an even deeper clarity on the narrative shift around digital assets and stable coins, as well as more perspective policy of what we can expect to happen. So I don't really know the answer to that, Mark, but I think that hopefully today actually

brings a little bit more clarity towards that answer so that we can all kind of set our sights towards the end of that mandate. Does anyone see it? Go ahead, Mark. Mark, you can go ahead. I saw you were jumping in. Yeah, I was just saying thanks for that. As a former risk manager, you look at what you think is going to happen and why it doesn't, and you just say, is it a coiled spring?

And you keep looking for a catalyst that will bridge that gap from what Scott was saying about the executive order exactly. I mean, I'll never sell Bitcoin by the largest financialized economy in the world. There can't be bigger news besides God and Allah and self coming down and saying something. So the Digital Asset Summit would love to have some clarity on some things like maybe what Dave was saying about the house bill, seeding control from a purely federal regulated entity, having the ability to be a PPSI to maybe states as well. Those types of things falling would be great to see. But again, I think the near term will be

industry. A wirehouse saying, our 15,000 brokers are going to sell Bitcoin. That would be a home run. Although, once again, we had BlackRock saying that they will be adding their ETFs to a number of their funds, recommending 1% to 3% exposure. We saw quietly news from Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan over the past four or five months, and it hasn't really moved it. I think we're just in this environment now where news is passe because we've seen so much good news that it's very hard for anything to be massively impactful.

Does anybody, I mean, Mark, I think one of those things would be impactful, but the news everyone was watching for once again, that was the, oh, straight to 120 was an SBR. Maybe if we get the Lumis's legislation, I think that would send it flying for a strategic Bitcoin reserve or the United States actively buying. US buying would be huge, but that would be stupid. Hopefully we don't advertise that. But if you're stacking, like most people on this call,

it would be nice. The BlackRock news is absolutely bedeviling. I have no idea how a captive $150 billion pool of capital announces one to 2% allocation allocation and it was freaking crickets. The only thing I guess, Scott, on that I would say is we underestimate how large the pool of capital is away from BlackRock. I had a meeting yesterday with a wealth manager and the only person they've had on a webinar was an anti-crypto person in the last 12 months to engage why they're not involved.

So that's my only thing, we underestimate how big the wirehouses are. Even though they've had, as you said, productive conversations and sentiment shifts, the green light's not on for unsolicited engagement. Absolutely agree. Yes, I have another commitment to go ahead and move to rap yet again, another great panel. Dave, you're gonna be hosting tomorrow, right?

While I'm absent last time for a while, I promise. Don't make promises you can't keep, Scott. Well, if only that guy whose co-host picture is up next to me would show up every once in a while, or maybe that other Rand Nooner guy, you know, whose picture is there. But to be honest, you're better than all of us. So looking forward to listening to the show back tomorrow after you host everybody. Give everyone on stage a follow. Otherwise, see you tomorrow for Crypto Town Hall.

Later.