The Wolf Of All Streets - The Bitcoin Super cycle with Blockworks co-founder Jason Yanowitz

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

Leaving traditional finance in favor of cryptocurrency, Jason Yanowitz knew he couldn’t work in any other sector ever again. As the co-founder of Blockworks, Yanowitz has not only played a pivotal role in developing media in the crypto space for growing institutional interest, but he has also helped build Melker’s podcast to what it is today. He believes that not only is crypto an improvement on traditional finance, but it is offering the first chance in history for retail investors to front-run institutions’ slow arrival to the crypto space.  In this episode, Melker and Yanowitz discuss a range of topics including: A Bitcoin super cycle Learning from Reddit and Twitter “This time is different” Coinbase becoming a top 5 company VanEck’s Bitcoin ETF Coindesk vs The Wall Street Journal 2017’s frenzy Crypto’s infrastructure Regret minimization framework Short Squeezes and Melvin Capital Front running institutions --- VOYAGER This episode is brought to you by Voyager, your new favorite crypto broker. Trade crypto fast and commission-free the easy way. Earn up to 9.5% interest on top coins with no lockups and no limits. Go to https://www.investvoyager.com/ and download the Voyager app and use code “SCOTT25” to get $25 in free Bitcoin when you create your account. --- Mina Protocol Mina is the world's lightest blockchain, powered by participants. Rather than apply brute computing force, Mina uses advanced cryptography and recursive zk-SNARKs to ensure a super-light and constant sized chain, that allows participants to quickly sync and verify the network. The team behind Mina is backed by VCs such as Coinbase Ventures, and Mina's adversarial testnet was the largest public testnet outside of ETH 2.0. To get involved ahead of Mina’s mainnet, visit https://minaprotocol.com/wolf --- Matcha 0x Matcha is the easiest way to trade in DeFi. Matcha enables traders to seamlessly swap tokens using 20+ aggregated liquidity sources that deliver better prices than going to a centralized exchange or Uniswap. Connect your wallet and start today at https://matcha.xyz/wolf --- Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co

What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. From the very first episode of this podcast to today, there's been one company that has been by my side, and that company is BlockWorks. And today's guest, the co-founder of BlockWorks, and actually is the person responsible for this podcast. He's the one who reached out and convinced me that I should do it, but I've been waiting for a very long time to actually have him on the show. And not because he's the person who convinced me to do a podcast, but because Jason has a really unique vantage point in how the crypto space is growing, how media and data will play a pivotal role moving forward. So Jason, I'm glad we finally got to do this. Thanks so much for coming on. Scott, thanks for the hype up intro. I'm not sure I'm deserving of it, but it's nice to be here. Yeah, man, you got to go big. So before we get into the questions, once again, you're listening

to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, which airs twice a week, where I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading, art, music, sports, politics, basically anyone with a good story to tell. This podcast is powered by BlockWorks, the fastest growing media company in the digital asset space. BlockWorks has 20 Bitcoin and crypto podcasts. I'm excited to be a part of their network. Visit blockworks.co for access to the highest quality information in the space. I promise you will not be disappointed. Now that I've talked about them, you can also check me out at thewolfofallstreets.io. I'm less important. So anyways, let's get on to what actually matters here,

our conversation. So you guys are building like crazy over at Blockworks. Obviously, I have the intimate knowledge of what you guys are doing, but I saw you tweet yesterday that you had over 100 applications in a single day for jobs. That's insane.

What are people rushing to do with you guys? And what's it like going through all those applicants? Yeah, we had 118 applicants yesterday. It's crazy. So we have, we have, we're hiring like crazy. We just doubled the size of the team in the last 60 days, and we're going to double again this year. So it's, I don't know, we were joking before we hit the record button that we kind of missed the bear market days when we could get seven to eight hours of sleep a night and things were a little bit calmer, but it's crazy. Like we usually get, I don't know, five, 10, 20 applications a day. Things have started ramping up 118 applicants yesterday for we're hiring reporters. We're

hiring journalists, content creators, podcasts, hosts, newsletter writers. We're hiring editors. We're hiring on the marketing side of things. So we need someone to come run our social media with all the content that we're putting out. We're hiring sales, right? So we can get into the Blockworks business model, but we have a really great sales team. So yeah, it's crazy. And then we got about 20 people who emailed us, just said, I'm your perfect candidate. You don't have any roles open for me based on my background, but they were just pitching us on different roles, which is, it's cool to see that as well. That's awesome. I'm curious if you see it as a function of increased interest in crypto specifically, or is it a result of people losing jobs throughout the last year, and they're being sort of a less robust employment market? Or do you think it's a combination of

both? It's not people losing jobs, because I think those folks, like people lost jobs a year ago when COVID hit, but the job market's coming back. And also when you look at anecdotally, when you see job folks who have left their jobs or who got fired, the first thing they do is they don't go join a crypto company because of the nature of riskiness. Those are people who just got laid off and they might wanna go to like a Fortune 500 or a large venture-backed company or something like that. One of the best parts about my job is I get to see a crazy amount of data on who is interested in crypto, because by the nature of being a media company,

we have 20 different podcasts, we have webinars, conferences, newsletters. So I can actually see who the hell is interested in this stuff, right? So when people on Twitter say big banks or institutions or portfolio managers are interested, I can actually say, I know the 300 firms that are looking at this in real time because they're spending time on our website right now. So when you look to see who's applying to our jobs to tie this full circle, the people who are applying are folks from traditional financial and capital markets and some tech people. But a lot of people are leaving finance right now, which is I mean, you just got to love to see it.

Yeah, you do. So, I mean, you guys started basically it's my understanding it was before I knew you, but you started basically as an event company. Right. You were doing conferences and stuff. You got into podcasts. You've made a huge pivot of late, which is to be a full-on media company, right? And so like your website and all the research you guys are doing, there had to be a reason that you decided to focus on that with all these other things that you have going on. So what are you seeing that made you guys decide that, you know, becoming a full-on media company, customer-facing, you know, public-facing was the right move? Yeah, it's a good question. So, I think to understand the context of this pivot, which I don't even think it was really a pivot, it was more of just an extension of our

existing business. I think you have to understand the beginning of our business, which was we had one goal when we set out to build Blockworkss, which, you know, it used to be called BlockWorks Group, right? It was an events business with one goal, which was to help investors from the traditional worlds of finance understand crypto. I used to work at this venture capital firm. I worked for these real old school Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns guys. I know you have a bunch of buddies who used to work at those firms. And these guys, they were angry. They were old school. I was the young guy at this venture firm. I tried convincing them to at least take a look at Bitcoin. One guy, I don't know, he's like probably 65 years old, said, all right, fine. Send me some information on Bitcoin. So naturally, I mean, you've been in

the space for a while. What I did is I pulled up Reddit and I pulled up Twitter and I sent them things from like Crypto Panda and Crypto Bobby and like CoinDesk, which, you know, those are where I get my information. But if you're a 65 year old gray haired VC person from Lehman Brothers, you have zero interest in spending time on Reddit and Twitter, right? Especially for this kind of new asset class. And so that's what kicked off BlockWorks Group is just saying, all right, like let's translate this like in 2017, right? As all these ICOs and real scheming and scamming. And Mike and I would go to these events all the time

and there's like pumping ICOs. And, but we said, there's something here. So that was the original formation of BlockWorks Group was talking to this institutional audience and saying, instead of talking about this space in terms of like ZK snarks and zero knowledge proofs, let's say, look, it's a small market cap space with a lot of room for alpha, right? And when you say that, a hedge fund manager's ears perk up. And so what we've done for the last three years is just translate crypto into a way that traditional capital markets and financial

markets, people can understand it. So tying this full circle, when we launched our editorial business in January, we've already been doing this for three years or two years, but this was just, it's another way to get these folks to understand the space. And we can dive into it more and we can talk about our business and new business. Yeah. I'm really curious as to what you've learned. You touched on it earlier. You said, you know, when people talk about institutional investors or whether it's retail or who it is and these companies that are involved, you said you're seeing it because they're spending time on your site. So I'm curious what insights you've gotten in the past couple months.

Maybe there's some that people are assuming and are completely wrong, right? Because in 2017, we heard institutional money's here all the time and it wasn't, right? Totally. This time it's different. So I'm wondering if there are any like perhaps rumors going around that can be dispelled and if not, just what you are seeing in that as far as the trends with who is coming into the space is interested. Yeah. So let's talk about the last few years. So 2017, the market absolutely rips, right? The thing goes from like a thousand bucks to 20,000 bucks. It was insane. Everyone's making money hand over fist, but what was lacking was not the interest in the space, but the infrastructure

in the space. And so that's a key differentiator, which was, you look at companies that are huge today. Like, I mean, Blockworks didn't exist back then. BlockFi didn't exist back then. BitGo was an inkling of like what it is now. Fireblocks didn't exist. So all of these infrastructure providers who the traditional asset managers are using today, they didn't exist back then. So even if an asset manager wanted to get into the space, they couldn't, right? Because they have a fiduciary responsibility to protect their assets.

So when I'm going and holding my money on like, I'm not going to say where I hold it, but like it's very different than where a hedge fund manager puts their Bitcoin. So that's what we saw over the last few years is the demand has increased, over the last few years is the demand has increased, but the more important thing is the infrastructure increased. And that's the biggest differentiator between back then and now. Interest is really similar. Infrastructure

is here. Now what we see today is what's interesting is I think there's probably too much focus on the BlackRock's and Morgan Stanley's of the world. I agree. You know, the Morgan Stanley news was absolutely massive yesterday. They managed $4 trillion. BlockWorks had really good coverage of that. They're using NYDIG and Galaxy. They have an investment in NYDIG, right?

So that news is important. But what's way more interesting that we see is the long tail of funds. So it's not, I'm less interested in JP Morgan getting into crypto and Bitcoin. What I'm interested in are the thousands and tens of thousands of two to 10 person hedge funds around the world that are starting to allocate to Bitcoin. Yeah, I agree. Also, the Morgan Stanley news, I was kind of looking into it. It's a bit misleading. I mean, it's very exciting that they're interested and that they're offering it, but they're only offering it to people who hold $2 million

with Morgan Stanley and to investment firms that have $5 million with Morgan Stanley. So in my eyes, something like that is yet another sort of white glove product and it has very little to do with actual mainstream adoption you know well what happened behind the scenes there is um is there were a ton of folks who a lot of people who hold like 100 million dollars at morgan stanley don't didn't want to buy bitcoin but if you hold like a million dollars or a million and a half or two million those are the group of people who are like a little, you know, they're down to take a little more risks. They want to multiply their wealth faster than, you know,

if you already have a hundred million bucks, you're not trying to, you know, make 40%, 50% returns in a year. You're just trying to preserve. Right. But the people who have like a million dollars, they see this light at the end of the tunnel where they're like, I could buy Bitcoin, turn that 1 million into 10. So what happened with Morgan Stanley is they had a lot, and this is from someone who's been working pretty closely with them. They had a lot of clients who had like a million and a half with Morgan Stanley. And by setting that at $2 million, it says, hey, look, if you give us more

assets, we can help you buy Bitcoin. So it was a nice little sales technique. Exactly my assumption. It's a great sales technique. Yeah, we just need a half million more of your money and then we'll let you touch Bitcoin. The irony of what you just said, though, is that, well, if you follow the Michael Saylors and the corporations and the Teslas of the world, you would say it's the people with 100 million who actually need to buy a significant stake in Bitcoin to protect their wealth, because obviously holding it in other assets, it's going to either depreciate or be inflated away, certainly if they hold it in dollars. So I'm actually a bit surprised or I would expect that more of those huge clients would want $3 million in Bitcoin if you have $100 million, something like that. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. And I will say

one interesting insight that we have is that there are a lot of other Morgan Stanley's of the world. Right. So even though we're kind of I don't know, we like to turn our head at this. It is massive news. Right. And what's you know, I we can literally, you know, kind of see a creepy amount of data on people like who's you know, what. Excuse me. Organizations are looking at our web are reading our newsletter. And some of the companies that are reading our newsletter more than any other organization are JP Morgan, Goldman, BNY Mellon, State Street, BNP Paribas. And that's where it gets interesting. Morgan Stanley is now a one-off where they're kind of like a first mover. But where it gets interesting is when every other investment bank is doing this and every other asset manager is doing this.

Because then that just makes it so that Bitcoin is another asset class. It makes it much more boring because the upside potential is decreased. And Ari Paul has talked a lot about this. I was just going to say, I read Ari Paul's thread just the other day. I included it in my newsletter where he basically said, listen, the disproportionate upside opportunity was 2015 to 2018, right? Or whatever. Even if you got caught in the bubble, you still had those opportunities to buy at $3,000, $4,000. And maybe Bitcoin itself as an asset now becomes a bit more stable, has more upside than stocks, but it's not this get rich sort of opportunity that it was before. I think that's true, but I think it also discounts the

rest of the space to some degree. There's plenty of coins and projects and companies that are going to do 100, 500,000 X multiples that are being built, don't you i do i do think so i mean if you look at i think it's important to just remember though like if you look at coin market cap over the last you know 11 years there have been i mean i've been in the space long enough since i i got you know i haven't i'm not like a real og but i've been in it since 2015 and like there there's always been there have been coins that have gone like this and cycled through and cycled through. And 2017, I was so convinced

that there were other things that were going to overtake Ethereum and Bitcoin and all this stuff. And I got caught in the hype cycle. And look what's remained. It's Bitcoin and Ethereum, right? Right. And so I think there is that potential for the 500X,

but like, there's also, you know, it's a risk return. It's also a 0X. Yeah, exactly. And we know that most of them will do that. Yeah, it just depends what type of like person you are, right? You trade and I know you also most like hold most of your coins and then some percentage of your portfolio you trade, right? And so it just depends what type of person you are. Right. So they're all coming. I mean,

they're reading your website. They saw Morgan Stanley. So that is going to happen. Yeah. Here's a crazy stat. We usually have a year ago, we were adding 10 to 20 people to our newsletter a day. We have this daily newsletter, an ex hedge fund trader writes it. I'm, I'm very biased, but I'm convinced it's by far the best newsletter in the entire space. It almost pisses me off. Aside from, uh, and, uh, but okay. So 10 to 20 people were joining our newsletter a day yesterday. We added 365 people in one day to our newsletter. Last Wednesday, we added 528 people in one day to the newsletter. And the open rate, I mean, it's nothing like the Wolf Den's open rate, but our open rate is skyrocketing as well. It's now past 40%. We have

over a 40% open rate. That's crazy for a free newsletter. Yeah. Hundreds of people a day, which is just, you don't really see things like this. No, I think the standard's like 10% or less. Yeah. For a free newsletter, for a daily free newsletter, if you get 10, 20% to open, you're doing exceptionally well. Okay, so they're all coming. So what happens when they get here? What happens when every one of these investment banks, every single investment manager opens the floodgates to their clientele for Bitcoin? There are two paths that this goes, right? I think,

okay, so there are a few ways to answer that question. One is the thing that everyone cares about is what price is Bitcoin going to, right? And I'll throw out numbers, right? Like I think this goes to at least 250,000 in this cycle. Great. At a bare minimum, right? And what you could see is it goes to 250,000, 300,000, and then it falls back down. Like it's done in every other cycle, right? That's important to remember. Think 10Xs from the bottom or from the top or whatever it is, and then it comes back down, right? This time though

could be different because if you look at who's been buying historically and if you just look at the data it's primarily retail like we talked about in 2017 there was retail infrastructure but not institutional infrastructure so in the same way that gamestop goes up and it comes down like if you look at 2017 it was. It was my high school buddies and, you know, cousins and stuff like that. Bitcoin goes up and then people get scared and then the media scares them and then they sell because they don't actually care about Bitcoin. But this time you have insurance funds, you have pension funds, you have sovereign wealth funds. Not only are they not flipping it, they're legally not allowed to flip it.

They legally cannot sell it, right? That's, they take so long to do due diligence. I know an insurance fund that hasn't announced that they've bought Bitcoin yet. They did due diligence for three years before buying Bitcoin. I do due diligence for like 48 hours. It's just, it's because once they buy it, they can't sell it. And that's the difference. So we could go to 250K and go down, or we could go to 250K, and this could be a super cycle. And we keep on ripping up to seven figures.

Well, I mean, I think that rationally, it makes sense because of what you just described. It will have cycles, but they'll be minimized, at least minimized to the downside, because we have a more well-established floor with an asset that has a reduced supply. So it's hard to compare it to stocks or other things when you know that every single day that passes, there's going to be less of it mined, and there's more of it being removed from the market. So I agree with you. I don't think that we go to 250 and see an 85% drawdown. Yeah. I mean, the thing to understand that more and more people are catching on to is in the same way that the US dollar is designed to go down, the value is literally designed to go down. People in crypto

and Bitcoin think that's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. It's created the US economy, which is the most powerful economy in the world. It's fine. That's the way that we designed it. And it's actually good, right? But it's just important to understand that. So in the way that the US dollar is designed to go down, Bitcoin is fundamentally designed to go up, right? And more and more people are catching on to it. You talk about the debt-based system as being good, and I understand it's good because it functions,

but most people don't understand that, and so they don't buy an asset to hedge against that. That's good if you work in the system, but also store your value elsewhere. But it's been very hard to do that throughout time. So Bitcoin maybe works well as a complement to that system if you understand it and decide to store your wealth there, right? Totally. Totally.

Yeah. And so for me, that's important to clarify because Yeah. And so for me, like that's a important, you know, important to clarify because the system's made that way, but it's not made that way to protect wealth for your average person. Yeah. Let me, let me actually flip this on you and ask you a question here, which is you, I think you went to Penn, like undergrad, like one of the best schools in the world. I'm sure a bunch of your buddies went and worked in finance and worked in Wall Street. I went to Emory down in Atlanta. I had a close group of six friends. Five of them went and worked in investment banking, right? It's like, that's what you do in that world. And I'm just curious to get your take on what your friends'

opinions, who have been working in finance for 20 years, what do they think about Bitcoin right now? It's a mixed bag, to be honest, but I would say that the number going up as dramatically as it has of late has made the conversations a lot easier for me. In 2017, they definitely laughed. You know, speculative bubble, it's going to pop. One of my friends says it's going down to $3,000. When it was at 20, he was right. So I can't, you know, it's hard to say much. The thing is they left it for dead, you know, and it's sort of the cycle we all talk about is that they started to get interested again at 20. Holy crap, when it blew through 20 and 40, maybe I'll get serious about this, but I'll buy it a little lower on the dip. And now they're thinking about buying it in the 50s and 60,000s. But I would say that they take it more seriously as an asset now. So the it's

going to zero conversation is gone. And that remained for the first years and years and years that I was doing this. So I do think that there's been a narrative shift or at least an opinion shift where the asset and those of us who participate in this market are taken more seriously than we were before. It's nice. It's a vindication because I was definitely the crazy guy like in the padded room screaming to myself about Bitcoin and nobody was listening. So yeah. What's your experience? Are your friends, are they coming around or were they young enough that they already were listening? My friends are in their 40s.

Yeah, I mean, I know actually, surprisingly enough, they're not coming around because I think I think that folks don't really understand what it is. And that's the biggest issue. Right. And so like that's I mean, one of the things that Blockworks is trying to fix is just putting this like, if you go on Coin, I'm actually not going to mention different media companies. But like if you go on a lot of these websites right now, it's like proof of stake mechanism launches on Hobie sidechain. Nobody understands. Binance, smart contract. And like my buddies go on those sites and they're like, what the hell am I reading? Right? And so like, that's one of the things we're trying to fix.

But no, I mean, they're not buying it because at $20,000, they said, great. When it falls back down to 15, I'll buy it. When it hit 30,000, they said, great. When it goes to 20,000, I'll buy it. And now it's 60,000. And guess what they're waiting for when it goes back to 50,000, right?

And so, you know, that's just how it works. And at this point I've stopped kind of trying to, to be the hype for it, but they would consider buying it, which I think at least for me, that was the difference is that they would, usually there's a host of excuses though. You know what happens, Scott is like, I think there's this basically cycle that people take. Everybody takes it. Like truly everybody I've ever met takes this cycle, which is they say they find Bitcoin, right? Bitcoin is being talked about on CNBC or Bloomberg or their friend sends them a message about it. They get interested in Bitcoin. Then they find Ethereum and they say, guys, I think I found the new Bitcoin. There's this, I get texts all the time being like, what do you know about Ethereum? I think I found the new Bitcoin. I'm like, first off, I don't think you found anything.

And they find Ethereum. Then what happens is they say, in 2016, 2017, it was enterprise blockchain, right? They say, oh, Ethereum. I love the blockchain. Yeah. Ethereum is going to change. Ethereum is going to They say, oh, Ethereum. I love the blockchain. Yeah. Ethereum is going to change. Ethereum is going to change X, Y, Z.

So back in 2017, it was Ethereum is going to change enterprise blockchain. And so they'd start talking about enterprise blockchain. They say, look, Bitcoin doesn't matter. Blockchain matters. We all know that's kind of foo-foo now. Now what it is is they say, all right, I don't like Bitcoin.

I found this thing, Ethereum. Actually, I don't like Ethereum. I like this thing called DeFi. I like NFTs. Then they get into the space, they start buying it. Someone exit scams on them and DeFi or something like that. Not to say DeFi is not great, but, and then they come all the way back around to Bitcoin. For some people that takes months. And for some people that takes years. And for some people that takes years. I never thought about that cycle. That's totally true. And the same friend of mine who said it would go down to 3000 is now like super, super into NBA Top Shot. Just like you said, he loves that. One day, a few weeks ago, he's like, I found this site. I'm going to go in here. I'm in line for these packs. I don't know what's happening, but like I'm flipping them for four times the amount of money. And, you know, it's a lot of fun. It harkens back to our days. Certainly people my age of like trading baseball cards and things like that. But I think you're right. And NFTs and DeFi open to completely new avenues for completely new kinds of people to find sort of a footing in the crypto space, I think. Very much so. I mean,

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So I'm curious what other trends you're seeing, because now you have so much access to this data and so much insight as to who's here. Do you see a huge retail boom when you talk about 300 people signing up for a newsletter in one day? Is that 200 people that work at Goldman and Morgan Stanley, or is it my mom and dad and friends who are casually interested who are coming to check out some basic information on the space? Yeah. So the trends that I'm seeing, so let's talk about it in three buckets, the non block works related trends that I'm seeing. I just talked to, got off a call, I think it was two days ago with one of the biggest VC firms in the space.

And they said in the same way that, so in 2018, everything that they funded or excuse me, in 2018 and 2019, everything that they invested in was was infrastructure companies, custodians, lenders. Yeah, exactly. Picks and axes 2019 and 2020, what they invested in was DeFi, right? 2020 and 2020. And then a year, 12 to 18 months, you see that play out, right? 2020 to 2021, what you're seeing is they're investing in all of these platforms

that try to take crypto into the mainstream, which is NFT platforms, ticketing platforms, things like that. And for anyone who's listening, who's been in the space for a while, my gut reaction to that is we've already done that. That stuff doesn't work, right? 2016 or 2017, there's like all these ticketing platforms. It doesn't work. What I've come to realize after pushing back and getting in some like nice little debates is the analogy that you can draw is if you look at in 2000, there was this massive.com run up and then they all went, they all, it all burst. Right. But like pets.com that didn't like pets.com was a great business. It was just too early. It's just 20 years later, we have

Chewy or whatever it's called. And it's a phenomenal business. It's the exact same thing as pets.com, right? There were ride sharing companies in the two thousands. Well, what you needed was an iPhone, right? But we didn't have an iPhone. So the ride sharing businesses didn't work. It doesn't mean ride sharing. Wasn't a business, Uber and Lyft, right? So what I think crypto is waiting for is just its iPhone moment in the same way that the dot-com companies, they needed their iPhone moment and crypto is still waiting for its iPhone moment. Well, how far is that iPhone moment away? And what do you conjecture that that could potentially be? I think things like NBA Top Shots, it's not an iPhone moment, but it's starting... I don't know what the iPhone moment is, is the honest answer, but things like NBA Top Shots, that's starting to see it's like what an iPhone moment could look like when within

one week, tens of... Not just tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people are buying crypto and they don't even know it. Right. Absolutely. That's so true. I think that that actually is sort of the, it will be the inevitable consequence of central bank digital currencies as well, is when like there becomes this just familiarity with using digital wallets, transacting digitally that'll naturally just start to flow into Bitcoin. At least that's what I'm hopeful of. But I think that could be a huge moment for crypto if literally central banks just start saying, hey, man, we're going to transact digitally. Right. I mean, because I've always argued that one of the biggest barriers to mainstream adoption is

people just don't want to learn how to do it. Yeah. I'm unbelievably not excited about central bank digital currencies. Oh, I think they're going to be horrible, but I think they'll push people to Bitcoin. Totally. Yeah. I tend to agree with you. I mean, eventually everyone will have a digital wallet, right? I don't know if you've been to China, but when you go to China, you have one app. You have an app and you have a digital wallet. It's your, it's Uber. It's your credit cards. It's your bank account. It's where you shop. It's your messaging app, right? It's one app. And it's such a better system than what we have in the States.

There are horrible data privacy things and you lose a ton of privacy and trade there are all these issues with it right but i think americans have shown that a lot of americans don't really give two shits about their privacy if that gives them more convenience and so but i think what we will end up having is just a a digital a digital wallet and it'll be crypto based and we'll use stable coins you'll hold your bitcoin there you'll hold your u.s, which are CBDC. So that's what the future looks like. So what kind of growth are you seeing specifically? Well, let's talk about in the podcast space, because you've been doing this for, you've been doing this for four years now and you just decided to start your own podcast. So I want to talk about that for sure. If that be great. But I'm curious why clearly you think that there's a lot of growth still

in media, in crypto, if you're doing that, correct? So how's that going and why'd you make that decision? Yeah. I mean, the future of, so BlockWorks does one thing really well, right? And which is we help investors understand this space. We have a few different buckets of folks. You have asset managers, you have financial services professionals, you have markets professionals like traders and things like that. That's our target audience. The way that people are consuming content is changing. It's changing pretty rapidly, right? So if you look at other media businesses in crypto, they're either funded by billionaires. So there are three other, three to four other media companies in crypto, right? That we pay attention to. I'm not

going to name the names. One of them has raised a boatload of venture capital and is not profitable. One of them, so they're losing money every year. Another one is funded by a guy who's worth probably like $10 billion at this point. Another one is owned by a guy who created the second biggest digital currency in the world. So he can bankroll them. And another one is owned by this, like, I don't know, someone in Russia who nobody knows who they're owned by. Right. And so like, when I see that, I see opportunity and I see businesses that maybe in the short term are going to make a lot of money. Like if you look at Coindesk's traffic, Coindesk is doing like 40 million page views a month right now. It's insane. It's amazing. And I'm kind of talking about these companies in bad light right now, but I love all of these media

companies because I know how tough media is. And I'm friends with a lot of the people who run them, but the way that we do things is just really differently, which is talk to a hundred of your podcast listeners. I don't think they care as much about like, you know, some of the things that they're putting out that these other media companies are putting out. I think what they, they want are podcasts. They want content in a differentiated light. They want to go deeper on articles, not just have this like clickbait pumped out on Twitter all the time.

So that's what we focus on. So long-winded way of saying, we're just really bullish on podcasts, on longer form video, on deeper dive articles. If I had to summarize what I think other people in the space get wrong, it's, I think that some of these other media companies out there try to dumb things down for their audience, right? And they treat their audience like they're, I don't know, don't understand the space. We think our audience is brilliant and we think our audience is highly intelligent and understands markets incredibly well.

And so we try to hire people and build teams and content that can actually service them, the smartest minds in the space. So it's a pivot away from what obviously works for the majority, but doesn't actually add any value, which we know it's like clickbait, fake news, one minute videos. It's not that it adds no value. It's just it's the shit business model, right? Digital media is a horrible business model. B2B media is an amazing business model. B2B media is focusing on the decision makers, focusing on the investors. Digital media like BuzzFeed, Vox, Vice Media, they went out and raised hundreds of millions of dollars or they got bought by billionaires. They lose so much money every year. And so it's, you know, that's not the game we're trying to play. I worked at Vice for six weeks, actually. I'm sorry to bash your experience. No, no. There was a reason it was only six weeks,

to be quite honest with you. My boss was my one of my bosses was Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys guy. Oh, very fun. It was definitely experienced guys to like run around the office naked, sexually harassing the female and male actually. So to some degree employees is a, it was a real, a really, really an adventure. So I'm curious your experience starting a podcast because I thought it would be super easy. I didn't really know much about them. And then I got there and realized that it wasn't quite as, uh, quite as simple as I thought. Have you, you've done a million of these conversations from this side. Do you find it a challenge to sit on the other side of the, of the mic? I love it. So empire is, uh, the whole idea for empire

is, I don't know if any of your audience listens to, uh, how I built this with Guy Ross, excuse me, it's this NPR podcast, but basically I i went on a i went on a hike with uh pete rizzo in december pete is responsible for building coindesk coindesk probably wouldn't exist if pete rizzo didn't exist um he was sharing all of these insane stories from like 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and like stories of the founders in this space and stories of like Mike Belshi from BitGo holding $20 million worth of Bitcoin under his couch, just these insane stories. And, you know, we always focus on what's happening in the market and we focus on the news and we focus on the trends and we focus on the funding announcements and, you know, the product launches and that's

all great. But what I find more interesting is the stories behind the founders, because building a company is really fucking hard. And there's like, we always hear the good things, but there are bad things too. And that's what Empire tries to do is just uncover some of these stories. So I've loved it. I've sat down with folks like Bobby Ong from, you know, one of the co-founders of CoinGecko and Joe Lubin of Ethereum and Flory Marquez of BlockFi. And the stories they share about the trials and tribulations that go into these companies is just incredible. I also find it to just be this incredible opportunity to learn from someone for an hour who would have maybe never even given you the time of day if you had called about a podcast. I mean, everyone likes to hear themselves talk, right? So I invite them, they say yes. It is a nice little networking play too.

Yeah. It's like a free college education from the best professors in their field. I just find podcasts to be incredible. I want to go back to what you were saying about the coin desk traffic numbers, because they're insane. And also I had, I spoke with, you know, TradingView is the top 100 website in the world. I mean, given that's for stocks, Forex and crypto, but a lot of the growth is in crypto. I mean, these numbers are insane. Yeah. I mean, TradingView is a top 100 website in the entire world. CoinGecko, CoinGecko literally just does like crypto data. They're a top 500 company or top 500 website in the entire world. They're, you know, they're passing up companies like Wall Street Journal and they're, it's amazing to see. So I'm going to pull up some of the data right here. And they're not that complex.

I mean, I'm not, CoinGecko is amazing. I use it literally. I mean, I go back and forth between them and CoinMarketCap. I mean, I use them both daily, but I'm just literally going to check like simple data. What's the market cap? What's the trading volume? What's the price?

You know, it's not like there's, I'm sure they offer them, but I don't use them for deep insights. Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's awesome to see. And I think mainstream media, financial media is, is just looking, looking behind them and seeing these crypto companies come up to them and they're scared. So, you know, and it's, it's nuts how much traffic these companies are doing. So I just pulled up Coindesk's traffic right now. In September, October, November, they were doing about 10 million a month and they were slightly behind Cointelegraph

who is doing like 10 to 11 million a month. Now, last month, Coindesk had 40 million page views. Cointelegraph had 16 million page views. Cointelegraph had 16 million page views. It's just insane. Wow. One six. Yeah. And like, if we look at, they passed them.

And I'll tell you what the Wall Street Journal did. The Wall Street Journal. Okay. So Wall Street Journal is a little ahead of them. Wall Street Journal did 70 million. But if you look at the Wall Street Journal, they have a flat chart. They're completely stagnant. So if you go a year ago, they were doing 70 million today.

They still do 70 million coin desk. And, and if you look, I'm not going to share block works as traffic, but we're like, it's an absolute hockey stick of a graph. Yeah. That's insane. That's insane. What's insane is that we're even talking about them in the same breath as the wall street journal. It's insane. If you had told me that three years ago, I would have laughed. They're like, we could have a conversation comp you know comparing metrics of uh traffic between coindesk and the wall street journal yeah yeah what's nuts is after the gamestop saga

if you open the app uh your iphone and looked in the app store the top nine of the top 10 apps were trading apps yeah they're well they're apps. Yeah, but I know Coinbase is up there, Binance.us was in the top 10 in the United States because I've had those conversations. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I love it. Like it, I mean, it's good and bad, right?

Trading is becoming a little more entertainment than it is, but it's amazing, right? It's so fun to see. And it's cool to see, you used to just have large portfolio managers at hedge funds trading. Now my, I don't know, cousin can trade, even though he or she knows nothing about Bitcoin or stocks.

A lot of those people actually made money for once. I'm curious your take on the aftermath of GameStop since you brought it up. I mean, obviously at the time, there were a lot of hot takes and thoughts and whether it was actually Reddit pumping the stock or whether there was a fund behind that, I don't know, but what do you think about the fallout and if there's going to be any like regulatory reaction to what happened? There won't be regulatory, there's, there won't

be a regulatory discipline to GameStop. There will be regulatory discipline that comes down on the hundreds of other GameStops that are going to happen. I can guarantee you there are at least a dozen more GameStops coming this year. What the biggest turning point, it was actually a pivotal moment. I know it got a lot of hype, but the hype was well-deserved because it was the first time literally in history, history of the capital markets, that the retail, the retail community had more power than the institutional community. Right. And that is an insane paradigm shift. So what ends up, what will end up happening is there's just going to be more of these. You just saw the, my favorite one so far this year was the, I think it was the bank of Japan.

The bank of Japan is kind of like the fed in the States, but some of a portion of their company trades on the public markets. The bank of Japan stock was pumping because of a Reddit group. That's insanity. That's literally the central bank of a country was pumping because of Reddit. So that's the aftermath. Right. But I know that there won't be a regulatory reaction against GameStop. But the question is, A, there were obviously hedge funds that were bad actors, right? I mean, Melvin Capital was basically bailed out by the sell button being turned off. But will there be a regulatory reaction

that hurts retail for doing exactly what hedge funds and banks have been doing since the beginning of time? Because a short squeeze is not new. What's new is that a bunch of dudes on Reddit did it. Yeah. I don't think it matters, actually. I don't think it matters actually i don't i yeah i don't think it matters i mean there will probably be some things that come down but like what it it just opens people's eyes to the fact that um shit who's the there's a clearinghouse that this this really wasn't

robin hood no right i mean robin hood literally would have been insolvent trying to fill the orders it was citadel or something or something. Yeah. What happened is, so there's a company called the DTCC. I bet nine out of 10 people in your audience doesn't know what the DTCC is because they shouldn't know what it is, but it's the depository trust clearing and something else, right? Every single time you trade a stock in the United States, it goes through the DTCC. And it ain't fast, right? So like, you want to talk about monopolies, like we're talking about like coming down on like Amazon. And that's not the monopoly. The monopoly is the monopoly that's happening in the financial markets with companies like the DTCC, where

literally every single stock that's traded in America goes through them. And when you buy a stock, when I buy 10 shares of Apple, those shares are held with the DTCC. So that's the system that's falling apart. The other one is the same clearing, like public.com, Webull, Robinhood, they all canceled GameStop. Robinhood was just the first, so they got shit on. But the problem there is not Robinhood. It's the clearinghouse behind Robinhood that I forget the name of the company. It starts with like an A. But that's the problem. And so I think what people will realize is like, you just moved to DeFi and you moved to Bitcoin and you move to crypto because it's a different infrastructure. You can put these sexy graphic designs on top of the traditional markets, but guess what? You're still building on top of ACH, which is a 50-year-old payment system. Yeah, it's absurd. But we have

seen that the OCC has at least written on crypto. They said that banks could custody, theoretically, cryptocurrencies, but more importantly, to your point there, that they can start testing stable coins as competitors to Swift and ACH. So do you think that crypto eventually gets incorporated to these systems and replaces them? Or do you think that we sort of run, continue to run parallel and competitive or both? No questions asked. Absolutely not. They will not adopt it. They will not. I have you ever seen the technology, the technology that goes into the ATM system in the United States is literally built on code from like the 1960s trying to get these companies to change their code base is like pulling a 10,000 pound truck,

like directly up a 90 degree Hill. It's not, it's not hard. It's impossible. Right. And so when you say they're like looking at crypto and things like that, I don't, I don't care about that. That cause it won't happen. What I get excited about is when, when Caitlin long gets her banking license in Wyoming and when Jesse at Kraken get their banking license because that's fundamentally a different infrastructure that's being built.

Coinbase will be the top five company in the entire world before we know it, right? Whether we like that or not, I know a lot of people don't like Coinbase, but they will be one of the most powerful companies in the entire world because they're built on crypto infrastructure, not on this legacy infrastructure. And they make money no matter what the price does, which is nice. Yeah, exchange business is a nice little business. Go down to $3,000?

Sure, why not? Why not? Yeah, I mean, I agree. And I think that regardless of your thoughts on Coinbase, it's definitely bullish for the space. And it's probably better to cheer them on if you want Bitcoin to continue to appreciate. I'm getting calls from my hedge fund friends

asking me about Coinbase. And, you know, we're doing work on this company. What do you think? Totally. And I have to agree with you that it's going to be huge I mean what we're doing is we're climbing

the wall of doubt right now and not my term I think Nick Carter said it first but you have things like tether, everyone's scared about tether and then that FUD gets dispelled You have things like Tether, right? Everyone's scared about Tether. And then that FUD gets dispelled.

And then you have things like GBTC and BlockFi. And I just interviewed Flory, the co-founder of BlockFi. That is just more FUD, I can assure you, after I was curious and questioned it. And it's just fear and uncertainty and doubt. And when these companies like Coinbase go public or eToro just announced like blank checks back $10 billion, now they're public companies, right? And if you are, what becomes interesting is if you're a large pension, a lot of these pensions and like sovereign wealth funds,

or not the sovereign wealth funds as much, but like the endowments, they can only buy public stock a lot of the time. Sure, they need ETF, right. Or like X percentage of their portfolio has to be allocated to public stocks. So now you're going to have endowments and pensions buying not just Bitcoin, but like buying equity in Coinbase and being incentivized to increase the value of Coinbase. That's pretty interesting. It is interesting. And it allows them a way, obviously, to have proxy exposure without dealing with custody and having to buy the underlying asset. I mean, a lot of people have viewed that to say that MicroStrategy is an ETF proxy, right? But all that said,

I think we see an ETF this year. I don't know what your opinion is on that, but I mean, we're over a trillion dollar market cap. I don't see how they can withstand the pressure for much longer. Yeah. I mean, there was never going to be an ETF until institutions started buying. Yeah, of course. Once they start holding it, they're in with the regulators. VanEck just has a new ETF proposal with the SEC. SEC has 45 days to respond once they receive an ETF proposal. We'll see. I don't know. They've been denied or the proposals have been withdrawn every time. Only three years. Yeah. Yeah. But this time, the difference is that, well, they're just, what, two or three Bitcoin ETFs approved by the Ontario regulators, right?

And they're crushing. And they're crushing. And so if you're a regulator in the States, why do you want to be left behind? Right? Kind of our thing now, but I don't know if you want to, but it is kind of our thing. Yeah. And I think then when you talk about endowments and pensions, I, to me, that's sort of like ETF is the final boss in that arena. Like I just don't see a huge pension fund or Penn's multi-billion dollar endowment plowing into Bitcoin on Coinbase. Maybe. I just don't see it.

But I think that they would buy an ETF. Maybe. I just don't see it, but I think that they would buy an ETF. Yeah. I tend to wholeheartedly agree. So if that happens this year, it's over. We're done. Billion dollar Bitcoin. Yeah. We can walk away. Yeah. We can walk away. And the podcast. No more podcasting. Well, so I'm curious though, with all this institutional involvement and that being the story here, does that leave behind the little guy who this was all intended for in the first place? I mean, we get so excited about institutional adoption, these big names and companies buying it. We get excited about that because it obviously increases the value of our

portfolio. But at the end of the day, like my passion for Bitcoin, when I really got into it was still about a way for your average person to like store wealth and protect themselves. And I think that that, do you think that that gets diminished at all as more big money and more regulation and control comes into the market? I don't think so. I think one thing is like Hal Finney, right? RIP, absolute legend. Hal Finney in one of his earliest Bitcoin notes, and for those who don't know, like Hal Finney was OG, as OG as you can get with Bitcoin. OG to like day one, yeah, of course. Yeah, like he's the first, yeah. So I would really recommend people go read about Hal Finney

if they haven't already. But like in his early Bitcoin talks in like the first month after Bitcoin was released out into the world, he talked about a world where the banks actually hold most of the Bitcoin. Right. But the difference is you have a way to opt out. That's the most important thing is that you have optionality to opt out of the system. Right. So now you're, you know, Bitcoin's a bearer asset. So like, yeah, eventually most of the Bitcoin will be held by the big banks and by Grayscale and people like this, that sucks, but does it suck? Like that, that's just the world we live in. Right. And I think it was kind of ignorant to think that like everybody was going to self custody all their own Bitcoin, you know and um i don't know i just think that bitcoin offers a the just the optionality to kind of opt out of the system is is the most important part of this whole thing there's that

and then there's the ability uh it's the first time in history there's never been an asset in history where retail has had so much opportunity to front run the institutions it's it's amazing you know even even at 250 000 we're still going to be front running the institutions because what happens is you i mean you know this well like when a large hedge fund says say there's an announcement tomorrow which actually there's going to be some huge announcements coming soon that like funds are raising a billion dollars just to buy bitcoin bitcoin only funds they can't go buy bitcoin right then it takes them like six months to allocate to get sign off once you raise a fund well then you have to go do all of this other work to go buy the Bitcoin. So yeah, we're a long way away.

Bitcoin, was it like in the 40,000s or something and Michael Saylor announced he was raising another billion dollar note. And I said something to the effect on Twitter. I was like, you're literally getting a public service announcement in advance by days of this happening and you're trying to short?

Like, I don't understand. How how can we bearish on an asset? And we know that a billion dollar purchase is going to move the price a few percent. Right. But like you, you, you get, you're getting announcements of exactly what's about to happen. It's incredible. It's like you said, there's never been anything like that in history. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty, I mean, I don't know. I've recently come to the realization that I will work in this industry for the rest of my life, which is a, I don't know. It's a cool realization to come to just knowing that like,

it's not really about the price and you know, this thing's going to continue going up. And I, you know, pretty sure I'm, I mean, I'm pretty young right now, but I think I'm going to spend my entire life working in the, this industry. And before we know it, you know, we're talking decades out, but like, it won't be the crypto industry in the same way that there's no internet industry. There used to be, there used to be literally an internet industry, like Google and Amazon late nineties. Now, now there, now there's just the internet, right? Right now there's a crypto industry before we know it, every company will be a crypto company in the same way that every company is an internet. Yeah. Yeah. Gotta have a website, whether you're an internet company or not. You talked earlier about the difference this time being an infrastructure.

Do you think that, and obviously, so, you know, that meant that, as you said, an institution couldn't come in in 2017 and buy a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin and put it on a ledger and hope for the best. And there was no institutional grade custody, obviously. So literally, we could talk about it, but it wasn't going to happen. Now, obviously, we have OTC desks and exchanges that have liquidity for that kind of price movement. Do you think that we have all the tools that we need now to scale the industry? Or do you think that there are still gaping or glaring holes in the infrastructure that we're going to see built over the next few years? Both. I would say yes. The infrastructure is built.

The infrastructure is there. In the same way that the infrastructure was there in 2008 to build Facebook, or 2004 and 2008 to build Instagram. What's the better analogy here? The infrastructure was there to build Instagram, but it wasn't there to build Snapchat. And the infrastructure that was required to build Snapchat was good enough for Snapchat, but it wasn't good enough for Oculus and virtual reality and AR, right?

And the infrastructure that is needed for Oculus was good enough for Oculus, but it is not good enough for self-driving cars right and so it's like there's no end there's no point at which we're like the infrastructure it's there it's complete right today fireblocks announced 133 million dollar raise last week blockfi announced what was a 350 million dollar raise that's ludicrous right so we have the infrastructure required to buy and sell these things but like all these platforms are going to break and they know it and they've admitted it and they said there's nothing we can do to handle coinbase can't stay online for an entire day it's 2021 yeah but i don't blame them actually is the difference like coinbase if you

talk to the engineers over there it's not like they don't know this they they just they it's so freaking hard to build these systems and you like brian armstrong uh talks about this when they they did a lot of modeling in like 2015 and 2016 to predict the 2017 bull run their numbers were off by a factor of 10, right? And they projected the most optimistic scenarios possible. That's going to happen again. This time around is this bull run is going to be, people think we're in the bull run. This is like the tiny first inning, second inning of this bull run right now. This is a super cycle that is going to drive so much demand, we can't even wrap our heads around it. Preston Pyshko I mean, it's really incredible to think of it, because I mean, in 2017, $60,000 Bitcoin was such an impossible dream. And now you just double it, and we're well into six figures.

Nick Neuman Yeah, it's insane. I mean, I don't know, I'm just happy looking at all the companies out there that have built through this bear market. And, you know, it's just cool to see all the people who stuck around. I don't know. I'm just happy looking at all the companies out there that have built through this bear market. And, you know, it's just cool to see all the people who stuck around. I don't know. It's just fun. How could you not love this? Right. How could you be bearish on this space right now? I can't. I definitely can't. So I know we're up against it with time. I'm just curious, what would you say or what do you say, because you're on the front lines of this, to someone who's still skeptical and looking to get into the space. Like what very basic advice or convincing can you do to tell them, hey, man, try it out.

I would just think about it. It's like Jeff Bezos says this thing. The way that he makes decisions in his life is when he has tough decisions is regret minimalization, right? And that's actually why I first bought Bitcoin is I said, would I rather put $100 into this thing and have it go to zero or put $100 in? Like, would I be more pissed if Bitcoin went from $100 to $0 than I would be if Bitcoin went from 100 to 1000. And I didn't know that. Yeah. Right. So like my suggestion is I think someone made this suggestion on your podcast the other day, which is you don't have to know what DeFi is. Just go

open a MetaMask wallet and start messing around with it. You don't have to know what Bitcoin is. Just go buy some Bitcoin and and play around. Understand what it is. Lose a little money. Have some fun. Because I think that would be my biggest suggestion is just have a little fun with it, right? Take a little bit of money that you can afford to lose, not even 1% of your portfolio, 0.1%. Throw 100 bucks into a Coinbase account and just play around. We have we have this article if you i think google the investors guide to bitcoin block works we i i personally built this guide that people share with non-bitcoiners that's like it's literally built to help non-bitcoiners understand this space it's every single piece is written by like an asset manager, institutional investor talking about why they're interested in the space. So first go buy

some Bitcoin, then start to understand it. And if you're still not convinced, just think through that regret minimalization. And that would be my recommendation. I love it. Hey, man, you can go to Vegas with 100 bucks and call it entertainment. Now you're going to lose it and get a few free drinks. What's your risk? Just view it as a view as an experiment and money that you don't mind lighting on fire. This life is too short to, uh, to be so focused on the money. Go have some fun and buy some Bitcoin. Absolutely, man. I love it. It's a great way to great way to finish. So, um, I really appreciate it. Where can everybody follow you, keep up with you and sign up for the newsletter and obviously keep up with what block works is

doing as well. Yeah, I'm boring, so you don't need to follow me. I'm on Twitter at Jason. He's not boring. But everyone should really go check out our newsletter. It's BlockWorks.co, BlockWorks.co forward slash newsletter. Subscribe to it and then reply to the newsletter. I get all the replies.

Reply to it. Say, hey, I heard you on replies, reply to it, say, Hey, I heard you on Scott. I really liked the newsletter. Hey, I heard you on Scott. I subscribed and I hate this thing and I'm going to reply to you and I want to learn from it. So yeah, I hope, and my DMS are open on Twitter. So yeah, get in touch. We'd love to hear from folks. Awesome. I try to steal as much of your content as humanly possible from our newsletter. So it's great. The years comes out at night. So I can do it in the morning. One in the same. Yeah. Love it, man. Well, thank you once again. I'm glad we finally got a chance to do it.

I think we've been talking about doing this for about a year. Yeah. Well, here we are. So yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Bye.