The Wolf Of All Streets - The Blockchain And Mortgage Revolution with Curtis Wood, CEO of Bee App

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

Curtis Wood spent years learning the ins and outs of both the mobile app and mortgage industries. When he learned about the blockchain, he knew he had to combine the three areas. He developed Mortgage Bee App, a seamless way to automate the loan process for home buyers, leveraging blockchain technology to add trust and remove human error. Scott Melker and Curtis Wood further discuss the current state of the housing market, the impact of COVID-19 on home value, historically low-interest rates, the difficulty in obtaining a loan, refinancing for free money, the 2008 subprime mortgage crisis, Dodd-Frank and Fannie Mae, strippers buying 7 homes, the impact of fraud and greed, the money machine in DC, tech as a double edge sword, borrowing against crypto and more. --- ROUNDLYX RoundlyX allows you to dollar-cost-average into crypto with our spare change "Roundup" investing tool, manage multiple crypto exchange accounts in one dashboard and access curated digital asset content and services. Visit RoundlyX and use promo code "WOLF" to learn more about accumulating your favorite digital assets when making everyday purchases and earn $4 in free Bitcoin. --- EQUOS Diginex is the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the US. That exchange, EQUOS, has been built to institutional standards, but is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum spot, as well as Bitcoin perpetuals, and get a 5% discount on all fees, by signing up using equos.com/wolf. --- CELSIUS With the Celsius app you can earn up to 15% APY rewards on over 30 cryptocurrencies. Have crypto but want cash? Celsius also offers the lowest cost loans against your crypto with interest rates starting at just 1% APR. Enter promo code WOLF when you sign up and get $20 in BTC! Users must transfer and hold at least $200 of any coin for 30 days to be eligible for the reward. --- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe.This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

I'd like to thank my sponsors, Celsius, Equus, and Round the X for making this episode possible. Stay tuned later in the episode for more info. What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. Today's guest is a friend of mine, and I can't wait to dive deep into his business, which has been making headlines on Forbes, Business Insider, Yahoo Finance, and more. Upon discovering blockchain technology and already having an edge in app development and the mortgage industry, Curtis stopped everything he was doing to mix the three together and found BeMortgageApp. Now I have the chance to better understand how

Curtis Wood and BeMortgageApp are disrupting a trillion dollar and massively flawed industry with blockchain technology. Curtis, it's a pleasure to talk to you again. Thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate you having me. So before we get into the questions, once again, you are listening to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, where twice a week I talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading, art, music, sports, politics, basically anyone who has a good story to tell. This show is powered by Blockworks Group, a media company with over 20 podcasts in their network. You can check them out at blockworksgroup.io. And if you like this podcast, follow me on Twitter. You should definitely check out my website and join my newsletter where I share all my trades,

charts, analysis, market thoughts, and lessons on improving your trading and investing. You can check those both out at thewolfofallstreets.io. And now to get onto it. So as I touched on, this is a massively flawed industry, the housing market in general and the mortgage industry. Can you tell us a bit about your current thoughts on the present market and the situation in the country right now? My present thoughts on the country? I'll go there. Your present thoughts on the housing market in this country. God, it's a hard time not to talk about the present situation in the country. It's a crap show.

The housing market. The housing market is supposed to be $3.4 trillion this year. So we're hitting premium capacity in terms of loan origination. There's a ton of refi with low rates. And this is coming from people who purchased maybe even 12 months ago. You're 12 months into a brand new home and rates drop and you're already ready to refi. So it's kind of crazy. Lenders, from the lenders I talked to personally, one of our investors is a senior VP with Wells Fargo. We have another partnership with Florida Capital Bank. Both of these shops are doing almost three times the volume, and this is all during COVID. So it's honestly crazy what's going on. In addition to the market

being 3.4 trillion, that's the end of your estimate right now. Young people, you know, Generation Mobile, millennials, they're the largest home buying group this year. 1.2 trillion is the estimate. So my opinion, yeah, it's real big. Um, you know, older millennials are already refinancing or moving on to their second home. And, um, for the newer ones coming into the housing market, you know, their parents remember rates, you know, 10 to 15% when that, when they bought their first house, you know, in the 80s, and they're coming in and getting a 30-year fixed for like 2.75%. Yeah, it's really crazy. I mean, when we were kids, yes, the rates were that high,

but you could also put your money in a bank and get like 10% interest so they get a savings account, which is a conversation for another day. But that's really interesting that millennials are buying homes. I mean, I can say that I'm not a millennial, but for one, I mean, the minute that things went down with COVID, I refinanced, you know, slightly higher than where the rates are. And I've only been in my house for three years, but it's like free money, right? It's free money. So you can't blame people. But doesn't that create yet another a bit of, well, a lack of supply first, right? You have all these people trying to take money, but there's nothing to really buy. Yeah, there's only so much mortgages in America. And whenever these rates drop, you know, it somewhat has a ripple effect through the secondary market.

But if rates are dropping and people are refinancing, then there's going to be a market there for it. And the mortgage market is a hole. It's cyclical. It goes through periods of purchase, a ton of purchase volume, then a ton of refinance volume. You notice rates kind of fluctuate. But rates are projected to be this low for like the next two years. Years. Which is crazy because typically in the past, we would see rates drop for this low for a few months, and then they'd go right back up.

But the money machine in Washington, D in Washington DC is printing and printing and printing. And they're going to keep the rates low to keep asset price that's high. And it's going to benefit homeowners that are just now getting into the marketplace. But interestingly, the idea of money printing, people think of these huge printers literally printing money. But this is actually the way they print money, correct? They make money available for loaning and then the banks go loan and there has to be a demand for loans from the public. Yeah. And when the demand goes down, we'll see rates start to go back up. The lenders are loving it. We bootstrapped for almost two years. We had a successful pre-seed raise, so we didn't bootstrap, you know,

once we got that capital infusion. But I talk to people right now, loan officers, they're doing like $50,000 and $60,000 a month in commission. And it's rarely been that way for a sustained period of time. You know, it would get that way for maybe three to four months and then rates would go back up. You know, but right now, just people are killing it. And it's the Wild West.

I mean, it's the Wild West. When I was doing mine and giving, it was like, I jumped in right when it hit, you know what I mean? And I saw it sub 3% and it was crazy, but they couldn't even lock me in any day. They would call me. And if I didn't get back to them in 20 minutes, the rates had changed and they had to like go back to the lender to figure out if there was even a deal.

It was, I mean, and they weren't even answering people's calls anymore. There was so much demand. I've never remember it being like that, even in the previous crash. Yeah. So when rates move that quickly, that's, like you said, it's uncharted territory. It's kind of the wild, wild west. We used to have rate changes once a day. And just every once in a while, you'd get a midday change.

You know, like maybe when Brexit happened, there was a major shift, just something big. But like you said, now, you know, lenders are, you can see rate fluctuate three, four times a day. It's like you said, not lock you in just because rates are going to change. Yeah, it was nuts. Fun, but nuts. So talk about your background a little bit. What got you interested in doing this? And then we'll get more specifically into how you're disrupting the industry. Yeah. So I went to work for PHH Mortgage, which did white label originations at the time. They got acquired by Aquin.

But at the time, we did white label originations for Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, just all of the prestigious names on Wall Street, KeyBank, Apple Bank, PHH would originate for. So I say that because at PHH, they had super strict and compliant internal controls because they had to manage these contracts with Mer with Marilyn Goldman. So, you know, my first job into the mortgage industry, they taught us how to take a clean and compliant 1003, which is the loan application. And that's the foundation for all kind of mortgage success after that. And being in the leadership position, I mean, now where I'm looking at the big picture, yeah, you know, the number one cause of file defects, cures, buybacks for a lender come from errors that humans make in the 1003. And, you know, there's been a

lot of technology that supposedly has come in to fix that, but still human errors, the number one cause of risk for lenders. So, PHH was my first job. Before that, I was at iMobile 3. They did white label mobile app development. They built Moe's Southwest Grill, Great American Cookie, the contractor app with Home Depot. And so, I did that and then I got into mortgages and I was on the front lines just writing loans and I enjoyed it. I really did. I'm a mortgage guy at heart and I'm not a banking guy and I'm not a guy who has letters after my name in terms of an MBA and all these degrees. Me either. Super intelligent guys. So I got the skill of being able to explain how a mortgage works in non-banking language. So, you know, my, I call my one superhero is that I'm in mortgage lending, but I can explain the way the mortgage process works to somebody who isn't.

You know, my two 14-year-olds, you know, for example, if I can make them understand how a mortgage works, you know, we're pretty confident that the process, you know, is simplified enough or whatever. through PHH. They were, B of A did not renew the origination contract with PHH. They had previously purchased Countrywide. So they took some of their loan origination in-house at B of A and Merrill. So we all saw the writing on the wall. And from PHH, I went over to EverBank. And this was right before they got acquired by TIAA. So it was at EverBank where, again, I was a loan officer on the front lines and just dealt with all the pain points. I had a woman, I did a loan for a woman who used to sit on the board of the Federal Reserve.

Wow. used to sit on the board of the Federal Reserve, you know, and TIAA is a huge financial institution for academics, you know, teachers and all that. And I'm sure you know the background of them. But she gets denied. And this was not an agency loan. So it wasn't going to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. But she gets denied because an interpretation of her assets was deemed as being non-liquid. And she wanted to waive escrows. She wanted to pay them on her own. So we had to establish some liquid assets for her. Big house, you know, big money. So I have to relay the news to her that she is denied. And she was not happy. First, she cried. And then she got mad. And then she called the CEO of Everbank. And about two hours later, I got an email saying that her file was approved.

Hey, that's how you get it done. For her. Yeah. But that seems like such a common problem, right? I mean, I can tell you from my own personal experience, I was DJing. I didn't have a W2. I was an independent contractor. My money was paid in 1099s from all over the country. My income never counted towards anything, but I could never get a loan for decades. Yeah. No matter how much money I made, it was almost irrelevant. Or it was that and the combination that it was paid to a business account and not to my personal account. And that didn't count towards collateral.

Then you got to produce K1s. Yeah. So nightmare. Yeah. As much as we're doing with automation and, you know, some other of my competitors in the space are doing with automation. Nobody has cracked the self-employed borrower nut yet. And there's a company called Softworks. And they have an AI platform that we're actually going to be leveraging unless my MIT developers come up with something better. But it can do

everything except read a purchase agreement and like 1040s and K1s. They can't get the technology to do that. And whoever does at some point is going to come up with a very successful software program. That makes sense. And then good luck convincing them that crypto is an asset that should be counted as part of your income or your holdings, because I tried that recently and got literally laughed out. Yeah. You can convert it and then we'll count it, but no. All right. So let's get into what you guys are specifically doing, because obviously anyone who's applied for a loan of any sort, much less a mortgage, has probably had a frustrating

experience up until this point, right? So you guys are solving quite a bit of that. Yeah. And it's still frustrating. We're solving as much as we can, but nobody's going to be able to solve the whole thing. First of all, we're solving as much as we can, you know, but nobody's going to be able to solve the whole thing. You know, uh, first of all, we can't touch a self-employed borrower. Um, we're only touching the W-2 borrower. Now, thankfully for us as a whole, you know, typically a loan officer's pipeline will have anywhere from 70 to 80% of a W-2 borrower. So a majority of the pipeline is what we're trying to automate, which is good. Our belief being if we can automate 70%, we're going to be able to triple the loan officer's production

on the other stuff that requires his attention, like K-1s, you know, 1040s, two years, tax returns, that sort of thing. So that's the idea behind us being able to get our acquisition costs down to where we're projecting it'll get down to. But when I was at Everbank, I did just dealt with everybody who had a complaint. I was the guy they talked to, it was a loan officer, you deal with the good and the bad. And probably two or three times a week, somebody would ask me, I'd like to apply for a mortgage, whether it be a purchase or refinance, but I don't want to do it with you. Do you have an app or do you have a website I can go to? And back then they do have a website,

you can apply online now, but back then, they didn't. I mean, this is a Fortune 100 company. So, you know, that's kind of what sparked the idea of a mortgage app. You know, people are asking me for it. You know, Robinhood's around, you know, just there's apps everywhere. So, Rocket Mortgage came out around this time. Everybody in the lending industry kind of held their breath to see if it was going to be a real mobile mortgage, how much would it handle? And it didn't turn out to be a mobile mortgage. It's only a mobile loan

application. You apply in Rocket Mortgage and then after that, you've got to talk to a loan officer. You go through the same old crappy process so it basically eliminates the front end friction but once you've filled out your application you're back into the same old system it's a lead generation app for rocket and it's slick i mean they've they've got the capital in the ad campaign to roll it out because if you ask anybody when i go pitch2 an investor, the first question they ask me is, how is this different than Rocket Mortgage? Because they think Rocket Mortgage is a mobile app, and I've got to explain to them that it's not.

But I'm on the front lines of EverBank. I get asked if we have a mobile app. Rocket comes out. It's not a mobile mortgage app. And then Bitcoin hits 20 grand. I think this is December of 17. Yeah. Okay. So everybody's talking blockchain. It's a big buzzword. So I do some research and I come across a paper by PricewaterhouseCoopers. And it talks about the benefits of blockchain for the mortgage

industry. And being on the front lines and experiencing all the pain points, they nailed it. I mean, that was my light bulb moment. They nailed it. And what it is, I'm not a software engineer, but I understand that it is a trusted validation protocol. So you take, for example, when I take a loan application for W-2, you know, forget self-employed borrower. When I take a loan application, I'm going to verify electronically your credit, your income, and your assets. These are pulled from the source. We verify them directly from your bank account. Okay. Is that through an API?

Does it pull through? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. And in compass and the loan origination software, I'm just, you know, hitting an access button, API pulls the data in. So we take your, I get three credit scores for you. We have to use your median credit score. I get your assets from your checking or your savings account. Say it's the total a hundred thousand dollars. And then I get your W-2 income, which is verified through work number, through Equifax. It's a service through Equifax. And I get your income 150 grand.

Those are the three qualifiers for credit approval. Okay. Until you have a home under contract, I can't do anything else with you. All I have to do is verify your credit, your income, and your assets. Now, those data points, I also must accept as is. So, in other words, if your credit is 619, I can't go talk to my boss and say, can we get an exception for this? Because Fannie Mae will only take files that are 620 or higher. Right. So every time I'm doing this as a loan officer, and it's repetitive and it's mundane, and I have no idea why I'm doing this, that specific function of validating data that has to be accepted as is,

the lender cannot change it. That can be done through a smart contract. And there's no reason why it shouldn't because it doesn't require me to, from a human analytical standpoint, do anything. It's just a yes or a no. You either have enough assets to meet the LTV, you either make enough money to pass DTI and your credit is either high enough or it's not. And then you just, I would clear the milestone. I'd wait for you to get the contract in, get a homeowner contract, and then I'm doing more work. So that is what, that was my light bulb moment there is that we could automate that credit approval process right up front.

And that's what we're building. And anyone who's been through that knows how frustrating it is to gather all of that paperwork and then you go back and forth. And when we were doing that refinance, they needed a new bank statement literally every day because of what I was describing, how much it was changing and fast. How much money do you have today that you didn't have? I mean, it's insane. So providing all that documentation has to be a huge, huge point of friction for getting people approved. So what happens, right? You go into the app, you basically originate your loan,

say how much you want, go through this process of getting all these documents verified, then what happens? So the reason we don't have a mobile mortgage is because the technology has not been built for a consumer to interface with their phone the entire time through the entire mortgage process. Instead, it is relying loan origination software is built for a loan officer to sit at the controls with a mouse and a keyboard and a setup and manage all the data. Okay. So, again, what we're doing is we're simply automating the credit approval process. But there is a ton of engineering behind that to make that automation possible. So number one is we're building an entire mortgage experience in a

mobile app. From the question and answers, which, excuse me, which simply model the same questions you would get with a loan officer. You know, some of these other products like Blend, Mortgage Hippo, some of these other point of sales, banks have a fault and they want to just dump information on the borrower. They want to just give you the form, the 1003. Now, they give it to you in a digital format, but they, you know, and you're looking at it and you see all the fields that you have to complete, and it's overwhelming. The easiest part of calling Wells Fargo is whenever I'm talking to you as a loan officer, I'm just going to ask you some simple questions. And they're just yes or no. You got a job. You have two years tax returns. You know, do you have a home under contract, you're looking for a single family home, or you're looking for

a 30-year fix. And, you know, similar to TurboTax, where it has a very simple, easy to use interface, you just sit there and answer some questions. And then TurboTax logic and software kind of populates into the form fields. So that's what we're building. You know, number one is the actual mortgage experience, all of it, not just applying, but even after you apply, you know, inputting, uploading the purchase agreement, you know, selecting the closing date, your earnest money deposit, just all of that stuff. And we're starting with a complete mobile mortgage experience. And then our guys who are much smarter than I'll ever be are figuring out the automation steps and how to hook it up.

It's so interesting. So how many people are going to be out of work when you guys take over the world? Listen, I mean, that's the nature of technology, right? I mean, all of these things are meant to save time and money, which effectively eventually eliminates jobs. Tech is a double-edged sword. It is. And for home buyers, it'll make homeownership more affordable. For loan officers and processors, we're thinking that one loan officer will be able to triple their loan production. So this is busy work. This is busy work. You're eliminating the busy work. And as much as you may eliminate some loan officers, the ones who are there are going to be pretty psyched not to have this headache, right? Yeah.

It's the worst part of the process. Yeah. You know, most of your pipeline are people with good credit income and assets. They're great. This is everyday people. They pay their bills on time. They hard, their hard work, you know, all of that good stuff. You rarely talk to those people. They

sail right through because there's no issues. Okay. That's what we're trying to automate is the people who, number one, they don't want to talk to anybody. They don't want to deal with a loan officer. You know, they want a mobile experience. But number two, automation can help them because as a loan officer, I don't have to touch them. They qualify. They sail right through. Now, again, and we're talking about all this good stuff we can't do or we can do. Let me tell you what we can't do. Yeah. I was literally going to ask like, is there a point where I go on my phone and three hours later, I have a mortgage? Well, so Figure has a fantastic HELOC. And they're absolutely going to lead the market with that HELOC. And they're using blockchain. I don't know the exact application, but they can get you a

HELOC in three or four days. For anyone listening, that's a home equity line of credit. If you're not in on the lingo. I know that because I also did that recently. So that's Mike Cagney's company. And I don't know exactly how they're using blockchain. I think they're using it more to process the data on the back end and maybe for the investors. But to answer your question,

can you get a mortgage in like three to four days? No, but you can get a HELOC and you can get it through them. The reason you wouldn't be able to get a mortgage in three to four days is because of Dodd-Frank. Now, I can verify your income. I can make sure you're qualified using Fannie Mae day one certainty in 15 minutes. Fannie Mae will accept that credit, that income, that asset verification. But I've got to send you out a loan estimate in three days. Then I've got to wait another, I think, 14 days. Then I've got to send you another initial closing disclosure. And then I've got to wait another, I think, 14 days. Then I've got to send you another initial closing disclosure.

And then I've got to wait three more days. Still sounds like a much less of a headache than most people have with the process. So obviously, all the law would have to change for it to be able to do that. And so you're basically ready to innovate as the law allows. Yeah. And there's a big push to rescind a lot of Dodd-Frank. And I am a huge free markets guy. But I remember what the industry was like when subprime origination was at 20 and 25%. And how you had all these ninja loans and everybody was lying. There was fraud everywhere.

And of course, nobody could qualify for them because they didn't think they were going to have to pay for it in six months. They were going to flip it for a profit. Everything was going up, you know, so everybody was fine. What Dodd-Frank did, and it did a lot of good, it did a lot of bad for the customer experience, but the primary benefit it brought to the marketplace was it reduced subprime origination to almost nothing. Now, that's not to say fraud is eliminated. There is fraud, I'm sure, somewhere. Somebody's cutting a corner to make a buck.

You know, that's going to happen. But Dodd-Frank stiffened the penalties for mortgage fraud, 30 years in prison, a million-dollar fine. They instituted stricter licensing procedures. Oh, my goodness. Getting a mortgage license is a huge pain. I'm lucky I passed all mine. Serious, I barely made it out of middle school. And I studied my butt off, and I got lucky.

I passed them all. There was three people in our PHH class of like 30 loan officers. These are smart guys. And I'm not kidding. I'm a C minus student. And there was only three people in that class that passed all their exams. They're incredibly difficult. But the other thing it did was that it flooded the mortgage process with paperwork. And just for example, like we used to send out a GFE, a good faith estimate at the beginning. Well, they replaced that with what's called a loan estimate.

It's basically the same information formatted differently. And it is a good document. It's easy to read. I like it. But the problem happens is that whenever a mortgage file is going through mortgage processing, the numbers change just frequently. Dodd-Frank mandates that almost every time your mortgage numbers change, I have to send you a new loan estimate. Start again. Yeah. You get like three or four throughout the process. You don't even have to sign them. You don't have to view it. You have

to view the first one, but the rest of them, you don't have to view, but they all say, please sign date of return. So it's absolutely confusion. So one of the benefits that a mobile app gives us is that we'll still be able to disclose documents to you, but I'm not going to send you an alert unless it's a document that you have to view and sign. So you'll get a little alert and the rest of the documents will be in your B mortgage app, but you're not going to know they're there. You're only going to get that little, you know, red number one next to the ones that you do. That makes a lot of sense. So,

Dodd-Frank was the response to the 2007-2008 subprime mortgage crisis. Can you talk about, you just said, and this, I think, touched on something probably so interesting. You remember the Wild West. You remember when it was absolutely insane in those years, what were people doing? Where was the fraud? How did this bubble happen? So, um, I mean, we've all seen the big short, and we know that like strippers in Miami were buying seven houses with cash, you know, and getting loans with no, uh, you know, we've seen the movie, but first of all, I want to be very clear. I was not in the mortgage industry back then,

but one of my best friends was, and he worked at AmeriQuest. I'm not going to say his name. Just there was fraud everywhere. It was greed. That's it. And the overwhelming belief that housing prices will never fall. They always go up. Historically, they've never fallen. It was actually true until then. It was true until then. Yeah. So what you would have, and this is in maybe like 2002, you started to see a big growth in subprime origination. So you would go in to like AmeriQuest, who's out of business now, Countrywide, who's practically, they're gone, B of A absorbed them.

You tell them you want to buy a house. First of all, internally, there was no loan origination system that as a requirement to produce a 3.2 file for Fannie Mae, that there wasn't an actual asset or income or credit verification module that was there. Now there is. I can't get around it. That TriMerge credit poll goes straight into Encompass and that credit score populates. So it is what it is. Back then, they were taking, like if I pulled your credit and it's 480, they would have another credit report right here on their desk. I would put Scott Milker's name on it and your address and your social and just upload it into the loan origination software.

God, I've worked so hard to have good credit. I could have just stolen the document. The craziest thing, at AmeriQuest, they had an appraisal software that would print an appraisal at whatever value you wanted it to be at. Roundthex.com is one of my favorite companies in the entire crypto space. What they do is take all your small purchases and round them up to the nearest dollar and invest that spare change into any of over 30 crypto assets of your choice. They integrate with your favorite exchanges so that you can view various exchange balances

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So basically it was like, this wasn't just like people taking advantage of a system. It was outright fraud. Like fully just upload a fake document, get the person approved, get them however much money they need. But then what? So you give that bad mortgage, that subprime mortgage, but the real collapse comes when they start packaging, repackaging, reselling, reselling, third time, fourth time, fifth time, right? Yeah. And I don't want to put this all on the bank because there was fraud at every level of, you know, the mortgage chain. Because number one, let's say that I as a customer, I go in and I apply for a loan. I don't know where to lie. I don't know where to cheat.

OK, so if I don't make enough money, the loan officer says, hey, I can't qualify you for this loan with Fannie Mae. But there's another one over here where you get to state your income and your assets. So they tell you to lie. They tell you to lie. No, you have to agree to it. And it's your fault if you lie. But I mean, you know, the fraud was everywhere and it was driven by greed. And the trusted person is telling you to the person you trust who you went to just says, write this number on the line.

You're not thinking that you've just committed like fraud that's going to put you in jail oh no no and they never disclosed it to you like that you know but yeah that's that's exactly what it was and so you had wall street agreed on wall street they just wanted to eat these loans up because they were making a ton of money this is is, if you've ever seen, well, the big short, I know you've seen that, Marching Call. Marching Call is another really good movie. You know, you had all these adjustable rates, and there was the initial period where they don't adjust, and they would put you in an arm because the loan officer makes more money,

you know, selling it as opposed to a 30-year fixed. A balloon payment, you know, points. There was something else Dodd-Frank got rid of. If I'm a loan officer, I used to be able to get a commission based on how many points I charged you. That's no more. Not allowed to force that. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you got all of these crap loans, adjustable rate mortgages with unverified income and assets and straight up fraudulent appraisals, home values and credit reports that they, like you said, they started packaging up. They couldn't sell them by themselves. So they started packaging up. They take them over to Moody's and the woman's got the, you know, the glasses on, like she's had her eyes dilated. She can't see anything and she's

stamping approved in AAA. And eventually what happened is just like that guy caught, you know, when these rates start to adjust, people aren't going to be able to pay their mortgages. And they didn't anticipate they'd have to because they were planning on flipping them in six months because values are just straight up. Works till it doesn't and then the house of cards falls. But why is Wall Street interested in buying a package of crap loans? They didn't know they were crap. I mean,

there were very few analysts who picked through. Or did they just think they could flip them next? Well, yeah. I mean, you saw it. I mean, to reference the big short, it was like he was the only guy who noticed. Yeah. There was,

I think there was three or four people in the world who, who realized what was going on. Certainly Greenspan didn't. He's on Capitol Hill talking about how the housing market's ever, you know. That's a complete side story. But yeah, they didn't know they were crap. They didn't mean they were buying them and if first of all you know you you've got like the brokers you have layman they're buying them in bulk they're keeping them on their you know their books for like 60 to 90 days while they layer them up package them up and then sell them it was like getting caught with the hot potato you know yeah i mean the music

stops literally flipping it literally flipping it it's like chopping up a car and selling the parts and then selling those parts i mean it's and there's there's one thing though people say nobody went to jail no banking executives went to jail but there are some guys in california mortgage guys who went to prison for fraud yeah a couple guys couple guys probably not the guys that everybody wanted to see i'm sure they were criminals don't get me wrong this is all these people were perpetuating known fraud they should all be in jail but like yeah never seems to uh the punishment never seems to fall at the top of the food chain i guess angelo mezzo the first orange man. You remember him? He had a real bad tan.

Yeah, he's skated away with a couple hundred million dollars from the countrywide sale to B2A. Yeah, take your small fine and keep your bounty. Slap on the wrist. It's pretty crazy. So now we have, it's funny, when COVID hit, I assumed we were going to see a housing crash. I mean, it seemed common sense that like nobody's moving, nobody's going to buy anything. The economy's crashing. People are broke. Like any, a $1,200 stimulus check isn't

enough to get you through buying a house, right? For nine months. What the hell, man? House prices are higher than ever. I mean, I was dead wrong, obviously. It may prove, it may come to be, but what the hell? So there's two factors, low inventory, and there's a lot of buying demand. Because of the loans. Yeah.

Because it's so cheap. That's helping refinance demand. And the investor doesn't care. I mean, if it's a refinance or a purchase, they care about the loan terms and the credit, all that. But they don't care if somebody bought a year ago and just refinanced, they'll buy that new loan. So inventory, I personally think,

and there's no evidence for this, but we had a ton of inventory back from like 2004 to 2007. Tons. I think builders learned their lesson. Because inventory, they have been able to keep inventory extremely low. And you have this new home buying demand, which is coming in the marketplace. So does that mean that they're just like not building 100 model homes and hoping they get filled? They're building on demand or their one parade of homes, house for the season, and that's it.

They're not throwing out a couple million dollars in houses, assuming that there's going to be a buyer. They learned their lesson. They really did. So, I mean, in terms of COVID having an impact on prices and everything, I thought we were going to have a major crash. Some of my partners thought it was going to be worse than 08. I did.

It would put 08 to shame, you know. And a lot of people I know, you know, from an investment standpoint, they were increasing their cash position, their weight on the sidelines, weight in the pounds. And we did. I mean, it did drop down, but... Most people didn't buy it there. Yeah. There was nothing in terms of a housing crisis like we saw in 08. And in their own defense, HUD came out with some very good programs,

forbearance programs. Now, the question is what happens when they expire? Those are going to expire. I don't know what happens when they expire. I mean, all the rent, that's all expiring, right? People are going to start being evicted and massed. See, that's all the stuff that I thought would happen, and they helped, but eventually they're going to stop helping.

I think if we continue, my personal belief, if the economy, and we're in Florida, so it's a different world than some other places under COVID. Different world than every place all the time. You got that right. Cynthia and I, you get on CNN or Fox, it doesn't matter. And there's always that random story about Florida. God, it hurts every time.

I don't know if you know this, but the total aside, the reason that is, and I actually talked to Catherine Coley about this on my first podcast ever, Florida has very loose, has very actually, like, they divulge all freedom of press, like they divulge everything, like arrest records, all those things immediately, which most states don't do. So in Florida, any reporter or any person, the public can see every arrest in real time and what had happened. So all this crazy stuff is happening in every other state. It's just public knowledge here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Freedom of information. My brain was the Freedom of Information Act here allows for anyone to access those records, which are private in other places. I didn't know that. Yeah, nobody knows it. And we like come off as jackasses, but it's actually a very progressive. It's actually a very progressive. And like, if you're into, you know, freedom of speech and freedom of information, Florida is actually very far ahead. But it gives us this terrible stigma because everybody sees every ridiculous thing that happens in real time. The only thing I hope for whenever I see one of those crazy articles, like man gets caught having sex with an alligator or something. Yeah, in a swamp and three minivans.

Yeah, I'm opening it up and I'm like, please, God, don't let it be Jacksonville. Usually they get them further south these days. It seems like. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. It's South Florida or somewhere over in the panhandle where like, there's a bunch of, we're in a, we're in a bubble of where it's not too bad, hopefully, but yeah, it's crazy. So yeah, I'm sorry to, sorry to interrupt there. Don't worry. Yeah, so, but we didn't see that crash like we were talking about before. And, you know, there has been the foreparents.

But do you still think that that's potentially on the horizon? Or do you think that we're kind of smooth sailing now? I think there's a possibility for it. You know, going through that and then COVID, a global pandemic, you never say never again, you know. About anything. Anything. I actually insert, call me crazy, but we just went through 2020

and so I inserted a disclosure in our current fundraising round talking about any threat, including alien. Force majeure, man, you know. We launch

our pre-seed round and a global pandemic hits. You know, I can't sit down. I'm kind of scared to launch this next round. So what was it like? What was it like trying to launch a business when that happened? I mean, I was, I, you know, we were, we were in touch. So like, yeah.

Talk about bad timing and bad luck. I mean, it's worked out for you, but at the time it was a pretty, a pretty rocky road. Yeah. Talk about bad timing and bad luck. I mean, it's worked out for you, but at the time it was a pretty rocky road. Yeah, so we bootstrapped for a while. We joined a lot of VCs alternate or alt portfolios, which is basically everybody they said no to. I think it was 15, 16. The crazy thing is I actually, a lot of these VCs would engage just random, out of the blue. I'd send them over our deck and we were very early on the concept

phase, you know. And Cynthia and I, you know, we didn't have the capital to pour hundreds of thousands of dollars into, you know, development. So that was totally out of the picture. So anyways, we'd, uh, we heard a lot of no's. We went to, I heard a yes from Fundopolis, which is a crowdfunding portal. It was a new portal. So they were pretty much taken on anybody. Um, you know, we're, Hey, you're going to dance with the partner. You're fine. So, you know, so we launched it dance with the partner you're you're fine so yeah so we launch it right before christmas of last year and and we're like and we hit like 10 000 you know and

it's the christmas season we're waiting on christmas to be over in the new year and then we hear this thing about a chinese virus and that's how it was referenced just early on. There was a virus over there. Something was happening in China. Yeah. So, Cynthia and I actually flew in March. And the week that we got back, everything shut down. But we had just picked up, I think we broke 100,000 in March. And we were just getting some momentum and then the world shut down. So, we kind of hustled through it, you know, did what we could. I still met with some younger investors who just flat out said, I don't care. You know, I'm not quarantining. And so I met with some of them.

I did zoom calls with some older guys. But very early on, we realized we weren't going to hit our max goal, which was 500,000. Well, people were terrified to spend money. Then everybody thought that like they were going to be completely broke, right? That everything was going to collapse and it was over. So it's, that's like discretionary discretionary spending sort of. Yeah. And there was, if you looked in the marketplace,

there was other much lower risk, you know, investment opportunities on sale, you know, so I'm, I'm out here. Oh yeah. I think it hit three, 4,000. Bitcoin was on sale. Yeah. Yeah. My favorite quote is from Mark Hughes. He said, stocks are the only thing that when they go on sale, everybody runs out of the store. It's the same thing with crypto and everything. They've called the death of Bitcoin. I don't know how many times now.

And it just seems to be alive. I loved your interview with Mark. Michael Saylor. Mike. Yeah. Sorry. I had Mark Dusko, who you just mentioned, and that was like my other favorite interview probably of all time. Mike Saylor, he said something that resonated with me. He said, this is how I can do good, you know, is basically buying Bitcoin. We have meager resources compared to the guy who owns 9,000 Bitcoin, you know, or whatever he said. Yeah. But Brock Pierce said, you know, the greatest disruption is going to come from people that disrupt themselves. And that was me as a mortgage guy. You know, there's no

doubt that the mortgage industry is in bad need of automation. The reason it's not automated is because lenders don't trust a computer program to do a human's job. But blockchain's different. You can trust that validation protocol, you know? But you also flat out said that the reason these things get messed up is human error. So that's a misconception, right? Even like people, you trust your guy, but your guy is much more likely to make a mistake. Well, it's not just your loan officer. I mean, the processor touched the

file, the closing coordinator, the underwriter. Too many people. Yeah. There really is too many people, but that's the way it is. You know, you not only have Dodd-Frank, but there's, you know, Florida laws that we have to abide by. There's county law. So, and I mean, title fraud is a big one. Just somebody inserting their own, you know, wiring instructions into the process and they get a phishing email. One of our investors and advisors, a guy named Andy Zinkel,

he knows you and- Yeah, in New York. Yeah, yeah. Andy used to, like, dude, we used to do DJj and club stuff together he like that's amazing yeah so andy has been one of our uh earliest cheerleaders uh i knew that yeah for the longest time but he stopped and in fact there was a forbes article about it or a wall street journal article he stopped like a title fraud and he does big commercial title work.

Right. And he, his instinct stopped like a huge, uh, fraudulent transaction. So, uh, the,

the human element, you know, again, it's everywhere, you know, and it does create the greatest amount of risk for lenders but what we're trying to automate is doesn't even require any human oversight these are the mundane tasks you know and all that stuff um we got off subject sorry no it's awesome are there any other

areas of this process that you think theoretically, I mean, maybe if some regulation changes or some rules where blockchain could really, really make a difference? Yeah. So right now we have a title agent who will initiate a wire. And this is funding. I mean, this is the girl or the guy at their computer. They put the wiring instructions in there and send it off. You know, as soon as Duval County tax collector and the state of Florida agree to be paid in either a Fed crypto dollar or digital dollar or Bitcoin. Yeah. A smart contract. Why not a stable coin even, because then there's no volatility. Right. Yeah. But a smart contract could facilitate closing instead of a human actually initiating the wire and all that. So you could have an auto execute.

And this is a ways off. Dodd-Frank is going to have to agree to it. I mean, this is a long ways off. You know, the county, whoever is accepting the money is going to have to agree to accept it in a different denomination than, you know, a dollar or maybe a dollar, like you said. But yeah, we're going to see a lot of advances towards it. And there's a big push within the industry right now to scale back Dodd-Frank. And I don't know if I agree with that, but that's what the banks are pushing for. Yeah. I guess what you just described is the most obvious application, like actually use a better currency that transacts faster and requires less human intervention. I mean, that is the use case for cryptocurrency, right? I mean, at its core, forget blockchain,

but like, that's why we're here. Yeah. Absolutely. And then you would eliminate the fraud and also just the chances of one of those people in the middle making some sort of epic error. I mean, how stressful is it sending a wire? So much worse than just sending like USDC to someone. I mean, if that wire goes to the wrong place and it's big enough, if you're the title guy, it can put you under. You know, your insurance and it can put you under. So there's, there's absolutely a use case for a smart contract in that regard. You know, and it could plug into property, you know, what property is doing,

but property is more on the registry side, you know, a title agent, their entire function is to clear title and then facilitate closing. Right. You know, a title agent, their entire function is to clear title and then facilitate closing. Right. You know, and then they can plug that information into property if the county is using property, you know, as a blockchain register or something like that. It's just funny that we need an escrow agent. We still need a trusted party to hold the funds and make sure that they're distributed. And that's something we don't need a person for. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Clearing title is, is still requires a human element involved. Um, and for the same reason, I mean, if you're the title guy and for however it happens, uh, a faulty title, you know, it's got a lien order, whatever, if it ends up in the transaction, you know, you're liable for that. You hope the homeowner has, you know, title insurance, always get title insurance if anybody is out there listening and thinking about buying a house. What a crazy world. So now you've been a couple of years deep in this, right? You've obviously found this great application for blockchain that's going to reduce a ton of friction. So I would imagine that in your travels and your thinking and brainstorming, you've come up with some other awesome ideas for where blockchain can be used.

Right. Like once you have that light bulb moment, I would feel like you would see all these applications. Are there other areas? I don't want you to give away anything proprietary or let anybody steal your idea. But like now that you're thinking about it, where else can blockchain really disrupt or help? Well, as soon as I read that Pricewaterhouse article, I realized I as a loan officer am not needed. I'm just not needed. You know, anybody can create an automation architecture, just structure. Okay. But the problem is that there was no trusted validation protocol for the data to go from this point to that point. You know, we can move data pretty easily, but do we trust that it's the right data so that you stick a smart contract in there? And

yes, we can trust it. So if I'm not needed as a loan officer, then that's the technology to power a mobile mortgage. Because again, if you think about Rocket, you apply on Rocket Mortgage, and then you talk to a loan officer. You know, you talk to a processor. So more of those mundane, repetitive tasks to answer your question, where is it going? Do we have more ideas? It's simply to transfer more of the repetitive tasks that, number one, don't require a human element. Like, there's no gray area. You know, it's either a one or a zero. You know, I can't change the data. And there's many points in the origination process that we could take that and put that into a smart contract

instead of having, you know, a manual decisioning and dependency and, you know, which really just tie everything up. The more we can do that, the more of that type of automation, the lower my cost is going to come down to originate a loan. I get to pass that savings along to everybody else in the form of lower rates, which are ridiculously low to begin with. But that's the type of automation that is really going to improve the customer experience. And it's not just young people. If you've bought a house before, you know what to expect. Most of my investors, these are older guys. They're like, yeah, I would like to do it all on my phone, but right now I've got to call my bank. I already know what I want. Like if I'm selling my house and moving, I know I want a 30 year fixed.

I know what price range it's in. Just let me just plug all that in and go. That makes sense. So what do you make of a crypto? You know, the Celsius and Voyager and BlockFi of the world, you know, all these places that are originating loans with your collateral in crypto, if you have been smart enough to acquire enough crypto, and I'm going to talk about it from a lending standpoint, a homeowner lender standpoint. If you've been smart enough, you know, over the years to acquire crypto, you want to go buy a house, take out a loan against it, just knock yourself out. Right.

So then you skip this whole process. You just, you get your loan, you get your cash and you... If you're buying it outright. But you have to be buying with cash. Yeah, of course. Correct. Yeah. If you're borrowing against your crypto assets for a down payment and then you're going to get a home loan, it's the same process. You're toast. Yeah. You would have to be taking the loan, the entire loan, not just for the down payment. That makes sense. I think that that's going to be a huge disruptor to all of these industries to some degree,

not necessarily mortgages, but people who need personal loans or, you know, for, for, for different reasons, kind of like a humongous or something. So interesting because then, I mean, there's just really no risk to the lender, right? They've got your collateral sitting in their own platform. Yeah. Yeah. The young generation mobile home buying market this year is about $1.25 trillion. That's what millennials make up of the overall market. And that's an average. But that's going to grow. I, you know, the block fine, all those guys, I've, that's a great business model. Um, I, I don't necessarily, um, you know, there's enough market out there because not everybody owns

crypto. You know, most people are still going to be getting a traditional 30-year fixed home loan of course i don't think it's going to disrupt this market anytime soon but in general for people who need smaller loans it's it's nice to not you know to just have a have it quick and without really as much of a centralized what celsius paying right now oh like you just like it depends there anywhere. I mean, depending on what your cloud, but like if it's a stable coin, almost 10%.

And he explained that, you know, like it seemed, and then people think it's a scam or highway robbery or something. And it's just that they're actually giving you the money they're making instead of giving it for themselves, like a bank. Yeah.

Literally it's just doing what a bank does and actually sharing the money. Yeah. I'm surprised block fire or even Celsius hadn't gone through, you know, being acquired by Goldman or somebody else. And now that we see like the OCC sort of giving the green light for banks to custody crypto, I think that that's somewhat of an inevitability, but maybe they won't sell it to someone who won't pass that on to the customer. I've talked to Zach from BlockFi and Alex, both the CEOs of BlockFi and sell this. And Steve Ehrlich from Voyager, they also offer

a really high interest. And they all seem to actually be in it because it's important and they really believe in the cause and not because they want to sell it to Goldman who will then keep the entire 17% and pass it on to you. If Goldman got involved, that would drop pretty dramatically. They all seem pretty passionate about kind of F the banks, short the bankers, long Bitcoin as Pomp likes to say, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm in a tough spot because number one, you know, I'm a mortgage guy. That's just my background. It's what I enjoy. But I can't really integrate crypto into a loan that Fannie Mae is going to buy. No way. Right. You know, and I'm a big crypto fan.

We pretty much sold all our crypto, you know, launch and be and through that bootstrapping process. But I would love for them to allow Bitcoin as an asset verification in the process. That's so good. It'd be super easy to confirm. Okay.

But it's only something that HUD has to say. It's easier to confirm than money, right? I mean, it's literally on a blockchain. Yeah. Oh yeah. You have to go through more steps for me to verify a checking in a savings account through account check with form free than you do verifying your crypto holdings. Here's my wallet. Yeah. Oh yeah. So if HUD is to open up some of the restrictions on crypto, that's going to benefit B Mortgage App because we're ready to integrate as much as possible. But, you know, when I started out, I don't know if you remember the company Block 66. I don't.

They were a blockchain mortgage company. So when I had my light bulb moment, I started to do some research and there were some blockchain mortgage companies back then. And they're out of business now because they were trying to originate a blockchain mortgage, which number one, Fannie Mae won't buy. It's not compliant with Dodd-Frank. And the technology, they couldn't license it out to any lenders because it wasn't compliant with Dodd-Frank. And the technology, they couldn't license it out to any lenders because it wasn't compliant with Dodd-Frank. So very quickly, I realized that, you know, the wrong question is how do we originate a blockchain mortgage? The right question is how do we originate a qualified mortgage that Fannie Mae will buy using blockchain? And that implementation of it, just using blockchain, just starting out to verify credit income and assets, and then integrating more of the manual tasks into it as we go, is the right approach.

Because at the end of the day, Fannie Mae doesn't know if a loan officer verified credit income or assets or if a human did. Because they're only looking at the credit score. They're only looking at the assets that were verified. And if a smart contract verifies it, great. They don't care. They never even see that part. But another reason, some of these crypto projects failed was, and you often see this in early adopters, which is the reason why we had an internet bubble. We had a crypto bubble and a crypto, you know, company bubble bubble and it popped and the companies that are around now are the ones that are truly building

meaningful value and adding value to the space but they they looked at blockchain and they were light years ahead of anything that was applicable to the current market and there were many companies like that. Nobody would adopt them. With adoption in the crypto space, and even in the blockchain space, it's happening, but for the average person, they're not going to know it.

This is smart. This is why Figure doesn't even market that they use blockchain for a HELOC. They market a three-day HELOC. Great. People know how that works. They don't care about the technology. That makes perfect sense. So basically, they were way too far ahead of their

time because they they they had an idea but they didn't understand like you do from being on the front lines the framework that idea would have to exist with it you can't make the laws change you can't get around don frank just because you think you have a superior technology you have to operate what's there yeah and it is superior is superior, but nobody can use it. Right. It's superior, but you're going to go to jail if you try to bypass the mortgage system. So I know we're up against it here with time. So where can we follow you guys? What do you guys have coming in the future? You're still raising money, right? Where can people participate? We just launched our seed round. Our target is a million dollars. We're

offering a safe on WeFunder and it's wefunder.com slash bmortgageapp. And there's a lot of info there in terms of a raised video info about the team. We just brought on some guys out of MIT. One of them's a genuine rocket scientist. These guys are super smart. They're actually in charge of building out our automation. We've got the customer experience down. You know, we thank the time with just all of the new young homebuyers, you know, who love mobile apps. We think the time is right for a genuine mobile mortgage

experience. Think Robinhood app for mortgages, you know, with AI and blockchain. So we've created the customer experience and, you know, these guys are going to build out the automation framework. But other than that, we're going to be piloting our three-minute pre-approvals for W2 Borrower. No self-employed borrowers. No. Yeah. But that's our next delivery. Our next milestone is to go through this seed round and then start showcasing our automation.

And hopefully we'll go through a big Series A and keep having success. But I want to thank you. You've been a huge supporter of ours for the longest time. Fellow for Riddian. Um, you know, we connected a while back. You're the only Twitter handle that I follow for BT for Bitcoin news. And it's awesome. And you get some Gator hot takes too, right? We're both Gator fans, guys. That's how we really met and became friends. We didn't care about blockchain. We just wanted our team to win. Awesome. So where can everybody follow you personally?

I am on Twitter. You'll have to remember. I don't know my Twitter handle. I think it's bmortgagecw. That's right. I think that's right. Yeah, bmortgagecw. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Everybody, I'll follow now. Well, thank you, man, so much for taking the time. You know I'm really excited about what you guys are doing, and I've seen it come a very long way, so it's exciting to see it coming to fruition for you. Now we just got to get you up to Washington to start changing the laws so you

can even do more. Yeah. Well, I forgot this. The app is live right now. It's a mortgage calculator. Yeah. So go check it out. Just search be mortgage app in the app store. We're in revenue. We actually, it's a mortgage lead generator. So we're selling leads to our bank and partner. But anyways, I appreciate the time. Appreciate you having me, Scott. And you're highly respected in the industry and love your content, man. My pleasure. Thank you. Yeah. It took, took us too long to do it,

but here we are. Thanks. Well, we'll, we'll, uh, we'll have to update it. Uh, you know, when the, when the series a comes we'll have to update it. Uh, you know, when the, when the series a comes in and you're, uh, originating millions of mortgages. I hope so. We will. Thank you. Thanks Scott.