The Wolf Of All Streets - The “Dirty Bitcoin” Problem Nobody Wants to Admit | Gary Cardone

Episode Date: January 25, 2026

In this in-depth and candid interview, Gary Cardone shares his unique perspective on Bitcoin, emphasizing that success in the space isn’t just about timing the market but maintaining disciplined, long-term commitment. The conversation dives deep into the mindset that separates speculative traders from genuine builders, highlighting Bitcoin as a revolutionary “business” free from human error, offering unparalleled control over one’s financial destiny. Gary explores how “old money” is now entering the Bitcoin market methodically, contrasting with the youthful speculative culture, and discusses the complexities of “clean” versus “dirty” Bitcoin, regulatory challenges, and institutional adoption. The interview also touches on how Bitcoin has transformed his worldview, politics, and approach to wealth preservation, making it a must-watch for anyone serious about understanding Bitcoin beyond price action and hype.

Bitcoin believers love to say just buy the dip. But what if the real advantage isn't how early you get in? It's how disciplined you are right now. Today, I sat down with Gary Cardone, and this conversation went way beyond price. We got into the mindset shift that separates speculators from long-term builders. Everyone that I hear says, I want to be in control of my own destiny. I want to be the CEO. I want to be the captain of my ship.

All right, buy Bitcoin. It's the only business. You can buy 0.1, 1 Bitcoin, 10 Bitcoin, or 100 Bitcoin, and then keep adding. Why Gary calls Bitcoin the best business he's ever seen. I have never had, in my lifetime, the opportunity to invest in something that had no human era. That's like getting married to a woman who is never going to have a B. Okay, like, wow, I'm paying premiums for that. Why he believes old money is the real new money entering the market.

The flood of money from not the young people, but the flood of, what did I call it this morning? Old, new money. Yeah. It's the old money that hasn't really come into Bitcoin. All your friends are crypto, crypto, crypto, cryptocentric. But the money that's coming into Bitcoin is not crypto-centric money. It is old money. Now that money is very different.

And my trading options and chasing narratives is exactly how people get absolutely wrecked. The young man just said here, hey, I'm out. I'm out of crypto. He got out of crypto because he's trading too many options. He should be out of options, not Bitcoin. Like, don't confuse options in Bitcoin. You're probably going to get your head torn off trading options on the video. We also hit on something you almost never hear discussed anymore, the idea of clean versus dirty Bitcoin.

I suspect some of these SPRs, you know, dirty Bitcoin moved in, and now it's all nice and pristine clean. The stuff that's moved into NACA has probably been clean. I, you know, some of that had to be a holy. And I think all Bitcoin's got some tainment. Just like all money's got cocaine traces. If you've ever wondered how to keep stacking without losing your mind and what it looks like to treat Bitcoin like a multi-year strategy instead of a daily emotion, you're going to want to watch this one all the way through.

Picture me rolling. We're in Vegas again. Tupac. Your favorite artist? Picture me rolling. I didn't think that we'd start with Gary throwing out too much. I can love that. I'm going to love that.

Tickshy me, really. I'm sure you can. You can drink the coffee. Oh, man. Take a sip, buy the dip. I've got that mug especially for you. I like that. Take a sip by the dip.

Have you been buying the dip? I haven't bought in at least two weeks. Two weeks. Yeah, I know. I'm working on something that I'm grabbing some more fiat. Okay, wait, let's talk about that. It's obviously your intention from our last conversation is just to buy as much Bitcoin as you can. Yeah.

Right. So that means you might have to actually do something with your life to get that fiat to buy some Bitcoin. You know, this is the amazing thing, right? Like all these young guys that are in here, they're like, oh, you have an advantage over me because you already are rich. And I'm like, look, I need to buy another 500 Bitcoin. Okay. And you're trying to get to one Bitcoin. You're going to get to one Bitcoin quicker than I'm going to get to 500.

Because unlike your imagination, I do not have stacks of money. sitting in my house, just waiting to be deployed. I carry it in my range rover. I don't keep it in the house. Stacks and stacks of money. I've gone to Vegas with you. I know. Right?

So, well, you and I in Vegas, that depletes my fee out of storage. It doesn't increase the storage. But the point I'm trying to make is like I'm on empty. I have, just like you do, I have to go create new money to deploy into this, what I think is one of the greatest investment opportunities in a lifetime. but it means I have to do something. I have to either convert my old stuff to Fiat and get it out of the system that it's in

or I go create new money. You know, I go sell some art. Maybe that's what I got, you know, people tell me, hey, sell your art and turn it into Bitcoin. So my only point is I don't think people, people that are already in Bitcoin don't have an advantage over people that are just getting into Bitcoin.

They have to still go do something to acquire Bitcoin. Now, you're an all-in kind of guy, obviously. I know that at this, certainly at this point when you have assets and houses and everything, the only thing you're interested in is buying Bitcoin, but for someone who is new, maybe, and, you know, is younger and is looking to get that half of Bitcoin or one Bitcoin? Who could possibly be younger than me? Nobody is younger. Okay, that's right. But what percentage of their income at this point, if you were young, would you consider putting in? Would you still be all in if you didn't own assets and you were working a job that, you know,

pay the decent wage, but because maybe your approach is different now because you have all the other stuff. Well, I would do exactly what I did when I didn't have anything, which is every dollar I make, I grab 10 or 20 cents first and I store it. First money goes into

storage or savings. If I get a big bonus, I take 90% of the bonus. Most people take 10% of the bonus and put it in savings. I would take 80, 90% of my bonus and put it into an investment vehicle. The same thing is true for the 27-year-old.

In fact, I think the 27-year-old has an advantage over me because they have more time. The time value for them that they're going to enjoy if they just are disciplined. You're very disciplined. You don't need to be doing this every morning. You're like here every day. Dang, bang, bang. And you make investments in this kind of thing in your studio, which is awesome, by the way. Thank you.

So you could charge for people to be here. It's such a nice place. The Johnny Carson of a crypto. I haven't charged anyone yet. Yeah. I kind of think that's probably the right way. But yeah, so I would keep scraping funds and deploying it into an investment vehicle. Not, by the way, houses, not cars, not girls, but like literally scraping the first 10 cents off every dollar,

minimally, because look, what's the worst that's going to happen? You were never going to go broke. If you're scraping 10% and you're 27 years old and you wake up at 47 one day, 20 years later, it will be near impossible for you to go broke. And the more fuel I have in my car, the further I can go.

The less emergencies I'm going to have to do emergency stops. I don't have to do any emergency stops. So this is just a strategy about deploying nuts, right? Just like a squirrel does. He hammers himself all through spring and summer and fall, and then he goes into a sub-hybernation, you know. But he's there.

He's safe. I don't think people, people overcomplicate making money, I think. Yeah, I guess the next question then, though, you say put it into an investment vehicle at this point. If you were that young, could you just put that 10, 20 cents into Bitcoin and nothing else. I could. You could not. I could. Yeah. I could.

Only because I look at the valuations of everything else and it seems insane. It's the only thing to me that I look at and I feel like you can make an argument for being underpriced. I can't look at silver and think, wow, you know, I need a lot of this. It's the only thing that looks underpriced to me. Mispriced. Mispriced. Grossly mispriced. Misunderstood.

Like I think it's a misunderstood product because it's been. miss salt. The marketing on this has been horrible. You know, listening to Matt this morning, Matt Hogan from, I bit, I bit, right? Uh, bit wise. Sorry, um, who I really like Matt quite a bit. You know, he's a sensible human being. Um, the flood of money from not the young people, but the flood of, what did I call it this morning? Old new money. Yeah. It's the old money that hasn't really come into Bitcoin yet. Like, like this really, all your friends are crypto, crypto, crypto-centric. But the money that's coming into Bitcoin is not crypto-centric money. It is old money. Now that money is very different. It's coming in,

methodical. I'm buying at 88 to 92. It waits to hit the 88s and 92s. I've seen my brother buy 3,000 Bitcoin. Just method, 88, 90, 88, 98, I hope it goes to 84. I hope this retraces. I am begging for retrace. I always hope it goes down. And freaks people out. Like you see all these liquidations and I'm like, why are people getting liquidated over this? Because they're stretching.

They're buying options. Like the young man just said here, hey, I'm out. I'm out of crypto. He got out of crypto because he's trading too many options. He should be out of options, not Bitcoin. Like, don't confuse options in Bitcoin.

Like, you're probably going to get your head torn off trading options on the video. So I think all of these. I don't think people should be trading Bitcoin. Oh, I agree with that. I think you should store it just like the bloody squirrel. And you're going to wake up several seasons from now being extremely rich unless you think this is it.

It's a $2 trillion asset class and it's not going to do more. That has never happened to a $2 trillion asset class ever. It always goes up after $2 trillion. You don't lose $2 trillion asset classes. Never in history has a $2 trillion. dollar asset class expired. And we got silver at what? Silver's market cap is. Five trillion of silver? Five trillion. Now, that, that five trillion dollar market was three trillion dollars three months ago. Right. And people say two trillion, it's now it's so big, it can't move quickly. Well, there has never been an

asset class at two trillion that failed. Right. You get momentum. Once you get, you know, the old rule about inertia, a object in motion tends to stay in motion, a unless it's, you know, hammered with another force countering it. Clearly, I didn't go to the physics class many times, but the Bitcoin momentum, like to think that it's going to $57,000, which I would love, that would be awesome. 200 moving average on the weekly. Exactly.

Sitting there. Exactly. Well, I mean, everybody says it's got to get retested. I don't think it gets retested that low, but it would be an awesome experience, dude. so. And I think that's the difference between the more serious buyers, which I see the people that are coming in here. What did Matt say? You got a billion dollars just, 900,000, 900 million dollars. I had to jump off the spaces. I had a call with a $100 billion asset manager or something. I don't know.

Some ludicrous number. But yeah. So I like the idea of old money being the new money. Maybe we should drill in on that because I think you could talk about people putting 100% of their paycheck into Bitcoin all day. That's. a drop in the bucket in the ocean if you're talking about the hundreds of trillions of dollars of investable assets, even a tiny portion of that coming into Bitcoin. What happens when everybody, every institution says 3%. We've been talking about it forever. It seems like more of them are talking about it, but that's the old money being the new money

in Bitcoin. I mean, Bank of America just came out and said, we approve all of our advisors, to go up to four percent. I love that people were reporting that, by the way, that Bank of America says 4% of your portfolio. No, they didn't. But it's nice that you can. Yeah.

Yeah, but even that they made that statement, you're talking about the most ultra-conservative bank in the world. Like this is a hyper, hyper-conservative bank, Bank of America. And two years ago, we would have said, hey, Bank of America is approving 1%. We'd have been like, oh, my God, that is like nirvana.

It's four. And I've seen banks with allocations that are 20 times higher than that. Like when the analysts go in and do the study and they go, hey, we think the allocation should be 76%. They erase the document, the memo, because they're like, we cannot have anybody seeing this, and they reduce it to 35%. There was a time just a couple of years ago where 1%,

was going to be that makes Bitcoin. We used to, we probably talked about it. We used to sit on shows and be like, what happens when Black Rock says 1%? They're up to like three or four already. At least. As their recommendations, right? So, but it didn't, you know, send it yet.

Yeah. You know, you would have thought in those years that if we were sitting at $80,000, which we probably were a year ago and we were talking about this, if Black Rock says 1% were at 250 overnight, nope. Nope. Nothing moves this market right now on the news. side, which to me means it's a coiled spring. Yeah. I mean, I actually think, I'll get a lot of hate for this, but I actually think it's the

three or four million Bitcoin need, need, capital NED, real capital, bold letters, italicized and underlined. We need the $30 and $300 Bitcoin to get out of those old hands. Have to. Until that happens, this market's not going anywhere. It's going to go 90 to 120, 90 to 120. It has to get, Satoshi made a mistake. I think Satoshi made a mistake. Now you're going to get shit. Yeah, but, but, but and the mistake was that the issue wants of, a short term mistake maybe, the issuance, um, the way it was pushed into the market like, you know, 12 million coins within the first six years or so, eight years. Don't hold me exactly that that's what happened.

But they were priced so low. One, we know they were mispriced because three or four million coins were lost. And when you mispriced things, you mishandle them. You mistreat them. Most certainly, that did not get lost at fidelity, by the way. That got lost in self-custody and it wasn't respected. And when you don't respect the price, usually it's lost. I do not hear anyone losing $90,000 Bitcoin.

I do not hear that. But this price delta between $30,300 and $90,000, it's too big. You have 12 million coins that are priced under, you know, I mean, they're deep in the money. And there's no incentive for these people, especially with their political mindset. There's not a lot of incentive for them to move into the market. This is what was my fear about, oh, you guys quit asking for no taxes on Bitcoin because you'll see the biggest sell of Bitcoin in the history of mankind. Like, we'll get to $57,000.

And it's not right. You can't, you don't treat crude all that way, so don't treat Bitcoin that way. If it's a commodity, it has to get taxed if you taxed normal things, if there's truly a tax or a reason for tax. So I just think that we're going through this, this big gap between 300 bucks, $3,000, whatever you call it, and 90, And these old coins just have to come into the market. They have been.

I mean, a lot of people looking at on-chain analytics, I guess you can't necessarily prove they've been sold, but they've certainly moved, right? Coins that hadn't moved in a decade, 15 years. Well, I think they did move. They moved into SBRs. Yeah, then that might be it, right? But it looks like hundreds of thousands of those coins at least have been sold.

So you can make the argument that at least that process has started. Yeah. And those were all people that you would have looked at their wallets and said, these guys are never selling. Like if they got it at a buck, why didn't they sell it 20 grand or 50 grand? What was the magic, you know, bullet here at 100 that finally said, you know what, screw it, I'm out? Or are they just selling 10% of it for state planning and to buy their yacht?

And they're still holding a ton and it's irrelevant. Maybe, maybe. But I think a lot of this actually went into, they went into these treasury companies and the NACAs of the world. And because they thought, okay, one, it's tax efficient. and they're going to be able to take $30, $300, $3,000, $3,000, Bitcoin, no tax event, and move it into it, the shell, and it was going to explode.

Well, that has not worked at all. It went pretty bad. It has not worked at all. Yeah, I mean, the first investors in Nakamoto, I think, what was it, $112? Trading, you know, I don't want to date the data, but I've got to imagine 50-s-ish, you know. So even the guys who were early watched it go from a buck to, 28 and by the time they got their shares, it was three bucks.

And now if they didn't sell there at 50 cents, so that was not a very tax-efficient way to exit Bitcoin if that's what they were doing. And I don't want to pick on them specifically, obviously. It's kind of emblematic of everything in the treasury space, but still it has not worked out. Well, we're not picking on anybody. We're just picking the loser. I mean, we're picking the most poorly performing treasury company.

And I don't, like, if I was running the company, you would have the right to go, dude, you just blew it. I mean, you know, the point I'm trying to make, I think that's not going to happen again. I agree. The Bitcoin guys are going to be like, ooh, I don't think I want to do that anymore. Maybe I just pay my taxes. It would have been cheaper. Like, they've lost 75% of what they did.

Or just take a loan. And I don't think, or take a loan. That's the really weird part. The other part that I keep wondering about, and I wanted to ask you, because you've been in the space so much longer than I have, is what about those coins that aren't garnished with U.S. approval? Because I think Bitcoin is a world of two markets, the dirty coins and the clean coins.

That was a big narrative a few years ago. Before we had regulatory approval, I remember even actually Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary, kind of made the argument to me on the show that he basically viewed it as he called him either clean or green Bitcoin versus everything else. Like if it's been through the Silk Road, nobody's going to want to touch it.

But if it's newly mined and minted that they would, I just haven't, I mean, you're bringing it up, and it's a good point. I just haven't heard that narrative. But there was a time when people believe that coins that you could basically identify the providence and see where they'd been would be worth more,

that there'd actually be a bifurcated market. Like, it would trade at a higher premium. I don't think so. I think they traded a discount for sure. to have approved ballot anything that's been through Coinbase or Binance, it's cleaned up now. Right? And you can say that's right or wrong. But for instance, every now and then I see a deal.

Somebody will call me and go, I have 100,000 coins, but they're all on wallets and I can't get them out. The guy's dead broke. Can't move around. Doesn't want the. And I'm like, well, they must be dirty then. Like if you can't get them out, well, they don't want to pay taxes. taxes. Okay, that's one thing, but why, I think there's a lot of coins, dude, that are dirty that are trying to find a way into the market and they don't want to go through the

system. Either the person holding them is dirty, which could happen. Yeah, the biggest problem for Bitcoiners is that eventually if you want to go to Fiat, you've got to go through some centralized exchange where you're going to pay taxes. There's really not many ways to exit 90 something or $100,000 Bitcoin into cash with a suitcase. It's not like the local Bitcoin's days where that's literally how this stuff traded. Yeah.

Yeah. But you know, those guys cannot borrow against that Bitcoin. You got 100,000 Bitcoin, you can't borrow against. Because you have to show somebody that you have it. Correct. To be able to borrow against it. Correct. I mean, I don't know about you. I'm not lonely. Well, I mean, Roger Veer, I don't remember the explicit circumstances, but he

sort of claimed that he paid the taxes when he left and when he gave up. and ship and then they pointed at these other huge stacks of Bitcoin. Like once again, I don't remember the specifics. But clearly he had on the books Bitcoin and off the books Bitcoin or that's what they were trying to argue whether that was true or not. I think a lot of these guys probably have that. Whether it was through nefarious purposes or they just never reported it and you can't

just show up with it in 2025. Yeah. Have you been holding 100,000 Bitcoin for 10 years? And then all of a sudden you start selling it, the IRS is going to start wondering what you bought it at or where you got it, whether it's dirty or not. Yeah. Yeah, so it's just a real question. You know, how much of that's still out there?

You know, can I buy, if a Russian calls me up tomorrow and he's got a thousand Bitcoin, I want to buy a thousand Bitcoin. One, why is he offering me a discount? Why does it come with a discount? I used to see those deals all the time, and it was always a scam when you got to the finish line. It was like a game of chicken. We would find, like, we tried to do this for a lot.

while. There'd be somebody who was anonymous that had a broker that had a bunch of Bitcoin. They have a buyer. Give you a 5% discount or whatever. But when it came time to, okay, you send the money, you send the Bitcoin, there was no escrow strong enough that anybody was willing to send their money first. Yeah. I think they were all scams. Yeah, I've heard discounts much bigger than that. I'm talking about, you know, people that have locked up Bitcoin, they might not know how to get to it. They're looking for expertise to get to it. They want it cleaned. I just don't know why anything should have a discount to it on Bitcoin. I can see crude oil that's got some funk on it.

You know, it's got an Iranian label on it, or it's sour, you know, it's a different quality, but Bitcoin's Bitcoin's no sour Bitcoin. There's sour natural gas. There's sour crude oil. It trades at a discount. But to me, like, would you be comfortable talking to an Iranian in today, he's got 500 Bitcoin, he wants to sell it to you for $75,000.

Would you buy a thousand Bitcoin from an Iranian, someone you don't know, it got moved to your wallet and you get a 20% discount. Would you be cool with that? Probably not. See, is that bizarre? You're just, you're validating that there is clean Bitcoin and Bitcoin that's got noise on it. That means it's not all Bitcoin's the same.

You just have to wonder how you would explain it to the authorities. That's the only reason. I would love to theoretically buy a lot of Bitcoin at a massive discount. Yeah. Yeah, the problem is when it gets transferred to you, you're only going to know whether that's classified as clean or not when you go to sell it. When you get it, there's nothing to do. So if this Bitcoin was involved in some nefarious...

Taking in a North Korean hack or Mount Cox or... Can you imagine? You're buying this for your kids and 20 years, you die and 20 years, years later, they open it up and they're like, wow, I can't even use it. This wasn't yours. This was stolen. It's going back to its rightful owner. Yeah. I mean, you've seen, you've seen the U.S. government. Roger Veer, they stopped him in Spain.

He does not have a blue passport. And they, you're not going anywhere. So this theory about, hey, your keys, not your coins, and nobody's going to take it from you, if the U.S. government, the Russian government or the French or the, or the UK want to incarcerate you they will incarcerate you and you will give them the Bitcoin

they'll in UK they'll incarcerate you for saying something about your meme yes and then take your Bitcoin yeah so I don't I think if a government wants to take your shit they're going to take you I don't know how we got off on that but it

it's just a world of two two products and people keep talking about Bitcoin's Bitcoin I'm like is it really is it because you just told me you would be uncomfortable buying from an anonymous person from another country. You'd probably buy a Bitcoin from me. Yeah. But, you know, the truth is, how do you know where I got it? You're just making a decision on, you don't know if it came through a coinbase or Binance.

What if it came through one of these? Yeah, I guess the question is, what discount is enough to handicap the risk? I don't think there's any discount worth. Because you don't know until you sell it. right so yeah the bigger question is just i think you just said that you would pay what do you do with it you know like where do you where do you put it because bitcoin in this future institutionalized world unless you think we're going mad max and bitcoin becomes the global currency of the future and great then your self-custody bitcoin is great but let's just assume that you're a normal person

if you're buying that many bitcoin you're wealthy you're going to want to take a loan against it you don't want to go to jail for tax evasion or something because you're wealthy you're not going to take that risk because you can't do anything with that Bitcoin. If we go mad Max, Bitcoin's the last thing I want to buy. You want guns and ammo. I want a million rounds of ammo. I want food. I want seeds.

I want water. I don't want Bitcoin. I don't need Bitcoin. I need weapons. And I need to, I'll steal your Bitcoin. I'll steal everything you have. And by the way,

I can barter 22 long rifles a lot easier than I can Bitcoin. I don't need electricity to make $20. 22 long rifles or 30-odd-sixes to work. Like, I can trade that for food. I can trade it for other things. And who the hell wants to live in a Mad Max world, man? Okay, this is crazy. That's the anarchist's wet dream,

but it's like I think Bitcoin's worth zero. Yeah, when Bollagie did that, remember, Bitcoin will be a million dollars in three months, whatever his bet was. Yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah, I was just, you know, burning a million dollars to show people the problems with inflation, and I respect that.

in any world where Bitcoin goes up remotely that high in a short period of time is not a world you want to live in, period. I've said that repeatedly. Like, I don't care if I've got my Bitcoin if it's like you and our army going to Gastown, protecting our rig. Yeah. That's exactly right, man. Yeah. It's interesting. I hadn't really given thought to the dirty versus clean Bitcoin idea in years.

But it's going to come back around. It's the only thing that explains to me while we have the pricing where we have it because someone was selling Bitcoin. Right, but they're doing it through like a reputable OTC desk, hence why it's affecting the price. Because that transaction wouldn't affect the price. Well, that, exactly, but that's the way this Bitcoin's gotten cleaned. Like, I don't, I suspect some of these SBRs, you know, dirty Bitcoin moved in, and now it's all nice and pristine clean.

The stuff that's moved into NACA has probably been clean. You know, some of that had to be an old Bitcoin. Has to be. And I think all Bitcoin's got some taint on it. Just like all money's got cocaine traces on. Most of all Bitcoin was involved in some nefarious activity between the years 2013-ish. Come on.

Yeah. It all went through the Silk Road one way or another. Yeah. It's a marketplace. So it doesn't make it bad today. It just was used at one time for something. It doesn't mean the dollars I have in my pocket are bad right now. Let me ask you this then.

So I know that you've like me, bought some Naka. You know, I know you're a strategy bull. I'm back in strategy now. I think it looks really good. But all of what you've seen over the past, you know, six months to a year, is there any reason for us to touch any of this and not just buy Bitcoin? No. Absolutely.

No, I know we do it. It's a bit of a freaky thing that goes on in my head because I should, like I own a lot of micro strategy. I should have just sold my knocker today and buy Bitcoin. Okay, and now I lost $7,000. I got to bought it at 88. Sold the NACA. Take the loss.

I chose not to take my losses last year. Me too, because I think this is going to be a better year. Dude, me too. I called my account. It's on the 30th. I said, I'm not dumping anything. I did exactly the same. I'll take my loss this year. I think it's going to be more important for me to have half a million

dollar loss here, half a million dollar loss there, instead of taking it last year. I don't, I hope we're right. Look, silver and gold are telling us everything we need to know. I can, I understand why people are investing in silver and gold and not Bitcoin. It's the old money, man. It's the old money. It's the way they think. They're not going to think about Bitcoin. They watch this run up on silver and go, oh, wow, that's smart. Okay, I'm going to do that for my family. What happens when that stops? I think they start rotating into this.

Oh, wow, look at this thing. It's cheap. Bitcoin's cheap, man. It's just sat there, done nothing. That's what I'm saying. Like if someone handed you, you know, say that you, a meaningful amount of money as a percentage of your net worth and said, but you need to buy something with it.

maybe I'm too deep down the rabbit hole, but there's no other asset that I look at and say, I confidently want to buy and hold this thing for the next five, 10 years with this huge amount of money that somebody just handed me. I would buy Bitcoin. If you sell a house, you're buying Bitcoin. I would suggest to anybody and everybody that they look at their portfolio right now, every investment they have.

Like I have an investment in something that I have offered, It's a private deal, right? It's one of these companies. I've offered the owner of the company, I'm like, hey, look, two years, you owe me all this money. I'll let you out for 50 cents on the dollar. As long as Bitcoin's under $100,000, I'll offer you 50 cents on a dollar.

You need to hit this deal real quick, and I would literally take all of it and move it into Bitcoin. So you take a 50% discount on money owed to get into Bitcoin now. It's owed to me in two years. That's saying, wow, Gary's saying the time value of that money is at a 50% discount in two years, which is crazy. It's probably around 8% right. It gets 8% on the money.

And I think the Bitcoin will grossly outperform that. Plus, the risk I have with this deal is two years. A lot of things can happen. You go wrong. Okay? The people can die. The business could go away. They could make a mistake.

They could get sued. They could get a class action. They could get so many things. They can lose their staff. the AI, you know, the industry they're in, the rules could change. Whereas Bitcoin, I'm looking at it going, wow, no human era. I have never had in my lifetime the opportunity to invest in something that had no human era. That's like getting married to a woman who is never going to have a period.

Okay, like, wow, I'm paying premiums for that. or, you know, they're never going to have an emotional upset moment, right? Come on, man, that's awesome. Okay? It's no human error. I'm sorry. It's, it's, I come up with analogies that I think other people can understand, Scott. Every, no offense to all the women.

None of them watch this. Yeah, that is true. It's like not a single person that could possibly be offended. The girls that watch this don't have periods. I'm sorry to the three, three women out there who are all post menopausal for watching this content. Yeah. So embarrassing. Anyway, it's the best I could do right off the top of my head.

If that was off the top of your head, that was high quality. Thank you, man. Good stuff. That's why you get the big bucks. That's why I get the big bucks. Yeah, now I just wonder why I'm so bullish micro strategy again when I can just buy Bitcoin. Because micro strategy is not going up unless Bitcoin goes up. I think, okay, so while we're talking about the strategy company, this MNAV thing,

which I have always been a huge detester of. I think it's the dumbest thing. I think P.E. multiples are dumb to. I think they're all both. All these metrics are made up. There's no reason for any of these companies traded a premium. I mean, maybe a slight premium for operational. And I could see strategy.

Okay, dude. But it's not because he's got $700,000. Like, just because you have a lot does not mean you're going to be able to do more. I don't get it. He is never going to be a bank. If he is a bank, I'm selling all my strategy. He does not have the culture to be a trading bank, a J.P. Morgan.

All these Bitcoin guys, or he's going to turn into an options desk. No, he's not. He doesn't have the culture for an options desk. You need an Enron for that. I don't see a J.P. I can see any kind of trading. Maybe lending, but even that.

It's not really the core, it's not his core business. And it's not his mindset. I just don't see where the premium comes from. So I look at it back to this conversation. I think all of it was a mistake. I should have just bought Bitcoin. I would have less headaches, less worry, less concern.

The cool thing is the money that went into strategy was never going to go into Bitcoin because the ETFs weren't around then. Right. Well, that's coming and gone now. He no longer has that edge. I think the edge he does have is large pensions will go into MSTR and they won't go into NACA. They're going to go into MSTR and they're not going to go into BNR. Well, this was always my argument against all the Treasury companies.

If strategy is already there, what the hell are you going to do? And I've heard eloquent, well-articulated arguments for why they should all exist. I had a long conversation with Mark Moss, I'm sure you know. and he explained all the different debt instruments. And, you know, when you start to open the world to all of the different kind of bonds that exist and all of the different kind, yeah, then maybe each of these companies can focus on something the strategy is not doing. I just don't feel like we're there quite yet. He's doing enough. And he's now offering a 10% almost risk-free yield on STRC that appeals to that huge wall of institutional money.

What other product is somebody going to come out with right now that's more compelling than something he's doing? I don't know. Now, I don't know why he offered 10 and 11. I thought that was like... It's a high cost of capital. Why did you do that? You said that. We talked about that, I think, in our last conversation.

I never understood that. You could have done eight, man. You could have done eight. It's double the money market accounts. There's $7 trillion in money market accounts. There's what, how much money is in multi-dwelling real estate? It's double what my brother pays out, right? So I was very surprised he went to that level.

it was kind of an now maybe he wanted to destroy the other ones just right just put a nail line than this it's over um worth two percent to not see any composition yeah

yeah I don't think it was necessary but you see the flows into STRC I mean the guy on your show today was going hey just another million dollars he showed up it was like three million more 10 million one in minutes but like

all the money market money should go to that it's all seven trillion should move into 11% why you can get in four and a half my lawyer told me the other day he's about 800 years old 50% of his wealth is still in bonds and I can't imagine what the rest of it's in okay but like not one Bitcoin and he knows everything about what I've done for the last six years I'm like wow

and he's watched you do it I mean he's seen every time he sees me hey what's Bitcoin doing every time he sees me. I saw him this weekend. He moved 300 weapons for me. And he was like, on the way out, he's like, hey, what's Bitcoin? He's seeing a million rounds of ammo moving. And he's like, damn, this guy collects a bunch of shit, you know?

And it's like, it's just the same. I'm collecting something that I think is going to have extreme value one day. There's only 16 million of these units. There's not 21 million. 16 million units. Yeah, because five are lost. Probably more. Some of those 16 are tainted.

I think they're tainted. So I look at this and go, wow, it's like the property owned in Tira Verdi. I'm like, man, there's only 24 of these. I'll just say your house is pretty scarce. Yeah. I don't think there's a person on the view on the planet with a sunset view like yours, certainly in the continental United States. It's staggering, man.

Like what's that worth? The house is worth less than the view, really. The quiet. So to me, I like those kind of things. 14 houses like that. I need like one. But the truth is I would love to rent it. Anybody that wants to take that note, I'll rent it from 50 to 70 to 100 grand a month. Yeah, all day long. Oh, totally, man. That house has cost me a lot of money, man. I could have bought, I think, $8,000 Bitcoin. That house cost me $8 million. That's $10,000 Bitcoin.

$80 million house. Okay. More, dude. It's $100.000. 110-ish. It's a nice house, but it is not worth $110 million. Not a chance. Memories, man. You know? I got some bad memories at that house. That house saw a war fall. Let me ask you this, though. You get this guy, 50% in bonds, right? And we know that they've been recommending a 60-40 portfolio forever and it's slowly, you know, as you get older, obviously more bonds, less risk. Where does Bitcoin fit in to that if you're a new entrance? and a conservative investor who's listening to their RIA, like is it 5% of the bond side? Is it 5% of the stock side?

Is it 5% out of each and you own 10%? Right? That guy, if he's holding 50% bonds, let's say the other 50% is just like broadly indexed to the stock market or something. And you're telling him to buy Bitcoin. What's he selling? I'm not sure he's going to make the move at all.

theoretically, you know, like what? Yeah, but I think this is really important because it, I think we're going through this. We have a weird. Don't make the move. when it's 200,000? Yes. Yes, but it may extend the roadway,

the road for all of us, because this money is going to be really, really hard to move. It's, even though he saw everything, he looks at me and goes, yeah, but you're Gary Cardone, you're take rest of you. I don't do that. You do that. And he's okay with me doing it.

And he'll, hey, I know this guy. He's going to be okay because he's wealthy. He's not super wealthy, but he's wealthy. So I think these people don't do shit until their kids get their money. And that says, oh, my God, man, 10 years from now, we're still going to be running. That to me is very, very, very positive. So let me answer your question. If he takes some of his stocks down, he probably won't do that because he's, you know.

It's almost like they're married. married to these things. I mean, my sister had Philip Marsh. She's like, yeah, but I've owned Philip Marsh forever. You don't even smoke anymore, man. Okay, like, it's a bad company. You're getting a 4%. I had to offer six. I said, look, I'll give you six. Do you trust me or Bank of America? I trust you more. Good. Send me the 300 grand. I'll give you 6%. And I'm going to turn it into Bitcoin if you're not going to do it. I think everybody in their family should do that. Like if you're a Bitcoiner, offer your family a better deal than they have with their equities, and then you turn it into Bitcoin, and maybe give them some upside. I'll give her some upside with no downside risk.

It's a great way for me to get more Bitcoin and help my family and probably help the lawyer. I just don't think these guys move in, but if they do move in, they'll start with the bonds. They'll cut some of their bonds and maybe buy some ETFs. They're never going to, these people will never self-custody. So the Bitcoin community that talks about self-custody, this old money is never going to do this, except maybe years in the future when they go, oh, I'm going to save my trust in self-custy. I could see that, but we're talking a long time. Yeah, they're all coming in through ETS. Yeah. And these MSTR products. See, I can see that. I could see where he would go, I'm going to do this 11% thing. That'd be a great trade for him.

buying Bitcoin. He's buying Bitcoin exposure, and maybe that's like the gateway drug. Yeah. What that's, it's, it is the gateway drug. But I mean, it's a hell of a lot better than four and a half percent on his bonds, right? Which is going lower, right? Which is going lower. I mean, he's getting triple. And somebody's not talking. His, our, his investment advisor is not saying, hey, you can triple your distributions through MSTR. You don't even need to understand anything about Bitcoin. My brother's real estate program, the biggest thing about that program is that no one has to read the white paper. No one has to talk about self-custy. Is that a Bitcoin product? I think it's a hybrid. It's, it's, it's, Bitcoin is moving into the

system, man, guys. Like it's coming, but it's moving in the system and it looks a little different. It's not pure Bitcoin. Well, I was going to say that's the actual answer to how those guys get exposure and it's passive. They don't do it on purpose and maybe that's a cop out, but I remember having a conversation with a friend from college who, like, I would never buy meta stock Zuckerberg. Yeah. I hate that guy. Hated Elon Musk. That's right. I would never buy Tesla. And then I jokingly say, you know, what's in your 401k? Well, it's the NASDAQ and the SPY and brought exposure. I was like, guess what? You own a lot of meta exposure and a lot of Tesla exposure. So if you're going to, be broadly indexed to the market in any way, shape, or form by any product,

then all these companies you hate led by all these guys you hate are a meaningful part of your portfolio. Absolutely. Good luck getting rid of that. Boy, it's easy to get rid of it. Well, by Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah, by Bitcoin. Like, you have an opportunity.

You didn't have five years ago. Let me ask you this. And you don't have to answer necessarily. I know you've had like ebb and flows in politics. Right. there was a period where you definitely thought it might be worthwhile to get much more deeply involved in politics. Obviously, you gave, you know, very publicly a lot of Bitcoin to Trump for when we went to Nashville.

Do you think that your position on Bitcoin has changed your politics at all? Because it seems to me, as a friend, that you've become slightly more apolitical in that time, as I have, by the way. When I tweet something about, you know, like, man, I'm really proud to be an unaffiliated voter right now because I want to be opted out of all this. For me, Bitcoin and going down that rabbit hole is actually what eventually made me more disillusioned with all of the systems, not the opposite way. I didn't find Bitcoin because I hated politics. I started to hate politics because I found Bitcoin.

Yeah, well, I've always hated the politics because I think anybody that's a professional politician, they're a professional politician. It has nothing to do with being Republican. or blue or independent. Look, I'd never really been involved in politics. But when I saw Trump come on, I knew that I could help the Bitcoin community. And that was why I gave them 12.8. I could have given the money directly to Trump

and had a better relationship with him. But I chose to go through the Bitcoin community. One, I wanted to show the Bitcoin community, hey, my allegiance is to Bitcoin and the industry. It's not to this group of people that are trying to do politics. But I thought the leverage that, and I think it was very useful. I have no regrets over giving the 12.8 Bitcoin. My job was, hey, I got to replace it.

And that's my job to replace it. What I saw was that that 12.8 Bitcoin, one, got liquidated instantly. Right. Two, I'm pretty sure that half of it might have gotten to Trump or less. by the time everybody took their fee in their little MLM multi-level marketing program. I mean, the amount of people Amway.

Dude, I looked at it and went, wow, this is awful. So that's the first thing. Second thing is I've given up, I was right before. Professional politicians don't do anything but do professional politician things. I will never give any money to anyone. I'll do the thing with Deaton.

I'll provide my house, but I'm not supporting the political process anymore. I'm going to support getting super rich, super, super, obnoxiously, disgustingly wealthy so I can say fuck off. And I will say I'm really disappointed in the people that have fuck off money who are not saying fuck off. Like shame on you, dude.

You have you money and you're not saying fuck you. And we need some real men to stand up. We have 3,500 billionaires on this planet and very few of them are saying shit. I would argue. I would argue there's another thousand that nobody knows that are just from Bitcoin. I agree. I agree.

3,500 billionaires that we know about. How many guys do you know that have got to be close who are not on any list? Yeah. Quite a few. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't know if it's a thousand, but. A few hundred? Yeah.

I mean, look, you most certainly have some players. Yeah. And I don't see any of them. And if you're not standing up and pushing back, I'm talking to you. Okay. Like, I'm really disappointed in what I see from men that have stacks and stacks to cash. They're so scared to lose it. Doesn't that just kind of prove the point of Bitcoin?

Well, I know you're not the biggest fan of self-custody, and we've talked about this a lot just because it's a single point of failure. But if you and I, if you have money and somebody else has to hold it for you, they can take it away just as easily. That's the fear. It's sitting in a bank. Oh, on self-custody? I'm just talking about it in general. I have children. You have children, okay? If I did self-custody, I would tell you I never do. Of course. And, but if you come to my house, you're not going to get anything but a bullet in your face, okay? Or, and two dogs. Sorry, you come into my home, armed, unarmed, whatever, do. You're going down. But the self-custody thing,

has always been a really bizarre thing to me because I'm like, why are y'all even talking about it? It seems so weird to me that you would even discuss it. It would be like me, hey, I have $40 million in cash, gold, and silver at my house. Wow, why would I do that? I'm self-custody. So it's not that I love the idea. I love the idea of being able to carry a weapon,

but I'm not carrying all of my weapons. And none of these banks have ever stolen money for me. Like the experiences I hear, I'm not saying that it hasn't happened to other people, but I have never had a bank steal money for it. I've heard stories of people being debanked, but then you just switch banks. It's not like your money disappears.

They just say they don't want to do business with you anymore. It's a wildly different thing than having your money stolen, which you're right. You don't hear about in the United States at least. Correct. Now, I can see if you live in Lebanon or something. Well, I can see that too. I can see where if I lived in Greece, I mean, yeah.

If you're in the Eurozone, you're going to get ripped off. I mean, their money is failing. Their whole continent is failing. So I've been around a while. I've just never had a bank rip me off like that. So maybe it'll happen one day. And I banked in the UK. I banked here.

Funny enough, the banks that I'm dealing with today, I've shown them my positions that they don't actually have. They've seen money move from the bank somewhere else. Well, they know where it's going. It's going to Binance, Coinbase, and the other exchanges. And no one's ever complained. Which is interesting because there's so many people who have said they got the bank the minute their money touched something crypto adjacent.

Now one time. Have I ever had the bank go, hey, I'm going to slow this trade down. You can't move it to. I have stuff on automatic. I wire Bitcoin. I don't know who you bank with, but Bitcoin has given me the, the bank called me up one day, said, we're going to let you do your own wires.

I said, finally, dude. I can do a wire for 100 grand without touching the bank. Boom, hit some, just like Zell. Just like Zell, do. Bang, bang, bang, wire, no fees. Every year I call my bankers up and go, wipe every fee you've ever charged me this year. Every fee, every wire transfer,

every little small fee. I'm like, I'm not paying any of them, dude. Don't do, and you shouldn't do it to other people, but nobody ever makes this phone call. Call your banker and say, wipe my fees out for the year. Or I'm leaving. I don't even say that.

I just go, hey, man, but I'm a decent client. They make 70 bips on me, which is fine for me. The point I'm trying to make, once I showed them what my position was in Bitcoin, they have treated me better. I mean, like, appreciably, better. Like bank president called, hey, I'm in Tampa. You want to have lunch in three weeks.

They want to know. Right. And they literally see the money come in the system and move out to finance or whoever. And they don't complain. Now, two years ago, they weren't treating me like that. They were treating me like, oh, what's this thing? What's this thing? How much has that changed? Yeah. In the last two years, especially when I showed them. I mean, I just opened up some, Hey man, let me show you what I'm doing over here, because all they see is what I have in the bank. And they started seeing this other thing, and it moved. They saw it move from 16 to 90. They are bending over backwards to help because they're not, they know their management and the board isn't there ready.

They're not ready to go into crypto, but they know that one day that's going to happen for them. They see Bank of America make that move. No, right? They don't want to irritate me. So last time we were talking, we don't need to revisit it, but the Bitcoin as a business obviously resonated with me massively, but certainly with everyone else. But the beginning of this conversation, you also said, well, Bitcoin is a great business, but I want that business to grow.

And for that business to grow, we still need to go find fiat elsewhere. So how do you balance the pass specificity of like Bitcoin being a business? It's totally passive. I get my money in it. It grows. I have no employees. all of that with, I want to grow this business beyond just the appreciation of the Bitcoin to go get more Bitcoin. What's the balance? Well, maybe you misunderstood me, but for me,

that that is the business. Like, the show that you're doing, you're going to blow this show up, right? So you're going to put more and more and more energy into it. Once you start doing something successful, you don't stop. Right. Okay, I'm successful now. I'm going to stop now. I hear people say that. Hey, you've had a lot of, look, you're up for, you know, 400% dude. Yeah, why wouldn't I keep playing this game? So my job, Bitcoin is a business. Everyone that I hear says, I want to be in control of my own destiny. I want to be the CEO. I want to be the captain of my ship. All right, buy Bitcoin. It's the only business. You can buy 0.1, 1 Bitcoin, 10 Bitcoin, or 100 Bitcoin, and then keep adding, and all.

All you do is just keep adding to, if I said to you, hey, look, you're going to do these podcast shows, and then you're going to go mine gold at between 9 p.m. and 9 a.m. People would be like, wow, he's a superstar. He's got three jobs. And we would give you kudos for mining Bitcoin, but for mining gold. All you're doing is mining Bitcoin by really mining Fiat and converting it. Yeah, mining to Bitcoin. Right?

I don't, it's just, if it's good for strategy, if it's good for my twin brother, if it's good sitting in a BMNR, it must be good. I call it the family Bitcoin Reserve, the FBR. It's awesome, dude. If it's good for all these companies, if they, he raised, what, $40 billion? Dude, if he can raise $40 billion, how is it not good for me? Like, I don't need strategy. I need to do this on my own.

And then I can do some strategy if I want to. But it's really making me question, hey, why do I have any of this stuff in other products, right? I could just have it all in Bitcoin. And all of that's sitting there just because the Bitcoin wasn't ready at the time. Yeah. So I just think it's an awesome business because I reduce all human error. I have no legal documents to sign.

This is a big problem for me. You call me up and go, hey, I got a deal to give you. I want to show you a deal. And the first thing you have to do is send me an NDA, which, by the way, I don't really understand it. Really, there's a comma. One little comma goes missing, and you're going to argue in a courtroom.

So I just, like I'm working on a deal right now, the paperwork is like crazy. I can do Bitcoin without any of that noise whatsoever. I don't need a lawyer. I don't need an accountant. I can buy my own Node 40 software for $5,000 a year, and I can run rings around the IRS forever. I bury the IRS, okay, with this technology.

So I've never had a business that didn't require salesmen, didn't require a human resource department. Every time I do something, it gets so big, I have to have an HR department. And that's the curse. That is the curse. I'm out. Gary's out.

Once HR shows up, I need to go home because all the rules start showing up. He was HR. No, he's, he is human. Human management. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's just, it's, I don't need any people. I don't need any headaches.

I don't have any lawyers. I don't have any documents to sign. No NDAs. I don't have to create big files. And, ooh, what did I do? I was with Kathy Woods one day. And, you know, I carry notepads with me all the time. She's like, you have the red one you gave me in my bag.

Well, you should be writing on it, right? So, and I make all, she, she said, you, you keep, notes of everything. Yeah. And I could just see like, legal, legal, uh-oh. Nah, wah, wha. I'm like, dude, I buy Bitcoin. I have nothing to have it.

I can write all my stuff down. And it's, it's the greatest, like I've been in a lot of businesses, this is the greatest business I've ever seen in my life. It's only subject to me. Yeah. You mentioned a few times, obviously. And by the way, I share none of the, upside with anybody. Yeah, you don't have to.

Not that I don't want to share. No shareholders. No shareholders. No, no shareholders. No, nobody call him. I called Grant up one day and said, hey, I've got a problem. I'm in the seven of your deals. I want you to liquidate you. Dude, I can't. I can't liquidate you. He's got 42 funds. I'm in seven of them. So I couldn't get out if I, at a 90% discount. Now, he would have got me out at 90, but you know what I'm saying? Anytime I have a problem, if somebody said, hey, Gary, you have full on Canada. answer, like, I can liquidate all my Bitcoin tomorrow morning. I don't have to wait.

That's a superpower. That is a superpower that nobody talks about. Now, if you're just in equities, cool, you can do that with equities. But if you're into these big businesses, see, I have two choices. I either go create a big business and work my ass off or create a big monster business and have more time to myself to do some other things, which may be, oh, I want to mine more Bitcoin, or mine more fiat for Bitcoin, or I want to study, I want to learn something,

I want to build a new, yeah, I want to do something new, you know, which I think that makes, that makes for a great life, right? It's not, I had a bunch of zeros. It's simply a game for me at this point, but if I had a bunch of zeros and it comes with a bunch of headaches,

was it really worth it? Because I know people that, have a lot of zeros, man. And they are literally on a plane every day. Every day. Seems like your brother's on the same trajectory. Yeah. So many headaches.

And now they just found Bitcoin, I just watch it in real time and watch you talk about it. It seems like one day it's just going to, all those funds are just going to be Bitcoin. Yeah, he, he's a funny cat, though. He likes the game. Of course.

And he's on that, you know, I have to be a little careful. It's just not what I, like for me, I would not want all that noise. Like, I wouldn't go public. I'm glad he's taking my seven things public. Yeah. Because I'll get a premium.

And I'll be able to get out of the real estate. Like, I don't want to be in the real estate. Right. I want to be in the Bitcoin. Yeah. And I think, you know, the strategy he's deploying is great. He'll have a lot of customers. But that is not liquid assets.

They're very difficult. And I don't need more income. Do you think adding Bitcoin to, those products for him has been a net positive? Yeah. As far as marketing. I know it's net positive as far as the actual structure. No, no.

Marketing for him? But it's opened up a huge... $15 million worth of value in marketing alone. He laughed at me. Just by saying I like Bitcoin. We saw it. Listen, when Trump said I like Bitcoin. One an election.

He told me that the first deal he did most every one of the customers that came into that fund had never bought Bitcoin, had never bought real estate with him. they were all brand new customers they just liked the story so the marketing buzz on it is awesome i mean he has reached more people through this uh tool than all the family office work he's been doing which is really painful you know going to see all these families so he's going to probably build an investment fund and you know go crazy it's just not it's not the life i want to live I've been in so many meetings

like, wow, I just don't want to go to any more of them. But he's doing the groundwork. But I don't think Bitcoin's going to get him in a position of what I'm doing, which is, oh, I'm reducing the noise in my universe, and I don't want any shareholders. I mean, there's people who just live for the hustle. Yeah, he likes the game, man. He digs the game.

He doesn't want to sit around and paint, study. Yeah. Well, it would be impossible for him. I feel like it would have been impossible for you not so long ago. Oh, yeah, that's true. That is true. And Bitcoin helped me in this way. Like, Bitcoin really has helped me become a better person.

I hate to say it that way, but it has helped me become a better person. I think about things very differently today than I used to. I did not know that I had an option to get off the treadmill. I really didn't know. I actually would probably have been a shame to get off the treadmill. And so Bitcoin's allowed me to not be on the treadmill but still do something meaningful. And I am certain I will be right. I've done this my whole life.

And like this is a no-brainer for me. If I am wrong, which knock on glass, I could be wrong. If I am wrong, I will have so much fun doing it. That's right. be worth it anyways. It would be. And if I'm wrong, my thesis is correct.

Doesn't mean that it plays out exactly right. I mean, I could die tomorrow morning, okay? And I won't see the true benefits of this. But from everything I can see, just being in this for five years, just the war I went through, which we won't go into. Owning Bitcoin helped me win a war.

And it was because no one understood Bitcoin, and they made a bunch of, stuff up about it. It really helped me actually settle something that was not going to get settled. So I've just learned so much from having how the world works in Fiat, which is just make as much of this stuff as possible, print, print, print. And this, you know, 16 or 20 million units, finite algorithm, code, it's just made me look at the world a little differently. Same.

I just wish I found it earlier. It still pisses me off that there were the 2010 guys, the 2013 guys. You and I wouldn't be here right now. No. You would be somewhere else. Who knows what would have happened to you? So what's your average cost?

It's low. I mean, it's much lower than I. Sub 30. Yeah, that's what I was figuring of, 27. So my average cost is, I always ask people, hey, what's your average cost? Because to me, it really is important. Now, you're still buying Bitcoin.

Every day. See, see, he's 37 going up. I'm 57 going up, and I'm proud to go up. Now, I'd love to double my position at 57 or triple it. I'd be awesome. And that's the only reason that I watch price. The only reason I watch price and listen to all these things is, oh, wow, is this thing going to melt down?

Because if it is going to melt down, I'm not getting freaked out. I'm developing strategies to go, okay, if this thing goes tits down, like it just goes like, you know, Peter's out, what am I going to do? I'm most certainly not selling. I am deploying strategies to figure out, okay, dude. See, one thing that I think Bitcoin community did poorly is they sold the pump too much. Yeah. Hey, man, you're going to miss it.

You could miss Bitcoin. You get Bitcoin at the price you deserve it. such a shaming. I deserve it a lot lower. I don't know what they're talking about. I deserve a lot more. I don't care lower. I just deserve that a lot more.

But Bitcoin's shown me that it gives me a lot of opportunities to buy it. It has this, man. Okay, it does this. And like, I think I'll still be able to buy $88,000 Bitcoin. I said that to you on the plane to Vegas. In May, we were over 100. And I was like, I'm buying 88. Yeah.

And you're like, I don't know if it's soon. but it's, I'm going to buy 88 too. And people thought we were nuts when I mentioned that. That was peak digital asset treasury. But if you think, if you think that, like, then you get, you have some time to go build your Fiat nest to deploy it. And to me, that's the thing people aren't doing. Hey, go out and hustle, man. Go out and make some money while you still have this opportunity to convert because it's not expensive.

But is there a price where you stop buying it? It goes 250, 300, 500. Like, is there anything that makes you a seller? Well, I mean, I don't even know. I would just, I wouldn't sell. I would just, at that point, you're going to be able to get a 3% loan against it, and you're just going to peruse.

I mean, I have, I'm in the sevens right now. Percent. Barring against, like, and that's the hash rate on paying. Which makes you wonder, like you said, the 10 to 11% that a sailor is willing to get when you can get seven. I just comparison shopping and call you, I think coin base I'll give you that. Exactly.

Small volume, they'll give you five. I can go to my bank and get five. So I'm working on that right now. Hey man, the tax man just told me my house was worth $14 million. I've got $5, $6, $7, $8 million worth of equity in my house. Give it to me, dude, at 5%. I'll move that into Bitcoin like in a flash.

So to me, borrowing money at anything under 8% and deploying it into an asset as long as I can pay the bills. Yeah, that's right. But you have to be cool with, hey, man, here's a $60,000 bill. Now, you've seen me travel less in the last year. Because, hey, yeah, dude, I got a $60,000 bill to pay Coinbase. I got a $30,000 bill to pay this guy to borrow, to hold on to my borrow of the Bitcoin. So when do I stop?

I mean, one, I don't even know if I'm going to be here tomorrow. Okay, so I don't have to worry about, I get to worry about two, 50 when 250 comes. I don't know what I'm going to do. But if it goes to 250, it's probably going to go to 500. If it goes to 500, we know it's going to a million. I don't know what. But now I'm able to borrow so much.

Now we're at 200. You know, you just got to be comfortable with these swings. Anyone that's in real estate has no clue what their portfolios worth today. Not a clue. I always joked about this. Imagine if you had to deal with watching like people watch the Bitcoin chart every day, if you were watching your house value on a chart. Yeah. How panicked people would be. But nobody thinks of their house that way. Most certainly, man. And that to me is the magic. You should think about Bitcoin the same way you think about your house. That's the point.

Totally. Why are you looking at the chart? What's the point of looking at the price of Bitcoin today? I think the reason people do that, they have not set how long they're holding. Bitcoin. Well, that's why I asked you. Ask any investment professional, they'll say, what's your exit plan? Yeah. Well, I'll look at my exit plan in four to eight years. I think it's a four to eight year whole, which, by the way, real estate is 10 plus 10. If I go into a fund with Dan Tapiro, I'm eight years plus. If I go into a fund with Mark Uisko, eight years plus, Bitcoin allows me, one, I don't have nobody to talk to.

There's no two and 20, not offensive to any two and 20s. It's cool. But I don't have any of those. I don't have to read any of these complex documents. I don't understand. I really don't. And most of those deals, by the way, require you to commit to 500 grand, then you've got to give them 100, and then you've got to give them another 100.

So you're having to squir. Capital calls that you forget about. And there's nothing wrong with those businesses until, oh, wow, I can just buy Bitcoin. But the thing is you have to have a plan. My plan was, I need this. many Bitcoin to be meaningful. Yeah, you have a number in mine and you're not there. I think about 1500 Bitcoin. I think 1500 Bitcoin is like it will keep me in the one-tenth of one percent of the worth of all nations. People go, hey, why are you doing all this? Dude, I want to stay in the 1%.

I have no interest in falling outside of the 1% ban. Why would I want to get anywhere outside the 1%? I got here. I am most certainly going to stay here. and it's comfortable up here. No offense to anybody, but it is much more comfortable on this end of the bell curve. It's just funny because, you know, people always say these cliche things.

You don't buy Bitcoin and get rich. You buy Bitcoin to get slow poor. You know, or I mean, get poor slower. Get slow poor. Get poor slower, right? But that's the idea. You're actually buying Bitcoin to preserve wealth, not to create it.

Both. Yeah, both. Both. I think to create super, wealth without destroying my mind and without destroying my ethics and without destroying my life I can get massively wealthy and have an awesome life like I have done this six or seven times and it's it's a lot of work and I the amount of miles I have flown the countries I've lived in I've rented my children have lived in at least 20 homes right they're 18 years old at least 20 homes

We rented most of them, but I didn't own them. And I enjoyed that journey. I did enjoy most of the journey, but I don't have to do that. If I would have found that 20 years ago or 15 years ago, I would have pulled out of these businesses much faster because for me it is about, is my energy turning into something valuable? I have a limited amount of energy. And this is why I look at Bitcoin.

I did a post the other day and said, hey, Bitcoin is a storage facility for energy. And people like, you're an idiot. Well, it costs 30 cents a decatharum to store for one month a unit of natural gas, 30 cents, that is worth $3. Okay, most people... 10% a month? Yeah, dude.

And most people will store Nat gas for three to four months to get the peak market. So they store at $2.50, $0.50 for four months. That's $1.20, $2.50 plus $1.50. is $4 to sell at $450. And by the way, that 30 cents every month went to another company. I can buy Bitcoin from energy that's created from energy, that the energy complex has not moved. They're up 10% this year, all companies.

And I'm Howard Hamm, who's one of the biggest all independent oil producers in the United States. He stores gas every year. Dude, that guy one day is going to wake up and go, I'm not doing this. I'm buying Bitcoin with all this summer gas. I'm going to sell it or in the winter when he's going to sell it. He converts it to Bitcoin, put Bitcoin on his balance sheet, which he has oil, gas, and electricity sitting on his balance sheet.

And no 30 cents moving out to Columbia, okay, a dollar 50. Because $5 a barrel to store oil on a floating container. That's $15. bucks, $60 product, you're at $75 bucks. Who's making money? The storage units. And they're hiding oil all over the place. Dude, I can store energy, convert it to Bitcoin, and pay zero.

And I get to decide when I'm out. These people that are storing all this, they're having to get out because you pay these storage fees every month. Just like miners need to sell Bitcoin to rent. That's right. So I look at that and go, wow, I get to store this stuff. I can store it for two. four, five, six years and decide when I want to get out on the commodity ride, right? When it hits a

peak, I can decide later. But I'm not paying anything to store it. I pay Apple every month to store all my data. I'm literally buying money and storing it on a device or storing it with Coinbase or whoever, and I have no fees. Wow. Wow, that's cool. I think that's cool. And I think we have not even seen, we haven't seen any energy players do this yet, and they will do. I think they do that before my lawyer buys Bitcoin. No, no. I think so too. Because they will get it. And every energy company right now, they have divisions now looking at this. This is not, because I could build a billion dollar business pitching this. But it's funny, a few years ago we would have said that they were looking at mining Bitcoin. Now you're just saying, they should buy it. Yeah, I think

they will look at, well. Take the money and buy it. It's cheaper to buy Bitcoin than it is to mine it. Okay. Fred Teal has $137,500 cost to mine Bitcoin. While you've got guys that are doing

it in decentralized microspaces for 30. Yeah, it's crazy. Right? Is it really their cost to... Oh yeah. 30 grand, 30, 40 grand. Now, see, this is another problem. Like, to me, Bitcoin mining is not a scalable. It's not scalable. It only became scalable when they became

AI data centers. Well, it's scalable if you want to make $137,000 product in a $90,000 market. It's not working. And this is what, this is what Sailor understood very, very early on. First time I saw Sailor was when I came into this market, it was like, it's cheaper to mine Fiat, convert it to Bitcoin than it is to mine Bitcoin. By an appreciable, like you don't have any people, man. There's no staff. There's no human error. There's no funding facilities.

There's nothing. There's no operational risk. There's no story to tell about HPCs and high compute. There's no necessity for the Alphords to come on and go, hey, this is going to be super. It's like, dude, it's so simple. Okay. It's cheaper to buy Bitcoin.

You can't mine it. for this. Every time I talk to you, I just want to sell everything and buy Bitcoin. I know, dude. And I don't do it. Why? I mean, I do buy Bitcoin all the time. I just sometimes I wonder why I own anything else when you articulate it. Well, because we have it. We have it. And we're like the lawyer. Hey, man, I'm in it. Do I really want to move it? But it's a great question. Hey, why are we still in these products? I don't know, really. I mean, it's a bit of a, I mean, it's a great question. actually. I'm on the way home, I'm like, why am I still? Because I got millions sitting in these other products that, you know, minimally.

I mean, it's sitting there and I'm paying 8% or 7% to somebody to borrow. So it's a great question. I think it's down to inertia, though, you know? Like, once you put something in place, you tend to want to keep it there. I actually think we need to all buy more Bitcoin. Yeah, I agree. Put book ends on it. No, tell me, I saw some of your quote.

if you don't mind me asking you a question. Tell me how has it been with the arch public? Because I had done that. I just didn't do it. It was with Gemini at the time. And I've got a small position with Gemini. But they're moving now. They're going to all those exchanges.

Gemini, Cracken, Coinbase, Robin Hood, OK, X coming. I did it with Robin Hood, but that's because one of my best friends sold his company to Robin Hood. And I was like, you know, look good for him, look good for me, we'll do with Robin Hood. They actually just lowered it to three BIPs trading fees for the API, which is huge because there was a pretty big spread. It's been incredible. I started literally at the dead top of the market.

They're at 50 grand. Yeah. Started as a test portfolio. It's 10x that now because I just kept putting money in. And I'm even. So I deployed literally 30 of the 50 at 125 just to get in and show it working and have just let it run all the way down. And now at Bitcoin at 96, 97, it's buying you. Ethan Salana as well and trading them, but it sells those to buy more Bitcoin.

That portfolio is flat and I started, you know, 27% above the market. That's amazing. It's pretty incredible. Yeah, that's really amazing. It worked well for me. I just didn't have the, I don't know why I didn't. Maybe I just ran out of steam on the Gemini thing. I just keep saying it's like 50, 50, 50.

Yeah. But it's just a much. more brainless way to do what we're talking about. I don't think about it. I just put money in there and if there's a dip, it buys it. So it just, it's much better than I would have done. Because listen, if it was you were, if you had said to me, hey, you have this amount of money and this is the price of big one, I would have just bought it. Right. I would have pulled a sailor. Yeah. I got this cash. This is it. So I'd be, I'm probably up 25, 30 percent, even at flat than I would be if I had just deployed it all at that time. Yeah, a few people have made comments that like, Sailor always buys the

tops and I'm like that's just not true. It's such a stupid comment. He buys every week. How can you always be buying this time? Exactly. I mean, he did really well this week. So I think it was 88 or 89 or 90. But that's the way I do it too. If I get cash,

I'm not sitting there trying to... So now I just put the cash into this thing and let it happen. Now given like, if we had gone from 125 to 150 the next month, instead of 125 to 80, it would look very different. Yeah. And people would be like, you're an idiot for not just buying it all at 125, right?

So, I mean, the market kind of went my way as far as being able to dollar cost average down. But like, I was buying a significant amount of Bitcoin in the low 80s when I could have been firing it off at 125. And that's the trick, right? Is, hey, when it's going down and everybody's negative. And I manually bought a lot on top of that at 88, which I told you. But those bids were sitting there for eight months, seven months, waiting. Yeah. woke up one day and I was like wow that that was like you know it's like 89 5 and I'm like should I just

should I pull it and do it and then that that is the professional investor though yeah like and I don't think we've really seen those guys here yet yeah you know they're going to just sit the bid there and they're going to hey you come to me um and that's going to prove to be I know I just you know like I would love to buy it 55 but like the wasn't that long ago that I could And it wasn't that long ago that it was at 75 on a dip or that it was at 80 on a dip. So those dips seem to be getting higher, not lower. Yeah. Do you think the volatility is increasing or decreasing?

I think so. I definitely think it's getting smoothed out by the players that are in the market right now. I mean, until it started moving a little bit here, I think the like implied volatility of Bitcoin was basically historic low and way lower than any tech stock. Now, why would that continue? Maybe just because it's an institutionalized product. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't.

I think it might be one of those notions that you get just because of, you know, recency bias. It's been not volatile for a while, so it will remain not volatile. We know what Bitcoin always does when you think I can't move anymore. It puts in a $30,000 candle to the upside in a week or down. Can you explain why silver and gold have moved so well? And Bitcoin's just sat here like a beach whale. I asked people that question.

I ask people that question all the time. Dave Weisberger calls it the hot ball of money. He thinks that just the FOMO money that would have been in crypto or all coins at this period in time saw Silver on the news. And it was an easy story, as you said before, and FOMO to end. And we know how that ends for those people, right? Oh. Not well. Like the person who buys, you know, silver waiting in line at a store at a 15% premium doesn't usually make.

money or anything or who buys a who buys a board ape for three million dollars yeah because it can never go down to me gold and silver or like leading indicators that bitcoin it should be like has been historically it really like if gold and silver can do what it's doing it's doing this because it fears war and it fears currency debasement that's the only reason they're actually doing what we think think Bitcoin should be doing. Dingo. And you can say, well, no, this is about how I compute and all that stuff. Hey, we're getting to a price where we have artificial intelligence and robotics.

We've never had robotics and AI that could alchemize, if that's the correct word. But like, do you really think we're not going to figure out how to turn, how to build a synthetic silver? If it gets to a certain price, dude, you'll start. figuring out other. Fake diamonds. They're perfect. This is great example.

Okay. The diamond market. Excuse me. Not fake. It's broken. The beer's monopoly has been absolutely slaughtered. Nobody talks about it. This was a product.

You can't make diamonds. Well, guess what? We're making diamonds that are more flawless. Like if I got married again, I would not buy a $200,000 perfect diamond. I'd go buy a diamond that looks better than that. And it's fake.

Who cares? I mean, really? Who cares? You can't tell the difference now. Not really. I mean, and by the way, why would you want to be walking, your girl walking around with a $200,000 real diamond? Like, that's crazy. So I just think we're getting to a point where what country said, hey, we just found, you know, 5 million ounces of gold somewhere. Every time gold and silver do this, you hear this field that's found. Every time oil does it. this at 100 bucks. I just don't think oil can sit here at 60 bucks and we see silver and gold just keep going up and up and up. I'm like, none of what's happening makes any sense. None of it, man. Everything can't be at an all-time high at the same time. And gasoline prices and energy prices just collapsing. See, it's really bizarre to me. Because energy to me is King Kong. There is nothing without energy. There is no Bitcoin without energy.

and $60 barrel, there is no $75, the whole world is going to sell oil. $75 they are making in the United States, it's $45 to make a good return on crude oil in this country. Maybe 55 in the Arabian countries, maybe 60, okay? I don't think it's anywhere close to that, but that's the numbers they report. these are great returns for a product that you don't have failure on anymore. There are no dry holes. There hasn't been a dry hole in 20 years in energy. Like it's science now.

It's just total science. It's not an art farm. It's not like it was in the Landman movie, okay, Billy Bob Thornton, which is a great show. What a good show. But it's not, you don't have these failure rates like you used to. And therefore, you're not going to have the return. Like if there's no risk, a 10% yield on finding oil is going to be awesome. And I think we're going to see technology figure out how to do this better, faster, and cheaper.

And we're going to be at $30 or $40 crude oil, you know, in my lifetime. Yeah. We most certainly won't hit 100. And if we do, it's because we're at war. And that lasts three or four days. And then we go back down to where the real numbers are. In fact, a war will destroy demand. and we'll see a low print.

So I just don't, this is a really weird world where I see hyper deflation occurring. Hyper, hyper, hyper deflation. I can go to school today. I can get an MBA and AI from Stanford for zero. Yeah, online. Wow, I can go study at Stanford. Well, I stuck both of my kids in this program. Yeah, dude, go get an AI program, right?

$400,500,000 MBAs now I can get from next to zero. because I can learn anything I want online today. Like really, really, I can learn almost anything I want. So I look at that and go, wow, people will be greater educated at cheaper cost. That seems like a good trade. Yeah, a lot to think about somebody in this room asked me the other day. I said, if you went back to college, what would you study? I was like, I wouldn't go back to college.

No, chance. I wouldn't spend a day in college. there's not one college that I would spend a dollar like I'm going to do everything I can to talk my kids. You're just buying the certificate at this point if you can learn it elsewhere. Not that you weren't always just buying the certificate, but at least, you know. Nobody's going to give you any value for it either. I don't.

In fact, I think you could be, like I won't hire those people. I want to hire somebody that I can give data to and it's not having to go through all these filters. It's all the college does. It creates all these filters instead of good old basics, man. You know, I know you're going to be successful. I was telling Linden on the way, oh, this guy will be monster successful. Why? Because you're disciplined, dude.

You are consistently showing up. You don't, I'm going on holiday now for three months. See you guys. Very, very, very consistent. And when you're not here for a week because you went and did something, you're, hey, I'm sorry, I wasn't here. Like you will be massively successful. Yeah, but you will be because you show up and you make commitments.

You came here, you invested. You didn't buy Bitcoin. You invested in this facility so you could do buy more Bitcoin. That's great reason to invest in it. That's the greatest investment, by the way. Not Bitcoin. Invest in yourself, man. Reading books.

People poo-poo on this. like Bill Gates, like them or not, he takes like weeks off every year and goes just reads. And I'm not a big fan of the guy, but anyone that's read lots of books seem to be very knowledgeable. That's, you can't, I can't read a book if I'm grinding 18-hour days in building a business, which is, by the way, the way you build businesses, 16, 18 hours. It's not an eight-hour-a-day job. If you want to work eight hours a day, you are going to work for, for someone. You will never own your own business.

Owning your own business is hard. It's hard. It's lonely. It's hard. And it rarely pays you a big premium. On the actual time. Yeah. And then when you do get out, it's 12 years later. Again, this is Bitcoin. I'm like, wow, I just got to hang for 4 to 8. And then I get to review. Four to eight, four to eight, four to eight years. no one I know not a human being has built a business and exited it in under six years not a human being I know no one not not one human being if you do exit you have so many hooks in you you have a consulting arrangement with the firm you can't compete you have an

NDA I have an NDA on me right now like people don't even know this about people like oh wow yeah I got hooks in me I can't go do that business I can't say certain things right? I can't compete in a particular area of business. And I'm like, oh, cool, dude. Somebody owes me a quarter of a billion dollars. It's cool. You know, I won't talk. For $250 million, it's cool. But most people aren't going to create that kind of an exit anyway. It's going to be $20 million, and you're still going to have the hooks. And you can't compete in the field that you're really an expert in. So Bitcoin has none of these requirements, which I find, to be just a super.

That's why I call it a businessman. Because when I compare the two, I'm like, wow, I have no lawyers. This is awesome. Love it, man. Well, the moral of the story is by a hell of a lot more Bitcoin. I could talk to you for, I think we just knocked an hour and a half out. Did we? Yeah.

I just saw the clock. Maybe 20 minutes a good product. I hope you didn't have anywhere to go. No, I didn't. I'm going to lunch. Thank you, man. I appreciate it. As always.