The Wolf Of All Streets - The Future Of Bitcoin: Dan Held, Preston Pysh, CJ Wilson, Steve McClurg, Greg Foss

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

We sat down at Bitcoin Miami for a roundtable with Dan Held, Preston Pysh, CJ Wilson, Steve McClurg, and Greg Foss. It turned into an epic conversation about the last year in Bitcoin as well as what to expect on the horizon. We cover bond markets, the energy FUD, Bitcoin mining, and the importance of educating politicians. JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER 📩 https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS ►► Have you ever had your exchange go completely offline during days of high volatility? Of course you have. We've all been through it. Those days are no longer with Bullish. Bullish is a new breed of digital asset exchange that empowers users to trade with deep and predictable liquidity across highly variable market conditions. They also have incredible automated market-making and industry-leading security. I can't get enough of this platform and it's fully regulated. Sign up here: https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bullish/youtube Bullish is licensed by the Gibraltar Financial Services Commission. Virtual assets and related products are high risk. Consult your investment advisor and trade responsibly. Bullish is available in select locations only and not to U.S persons. Visit bullish.com/legal for important information and risk warnings. EPISODE LINKS Production & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/ FOLLOW SCOTT MELKER • Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets • Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io • Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe • Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3FASB2c

And I had spent my entire career in high yield. Mm-hmm. Listen, high yield bonds are the worst possible investment right now that I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah. They're yielding less than the inflation rate. That's before defaults, before expected. Exactly.

Anything. Unexpected defaults. Yeah. It's ridiculous. This episode is sponsored by my good friends at Bullish. Stay tuned for more information on this amazing company later in the episode. Sometimes the best things are the ones that are spontaneous. I had a planned conversation with Dan Held from Kraken and Preston Pysh, but as it was coming together, we added CJ Wilson, Greg Fost, and Steve McClurg,

who is from Valkyrie, and had an epic conversation about the last year in Bitcoin and what's coming in the future. This one will absolutely blow your mind with some of the greatest brains we have in the crypto industry. Last year, Man of Wynwood, the shit show that was the Bitcoin conference last year, obviously. Now we're at a much bigger one. But last year, we basically had this narrative of Michael Saylor, Tesla, institutional adoption of Bitcoin. We're a year later, and it's been completely different than anyone predicted and completely different than all the things we were talking about. So I want to just start with

anyone who wants, what surprised you in the last year in the development here? Well, Tesla went to Doge. Michael Saylor is still buying Bitcoin. And we're in an air conditioned facility. We're still no institutional investors. So we're good. Nobody's actively touching my face. Oh, yeah, here we go. Thank you. Cheers, man. Thank you. Thank you.

We got sponsored by Coke anyways. You see that? Brown cola. Cheers. Cheers. Uh-oh. This show is sponsored by the coronavirus. I knew I was going to get corona at this thing. I knew I was going to get

corona at this thing. I knew I was going to get corona. What is surprising is I haven't gotten corona. What? We meet so many people. You did get corona. Right.

But not at the conference. We meet so many people. Yeah. I'm just surprised I don't have it. I thought we had to wait a couple days. Don't you know

you're going to do that? I've been here since Tuesdays. Don't trust Verify. Well, actually, the thing for me so far was the strike announcement. I thought that was pretty cool. Also, Kraken leaving San Francisco. That's another one. I think we have someone who can talk about that.

Jesse's a very principled man, and so when he sees something he doesn't like, he is vocal about it. And he's not really enjoyed San Francisco's district attorney she say not you know she say doesn't prosecute theft it doesn't consider theft to be a crime Wow so on Market Street it's very dangerous I used to live in San Francisco for nine years and so you might get punched might get stabbed and this is like a normal daily thing this isn't the heart yeah it's crazy I mean I worked at uber uber was a market and Van Ness it was really bad around there and my boss's

girlfriend got punched that day Wow walking to work yeah and you just heard about the stories all the time but But not robbed, just punched? Just punched. He was nuts, went up and punched her and then ran away. Yeah, so anyways, we're not in San Francisco anymore. But Kraken's a remote-first culture, so we can work anywhere we want. So I spent three weeks in Chile in January working. Wow. So yeah, it's fun. That's why I like Kraken. Yeah, that's awesome. What surprised you in the last year?

Well, listen, before we go there, I just want to call out Jesse for his support of the Canadian truckers. That was unbelievable. I'm still embroiled in that, so I need to be careful what I say. But, you know, it was the leadership coming from Jesse. He was one of the first guys to make a contribution. I don't want to dox anything and I don't know what ever happened, but here's the cool thing. You see commitment in the Bitcoin community that I've never seen before. I sat on stage yesterday with the big billionaires. It was pretty cool that they have the same principles as a bunch of plebs like us, right?

Exactly. They're common people who want to help the world. So it didn't surprise me but to hear ricardo salinas sitting behind me saying stuff that was absolutely beautiful uh it's just refreshing so i didn't you know you have the sailors of the world but these are big big money movers right like uh orlando bravo is a hundred billion dollar private equity fund like this is some big-ass size and his commitment and his conviction in this in helping the world it's like Jesse you know I see him in my tweets yeah yeah isn't it crazy yeah anyway I was so happy to be on stage with them yesterday

and then their conviction at that level it level just opens new doors for me. That's basically it. Bitcoin's going mainstream. Billionaires. Celebrities. Yeah. Athletes. Yeah, beautiful.

I mean, there was a whole athlete panel yesterday, right? And the thing is, too, that there's this whole, I would say, cultural thing that every couple years as Bitcoin grows you get new entrants and those new entrants are coming at different levels. Yeah. And they're coming for different reasons like at first like the cypherpunk movement then it's like hey maybe it's money maybe it's payments and then it's like wait there's alpha there and now it's like wait censorship resistance freedom and that stuff is kind of coming all the way back to the original thing.

100%. So the way I look at it is bitcoin is like one of those amazing bands that has a huge catalog yeah when people come in they're like they hear that hit song on the radio it's such a good shit they've got albums and then they go look back at all the stuff yeah they're picking out b-sides i like that's a great analogy yeah absolutely that's so cool but like canadian truckers obviously ukraine russia those are things that were not even on the radar a year ago. Now that people are talking about it happening in theory, but it actually happened in the last year. I like to say as a Canadian, I'm doing too much talking, but as a Canadian, if you would ask me three years ago,

with the likelihood that Canada would freeze bank accounts within the next 20 years, three years ago, I would say okay it's not zero probability but it's got to be like under 20% you know? Way under 20%. And then three years later it's a hundred percent certain. And not only that, and this is what you guys may not know, not only did they freeze those bank accounts, those bank accounts are now marked, they're unfrozen but they're marked forever. There's like this digital identity that this guy's been a troublemaker. I don't get, well, I get it, but I don't buy it. Like this is, this is an assault on your freedom as an individual. Yeah. I mean, it's impossible not to switch over to Bitcoin or something like Bitcoin after you've experienced this. Right. In my opinion. And I say something like that because a lot of people don't know what to switch to, right? If you're in Russia and your bank account gets frozen or another authoritarian country like Canada and your bank account gets frozen,

what do you do? What do you do? You're so right, man. That's painful to hear that. Yeah. That stings. I do worry about this, though, because I hypothesize that as well, that people would, you know, if they had their assets seized,

they'd go, yeah, I need Bitcoin, right? Yeah. I was just talking to Saifedean about this last week, where we were at Ricardo Salinas' conference. Oh, yeah. Which was really fun. But we were talking about Lebanon, his home country. Right.

And I asked him, you know, do your family members and your friends and people you know, are they, they're waking up and going, wow, this is probably a financial crisis in Lebanon. Are they all shifting over to Bitcoin? And almost none of them are. Yeah. Really? So I still think that means that we need to craft a narrative. Right.

Is that an on-ramp thing, though, where they can't get access to it? I think it's an education. It's more of an education thing. I am paraphrasing him. I think it's really easy when you're in the bubble to assume that everybody else is even close, but I don't think so. Yeah.

For me, the celebrity sports panel was just to have Aaron Rodgers up there, Serena Williams, and then you've got to think about their network is not a financial network. And it's people that are seeing Bitcoin, like why Serena Williams talking about Bitcoin? And I don't know how big her platform is, but I mean, I know one thing it's probably what 10 million plus people following her at least. Right. So like, that's huge. The other

thing that I think is very different from where we were last year was you were just starting to have inflation poke its head out when the conference was happening last time. And I think a lot of people, the whole transitory piece was very believable, where now it's not only not believable, but it's accelerating and you're getting this negative spread that's just like blowing out that I think you have so many people that are now coming into the billionaires that are starting to show up and saying, all right, I knew something was wrong, but now I know for a fact something's very wrong and I need to do something and I got to do it fast. So what the hell is that? I mean, Salinas is 60%.

100%. Yeah, 60%. His thing was beautiful on bonds. It's insane. Why would you own bonds? What's the best thing that can happen to you? Is you get your money back, 100 bucks, but it's worth 60 bucks after 10 years.

Good luck losing less. Okay, so he nailed it yesterday. You know, that's been my thesis for so long. And you and I talk the same language. But, you know, really you're earning 5% negative real rates. If you assume CPI is actually 8%. That's time now. Yeah.

It's not, it's closer to 20%. All right. So it's so crazy. And I had spent my entire career in high yield. You know, listen, high yield bonds are the worst possible investment right now that I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah. They're yielding less than the inflation rate.

That's before defaults, before expected, unexpected defaults. Yeah. It's ridiculous. You're not being compensated for risk. In 2016, I left a premier bond manager as a portfolio manager because I looked at the bond market and I was like, this is the top. There's nothing that can go well here. Yeah. Right?

I mean, you used to be, even up until 2016, you could take a lot of risk and get some additional spread on top of risk-free rates. But around 2016, that spread was gone. The spread for the risk that you were taking was gone. And I really didn't put it together until a couple of years later. It's like, okay, this has to be out of your portfolio entirely. Completely. Yeah, I know.

Entirely. So 60-40 is dead forever. There is no more 60-40. It is dead forever. I did it yesterday with Dan Atafiero because he's been a global macro guy his whole life. And he basically said there's no alpha left in macro. Anywhere. Anywhere.

Anywhere. And you're 60-40, you're 40% is already in a money losing situation. So even the bigger guy that no one calls out is Ray Dalio. Like his whole disparity strategy where he actually leveraged bonds against the volatility of equities. Yeah. Can't do it. By leveraging bonds, an increasing bond price would offset a bigger decline in equity prices. But his, the lift you got from his strategy is a levered

fixed income position, right? It works great when you rates go from 14% down to zero. But as I said on stage yesterday, Ray, that strategy is done. It's over. And he's talking about the world. Yeah, but we like him. He's got to sell his bags. He's a genius. It's over. And he's talking about the end of the world. Yeah, but we like him because he's said Bitcoin before. He's a genius. He's famous because he has a big fund. Has he allocated in his fund? I'm not aware that he has, right? When Bridgewater moves to an allocation in Bitcoin, then the game is off. I believe they said they were investing in crypto funds, right?

Yeah, that's true, Dan. Yeah. But it was very broad yeah and then it's a very small percentage he's buying ripple and doge he's diversifying diversifying I'm going to use that. Hashtag diversify. I think what we're experiencing right now, especially like a year ago, China had banned Bitcoin money again, right? Like at this time when we were all here last year. They've done that now to a degree that we're seeing America is now the leader in cash trade.

Yeah. Yeah, that's big too. I think it's really interesting. And as a result of that, we're seeing like miners are seeing a lot of like ESG FUD from the government now. That's a thing. And they're talking about that. But I think the FUD landscape was a lot harsher a year ago, two years ago, because now the grip the FUD had on the common mindset is losing fingers.

You know what I mean? They've lost the China thing. They're losing the conflict money, because that was always something we said. And they're like, oh, that's not real, and now with Ukraine, we're seeing that it is real. So the use cases on our side are gripping up harder, and there is really pulling off. I always find this funny about ESG. G stands for governance.

Yeah, yeah. Bitcoin is a phenomenally good governance. It's amazing, right? Yeah, for sure. ESG typically just focuses on the needs. Right, yeah. And the S is a really important part for a lot of people, which is like the societal aspect.

Right. Social aspect. So the next thing that happens, like the thing I think that's really going to be the wood stake through the heart of the FUD vampires is once the social justice angle It's good. It's like through El Salvador

and some of these other relatively third world countries. Once they start to come up and rise up a little bit because of their Bitcoin adoption, because of remittances, because of the interactions and the point of sale stuff that's coming because lightning's developing, that's where I catch up all these things. I think that's where you're going to see like, oh, wait a second, this benefits poor people. It's not like some rich guy's playground. Yeah, it might be Ricardo Salinas' playground to a degree. But if it helps regular people, then that's it. There's no more FUD. There's literally no other FUD because even Janet Yellen came out the other day and said,

oh, you know, we've actually, yeah, you know what? They're not using it to skirt sanctions. Everybody knows that there are advantages to trading on both centralized and decentralized exchanges, but why not choose an exchange like Bullish that offers the best of both worlds? Bullish's total trading volume recently exceeded $25 billion in just seven months since they launched, and they have the best liquidity in the game when it comes to Bitcoin USD. Now, Bullish has released the first major upgrade to its liquidity pool technology with the introduction of a concentrated range bound liquidity pool for the Bitcoin USD trading pair. This upgrade triples the order book depth within a range of 2%, making it one of the world's deepest Bitcoin USD trading pairs. This industry leading order depth means you can trade confidently at scale with clearly

understood price impact. You should check them out immediately at bullish.com slash Melker. The energy FUD has really died down. And that was the narrative a year ago. Well, yeah, that was a little. That's very right. I want to call it one of the most distasteful things I've ever seen. Yeah, I agree with that. Well said. Well said, Dan.

Right. But it does seem to your point, like we've had these sort of cyclical FUD in the history of Bitcoin. It's price drops and it's China ban, India ban, only for criminals, ESG. But we are, this is the first time that I've seen us actually addressing them and seeing them disappear. Maybe they'll cycle back. Now we have sanctions. Yeah, and I think that's the new one. As a group of people, maybe the outspoken people or whatever, we're professionally responding to this FUD now in a way that is way better than it ever has been. Because I think the toxicity of people on Bitcoin Twitter or just in general has been really the loudest voice. But now we have very professional voices because of the Wall Street influence, because of the, I would say, the non-Bitcoin people, like saying, listen,

no, I'm sorry, you're wrong. You can't say that. That's not true. Kathy's publishing an entire like PDF, 100 page PDF or whatever. Yeah. And it is like, it's a lot of work, right? But eventually what happens is the truth wins and that's why we're going to win. That's all it comes down to.

Great. Well said. Yeah. Well, go ahead. Well, I was going to say also in the mining space too, a lot of people are coming into the mining space with private equity, professional backgrounds, they're publicly listing these companies, and they're top-notch people that are coming in and helping to run some of these companies. And they're coming with a lot of ammo, and they're trusted sources.

And big valuations because they're literally on NASDAQ. Exactly. And that's what's helping a lot of these big miners is that they don't have to sell Bitcoin as much. They can sell shares. That's right. So they can sort of dilute and run the sailor playbook and do like a speculative attack.

Can I, on the mining theme, I'm not sure if you guys know, I don't make a whole big deal, but I'm involved in a power company in Canada that has 400 megawatts of power. So we're mining Bitcoin, self-mining. But listen to this little, one of our plants has a license to pump 9 million gallons of lake water a day. Out of the bottom of Lake Ontario, 90 meters down, you pull 4 degrees Celsius water out of the lake and run it to

cool your miners. It's unbelievable the efficiency we're going to drive out of those mining machines. And it's a beautiful thing because those plants, you mine, you mine, you mine, you mine, you mine. Oh, the grid needs power? Switch to the grid. Similar in Texas, right? No, because we're off.

So we are behind the meter. We own the plants. And the grid needs power, switch to the grid. Similar in Texas, right? No, because we're behind the meter. We own the plants, okay? And the grid needs power. Dang. Bang. We hit the switch. So, Tim, a question on this, because I was talking to somebody. I was talking to Harry Sudok.

Okay, love him. Love him. He's great. He's awesome. And I love his super bassy, sultry voice also. Super what? Super bassy, sultry voice. He's got like perfect movie phone voice okay so

when you're when you're how much power percentage wise yes are you guys taking allocating towards bitcoin mining versus the grid we don't okay so it it's like a dial okay it really depends on the weather it's like oh my god all the air conditioners just flew on in southern Ontario. Like, it needs power. And by the way, it's, excuse me, the demand peak, or when you call peaking, the price goes up, up, up, up. Oh, no, I'm still mining Bitcoin. So, oh, now it's way more powerful to flip it to the grid. Bang, goes to the grid. You're actually pushing the grid,

which is the, like, really neutralizes the ESG thing all over again. It's perfect. Yeah, it over again. It's perfect. Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect. Because you're incentivized to make power now. It's like having a capacitor in a circle. It's so beautiful. As engineers, this stuff makes just so much sense.

And everyone gets scared of mathematics and the conservation of energy principles and everything that engineers grew up with. To Saylor's credit, I mean mean I'm sure that hit a nerve. It hit a nerve with me when he decided, you know, started describing it by the thermodynamics, first law of thermodynamics. Don't want to get too geeky with you guys, but as an engineer being able to stabilize the grid. That's what we're doing, stabilizing the grid. Because the grid is a very inefficient mechanism. You don't power up and down your hydro dams or your nuclear reactors.

So, you know, there's a place. I was on stage yesterday, right? I'm not sure if any of you guys saw it. I don't mind. But there's a Canadian politician that sent me a text after I was on stage. He goes, man, I loved what you said. We're friends. He has a nuclear reactor in his region casually has a nuclear

hey let me show you i said you're on bruce okay so his name is ben lob i mean you guys can figure it out ben lob huron bruce has a huge nuclear reactor in canada that nuclear reactor does not power up and down as the demand for electricity. There are times during the day we pay Americans. We pay Americans to take our power. Yeah. Damn. There's too much power for the throttle down.

The nuclear power, the reactor is still spinning. The steam is, you know, hey. Opportunity cost. He says to me, shouldn't we be mining Bitcoin rather than giving northern the northern peninsula of michigan money we give them money to take our power no offense to the oopers right but yeah it's about time you asked right that's the response yeah here's what it's getting through to the politicians i will just say so i traded junk bonds it's creating i thought that trading junk bonds was an inefficient market.

You should see the power market. It's a land full of buffoons. It really is. It's fucking crazy. And that's great. It's great. Because it allows for it to make it more efficient. Bitcoin doesn't compete with the energy we use here. No. It literally only buys wasted electricity.

Buddy, that's right. Absolutely. It's like, oh, it does. Excess electricity. Absolutely, 100%. That's what kind of blew my mind when I first learned about it. It took me years to kind. Buddy, that's right. It's like, oh, it does. Absolutely, absolutely, 100%. That's what kind of blew my mind when I first learned about it. It took me years to kind of wrap my head around it. But it took you years to wrap your head around that. Then at least we can give the politicians a little bit of... They're trying, though.

Right, because they're finally trying, but they're not going to just get it. It's a very easy soundbite to say, more power than the country of Argentina in a year. You have to step across domains that are outside of the one that you say more power than the country of Argentina in a year. You have to step across domains that are outside of the one that you're comfortable with or the one that you know really well. And if you know energy, this is how we do business, right? And whatever that weird magic internet money is that you guys are doing over there just doesn't really fit neatly into and being real obvious until you're like, Hey, I was paying Americans to take the internet.

Is that crazy? Of course you can. Not only can you do it, but you I was paying Americans to take the internet. Is that really? Of course you can. Not only can you do it, but you'll double your bottom line probably. But here's what people don't realize either. The Bitcoin blockchain is a ledger system. Bitcoin mining is just data validation. It's servers. That's all it is.

It's processing data. And if you look at what we do on our laptops all day, who here has Google and uses Google apps, Google spreadsheets? You're taking an online system that's being powered through a server, right? And those servers are less efficient for the functions that you're doing, each of us as individuals on a spreadsheet, okay? That does the same thing that a blockchain can do. So also, if you're using like AWS or any other kind of cloud computing server system, they're not incentivized to become more efficient because they sell their services in a way

that's not efficient. Yeah, absolutely. Isn't that great? The Bitcoin validation, those servers are incentivized to become more efficient because they're trying to mine the blocks and trying to do it as efficiently as possible. And they're also incentivized to use as little energy as possible. And that's it. So it's way more efficient than anything else.

And there's no creepy advertising and creepy tracking with Bitcoin mining. Exactly. I'm getting served ads on Google now for Bitcoin mining as we speak. Sorry, I'm the leak, man. They're following me through my Apple iPhone. You got the watch on. That stuff creeps me out, though.

That's true. They know everything. This is the thing, too. I think you were kind of saying it, that we can't really expect the politicians necessarily to craft the right legislation right out of the gate. Because even as Bitcoiners that are in it hard, you know what I mean? We have chips on the table way deeper than they do, right?

You guys have careers in Bitcoin, right? And so when there's a politician who has 20 things on their plate, you know, redistricting, taxes, school programs, school lunches, like, you know, women's sports, right? There's a lot of different things. Can we talk about women's sports? Clearly he had a boxing boxer against 12 year old be an amazing boxer against 12-year-old girls. You're about to get canceled, bro. I'm not posting. I heard you're very good at softball.

I'm actually a Venezuelan. I love you. Seriously, though, with that professionalization in the mainstream, as Bitcoin's growing, the politicians are actually paying more attention, right? So like last year, you had Warren Davidson and Cynthia Lummis here. This year, you have like the Prince of Serbia and like Lummis and Bukele was supposed to be here, but there's like national security issues and stuff like that. I didn't even know that. I thought that was a video game. And we have people from both sides of the aisle too, right?

So I'm meeting, I'm a conservative straight up. That's what it is. But I'm meeting with Democrats. I'm meeting with progressives. I'm meeting with independents because I'm there trying to explain Bitcoin to them

in super plain terms or to their staff so they can digest it. And it's actually happening because Bitcoin incentivizes the human nature which is to be self-protective. You look out for yourself. Bitcoin is Bitcoin mining. You're there to win. It's a competition. It's not a hand-holding contest. It's not a singing contest. You're there to win and Bitcoin is the best money and that's why Bitcoin is going to beat all these other fiat currencies. So in that sense, the politicians all have this opportunity to have this Constantine moment

where they see fiat on the deathbed or they see something bad, and they're like, oh, hey, we should probably just adopt Christianity in that sense. We need to adopt Bitcoin because otherwise we're going to get railroaded and all these other people are going to run. And imagine if all the really prominent Bitcoiners just decided to run for office in their district. Like, you know, like Fenton, like Bruce. Yeah, I love that. Bruce, yeah.

Wow. Now there's a guy. Yeah. Are you guys aware of it? Sorry to. No, please. There's a guy in Canada. I'm not sure if you guys are aware of him, Pierre Poitier.

Yeah, of course. So like he's, you know, he's. A lot of shawarma with bitcoin i mean oh yeah yeah ali uh my good friends yeah real tahinis like what a great story that i'm gonna let's jump to that ali's father was a math teacher imagine that in egypt and their entire family you know i'm going to say a good portion of their family wealth was basically confiscated and taken from them. Came to Canada, recreated their livelihood. And basically, Ali is a great friend of mine.

Pierre Poiliev is running on this mandate that Bitcoin will help things. And he's calling out that. I support Pierre, but I got to be careful. that Bitcoin will help things and he's calling out that. I support Pierre, but I gotta be careful. Jeff, he's a friend of Jeff Boos as well. Great Canadian. You guys have some really good Canadian Bitcoiners. We punch above our weight. There are.

I think we punch above our weight. I think you do, I think you do. Well, here's an interesting thing. So Wyoming, you mentioned Cynthia Lomas. A lot of great laws were passed in the state of Wyoming that were supportive of Bitcoin, including the, well, including even things around it, right? Like, you know, the Dow initiative. So a lot of people don't know this, but Tennessee is now the second state to get that. And that was led- Two days ago.

Two days ago, which was led by a Democrat in a Republican state, Jason Powell. He's a state representative, and he led that initiative. He got all the support of Republicans as a Democrat. Unanimously passed. Unanimously passed. In both houses. And this is going to happen because states now are going to FOMO in because they're not going to want to see their state lose the jurisdictional arbitrage that California is.

It's templated. Yeah, it's templated. And that's how we end up at the national level. The states are going to lead to see their state lose the jurisdictional arbitrage that California is. It's templated. Yeah, it's templated. And that's how we end up at the national level. The states are going to lead. No doubt. Yeah. No doubt. It's going to take time, but they're going to see the benefits in like Texas, Wyoming,

Tennessee, the states that are really leading this thing. That's where people want to go live and that's where they want to raise their kids and that's where they want to, you know, stick their Bitcoin minds. And that's a, you know, that's going to be a big advantage in the future. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to see it. We have to wrap it up.

So cheers to my empty bottle. Hey, cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

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Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Do it again soon. Loved it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you haven't already left a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please do that now. Spotify just added ratings,

so please go ahead and click that five star. I'll see you guys next time.