The Wolf Of All Streets - The Perfect Use Case For Crypto | James Altucher

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

James Altucher is an American hedge-fund manager, author of over 20 books, entrepreneur, and a stand-up comedian. In this episode, James presents his use case for crypto and NFTs and explains the best way to invest in crypto and any other asset. James is a fantastic speaker, don’t miss this episode! James Altucher: https://twitter.com/jaltucher ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen  GET UP TO A $8,000 BONUS IN USDT AND TRADE ALL SPOT PAIRS ON BITGET FOR ZERO FEES! ►► https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bitget   Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets   Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io  Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe  Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c  #Bitcoin #Crypto #Trading The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

From creating content for HBO to becoming a website designer and doing sites for American Express and Rappers like the Wu Tang clan becoming an angel investor writer prolific Podcaster James Altucher has basically seen it all now He's betting big on aetherium and the crypto space in this amazing conversation He offers a vision for tokenizing everything the likes of which you've never seen. Don't miss it. So James, we met the other day in the hallways of the casino upstairs and I was wearing a Wu-Tang t-shirt and you commented, Hey Wu-Tang, I did their website in the 1990s. Yeah. I said, wow, this guy's really, really interesting. So how did you go from designing websites for Wu Tang to where you are now? Well, it's actually a natural progression,

believe it or not. And, uh, you know, I was always interested in creating content, but I was trained as a computer scientist. This is back in the nineties. So when people started making websites in 1995, 96 in New York city, there was only like five people who knew how to make a website. So American express, they needed a website. For instance, they called their accounting firm, Arthur Anderson, now out of business. Arthur Anderson didn't know how to make a website. They called a major advertising agency like J Walter Thompson. They didn't know how to make a website. They called a major advertising agency like J. Walter Thompson. They didn't know how to make a website. They called a technology consulting firm. They didn't know how to make a website who called me.

And I called my brother-in-law and said, I'll do the software. You do design. And we made AmericanExpress.com. My salary at that time was $40,000 per year in New York City. I couldn't afford to live anywhere in New York City. And we got paid $250,000 to make an American express.com. And I'm like, Oh, this might be, I'm going to put content creation on the side for a second. Cause I was working at HBO and I loved creating content and, uh, uh, I'm going to make some websites and then get back to trying to make

a TV show, which was my real dream or writing a novel was my real dream. And so, but dreams sort of have a way of kind of going off course. And, uh, uh, we started making a lot of websites for content creators. So movie studios, uh, record labels in particular gangster rap record labels, because you know, and the way I look and everything. And so Loud Records, we did all their websites and they were, you know, managing the Wu-Tang Clan and made websites for Bad Boy Records, Loud Records, Death Row, Interscope, Jive. And then we did, you know, also movies for Miramax, Warner Brothers, New Line. And it was just a lot of fun. But the reason I was involved in that is because you could see, oh, the key to making money really is to be enthused about a vision. You have a vision that the world is going to change.

And because you have that vision, and it's very rare to have one of those, but you know, because science and technology is increasing so fast, there's, there's more opportunities than ever, but you know, you have a vision that, Oh, this is going to grow exponentially that nobody is using this now, but soon everybody will use this. And I never faltered in my belief of that, which is both good and bad because I'll get to the bad in a second. But so, so I was really obsessed with helping people make websites and also making websites for myself. Nobody knew, is this going to be a, uh, an e-commerce medium? Is this just going to be an, uh, an artistic medium? Is this going to be for companies a way to put their pamphlets online, like images of

their pamphlets online? Like nobody really knew how it was going to evolve, But we all knew we were going to be reading news on this eventually and talking to people eventually, you know, through it. And, and it was exciting. And similarly, you know, you could say the same thing about the rise of social media and the mid 00s to late 00s. And then you could see the same thing with crypto, like when you see something that's not only growing exponentially, but also something that everybody could be involved in. Like here's an example, genomics and gene editing is also growing exponentially, but you and I can't suddenly say, okay, well, we're going to be biogeneticists tomorrow and be a part of this. That's a different, you know, you have to get seven PhDs, but crypto is something we can all kind of have our piece of this pie and be involved in it and grow with it. And it's certainly growing exponentially, maybe in a way

that's much larger than the internet. Now, the downside you can see with the internet and crypto, which is that, oh, in 2001, I'm going to go, I made some money, so I'm going to go all in buying every internet stock I can buy. And then they all crashed because whatever goes up goes down until it kind of stabilizes and obviously we see the same thing with crypto as well so you have to you have to have a sense of risk but that is a long answer to your question yeah if you've been following me for the last few months then you definitely know that I've been trading and investing on BitGet now listen it took me six months to decide that they were going to be the sponsor for the newsletter but once I saw their me six months to decide that they were going to be the

sponsor for the newsletter. But once I saw their partnership with Juventus, that they were the world's leading copy trading platform in crypto, and also that they're a top five exchange by volume, well, I was sold and I was convinced. I've been using it ever since to dollar cost average and to invest in Bitcoin. You can also trade there with leverage, but of course, be careful if you're going to do that. And I don't know if you saw the recent news, but they've also done a deal with Lionel Messi. Now you can get up to an $8,000 bonus using my link below, and you can trade spot with absolutely no fees. You also get a 15% discount on trading leverage. Go ahead and sign up right now using the wolf of all streets

dot info slash BitGet. Claim that huge reward and use the world's best trading platform. I love the corollary. People often give the comparison between the current crypto market or even the crypto market that's just popped to some degree to the dot com bubble, as you said. And usually pundits sort of see it as a negative, right? Maybe people bought the top, they lost their money. These companies went out of business. I've always viewed it as a positive because out of that dot-com bubble came the biggest and most important and powerful tech companies in the world. Yeah. And, and, you know, you can't, you can't associate financial values with usage. I mean, look, you know, in, in the 1850s,

the train bubble popped, right? They were laying down railroad tracks all across the country. Train companies were starting. They were going to be the biggest thing on the planet. Like they were going to basically take stuff from the West Coast and East Coast back and forth. It's amazing because people used to be killed making that journey. And, you know, now it's going to be on a train. But the stocks for these companies crashed and never came back. And so then the next wave of companies came out and were more mature and so on.

And we saw that with the dot-com bubble. We're seeing that now with crypto that the survivors will survive. And look, Amazon crashed in 2001, 2002, and now it's one of the most valuable companies or the most valuable company on the planet. So that happens in when when visions change the world, because back in 2001, I had a partner who I had a Defender arcade machine in my office and we were playing. He lost and he suddenly he was just so angry that he lost. He like punched the screen

and smashed it. And then he took it, this internet thing is a goddamn fad. And he walked out and I never saw him again. And so it's the same thing like right now, people get, you know, they put their financial hopes on something, but then they get disappointed. But meanwhile, the ecosystem moves on. Like crypto is going to continue to build. There's more transactions per second now on crypto than ever before. So, you know, the ecosystem and not everybody who buys crypto is our speculators, unlike buyers of Internet stocks, I might add. Like if you bought Amazon.com shares, it doesn't mean you could suddenly use Amazon. But one of the reasons to buy Ethereum is not just to speculate, but because you're actually using Ethereum. So that makes crypto very different and ultimately actually a lot more stable in the long run than Internet stocks.

It also means that Ethereum should not be deemed a security because it actually has utility and people are using it for transacting. Yeah. And people are using Ethereum to make other securities. Like, again, the global financial ecosystem is going to change in part because Ethereum is part of those picks and shovels to make a change. I agree. So putting on your investor hat and having been through that bubble and obviously a few cycles here in crypto, how does the average person pick a winner after we have this flush out? Well, that's a great question because there's obviously a lot of answers and I just want, and there's some caveats before that. This is, I've learned these caveats because again, I built a company in the nineties making websites and I sold it. I cashed out. I was smart. I said, oh, this, the industry of building websites is going away. So I cashed out and, um, but then I

lost millions of dollars by plowing it back into internet stocks. So I went broke. I lost a home, lost a family to some extent. We all know that there is wealth in investing and there's wealth in entrepreneurship and there's wealth in being an angel investor. But the key to winning the game is to stay in the game. And so you have to always think about 1% of the job of picking a winner is picking the winner. 99% of the job is de-risking now the winner and de-risking your approach to investing. So this is true, by the way, for investing. It's true for poker. It's true for almost, it's true for marriage. It's true. It's great to pick someone you're going to be in love with for the rest of your life. But then how do you take out, remove all the risks? So you really are confident in that.

And so I just want to mention that as a caveat. But look, right now, depending on what type of investor you are, I think it's pretty clear that we know what the blue chip cryptos are that are going to be here forever, which is Bitcoin and Ethereum. And to de-risk even further, I could probably list more use cases for Ethereum than for Bitcoin. So for me personally, the blue chip crypto is Ethereum because again, I think Ethereum is the dream of Bitcoin coming true. Like Bitcoin and the Lightning Network would have loved to have been the platform for smart contracts, but Ethereum actually made it a lot easier and they did it.

And now with the merge, it's even more eco-friendly. And then the verge or the surge or whatever is the next step, they're going to have many more transactions per second so they can actually be a payment system. So I think Ethereum, if your goal is, hey, I want to ride this revolution, I don't need to pick the tiny guys who are going to grow even faster. I just want good, solid blue chip, the Amazon of the space. That's probably Ethereum. Now, if you want to go to the next level and look, if Ethereum goes up 10,000%, but you want

something that goes up a million percent, there's a lot of smaller tokens that are going to be the picks and shovels of this new financial ecosystem, which, by the way, has not even been created yet. Like the real everyone asks, well, what's the use case of Bitcoin? I don't believe there's no use cases. I could just write software to do all the use cases. The real world use cases are going to be so big, but they haven't started yet because the ecosystem is still being built. And those picks and shovels, they're often, they're Ethereum based and they're smaller tokens. So there's a bunch of those that

I think are good picks. But again, the good safe blue chip pick that will rise, maybe not rise as much as some of the smaller ones, I think is Ethereum. Bullish on Bitcoin too, but I don't own any. I recently sold all of my Bitcoin to own Ethereum, more Ethereum, because that's the blue chip I believe in. And I also own smaller tokens. Yeah, I generally believe in the two as well. I am a bit more diversified between the two of them, but I completely agree with your assessment there. And I like the approach of picks and shovels. And you can even argue that just buying Bitcoin, Ethereum, and a few of the other layer ones gives you that infrastructural investment without having to choose the winners of what's built. Maybe Solana wins for

GameFi and maybe Avalanche wins for NFTs and maybe Ethereum becomes the DeFi platform. And by owning all of those, you don't need to figure out what those dApps that are going to win are, but you just own the infrastructure. I mean, there's a great concept in if a technology is growing exponentially, it's like you just said, you don't have to overthink every single pick. So I'll give you an example. We've known since Gordon Moore's law said back in the late sixties, uh, computer technology will, will, you know, double in power every 18 months. And that has happened since 1970 to this point 50 years later. So let's say in 1970, you were going to put $1,000 into the first 100 computer technology companies that went public.

That's it. Just $1,000 in the first 100 companies that go public, and then you would stop investing forever. Let's just, again, hypothetically say 98 of those first computer companies, let's say they all went bankrupt and two of them, Intel and Microsoft, succeeded. So you lost 98,000 of the $100,000. You have $2,000 that you put into Intel and Microsoft. You would have $3.5 million today. That's the benefit of being in an exponential technology close to the beginning. And that's the benefit of being in an exponential technology close to the beginning. And that's the benefit of just being as diversified as possible. You

could have almost all failures and you'll still make millions. Now you could say, well, inflation, well, that $2,000 would be $14,000 with inflation or three and a half million with Intel and Microsoft. The same thing happened on the internet. The same thing is going to happen with crypto. I think you just described the spray and pray mentality of venture capital in tech in general, and certainly in cryptos. Basically, you can pick 10 things randomly, nine of them are losers, and the 10th one pays for all the losses and makes a profit. The caveat being, though, that you had to hold it. The caveat being that you had to hold it, but that's why invest a little bit. That's why don't go crazy, because if something grows exponentially, you're going to own the world if it's exponential enough and you hold it long enough.

So Mark Yusko, who is obviously at this conference, one of my favorite people that I constantly have on, always tells me the story repeatedly about Amazon, that who still owns stock from IPO Amazon? It's Jeff Bezos, his wife and their parents. And that's literally it. Everybody else gave up at some point when there was a 95% drawdown or a 75% drawdown, or this is just a book company and it's not going to make it. So how do you maintain the conviction to actually see the massive gain through? Because most people sell long before that happens. Pretend that they're private companies, like pretend that they're not public, pretend that you can't see the share price. Be a believer in the industry.

Again, let's take genomics. Genomics, 20 years ago, and I know this is about crypto, not genomics. I'm just using this as an example of a exponential industry that we can't possibly understand, but we know the math. So 20 years ago,

it cost a billion dollars to sequence the human genome. Now it costs $1 so that we know the math it's exponential. So now you, you could literally just buy all the public genomics companies and your pro and then never look at them again. So what would it take for you to never look at them again? Well, let's say your net worth, I'm just making numbers up. Let's say it's a hundred thousand dollars. Take $5,000, put $50, $100, whatever in 50, 10, 20 genomics companies, and then never look at them again. Like just don't look at your portfolio, put it in a different bank. If you look at your portfolio every day, pretend they're private companies. Now, one way that this is different than the VC model is that VCs take risks before companies are mature enough to go public. But

wait for a company to go public. You don't have to buy the lowest price in an exponentially growing industry. You could buy the middle price. Ethereum was $140 a few years ago. Heck, it's a buy at $1,300. It's a buy at $5,000. It's a buy at $10,000. Who knows? So again, you just never look at it again. And really, it's about managing risk. So then if you wanted to own Ethereum and you believe it's going to be a $10,000, $15,000, $25,000, $30,000 asset, which I do as well, do you just plow in all the money that you have waiting on the sidelines now?

Or do you dollar cost average and just continue to do that over time? And as you said, put it aside and forget about it. For me or do you dollar cost average and just continue to do that over time and as you said put it aside and forget about it for me personally i dollar cost average uh but also i don't just buy ethereum ethereum's blue chip so you can oh you could own a little more of that than other things but in terms of the alt coins that i think are picks and shovels that's more of uh i'm i'm in them i have no idea what price i'm in them at i'm never going to look at them again and we'll see you know in years you know how how idea what price I'm in them at. I'm never going to look at them again. And we'll see, you know, in years, you know, how it does. Like I'm aware of my Ethereum holdings, which is a little bit bigger, not as diversified, but because that I think is the driver of the ecosystem. But, you know, again, for all the other stuff, it's just I don't even think about it.

There are a lot of things being built on Ethereum and in the crypto space in general, and we've seen them each have their sort of small bubble growth and pop. Of course, I say it over and over again, DeFi summer, NFT summer, metaverse fall, et cetera. Are there any of those that you're particularly excited about beyond just holding Ethereum? Do you think that there's any really killer use cases for crypto that will win or even any that you think are nonsense and won't. Yeah, both. So I'll start with the use cases that are going to win. And again, again, I'm going to go back to the internet metaphor for a second. When did you first feel really comfortable putting your credit card information, your personal information, things like that on the internet? Like roughly what year do you think?

For me, I got hacked so many times in the early days and had people steal my identity when I signed up for an American express card. And, uh, and so it was probably until the like 2010s or 2011s before, or even actually later before I felt comfortable doing it. Okay. And that's reasonable. So I would say for me, it was around 2005. So he's like when Facebook was starting and all this. And then I was thinking, what else was happening in 2005? Like, cause I spoke to a lot of people and people have told me like 2010, a lot of people were telling me 2005. And I thought that was an, the year kept coming up enough that I looked into it. What was happening in 2005? Well, 2005 was the year the internet hit a billion users worldwide. So it took a billion

users for, I think, people to stop smashing windows and saying, this thing's a fad. Now, you look at crypto, crypto's probably got, I read somewhere it's got 300 million users. I don't really believe that. No chance. Yeah, no chance. So who knows how much it has? Tens of millions, 50 million, 100 million. I don't know. And, you know, worldwide. And let's say it takes a few years. I think crypto is obviously going faster than the Internet usage grew. So let's just say it takes a few years for a billion users. And that's when I think we really will see the real world use cases. Because, again, think about Facebook. You couldn't make a big social network in 1998.

Everyone was excited about the internet. GeoCities was a social network, got bought for a billion dollars by, I guess, Yahoo. But it was worthless because there wasn't the billion users yet. And so here's where I think the real world use cases are going to happen is that, I'll keep with the internet metaphor.

The internet allowed you and I to talk to each other. You might have been using an IBM PC on some weird network in your company. And I might have been using a Mac hooked up to a modem to my phone network in my home. And yet you and I and our computers really could communicate with each other. And now our thermometer can communicate with that. Our smartphone, our car, all these things can now communicate on the internet, no matter what device they are and what network they come from. Crypto is the internet of value. So everything of anything that possibly has monetary value can be traded or communicate with anything else of value.

So to describe what currently exists and why that's different, it's that's not the case now. And that's never existed in history. So right now, the only way, for instance, I can buy value in McDonald's company, like I could buy McDonald's shares, is Monday morning at 9.30 a.m., I could wait for the New York Stock Exchange to open up, open up my account, and then pay a million fees and buy some McDonald's shares. And at 4.30 p.m. in the afternoon, that stops. Crypto could be traded 24-7 on any DeFi exchange. There's hundreds of DeFi exchanges out there, and you could trade any crypto for any other crypto. And so what else has value, though, other than shares of McDonald's or shares of Apple? Well, for instance, let's take Uber as an example. Uber, for all we know, Uber is a horrible company. Like for the

past 15 years, venture capitalists have been paying for part of all of your rides on Uber. Uber's never made money. So the VCs who funded Uber have paid for a good 40 or 50% of every single ride you took on Uber. And the only way Uber can make money is either pay the drivers less or charge more for the rides, which is very hard for them. They can't do it. So what if Uber created Uber coin? And so Uber coin is the more I ride, the more Uber coins I get, the more I drive, the more Uber coins I get. And those Uber coins could be used to pay for future rides or a discount on future rides. So I can borrow, if I'm Uber, I could borrow from future profits to do marketing and customer retention now by creating my own little financial ecosystem, my own currency, my ecosystem.

Every company on the planet is going to do that. Everything that has something of value is going to make their own micro currency for customer attention and borrowing from future profits. And what does that do? Well, well then that sounds like frequent flyer miles, but it isn't because now I can trade. Let's say I never want to ride Uber again. I could trade with you my on a defy exchange, my Uber coin for a piece of your house or shares of McDonald's. Or let's say some student graduates college, they could tokenize 10% of their future cash flows from their jobs for the next 20 years. And I could research this person, I could buy those coins. And that's uncorrelated to the stock market or whatever. Investors love the fact that there's going to be more asset classes out there, thousands more asset classes, and they're all

tradable with each other. Again, anything of, I could take an art collection, tokenize 10% of it, start trading it on a DeFi exchange. And things we can't even imagine now are going to be monetized by tokenizing the value. And it should be easy to understand value. And then making it available and liquid to trade on a DeFi exchange. So that creates literally, you know, there's right now there's about a little more than a quadrillion dollars of financial assets on the planet. Multiply that by 10. And that's the crypto opportunity. That's the real world use case, which nobody has even approached yet, because it's like setting up a social network

in 1996. There's just not enough users. So right now, the picks and shovels that are building the ecosystem for that, and that's straight where the ecosystem is heading, that's where you're going to see all the real world use cases. And that's where it's going to be phenomenal, phenomenally large. Everyone's going to say, boy, I wish I bought all these tokens beforehand. That was a hell of a pitch for crypto. I feel like we should just, maybe we should tokenize that and go distribute it. I love the 300 million number, right? And people like to use that as comparable to the growth of the internet, which I do think is happening in crypto and agree with everything you said, but that's probably 300 million people who have at some point bought or sold some coin in a very small amount. And to me, that's not the same as a user, right? So how many people,

maybe we have a couple million people who are actively using it. I've seen some pretty astounding stats like at how dead DeFi really is right now that, you know, Uniswap volume three has a couple hundred people a day that are actually using it. So then the question becomes with that promise and that incredible vision that you just presented, how do we actually get there and have people truly adopt this? Not just buy it speculatively and buy meme coins and buy a picture NFTs, but actually start to use this to replace the systems that they're currently using. Well, right now it's hard to buy a Bitcoin. Let's just start with there. Like my grandma cannot buy a Bitcoin. Okay. She's dead. But if she weren't, it would be, she would never think to herself, Oh, I'm going to like get

MetaMask and install it here. And like, go to you. I'm going to go to pancake swap instead of the New York stock exchange and buy like a Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever. She would never even figure it out. And that's, and that's, you know, I'm saying grandma, cause like an older person, well, I could go, if I could look at my neighbor to the left and my neighbor to the right, wherever I live, and they probably none of them have ever bought a Bitcoin and they can't figure it out because it's hard. So the first thing is they're going to have to make it easier. And yes, there are, it's going to get easier. Back in, back in, I think it was 1992. I remember everybody in, you know, the internet was for academics and the web was only maybe a

year old, but so people were using the internet and something called Usenet for news newsletter groups, uh, news groups and AOL opened up the floodgates. They let their users use the Usenet on the internet. And everyone was like, Oh my God, we can't left the, the riff. We can't let the riff raff use our internet. And, uh, it's the same thing happening now. We're going to have to get rid of the the lingo like hodling and all this stuff we're gonna have to get rid of a kind of the the feeling oh we're special because we're crypto and just make it easy for grandma and grandpa to to buy a bitcoin that's the first thing then we have to make sure they understand well if i don't understand you mean i can't transfer my bitcoin over here because it's a different blockchain.

And if I try to transfer it, I might lose it. Forget it. Like we got to make all this cross chain communications a lot easier. We got to make off chain information, get onto the blockchains a lot easier. So there's so many like problems. By the way, every problem is a business opportunity, but there are so many problems. And a lot of them are being solved now with some of these new picks and shovels coins. Like how do you get off-chain information onto the blockchain?

There are tokens for this. How do you get decentralized computing easy to use? There's tokens for this. So a lot of things are being built, but they're just beginning. And so, look, in terms of doing due diligence on them, oh, do they have deals with bigger distribution partners? Do they have good developers who developed other successful projects before? Do they have use cases even now that they're working on right now? Like, I'm not recommending this coin, but like, I'm just thinking of an example, like Render, R-N-D-R.

They have a, I don't know, don't quote me, but i think they have a deal with sony i think they have a deal with disney they help uh users render uh uh videos they do the video processing much faster which is a very hard thing to do and they use decentralized computing to do it i'm not recommending this coin but i'm just using that as an example like that that basic due diligence covers that coin like okay they have they they're legit. They have users. They have companies that back them. We still need the real world to back some of these new visions. And so we're going to see more and more of that,

but it's going to take time. I use grandma as the example all the time. It's like the classic cryptos. My grandmother would never use this, but there's a sort of inevitability about that as well because even if grandma never does use it, my kids who were three and seven are never going to live in a world without Bitcoin or DeFi or Ethereum. So it feels like there's an inevitability where just the changing of the guard, where this generation ages into it, that they're native to it. And so it doesn't need to be explained.

I agree that it has to become much more simple, but that will be the case by the time they're teenagers. Oh yeah, sure. That's I'm saying the simplicity is not a, I mean, the fact that it's difficult now is not a long-term problem. It's just the problem right now, but that creates the business opportunities. And there are so many people involved in the entrepreneurship around crypto. All of these problems are being solved right now. It's just, they've got to be solved. So, you know, and you mentioned like, what's an area where I don't like, well, let's just take, and it's a popular space. I'm not going to trash the space completely, but the NFT space, I don't need to buy an NFT of a JPEG. I'll just steal the JPEG if I want. Right. So, uh, and, and it might be against like, you know, other people's views of the NFT space. But the NFT space also is incredibly valuable.

So let's say I'm the owner of a sports team, the New York Giants, whatever. And I sell you a ticket and you sell a ticket to your friend and your friend sells a ticket to a scalper and the scalper sells the ticket to someone on the street. Well, the New York Giants only made the money when they sold the ticket to you. But now if the tickets were NFTs, every, you know, tertiary and fourth transaction, every transaction that happens after, they get a fee. So that's a real benefit of NFTs is that NFTs, don't think of them as a collectible. Think of them as an NFT provides access to something. And there's always a relationship to the original creator to the end buyers. So whether it's a money relationship or access relationship. So NFTs have an incredible use case. And I even spoke to

at least two owners of sports teams and said, would you ever change your tickets to all NFTs? And they said, are you reading our email? Like we're building companies for this right now. So again, problem and they're solving it. And that's going to make NFTs incredibly useful and on and on. I mean, the entire vision that you painted earlier is all based on NFTs. It's just not based on that first mainstream use case, which was profile pictures and cartoons. Like NFTs, the concept of NFTs, again, goes back to the Internet of Value. They are valuable and access is valuable. So like right now, I could buy a subscription to something and I can't get rid of this subscription.

If I stop reading this publication that I subscribe to, all right, I'm out my money. But what if I can sell the, if it's an NFT, I could sell my subscription to someone else on a DeFi exchange. It has value. It's the value of the subscription. I could sell it on a DeFi exchange. That's NFT driven and it's, it's incredibly valuable. It's going to be the only way we have access to anything in the future, your hotel key will be an NFT at some point. So all of these things that are being worked on have value. I see a lot of people trashing, oh, the NFT is just a collection. Forget about today's use cases. In 1994, we all thought, oh, the internet, hypertext, it's going to be a new way to write three-dimensional books.

It became a lot bigger than that. So we don't even know what the real use cases are. We just know, like you said, our kids will be using it and all the problems will be solved by then as well, you know, along the way. I would argue that we'll know that we've gone mainstream and that we've won when we never use the term NFT again. Exactly. I agree with you. It's like, it's like the word cyber, you know, or or E, the letter E, you know, E flowers, you know, E pets dot com. Like it's all these again. Again, it's when it's the inside game lingo that has to go away when the public's using it. I mean, you know, again, it's just going to be, hey, I need to use this currency versus this currency. I'm going to trade this on this exchange. And maybe there'll be like one mega exchange, which is like a bridge to all the other exchanges. There's going to be lots of business

opportunities. It's never going to be too late in the next, at least for the next 30 years to start a crypto related business because so many problems have to be solved. But it's not like they all have to be solved for this to be a working financial ecosystem. We're going to get there pretty fast, but it's just going to create more opportunities and more problems and then more opportunities on top of that. And it's very exciting. Like it's, our kids are going to live

in a very exciting world. We're going to live in a very exciting world in five years. They'll even live in a more exciting world. So, cause they're going to live forever too because of genomics. So. Well, I look forward to my kids trying to explain to me how to move my NFTs

when I'm grandma and grandpa, myself, obviously. Yeah. You painted an incredible vision. I love how enthusiastically you speak about the space and I hope that everybody else does as well. And I can't wait to bring you back and then we can see how far we've gone. Yeah. Anytime. Be happy to come back. Thanks for having me on the show. Thank you so much. Much appreciated.