The Wolf Of All Streets - These 4 Ideas Are Driving Crypto Adoption | Matthew Roszak, Bloq

Episode Date: August 28, 2022

Matthew Roszak, Co-Founder of Bloq, talks about his Four Pillars of Generational Shift, the ideas driving the adoption of crypto: Tokenization, Financialization, Coordination, and Automation. He’ll tell us what those are, how to take advantage of them, and what they mean for the future of finance. Matthew also shares his thoughts on the recent downturn, why he thinks now is the time to buy, and what recent developments excite him. Matthew is one of the greatest minds in the crypto space and this interview is one of his best - a can’t miss. JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER 📩 https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen EPISODE LINKS Matthew’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/matthewroszak Bloq’s Website: https://www.bloq.com/ Production & Marketing Team: https://penname.co/ FOLLOW SCOTT MELKER • Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets • Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io • Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe • Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3FASB2c Show Notes: 00:15 Matthew Roszak Intro 00:50 4 Pillars of Generational Shift 08:49 Risk Appetites in Crypto 15:40 Is Now the Time to Buy? 18:13 Exciting Developments 22:20 DeFi and TradFi 24:50 Staking Yields 26:40 Innovation and Regulation in the U.S. 31:30 International Adoption

Matthew Rozak from Block recently came on one of my live streams and absolutely blew everyone's minds talking about the four pillars of generational shift. He dove much deeper into those here and almost everything else you can possibly imagine. He's an absolutely brilliant mind and this is a conversation that you definitely want to tune in for. So last time we spoke on one of my live streams. That was cool. You had everybody silent and watching as if you were the great professor and that included Scaramucci and Mark Yusko. Mark's a great guy. And you made a point that I can't recall exactly. It was the four pillars of generational shift basically. And it was very specifically regarded. I remember tokenization being one, but I'll let you go. Yeah. I mean, I did a podcast. I did a TED Talk, The Tokenization of Things in 2017.

And I had to come up with a theme for this TED Talk. And I was seeing Bitcoin, Ethereum, Ethereum killers, and all these permutations of tokenization. And that was in flight. And then, like, where does it go from there? And it's like tokenization, both digital assets and real world assets. So your house, your car, artwork, all that stuff. Obviously, we're seeing that come into focus on getting tokenized. And then it's like, OK, so what? So I have a bunch of tokenized assets. What can I do with this?

And then it unlocks this potential for financial financialization like what does that mean and again tokenization financialization coordination and automation kind of those four pillars and the financialization is is kind of cool because we saw that with d5 summer and now kind of the d5 primitive saying okay i've got these tokenized assets and now how uh can I create liquidity or borrow against these, hedge against these? And there's this notion of keep your crypto always on a treadmill. You know, it's always working for you while you're sleeping or whatever. It's kind of automated. And I have a bunch of ETH that ETH is yielding or I'm staking that ETH and I'm validating and kind of participating in these networks, it's always running and gunning for

you for that. So that financialization piece through DeFi is starting to come into focus and we're still early. The coordination piece is kind of like what's kind of front and center now, all these DAOs that are sprouting up, developing, coordinating. And then you have this whole VC section of DAO tooling. It's like, okay, we're a community, we're a group. How do we make decisions on governance? How do we communicate? How do we pay vendors?

How do we do all these things as a cooperative? It's like you think back of Ace Hardware or Lando Lakes or all the, you know, cooperatives we grew up with, like people getting together, we could buy stuff cheaper, we could sell stuff better. So the power of the crowd, these communities, these cooperatives, you know, having like a digital underpinning to them and having kind of coordinated efforts and coordinated benefit off the stuff that they do is like a really big deal. Later today, I'm talking about Wall Street bets, which is kind of, you know, a lot of Wall Street people kind of dismiss it. It's kind of like a whatever. It's one of the most important things that has happened on wall street and and i would say this angle of tech this human coordination technology thing that's going on which is like you know it's it's on the level of like the gutenberg press i know that sounds kind of preposterous to say

at the same time um you know having uh all these things intersect at the right time between, you know, collaboration tools, whether it's Twitter, WhatsApp, Messenger tools, having Reddit, other kind of collaboration tools, sharing data, being able to punch a button on Robin Hood. All these things kind of came together at kind of the right time in the right way. Because, you know, Scott, if you and I were thinking about Uber 20 years ago, we'd be out of luck. Didn't have the phone. Didn't have, you know, iOS and iPhone wasn't there, you know, commercial grade GPS, payment processing, all those, you know, 100 layers that made Uber, Uber

kind of were at the right time when it kind of launched. Same thing for Wall Street Bets. All those coordination dynamics kind of came. Same thing for Wall Street Bets. All those coordination dynamics kind of came together in this magical way. And the real takeaway of that is like now this group could coordinate, could communicate, and could take action, which is kind of like a big deal in terms of saying like this company needs saving. Let's coordinate and save GameStop or AMC or whatever hurts. Or this company is a bad actor. Like, you know, ExxonMobil has been dripping oil into the ocean for quite some time. Let's figure out a way as a collective to say, let's point this out.

Let's stress test this company to do better. And some of it's like kind of, you know, making money, changing the world and having fun. And so some of that on Wall Street Bets, you couldn't tell which was which at certain times, but the power that they yielded in that moment in those ways was pretty significant. And so these, again, this coordination in code, in governance, and kind of decision-making is going to be very powerful as these communities get bigger, as these problems get more complicated. There's going to be this action-reaction piece that's, I think, going to be more timely, more powerful than ever before. So, like, these groups of individuals or communities, et cetera, are now going to wield a lot of power. And that's going to be interesting because it's like, you know, we're always like talking about, you know, growing up like, oh, vote with your wallet and stuff. Well, like that dynamic gets really powerful in the future of voting with your crypto wallet. And if a billion people like something for a nickel,

or a dime, or a dollar, it moves markets, it moves agendas, and it kind of impacts the world. MARK BLYTH, Voting with your wallet works really well when there's a million of you doing it at the same time. CHRISTOPHER PICCIOLINI, Yeah. And if you scale that, it gets really powerful. Again, the nickel concept or the dollar concept,

the money gets silly and the impact gets profound. So again, tokenization, financialization, coordination, which is kind of like a lot of the heat map of crypto is focused on now, these DAOs, the tooling and the kind of underpinnings of that, and then ultimately gets into this automation of things. And so humans are kind of trading crypto and it's not really meant for humans. It's more meant for machines, machine-to-machine payments and kind of automation. So again, like that example, the financialization,

when you kind of put your crypto on a treadmill and forget about it, AI will also help with your decision support based on like, you know, what's your risk appetite, all these other things, and then like kind of create the best thing you can think of with those parameters and stuff that you couldn't research or could do on your own. And it just kind of feeds that to you. So I think that's going to be another interesting piece to say like, oh, I have 10 grand, put it and achieve

the best yield based on my risk profile. Today, DeFi, you know, degenerates are just like aping in, short-ranking by yield, not caring about the risk. But if like, you know, I said, well, I want some kind of risk assessment to it, make sure this stuff has been around for a while or tested or whatever. And so all that stuff, I think through AI, machine to machine stuff gets kind of puts the whole crypto dynamic into an exponential kind of curve, you know, IoT and that whole dynamic gets pretty exciting. So those are kind of the four ways that we sometimes think about this whole tokenization continuum because, you know, anything that can be tokenized will be tokenized. Anything that can be decentralized will be decentralized.

And I think we're, again, still early on this arc, but it's no longer a question of, like, is this going to happen? This is absolutely happening. The risk piece is really interesting because you imply that obviously there's these people who are aping in, taking these tremendous risks. But we've seen recent examples of people who believe they were doing things that were not risky to be on that automated treadmill, lose everything. Yeah. Yeah. And we saw that in full focus on Luna, right? And a couple of examples, like my company Block built a DeFi platform called Vesper. And when we, the kind of design

inputs to Vesper were based on, you know, a couple of years ago, the DeFi summer was, you know, unaudited smart contracts, unknown teams, no documentation, terrible UI, UX, all these things that kind of almost, you know, made you allergic to even, you know, getting on these sites. So we took that as an input to say, okay, let's have a known team, full documentation, two external audits on every contract, you know, beautiful UI, UX, and really just change that whole thing around. And on top of that, start to stratify some of the pools and the yield by conservative or aggressive. And, you know, what we learned through that is like people really didn't care about the conservative, even though from a risk standpoint, and what does that mean?

It means like, you know, when you typically do in a pool and you go deposit ETH, earn more ETH, you know, you open up that treadmill. And what happens is that ETH, you know, goes to Maker, Maker creates DAI, the DAI goes to a lending market, the lending market earns a yield. That yield is then put through like a Uniswap and back to more ETH. So that's the food chain of deposit ETH, earn more ETH, you know, pretty much in DeFi. But those modules sometimes go into other lending markets that, you know, haven't been around long enough, like a Compound or an Aave or, you know, a Maker and a DAI component and are a lot more, are a lot newer, a lot riskier, trying to reward for that risk. But then it just creates a more aggressive approach to get that yield. And so we thought, OK, so that's aggressive.

Like the wall clock time of that DeFi primitive not being around so long. Maybe it's not audited or whatever. So that's definitely aggressive versus conservative. But what you learn is that a lot of times people just plow in and sort rank by yield. They don't care if it's conservative. They don't care if it's aggressive. They just want the bigger number. And if you think about it, somebody has MetaMask. Somebody has crypto.

They're going on a DeFi website. So the conservatism has gone at the door. They're already there. They're so far down the risk curve that they're only there for one reason. Yeah. And I think that stratification of risk and DeFi and some of these things will come into focus as more market participants come in, institutions, retail, pension funds, all this stuff will be of consequence. Today, it's like early adopters. So they're just like, okay, just give me the best, right?

Yeah. You didn't get there for 3% yield. Yeah. You're not down that curve, going down that rabbit hole, going through all of those platforms just for that. And which is interesting because you get this idea

that all of these average retail people lost all of this money, but they're not quite average retail people, right? I mean, they had to have assumed some sort of understanding. They had to get there. You had to get to Anchor and have UST and Park for 20% risk. I'm not saying it's not extremely sad, but this isn't like your average fireman who put his pension. Exactly. No, no, exactly. And then just on Anchor and Luna, you know, two weeks prior to that crash, you know, people that I know, like, respect hedge funds out of Singapore and elsewhere were like, yeah, we're talking about a deal. And they're like saying, well, you know, it's, it's, that's kind of a risky deal. It might as well just park

it and anchor and earn 20%. That was the, two weeks before the blowups, you know, sophisticated people still felt that way, which is, which is fascinating. But, you know, you take the, the giant kind of macro view of this through, through a much, through a much broader lens, 30,000 foot lens. These are real money experiments. So we're testing these chutes and ladders with real money. And while Luna was catastrophic and it hurt a lot of people and some know some some people that was their first kind of stable coin um exposure and and you know they're yeah yeah yeah you have to you have to redefine stable coin exactly uh so that's going to get redefined like you know stable coins like you

know asterisk what do you mean uh but you see um uh all these uh tests all these dynamics are really important to get to the final frontier, which is like these are trillion dollar networks and, you know, losing 60 billion, 50 billion, 40 billion on Terra and Luna is of consequence. But trillion dollar networks, if you think about the cost to get that developed and get all the kinks out, this is part of that continuum. And it's an expensive continuum. But it's necessary to get where we need to get to. That's what I love when people who are new to trading and they lose, their justification is, it's just like my education. It's the education that I paid for. It's just that on a much grander scale yeah yeah um but you know you're doing it now as a collective of you know lots of people uh and so you know obviously the um you know some of

the stuff should be a little bit more like traditional software where you have stop gaps and you have circuit breakers along the way and you're able to kind of you know at this stage stop the music in certain instances uh before you know ultimately you get into these autonomous networks and autonomous systems where it's like the code is set it's not going to change and those will be the most valuable networks in crypto is the autonomous ones that are unchangeable uh you know forever and you know, forever. And you know, it just works and does a certain thing all the time. Isn't that risky, though, that you think maybe perhaps it works and you've stress tested, you believe that that's going to be the case.

And then someday, even three, four years down the road, there's a black swan and all of a sudden that unchangeable autonomous layer breaks. Yeah, no, it needs to get pressure tested. Pretty scary. And add some time elements to it. But this is what the new rails of finance and payments and everything need for us to get there. What are you most excited about that's happening right now? It seems like there's a sort of just diminished optimism at the moment because of price, right? You get in a bear market and all of a sudden it's like all the things everybody was excited about are dead.

But what are you looking at that you think is going to be monumental? Yeah, I mean, I've been through a bunch of these cycles. And the only thing I could remind myself from the last cycle, and it's nice to get a breather, to be honest, you know, in this cycle. Not great to see these prices where they're at, but it's nice to get a breather. And going through these cycles, the only thing I, you know, my regret analysis, if I could go back in time or back a couple cycles, is to buy more, build more, do more, and just, you know, double, triple down. Because, you know, it's like it's like this weird, we talked about this in

our last chat, there's like every time the market goes up, there's like almost this Darwinian hand that yanks you back to test you if you're in this thing for the long term. Because if you're in the short term, you're toast. You're done. If you're in the long term, you're kind of like, OK, this kind of sucks. But I got to withstand to get to the next, you know, cycle here and everything's going to be OK. I mean, historically speaking, that's kind of been the trend. So if you withstand that, you're going to do extremely well in this space. And that means, you know, even buying Bitcoin at sixty nine thousand. That's like, again, just hang on. You know, it's it's like a low price for the future. Yeah. Of all the things that, you know, you could think about the permutations of where Bitcoin

is going to go, it's kind of, you know, it's all relative. And people are like texting me like, you know, this week, last week, hey, is $30,000 Bitcoin, is that good? Is that the bottom? I'm like, anything in the zip code is like a gift. It's honestly a gift. On a historical basis, going backwards, and then where adoption curves and everything else is going to go forwards, it's like this unique moment in

time where it's like for sale. Some people have lost their capacity, their guts, and quite frankly, had to find liquidity and sell and do stuff. And I understand that. But from a pricing standpoint, if somebody's interested in Bitcoin, now's the time to really build a position. Because every downturn like this, I just view it as the most incredible opportunity. Because it's no longer like, is this happening? It's happening. And then if you look at like this coil of activity that just kind of been compressing on the spring,

it's all there. You know, like institutional adoption, you know, people talk about it, you know, in January, even December. By the time like an institution gets into crypto, goes through compliance, builds a fund, gets the documentation, risk managers, all this stuff. It's like July. And if it's a pension, it's like seven years. Yeah. It takes a long time.

But that doesn't mean, yeah, they're probably like, oh, maybe we should wait a couple months now because of this downturn or whatever. Something might rankle them. But they're leaning into this space now and they're building those, uh, funds, those structures, those products, uh, to get their, um, members, their investors, et cetera, exposure to this. And, and so, uh, the institutional side is happening, you know, retail side, um, you're seeing every, uh, FinTech, every stock app, every buddy adopting that's Robinhood, PayPal, you name it. And then what I love seeing is the inverse.

FTX is now offering stock. And so it's going to be an interesting dynamic between how this market evolves, both on traditional and the crypto side. And then it'll be also interesting to see how M&A plays out in this space. Because historically, tech companies are buying tech companies. But in this instance, and especially in this Dow market, you're going to see maybe a little bit more M&A. Companies can't raise money or running out of money. So a lot of acqui-hires, a lot of acquisitions. But now for crypto, you have like two massive buyers. You have Wall Street and Big

Tech. But Big Tech has much bigger balance sheets than Wall Street. So I think for the first time, we're going to see some interesting M&A where Wall Street is going to continue to be, you know, hitting their head against the wall because they're not going to be able to compete at the prices Big Tech is going to pay for these assets. There's a third one. His name's Sam. Or Sam. I mean, FTX, he jokingly says, oh, one day maybe I'll buy Goldman Sachs. But I think that they're going to continue. And the crypto industry in general is now going to buy these legacy systems that allow them access or more regulatory clarity. So again, in reverse, it's not these companies buying some access into crypto, it's crypto buying access into the bigger system.

Right on. And some of the math on when FTX was doing the stock, providing stock as a product offering. So that was like a margin zero or a negative margin, but that was okay. We're going to lose money. We're doing zero fee stocks and we make nothing on it, but our business pays for it. Exactly. And the undercurrent of the total value of a customer still works while you still benefit by saying, I could buy Apple stock or Ethereum or anything else on one platform. So I think it's kind of a genius move, but it'll be interesting to see in crypto in Wall Street to see how these two worlds connect and collide. It's not easy to see how that's going to come out. You talked about the Darwinian hand sort of of the bull market.

We are human, so it's hard to learn the lessons of the past. Every time you're like, I'm going to sell, I'm going to do it differently, and then you don't. But talking about Darwin, there's also the Darwin Awards, right? The people who get naturally selected out because they do the dumbest things. And it's really hard right now to see so many seemingly Darwin Award winners in the crypto space, right? Things are breaking left and right. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And I think, you know, again, it's good to get pressure tested in these dumb markets. Good to get some of the noise out of the way. You know, there's, you know, I get like 10 pitch decks a day from, you know, new deals and, you know, a vast majority of them are complete trash because people want to jump on decentralization or some kind of, you know, tokenizing

a hair salon kind of a thing. It's just like, you know, I saw this movie in the internet days, but, you know, a lot of the core business models are super exciting. Yes, what I'm excited about, I'm excited about a lot of things and Block, our company's building a lot towards a lot of these exciting things in crypto infrastructure, in DeFi and Metaverse. On the infrastructure side,

the other thing we're seeing with institutions is they can't really adopt a lot of crypto plumbing or infrastructure today as it is because it's, you know, a lot of the infrastructure is measured in weeks and months and maybe a couple of years of being battle tested. And it's not really conducive for them to kind of jump on new rails like that. But the kind of toe in the water is like building funds, building products so their customers could adopt a part one. Getting into this baby step of staking and saying like, I've got, you know, fiat. I'm going to melt it to crypto.

I'm going to stake that crypto, earn a yield. And that's a really important baby step for them, an engagement kind of piece for them to get into crypto and earning a yield off of that because there's like this whole, you know, it's a non-productive asset or all this other stuff. So that's a good step stone. And then ultimately the next step stone is DeFi. But DeFi needs some institutional, I think, bumpers around it. And so we're seeing a lot of DeFi platforms, including Vesper, which is thinking about how do you cater to these institutions? And that's like permission pools, which as a decentralized builder of these new platforms, I feel like it's kind of going a little backwards. But the next trillion or 10 of capital is going to come from institutions into DeFi. So you have to kind of cater to them and say, OK, so I've got this really inspired $100 plus billion DeFi

ecosystem. I'm going to take a pool and photocopy it for these institutions where they, from a KYC AML standpoint, could play together and use these lending markets and these yield markets for themselves. And then so you have these two worlds, this decentralized world where every goat herder in Ghana and taxi driver in Indonesia is using the DeFi as we know it today for yield, for leverage, and all these things. And then you're going to have this parallel system of institutions saying, OK, I want to take some of these primitives and apply them to our ecosystem. And then ultimately, how do they connect or collide down the road is going to be interesting to see. You talked about obviously offering sort of the conservative all the way

up to the aggressive. What were the conservative yields? Lower. But is it 2%? Is it 10%? Is it 5%? I'm wondering what will appeal to people when it becomes mass. People see this 8% inflation number. Do they think, oh my gosh, I need to beat 8%? Because that's probably not sustainable. Yeah, no, it's not. And some of the lower yield pools were on certain assets that were conservative, et cetera. And it was depending on the asset, but it was anywhere from 1% to 4%, which sounds anemic in the DeFi world. And then the aggressive ones obviously can go up pretty crazily high. But is your question like once retail comes in, how does this all melt down into what's the equilibrium or what's the band? Yeah, when it's not the DeFi degenerates and the normal person comes in,

is 4% actually really attractive? Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's probably, you know, attractive depending on the risk and what's in that chute and ladder that you're putting in. But they're never going to look. Yeah, but they're never going to look.

You're right. They're going to be productized. That's a true statement. But yeah, I mean, and there's going to be different products. There's going to be fixed products. There's going to be different products to be fixed products there's going to be like you know risk reward products it's a new project i'm going to you know uh put a part of my portfolio towards that because it's a higher risk but a higher reward so it's again

they're all uh all not the same and uh but again the stratification of risk, I think, is a big opportunity and kind of a required kind of dynamic for DeFi and crypto to be thinking about going forward. Is it fair to say that all of this progress is unstoppable, regardless of regulation, legislation? I mean, the United States, we obviously have a very myopic view. We believe we're the only people on the planet. But it'll just leave the United States and continue elsewhere. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think there's, well, I completely believe that. I just think there's a missed opportunity in this country not to think through this. And it's like, I've also been advocating in this space for eight years and, you know, met with CFTC, SEC, White House, Treasury, testified in front of Congress, you know, you know, lots of dinners with with senators and stuff and trying to engage and educate and really present the case for this for this space and how it does unlock a lot of amazingness for society, for institutions and everything. But you realize that DC, Beijing, Brussels runs at a particular pace, particular

cadence. And so my advice to entrepreneurs when they're building this space is build responsibly, have good legal advice, have to tokenize outside the U.S. because there's no real clear guidance here. So you see a lot of projects out of Panama, Singapore, Switzerland, BVI, et cetera. And that's an added cost. It's a hassle um if you know if we get this right i think that that whole innovation cycle much like the early internet was you know u.s based and you know a lot of the value creation and uh entrepreneurship and engineering prowess all that stuff benefited the u.s like like no tomorrow we we you know we got a gift from China banning Bitcoin mining and crypto, like all these things kind of like just aligned for the US. And so my initial assessment was like,

we're probably going to mess it up in the US in a certain way, right? I 100% agree. But this is like a US thing thing we're good catcher uppers you know we'll like say like oh that was uh we missed that we have to really kind of get back into it so we'll create like tax holidays and like all this other uh incentives to like you know bring stuff back on shore or whatever and i will ultimately figure it out because it's just too big and too massive of an opportunity for the U.S. to miss. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think that what's being proposed now is at least reasonable.

Yeah. No, I mean, and you're starting to see like better educated members of Congress. Agencies are smarter. And when you meet with these people that gravitate to crypto from any of these agencies or any members of Congress, they're some of the smartest people in those institutions, which is really impressive to see because most of Congress's average age is upper 60s. They're mostly white men, white hair, and less than 2% of them have any technical background. And so it's really hard. It's hard if we were the Orange Growers Association of Florida to make them understand certain things because the industries have very specific stuff. And then you think about all the complexities and action reactions of all the crypto-related stuff. It's a lot to kind of

handle on their brain. So I think we're doing some important things where Biden had this executive order to say, let's get ourselves organized. And that's the best thing that we could hope for. Because it's like saying like, oh, here's the prescription for CFTC. Here's a prescription for the SEC. It's really hard to actually define that now. We need better engagement with the crypto community and these agencies. But having the edict from the White House to say, figure this out, research this, get smart on it, it's of consequence, right? That was huge. And I think now everybody's trying to get their their game together on how to position themselves and how to, like, figure this out, which which is important. And I think from there, you could have better prescriptions for certain agencies and certain things to get identified, whether it's a security or not a security, whether it's a commodity. But as of late, it's awesome to see some of these senators stand up, have very thoughtful proposals, and kind of market those. Go on podcasts, go on TV,

and really kind of sell their agendas, which is impressive to see. Big change over the last eight years. Yeah, absolutely love it. And I think it's very clear, most importantly, that we are moving in the right direction. Yeah, no, exactly. But then, you know, I think it's also, you know, much like anything in tech or biology, you need certain test cases. Like, it's good to have an El Salvador, a BVI, a Switzerland, et cetera, and to have them kind of go through the first gauntlet. Because, you know, it's like the U.S. is like, you know, is like J.P. Morgan. They're not going to be the early adopters to this stuff, but they'll slowly kind of watch and kind of get on board. And it went from, you know, Jamie Dimon, J.P. Morgan, as an example, you know, this thing is, you know,

a big, massive turd to our, you know, this is super interesting to our you know this is super interesting to you know their private wealth group saying this is a better alternative than like real estate so so you know preferred a risk to ask it basically you know and i and i've been through so much of this like you know i was in singapore one time on cnbc and like the the guy in before me was the cto of the largest bank uh in singapore and then i come on and then they're like, yeah, the CTO of the largest bank in Singapore is like, Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. What do you think? You know, it's just like, you know,

he's just not, didn't spend the time to really educate himself on that. Because anybody at that level that understands this in any particular way is at least going to say, this is super interesting. We're going to investigate this. We're going to experiment with this and give it a try versus being so dismissive over it. So I think we're past the dismissive stage and people are going to be a lot more

thoughtful about this and then get more people thinking, researching, adopting, which is good. Well, it's a hopeful view and I love it. Thank you so much for presenting it. I really enjoyed it. Thanks, Scott. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you haven't already left a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please do that now.

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